Misfits, Mysteries and Nearly-Men — Moise Kean

But we pulled a right swifty offloading him back to Juve but even on home territory he returned to arsehole status and they got shut.

The penny seems to have dropped about what he can and can't do and, by the sound of his comments, he has finally turned into a professional and he's flourishing.

Hopefully it continues and he goes on to great things; he just needs to resist the temptation to drift back into his arsehole days.

I remember watching him play against Watford in a cup game, and he was put on the right wing? Playing under three different managers was never going to be easy, and he never got a decent run in the team.

It's great that he's settled at Fiorentina, and showing that there's a player in there, with all the goals this season.

He is back where he feels comfortable... let's see how good this kid can be.

Another immature young man in a foreign country, it's no surprise it doesn't always work out as hoped.

He looked like he had the weight of the world on his shoulders; we probably signed him at the wrong stage of his career. Good luck to the lad, I hope he succeeds.

Because you played like shit, son.

This decision alone might have ended up costing Marco Silva his job!

Not the first time you said that and I expect it won't be the last.

Bill obviously felt that Brands merited a place on the Board of Directors for his genius in the transfer market.

Offloaded to clubs who saw the raw potential, he failed to deliver until it appears he found a place where he was happy and more mature.

Good luck to him, glad he found a place where he can enjoy his football.

Marcel Brands must have been getting paid an absolute fortune to fail and still he got promotion. Sometimes I despair when I think about the mediocre people who have made a fortune out of Everton.

No vision. No long-term plan. Just hoping for a quick fix to make some money and survive for a few more months.

Massive first touch always got away from him and he tried wayyyy too hard. The ball bounced off him.

"He looked like he had the weight of the world on his shoulders; we probably signed him at the wrong stage of his career. Good luck to the lad, I hope he succeeds."

What is Moise Kean's weekly salary? Moise Kean currently earns €54,231 gross per week.

What is Moise Kean's annual salary? Moise Kean currently earns €2,820,000 gross per year.

What are Moise Kean's career earnings? Moise Kean has an approximate career gross earnings of €19,137,854.

What are Moise Kean's career earnings adjusted for inflation? Moise Kean has an approximate adjusted-for-inflation career gross earnings of €19,910,029 (2024).

When does Moise Kean's current contract expire? Moise Kean's contract expires on 30 June 2029.

What is Moise Kean's current contract worth? Moise Kean has 5 years and €14,100,000 gross salary remaining on his current contract.

My heart bleeds for him. And you hope he succeeds?

You only ever saw him in high pressure conditions. You are aware that is something that may affect performance levels but can also eventually be mastered?

I'm sure you'll just stick to remembering ‘yesterday' and chucking abuse.

Also, I always thought Antonee Robinson was a good left-back. He is better than Mykolenko by a country mile.

The Academy now seems to be able to organise a development path for young players to acheive a transfer fee – Cannon, Simms, Dobbin and Gordon have brought in £70M.

Let's see what happens to Dixon, Harrison and Benjamin. They can get first-team appearances provided the results stabilise. Unfortunately, while we are kicking around the Bottom 5, they have no chance.

I wonder if we did, or even tried? It's not like years ago, when young players from other parts of the country would go into digs – usually a lodger with a family. (I worked with someone who used to do that for Derby in the '90s / early '00s.)

These days with the modern "pressures" faced, I wonder how clubs do look after the welfare of players?

In a couple of generations, we've gone from players having to work after retirement from the game, to players who admit they don't know how to make a cup of tea.

He benefited from playing as a bit-part in a star-studded Juve team and we fell for it. A latter day Mark Robins at best. Completely over-rated.

Your top post reminds us if we need reminding just how moronic and thick it is to call Moise Kean an 'arsehole'.

Paul #6, he ain't that talented and he wasn't mismanaged, just misplaced.

Tony #8, the only thing that cost Marco Silva his job was Marco Silva.

Colin #12, Robinson was "ruined"? Funny, he doesn't look the least bit ruined. He looks great, for club and country. As for Lookman, he failed at his next four stops after us before he finally grew up and learned how to be a professional. Good on him, but the delay wasn't Everton's fault.

Matt #17, I'd say we did, but the player has to do his part. Like Lookman, he didn't know how. Now he does.

He was successful at Leipzig in his first loan spell, Leicester wanted to sign him on a permanent transfer but couldn't afford him - as confirmed by Brendan Rodgers in an interview a few weeks ago. He has been a huge success with Atalanta.

Lookman was simply young and developing his game.

The same applies to Antonee Robinson. It took spells at Bolton and Wigan before he was ready for the Premier League. If we had shaped a proper development path for him, he would be our left-back today.

Everton simply hasn't offered a stable structure for young talent to develop for the last 8 years.

It might be longer Steve. But, apparently, Kean is an 'arsehole'.

I think the night he took this boy off less than 20 minutes after introducing him at Old Trafford was savage. His callous "he'll get over it" attitude made a very poor decision seem even worse.

You just can't publicly humiliate a kid like that and expect him to bounce right back.

Keane arrived in a foreign country aged 19 years old, and he struggled to adapt.

Then he gets shipped out on loan after he had 3 managers in his first season here - but the blame lies with him?

What is unusual is our impatience and “eat your young” attitude to young players. It has been the same as long as I can remember.

Stones, Barkley, Davies, Kenny, Holgate, Lookman, Gordon and DCL have been targeted - that is easily £150-200 millions worth of talent.

In contrast, mediocre, unprofessional and embarrasing senior pros have been given a pass.

I'm genuinely pleased for him in Firenze. A beautiful place to live. Erm, I think Moise comes out of all of this well and the best of luck to him and he's only 24 with his best years ahead of him.

And, of course, the clown who called him an 'arsehole' paid no attention at all to Moise's tough upbringing. I can't bear people who. lack empathy and sympathy. And, erm, he is in a much better place now than we are as a club collectively.

What an 'arsehole'.

I look back at those decisions and bad luck (despite the complete incompetence by the club prior) as a real turning point under Moshiri. The end of the previous season had us turning the ship and we looked a good outfit, we know Silva is a good coach and I wish we still had him.

I am pleased for Kean, i hope he continues to smash it. He looked lost for us, very poor and i saw little to know evidence at the time he was worth the cash. That's the way it goes but we don't have a good track record ala Lookman et al.

I agree with the comment about Duncan. He never lived up to his potential, and Joe Royle called it right. I appreciate he struggled with injuries, that's part of the game. His discipline let him down. I know he was an iconic figure when a generation needed someone as a beacon of hope.

I also don't think he got enough credit for how good a footballer he was, often viewed as a target man. When he played, he was more than that.

As has been said, Moise Kean arrived in a foreign country as a teenager and struggled to settle. As said by Mike, all players develop at different ages. Some, like Rooney, are ready made. Others, like Branthwaite, need a bit of experience (loan in the Netherlands). And others just take time.

By the time Lookman's time was up at Leipzig, they couldn't wait to see the back of him; he never scored a goal for them under contract. Four in 34 on loan at Fulham. It wasn't his game that needed developing, it was his personal maturity. Maybe Rodgers helped him along those lines.

But while Rodgers may have wanted to buy him based on potential, he certainly didn't consider Lookman a vital contributor then, because at the end of the 21-22 season when Leicester was trying to stay in Europe, Lookman played only 67 minutes in their last six critical games. The guy was an inconsistent failure with skills until he got to Atalanta at age 25.

Robinson, on the other hand, was a starter at Bolton at age 20 and a full-time starter at Wigan at 22, starting every game if he was healthy. It wasn't that we didn't "shape a proper development path" -- it was that we never gave him a chance at all. Marco The Moron didn't believe in him and never put him in the squad for a single game.

Football is cut-throat and you can't really argue with your cut-and-dried opinion but, like they say in America, give us a break!

Silva got the sack and Brands got promoted – only at the most dysfunctional football club in the world, Mike – a club full of nepotism and absolute mediocrity, and dozens of non-disclosure agreements, with a very handsome payoff when you are asked to leave.

It seems like he's agreeing with you to a degree in that he should have played him, although I did hear unconfirmed rumours that Lookman had a bit of an attitude problem in his younger years.

Hindsight is a great thing but, looking back, we maybe should have given Silva more time, but that wasn't the Moshiri way. Knee-jerk reactions.

Moise Kean has only once had more than 12 starts in a season and that was at PSG where he managed 13 goals in 22 games.

Consistency is so key to a player's form and confidence and it's why I think those who write off players that are hardly playing (such as Beto perhaps) are betraying a lack of understanding.

It's also about clever transfer policies. Don't spend big chunks of money on a young player unless you're pretty confident you can give him the time to play and improve (see Jake O'Brien), either at your club or elsewhere.

Maybe I read too much into his comment as you did with mine, but it seems to me that he thought he had a God-given right to get into the Everton team because of our meagre level.

Needless to say, he didn't — certainly not playing as badly as he did from Day 1.

Hindsight but the constant factor has been Moshiri and his pigheadedness and having no patience nor understanding of football coaching and development.

A shame that the career pathways have taken some very good prospects away from Everton and to a better place for some of Everton's youngsters.

For the best of the current senior youngsters, Dixon and Mills, I hope they can survive and play for Everton in the TFG era.

One of the other dimensions to the story is Kean's disgraceful treatment as a teenager by Italian and Juve fans and his own teamates. I am pretty sure it was Bonucci who criticised him for reacting to appalling racist fans towards the end of the season before we bought him.

Arriving in a new country after that at 19, and realising that Everton (despite assurances from Brands) was a mess unravelling must have tough - and then covid hit.

The role of Calvert-Lewin is also critical here. It appears that Dom rose to a challenge at the start of that season, found a new level, and became a good target man. He improved beyond the club's expectations of an athletic but not especially gifted player and blocked Kean's route to the First XI.

However, we made money on Kean. The moral of the story is this:

- Look after younger players better, especially those coming from overseas who are expected to show much more maturity than homegrown kids. They not only need a route to the first team, they also need properly looking after.

