World Cup: First Semi-Final

A rare occasion. I could make a case for either of these two teams.

I want both Modric and Messi to win a World Cup. Both deserve it.

I want the staggering number of Argentinians who have sold everything to be at these finals to be rewarded. I want the brilliant Gvardiol to live up to his billing of being one of the world's top talent at the age of 20.

I'll get myself a bevy in the certain knowledge that I will be pleased for the winners.... whoever they are!

I like the sentiments, Darren.

My observations are slightly less poignant… Modric up close looks like a cross between Jesus Christ and Luke Chadwick. And possibly even a bit of “Gareth from The Office” about him.

Pitch is a mud-pit – like a 1980s high school rugby field.

How was that a penalty?

Robert - that's a 100% penalty all day.

Chipped, wipes out the attacker, didn't get the ball.

The real question is how in the world were the two Croatian centre-backs roasted so badly – split like a piece of firewood – on a Route 1 ball????

Horrific defending, very un-Croatia like!

Holy shit — what a goal! WOW!!!!

It's like Everton are in the semi-final

Pat, I'm guessing Croatia = Everton?

Well, if Argentina win, it will be even funnier to see them lose on Sunday.

Kieran -

What makes you think Morrocco will beat Argentina? 😜

Yes Jamie 😉

Jamie,

They're saying the final match is to be reffed by the ref from the England game, so anything's possible.

The comeback Kings are going to have to stage one hell of a comeback here.

Argentina have one foot in the final… but they still need to get the other one there.

I'm still glued.

I'm unsure if that was a penalty, there's nowhere for the keeper to go for one. And Alvarez runs into him. What else can the keeper do in that situation?

Jason,

If the keeper get to the ball first, then yes. But he didn't – wasn't even close, so it's gotta be a penalty!

Simply brilliant.

What Tony said.

Mesmerising stuff from Messi... yet again.

I've said it before. He can still tear the teams apart.

Getting on but still producing magic spells well worth waiting for.

Messi is unbelievable.

Up there with the greats.

The Argentine Kevin Sheedy.

Okay, that's tongue-in-cheek!

Glad to see Messi in a position to let the football talk while the other guy is probably arranging a Piers Morgan rehab show.

Have to admit I quite like the idea of Messi winning a World Cup and Ronaldo and Neymar not.

As an Englishman, do you pull for France or the Argies?

Gotta be the Argies due to Messi, no??

It's like an English nightmare final I think?

I would love to know people's thoughts on this and who they are rooting for in the final, assuming France wins tomorrow.

Gvardiol is a player I had never even heard of before this World Cup, My attention was drawn to him and I have been very impressed.

I know he is only 20 but, If he wants to be world class, he could not have gotten a closer view of what it actually looks like.

Messi ....Fuck me!

Jamie, football should always be about great players, and romance! Messi provides both imo, so I'm sure a lot of ‘football lovers' will be rooting for The Argies?

I also hope France win tomorrow, because I think it will be a much better final if they play Argentina rather than the Morrocco.

Anyone see the text today showing how the Moroccan manager was on a course that was put on by Mikel Arteta (I think?) with little Mickey explaining how his Arsenal team beat Man City at Wembley in the FA Cup? Tactics that Morrocco have adopted to bring about success.

Jamie #24, not really a nightmare, we can relax now knowing one of those countries is going to lose!

Seriously, it has been a pleasure watching Giroud, Griezmann and Mbappé, but surely we would all love to see the little Argentinian genius win it, to take him right up there with Pele and Maradona?

Tony and Peter,

Gotta root for Messi. Honestly the best player I've personally watched.

He's just a once-in-a-lifetime athlete. I'd compare him to anyone in their craft I've witnessed over the years: Jordan, Gretzky, Brady, etc. Any of them.

My entire family is Messi over Ronaldo, we all agree he's got oodles more talent than Ronaldo – who's clearly amazing in his own right. But Messi's technical skill is simply filthy. The dude has the ball on a string. It's been an absolute joy to watch for years.

