A Positive Step Backwards

We are at a frightening impasse on the footballing front. Morale has been poor all season, the pre-season preparations were farcical and we started the season looking under-cooked.

Add in that there are a raft of players who are out of contract next season and motivation does not seem a key factor as they will likely know that a new contract won't be getting offered.

Your suggestion regarding Moyes on a short-term deal seems plausible; he may also be needed to ensure that the first season in the new stadium is about bedding in and stability. The option of continuing with Dyche and hoping that things will be okay is diminishing by the week.

If it goes badly, we may well welcome the New Year with around 12 points. Dyche's position would be untenable then. Critically, we cannot approach the December opposition like anything to date. It would make Moyes's "knife to a gunfight" approach look strategically brilliant.

Dyche has nothing to lose. We have everything.

Yet another in a long line of coaches and / or players who seem to get better the less we see of them. How soon we forget?

Moshiri has left the building and won't do anything. TFG haven't got their feet under the table yet so can't do anything... not to mention they're rumoured to be eyeing up Lampard at Roma, for fuck's sake, which is a worry as to their judgement.

Yes, I know the football's shite, but Dyche will plod out his 38 points (or more?) over the season while simultaneously boring and pissing us all off.

I'd rather have Mourinho, if we have to have an over-the-hill replacement

I'll let Traffic have the last word...

40,000 headmen, they couldn't make me change my mind
If I had to take the choice between the deaf man and the blind.
I know just where my feet should go and that's enough for me.

Christine, you have GOT to be kidding.

You're planning to write off the season at the halfway mark? Good god, how negative can you get?

I would have thought you'd have learned better from the last 3 years.

Hope you don't mind if I spend the winter and spring throwing that one back at you.

There are still two teams without a win and, by the admission of most Saints fans, it would seem there should really be 3. With a manager with any tactics or man-management at all, we would have won that game comfortably. Even with Dyche, we very nearly did.

I think we will be okay despite Dyche, not because of him, but there is no harm in making sure by getting rid of the guy at the earliest opportunity.

Given the way we are currently playing, I am happy to wait for your brickbats. Dyche has to go... the risk scale is tipping too far and frankly I have zero confidence in him suddenly finding it.

Moyes is a No for me. He's the past. I'd like to see the club move forward. Who that is, I have no clue.

I know the takeover isn't yet ratified, but surely The Friedkin Group can influence in the background?

Who would have seen the recent Manchester United appointment coming? There are bound to be a few out there.

I don't believe that Moshiri himself will run the risk of this deal collapsing over Sean Dyche.

For me, Danny, it's time for a safe pair of hands until the end of the season and dour boring Davy is, if nothing else, a safe pair of hands. In the summer is the time for the club to really start to move forward.

The change has got to happen asap. For sanity's sake.

I don't think that it is an issue though; I think that the takeover and its aftermath will mean no change in manager this season. What a dreadful thought?

But has anyone seen any improvement in team performance since Dyche arrived that has you feeling we will be anything other than relegation candidates until it becomes inevitable?

I am sure Dyche would acknowledge this and understands he has to do better. Soon.

I'm convinced Dyche thinks he's doing a grand job, and keeping us up is all he has to do.

He's probably booked his holiday and is thinking about how he's going to spend his big pay-off, his constant excuses and blaming everyone and everything but himself stinks of mediocrity and a man totally out of his depth in the modern game.

I work in the NHS, we had a new service manager whose opening statement to our team was "Don't come to me with problems... come to me with solutions".

He was not enamoured when I said "Isn't that what they employed you for, to find solutions?"

Dyche is a perfect example of the Peter Principle.

With the fixtures we have had, we were always likely to be in a false position in the table but, considering the acquisitions, that should have been in the top half of the table. Forest have had a similar start with the exception of Liverpool and have really made the most of it.

Unfortunately, the false position which is worrying Christine now means we now are deep in the shit and you get fans panicking and calling for options like Moyes

TFG now have a problem. I'm sure they would have appointed a progressive head coach as soon as they walk through the door as they wouldn't have thought we would be operating where we are.

But because of the timing of the likely takeover, no coach would want to come in at the start of December considering what's in front of them.

The problem with Dyche is that he thinks like a relegation manager; the benefit of Dyche for our predicament now is also that he thinks like a relegation manager and targets those teams likely to be in around the bottom.

His wins have come against Palace and Ipswich, we drew away to Leicester and, although we lost away to Southampton, it's a game we should have got something out of. His anger and gripes about the referee were probably a reflection that this was a game he earmarked to earn points.

We can't sack him now but it might not be a bad thing. We have home games coming up against Brentford and Wolves and he will have targeted those games as 6-pointers.

The hope is that he delivers and then picks up a few points in December so that a new man can come in perhaps in the middle of December so that he can assess the squad and what's needed before the January window.

Hopefully we are in a position to appoint someone that is not a panic measure and that the owners have already lined up.

Help me here out I can't think of anyone.

I dream about getting up to that level.

Whoever the manager is, they would immediately recognise the squad is a relegation outfit and do a Dyche/, Moyes or Allardyce and hold on for dear life.

No one is going to try and transform these players into an attacking outfit it would be suicide. No realistic alternative exists without better players.

The sooner the delusion of a miracle worker coming to improve things vanishes, the better. Fans can then get back to supporting rather than savaging.

I'm convinced he does, or he's convinced himself with all his ‘didn't know what a difficult job' it was shite, whilst he banks 5 big ones.

Also his conspiracy theories, I can be as biased as any blue but that wasn't a sending-off in a month of Sundays, it's a yellow card. He's just making a fool of himself.

He is just diverting attention away, or trying to, from the real critical questions… such as Why no Branthwaite?

If the manager is as irrelevant, as you seem to think he is, then why have a manager at all?

His tactics, team choices, subs, press conferences, confidence building, man management and ability to get the most out of players stinks to high heaven.

That said, I think things will change in the next few weeks: Branthwaite will be played, Beto will start, and players will be coming back from injury. We certainly have, in my opinion, a set of players in the squad that should be performing better and getting better results; that is on Dyche.

But, to be fair, people seem to be forgetting the points deductions in Dyche's only full season – we should have finished 12th – that is an indisputable fact, I believe!

The football is dire, the feeling unhopeful, but he and his staff – regardless of what you think of them – have pulled it off before. They may do again.

We have no idea what The Friedkin Group are thinking, or how much power they have behind the scenes… or even when they will take over. So, for the time being, let's hope Dyche and his coaches manage to do what they have done before, and turn it round.

I am as exasperated as everyone with long balls to a lone striker – but history tells us Dyche can turn things around, albeit from problems that can largely be attributed to him and his staff!

Dyche knows he would have been out on his arse long ago if someone was in place to actually sack him and be bothered to find an alternative, but once again there are worse teams who will save our bacon.

We're back into completely joyless land. You need to be a serious masochist to watch Everton; even when we win it's quite dull (Ipswich).

I'm sure Dyche would say what do you want, boring draws and the odd scrambled 3-points or getting battered every week? I do believe we have a better squad than last year but he's not getting better performances or results.

The likes of Ndiaye, Mangala and Iroegbunam have improved our level and options, but the team is so constricted by negative, one-dimensional tactics that they seem like robots most of the time.

I think, as soon as the new gang come in, he'll be gone, they've already shown they don't mess about getting rid at Roma.

Moyes for a short period? Why not? But if he does okay, then you get into the sticky subject of offering a long-term contract.

We need a complete reset, we look like such a dinosaur compared to the likes of Brighton and Bournemouth at the moment, a club that thinks it has a god-given right to be a Premier League club.

The App wasn't responding. The website wasn't responding, so I just phoned the box office. All sorted, but I'll be glad when this club becomes more professional. And I am not having a pop at the ticket room staff. They were really helpful.

‘Moyes for a short period? Why not? But if he does okay, then you get into the sticky subject of offering a long-term contract.'

He would have to do much more than okay to entice my support for a longer-term contract, but wouldn't that be a nice problem to have for a change.

I think here and now, until season end and season end only, he is better than Dyche, much better.

Anything less and he doesn't have the authority to get things done.

After the way Moyes let his contract run down, so we didn't get any compensation, and then tried to sign our best players with derisory offers, I didn't want him anywhere near our club again… but, for the overall good of the club, I've changed my mind.

He'd certainly be better than Dyche, that's for sure.

You can't compare newly promoted yo-yo clubs with Everton where anything beyond Premier League existence is a bonus. Pressures on coaches and players are infinitely smaller.

Come back in 5 years and see how they've fared.

You miss the very essence of the problem here; people mostly accept we will survive but they want it with music, a bit of a swagger and a flourish.

It ain't gonna happen with these players – no matter who is in charge.

Where you and I disagree is the limits of this squad. I put it at comfortably lower middle table as is, 10 points above relegation. Equivalent of Brentford or Fulham say.

I'm obviously not happy with that but that's reality. Dyche is putting that at risk imo. I don't accept that he is working wonders.

You must admit, mate, some of his calls were bewildering at the weekend and it can be fine margins that cost games; that's why he's getting paid the big bucks.

I have faith in Dyche and his management team to have us well clear of trouble well before Easter!

Everton never seem to have any control within a game, not even for small portions of a game, sometimes not even in an isolated attacking move. If they are as bad as they appear to be under the current regime, then we are knackered.