- Buying Champions League potential teenagers is a good idea, because you can generally flog them for good money even if it doesn't work out (but paying more than about £20M for teenagers is risky).

I'm not saying he is completely ready, but I think most of us can see the potential for him to feature in the first-team squad.

Play Lindstrøm central. Let Ndiaye do his thing. Hopefully McNeil will be fit for Brentford. Then we have the unpredictable Doucoure with anyone from Gana, Garner or Mangala behind them.

The questions being who lines up at the back, Keane, Tarkowski? Branthwaite is a no-brainer. And the full-back dilemma.

On the topic of other misfits, Harper and Richardson — they couldn't command a regular place, yet were so important to us.

Joe Parkinson?? Barry Horne?? And what about Paul Power??

And if Lindstrøm is central – where are McNeil and Ndiaye?

None of this is straightforward unfortunately.

Dixon earned a short runout against Doncaster… and got to play against Southampton in those cup games but, as far as the Premier League goes, he has lost his place on the subs bench (to Begovic!) since he was last seen there a month ago, and has been firmly placed back in the Under-21s.

Dixon is rapid and can get the opposition on the back foot. Patterson may take a while to develop and has been blighted by injury.

With regards to Lindstrøm, McNeil and Ndiaye, that is a conundrum, but it's good to have options, like a lot of other teams do.

Agree with Robert we need to be investing still in young players we can develop and move on for big money, ø la Dortmund, Leipzig and Brighton for example.

However, to do that, we need to embrace the model not flirt with it. In recent years we've at times invested in youth then blocked their pathway, that is not good for anyone. Look at Patterson as an example of this.

Hopefully the future for at least one of Dixon and Patterson is gaining experience on loan – because a high-quality right-back has been bought for the First Team.

As I say, I don't expect him to be playing the full 90 right now, but he should feature in my opinion.

Patterson is a concern with his injuries, but I like his attitude and, if he can stay fit, he has potential and is another one who likes to push forward.

It's all about having options all over the pitch.

Should that happen, we have to deal with what we have. I like Mykolenko, even though he gets criticism for not giving us forward options. Recently, Ashley Young has put in a few shifts despite his years.

We're heading into next week and building up for the Brentford match. Friends, family and Everton at Goodison.

You can argue both ways – if they are good enough, they are old enough, it's then a case of how much of a risk taker you are.

Young players like Gordon and Branthwaite have been given games and Patterson too when fit (he rarely is). Chermiti probably would have been getting opportunities but for injury.

So maybe age isn't the issue?

Dixon has something about him that I like. Same as Ndiaye, who is exciting to watch, a rarity in recent seasons.

It will be interesting to see how Mangala settles in.

And yes, it would be good to see more of Chermiti to see what he has to offer.

We have the players, and I'm looking forward to seeing them next week as much as I'm looking forward to my usual haunts in town and County Road, before marching down the Goodison Road.

That last one is for Mark Murphy. I know he loves it really!!

Certainly Armstrong looks close and Iroegbunam too.

I forgot about Iroegbunam, probably because I struggle to spell his name!!

This is it though, we have the makings of a decent team, if we sort out the tactics and get organised.

Keep researching, Robert, your detail fascinates me… and I think I know my football.

As Danny said, young Dixon had a very promising debut against Spurs and hasn't been seen since and, as Michael commented he has lost his place on the bench to Begovic. But Dixon has great pace which would be a big asset, especially if you wanted to play with overlapping full-backs, but our manager doesn't play that way.

As Lee Carsley said on his team selection this week, if you don't play the youngsters, then how do you know if they're good enough or not???

I agree, Brands's weakness during that year, firstly not backing Silva after Moshiri's AGM outburst, and then through the debacle of the Saha Summer. He only came up with Iowbi to save the situation. This disrupted the preseason preparation and season plans. Silva then became a scapegoat.

Lockman and Kean both needed a more continental passing game to play in which they were never going to get at Everton.

Antonee Robinson was a stupid transfer.

I don't know how much the Friedkins will pump in – or should that be, with PSR, will be allowed to pump in. But for this club to get anywhere near challenging for a European spot, we need to be better at spotting good young talent.

But that only works if you have a good manager who can coach and improve players, and a manager willing to give youth a try. I haven't checked the stats but I think Ancelotti gave more game time to youngsters than most who have come after Moyes.

As it happens, we were something like 11th in the table of minutes for teenagers last season.

And do you think if we had a right-back of the quality of Conor Bradley or Rico Lewis that he wouldn't be playing due to age? That seems a bit far-fetched.

Good luck to him, I say, and hope he continues his form. Whether he's worth £1 or £100M is not really relevant. Just good to see a kid come through after a few false starts. He also seems to have the maturity to take the positives out of any situation. Can't have been easy for him when he was with us.

He currently appears better than what we have on our books in any case … he's second top scorer in Seria A, can't get there without talent.

(Lookman is joint fourth - could have been a decent attacking pair for us in another world.)

Denis, this is a very good point. Often, we have to be patient with young players. They can come good, surrounded by experienced players and the revolving door of managers will not have helped many of our young players, as it creates uncertainty.

On Brands, he done a good job on Branthwaite. His problem at Everton, in my opinion, was allowing himself to get sucked into the dysfunctional board, when he should have been focussed on his DoF role..

Anyway, that's all water under the bridge. We move on.

This is the creme de la creme and, if players aren't ready made quality, they get left behind!

The Championship, Ligue 1, La Liga etc can develop talent. The Premier League is on a level of its own and we don't have time to develop players, we need them banging goals now!! (See our current Beto and Chermiti conundrum)….

It saddens me that Ndiaye is actually the exact player we all wanted Barkley to be! 😞Turning in his own half and bursting past players looking forward. Every time I see Ndiaye play, he is exactly to a tee the same player I thought Ross was going to turn into…

Someone above said “I can't stand people with no empathy or sympathy”, probably the same fella wants Dom to start up top every week. Have we not seen Saving Private Ryan? Remember when they let the German fella go because they had empathy and didn't kill him, then he knifes the allied soldier in the stomach in the building and kills him! That's where empathy and sympathy get you!

I was taught growing up not to have empathy because it's weak and doesn't get the best outcomes. I couldn't care less about any professional footballer's career, as they don't give a shit about our well-being… fuck Kean, and fuck Dom right now!! We don't need empathy, we need quality!!

This is the Premier League… American sports have nailed it: take NFL kickers. They can be on huge contracts but, if they miss big kicks or start to slip, they get cut and fucked right off for someone else. Too much on the line.

You are correct that he didn't score a goal under contract for Leipzig, but he did score 5 goals for them on loan the previous season. You also say that he only played 67 minutes in their final 6 games, but omit to mention that he made 26 appearances that season and scored 6 goals.

You mention his personal maturity but, frankly, you have no idea about his personality, motivation or maturity.

Rodgers said this about Lookman: "He came in and he was absolutely brilliant for me, scored some outstanding goals. I remember the goal he scored against Liverpool when we won 1-0, it was a great individual goal. We wanted to sign him at Leicester but sadly we couldn't sign any players that summer."

I know a few Leicester supporters from my time working in the Midlands, and they were gutted they couldn't afford him. This season? 8 goals and 4 assists.

The guy is a fantastic player.

We've tried spending millions, that got us into a tricky situation.

Branthwaite wasn't ready made but has developed into one of our best players at 22 years old.

I would select Roman Dixon ahead of Patterson at this time, and agree that Nathan would benefit from a loan spell. Ndiaye should be first choice behind Calvert-Lewin, with McNeil moved to the left and Lindstrøm staying on the right. It is not his best position but we have no-one to play wide right; at least he is technically okay and has pace. Harrison to be back-up on the bench.

I also think age is an issue for any club that struggles in the Bottom 5 season after season – the risk profile of selecting young players into a poor performing team becomes a problem for managers who may lose their jobs.

True talent such as Branthwaite and Gordon will push through, but managers generally will only select younger players if they were signed for a sizeable fee – the club hierarchy who financed these moves expect to see the player in contention. Hence Patterson and Chermiti get regular game time while Academy talent like Dixon and Armstrong don't.

Developing blistering players who are clearly class like Saka, Foden and Co is different because they actually were ready to begin with. Like Wazza, just ready made, but Pep held Foden back as they had Silva and Co.

I'm talking Lookman, Chermiti etc… even the Shite are impatient with Darwin Nunez coz he can't score enough.

Think of the Onana situation (sorry again, I said you were wrong, Dave!). Now that times two, we all typed furiously about not running the lanes, not trapping the ball, and not getting into battles for 50/50s. Let's just say there was a list and that was him just out of Juve's development.

Had there been a player in the side whom Kean respected enough to overcome his troubles, it could have turned us around. Instead, we saw him get double subbed as Colin stated, a covid party, and a roughed-up transfer image. It was worth the chance.

Compare Giggs to Beckham, who was loaned out to Preston to develop him.

If not… mmmm. I'd argue it takes more character and strength to show empathy than not. It's incredibly hard, just on numbers, for any kid to ‘make it' but ultimately we're all human beings and being nice and compassionate tends to bring out the best in people, especially in youngsters. Kean was a kid and likely homesick and all of a sudden had 40k odd at Goodison Park expecting (hoping) he'd start banging in the goals.

We (I think) seem to forget most of these players are still really only kids. I didn't feel ‘grown up' until my 40s! They may have money and a relatively pampered lifestyle but I cannot imagine the pressure they must be under to perform, week-in & week-out. See how many have mental issues and addictions later in life.

They also must have struggles and are under even bigger pressure to perform?

Or do we just kick them out the door after 12th place finishes (without deductions) and say good riddance?

Empathy is more powerful now in bringing out the best in younger people; it is also expected by them.

When I started my career, I got zero feedback, coaching, support or positive reinforcement. I didn't know any better as that was how I was brought up!

I can't say for sure this generational mindset switch applies to sport, but I think it probably does.

