Issac Heath signs a new 2-year contract with Everton

Next step to the first team squad is massive and there will probably be many ups and downs trying to get there. Keep your head up, your confidence high and try to take in everything you are taught.

Hopefully we will get to see you in the first team squad very soon.

In our search for expensive 'ready-made' players to fit into our first-team squad over the years, we seem to have overlooked that all of them had to be given a chance to step up at some stage by their first-team managers.

Why can't that be us?

Moyes isn't one to give lads like this much of a chance. Perhaps our inability to organise recruitment will work in his favour?

I think the question, more for Moyes than me, is whether he is good enough to step up.

The club has obviously seen potential, be that so he can develop to become a member of the first team squad, or he is moved on.

As for contract length, I don't have an issue with a short-term contract for academy players, which is where he will still play. Why put him on a 5 year one when we don't know if he can or will make the step up?

It gives us a chance to assess him and then renegotiate if we think he is ready for the next step.

Based on what? Hibbert? Osman? He gave them a chance.

Rooney? Coleman? He gave them a chance.

Not sure what your evidence is? Just that he didn't play other players that weren't good enough? (We haven't let many go under Moyes that shone elsewhere.)

He either shows he can make the grade, or he will be sold next summer with a year left on his deal.

Anichebe and Rodwell also.

I firmly believe that no young prospect will be "overlooked" by Moyes and staff. If he isn't given a chance, it's because he didn't earn it.

Michael doesn't mention what position he plays, but this kid seems to be on the right path, and with the right attitude. Now it's up to him to show the coaches and staff he deserves a chance at one of those many open jobs on the first team -- or at least a loan opportunity.

Dan Gosling too.

But maybe the length of contract has nothing to do with Moyes — "what if" it's decided by our new expert contracts people? Or the player himself? Or the U-21s coach? Or our finance people?

Moyes is obviously giving him a chance to see what he can do if he's been training with the first team and has had him on the bench.

Wasn't Moyes responsible for playing the two youngest first team players in the history of the club?

I read somewhere that if an individual is under 23, then the club is entitled to a development fee if the player moves on having been offered a contract extension?

In his time, I don't remember anyone leaving and making waves elsewhere? I think the big problem now is getting the talent in the first place. The likes of Man City just hoover up players with promise.

Moving to Belgium etc, I think you get nothing.

Jose Baxter was offered a new contract by Moyes which saw his wages cut by 50% — Baxter let him know what he could do with contract by dropping out of football until Alan Stubbs got him back in the game and James Vaughan was given his debut when Everton were 3-0 up with twenty minutes to go when he scored that record breaking goal, injuries spoiled James in a way but ultimately James wasn’t good enough—Anichebe got as much stick off the crowd as praise— Rodwell looked like he could become a very good player but in the end he flopped although the £12- 15M we got off City helped Thingy to keep hold of his train set a lot longer so I fear for Harrison Armstrong getting a run in the squad with Moyes.

There's always a call at some point in every season to 'play the kids'. The reality is the vast majority are just not good enough.

If Harrison Armstrong is good enough, Moyes will give him an opportunity?

But, for some, why waste any opportunity to have a go at the manager hey

Vaughan, Gosling and Baxter did not feature regularly in the first team.

Rooney was a generational talent so his selection was a no-brainer.

You are all making Mike Allison's point for him, as that is a poor record.

The manager will always defer to caution when selecting youth v experience.

If he does as well as he has done since rejoining then he will be praised. But we didn't all get our memories erased and recall his last tenure perfectly well.

Hopefully, he is older, wiser and braver.

Since Moyes left has progression from there improved? Probably similar? Having watched the U21s quite frequently the last couple of years, I haven't seen many (if any) who are ready to step up.

I was hugely frustrated by Moyes in the latter years of his first spell, but don't think it fair to say he didn't give youngsters a chance, when he did. Its just that they ultimately didn't have the quality.

I don't think that progression has improved since Moyes left, and I would also say that David Moyes benefited from more young talent coming through than later managers.

I know it could be argued that it is on the players to prove themselves, but they also need commitment from the manager in terms of selection in their preferred position over a period of time.

Hope he gets a good loan.

Naturally, like any manager / head coach, he will be cautious about introducing young players.

There is a deeper perspective to this. Are the academy players good enough? We haven't had many in recent decades.

Some of the names mentioned.

Rooney was a freak of footballing nature. Barkley showed glimpses of how good he could have been, but couldn't do it consistently. That's followed him throughout his career. Cadamarteri was a flash in the pan who faded quickly. Yes, James Vaughn burst on the scene, but was constantly blighted by injuries.

As for Rodwell, and this is just my take, but I often thought he might have been better as a sweeper or centre back. Forgetting injuries, I often think he often looked disinterested when playing football.

If my memory serves, I remember his best performance was against Manchester City when he was man-marking one of their midfielders for about an hour maybe? Then we changed the tactics and City opened us up.