I think a lot of the issues are psychological rather than a total lack of talent. These players have had to jump a lot of hurdles to get to play in the Premier League, so they must have something about them, else they wouldn't be where they are.

This is where the management team come in, it's their job to be pro-active, positive and persuasive and allow the players to take responsibility for what happens on the pitch, whilst also allowing the players a bit of freedom to perform to their best.

It would be better and easier for the club if Dyche was able to string together some positive results in the next few months, but he won't do that by continuing with his current tactics. He has to have a good think about how and what he's trying to achieve and whether he can enhance his side's chances of winning points by altering his own mindset.

The Bournemouth and Aston Villa matches were not only very bad days at the office, but they resulted in Dyche reverting to type in the games which followed and we once again saw the one-dimensional game that has been the hallmark of his management style for his entire career.

It's next season that concerns me more, there's going to have to be a lot of team rebuilding. I hope Friedkin can put his hand in his pocket and is willing to spend plenty because he will have to. Don't be surprised if Branthwaite is sold.

Our style of play is secondary to the results we get, as far as I'm concerned; if we get points, I'm satisfied. With the chances we had on Saturday, we should have won, not lost.

How many managers have we tried? — and it's made no difference to where we are finishing each season.

Friedkin might want to try a different manager starting next season; that's fair enough but sacking Dyche now would be taking a very big chance and asking for trouble in my opinion.

To me, the options are to keep Dyche and hope he bores us to safety, or take a chance on an interim from within the club, and hope that he creates a front-foot bounce.

I don't envy those options, if there's anyone there to choose.

I agree with you Paul, but it's not much of an aspiration, is it?

For lovers of net spend, mid-table, around £200M over the past 5 years, mid-table stuff. He spent less than £30M in the January 2023 window but managed to take them from 1 point above the relegation zone to 7th in the table. Even better last season.

They've not really relied on their academy, only one player in the current squad. Exciting times for Villa fans.

On the statement of Moyes knows Everton, I don't believe he knows anything about the present Everton apart from the fans. This degradation of Everton FC can be placed firmly on the present ownership, not helped by the previous chairman and board.

David Moyes is known as a steady builder of teams, one that we will need once the ownership is in place, but I don't believe Moyes is the type of manager who can turn this club around right away.

I don't like Dyche's type of play, it's antique, but if you want a short-term manager, this is the type of manager we will need.

We can complain about Dyche's methods of playing, team set-up, and use of substitutions, but you can't blame him for the poor misses from professional players that other teams seem to capitalize on.

The problem now is we change the manager in the hope that he can change things around or you persevere with a manager who is used to this fight.

As I have said, I don't like Dyche's methods, but I don't want to see Everton made a laughing stock by being relegated. So the choice is: Do we take a chance that a new manager can turn it around? Or do we stick with Dyche? I think the club will stick with Dyche, at least until the takeover is completed.

Thing is, lower mid-table reflects the results we're getting, scrabbling a few points amidst unappetising football and some pretty grim results.

I get it's frustrating and the standard answer is change the coach but massive dangers hide there. If a new guy comes in and, instead of a new manager bounce, he rocks the boat and players go into shutdown, we are stuffed.

We are between the biggest rock and hard place ever and just have to see it through, in my opinion.

As for the calls for Moyes, as I've here and on other threads, my second cousin isn't for me.

I also really hope you are right and I am wrong.

Good debating with you.

Bill, for the record, Moyes took over from Smith and saved us from relegation, winning 4 out of the last 9 games.

The following season, his first full season, we finished 7th. Up from 15th. He was also named LMA Manager of the Year.

Not such a slow build, just saying.

Although Moyes did finally achieve successive top-half finishes in his 6th full season in charge. Maybe that build was a bit slower after all.

It would be decisive in my opinion.

If we're changing, let's look forwards, not over 20 years ago.

Thelwell might not have the power to sack Dyche but he needs to ask Dyche the question:

"Why not our strongest 11 and shouldn't we play with more positivity when playing a team like Southampton who are poor at the back?"

I have to give him credit also for last season and that has given him some credit in the bank but his one-dimensional plan to give possession away and keep the same 11 out there for the most part has backfired since the 5 subs rule was introduced and with the injuries we have suffered.

But recently, the players seem to be fed up chasing shadows with only 30% possession and being criticised for not being clinical enough in a game where we only had a couple of chances.

Dyche can criticise the officials, VAR and the players all he likes but the buck stops with him and his win ratio is the lowest of any Everton manager, which says it all to me.

As someone said recently, we are Everton, not Burnley, and there are no excuses.

Bill doesn't believe Moyes is the type of manager who can turn the club around right away, but he already did with us, then he didn't with Sunderland and then he did with West Ham. Make of that what you will.

Only once in 11 seasons (the infamous 17th) did Moyes finish with a lower points-per-game ratio than Dyche (1.03 vs 1.26).

Dyche is currently on 0.90 – something else for us to chew on.

I would love to be a fly on the wall with that conversation, Jim.

The reply would probably go along the lines of "Piss off, Thelwell, and mind your own fecking business!"

Nottingham Forest

He's not even here and splitting opinion.

I'm merely pointing out that he was a bit of a yo-yo manager for the first few seasons, which could be seen as a sign that building his team wasn't as swift as you seemed to indicate. However, I wouldn't claim it's conclusive proof either way.

I have very little interest in what Moyes may have achieved elsewhere, and have no desire to see him return – he's not the man who turned things around 22 years ago, after Smith's departure.

As for Dyche, not sure why you've dragged him into the conversation. If it's to say Dyche now isn't as good as Moyes was then, I quite agree.

Nonetheless, Dyche is who we've got now, almost certainly until the end of the season, and Moyes is most unlikely to feature on the list of candidates for Dyche's successor, whenever that occurs.

Keane is a dreadful centre-back, and for him to be keeping Branthwaite out of the side is completely unacceptable. The crowd won't stand for it, so this is a real point of danger for him.

It could even be his way of bringing things to a head so that he gets the push. (No doubt he's realised he isn't getting a new contract… if you're him, why would you want to stick around for the next 6 months?) He gets paid come what may.

Back at you, mate.

I don't think at all that TFG will leave Dyche in charge until the end of the season. They will fire him as soon as they possibly can.

I'd be amazed if they are not considering options right now as a way of protecting their investment. They have already acted in a timely fashion at Roma.

For the record, Moyes got West Ham out of the relegation zone into safety within the 2 seasons he was appointed, twice, and won a trophy. Look where West Ham are now.

I would have Moyes on a ‘until the end of the season' contract in a heartbeat.

Also, wasn't Moyes 9 points clear of the relegation zone with his 17th Position one-off finish?

What we wouldn't give to even have his worst season out of his 11 with us right now.

Either way, I'm a great believer in the "never go back" principle. I didn't think Howard Kendall should have done it in the '90s – even once.

The season that we finished 17th under Moyes, we finished 6 points clear of Leicester, Leeds & Wolves. We only took 2 points from the last 6 matches, as I think victory over Spurs in the previous match made it clear we wouldn't go down and the players somewhat switched off. We kind of "settled" into 17th place as a result. I never thought we were actually at risk.

Incidentally, we took a whopping 10 points from the first 10 League fixtures that season, so marginally better than our start this season under Dyche.

That being said, talk of hiring Moyes has cheered me up. Friedkin doesn't seem the type to throw good money after bad. He would have to pay premiums for both terminating Dyche and bringing in Moyes. We will have to be in the Bottom 3 before that happens, in my opinion.

I think it is likely we hover just above the other strugglers. The problem is the malaise. We all want it to be over and yet there is another episode in this sad season of sustained stress.

Hiring another firefighter will not raise this squad's performance. I have a difficult time seeing what feasible setup Dyche has not yet tried. The keyword there is feasible. That Dyche is somehow holding these players back is not feasible.

So we could get a few improved performances on the new manager buzz but would likely be back in this current situation with plenty of time for a cave-in.

I guess, thanks. I was quite despondent after the way we lost this weekend. Now, I am thinking I may have given up a bit early if Moyes is the proposed solution from the other side.

Lee Carsley
Thomas Radzinski
Alan Stubbs
Michael Ball
Duncan Ferguson
Kevin Campbell
David Unsworth
Thomas Graveson
David Weir
Steve Watson

We would have any of these players in today's squad yet somehow a team with this many decent experienced players found themselves in a relegation scrap under Walter Smith. Add in the burgeoning talent of Wayne Rooney awaiting and what Moyes inherited was not as grim as results suggested.

Walter was a broken man in the end but he left the bones of a squad most “steady Eddie” managers unburdened by expectation could create "mid-table" from and that's what Moyes did – at first.

When he started to create his own team, he finished 15th!! A derailment that would see his kids kidnapped now and not freed till he promised free Mars bars to all season ticket holders… for a month!!

The record shows Moyes doesn't change things much.

Arguably he sharpens things up defensively but his Man Utd, Sociedad, Sunderland and West Ham Utd (v1) sackings are evidence he really doesn't have much of an immediate impact. Even here, his first full season started at 7th and, a decade later, his average finish was 7th-ish.

I think the kids say “meh”.

My opening line comes from the same stable but with a distinct difference: I don't believe in Sean Dyche anymore.
To continue with support requires a massive bucket of faith in his ability and hope in his tactics. There is a big hole in the bucket where that hope is draining away and faith is replaced by puzzlement and frustration. In short, he has lost me and I worry.