The Premier League is the most physical league in the world, and I'd guess it is a totally different environment to at least 95% of other leagues anywhere else in the world.

I'm not saying you can't develop talent, but only the quickest, most physical or most skillful get through at an early age in the top English league. This is why it didn't take me long to realize that Marcel Brands didn't really have the necessary experience for the English game.

Spend your money on coaching, Everton, because after the really top level 5% (the most natural of young footballers), I'd argue that the best coaches would be able to develop more players and a much better style of play for future generations, for any club who invests enough time, money, and effort, going down that road.

Branthwaite wasn't quite ready made, but you could see it in him. He scored that goal right in front of me in the lower Shed End

The loan did him well.

I certainly didn't mind getting criticized off any person who had my best interests at heart and was genuinely trying to help me become a better footballer, rather than just venting because they probably didn't like or possibly even rate me.

"You was good today, son" –- I didn't know how to respond because I always thought it was my job to be good.

"You was shite today, son" – I already know, thanks for reminding me!

Tell me why you thought I was good, and I will try and carry on doing the things that made me play well. And instead of telling me I was shite, tell me the things I was, or wasn't doing that contributed to me playing shite – because, after all, nobody likes playing shite.

I don't believe there is enough of this in-depth and personal coaching afforded to young players (I might be wrong) and my own personal view is that this would make a hell of a difference, and definitely help to improve a lot of young footballers if it was offered to them.

On a similar note, Mark Cavendish, aka the Manx Missile. During his post-retirement interview, he said he would never make the grade now. He was not big enough or strong enough but could use his brain to make the right time to attack.

There is no metric for tactical or critical thinking!

Just as well… or he would not be the man with the most Tour de France stage wins in history!

So I suppose my point is that we need to enable players to grow and accommodate talent. Moise Kean has taken time and it seems Lookman is doing okay now.

Footballers are not fast food. It is not always "I want it now"; sometimes, you need to just wait.

Silva is a fine manager now – in part because he learned from his terrible mistakes at Everton.

Yes, he coached pretty football, but he couldn't be bothered to coach basic defense -- we led the league in goals given up to set pieces for two seasons in a row.

He didn't need Zouma for that. He just needed to let go of his passive zonal marking system. I believe we would have been relegated if he hadn't been sacked.

As for Robinson, Silva and Brands should have known what a talent he was from his performances at Bolton, whom he helped save from relegation.

I watched him instantly become the USA's left-back from his debut games in 2018. To give up on him and dump him for pocket change was inexcusable even if we did have Baines and Digne. That's on Silva too.

Steve and Steve...

There was no bigger booster of Lookman than me. Nobody. I loved his gifts and I bored the hell out of the Forum by calling for him off the bench in every game.

I was heartbroken when we gave up on him. But I understood. He had been given the minutes and had done nothing for us, and he wanted to leave. He didn't live up to his Everton contract. He didn't live up to his Leipzig contract.

Good for him that he finally grew into his talent, but look how long it took. We'd have had to be monumentally patient and clairvoyant to stick with him that long.

The slow one now will later be fast - but the present now is full of self-preservation and doesn't want to be past!

There is definitely a lot more self-preservation in football, rather than out-and-out genuine talent. It is after all just a job, and jobs need protecting by any means!!

The kid is a fine physical specimen though, very quick, very strong, but a little bit too stiff, and he has developed over time – because he needed time (So maybe Silva even helped him Mike!) – into a decent or very good (depending on your opinion) fullback.

I'm still not sure if Marco Silva is a top coach; I just think he got shafted by Marcel Brands. Zonal marking aside, his Everton team kept 8 clean sheets out of their final 11 games during Silva's only full season, after the pressure was on and the players got an extended 18-day break, including some winter sun, to work on things.

How can you play a high line with Michael Keane playing in the centre of your defence? This is how good Marcel Brands was, a decision so appallingly bad! It makes it look like him and Silva never actually talked about things together.

That was Kenwright and Parish. At the beginning of that Summer, Brands announced a sell-to-buy and tight budget. Mosiri released money at the start of August; Everton pursued Saha, having to deny the media reports.

Brands's and Silva's careful planning took a back seat and the right players were missed. I always say that the purchase of Iowbi was to regain control and stop the Saha bid.

Brands was Moshiri's pawn, brought on to the Board to have someone who knew about buying players, stung by the deadwood duds. He proved weak getting sucked in by Kenwright and Barrett-Baxendale. He gives Unsworth promotion, but seems to have let him keep his old job.

He did try to bring in a younger profile and promoted a young TV age profile of the Academy trying to do away the U23 team that were playing a different style to the first team and not developing replacements.

The youth development side will hopefully be developed, as a genuine and reliable youth system for Everton under TFG.

Any youngster must have the passion and guts, to progress aside to their natural ability and potential to develope and improve.

As many have said, its been desperate times, for 40 odd years, and Rooney, was a once in a generation natural footballer.

What chance do the youth have when they barely get a squad place, even when playing very well?

The current manager is in permanent damage limitation mode.

This season is flying by and by default I hope the die is already cast for the changes that will be needed to restore Everton over the next 3 - 4 years to a stable football club with genuine potential to compete at the top end of the Premier League and to win a trophy!

I'm hoping there is magic in the air and the TFG era heralds a new positive age for Everton. Let's hope so.

Agree, the only reason Dyche played Dixon against Spurs was because he had no other full-back, and he was our best player on the day.

But I cannot understand why he hasn't given him a game since; he even played Garner, who was completely lost, even if he did play there for England U21s.

Also, Ndiaye is totally lost on the wing, but Dyche said he's not a No 10, even though he plays there for Senegal?

But his pace and power have always been tremendous (despite the odd upright running style), and his attacking instincts are obvious.

As to what he has become... he was Fulham's player of the season. Pretty rare for a left-back.

Just read Ndiaye got rated 5/10 playing as a 10.

It's all about opinions isn't it.

A relegation Manager is as you say not interested in developing youth. Big Sam basically ended youth development when he arrived at Everton and killed the idea of a youth pipeline of potential. It has never returned to the days prior to Big Sam.

Dyche is the new Big Sam of the Premier League. Branthwaite was lucky to get a break and more importantly be up to it. But such a talent is likely to be in the shop window in a relegation-treated team.

Who has proved us wrong in the past 30 years? Pretty much no one apart from Robinson and he was never going to oust Digne from a first-team spot.

Seriously, U21s football is full of players at least as good as our lot and very few make it each season. The standard required in the Premier League is just so high.

But I did watch him at Everton and he certainly wasn't some raw talent. He was clumsy, deceptively slow, lazy, and a moaner.

I remember watching him at home to Sheffield Utd and it was clear to me that he wasn't going to have an Everton career.

On the plus side, he proves that a certain profile of player even at decent money, is low(ish) risk. Buy young and highly rated – and at least the money usually comes back.

With respect to time, it's been shown many times that changing managers too often is detrimental but football isn't a normal business. Most clubs are essentially vanity toys for rich owners, who are often trigger happy if their toy isn't living up to expectations.

I certainly think managers should be given time – albeit in the case of Dyche I think it's time for a change as the club is relatively stable now that Kenwright isn't there. His passing was the best thing to happen to the club in c30 years – not that I wish anyone dead.

I was just highlighting that, no matter what they did, as soon as others were fit, they were benched. Richardson went on to win a title with Arsenal.

Patterson appears to have been fit for approaching 2 months – at least he's been getting a seat on the subs' bench for the last month, albeit allowed to watch each match untroubled.

Oh, wait a minute. It was the other bloke who was from Dudley... nevamind!

He was very close to being the only player to win the English league with 3 different clubs, when his Aston Villa side fell away in the last third of the season in 1991-92 under Big racist Ron.

He was here about 6 months, was only interested in lining his pockets, keeping us up, and drawing games from a drawing position; he didn't go near youth development.

There is nothing wrong with dropping down the league to help a young footballer develop at a time that it is imperative that they are just playing, which is by far the best way to learn.

I understand why you can blame Silva, Mike, but with two very good international fullbacks in front of Robinson, who knows how the conversation went?

They say a manager has got enough on his plate just managing his team nowadays, so surely this is why a club has so many scouts who all work under the Director of Football. I personally think that Director of Football epitomized Moshiri's Everton.

I was sitting right behind Alan Harper when he lobbed Martin Hodge at the 1986 semi-final at Villa when both Sheeds and Lineker were declared unfit I think on the morning of the match. But I loved watching the two of them laughing and celebrating sitting in their blankets after Gregory Peck put us 1-0 up.

I was also behind Harper when I watched him puking up in the car park at The Weld Blundell on the Formby bypass (that team or most of them were always there on a no-game Wednesday night).

I mean, it's not like we needed the £2M we got for him. But if you think Brands deserves the blame, fair enough.

Hopefully there will be progress with the development side. You're right, it takes dedication and hard work to succeed in football, or any walk of life for that matter.

What used to frustrate me when I was coaching, was when we used to get the lads trials with Tottenham, Brentford, Watford and Wycombe.

They were chasing the dream. The sad thing from my perspective was that, if they didn't make it, they dropped out of playing football altogether.

I used to try and convince them to drop down a level or two. One went to a club called Staines Town and did well for himself.

Just enjoy playing and supporting football.

Michael, I think the manager lost a lot of credit with the supporters when he had a pop at us. As for the other Dudley character, I don't like talking about him as an Everton manager!!!

I will still never forget that night at the Emirates when I was fortunate, if you can call it that, to be sat behind the dugout and listen to him and Wenger as we got truly schooled.

I'm off up to Dudley this morning to visit the wife's family. I will pop along to the house where Duncan Edwards was born or lived in. I've been there before. There's a statue of him in the town centre. I like my football history and I've visited the Munich memorial at the end of what was then the runway.

If so, lay out a plan for him, including a loan with a clear pathway forward. The progressive clubs do it all the time, experience for him and a ready-made back up left-back who would have really challenged Digne to the starting birth.

As I said in an earlier post, we need to stop flirting with the developing young players model and actually commit.