Are the players good enough to play or do they need to play to be good enough? It's a tough nut to crack.

My major problem with Moyes first spell was his lack of ambition, especially when I thought we had a team that could push on, if allowed to be more expansive.

Personally, I find it hard to be too critical of his handling of young players, as none of them have been particularly successful elsewhere under other managers.

The one that has got away in the past 10 years is Antonee Robinson, but I think he left after Moyes?

I'm also convinced that we just don't have the level of talent coming though. I could go into a rant about the Academy system and the churning up and spitting out of players. Something I've experienced first hand in youth football.

I’m pleased you remember the first time he was here. I remember the 4th5th6th7th placed finishes.

How many youth players during Moyes tenure who he didn’t play went on to bigger things?

Fact is Man City, Liverpool, Man U snap up the better prospects and we’re left with the lesser players

The clubs with the better youth programmes have usually bought these players at 14-18.

The underlying players coming out of academies that have come through at 7-11 is pitiful for the amount of coaching any of these clubs have put in.

He did well to start with, stabilised us and generally had us finish in good positions, but couldn't take us further.

There were also a few 15th, 17th and 11th finishes smattered in-between.

The relationship is complex. Speaking for myself, he came in, did what was needed but couldn't push us on when it mattered. Froze on the big stage.

To understand some of the sentiment amongst a lot of Evertonians, you have to acknowledge the other factors.

His close relationship with a deeply unpopular former owner / Chairman never sat comfortably with many. The double act of lowering expectations.

Missed opportunities with Wigan in the FA Cup at Goodison standing out. Talk about a rabbit caught in the headlights, being schooled by Martinez, who went on to win the trophy.

The semi-final against Liverpool, when we had them for the taking, but somehow decided to defend a 1 - 0 lead and lost.

And the manner in which he left the club. Not the fact that he took the opportunity to join Manchester United as I don't think their are many who would have denied him that. But the way he conducted himself was unsavoury. He knew and we knew from the January, that he was going, but he continued to deny it.

Anyway. Water under the bridge now and he can be judged on what he achieves next season.

I hope that explains why there is still some residual caution over Moyers Ryan.

But two that spring to mind are Eric Dier, who went on to win trophies with Tottenham and Bayern. And Mustafi, who we brought into the academy, but never featured in the first team.

He won a couple of FA Cups with Arsenal and managed to bag himself a World Cup winners medal with Germany.

I'll caveat that it's all judgemental and you can never really tell.

Mustafi threw a fit when he was a teenager not getting game time ahead of Jagielka, Lescott and Yobo.

Just how thin the squad will be is an uncomfortable situation that I hope changes before the season starts, if not we are likely to see a few youngsters blooded but only as a last resort.

Mustafi wasn’t getting in ahead of jags Les Scott

People develop at different rates

He was in situ for 9 games. Were you expecting a title push in those 9 games perhaps?

Give the impression of a balanced write up, but underneath it ain't.

They do. Those of us who have coached at youth level appreciate that.

Your question was who he didn't play who went on to bigger and better things. I gave two examples, which I didn't need to Google as I remembered them.

I'm sure Moyes, like any manager will give some one good enough a chance. He is probably just a bit more cautious than others, and we have to acknowledge that our academy hasn't really been setting the world alight of late.

Moyes knew and we knew from the January, that he was going, but he continued to deny it.

I wish you had been on ToffeeWeb at that time because nobody on here back then had a scooby. In fact the idea that any of the "top" teams would come in for Moyes, never mind the most successful team of that era, was treated with derision.

Hard to forget.

Harrison Armstrong at Derby when they were being relegated
Lewis Dobbin - 1 goal in 13 starts at Derby
Tom Cannon - 8 in 19 for PNE and then sold immediately (PSR?)
Ellis Simms - 7 in 14 for Sunderland and then sold (another PSR victim?)
and I could go on but who has starred in the Championship that has then said, he is now ready for the Everton 1st team and not another Championship club - or even a Championship club that will be challenging for promotion?

The last one I remember is Leon Osman whose loan at the age of 23 finally made it.

And before we moan too much - remember Matthew Pennington and Luke Garbutt. One was 26 and the other 27 when their U23 contracts finished. Two years seems sensible. No point in keeping a player who is not going to play for Everton's PL side or command a decent fee.

Kevin, Moyes will give youth a chance if he thinks they are good enough and he can trust them. The underlying problem is what the academy has, in the main, been producing over recent years.

And at the top flight of football, the stakes are high.

Okay, not an academy player, but he put trust in Jake O'Brien as soon as he came in. Although I believe Dyche gets the credit for selecting him in the FA Cup match before being relieved of his duties the same day as he apparently picked the team.

I know those stories circulated after the event but you suggested in your earlier post that it was common knowledge beforehand which I don't believe it was.