The last season in Goodison deserved better than the worst football I have ever seen Everton play. How we got to this point under the stewardship of the dynamic duo and their errant board is well-chronicled now but, even so, it took a long time for the penny to drop.

A line has to be drawn under their tenure and it ends with Goodison's last match and the end of Sean Dyche.

But there is a problem here and now. The performances have been utterly dire, tactics infuriating and not working with players who are incapable of making it work and a coach who in any other situation would have been sacked for the performances and points tally today.

The balance of risk and reward is tipping as games are lost and performances get worse. Selections and set up refuse to change despite options leaving fans and players unhappy.

All the manager reflects on the noise around the club, another Burnleyism, rather than look at the facts and change.
Hence the problem. Sean Dyche plays football his way and refuses to listen to the noise.

We have had a relatively easy start to the season, but December is a major concern as we play 5 of the top 6 and Man Utd away. We have the Wolves and West Ham games prior to that but it's hard to see where many points will come from until the end of the year.

That's 7 more games. Can we afford to gamble or can we afford not to gamble? That's the issue and, whilst the timing isn't great regarding owners or takeovers, the risk to both Moshiri and TFG is significant drops in value and money relegation would bring.

Risk and reward; stick or twist; hope and pray. But, if we keep doing the same things, nothing will change.

Lastly, as I stated in the article, I would consider Moyes as an alternative till the end of season; he knows the club, the fans' expectations and he is a better manager than Dyche. It's unpalatable in contemplating his return… but then so is relegation.

I hated Walter Smith by the end, in a very similar way that it seems obvious that a lot of people on this website hate Sean Dyche.

Disappointing Walter had us playing some horrible football, just like Dyche has got us playing some horrible soulless football now, and it becomes very exasperating in the end.

Koeman is the worst manager I've personally seen at Everton (although Mike Walker was probably even worse) because he got quite a bit of money and yet still couldn't give us any identity.

Moyes was the luckiest Everton manager but wouldn't have lasted more than 3 years during any other era, although some people will claim he was the unluckiest Everton manager, and he would have easily broke the glass ceiling enforced upon him if Kenwright would have given him some money.

Have they recovered from deadly Dave's rescue act yet?

Dale #59 - “That Dyche is somehow holding these players back is not feasible”. Got to disagree with you there. Beto and Branthwaite.

If he had started both of them, we would have beaten. Southampton. As has been said many times, Branthwaite gets us further up the pitch and Beto showed more in his time on the pitch than Calvert-Lewin has all season.

These three incidents during the game I thought were very indicative of what Beto, raw as he is, has to offer:

1. He won the physical battle to get round their centre-half and would have been in on goal if he hadn't been fouled.

2. Although he probably should have scored instead of hitting the bar, he got in front of his marker to get on the end of the cross.

3. He proved he can control a football by the way he brought that pass down in his stride and beat the keeper hands down with a first time shot. Pity he was deemed offside because it would have been a candidate for goal of the month.

If he doesn't start these two next week, it will be criminal.

"If he doesn't start these two next week, it will be criminal." I think that's the point, it was criminal he didn't start with Branthwaite, and I agree, if both were on from the start, we would not have lost that game.

So if we can now bolster the defence with his return, why can we not play the same way we did v Villa or Bournemouth and attack?

The same players, different tactics are not working. Include Branthwaite and change the emphasis back to attack.

Patterson, Dixon, Coleman, O'Brien, Branthwaite, even Beto, missing in action.. yet Harrison, McNeil (even though he hadn't trained all week through injury), Tarkowski (playing with an injury), Mykolenko, Keane etc all are ahead of anyone or anything else in the club despite the results!

We are losing games with 5 defenders on the subs bench, 4 of whom aren't even getting on the pitch as subs, and Branthwaite only getting on when we are losing.

We are creating nothing in the centre of the pitch, Doucoure and McNeil are not No 10s. We cannot cross a ball, the full-backs are not or cannot overlap; with the exception of Ndiaye none is crossing a ball.

Beto is a modern version of the Stracq... Calvert-Lewin has given up and I can't blame him.

Is it just me???

Even when they fail at one club, they move on to the next with the same mindset and tactics. That's why you have journeyman managers; the few elite forward-thinking managers wouldn't give us a second glance at the present.

Unless TFG know different – and that, right now, is as un-knowable as the result of Trump vs Harris, we each have our opinion.

You would like to think they have one of those 'First 100 Days' laundry lists. But until as it were, they pick up the keys from the solicitors, it's hurry up and wait – for us and Dyche.

Christine @66; O'Brien et al, Dyche and the whole Director of Football thing need to be on that list.

Who does what, who answers to whom? It seems a total waste for one to supply the other with a decent screwdriver, when he actually needs a hammer!

I can understand the case you are making; I just don't believe it. It's not the best interpretation of the facts.

I freely confess to not being the biggest fan of Moyes but since short-termist "let's just get into the new stadium while still in the Premier League" is a prevalent rallying-cry on most threads, I'd suggest that we could do far worse than Moyes.

Like Dyche, for example.

It's the reason I dragged him into the conversation, obviously. He seems to be a pretty shit manager by any metric; I didn't think there would be many who would disagree.

Arfield wasn't completely negative, saying Dyche's methods suited the more workmanlike players and often kept them in games. But there was a total inability to change, most notably in games.

What we are seeing now is diminishing returns and jaded players. Any intent we had in his early months (what has happened to our set piece threat?) has completely dissipated.

I still think he'll keep us up but it will be damn ugly and the Old Lady deserves a better send-off.

Now, should we toss that in the bin and gamble, or suck it up?

Too much of a gamble for me.

But if the rebuilding starts in the summer, then personally I'd still get rid of the negative self-serving knobend, but I think he'll stay and might keep us up. But it's only a might.

That's exactly my fear too...

No, the interesting question is what Friedkin's lot do with Dyche when they get proper control next year. If we really are in as bad a position as Christine suggests, then yes, they may panic and bring an emergency replacement in.

But that rarely leads to good things, so if it looks slightly better than the prophesy, I think they will keep Dyche to the end of his contract and then almost certainly bin him, having (hopefully) spent 4-5 months checking the market and availability.

Personally, I think the majority of the problem is with the quality of the squad, which is lamentable, the worst I can recall seeing. It doesn't help that quite a few have also checked out, Moshiri style...

So replace him with Moyes now and hope he has better weaponry than a knife in his arsenal since those fixtures are his classic "knife to gunfight" games?

Stay the same and we cannot expect any different from what we have been subjected to. With every passing game, our chances are less. Do you believe in his ability to turn it around or do you think he is a busted flush?

As Ed said, at some point, if it goes on much longer, it gets much harder to recover.

Relax!

Six words: What the feck is that about?

Phrase of the season so far, Paul Tran: "Bore us to safety". Perfect. In a nutshell.

Friedkin has no previous connection with Everton or Moyes, and he will not give one ounce of consideration to somebody whose primary qualification is that our fans remember him doing a good job here more than a decade ago — a job that was followed by three quick disasters before his next success.

Nor is there any reason for TFG to hire an interim manager at all. I believe if the choice is made to change managers, it will be done with permanence in mind, and if the new club ownership believes Dyche must go, I'd bet the choice of his replacement has been made already. Friedkin is not a guy who dithers (Moyes reference intentional).

Mark #75, I wrote those exact words this week. Moshiri can't make any such decision in the final weeks of selling the club without blowing a hole in the transaction, unless Friedkin signs off on the decision.

Stu #72, he'll be giving the funds to Thelwell. The DOF does that business, not the manager.

But if they both believe it's in their best interests financially to replace, then it's their decision. As I said before, it's about the question of whether they believe (not you or me) that persisting with Dyche threatens continuance in the Premier League, then a decision would be made. Their evaluation of risk. TFG is buying a Premier League club, not a Championship one, stadium or not.

Lastly, Moyes, if an interim manager, is a possible option, then so is Moyes, as much as I would dislike an interim appointment, he is available. Oh, and his primary qualification apart from availability is also he won the Europa League in 2023 with Wet Ham Utd. A little better than Dyche, wouldn't you say?

It's all opinion, Mike, we all want to see Everton playing in the Premier League next season, on that we agree; most would agree Dyche is not the manager the new owner needs. So it all comes down to when, why, and who replaces him?

Personally, for me, he is a liability, a risk that keeps growing and, as Ed said, I hope we don't wait too long… like Burnley did.

‘I don't like the claim of knowing what the majority think but there does seem a leaning toward Dyche seeing us safe albeit in an eye-watering painful way.'

That's not how I'm reading it at all, Barry, I think the majority seem to want this guy gone now and are worried that, like Ed said, we leave it too late.

The debate now seems to have moved on to who replaces him and that's where the differences lie – not whether Dyche stays or goes.

I kind of meant indirectly, O'Brien being the example – Thelwell could spend £100M on players Dyche won't use.

Then we also have the question of whether Thelwell stays.

Good post, BTW.

As it stands, I see us picking up very little in December.

You never know we may get a healthy 'new manager' bounce or the players may start to play with more confidence and energy.

We may not, but at the moment the players looks beat to me so what's the gamble? We're sticking on 16th here hoping that's enough. I think anyone could do a better job at present.

So he should be able to sack him, right?