Silva, will have obviously said, he’s not ready for my team, but this doesn’t mean he didn’t say he’s not ready yet, is how I think the conversation, might have went Mike, but I’m obviously just guessing!

Having this discussion did bring back memories of a conversation I once had with Paul Cook’s, brother, when Robinson, was playing for him at Wigan. He’s decent, but our kid said that this is what happens with young players, they make their mistakes with me, before they hopefully go on to better things, once they have ironed out their mistakes.

In the same conversation he told me Reece James, who was on loan from Chelsea, was already ready to play in the EPL.

There is quite a bit of improvement needed!

Tony, your first paragraph says it all. Without sounding like the President Elect, make Everton professional again.

Silva wants fullbacks to bomb on often exposing the wings. If he was to stay at home, Silva would drop him for not attacking more.

He didn't make it with us due to the millions being thrown around by Moshiri, simply bad timing.

He is a modern Premier League left-back. Lots of international caps and lots of Premier League experience. A heart scare scuppered his move to AC Milan, who know a thing or two about players.

Who are the best left-backs in the Premier League and can any of them defend?

If Moshiri hadn't pulled the plug financially 3 years ago, we'd probably have a better left-back. As it happens, Mykolenko is a better defensive left-back but just having a poor season so far.

Our real challenge is to produce a higher volume of players of this standard – and also to sell many more players of this standard to generate a bigger transfer kitty for the first team.

Liverpool won't be lamenting the sale of Bobby Clark and absolutely tonnes of others. They've pocketed the money and will reinvest in better. So should we.

I was out most of yesterday and just saw your reply to my post, in which I said that youth only works if you have a decent manager who will give youth a chance, which Dyche doesn't.

You list Branthwaite, Onana, Patterson and Iroegbunam as, I presume, young players who Dyche has brought into the team. All the above were bought and not brought through our academy system.

Dyche himself has stated he doesn't coach Branthwaite much and Iroegbunam has said he hasn't had a lot of input from Dyche.

I suspect that, if Brands hadn't taken him to PSV, we might still see Branthwaite in the U21s. Name me one player who has come through our U18s or U21s that Dyche has nurtured and brought into the first team?

Dixon got 1 game and has been replaced on the bench by Begovic. How often has he played Patterson when fit, and Onana cost a fortune and has said he has learnt more since he left Everton.

Silva and Kean were both awful during their spells here and no amount of time, patience or sympathetic head-patting would have seen them succeed, irrespective of any more recent career achievements elsewhere.

At Everton, Silva had a worse win percentage than Allardyce, Koeman and Martinez, with only 19 league victories from 53 games.

His team failed to come from behind to win even once in a Premier League match during his time at the club, and his inability to coach a side to defend set-pieces (a trait carried on from his time at Watford and Hull) was a glaring weakness regularly capitalised upon.

That was a far more debilitating factor than losing Kurt Zouma and also a self-inflicted one that should have been worked on tirelessly on the training ground if you were persistently being punished through overlooking it.

Under Silva, we went out of the FA Cup at the hands of Millwall, conceded five against Liverpool (for the first time since 1982), six against Spurs, and lost against two newly promoted sides in Sheffield United and Norwich in quick succession.

Whatever he's gone on to do at Fulham, Silva's Everton side ended up in an awful state and there's no way his sacking can be painted as premature or harsh in retrospect. We were in the Bottom 3 when he was binned and there was no indication whatsoever that he was likely to turn that situation round anytime soon.

As for Moise Kean, the lad was meant to be a £25M player yet he repeatedly looked like he hadn't the foggiest what he should be doing when out on the pitch and, after an initial burst of Beattiesque bombing about, showed all the urgency of William Shatner working his way through a wordy as fuck sentence.

It's easy to have a pop at Duncan Ferguson for bringing him off after turning to him from the bench, but people should remember the “callous” caretaker also made a point of not publicly criticising the player and stated he was taken off to waste time, even though it was far more likely down to Kean failing miserably to perform the role he was tasked with (and this after he made a show of sulking off down the sidelines and mouthing “What the Fuck?”).

When he came on in that Man Utd game, Richarlison had to repeatedly usher Kean away from the left-hand side and tell him to play centre-forward. Straight down the other end and Iwobi was having to show him where to stand when defending a corner. Calvert-Lewin was shouting at him to get closer after winning the ball in the air and Kean being stood nowhere near.

Only 10 minutes after coming on, he was stood bent over with his hands on his knees blowing for chunks next to the guy he was meant to be marking. Then he was noticeably strolling around after giving the ball away when other players who had been on the entire game were busting a gut to get back.

Whilst it was always evident Lookman (who some have compared him to) had natural talent but perhaps not the application, Kean just looked hopelessly lost, like a less physical, equally ball-repelling Beto minus the puppy dog expression and eager-to-please bound.

Which players from the academy have been good enough while Dyche has been here?

The brightest hopes in that time have been:

Warrington
Cannon
Simms
Welch
Onyango
Mills (injured)

All of whom have found their level in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th tier.

The point is that the academy hasn't produced anyone of Premier League quality.

Armstrong has had bench time and a few minutes which is fairly normal for his age. There's talk of a loan too - which many on reflection reckon would have been good for the much maligned Tom Davies.

Dixon is probably the one exception where none of us know. I've seen him a few times at academy level. Some saw him against the likes of Sligo and Tranmere. We all saw him acquit himself well at Spurs. The reports are fairly mixed as to whether he's ready. I reckon he'd benefit from a loan. I might be wrong and he's immediate Premier League quality.

As of now, does he get in ahead of Coleman or Young or Patterson?

As unpopular as Young is, he's been good after some ropey early-season form.

Maybe none of those on your list are good enough, which is a bigger question for our academy set-up. But Dixon was up against two fast wingers against Spurs and acquitted himself well, and I always like to judge players playing away from home as usually more questions are asked of them.

Look, I don't know if Dixon is good enough but, to quote Lee Carsley, unless you give youngsters game time, you will never know how good they are.

It's pretty tough then to beat up Dyche about his use of homegrown youth if there's only really one example – and it's very marginal.

As you say, the bigger issue is that the academy doesn't produce enough quality.

Alongside that, a huge issue is that any other Premier League clubs would not pin their hopes on Dixon – they'd just buy a new right-back.

With so many foreign players now in teams it further makes it more difficult for a young player to come through the ranks and become a established a first team player.
Of all young kids who aspire to become a professional player the percentage who make a Premiership player must be very very small indeed.

We've touched on the subject of coaching before, while I'm not dismissing it, I think a players innate physical and mental abilities far outweigh any coaching.

The great Howard Kendall at his emotional leaving press conference, calling Athletic Bilbao ‘El mejor club en el mundo’

Again it’s a contradiction, (I find most things are) because although I also think that a lot of coaching is overrated, I would also argue that clever, common sense coaching can make all the difference in a lot of circumstances?

I remember reading Carragher’s book. He actually went to the National school of excellence, that was started in the eighties, with a claim that English football wanted to start concentrating on making the best young English footballers, a lot more technical.

John Ebbrell attended one year, Carragher, went another year, and although they were both good players, the word I would use most to describe them would be methodical?

The English FA, spent loads of money, setting up this national school of excellence, and I could only shake my head when reading how a no nonsense coach from Yorkshire, stopped the session to tell Joe Cole, he would have none of that nonsense when the kid did a Cruyff turn in the middle of the pitch!

Good coaching is invaluable, I just don’t think there are that many good innovative coaches around?

They all struggled initially when given a chance in the first team. Howard Kendall’s response was to continue to play them and they found their feet.

And that was in a struggling team.

Harvey was innovative, his method of the time was something that allegedly never even existed until about 30 years later, when king Jurgen invented the gengenpress!

I also believe that good young players need good experienced professionals to help them out in the place that matters most, and suddenly Andy Gray joined Everton and Peter Reid also started getting his shirt every week.

You could also say that Dyche played one player continually, until near the end of last season, and he was adding nothing to the team, in my opinion, Onana.

Although a good percentage thought he was one for the future, I'd ask why did he persist with this player? Was it because he cost a lot of money?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting Dyche should have played someone from the youth academy instead of Onana? If so, who?

Quite simple: have a look at the midfield players Dyche did play when we won those games near the end of the season without Onana, without conceding a goal if my memory is correct!

And what this has got to do with the point I was talking to Brian about?

I was out with the dog yesterday morning and stood watching a training practice on the local park. I felt like stepping in.

A couple of "coaches" stood talking to each other and occasionally shouting at the young lads.

I used the EDIP approach. Explain, Demonstrate (important), Imitate and then Practice.

Yes, I took them through their paces and taught them tactics, but would always allow them to enjoy game play at the end. I would even join in!!!

It is too simplistic to say that academy players generally are not good enough/have not been good enough for the last 5 years.

In an unstable environment with constant turnover of managers, coaching teams, clear planning for young players and good senior pros in the squad, it is very difficult to introduce young players.

However, until players such as Dixon are given a run of games, it is almost impossible for them to establish themselves in the first team. The Rooneys of this world are the exception, not the rule.

Dixon had a very good game on his debut, and was promptly dropped for a 39-year-old left-back. Regardless of the decent effort Ashley Young has put in at right-back, that makes little sense.

You and Brian were discussing whether Dyche played young players enough: Onana is a young player and Dyche played him continually although he was not doing enough to merit that game time but was always played unless he was injured while other young players hardly got a look in.

Cannon and Simms, in a position where goals were needed, particularly stood out. Although it was debatable whether they would have done any better, Onana was on the team sheet every game while doing next to nothing.

Given the level level you reached, I wanted to ask if you felt you were exposed to a significantly higher standard of coaching than most of us who got to school team or Sunday league level but no higher?

Your comment about Joe Cole brings back memories of Brian Glover as the PE teacher in Kes (I guess most of us came across someone like that) or Harry Enfield's "Yorkshireman" parody.