I hope he gets his World Cup crown.

Peter @27,

It's so hard to decide who the GOAT is in football, but if we're using World Cups and goals as hard-currency, then Pele will probably never be beaten.

It's pretty unanimous in several sports, as Jamie pointed out, but if Messi wins this World Cup, then he certainly joins Pele and Maradona at the top table.

Okay, here is a little something from the 'Once you're Everton, you are always Everton' bag: Richarlison going to talk to the fans after losing to Croatia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgLe3MvEVT8&ab_channel=BalaMistSports

Serious football dude who truly gets it.

For anyone that's not seen it, the Messi film on BBC iPlayer is worth a watch.

Football's GOAT is rightly very subjective.

Pele, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo, Zico, Cruyff, di Stefano, Puskas, Platini all play(ed) for fabulous teams, and that can't be underestimated at all.

I'd really appreciate other TWers (even our Dazza!) suggesting any fabulous player who didn't have a star-studded team around him as a potential GOAT. There must be at least a few.

My late dad is screaming "Finney" in my dreams.

Any takers?

Football genius... Lionel Messi.

If George Best had played in World Cups, he'd have been up there on the top table, in my view.

So, just to be clear, we're thinking it's still a little bit early to include Alex Iwobi in this GOAT conversation?

Paul (#33),

Agreed, and all the more so when you think back to the crap pitches and brutal "tackling" he had to endure throughout his illustrious career.

The way Best controlled the ball at speed was mesmeric. In slo-mo, it was baffling to me how his tiny, finessed touches at full pelt completely laid waste to the otherwise sure-footed composure of hugely accomplished defenders of renown.

A genius indeed, Ronnie O'Sullivan on either side of a football pitch. A total one-off!

As much as it's been a joy to watch Morocco be the surprise package of the tournament, I too am hoping for a France v Argentina final. Mbappe and Messi on the highest stage of all.

Different players and different positions, but the master versus the apprentice.

I'll keep the politics out of it, as there are historical reasons for not siding with either nation. This is football. Personally, I'd like to see Messi lift the World Cup. A fitting end to a glittering career.

He's up there with the few that can be considered the true differentiators. Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff and Maradona. Now Messi.

It's all subjective and opinions. There are many others who come close, but just don't quite sit at that table in my opinion.

Paul 33,

One of the coaches at the club I work for played with and against George Best and also played against Pele. He said Best was a better player, as we all know it is all about the team you play in.

Imagine if George would have been English or Brazilian?

These days, Don, George Best would be accused of going down too easily!!

On a serious note, and watching the footage, he could have gone down, but always seemed to want to stay on his feet as much as possible. Those who saw more of him will be able to comment. I only caught him towards the end when he was briefly at Fulham and then in the US league of the time.

Wasted talent, although he was certainly rated amongst the greats.

Nobody wanted to go down in those days, Danny, because the players had a completely different mindset imo.

I believe football usually reflects life, and that's another reason for people to love little Messi because it always looks like he only plays for his team.

He's just a joy to watch, Tony. Enjoy's his football and plays with a smile on his face. I think people would like to hack him, but you have to get close to do that.

I don't want to go over old ground, but I'm still convinced that there's a chance, had he been English, he'd never have made it. I can hear it now; "Sorry lad, you're too small and lightweight."

Well, for that 3rd goal, he jinked, went one way, went the other, sent the very impressive Gvardoli to fetch a newspaper. By the time he returned, little Messi simply outmuscled him to put it on a plate for the young Man City player. Outmuscling someone who looked twice his size.

Even though France have been my favourites from the start, I'd really like to see Messi lift the World Cup. A fitting cap and tribute to a truly outstanding career by one of the all-time greats of World football who plays the game how it should be played.

I guess being at RB Leipzig, Gvardioli is out of reach and probably more so now. Not that centre-back is our priority in January or the summer. Just a thought.

I think it's changed a little bit, Danny, but Iniesta, Messi and Xavi all probably would have struggled to make the grade in England – but this is obviously something we will never know.