His piss poor preparation to start of seasons, his poor sub decisions, his inability to improve players, and what we have got he doesn't use.

He's never going to start Patterson, he wasted Onana, he's benching the brilliant Branthwaite, Dom wants out, and he hasn't really got a plan for Beto or O'Brien.

And that's what grates me. We've had bugger-all money to spend, and have sold off better players in Richarlison, Gordon and Onana.

His response is to not use the millions we have sat on the bench twiddling their thumbs – keeping his favourites on the pitch.

Young wanting to stay in the game, and his 3 chums from Burnley. His big idea: stick Michael Keane up front for the last 5 minutes.

Fuck off, Dyche, and take your shit coaches with you before it's too late.

Should see if Michael Ball fancies the job as interim coach… joking!!!

Christine at various. You're not alone in your thoughts. I hear enough of it around me at every match I attend. I always like to give a manager a chance, but we left it too late with Lampard.

Mark, I don't know what's going on at the club. Theoretically, Thelwell's relationship with the manager should be to collaborate on player recruitment and sales.

It should be down to our absent owner and his board (if we can call it that) to make those decisions. Maybe Thelwell can influence.

But let's not hold our breath until change happens. Change of culture, change of mentality throughout the club.

Meanwhile, my brother is transferring his season ticket to me for next season. I should be receiving an email from the club to pick my seat in the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

If so, if TFG are the new owners in all but signature, I would hope they can give Thelwell the nod. I'm sure Moshiri doesn't care anymore (if he ever did).

I'm also pretty sure that TFG have already lined up a new manager. Our Premier League status is critical to their investment.

How many managers have been involved in those battles? What other clubs have gone through more managers?

My brain is a train wreck at the moment. Are we cursed, as some might say, or has luck been with us?

Arsenal the most consecutive unbroken seasons.

We have spent 122 seasons in the top flight, broken by 4 seasons after relegation in the 1950s.

Arsenal, 107 seasons.

I think that he is unlikely to be changed now until the end of the season so it will be a pretty unpleasant roller coaster ride until then. The odds are that we will stay up but it's not a certainty.

As you rightly say, not a certainty that we will survive, which is why I think TFG will pull the trigger at the earliest opportunity to protect their investment.

I also think that web pages such as this are important, especially at the moment, as TFG will have people monitoring them to get a sense of mood around the fanbase.

Martin (93), Everton bringing in Sean Dyche might not have suited you but to me, if he hadn't been hired, I think there was a very good chance we would have gone down to the Championship and we would still be there.

Sean Dyche might not be everyone's cup of tea now but his endeavours of the previous two seasons should not be forgotten too easily.

What even makes you think the multi-millionaire Moyes would want to come back to a sinking ship?
Dour Davie or Dithering Davie – he got those nicknames for a reason.

Agree with Dave at 95, Dyche has credit in the bank from the last 2 seasons. People are pinning their hopes on the new ground and takeover.

Remember Derby County, Sunderland and Southampton moving to nice new grounds then finding themselves in the Championship? A new ground doesn't guarantee quality football or safety.

A club takeover certainly doesn't guarantee quality football or safety.

Well, from where I'm standing, he's got a bloody great big overdraft.

Thanks.

1. So why should he be invested in our success?

And worse…

2. Is it at all likely that he wants the push sooner so as to receive a payoff – and avoid the ignominy of relegation (again)?

I find this extremely worrying.

Surely we wouldn't be so stupid to agree to that?

All he's ever done is get himself out of the messes he created.

And no, he gets no credit from me for avoiding relegation in a season we got points deducted. How can we accept that run without a win?

We will pick up enough points. I know many are pointing out the tough run coming up, but let's get West Ham, Brentford out of the way.

I know many are concerned, but football always throws up surprises. We beat Liverpool 2-0 last season and Bournemouth have just beaten Manchester City. You just never know, but keep believing.

Any match is winnable as much as it is losable. Just go in with the right positive attitude.

Totally separate, one of my nephews was at Anfield last night. He phoned my sister as he didn't fancy the walk to Sandhills. I said to my sister, as that is the closest station to Bramley-Moore Dock and we're building a fans plaza there, best that lot don't wreck it out of spite.

Sandhills, the north docks, Bramley-Moore Dock and the Liver Building. Taking back the city.

Another example of a rhetorical question, Paul! Here's another one: “What would Everton do?”

I have no idea what is written in his contract, but I'm sure they will weigh up the cost of paying him off versus the risk of relegation.

Why not pick your best defender? Branthwaite makes Mykolenko and Tarkowski play much better.

Why play Dwight McNeil when he hadn't trained all week? We needed a maximum pressing game against the Saints' shaky defence. A half-fit McNeil wouldn't be capable of that.

Lindstrom could have played as the No 10, which he did to great effect in Germany, scoring and making assists, and why Napoli bought him.

Why continually play Harrison on the right when Bielsa, who knows a thing or too about football, played him on the left?

Mangala and Gueye in midfield is, to coin a phrase, a no-brainer. I think they've played together just once.

Why have a go once Saints scored instead of going at them from the off? They hadn't won a game!

The way he put his subs on against Bournemouth cost us 3 points because he screwed up the shape of the team and had the ball coming back at us for the rest of the game.

By getting the sack, he maximises his earnings. He doesn't like us fans, that's for sure. A few, if not more of the players have had enough, by the looks of things.

We need maximum points from West Ham Ud and Brentford. It's going to be a miserable Christmas given those December fixtures.

Maybe just a precaution, as he was back from a recent knock? Or (more sinister) it's been agreed to sell him in January, so he will be played sparingly to keep him fit! Then again, feck knows with what Dyche (or lack of club leadership) is doing currently.

Re: Moyes.

A big No! I get so frustrated at how we always seem to look backwards. If it's not former managers (also Martinez and Silva been mentioned previously), it's former players (Richarlison etc).

For fuck's sake, other clubs look forward and elsewhere (Europe etc) for both, why can't we? As for our scouting system, is it only paid to look at relegated sides for imports? Blimey, Brentford, Brighton etc can do this, why the hell can't Everton?

Hopefully, we stay up. New owners, new stadium, new professional staff. Get a new manager (I don't know who) and start afresh. Slowly pay off debts, gradually build a solid team (unfortunately) settle for mid-table obscurity for a while (debts paid etc) then push on from there.

How about against the worst team in the league?

Calvert-Lewin and Beto up front with Ndiaye just behind them. Have 3 midfielders: at the moment, they would be Gana, Mangala and Doucoure.

With a solid defence, with a goal threat of Branthwaite, Keane, Young and Patterson.

Pickford in goal.

3 points.

After Wolves and Brentford, a tough run of games against Top 6 teams coming up, and Wolves and Brentford are no pushovers.

The imperative need to stay in the Premier League. We can't afford to wait any longer. I totally agree with Christine, the conclusion is obvious. Dyche must go and go now!

I'm not so sure about her position on Moyes… but I can see the logic in it. Unpalatable maybe, but the question is, is Moyes the best bet to keep us up, rather than a gamble on a foreign manager with no experience in the Premier League?

I fear the longer we stumble along with Dyche the deeper the hole we will have to climb out of.

That is why I favour a safe pair of hands until season end, that safe pair of hands is not Dyche.

Moyes on a short term with a big bonus for keeping us in the Premier League.

Maybe Moyes (I'd rather not) can give the players a lift… something needs to be done and the blame clearly lies with Dyche.

Moyes will get us another 8 wins.

That should galvanise the players to at least try but, given that no one can figure out what formation they are supposed to be in, it kills the game and the excitement. Seconds later, Pickford has it and it's from our own players.

Who next?

There's been a few articles on that already. But in terms of shorter term fix then Moyes is probably the most likely - not least because he's out of work right now. Potter too possibly.

Both would probably want a 2 year contract. Pros and cons - and I can see why this good article has used the headline of a positive step backwards about Moyes.

Alternative would be hang on and see if we could get the likes of Frank, McKenna or other more popular choices in summer 2025.

The Friedkins at Roma have not gone for more obvious managerial choices - in fact quite the opposite. Whatever the case, hopefully we can start 2025 with a greater sense of enthusiasm about the team and the club to coincide with the start of our BMD era.

We have 9pts from 10 games and have lost 1 game in the last 6 with that a game we should not have lost if we had forwards and midfielders who could put the ball in the net more often.

What were the expectations at the start of the season, not much thats what.

We sold a player Villa thought was worth £50m and brought in other players mostly on loan, we have downgraded the quality of our side for years know.

You can talk about style of play but if the players who after all are the ones who actually play the game are not of a required stadard you are not going to be successful.

We have Branthwaite and Pickford who are arguably top class but our others players are not.

The quality of managers and players is all subjective and opinions differ thats to be expected but I don't think its entirely fair to keep blaming Dyche for our failings.

Under Dyche, we have played some of the worst football I have ever seen at Goodison Park, and while it managed to escape relegation, it might not this season.

The manager is the most important person at the club: he sets the style the coaching, and the work ethic of the side. He has a big say in who we buy and sell, and he should oversee the pathway for youngsters to progress through the academy to the first team.

I would suggest that Dyche has struggled to do any of the above to a certain standard. His style of play over the time he has been here hasn't changed and results show his style isn't working, and his style is turning off thousands of Blues every week.