On Xavi & Iniesta, I recall reading an interview with a guy from the Croatian FA who explained that part of the reason why they punch above their weight is that a country with a population the size of Wales is forced to put more effort into the development of youth players.

He offered the thought that 5'-6" and 6 stone Luca Modric was fortunate to have been born in Croatia as he might have failed to made it through the youth systems of the larger European clubs.

I thought he was going to be one of the greats. He had a very good career, but never quite made the “great” level. I have often wondered whether something was coached out of him, or whether the coaching he received enabled him to have the career he had.

Depending on your perspective, Onana was a crap youngster and Young is a crap veteran, both getting first-team minutes when other options were available.

More broadly, hopefully our next phase as a club is to spend decent money on first-team players and, unless they are like Mainoo, Lewis, Alexander-Arnold standard, send 18-, 19- and 20-year-olds on loan to get experience and earn a spot in the First Team. Need to recruit more heavily into the academy ages 14 to 17, too as other successful academies do.

I'd love us to become an academy led club but we have to invest much more in that for it to work. Could take a few years too.

My own guess would be that, whilst he would have got a lot more freedom and more people giving him the confidence to express himself at his boyhood club, once he signed for Chelsea, he would have had to alter his game; otherwise, he wouldn't have succeeded in a Jose Mourinho rigid system.

The no-nonsense Yorkshireman told me a lot though. I don't believe he would have had the nouse, wisdom or desire to coach technical kids, and that's why England has mostly produced methodical and workmanlike footballers until the last few years, and now it's slowly being changed by the elite academy system.

I never really got coached that much, Mike, and when I arrived at Forest as a 16-year-old, I suppose I was light years behind when it came to some of the boring structure that makes up 90% of professional football!

We are tottering around at the bottom of the table again; if we were comfortable in midtable he might chance Dixon.

Tony @ 109, I agree coaching is important and as you say it does depend on the merit of the coaches. Different positions all require different physical attributes, probably the two extremes would be a centre-back compared to a winger.

I would guess a central defender needs more coaching than an out-and-out winger, with a midfield player requiring the most.

Not sure if Onana was a crap youngster but he was certainly over-hyped, again imo. Young has had a very good career and, while time has taken its toll on him, his present form means I would select him before Dixon, Coleman or Patterson until the latter is fully fit.

With Mylolenko having a poor season, that leaves us in a very poor position when it comes to full-backs, so you are correct when you say signing a full-back or two would be the first signing when we are in a financial state to do so.

Lots of us have this syndrome. With Colin it's Iwobi. With me, as you know, it's Holgate (loved seeing him get sent off against the USA last week!!!). With Mick, it's Pickford. For multiple folks here it's Keane.

And I can't remember who it was who would flame Schneiderlin in every thread, whatever it was about. But I always got a kick out of it.

A question I love to ask from time to time, is what's the most important position on the pitch? I stand there smiling whilst trying to engage people with regards the difference of opinion, and sometimes I get a few glares when I give people my own opinion after I've heard a few different positions mentioned.

The most important position on the pitch is your starting position, I tell them, usually followed by a little glare back, especially if they've got a few coaching badges!

Less than 10 became major stars: Mbappe, Rooney, Vini Jr., Rodrygo, Gvardiol, Kounde, Sane, Sterling, Anelka.

And at least a half-dozen have been clear busts: Martial, Joao Felix, Fabio Silva, Saviola, Renato Sanches, Luke Shaw, maybe Fofana.

The rest are somewhere in the middle or too soon to tell, like Onana.

But how would anyone have been able to tell in advance? And can anyone pinpoint what went wrong with the busts? Were they badly coached, or at the wrong club? Or was something just missing in them, maybe that burning desire to be the best?

It's a fascinating subject.

Tony, as a member of the centre-back union, and a footballing playing one, I agree. You need anticipation, reading of the game and the ability to pass it out to the midfield.

I played a few times against a player who played alongside Dwight Yorke for Trinidad and Tobago. Proper handful who left me with a few bruises!!

God loves us left-footers!

Yes, I used to reply to your many posts praising Onana but then eased off, especially since he left to go to Villa. In fact, I might not have mentioned him and how he performs for them but I don't think I could ever be accused of over hyping a player, Although I used to go a bundle on Liam Walsh when he was in Everton's Academy; I thought he had everything in a young midfielder to make the grade,

He joined Luton Town in the summer after turning down a new contract at Swansea. I met him at a party in the summer and had a good chat to him about his career at Everton and how I thought he would one day play in the Premier League.

I think he appreciated the praise I gave him but said to me “You do know I'm a Red Nose, don't you?” I just replied, “Well no one is fuckin' perfect, Liam!”

I think Dyche, had those key ingredients you mention Danny, otherwise he wouldn’t have played so many league games as a converted central defender, and when they tried to convert me to a left back, I much preferred playing with a workmanlike wide player, because they always offered me a lot more protection, than a natural winger.

If you don’t have pace, you need protecting and because football, has always been about the ability of your players, then maybe Dyche has been over compensating because of the distinct lack of pace in our back four?

I would guess that the three examples that you used to describe the busts, will have all contributed to a young footballer, not kicking on Mike, with another thing being the rewards of a massive financial contract at such an early age, must surely go to a many a young kids head?

They say the old ones are the best Mark, so it depends where you got left back!

I'm surprised how mature most of the young players are considering the money they are now paid.

I got convinced that I should play centre-back, which I reluctantly agreed to and was good for me.

Needless to say, he didn't — certainly not playing as badly as he did from Day 1.”

Peter (33), you miss the point that your summation of the player was based solely on what you saw when he did actually get to play, unless you had followed his career in Italy and / or got to scrutinise training at Finch Farm.

If you only saw him when he got to play then you can only say he certainly didn't do enough to retain his place.

Just seems peculiar to me to be so sure of a characterisation of someone based on fractional / circumstantial evidence.

What exactly is your point, Si?

How else am I to judge a player? On how nice he was to his landlady? How many pictures he posed for?

I was a member of the same union, but I was never a footballer. Didn't want the ball at my feet at all.

I can say I was an excellent one-touch passer, but I learned that knack out of necessity.

How else am I to judge other posters?

I've been saying for ages we're too narrow.

I was a ball-playing centre-back. We played a 3-5-2 for years and won the Army League 6 times in 8 seasons. I could play either side of the 3, as I could use both feet. We had a 6ft-6in player who generally challenged as we covered. It was a good system.

I sometimes even got pushed up into midfield. At my own level, which was a decent standard, I was pretty versatile.

Both are playing well at a higher level… whereas we seem to turn players into sulking, unhappy misfits. Something rotten in the state of Finch Farm.

I think the heavy price tag made his life difficult, as he never looked like a player worth 30 million plus.

We will need to be brave enough to sign young talent earlier in their careers, as the Moshiri era of blowing 25 million plus on players is going to be a distant memory for a while.

No, the price we paid for Onana never had any effect on how I judged him. When a player continually goes missing from a game, you certainly notice it. Those little spells when he showed some talent didn't make up for those long spells out of the game.

He scored few goals and not many assists so, to me, he was over-hyped by many Everton fans. He could never be remembered, by me, for his time at Everton except for telling the crowd to support us by winning a throw-in or his after-game cheerleading, he is doing the same at Villa with their fans!

Oh, hang on – we did make a profit on his deal or we will when it is all sorted out.

Yes we've splashed out on players who haven't lived up to expectation. Onana frustrated because you could see the potential, but we only saw it in glimpses. Maybe because he was in a struggling team? Let's see how he goes at Villa.

In terms of transfer fees, all clubs spend. But we picked up Calvert-Lewin for £1.5M and Branthwaite for £1M.

It is often how you spend, not what you spend.

Judge them on what they do on the pitch.

I agree we have unearthed quality in Stones, Branthwaite and Calvert-Lewin, but they are the exception over the last 8 years, not the rule.

We have squandered a lot more in transfer fees and salaries on the likes of Schneiderlin, Williams, Klaasen, Sigurdsson, Walcott, Tosun, Bolasie, Keane, Ramirez, Gomes, Mina, Bernard, Gbamin, Delph, Kean, Godfrey, Allan, Rondon, Maupay and, indeed, Onana. A few were unlucky with injuries, but none of them represented value.

If there was a transfer strategy behind the purchase of the above list, then it is beyond the grasp of most Everton fans to understand.

I think the majority of supporters see it for what it was – dysfunctionality and gross incompetence that nearly destroyed the club.

It's all down to opinion. I judge on what players do on the pitch, not how much they cost.

Ndiaye, possibly our best performer this season, cost around £16M.

You are having to go back to the early Moyes days to find another example. Moyes did find value as he had to with an annual transfer budget of £5M.

Whether you judge the players signed since 2016 on performances, transfer fees or wages, the vast majority of players brought in have not been a success.

The Ndiaye transfer fee or below will be the model going forward. And we will have to find more value in that price range than we have managed with Patterson and Mykolenko for example (£29M spent).

Dominic and Branthwaite were not early Moyes years.

The point is about judging players on what they do on the pitch, not the price tag.

Not sure why quite a few fans think Patterson is a top player, any ideas?

To me, he looks very vulnerable in defence which is kind of the normal for modern fullbacks.

He hasn't got a load of pace and, from what I have seen, his link-up and quality is no better than what we have.

He has been unlucky with injuries, I just can't see him as a regular in the first team. Maybe he can play right wing?

I spent the next 20 years captaining teams from the back in the over-35 league in San Francisco. Played with and against retired internationals and pros, mostly from Latin America. I wasn't very good, but I was almost never beaten. Won a lot of games but no silverware.

I dropped back to lower-level open Sunday league in my late 50s, played through the cancer, and would still be playing if it hadn't been, ironically, for a slide tackle. I put one in on a 19-year-old junior college player, and it was maybe my best ever, but my Achilles blew out.

Now I just ref indoors.

I agree we're likely to focus on £20M and under signings. I think that's generally the right thing to do too – except maybe a few particularly key individuals.