I wish you had been on ToffeeWeb at that time because nobody on here back then had a scooby.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your claim here but I think from January 2013 onwards until the end of the season, there was massive speculation on ToffeeWeb about what exactly Moyes was up to with his protracted contract dithering.

Here's just one example, from February 2013:

Moyes puts off contract decision — with 253 comments from those who didn't have a scooby.

We’ve had plenty of winless years.

What is it 5 winning seasons in nearly 70 years?

😂 even Leicester have won the title more recent than Everton.

Plenty more winless season’s coming up for you to enjoy. ☺️

I'll have a read at that later but if there's a post on there even speculating that Moyes is going to United... I'll eat Andy Crook's other hat.

Most managers tend to get 3-4 years maximum without winning a trophy - certainly not 11 years. Even trophy winning Everton managers like Catterick, Kendall and Royle did not have that treatment.

David Moyes will certainly not have the same luxury with TFG, so hopefully he can win something.

I hope your prediction is wrong and you along with others get to enjoy winning seasons, starting next season.

Welcome to TFG land

What I gleaned from scrolling through is that Moyes was in a minority of perhaps one who thought he would get a sniff at a top Premier League club. Even Sam Hoare considered it unlikely.

What does come across is that a point of mutual apathy and dissatisfaction with the prospect of him extending his stay had been reached.

Interesting, to me, is that the widespread disenchantment of contributors with his achievement at Everton, several of whom are consistent in articulating the same now, is not matched by similar representation from his 2025 support base.

"What I gleaned from scrolling through is that Moyes was in a minority of perhaps one who thought he would get a sniff at a top PL club."

I also scrolled through it and as you say not many saw Moyes getting a top job never mind the United gig.

Strange when you think Danny recalls that we all knew from January 2013 that Moyes was off to United.

We seem as far away as any time winning a League Cup never mind the Premier League!

It's an exclusive offer to valued members! Others must fork out a tenner. Valued members are now valuable members.

When I first saw that I thought they meant the UK Conference League.

All of us only care about Everton. It's why I can relax watching international football as it doesn't bother me.

Brendan, it may have been Liverpool street gossip and match day chat, but it was fairly known discussions were going on for months.

Ferguson is subsequently quoted as telling Moyes not to tell anyone, maybe his wife, that he would be the next Manchester United manager.

He got his chance. Flopped big time, for which there could have been a number of reasons, especially when you're following Sir Alex. It didn't go well in Spain, relegated with Sunderland. A couple of stints with West Ham and won a trophy, but seemed to remain unpopular with the Irons supporters.

He's had a honeymoon period with us since returning and get the credit deserved. Now the real work starts. I hope he succeeds, with the backing of the ownership and board.

Definitely an interesting look back at the views from 12 years ago. People should look back at the News Archive on ToffeeWeb more often - makes for great reading.

I wasn't on ToffeeWeb then but would have been giving Moyes plenty of stick then, mind you , got an earful off me in the Echo every so often off me with a few letters written to him as well with my name, adress and telephone number.

He replied now and again but then he stopped and I read that he was getting so many letters they were read by a some other people and then handed on to him to read.

I reasoned that he only got the complimentary ones so I started send him letters in a brown envelope marked private and confidential and I got some replies back!

The situation is he's built up a huge amount of goodwill after an outstanding half season, and I think most fans realise we are still in a very tricky situation with an uneven squad, and not much money to rectify things.

What I mean, is now he gets judged over a full season. Hopefully another one as it means we've done well.

In terms of money, he's been backed so far, so we'll have to see what the owners decide.

I think I must have mellowed since then because I can't imagine getting as worked up about it these days. As Kevin says, he has built up an enormous amount of goodwill and I am feeling optimistic.

Never did I think we would go backwards and have back-to-back relegation battles.

Yes, I recognised some of the current posters. Had a real aww moment when I spotted a post from Harold Matthews.

That’s great and so interesting that you wrote to David Moyes and even got responses. Those were the days before social media took hold, when the art of letter writing was still alive. It's such a lost art now. I think you should start writing to him again, just for old times’ sake!

It reminded me of my late Dad, who was always writing letters much to my frustration. It’s even become a bit of a family saying 'You know what, I’m going to write a letter'.

Born in 1933, he somehow knew one of our former players, Jack Humphreys, and his family. I think my Dad knew him as John. The connection, I assume, came from my Dad attending a primary school in Llandudno, where Jack’s father was I think the headmaster. In the late '40s, my Dad claimed to have gone to Goodison several times to meet Jack after training, along with a bunch of mates. Apparently, they’d sometimes go for a pint in the Winslow and even have a kickabout in a room above the pub. Not entirely sure how much of that is true - the timeline's a bit vague, especially age-wise!