He has hardly been a roaring success in the transfer market, admitted on a limited budget. And his reluctance to give any youngsters any game time means there isn't a pathway for youngsters to progress at Everton.

A great example was young Dixon plays away at Spurs against not 1 but 2 pacy wingers and did a good job, yet hasn't been seen since.

Fortunately, it will never happen.

A name which I saw linked to us due to the TFG links was Marizio Sarri.

I remembered seeing a stat on Sky Sports of the top managers win rates in the 5 big leagues. On it were the usual suspects who were managing clubs like City, Inter and Madrid but quite high up was the name of Sarri.

I couldn't believe it and looked closer because I knew he was managing clubs like Napoli Chelsea juve (the exception) and Lazio.

He took over Napoli who were 5th with 63 points under Benitez He had a bit of investment but he took them to 2nd with 82 points, then 3rd with 86 and finally 2nd with 91 points. Not only did he bring them back to being a force in Italian football again but he improved them each year.

He then went to Chelsea who had a great manager under Conte but Abramavich was no longer investing fortunes in the club. Conte had finished 5th with 70 points. Sarri was disliked by the Chelsea fans as he was cut from the wrong jib. Despite this he managed to get them to 3rd with 72 points and win the Europa League.

He then went to Juventus which looked like a difficult job in following Conte's treble league winning achievement backed up by a quadruple of titles by Allegri. Sarri, despite having to revolutionise players from a winning philosophy for the past seven years to his Sarri -ball followed his predecessors in claiming the title. They amazingly sacked him because certain players didn't take to his methods with Ronaldo not happy to play centre forward as Sarri recognised his legs were going before the player did. Incidentally They haven't won it since.

After taking a year out he went to Lazio who had just finished 6th under another great manager in Simone Inzaghi. He improved them to finish 5th in his debut campaign before an amazing 2nd place finish, their best in over two decades. His final season however was his only sour footballing experience since he hit the big time with Empoli as he had a poor campaign with Lazio. After losing four games in a row the man with such integrity resigned as they dropped to 8th in the division citing that the players were no longer following his instructions and so it was best for the club to look elsewhere. The season was not totally devoid of optimism as they got to the last 16 in the champions league for the first time this century only to be pumped by Bayern Munich.

Maurizio Sarri would tick so many boxes for an Everton manager and would be a great coup for the club

1- ability to improve players and reignite them as happened with the likes of Dyabala, Immobile and even with Barkley and Lotus Cheek who excelled under him.

2-proven in the Premier League

3-took a small club Empoli with little resources up and steered them well clear of relegation

4- has often outperformed serial winners and elite managers.

5- has unparalleled achievements on his CV

6- would suit Everton as we are a club which support our managers, give them the freedom to operate as they wish, aren't egoistic and his humble, down to earth style would be welcomed here.

7- his football is a joy to watch.

8- only one season in the last decade which he didn't excel yet he still had time to improve it but felt it was right to leave

9-is currently out of work

10-Evertonians would ideolise him especially those rooted in the school of science

11-tends to improve teams year on year

Moyes or Sarri, who would you want?

He would be a good shout for Everton.

Some fans might be happy plodding along to 38 points but I'm not and a lot of our fans aren't either. Dyche is making me hate watching Everton and going to Goodison to watch his brand of football is absolutely soul-destroying; the players don't look like they enjoy it either

Impressive, and if we could get him on board mate, great. What is the link with TFG?

You're right, expectations were low at the start of the season, mainly because of Dyche.

Conor, you have convinced me, sign him up for next season.

Friedkin will want someone in place of Dyche next season I've no doubt. I'm not as down on Dyche as some on here, I think that includes you Conor and Nigel.

Here is one such report though I wouldn't know if this particular journalist has any credibility:

Maurizio Sarri to Everton: Report reveals former Chelsea manager's first concrete Toffees target amid Dyche sack talk

Also something I didn't mention in my list was how fit his teams are,

I believe, Raymond, that the inability to pass effectively or press as a unit or even finish chances is a symptom of a lack of confidence and that a decent man-manager would get much more from this current crop of players. Calvert-Lewin hasn't just turned into a bad player overnight.

Have I missed something? Don't we play Wolves midweek soon at home? Don't we consider that as winnable?

Let's face it, Chelsea is a merry-go-round so I wouldn't put too much onus on his departure from there.

Absolutely over the fecking moon, mate.

If that was the option, I'd happily thank Dyche for his efforts whilst advising him not to let the door hit his arse on the way out!

Conor #118, that's a good shout, and well-researched, although another manager you mention, Allegri, seems like a possible target as well. Reports have the Friedkins reaching out to both about the Roma job.

That article you linked also speculated that in connection with Sarri, Everton might pursue Piotr Zielinski, who has performed for Sarri as the distributing midfielder his system requires, and is now a benchwarmer at Inter. We'd also need to find a couple of attacking fullbacks.

I'm biased as a guy who used to watch every Juve game, but Allegri's accomplishments dwarf Sarri's, and he's a lot younger. He doesn't play the same attractive football but damn, he wins and wins and wins.

It's funny you should mention Allegri. He was the only predecessor Maurizio didn't improve upon. I certainly don't dispute that Allegri is top class and most probably an upgrade on Sarri yet I would just love to see Sarri-ball at Goodison.

I read one of your other posts regarding your research into the TFG. In it you seem to have a strong understanding of their financials and how ambitious they are likely to be. Now you seem to feel that Allegri would be a serious option. That all sounds really promising if you are correct.

With regards to Sarri, I feel he is a much-undervalued coach and therefore a more realistic appointment. I think most in the game would view Allegri as elite (note he was high up on that list I spoke about – which didn't surprise me).

What though impressed me about Sarri's time at Juve, which I elaborated on in the previous post, was that he still won the title despite them winning seven titles with managers who were machines (Conte and Allegri). He's basically telling players who are serial title winners that this football is wrong and we need to do it this way.

Sarri still won the title despite the friction he must surely have faced with the likes of Chiellini and Ronaldo and the mega egos at the club. Contrast that outcome to Scholari and Villas Boas at Chelsea. Two decent managers in their own right but basically got ostracised by the players who thought they knew better and not open to new thinking because it wasn't what had brought their previous success.

Sarri in my opinion is an unrealistic appointment given his credentials but because his face doesn't seem to fit almost becomes realistic. He is like having a girlfriend who gives you the greatest massages, cooks you the best food you can eat, would take a bullet for you, fills you with joy to your heart and something else is content, yet you are too embarrassed to show her off to your mates!!

Look at them for a laugh, but please don't get excited by them.

I totally agree with everything you say but would add that since last December we've only won one away Premier League game. I go to all the aways and, whilst I don't expect us to win them all, I at least expect us to have a go.

Dyche was happy with 0-0 v Southampton and appeared to be happy with just 35% possession. It's just unacceptable.

Onana was on Radio 5, this afternoon, saying he'd learned more in a few months at Villa than he did in 2 years at Everton. Why doesn't that surprise me?

We cannot afford to bring an untried foreign manager in; there just isn't time for him to adjust. So, despite my reservations on how he left us, I'd bite the bullet and offer Moyes the job, at least to the end of the season.

Surely no decent owner would ditch Dyce before his contract end, when the duration would be too short unless we were looking like going down. So, it looks like Dyche to the end of the season unless relegation is a real possibility. That is unlikely and more pain and suffering for those who have to suffer watching.

Telling to see Onana say that he learned little in 2 years with Dyche. What did we do to deserve this and could we have done anything to have stopped it? Did we call for managerial change too often? That was the real problem for me.

He clearly learnt how to take the world's shittest ever penalty.

As a more general point, I was browsing through all the comments I hadn't managed to read earlier and saw and interesting one from from Liam # 70 - summarising that Dyche has no Plan B etc.

The disappointing thing with this is that Dyche found a Plan B, C and D in his first half season with us - because of injuries, having to play Demarai Gray as a lone striker etc - the Bournemouth games where Garner had a stormer at RWB. We were still workmanlike and not especially fluid but we did manage to use the ball intelligently, got greater numbers forward, used the width better and swapped formations too.

The football seems to be more formulaic now that we have options than it was when we were desperate.

I do wonder whether Dyche has already been told his number us up - or whether he's guessed as much (since there's been no talk of a contract extension) and so he's lost some of his earlier oomph to impress.

I agree, he does seem to have almost given up.

They gave one joint interview to the AS Roma website shortly after they bought the club, and that was it.

If you think Moshiri was uncommunicative with the fans, wait 'till the Friedkins arrive.

When the going gets tough at Villa, even though he is surrounded by better players and a better coach, I personally think he will let them down. We will see.

I too have great reservations about asking Moyes to return. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't even consider it, but Christine's article put the issues clearly in focus for me and made me rethink my position.

Many posters on this thread seem quite blasé that there's nothing to worry about and Dyche will arrive on a white charger to pull us out of the mess we are in.

People accuse me of being ultra-negative, but I say they are burying their heads in the sand. Just look at the reality of the results and what we are being served up week after week.

Any sign that things are looking up? I can't see any. I don't take any pleasure in saying it but we have to change manager now.

If not now, when is the best time? After the next 2 results?Christmas? After the transfer window closes? When he finally loses the dressing room? Time is not on our side.

Sarri and Allegri are being mentioned, possibly good shouts from the start of a season but seem to be dependent on TFG's pull and approval, who incidentally have absolutely no status in Everton Football Club at the moment, but are merely potential buyers with a reputation for “dabbling”.