Mike mentioned the most expensive teenagers of all time earlier the thread. Many flopped. That's true of all transfers.

It seems to me that we manage this risk by buying a fairly high volume of young players but at lower cost than Kean. Many very high potential players can be bought for sub £15M or even sub £5M (as Branthwaite and Stones have shown).

I wouldn't get too sentimental about Lookman etc. The tragedy isn't that we sold him too early – it's that we didn't increase our chance of a more immediate success by buying more like him from the lower leagues – like Eze and Olise for example.

I can't comment on the level you played at but if it included ex pros then it can't have been that low. I played school and Uni level and tried to keep going with a local side but eventually called it a day in my mid-30s when a 19-year-old ran rings around me. No fun at all. I'd dropped back from winger to full-back by then but wasn't enough, legs had gone.

Bravo for still trying to play. I can barely walk the next day after a 6-aside match. Have to make do with golf and paddle(!) these days in my 40s. Guess the early years beer and cigs didn't aid sporting longevity.

Interesting to read the level TWers played at. Some at fairly high levels.

It's the same when I attend, but recently, I've been watching the clock as much as Everton, trying to use psychic powers to run it down!!

I played to a high standard, but my lasting memory will always be my trials at Bellefield, even though I didn't cut it, but it was an experience.

Wasn't deemed good enough to play for district or county level but ended up playing twice for England FA Colts XI whilst at school.

First game played left back and had an assured game, so much so that unknown to me, some more scouts from South London clubs were brought in to watch the games. They needn't have bothered if they'd just come to see me as I was given the run around by the right winger. I was completely out of my depth and was taken off after approximately 20 mins. The only redeeming feature of my performance was that it was nil nil when I went off and our team then lost 2 nil. Definitely left back in the changing room was the true state of my ability that day !

I sort of stopped playing senior football at about 25 due to work commitments and being only able to play once every 3 weeks wasn't fit enough.

I restarted playing when I was 30 and had lost whatever talent I had possessed. I would have easily fit in to the current Everton team as I seemed unable to control the ball or pass the ball successfully more than 2 yards. Had lost the strength in my legs...

I gave up and about 5 years later started playing 5 a side footie and spent most of the time being run ragged and going around in circles. I gave up for the last time when I started deliberately kicking/fouling the opposition and my last memory of playing was effectively sending myself off before the ref did...

It's good to talk about the game we played and support, no matter what level.

Saturday is coming. I feels like an eternity since the last one. I'll see some of you around County Road and then I'm back up for the evening kick-off against Wolves.

In between, my Chelsea cousin is taking me to watch Chelsea on the box, with his mates, who seem to have adopted me!!

Every year, the first XI would reach and win the Lancashire Grammar Schools shield. We would go en bloc via Corporation buses to Liverpool University or Penny Lane.

Each year, the association president would congratulate the school and then thank the school for allowing the other schools to take part in the competition, such was their dominance. The team was coached by metalworker teacher, Jimmy Dewsnip who had connections with the Blues.

I was included in the Under-15s school trial and played at left back for the 'possibles' versus the 'probables'. Into the second half. a corner comes in, a flash of the right foot, a screaming volley into the top corner, keeper well beaten Bloody own goal wasn't it?

I turned to playing basketball which was just taking off in schools at the time!

Hearing applause as I picked myself off the floor, I assumed I had defended the corner succesfully. Seems not. :)

Biggest regret for me though is when we had the chance to sign Viktor Gyökeres from Coventry and missed the opportunity due to our finances.

I never even got close enough to say hello. Every time I tried to play him, he was just gone. People were actually laughing out loud in the stands. I was subbed off around 40 minutes because they literally thought I couldn't make it to halftime. Ultimate embarrassment.

And because he left quickly after the game, I never even got to meet Hugo.

He did get a chance in the Premier League, finally, but flopped at West Ham. He's now carving out a pretty good career in Serie A.

Does Per Krøldrup warrant a mention given the title of the thread?

Ian, I never managed an own-goal. I went close on one occasion. The keeper had been done, so instinctively, I took up a position on the line. As the shot came, it hit my shin and came onto the post. Fortunately, it went the right way and I cleared.

Koeman and Walsh, got the ball rolling and I don’t think we have ever recovered from winning that transfer window🙈

They all came with different things. Or worse, too much of the same!!

If you don't laugh, you cry.

I used to play 7 days a week at a very basic level but to a decent standard - I was fast and could hit a shot. Used to play right wing or the modern equivalent and the best team was 'juniorish' team that had a 100% win record one year. That team included nobody who went on to better things except perhaps Vic Marks who became an England cricketer.

More recently it's been 5-a-side before I stopped playing about 15 years ago aged 55ish. Last year, aged 70 (but reasonably fit) I joined a local walking football group that had started up and it was staggering. Great camaraderie, Incredibly good work out and actually hard not to commit the obvious foul by breaking into a run. Do that 3 times in a game and the team automatically concedes a penalty!

It's far more demanding than one would think and (not necessarily to its credit) there are the usual tally of injuries - myself included with a medial meniscus tear last year which was 20 weeks on the sidelines. I suppose at our ages we will be more susceptible.

Anyway just thought I'd ask as no-one has mentioned it. We all move on past our physical best (despite what we like to tell ourselves) and as much as anything else, for a number of people, there are immense mental health advantages - I have seen that first hand - and as the fastest growing participation sport in the UK (I've heard) is a great option for those of us who have been missing playing the game.

Ps...is anyone else having problems with the functioning of this website...like constantly asking for cookie acceptance, edit button not working, jump to last post button not working etc etc?

My father and Uncles had played at higher levels which included Soccer and Cricket.One Uncle in particular was exceptional.But they all suffered bans from the GAA.My father for attending a Soccer International in Belfast.He was about to start in a Final when he noticed the bus conductor, of the Belfast Bus, a opposition supporter, in discussion on the sidelines with Officals.He was called of the pitch and banned.

In that game on Highbury Fields those Youths put into practise what I had drummed into me by my father and Uncles.There main player acknowledged I did know what to do.They whipped the Company team, though alot younger.

Like everybody I had some shockers.

There are absolutely dozens of highly technical midfield players moving in particular - many of whom flop unfortunately.

But Vlasic stood out in that league at 19 and in youth internationals and was always destined for a big club move.

Doubt Koeman had heard of him but then that wasn't really his job.

There is a GAA club near to me and when we were in the Sangers at Crossmaglen, we used to watch them on the pitch out of the back.

My local Irish Pub often puts the matches on. I have to admit, it confuses the heck out me. As not being educated, the players seem to be able to do everything!!

You can probably inform me better, but it seems closely linked to Australian rules football??

I believe that, if you haven't got a method, you are always going to fail, and although people will argue differently, I believe if you have got a method, then you have got a very good chance of succeeding, just as long as you have got the inclination and the ability.

I've said it enough, I'll always say it until I'm blue in the face, and that's why I'm hoping the Friedkins have got a long drawn-out plan along those lines🤞

Still, he obviously is a useful player and he won't be the last forward from Italy to struggle in the Premier League.

They all seemed demoralised soon after joining - probably because they could see it was a mess and unlikely to work out

I'm looking forward to the match day thread being posted. It feels like an eternity, however there has been some good conversation to keep us all occupied.

I'm travelling up early, as I'm going to Allerton Cemetery first to lay flowers on my Nan's stone. Then onto Goodison and the usual haunts. Back to London the same day and then off to my Cousin's in Essex on Sunday, before heading home.

Even by my standards, that is some round trip!!!

At 66 I'm one of the younger and certainly amongst the fittest, if not the fittest, so I'm loving it and even getting tempted back to the "proper" game. Its not actually limited to walking - if you can run, you can, but its pretty contactless - no slideys and no tackling from behind...and no over head height in the winter.
In proper footy, I once "marked" Taribo West whilst playing at Worldnet for Everton Vets. I was left back and he played right wing for Arsenal Nigeria Vets, our nemesis. It was the semi final. I stuck tight to him and was having a relatively easy time of it until he exploded - twice - passed me like I wasn't there and crossed for their two goals. I didn't stand a chance. They beat us but we got revenge twice in later years (I'm talking in the last 10 years btw) including in the final to win it. (he didn't play).

I've played against other pro's, Nicky Forster, Ian Pearce, to name but two, and with a Scottish centre forward who replaced Big Dunc at Dundee Utd, and scored against Rangers in the Scottish cup final - Craig Brewster. and they could all do things with a ball that even the best amateurs I've seen couldn't dream of but. Forgive me, the best I've played against was an aging, arthritic, bow-legged, Ray Houghton. He could barely move but was untouchable, simply standing in the middle and directing the game, pinging it to team mates with barely a glance. Younger tyros, determined to take his scalp, went flying past him in raking slide tackles as he shimmied his hips and sent them the wrong way. He took the "Kopites are Gobshites" banter very well with a smile and was a gent. But he showed me the massive gulf in class between a top pro and the best of the rest.

I wish I could still play proper footy but I'm enjoying a new lease of life with the "walking" footy. I recommend it.

I think that in some of your earlier posts you suggest that most Premier League clubs just go out and buy replacements rather than developing their own players. I agree that now has become the norm, but that raises the question: If we are producing so little talent from our academies is it worth the cost of having one?

I know some will say that the sale of Rooney and Barkley justify having academies… but does it? I know Keegan when managing Newcastle said scrapping their academy system should be considered.

Chelsea used their academy to buy top young players from around mainly Europe then as they developed they were sent on loan to mainly other Premier League clubs, which meant these players weren't good enough to get in Chelsea's team but were getting Premier league experience elsewhere while not costing Chelsea a penny in wages.

Then, when the loan came to an end, they were usually sold to the club they were on loan to or brought back to Chelsea to join their first-team squad.

I know Moshiri has become enemy number one but he was badly let down by the people in charge of signing players.
You could argue if the player signings had been better we wouldn't have had the turnover of managers and players that has occurred.

In the end, it's all about results, if they are positive, everyone's happy.