Anyway, my Dad often quoted that same headmaster, who must’ve instilled in him the belief that if you want something done, write to the person at the top. So, fast forward to the mid-70s. On two occasions when he wasn’t happy with how the club was being run, he wrote to the chairman to express his dissatisfaction with the manager and asked for action. Within about two weeks of each letter, though he never received a reply which would’ve really annoyed him, both managers were sacked. The managers were Billy Bingham and Gordon Lee. I did suggest he stop writing after that!

I also hadn’t realised that Gerry Humphreys, who my Dad often used to talk about, was the same one who played for us in the late 1960s.

Anyway, back to the thread, good luck to Isaac, interesting to see he's a boyhood fan of Leeds United but ended up with us.

Brendan, 47, I specifically looked at Michael's link. Was a bit worried for you about having to eat the hat but seems you are safe. :)

The answer is: very few.

It's a bit like the complaints against Dyche for not playing Simms (Coventry subsitute), Cannon (Sheffield United), Ebere (good for U18s, not for u21s), Warrington (Leyton Orient), Dixon (Stockport County) and Sherif (5 in 20 for the U21s).

There's just a massive over-estimation of the quality of these players - possibly stemming from a massive over-estimation of the quality of u21s football (which is a very poor standard - worse than the top levels of non-league).

I wish all of these players very well and hope they have very good careers in football like predecessors like Lundstram, Ledson, Dowell, Kenny, Forshaw, Bidwell, Connolly etc etc. But fundamentally all Everton managers for the last 20 odd years have always selected young / academy players who merit it.

The only "one who got away" is Robinson. He left because at the time he wasn't going to get games at Everton with a club legend and French international ahead of him.

Gerry was only an average footballer but I wrote on ToffeeWeb he scored one of the best goals I had seen when Gerry scored a cracker for Everton in a 3-0 win over Sheffield Wed. and a few Everton fans remembered that goal.

I’ve wrote a few letters mostly concerning football, one was to the Duke of Edinburgh in 1966 and I wrote to him about him going on a tour of Australia when Everton were playing the FA cup, Inasked if there was any chance of having his ticket for the game seeing as he wouldn’t be using it- got a reply off his secretary which came at the beginning of June, good job there wasn’t a ticket in the envelope as he knocked me back, didn’t matter as I wrote to plenty of people asking for a ticket and got one back off Tom Finney of PNE and England fame and there was a ticket in it, I’d made a point of recognising him at the Everton v Man. Unt. semi final at Bolton and made a real fuss of him, genuine by the way, because he was truly great footballer.

I did the same in 1968 and got another ticket but that story is for another day, it did prove though that the pen is mightier than the sword.

Patrick Murphy is still going or he was a couple of years ago when I met him in The Harlech,

I asked him why he wasn't on ToffeeWeb and he said he was and Patrick Murphy was one of the aliases he used so he could be anyone on here.

I think he called in to see Johnny Mac who he was some relation to.

I've often wondered whether Kev might be here as well under an occasional nom de plume. Fun guy. And a snappy dresser!

Derby County didn't get relegated last season when Harrison Armstrong was there on loan. In fac,t according to a couple of match-going Derby fans I know, he was excellent and one of the main reasons they managed to stay up. They would love him back on loan there again next season.

Interesting to see both Braiden Graham and Harrison Armstrong there.

It doesn't always work out though of course, such as Keiron Dowell. He was truly outstanding one pre season but never made it with us did he. Talent isn't enough without the extra fight and spirit to give everything in defence as well as attack for a team like ours hey. May the lads give their all and be good enough.

What a huge boost to the team it would be if they could break into the first team and do well.

It’s still a great opportunity for them though and would be fantastic if they make the most of it.

And then Whisky-Nose selected him.

He must have been staggered, delighted and totally compliant to instructions given to him by WN & Kenwright thereafter. He served himself above all else, including us lot.

But now he's back.

I therefore hope that he can now reveal to the world in general an ability, for once, to emulate by trophy winning what the few other managers with anywhere close to his length of self-service as a manager has been for any other club - all of whom won trophies aplenty - unlike him.

After all, he's a multi-millionaire so what else has he got left to achieve beyond winning a trophy - or is he still content to merely enrich himself as OUR club blunders on to even more mediocrity such as we had under him and beyond?

I hope Friedkin shares my opinion.

I knew I was safe... the very thought of Andy Crooks having two hats!

Don will be on about Duncan Ferguson next, his other pet hate.

I remember every time reading WSAG there would be an article written by Don slagging Ferguson off.

"Brendan, it may have been Liverpool street gossip and match day chat, but it was fairly known discussions were going on for months."

You keep repeating that Danny but avoiding the fact that whilst it was "well known"...it wasn't well known enough to make it's way onto ToffeeWeb?

I'll go out on another limb and say it wasn't flagged up on GOT, Blue Kipper or any of the other Everton fan sites either.

And even on this thread or any of the others (and there have been many) discussing Moyes departure... nobody other than you Danny

To those idolising Duncan Disorderly I say watch his video clips. He now admits he was as a player for us, in my words, a twat.