Our immediate solution is likely to be short term, we all know that, so if not Moyes, who?

I think Dyche is well aware that he does not have the skills or abilities to meet what will probably be shifted expectations after the takeover.

His attritional, dogged, suck the life out of the game approach will no longer be acceptable. In the way that it has been to an extent over the past few years given the circumstances.

I still believe keeping us up over the last 2 years gives him massive credit and I'll always be grateful for that.

But I do think he knows that he's not capable of moulding a more expansive, front foot, positive thinking team. And that the owners are aware of this too. Which could explain why he cuts a bit of a jaded figure.

One wonders, if the takeover is delayed for any reason, Moshiri might be happy to sell both for what he can get as a recovery ploy... all depends on timing I guess.

It's interesting to speculate on "The Special One" as well; TFG making a splash when they bought Roma. We have already seen the gameplan follow the Roma purchase, could they make a similar managerial splash?

I think you are right in your evaluation of Onana, to me he never rolled his sleeves up and tried.

Good footballer he may or may not be, but it's only half a story. No bottle, as we used to say...

Sure, you might not like his style but, one way or another, it's effective. He kept us up in his first half-season… without a striker! He kept us up on his first full season… despite 2 points deductions! And currently, we're not in the Bottom 3.

Okay, you might ‘think' we can play better. You might ‘think' we should be higher up but the table but the ‘ginger twat' nonsense is ridiculous and bang out of order.

He's doing his best. You might not like his best but he's doing his job and so far he's done it brilliantly with a terrible squad.

We can have it all ways: Keane is crap, Young is too old, Harrison can't cross, Calvert-Lewin looks disinterested, McNeil is one-paced… but we should be higher up the table and playing better football… you wot????

If the players were that good, they wouldn't be at Everton. Jarrad Branthwaite is pretty much our only sought-after player and he's being nursed back from injury after he broke down following his game against Palace.

Of course the style is crap – we can all see that. But the squad has been decimated by having to get rid of our quality players… so obviously we're left with the workman players.

Listen to Martin #93 claiming hiring Dyche was the worst move ever. Really? Really??? Worse than getting that idiot Benitez??? That clown was a stain on our club and was taking us down… but it's Dyche you have a problem with.

There's some absolute tripe.

It was ugly v Southampton but we had enough chances to win that… how about the players take some responsibility for a change?

I knew I would come in for quite a few adverse comments when I wrote the article, but its intent was not to be negative, not to dismiss his success in keeping us up and having to deal with situations around him and the club during his tenure, but to the fact that we are struggling and have been in my opinion right from the first kick-off of the pre-season.

No structure, no plan, no Plan A, never mind B or C. We were dreadful then and the team may now be fitter but we still have no impact in midfield and attack.

One tactic, get behind the ball, and do not engage to the final third. He cannot play a high press properly, has no overlaps, no creativity. His emphasis is on defensive effort.

I'm sounding like a broken record, but the pragmatic bit of me sees no improvement unless he changes. He is proving that he won't and therefore it threatens our survival in the Premier League.

The risk to TFG is as I said before, they want to buy a Premier League club, not a Championship one. It becomes then a matter of judgement by the prospective owners, should the current situation not improve.

Timing is everything, but December scares me, not because of who we are playing but how we will play. We can hope all we like that other teams will have off days and we get lucky, but the chances of actually outplaying any of them are remote.

Starting the New Year with around a dozen points fills me with dread and its effect on everyone – fans, players and owner – will be difficult to say the least.

I contend I am not being negative in my perspective, just that I am no longer convinced the tactics currently used will be enough to secure safety.

Well said.

His contract isn't going to get renewed, and he's got a horrific December coming with hopefully a Friedkin takeover complete. There's no way he will make it through all that. He's respected for the job he's done but doesn't have enough credit in the bank.

The best manager option? Someone who can take an unfashionable team forward. Develop players, and play with style.

Gasperini of Atalanta fits the bill to me. He's done well in a top league, not a Portugal where you expect Benfica, Porto or Sporting to dominate, but finishing top 4 against Juventus, Inter Milan, AC Milan, AS Roma, Napoli, Fiorentina with the 8th biggest wage bill.

Europe win; League finishes: 4th, 7th, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 8th, 5th, 4th.

As for the shouts of some posters, "Don't know what the worrying is about – we'll be fine" … well, frankly the arrogance of them words astonishes me, they really do.

Is that how low our fanbase has sunk now, that we actually think staying in the Premier League by the skin of our teeth is an achievement, well sorry – count me out, I grew up hoping Everton were going be fighting it out at the right end of the table.

For God's sake, we are Everton, not Burnley, yet this clown now masquerading as a Premier League coach actually thinks he's doing us a favour.

Reality check: there's dozens of managers out there who could get us improving rapidly with this squad of players – because it's actually not as bad as some would have you believe.

I wasn't making adverse comments about your article, in fact, I fully support it. It's me who has been accused of being ultra-negative by fellow Evertonians!

But I don't care, your analysis is spot on, no matter what Mike Gaynes says @4 above. I wonder what he'll say when ¾ of the season has gone and we're still deep in the mire?

Marco Rose anyone? Would be difficult to tempt him from Leipzig but a good young manager I'd say who's gone under the radar somewhat.

It's been said before, by myself included. But how apt are those words right now?

Expectation and belief. I hope Friedkin has read these words…

I have, over the years, learned via TW that the majority of us seem to be roughly singing from the same song sheet. Others may not be able to sing, read, or know which way up to look at the song sheet.

Regarding the dilemma or dichotomy that is the Dyche debate, many – including yourself – calling for an early decision to wield the boot now before it's too late. Very fair comment, to be honest – based on current performances, team selection, and ultimately results – which doesn't make good reading.

Now, who is going to pull that trigger? Moshiri has no interest beyond his selfish financial recoupment. I don't believe Thelwell has that power in his locker, but may be wrong, Colin Chong could well fall into the same category.

Many of Dyche's supporters are hanging clinging on to the precept that he has Houdini'd before and with points deductions too, will pull another white rabbit out of a hat!

Now, I don't believe in lightning striking in the same spot twice. While being possible, it is highly improbable, so can't be used as a yardstick for believing so!

In Dyche's case, I sort of feel sorry for him, inheriting a 'crock of shit', being misled by the biggest liar we have ever known. However, I think he is believing his own past good fortune will save him and, more importantly, Everton again.

That is too risky in my opinion, based on his current performance, team selections, tactics (?) – and I believe he has developed an arrogance, and unforgivably will never 'man up' and admit that he 'got it wrong'. No – he blames everyone bar himself!

A lightning strike is somewhat random. Never relegating a team with as sparse resources as Burnley and Everton is impressive

I think as Evertonians we have some delusions of grandeur at the moment. We've gotten rid of James, Digne, Iwobi, Richarlison, Sigurdsson, Gordon, Godfrey, Allan, Gray… and the best we finished with all of them was 10th – and that was with the world class Carlo in charge!!!!

But we hold Dyche to a higher standard and expect some scintillating football when the reality is that some of the football under Carlo was absolutely awful!!! The man sometimes played 4 centre backs as his back 4!!

If Carlo couldn't get higher than 10th with some genuinely class players at his disposal, isn't it time to actually reset our genuine expectations about what Dyche can achieve with much less resources?

Isn't it just common sense?

I think even the most anti-Dyche brigade would acknowledge that, yes, he had defied all the odds and guaranteed safety.

However, as I mentioned before, his arrogant self-belief thinks history will repeat itself. Results etc are indicating otherwise!

The clamour for Dyche to be sacked seems much more to do with the style of football, or lack of one, from what I can see. The assumption seems to be that his approach can't save us yet again, although I'm not too sure why.

If the takeover is completed soon and TFG have somebody lined up to supersede Dyche straight away, that could be a very positive start to their ownership of the club – assuming they make a good choice.

Of the names mentioned, I'd be much more pro-Sarri and decidedly anti-Moyes. However, they may be content to let Dyche fulfil his contract, confident that he will do the necessary, and they may make decisions about changes to take effect in the summer.

To me, common sense is trying to improve the situation before it becomes impossible to save. What Dyche has achieved in past seasons with a weak squad is very laudable but unfortunately is irrelevant today.

By the way, I think you get your facts wrong about never relegating a team with as sparse resources as Burnley or Everton. Didn't he take Burnley down a few seasons ago although they did bounce back the following season?

I wish he could muster enough points to keep us up but, going on his number of wins in the last year, his apparent inability to change his approach to games, his erratic and baffling team selections and substitutions, I just don't believe he can. He is sadly a man bereft of ideas.

So the only conclusion I can come to is that he must go. A gamble, I admit, but it's also a gamble to do nothing and hope things will all work out in the end.

Sam @157, may be on to something as usual. Liepzig play some sexy ass football.

And tell 'em, Mark.

Ben #151, same message, but I agree with you more than DK. You're both fun to read, though.

Stu #147, I don't think a single person here is blasé, or they wouldn't be posting so passionately. And I think you're flat wrong that the Friedkins have a reputation for dabbling -- quite the opposite, they are decisive and know how to close. In fact, it's their decisiveness on De Rossi that has them feeling the heat from the Roma ultras right now.