With regard to Kean, as a young player you have to be a pretty special player as a forward to get a regular place in a Premiership side. He looked decent without being special, but theres a lot of different factors that can happen that prevents him being at his best.

Brian & Robert, I've always maintained that if the development system was fit for purpose, clubs wouldn't have to go elsewhere. Look at every Premier League club. Every English club for that matter.

Was it Brenford who, a few years ago now, got rid of theirs… only to find out that being in the Premier League included the requirement that they maintain an Academy and put forward teams to complete in PL2 and the U18 development league?

You could argue that the money is largely wasted… however, from a PSR perspective, academy costs are exempt and do not count toward the balance sheet for calculating PSR losses.

No doubt the numbers are closely scrutinized but surely it should not be beyond the wit and wisdom of our beloved club custodians to figure out ways to absolutely maximize such allowable deductions in our favour?

No??? Thought not!

We, like other clubs, all need to develop young players to avoid an unsustainable transfer market.

That helps to create a flow of quality players to the first team - or for sale.

If you have a player of outstanding talent at 18 / 19 then play him - as most clubs do with players who go on to have England careers etc. Like Mainoo, Lewis and Alexander-Arnold for example. Or Ball, Jeffers, Dunne, Rodwell etc.

If they're not quite there then put them out on loan at as high a level as possible. The experience helps them en route to the first team - like Gordon. Or demonstrates enough to get a fee - eg Simms and Cannon.

Without experience, Dixon is probably best sent on loan. In the meantime we can see if Patterson is any good.

But really neither Patterson nor Dixon looks likely to be a top class right-back any time soon. Surely then if we have some money to spare we buy someone genuinely good. Like Sildillia or Dedic or AN Other.

I don't want okay players. I want excellent players.

I am considering walking football when I move down to Dorset. Some who last saw me playing football would say walking football is ideal for me as that's all I was good for. :)

Brian #176. I work with a group of Chelsea fans who still cannot believe that the Mo Salah who plays for Liverpool is the same Mo Salah who looked pretty average when he played a few games for them in his early 20s (they make similar remarks about the young Romelu Lukaku and the young Kevin de Bruyne). In fairness though they managed to make a profit on all 3 when selling them on.

Mark your game sounds like some sort of hybrid. No 11 a-side games here, and tbh on a big pitch that seems stretching things a bit. Most of our games are on indoor 5-a-side pitches but the occasional tournament outdoors on grass or astro.

Ian - you should give it a go. One plays at ones own level and it is good fun but can be knackering. We tend to play 2 hours, with 3 teams 15 minute games, 30 on 15 off so usually about 75 minutes of playing time. Our group started in March last year and we now have about 30 players including a couple of quite useful ladies ( they qualify at age 40). As Mark says, no physical contact in the rules but it does happen. Definitely no slideys. I managed a cracked rib this year (that was falling on the ball after a trip!) as well as the meniscus last year.

Great way to get to know people as well if you're new to an area.

What he lacked in skill, he made up for 100% in effort, harshly treated and made an example of for simulation ban.

Never quite made it, but one of those players you were willing on to score a goal. If his feet could work as quick as his brain, he could have been a contender.

Another player I would throw in the mix is Jelavic, unbelievable one touch finishing, got injured against Newcastle when he collided with the goal post and never seemed to be the same player, when he returned from injury.

There are similarities between Gaelic Football and Australian Rules.Though the latter is officially Professional. Ireland and Australian play International Tests under Compromised Rules.You will see on You Tube that it is not for the faint hearted.

Gaelic Football now is based Dyche like on high fitness levels, and a rigid defensive possession system, which for me has wrecked it as a spectator sport and it urgently needs rule changes. I far prefer Hurling to watch.

I am coming round to thinking that Dyche has problems getting players to operate his 1-4-4 structure, because of his negatively to push forward in support.

You were quite a Footballer Danny.

Kim#183

I have a friend(66) who took up Walking Football.I was astonished how much weight he lost and how fit he has become.It is properly regulated by Football Associations.

Robert#180

Dyche bases alot on committment to training.His stated objective is for Everton to be the fittest team in the Premier League.

You do have to wonder at the Professionalism of Young to stay playing at Premier League level for so long I think that Dyche's first port of call on selection is Professional Committment to Training.

Michael, yes, Brentford did and kind of went with the B Team model, although I believe they have re-opened the academy recently. Their teams used to train on the same pitches as my Hayes & Yeading youngsters.

Jelavic Brian. Fantastic for those first 6 months, when he was in the box, sweeping them in. And then the manager turned him into a corner flag chaser!!

Yes mate I have had problems where once I accept or reject privacy settings I can't "click" on anything else. Also a green cog icon has started appearing on the left of the page.

I've emailed the guys about it.

Cheers Brian, I just clicked on 'green' coloured icon halfway up, on the left of the screen and that seems to have done the trick.

Moshiri has never been enemy number one to me. I agree with you: other people were responsible for spending the vast amounts of money provided by Moshiri (and/or Usmanov?). They loved spending that money on transfer fees and ridiculous contracts; the trouble was they spent recklessly and proved that a fool and his money are easily parted.

Moshiri trusted the wrong people and is made the scapegoat for the absolute mess the club is in now. His legacy is the brand new stadium on the River Mersey, so that majestic stadium is what I will remember him for.

Dave, your last paragraph says it.

When he was played in the box, he either scored or the goalie saved it. I don't recall too many Row Z shots from him; he was totally wasted out wide.

Moshiri made a massive financial commitment to the club and will walk away having lost hundreds of millions. He made his biggest mistake when he left Bill Kenwright in place as Chairman after acquiring the club; he then let him put his supporters on the board. I think Moshiri said he only wanted to spend 5% of his time actually running the club?

Totally naive in many of his dealings, he was led a merry dance by football agents around the world. They ran rings around him and the DoFs (Walsh, then Brands). They knew better and should have protected his interests.

As you say, when we all sit in the wonderful new stadium, we should reflect that it was Moshiri who made it happen. I won't miss him, but I don't think badly towards him despite the recent trauma.

Like you say we do have him to thank for the new stadium, I doubt it would have happened if he had not showed up.

He still has to sell the club though, I do hope that does not go pear shaped.

But I agree with you on Moshiri -- I consider him a good guy but not very bright, and doomed to failure once Usmanov and his money were suddenly blown away.

K'ning 'ell even Allardyce cared. apart from that he was a lovely man

The only thing I will say about him in a positive light is he fought hard to have a 60,000 stadium at Bramley Moore, but was outvoted to have a lower capacity, yes he could have had kings dock and yes, not his money, but he told each of them that a 60,000 stadium would not have any empty seats, about the only thing he did call right.

Ukraine has not helped anyone. Losing Finch Farm sponsership and the USM cash has not helped. It still baffles me that we haven't replaced that income.

What does concern me is that we become tenants at the new ground, rather than homeowners. We follow the model of charging rent for something we should own.

Brian #200, if Kenwright "played Moshiri like a fiddle", how did we wind up with Benitez as our manager? I think you overrate Kenwright's influence.

It still baffles me that we haven't replaced that income.

It just shows how important that sponsorship was to us, and how poor our commercial department have been as our income took a big hit and we have struggled to regain that lost money.

It still grates massively that The Ukraine War and resulting lost sponsorship should have been such an obvious no-brainer mitigation for our PSR woes but somehow (probably because Moshiri himself and not a bigwig KC was putting forward the argument), the first independent commission was able to reject this on the ground of "normal business uncertainty". What absolute bollocks that was.

Kenwright probably wouldn't have sold Everton if this wasn't part of the sale, which obviously means that Moshiri's biggest mistake was buying Everton in the first place!

I heard it was Usmanov who told Kenwright to be quiet during one Zoom call when they were interviewing Benitez, telling him that he was the one who had not only spent a lot of money on Everton but intended on spending a lot more. Not that Benitez got any!!

I think football bored him intensely, and he thought it was a thousand leagues beneath him. Which does beg the question: Why on earth did he buy us?

I think there were good reasons, none of them related to a footballing ambition. I think moving and cleaning money was a reason; also getting a foothold at a strategically important place in the West.

I think Liverpool the port is set for better times, particularly with the decline in air travel. And football as a business is only going to grow.

He also picked the club up for a song. It felt like when he was spending, it was with the attitude: "Okay, here's a load of money, now leave me alone!"

Would be interesting if, after he sells, Moshiri were to come out and outline where he thinks it all went wrong. I really doubt though keeping Blue Bill on as Chair would rank highly with Moshiri.

If you think Benitez was a scumbag, how would describe Kenwright and Barrett-Baxendale?

It doesn't really matter because the past is in the past and the era of the longest period without a trophy will hopefully never be surpassed but it does leave me shaking my head when I read some of the opinions on this website which try and absolve the most self-centred and poisonous individual ever connected to Everton for the damage that he did.

Plucky little Everton, punching above their weight, and still people call him Blue Bill. Hurry up and get here, Freidkins!!!

I drove along Commercial Road before and, with the dusk beginning to settle on our city, I have to say the picture of the new stadium lit up in blue on the horizon looked absolutely fantastic, so thank you very much, Big Al – I just hope your mate doesn't blow it up!

Re read your original post. Crossnaglen was some spot. I went to see a customer for the firm I got a job with to sort out accounts when I came back from London. It was like the Wild West, wind whistling in my ears. The customer later known as Cuisine de France gave me a huge order. The firm I worked for would not deliver it, because they were afraid of losing their lorry.

The second time I went, I got caught up in a huge traffic jam. A bare-knuckle fighting competition was going on in the square.

Crossmaglen GAA later became All Ireland Champions. The Manager was supposed to be an amatuer, but was on £70,000 per year. The GAA changed after that.

Moshiri is the owner... they are the guys who write the confidentiality agreements... not sign them.

So he's more than free to tell his truth although I suspect he won't be arsed. He's made more than enough mistakes.

He'll be lucky to walk away with 10% of that.