And I agree with him.

But that’s not going to happen whatever manager is in charge.

Unless a state like Qatar takes over the club

In SAFs book he says he first started thinking about retirement at Christmas (I think when his wife's sister died?) and told the United board in February. It was in the March that they decided Moyes should be anointed as The Chosen One.

Moyes immediately told Chairman Bill and offered to resign but Chairman Bill would have none of it.

If you are of the generation who have not really seen us win trophies, then I understand the attraction of the argument that success will only come with a big increase in net investment over years. I actually admire Everton fans who are under 40 the most as their commitment is incredible.

Those of us who are lucky enough to see us win trophies know what led to success - strategy, structure, standards and mindset. We can win a domestic cup next season with those in place and some improvement to the squad, although I agree sustained progress in the league takes longer.

Personally, give me an FA or EFL Cup win any day over magnificent 7th every year.

A domestic cup win puts the club into Europe, allows us to attract better players and breeds confidence.

Bill sold to a complete buffoon who doesn't get criticised anywhere nearly enough for nearly ruining the club and almost sending us into footballing obscurity with his blind recklessness. Bill is no longer with us and alot has happened since. Regardless of your views, it was quite a long time ago now when he was in charge.

I also don't get the point in dredging over anything Moyes related from his first tenure. That was also a long time ago, he is a different manager now, a different man and we are a different club. Before anyone jumps on that I mean the landscape of the club is different, not the DNA.

Let's try to at least keep our minds in the now and on the future. As a cognitive behavioural therapist a quote we use sometimes springs to mind with some of you on TW (mention no names!): "90% of what you think today, you'll think again tomorrow". Referring to the endless feedback loops and narratives we get stuck in.

Free your minds...learn to let go...think in the now. With that comes growth mentality and THAT is what I believe TFG are bringing. To me they are a breath of fresh air and I love the quiet way they go about their business.

In reference to the debate above, ultimately we want to be top 4 AND competing for the cups. The route for both is the same. Small but clear incremental and positive steps forwards, building on before and with one eye on the future. Clever recruitment, top down culture change, communication and precision planning! It will and should take a long time.

Telling other posters what they can think, do, feel or write. Interesting approach for a “cognitive behavioural therapist”.

Is that what you do in your sessions?

Steve @88, I too admire those young supporters and their determination to keep going, despite having seen nothing other than a few semi-finals and an FA Cup final defeat. I will always call them out in a match report.

Other Steve @91. Final word on the subject. The points I raised much earlier in this thread were not necessarily all of what I think. I have my own thoughts. They are what fellow Evertonians have expressed in discussion, not what I've read on the internet.

And I did close by saying water under the bridge and that I hope our "new" manager brings us success, which I've said on countless subjects.

End of topic for me.

I hear you though Steve and perhaps upon reflection I should have had more coffee before writing that. My wording wasn’t great and I was definitely projecting my frustration.

I feel that we as a club would benefit hugely from a collective recalibration. BMD brings us a real opportunity to do that, a change of mindset and a chance to reset to help move forwards.

As we move into the new stadium with hopefully a fresh squad I do question the point behind the “dithering Dave” and “boys pen Bill” posts. We need to move on, we have to! It frustrates me when we make steps forward only to hear the same old moaning.

The exact situation we find ourselves in now.

We need better players to win games, but we don't have the money to buy them.

It can be reminiscing about the teams and players of the 60s. Despite not winning anything, some have fond memories of going to the match in the 70s. Then there is the brief fabulous period in the 80s. Younger supporters have their idols from the 90s and 2000s, sadly, not much to shout about unless some were old enough to witness our last trophy. Those of a more mature age can even recall some of the great players of the 50s, the last time we were relegated.

Then there are the outstanding historical articles that appear on here meticulously researched by the likes of Rob Sawyer and Becky Tallentire. The fine work done by the Everton Heritage Society, now moving from St Lukes to a new location across from BMD. The sterling work from the 1878s with their coordinated banner displays covering all generations.

It hasn't always been plain sailing with some of our most successful managers. If my history, and this is not memory (before my time) is correct, wasn't Harry Catterick met by a group of angry Evertonians for dropping Alex Young? And then near dismay for selling Alan Ball, although apparently there were reasons for that.

Howard Kendall was taking a lot of stick and on the brink before Colin Harvey helped him turn the good ship Everton around.

I don't like calling it living in the past, more respecting our history and heritage.

Anyway, I'm looking to the future, starting with the trip to Accrington Stanley next Tuesday evening followed by Blackburn on Saturday.

We had to re-sign Keane and Coleman FFS, not a sign that we have a lot of cash to buy Euro quality players.

And even Barry, our major outlay to date is not going to start and set the EPL on fire right away. If he's the untried standard of player at that money (£27 million was it?) what price tried and tested Euro experienced players?