Christine #149, I'd say Sarri or Allegri would be a bigger splash than The Soggy One right now. His reputation has taken a pretty good hit.

Anyway, we'll know soon. Friedkin the younger will likely name a new manager at Roma next week, and then it's on to December for some very interesting events.

If it's a draw, they should both get the sack based on the principle of: "If that's the best you can do versus shite like [delete where appropriate] Everton / West Ham, then off you go."

Should make for an interesting weekend (sacked in the morning, you're getting etc etc) and International Break.

Dyche, Moyes, Lopetegui in a 'Three does not go into two' game of managerial musical chairs. Or even a Mad Max style cage and they can all bring their best knife to the ensuing bunfight. Strange days Indeed.

Still, not our problem, it's West Ham. We'll batter them and they can have Moyes with my blessing, we'll take the turkey from Turkey, Jose Mourinho to coach our pussycats.

He has earned a lot of goodwill the hard way as far as I am concerned, so he deserves a chance.

He is definitely a streaky manager, so it would be good to see him bounce back against West Ham. If he loses 2 consecutive games against fellow strugglers, then fans' unease will grow as our fixtures only get harder until the end of the year.

That is a natural reaction given we have had 3 years of trying to survive relegation.

If you look at the tail end of last season, we were sinking without trace until the likes of Burnley, Forest, Sheff Utd and Brentford came to Goodison. Granted we also had a battering at Chelsea and an incredible one-off performance against Liverpool where we inexplicably threw off the shackles in a manner that makes you wonder why we don't do it more often.

This season, we had a similar story... 4 straight defeats until Leicester, Palace, and Ipswich appeared on the fixture list... of course we also managed home draws against Newcastle and Fulham but, let's be honest, they were both comfortably the better team in those games and we were fortunate to extract a couple of points out of them.

There is a nasty streak of fixtures coming after Brentford.

And if we're in trouble after already having the 'good streak'... what is the best that we can hope for?

I know that Friedkin sacked Mourinho but, listening to Mourinho's comments of late, which include him saying "nobody watches the Turkish league", or "I think I would like to go back to the Premier League but at a club not involved in any Uefa competitions".

So, seeing it's rumoured that Friedkin is going to do a U-turn and reappoint De Rossi at Roma, could he do a U-turn and appoint Mourinho at Everton?

While I think probably the tea lady at Finch Farm has got more tactical awareness than Dyche, I don't know whether Mourinho is the right option given where we are in the league table.

Mind, the only thing that makes Everton attractive to possible managers is the salary they get, because there is nothing else that would entice many to take us on.

We have suffered for the last 30 years, despite having had a relative stash of money (all squandered) during that time. I suppose desperation, and the need for us to be a top club again, I would not be against The Special One if he was indeed appointed!

But I doubt whether he would have Dyche in his team of assistants. :-)

Mourinho also said that he wouldn't go to a relegation threatened club and that's what we are.

Since when does investing millions to buy yourself a football club transform you into a football expert?

They seem to believe they are automatically able to make valid footballing decisions with little in-depth knowledge of the game at this level or indeed of the needs and traditions of the clubs they buy. Hence football decisions they make are essentially “dabbling”.

It is, of course possible to be decisive whilst still dabbling.

I think Mourinho, with his previous with Friedkin and his reputation for being disruptive, wouldn't be a good choice.

His pattern has tended to be, come in, after 2 seasons, fall out with the owners and board and either resign or get moved on. Repeat.

If we change, and that will be down to the owners, having read Robert's recent detailed analysis and my knowledge of the Bundesliga, I wouldn't mind a punt on the Stuttgart manager, Hoerness.

But ultimately it will come down to the new owners, who will have their own ideas.

Andy @ 155, you can put me down as one that wants Dyche to stay till the summer and I think that includes Ben.

All our supporters want us playing lovely football and winning games each week but, as Ben has said, we keep selling our better players; you can't keep doing that and have a team that is challenging the best teams.

We ain't a relegation-threatened club. that's what Dyche wants you to think, and a lot have fallen for it.

Get rid of Dyche and we start climbing the table.

That's very true Paul, but unfortunately someone like Mourinho would just look at the table and judge us by that. Whilst Dyche is here, we are very much a relegation-threatened club.

It makes no sense to appoint a new manager now as any contract with the new manager is likely to be reviewed and ripped up, with further golden handshakes.

The new owners will want to mark their takeover with their own unveiling and take credit, hopefully, for the rise of the club. It makes little to no sense to ditch the Dyche at this moment in time.

Many don't want Everton to be surrendering possession unnecessarily and hoping that somehow, by defending for large parts of a game, we can keep a clean sheet in order to take a point or three.

I've said previously that Dyche staying until the end of his contract would be helpful to everybody connected to the club, but only if he alters his own conservative methods of setting his team up.

There is no magic wand or silver bullet, but a more positive outlook from the manager and his players might help. I think that's the major issue relating to Dyche, he's very unlikely to alter his methods or attitude, because he believes that his way is the only way for his side to survive.

Too many poor results in the next four games will probably end his tenure, regardless of what the fans think; a few good results in those four games, and Dyche buys Everton and himself a bit more time.

It's going to be a slog whatever happens, but it would be a relief if we were all given some hope that our fortunes could improve by trying to play the game in a manner that is more progressive rather than mainly regressive.

What I personally want, in the meantime, is at least a sign we're making progress rather than regressing, which is what we are under this manager. He's conditioning the team, and us, to expect shite.

We stayed up despite him, not because of him. He's a one-trick pony living off a lucky win at Anfield with Burnley, hailed as a “masterclass”.

Where was his “masterclass” v Fulham? At home?? And the bottom team in the league last week? The catalyst will be the new stadium. Once we're in there we should only look up.

I do believe that the new stadium – and a complete overhaul of the personnel plus mindset over the next few seasons – will see us challenging again.

I'm clinging on to that hope – and it's a realistic one.

You didn't read or understand what I said but never mind. I think that Dyche and Benitez are pretty equal in terms of being sub-standard head coaches but hiring Dyche immediately after Benitez was the worst move that I have ever seen. Really, Really!

There have been reports that TFG are scaling back their interest in Roma and if so that might be good for us as they will be concentrating all their efforts on Everton.

That may give us the edge regarding Sarri.

Many of your points I would endorse, especially in terms of the personal vitriol and Sean's accomplishments until this season, but for me, that's where it ends.

I think you have made a fair defence of Dyche and certainly it's reasonable to argue that he should have earned enough credit to go through a sticky patch.

But the problems he faces are that his incompetence, intransigence, tactical inflexibility, favouritism,, misuse of resources, disregard for the importance of substitutes and effective application of them, game management and inability for fans to see what he is trying to achieve – all have led to haemorrhaging of points and an inevitable loss of faith and questioning of his position.

This takes on greater significance when he is now putting our Premier League status in jeopardy, which many didn't think possible given our summer transfer dealings and the support he has had from Thelwell and the Club.

Ben, you have picked Ancelotti's 10th-place finish to downgrade this squad. There is no doubt he had much more potency than we currently have now and greater quality as a whole.

In my opinion, we had a top 8 squad then, capable of finishing 6th at best and about 12th at worst. Carlo's Everton however finished sandwiched in between two relegation squads who finished 9th and 11th respectively, with a comparable West Ham outfit finishing 6th under one David Moyes.

To highlight my point, Marco Silva finished 8th with a weaker one previously. This squad is easily the strongest we have had since.

Often, wages are the best guide to likely finishing positions accounting both for the quality of existing players and the quality you are able to attract. We currently rank 11th in this metric.

I believe the ceiling for this squad should be a maximum finish of 8th and a minimum of around 14th with 11th the most likely outcome. Unfortunately, our start means the upper end is in serious jeopardy.

We would obviously love to have the likes of Digne, Richarlison and Gordon to chose from but many of the players you spoke about would not be good enough to start. We sold Godfrey because we have 3 better centre-backs and Dyche prefers Keane over him so, in the manager's mind, that's 4.

Gray is a much inferior player to Ndiaye and McNeil. Allan when we got him isn't as good as Gana, Mangala or Garner now and was a bit of a liability in that team.

We have underperforming players like Mykolenko and Calvert-Lewin who we know are much better than this season's form. Harrison had decent output when under Bielsa... Do players improve under Dyche?

Then there are other things that infuriate fans: he claims he has 10-year stats suggesting subs don't have the impact you might imagine, hence his reticence to use them.

The bonkers thing: 5 subs is only a recent phenomenon; hence this revelation by him is bizarre due to being defunct.

Ben, you and others have pointed to lack of pace at right-wing, relying on Young at right- back, having to play Keane at centre-back and Beto being not good enough as a striking option or belief that Doucoure hasn't the technical quality to play midfield.

These are all limitations caused by the manager's decisions to sign or favour these players; weaknesses created by the manager rather than imposed upon him. Dyche doesn't want wide attackers, he wants wide midfielders.

If he identified this as a weakness, he would change shape. With limitations at full-back and real threat out wide and a plethora of centre-back options and strength of number tens – would it not be common sense to try a 3-4-2-1 formation? Astute coaches play to their strengths and hide their weaknesses.

You speak of common sense. Common sense tells me that 2 wins so far is woeful... Common sense tells you that 8 points gained against teams who the manager will target; Southampton, Palace, Fulham, Ipswich, Bournemouth and Leicester is worrying given there are only 3 more in Brentford, Wolves and Forest to play before the half-way point.