Both Moshiri and his backer have lost hundreds of millions, yet Kenwright remained. The greatest mystery is why Moshiri persisted with him given his propensity for firing managers — unless of course it was a clause in the sale of shares agreement. He was nearly the death of us.

I have supported the club since 1960 and that man single-handedly caused more damage to the club than anyone I've known.

No mystery. Moshiri never believed that the Board mattered. It was the manager and funding and he thought he could deliver both.

Blue Bill & the Board could look after the 95% stuff that didn't matter whilst Moshiri would spend his time on the important 5% picking a name and backing them financially.

Koeman, Benitez, Ancelotti... even Lampard and Big Sam. There's a pattern there.

He had had enough of Bill's appointments and spending and thought he could do better... he only made matters worse. He lost the backing of his mate when sanctions hit and the money was gone. The backing was gone and he was too far in to bail...

Since then, it's been subsistence living and hanging on till someone, anyone, came up with an offer. His legacy will be forever a magnificent stadium – at least he has a legacy… his chairman cashed his in.

You seem to be saying that, prior to Fat Sam, Kenwright was responsible for the appointment and spending decisions?

That was never the case. Those big decisions were always under Moshiri's control.

Misfits, Mysteries and Nearly-Men, the Story of Everton in the 21st Century. There would be a great book in there somewhere. Would it be under Comedy or Horror stories though???

Big Sam was brought in by Moshiri to ensure Premier League status but it also, for me, saw the end of any involvement of Kenwright in managerial selection. I believe it was a failure of trust in each other with relationships being cordial at best in the end.

Both are culpable but the rot started long before Moshiri came on the scene. We will never read the true story of the past 30 years, too many confidentiality agreements (I bet the Wyness one ended not long ago) but, in the end, what facts we do have are not enough to proportion quantifiable blame to each, but together it makes unpleasant reading without adding the speculation of exactly who is to blame for each and every decision.

What matters is where we are now, how we go forward and how do we prevent it happening again?

There's very little to suggest that Blue Bill had much influence in even the early managerial appointments under Moshiri.

It was generally accepted at the time that Kenwright wanted to give Martinez another season. Moshiri sacked him.

Koeman was very clearly a Moshiri choice. I'm paraphrasing but he said something about bringing a "Hollywood" name to Everton.

And I seriously doubt Silva was on Blue Bill's radar.

Of course, we need to move on and learn from past mistakes but insisting on an equivalence of blame which isn't really there won't aid that process.

Next, you will be saying it was all done in spite of Kenwright's protests!

That would be an equally ridiculous argument to try and make.

Ancelotti's son gave an interview stating how strange his father found it when the chairman used to lead the transfer committee. No transfer recommendation would go to Moshiri until Bill had signed it off.

He chaired the board and the appointees were broadly his recommendations.

He was also at the table when every managerial interview and appointment decision was made.

So equivalence of blame? 100% right.

Thanks to ToffeeWeb I rarely miss anything Everton related but I missed that interview by Davide. I'm surprised given that it points to Blue Bill having such power that it isn't permanently pinned to this website.

It also contradicts Christine's suggestion that by the time Carlo came on board Moshiri had basically sidelined Blue Bill.

The interview Davide Ancelotti did stating Kenwright was responsible for all signings is a bit more difficult to find.

A link or a direct quote may add a little substance…

Davide Ancelotti:

"However during this time problems began, there was a number of disagreements with the Director of Football (Marcel Brands) on strategy.

He (Brands) wanted players which we felt weren't the right fit for Everton, in the end we came to an agreement on the players we would pursue but this was a long and difficult process.

The Chairman (Bill Kenwright who passed away in October 2023) would often sit in at these meetings giving advice which we found strange as this was something I had not seen at other football clubs."

Paints a rather different picture from what you are suggesting.

Thanks, a valuable insight. I always got the impression, true or false, that Brands was accommodating someone else's agenda.

Brands for me was essentially weak regarding his own self-determination, but with backing, he would push an agenda which was not his own.

If Brands wheeled out did not achieve the objective, then other parties were brought into play.

The level of manipulation in the club was brought home to me by the time preparation length led by Barrett-Baxendale put into countering the fan-lead review.

Bill Kenwright is 77 and has just a 1.3% stake in Everton... yet he cannot cut ties and wields huge power, as Farhad Moshiri looks for investment to boost the club's dire finances

Power and influence...

You're going to have to give me more than that if you want to play.

Invoking the Daily Mail... sure sign you're losing the argument.

Snigger at the use of the rag that is the Mail, but it was a piece specifically written to outline the influence, power and ties behind the decision-making in our club. I have yet to see any such piece that contradicts that view. Can you provide one?

No sniggering...my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Never believed in that.

Davide Ancelotti has basically said that Blue Bill wasn't the kingpin when it came to transfers but even when it comes out of the horses mouth...

Given the appointments of Koeman and Silva as known Moshiri picks, I can't see how anyone can suggest he wasn't in total control.

My view is Kenwright would probably offer opinion but, if Moshiri didn't fancy it, he went his own way. The hanging of Kenwright after his death is for his haters.

Not to mention that, if Blue Bill had any real influence Moyes would have been back. You would have been apoplectic... me, not so much.

But it illustrates how little say he had.

Sounds like an argument put in a reasonable and reasoned way, regardless of whether or not one agrees with it.

He did it openly too, whilst constantly blurting to the many gullible amid us and the acquiescent media that he was the No 1 fan, above all others.

He fucked up the Kings Dock stadium;

Backed that bent bastard Samuelson in a non-existent £billionaire buyout;

Sold everything the club used to own when he took over – only to expensively rent it back off its new owners (and just watch as the new stadium goes the same way, folks);

Abolished AGMs to maintain his accountability;

Took advice from the all but criminal Philip Green (describing him as "the Mozart of Money") whilst the club financially crumbled, to the cost of every genuine fan;

Sold out to a corrupt £billionaire's monkey to ensure the massive wealth of him and his family at our expense, again;

And then took 95% control of the entire club to further massively damage it.

And yet some people still don't see the reality of the damage we've had inflicted on us for years and years still to come as a direct consequence of his self-serving gross negligence and incompetence.

Very good point re Moyes – he would have been back in the blink of an eye if left to Bill Kenwright.

You're pretty much the voice of reason (sorry) on this site.

Hope all is well with you and your good wife.

Never sure who's in control here, either!

I've got a sandwich board but there's no way I'm getting that lot on it.

I just meant you didn't give me enough to argue with.

I could have expressed it better.

Brendan #236, and Moshiri has said that Chairman Bill was.

So I guess it depends on which horse you want to listen to.

When the board resigned but Kenwright stayed, Paul Joyce in The Times wrote: “It is shaping up to be another crucial summer on the pitch and Moshiri also believes that Kenwright's contacts and acumen will help Everton as he works alongside the director of football, Kevin Thelwell, and the manager, Sean Dyche."

He blocked the signing of Arnautovic when Moshiri had negotiated a deal and he personally negotiated the deal to sign Dele Alli with Levy. He had his hand in everything.

He ran that club and Moshiri was daft enough to let him do it.

Read what Davide said with an open mind,

There was conflict between the manager and the DOF and the Chairman sat in on those meetings at times in an advisory capacity.

I just don't get the scent of a guy who was running things.

Now I'm going out for my early morning walk unencumbered by any Rhodesian Ridgebacks and expect to see a fulsome apology when I return.

No quotes just "going on memory". It's one thing to forget something. It's another to remember something that didn't happen. It`s there in clear quotes that the Ancelottis' differences were with Marcel Brands and his choice of players.

I think most Evertonians will have read the direct quotes from Brands which prove he was pulling the transfer strings. For me, direct quotes trump hearsay and guesswork all day long "Kenwright was there to advise"... So was young Mr Grace.

Christine.

That article from Ian Ladyman? Really? The cheeky bastard has several nasty swipes at Evertonians before going on to spout unsubstantiated drivel. Look where he gets his information from:

"Friends and people in football who are fond of him"

"One senior executive of another big club"

"According to those who know him"

"one long term ally"

"According to those who know him" - Again

"The experience of one football figure"

"said to be disillusioned" - By who ?

"A former Everton insider"

"Three premier league club spokesmen"

"Another source"

"A football source"

"a former Everton scout"

"Former Everton managers"

"The chief executive of one Southern club"

"One friend"

"Boardroom guest on match day" _ Hehe

"One premier league chief executive"

"Sources reveal"

"Sportsmail is told"

"Some supporters"

"Reflects his ally"

Convincing…

Which one is worse depends on your perspective. Strange how suddenly those with one perspective are labelled haters by the other now, revisionism is alive and well amongst some ToffeeWeb posters.

For the record, some of us "haters" were proven correct in our beliefs all along... for goodness sake, look to the future but don't forget the reasons for the mess we are in.

I'd say that the weight of evidence via quotes over the years is very much that Kenwright ran everything regarding transfers. In an era where the club was dragged down to the very edge of existence, there was one common presence and that was Kenwright as Chairman, the position where the buck stops on all issues.

I believe that Brands was proven to be competent in many jobs but Kenwright was his boss at Everton.

Thanks...I think.

No I'm not particularly forgiving towards Blue Bill. I'm not sure what the collective noun for Football Chairman is but I think "A c**t of chairmen" wouldn't be very far away. And Blue Bill is no exception.

My problem is I think there's so much bile and disinformation peddled by people who are frankly evangelical n their "Bill is to blame" message that it doesn't allow for measured debate.

I don't buy your misremembering of the Davide A. interview. In fact it rather illustrates my point. No real criticism of Blue Bill in the article...yet for some reason you remember it as damming of the man. If you hear a slogan long enough...

BTW I wasn't always this mature...so there's still hope for you & Colin.

Not great today though.

Although that doesn't mean I agree with you on the article, as you are stretching the logic there. Try remembering something you read a year ago!

No it wasn't great v Brentford, and we can't afford many more of them. We are 8-10 points lower than we should be because we can't close out games.