Let's hope TFG have learned a lot of Chairman Bill's history and even more of John Moores.

And regarding post #95, I would point out that neither you nor anyone else here has the slightest idea that we don't have the money to buy players. Only TFG knows what they can afford, and we'll find out what that budget is over time.

Steve #91, I don't find your post at all arrogant. Just highly sensible. I agree with it all. (Of course, I'm sometimes considered a bit arrogant myself!)

This isn't about relationships, its about risk. Its about trusting the management of a team not to make the same mistakes of old. You say David Moyes isn't the same man he was, perfectly true, but his underlying subsequent management performances are not stellar. His style is undoubtably better than SD but hardly a Pep.. Since leaving us after 11 years, he has had 5 appointments if you include 4 of which lasted a season each (roughly) with his final stint at West Ham for approx 5 years. In the end despite winning a European trophy, he is moved on again.

I was one who suggested he replace Dyche back in November because it was worth the risk in comparison to Dyche. Moyes gets more out of a team, knows the club, has managed on a shoe string, great. But that was Everton of old, the Everton of the future must change approach, a different dynamic.

Learn from the past, look to the future, then you can truly let go of the past and consign it to history.

PS Mike I agree, TFG will pay absolutely no attention to previous owners stuff ups nor should they (thank god) but I doubt they will give anything like the latitude Moyes once had..

Mike 101 There is a danger with Tfg. I don't like the multi ownership model but who am I.
If at some point Tfg turn us around and we do threaten a European spot it's decision time if they want us or European regulars Roma to compete. That in itself isn't a sporting decision it's a money decision and with all due respect USA ownership of anything is driven by making money.

Football is very tribal, I don't recall anyone outside of our club supporting us during the points deductions or supporting Wolves effort to get rid of var.

Palace qualified for Europe for the first time in their history and have promptly been demoted out of a European competition and Forrest are on the verge of suing them for the dual ownership situation.

Football is eating itself, greed has taken over from sport. Accountancy skills are valued more than football skills.

Sorry I have digressed.

And while we don't know how much is in the kitty do you really think if there's a lot we would have re-signed Keane and Coleman instead of getting in ready made replacements?

Tells me there's a limited budget and we need how many replacements?

Oh and how much of that $11 billion has been generated by Roma? Or rather, how much are Roma losing each year?

In the last 5 years, Moyes saved West Ham from relegation, moved them up to the European spots consistently, and ended by winning a European trophy. What would 'stellar' look like, winning the league?

Rob, I find it puzzling that anyone would embrace being back on the football merry-go-round after the last 10 years we've had. If Moyes is here for the next 3 years and we're not relegated, I'd bet my hat we are in a much better place than now.

But I'd not be wanting to sack him if next season he finishes 13th. We need some stability.

Going into the season with Nathan Patterson, Seamus Coleman and a centre back as your choices at RB, only one left back, no right wingers just won’t cut it.

Football always reflects life, and it can have only been greed, that stopped a lot of clubs voting to do away with VAR, mate.

Manchester City ~720 Dominates due to consistent success and global commercial reach
Manchester United ~660 Strong brand, commercial deals, and matchday income
Liverpool ~620 High broadcast and commercial revenue
Arsenal ~540 Boosted by Champions League return
Tottenham Hotspur ~520 Strong matchday and commercial revenue
Chelsea ~500 Despite on-pitch struggles, commercial deals

Everton 185

How on earth do you consistently compete with these clubs?

We lost at home on the opening day to Fulham, I think and when the cross went past Patterson, who was positioned towards the middle of his goal, the player at the back post had loads of time because James Garner, who was playing right midfield that day, was doing nothing to help his partner at right back, who was over covering his centre backs!

I agree with Chris K@73, (except the bit about Iwobi) which shows me that we all see different things in different players.

I wonder how much more money will be generated by moving to Bramley Moore?

I know you know this but the stadium helps - and TFG seem keen to improve our commercial position. All vital.

Realistically we can compete within a 3 to 5 year period - at least to the point Villa have done recently (although is it now starting to fall apart?)

That means Champions League runs and a sniff of domestic cup trophies (which we are overdue for).

Sourcing high quality players in a more sophisticated way will help too. That also seems to be on the TFG agenda too.

After David Moyes left Everton in 2013, the club experienced a rollercoaster of league finishes under various managers. Here's a breakdown of their Premier League positions from 2013–14 onward:

Season Manager(s) Final Position
2013–14 Roberto Martínez 5th
2014–15 Roberto Martínez 11th
2015–16 Martínez / Unsworth 11th
2016–17 Ronald Koeman 7th
2017–18 Koeman / Allardyce 8th
2018–19 Marco Silva 8th
2019–20 Silva / Ancelotti 12th
2020–21 Carlo Ancelotti 10th
2021–22 Rafael Benítez / Lampard 16th
2022–23 Frank Lampard / Dyche 17th
2023–24 Sean Dyche 15th
2024–25 Dyche / Moyes (returned) 13th

Robert, I agree with your assessment. I always tend to look a 1-3-5 model when I'm planning a project at work.