I look at certain coaches in the English game and genuinely think that they really wouldn't know what to do with such genuine talent when you look at how rigid certain teams play.

Speed is strength, though, and when you have also got a massive speed of thought, it can enable you to do things that other players can dream about, so I'll keep dreaming myself!

I do think it is getting better, Tony. When I look at Foden and even Grealish who isn't the tallest, at least there seems to be a focus on ability. I think we just went through a generation when there was too much emphasis on size, power, physicality and physical pace.

You touch on a very important point, which I'm sure you know better than me given the level you reached. It's often speed of mind and decision-making that buys you those 5 yards to outwit an opponent on the football pitch.

George Best in his younger days was an absolute warrior. He was nobody's punch bag.

The shite had a man mountain of a centre-half called Ron (Rowdy) Yates. he compared a tackle by Best to being "Hit by a tank".

Best was not just a genius with the ball at his feet.

Slight of frame? Yes.
Playboy? Definitely.
Boozer? Didn't try to hide it.

But make no mistake, the Belfast boy was as hard as nails.

I don't think anybody could argue about the outstanding talent George Best had, he was in the top three of all-time British greats.

I rated Tom Finney above him. Like George, he was a two-footed dribbling genius of a footballer who took plenty of rough tackles and got on with it. Tom could play on both wings as well as a centre-forward. Not only did he have humility, which George lacked, probably because they lived in different eras.

What tipped Tom over George for me was Finney lasted 20 years at the top; Best only lasted 7 years due to his own life choices.

As was said in an above post, players in the early post-war years and later on just got on with the heavy tackles and saw it as a sign of weakness if you stayed down. One player who I liked for this was Alan A'Court of Liverpool; he got absolutely slaughtered every week but just picked himself up and carried on like nothing had happened.

An English international winger, he also had a natural sense of humour which no doubt helped to him to accept what was going on around him. I think even Everton fans at the time found it hard to dislike Alan!!

As this thread has digressed a bit, as usual, I can't believe that Robin Friday has failed to get a mention - shocking!

Dennis (50).

Where did you dig this fella up from? I'd never heard of him so I googled him... Fuckin' brilliant – makes George Best and all the mavericks seem like timid choir boys.

I'll definitely be going to see the film when it comes out. Thanks, Dennis, for introducing him to ToffeeWeb!!

Ta, Dave.

One of my pals from way back was a Reading supporter, which was how I came to hear about him. I subsequently picked up the book: "The Greatest Footballer You Never Saw" – a most entertaining read.

Wow, yes, the maverick of Robin Friday. Absolutely nuts and a genius. Did they make a film in the end?

The only one that gets near him IMO is Billy Whitehurst, who was an absolute thug. Although speak to any Oxford Utd supporter and their two lads at the back (Shotton & Briggs) made short work of him.

As for Best, no one could ride a tackle like him. Sublime.

Dennis (47),

Do you know if that book is still in print?

Nick (48),

The film is being made at the moment: There was a young lad at Man Utd, I think he played under Alex Ferguson, who was a bit of a character, used to ride to the training ground on a bike with a guitar strapped to his back. He was offered a contract but for some reason he never signed it. He was his own man and did his own thing. I think he was found drowned in Amsterdam.

He was a young Irish lad if I'm not mistaken who was very talented but not interested in fame... can't remember his name. I might have written a post about him on ToffeeWeb.

As many have said, George Best was the best UK player, and by some distance; super natural balance, skill and instinct.

Messi, for me, in modern times on the World scale by a distance – and I hope Argentina can overcome this very well-organised French team with plenty of flair, belief and steel.

Cruyff in the 70s, for me, but some great players in their own right: Kroll, Gerd Muller, Resinbrink, Kaiser Franz, Platini (the footballer), Iniesta, Maldini, Schirea, Matthaus, Raul... so many, worth a mention.

It should be a great final, let's hope so.

I think so, Dave. Everything is either on Amazon or eBay now, isn't it?