From an Everton perspective:

Season 1: Challenge for a domestic trophy and qualify for Europe. Sorry, I'm impatient.

By season 3: Challenging for Champions League qualification and giving the title a shot.

Season 5: In the Champions League and pushing for the title.

I'd obviously be more than delighted if we shift some of that forward in the cycle.

I had a quick look at Newcastle. 5 years ago, they finished in the same position we did last season. They've since won a trophy and qualified for Champions League.

In terms of increased revenue, I can't put a figure on it, but already, there are steps that have been taken:

1. Season tickets are more expensive and the capacity has increased.

2. Membership has been split into 2 tiers, with the higher plus one being £60 compared to the previous one tier system at £35.

3. Increased corporate facilities and restaurants at £600 per person per home fixture.

4. More facilities. As I understand, they will remain open to encourage supporters to stay in the ground after the match. No more closing the shutters at half time and being told I'm too late to get served. Call it the Tottenham model.

5. A very minor one, but the food trucks on the plaza. Unlike the chippies and fast food eateries around Goodison, they will be paying a premium to Everton for their pitch.

6. Other events, sporting and concerts. We already have the Rugby later this year and the Euros. More will follow.

I'm sure there are others that will be considered as our new stadium becomes to go-to venue in the north west.

I'm not saying it will double, certainly not initially, but I would imagine we'll be closer to the £300m mark in the early days.

"Moyes saved West Ham from relegation, moved them up to the European spots consistently,"

Didn't he also do that with another team he managed? Can't remember who now, like a lot of their supporters.

Danny, that is indeed impatient! a very high bar. have you though had the same demands of our previous managers? if so, I ca 't immediately recall you asking for people to be sacked when none of them cleared this bar.

with regard to the money raised by the new ground, I fear the Friedkins may be in for an unpleasant shock. Most Everton fans just don't have the revenue to spend the day at BMD spending like a drunken sailor like I'm sure happens at WHL. Yes there'll be the extra tickets sold, an extra ten thousand a game, nice but hardly game changing. there is then the commercial aspects, but why should Vodafone or whomever be beating a frantic path to our door, when they've got the 'Shite and the Mancs on their doorstep?

However, we have to look forwards and Moyes Mk II is a different manager. Any talk of him not being here, shouldn't be here or "will get the push in 18 months" are surely redundant and pointless if he had us playing well and Top 8 in the form table? Utterly pointless to contest it and surely remiss to not acknowledge the achievement.

Mike G @ 101 thanks for saying that but I think Steve was right to pull me up to an extent, I could have worded things better. Maybe I am stuck in the loop of finding the negativity tiresome? 🤪

After 40 years has passed since we won the league and a European trophy. I am very restless mate!!

I've spent a lot of that time convincing my 30-year-old son that it will come back.

It's a good point about the traditional Everton support base Kevin. But I suspect TFG's strategy will be to build the brand and attract a different type of supporter to complement our very loyal existing Evertonians. It won't happen overnight, but to me it seems clear, that they are changing the whole outlook of the club.

Long overdue.

Did Danny ask for Carlo Ancelotti to be sacked going by his above criteria?

But then interest payments need to be capitalised in the accounts as soon as we start playing in the new stadium

So that’s circa 25m out of that 40m

Maybe from 190ish to 240-250m. At a push

Koeman always seemed like he needed convincing to come to Everton in the first place and that transpired into his tenure.

I think the only one I did was Sam Allardyce. But I was appalled when we appointed him and never took to it.

Beniitez? I didn't need to say anything. The majority around me were saying it.

Dyche, I respected what he had done previously, but last season, it was obvious that change was needed, as he increasingly ran out of ideas. I don't think I got personal about him though.

I think like Most Everton managers of late, when they realise what they had stepped into, the reality kicked in. Carlo certainly saw that and bailed out.

Let's hope there are more stable grounds for Moyes, however long he is here for.

Ryan, read my last paragraph. I said "closer to" £300m, not actually £300m. Just a wet finger in the air. Either way it will increase.

I agree Danny, he couldn't hide his ambivalence towards the club and fans and I couldn't stand him for that.

I am a finance person and now I understand why I have as little money as I do and Moshiri had as much as he did, because I for sure would have kept a better handle on my money if I had £1B to spend at Everton.

Surprised Moshiri chased Koeman to the extent he did, despite Koeman's apparent indifference. Even more surprised that Koeman paid what he did for Klaassen with no apparent competition.

A spending spree we never recovered from. Disastrous.

We are going from 1,300 to 5,500 at the new stadium. They do not reveal the numbers in each of the 4 offerings but assume the lowest price - it still produces £53m of revenue per season, so more likely to be closer to £100m.

Id be surprised if the new stadium increases gate receipts and other activities by 80 million.

I hope it does but just can’t see that much of an increase.

If it does then we must have £100m to spend this summer

His first spell came when we were relegation fodder, and he achieved an incredible turn around to get us in Europe despite the lack of money and working under Kenwright's dictatorship. We also had a couple of cup finals thrown in.

He left and we declined never to reach the same heady heights apart from the first season under Martinez who had inherited Moyes defensive stability but soon dismantled it.

Back to appointment number two when we looked certainties to be in the relegation picture until 12 games later, we find ourselves almost mid table with a squad most of us pictured as Championship level.

I admit I thought we could and should have done better than Moyes in this current appointment and it still rankles about the way he left and pictured us as inferior to Man Utd but we have to give credit where its due IMO.

We're playing in a giant cash machine.

We will need some good players at that prices.

People are not paying £600 to watch Nathan Patterson getting skinned for 60 mins because he gets dragged off

Say someone bought a hospitality package for £2k a season.

That’s £111 a match and not £500 a match

How many of the 5,500 seats are priced at £500 a match?

My club season ticket was £1200, and that only comes with a tenner food & beverage credit per match...

18 x £500 is £9k

Top ticket £995 a piece

Package 5 of packages 5
Seat Unique Enclosure Experience - £3999 per person: What's included?

Exclusive 4-guest enclosure with cinematic heated reclining seats and personal screens
Prime West Stand Level 1 location, closer to the pitch than traditional boxes
Private ‘Behind The Scenes’ stadium tour
Intimate meet and greet with an Everton First Team player
Pre- and post-match formal 4 course dining in the Navigator restaurant with modern European cuisine
Complimentary bar with select beer, wine, and soft drinks
Matchday programme included
One car parking space per 4 guests
Please note that due to TV scheduling, fixture dates and times are subject to change
E-tickets issued ~4 days before kickoff
Link

The cheapest I've seen is Burnley at £300. The most expensive, Liverpool. But all the prices are listed as "from", so that's the starting price depending on the package selected.

It won't affect me, but it will generate a lot more revenue than what the club has done in this area in the past.

I suppose you can go back to the principle of what clubs have been doing for years with normal tickets. Cat A, Cat B and Cat C fixtures, with the prices changing accordingly.

Reclinging seats at a football match? That is lost on me. I spend half the match standing and at away matches, no-one sits down at all.

However, the world is full of money extraction machines, which move cash from many pockets into one large bag. I suspect we will see much evidence of this over the next few years, when the profile of our support will change markedly.

Such a strategy may possibly bring about some relative success. But there is a grave danger, that the new consumers will not have the passion of the people who have been the one constant, the outstanding force of resistance, that has kept our Club alive over the past 30 years.

‘ I spoke to one of the Everton owners’ and Jim White said

‘‘ you spoke to Farhad Moshiri’ and Textor said again ‘I spoke to one of the Everton owners’ with a smile on his face (and he wasn’t talking about TFG)

I wonder who that was

Danny, the blurb accompanying the announcement claims it's to create "an authentic armchair experience"

£4,000 quid to sit in an armchair and watch the match on a telly, and not even a big screen at that.

I hope it's only the away fans that are buying those seats.

Inevitably, the club is going to feel different and the experience will feel different. I know it's only Tai Pan, but last time out, I thought to myself how different it was having a sit down bite to eat, being waited on, with David James and his party on the table next to us. A far cry from queuing outside the Goodison Supper Bar or Blue Dragon!!

We needed change. We missed the boat years ago and have fallen behind other clubs in terms of generating revenue, building a more global brand and attracting new supporters. I'm all for that.

But, like what I think you are both saying, I hope we manage to balance that and don't completely dismiss the traditional match going fan base. We don't need to look far to see that.

What I also love is
Complimentary bar with select beer, wine, and soft drinks and One car parking space per 4 guests.

OK, so 3 of us are going to make use of this and have four glasses of wine and be well over the limit, but one of us (probably the host who is paying for the other 3) will just have soft drinks. Mind you, if you are paying £16,000 then I think the cost of driver to sit in the car for the match will not be much in comparison.

Hopefully there won't come a time in the future when we look back at the good times of Chairman Bill's reign in that regard.

As for realism and being patient. I can see that point of view from those who air it, I really can.

The only counter I have is that we've been patient for over 30 years, fast approaching 40.

I want us to move fast. I'm sick of waiting.

That's why I did say I hope we strike a balance and look after the traditional support base. We'll have to, certainly early doors, but we should be looking to expand.

We've seen it a Brighton with Japanese supporters. Tottenham with South Koreans. They may only be there once or twice, but certainly manage to spend a lot on merchandise. Yes they'll probably be gone when the players they have from those respective countries depart.

Global reach isn't a bad thing. We already have a healthy support base in the US and Ireland. I think the new owners will want to build on that.