The rest of the squads we face are in my opinion superior to us and, since we have taken 1 point from the four played, common sense tells you not to expect a multitude of points here.

Ben, supporters will not trust a manager based on last season's achievements or what he did in the past. They live and die by their decisions. His decision-making and lack of it this season has been poor. Moreover, when fans are unable to comprehend the decision-making process and don't have the results to verify his judgement, then the inevitable consequences are likely.

In addition to Conor's thoughts, Dyche himself has just commented in his own press conference on the quality of the players in his squad. He said we have 4 good centre-orwards and 4 good centre-halves.

As we have improved the midfield also over last season, then it does beg the question, doesn't it?

The slow start to seasons isn't Dyche being unlucky, it's the norm under his stewardship, has always been so.

This obvious under-performance is all about tactics, formations, line-ups, substitutions, confidence levels and man-management – which are all down to the manager.

He has been claiming that it doesn't matter which selection or formation the manager picks because the players are rubbish.

This argument is made without recognition that other Premier League squads have improved considerably more by any measure.

We must remember that it was almost certainly the feedback from fans at the ground that has kept our Moshiri manager-go-round going and caused all of our current problems.

Live feedback from the fans influences the owners for sure but it must surely affect the confidence of the players too?

The Dyche Out movement is potentially dangerous because of our situation and could actually amplify all of our shortcomings.

I believe that we have only one option and that is to unconditionally support the club in this massively difficult season. We could go down.

I had gathered that you were somewhere down-under. What I had not considered was that you were that far down-under-the-weather.

For me, and what do I know, Moyes should not be offered a role at EFC, ever. There are others just as well, if not better suited. The title of your offering is "A Positive Step Backwards" – let me submit another scenario if a step backwards is the only option.

Someone mentioned that Baines was in line for the job; I wouldn't rule him out at this stage of the game, but bringing back Big Dunc alongside him, I'm sure they would whip up some unexpected points from somewhere.

The Yanks like 'Dream Teams' — why not go for these two until the end of the season??

We know a manager's time is up when supporters turn on them and the players lose interest.

I believe we are seeing signs of both and, if we don't get a result at West Ham, the "noise" will become deafening – particularly if he gets his team selection and tactics wrong again.

For the last 3 years, it's been the backing of our marvellous fans home and away that was a major factor in why we stayed up.

There hasn't been any visual 'Dyche Out' from the fans, as the fans are savvy enough to know at present, even if they did make that call visual, there is no chance till a new owner comes in for any change to happen.

Our fans have unconditionally backed this team, but Dyche's set-up doesn't make it easy to get behind a side with 30% possession.

The only people who are blameless in all this are our magnificent fans, as this is the worst football I have seen at Goodison in my lifetime.

He clearly addressed the Branthwaite issue today. He told us Jarrad had had three setbacks on his road to recovery earlier in the season. He eventually played him against his better judgement when the medical team told him Jarrad was good to go. Branthhwaite was injured again after one match. Again, he was out for sometime.

Dyche knows how good Branthwaite is and, even if you don't agree with his reluctance to throw him into a team that had been recently defending well, you must surely understand his reluctance to make the same mistake he made earlier in the season by rushing him back? No?

If Branthwaite was started and broke down, those throwing their arms up in outrage would be the first to complain that our prized asset was not being taken care of.

As for the claim that Keane is playing because he is a favourite. Really? Once Jarrad got in last season, Keane never got a sniff. Nor will he once Jarrad demonstrates he is fully recovered.

When I read people claiming we would deffo have won on Saturday if Beto started… I wonder how they know? I'm all for giving the big lad his chance, but let's not forget. We didn't actually lose until he came on and missed that jaw-dropping sitter.

People can slag Dyche's interview of all they want, but what he said today sounded an awful lot more convincing to me than some of the stuff posted on this thread. I'm back in his camp.

Glad he has finally cleared the air on that issue.

Dyche didn't say that he was injured now and getting injured after being declared fit happens.

If he is not definitively injured why not start him?

Surely it is fair to say that squad improvement can only be relative to the improvement of competitor squads, so really we should be making better gains than we are currently managing on the premise that probably most squads in the league are themselves improving.

To me the squad has steadily gone backwards over the past 5 years – certainly relative to other clubs and probably relative to the squad we had in say 2019-20.

My point being that expecting more because we may possibly have a "better" squad than last season or that before does not lead to an automatic expectation of improved results.

I am looking forward in the very near future to seeing genuine improvement and some quality recruitment following the takeover. Until then, it's Groundhog Day.

I always point out that, although we finished 10th under Ancelotti, we could have still qualified for Europe on the last match. Yes, we threw away points as we limped to the end line and then faced Manchester City on the last day.

Brian @190, from what I hear around me, it's not getting toxic, but there are shouts and mutterings that are growing louder.

On reading your first paragraph, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic or showing genuine concern as I have been very poorly of late with my first and hopefully once only, bout of Covid that ended up being quite serious.

But whatever, if it was the former, it fell on stoney ground; if the latter, thank you for your concern.

Regarding your post re Baines and Ferguson, whilst they would be more popular than Moyes, neither have the experience or skillset he has. I fear pure heart and effort over 20-odd games would falter badly as time goes on.

Wanted: someone who has been there, bought the tee-shirt and knows what to do, it's not a time or place to throw caution to the wind.

Moyes is not my cup of tea, not many fans' either, but this is about who is best equipped to get us there, who is available, who might do it short term, who is a better option than Dyche.

Precisely!

If we're going to change, we need to look further afield.

Paul (Hewitt), there is a difference between the reality of relegation and the threat of it, and if we are not a relegation-threatened club now (although hovering over the relegation basement after a very kind run of games is deeply concerning), there is a strong likelihood that we will be when you tuck in to your Xmas turkey.

We are under threat of relegation and that is why we have Dyche in charge. You will know that we are not under threat of relegation when he is gone (or, I suppose, our Trump-worshipping new owner decides that hard-boiled eggs are not for him and that might be read as progress)

That is not the same as the doom and gloom merchants who say that we are down. It is the reality. A horrid reality of being bored to death by Dyche in order to stay in this league under the heavy black shadow of relegation.

Conor (183): great post.

Robert Williams (188): Jesus wept! Leighton Baines and managerial failure and all-round footy mediocrity Ferguson a, what (?), ‘dream team'!!!!! That would be Baines with his past of not exactly asserting himself ("No probs; you take it, Kev"); and the perennial coaching and management failure or mediocrity who, for some reason that completely escapes me, some on here still believe is the messiah who will liberate us from Rome's yoke.

He's not. He never has been. He never will be. He is 'a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas'.

‘Whip[ping] up some unexpected points from somewhere' is one thing that the three hard-boiled eggs are decent at, as well as wolfing down curries.

Get well for the last pilgrimage to Goodison, so you can walk the streets you once did.

And then the first trip to Bramley-Moore Dock.

God bless girl and get yourself home!!

You'll be looked after for tickets.

If Dyche is left alone, he will keep us above Ipswich, Southampton and someone else. It's just whether everyone can put up with his manner, and the manner of the football.

I suspect the new guys are already holding interviews. It will depend on who they can get and when. Some will say, "I'm interested, but only in the summer". If they can get who they want now, eg, Sarri, I think they will move Sean on at once. If not, it'll be the summer.

“When I read people claiming we would deffo have won on Saturday If Beto started.”

That is not what I said in my post @ 64. I said if he had started ”both of them” - (Beto and Branthwaite) - we would have won that game.

“I wonder how they know?”

I'll stand corrected – I don't. Let me put it another way: I feel sure we would have won that game.

”I'm all for giving the big lad his chance, but let's not forget. We didn't actually lose until he came on and missed that jaw-dropping sitter.”

I think that is really unfair laying the loss on Beto but, seeing as how you are all for giving the big lad his chance, let me ask you a question. Who would you start up front against the Hammers? Beto or Calvert-Lewin?

Early up for work again PH. I never get up before 10 unless we're playing or some other good reason corrupts my sleep!

I think this was in response to my original post around Mourinho not looking at us twice due to us being a relegation threatened team.

Paul H, I actually think we are saying the same thing as it happens.

Dyche has/is turning us into a relegation threatened team. The team itself, if managed effectively is comfortably mid table but Dyche is making us look much worse.

What do you expect Paul, from a ‘newspaper’ who backed Sir Oswald Mosley just before WW2.

Rag!!!!!

That said; It doesn't need a genius to understand why Dyche chose DCL. He is a better player.

After listening to Dyche talk about JB's set backs. I also have a better understanding of his reluctance to rush him back. It's not personal mate, I just think Dyche offers a far more convincing argument than you and the admirable Christine. He knows. We guess

One more thing Laurie. I didn't place the entire blame on Beto for Saturday's loss. I simply tried to counter what I saw as hypothetical hindsight by relaying what actually happened.

Beto must also be considered to start because as much as I understand what Dominic brings to the team, to me, he has been holding back with the effort he usually brought to the team, Dyche might surprise us and play two up front but the most damage is playing just two in central midfield, the manager certainly has to change the style and tactics, this almost total practice of letting the opposition have the ball is simply not working and a turn off in watching.

But on DCL being a better player than Beto - not in my opinion. No doubt I will cop some flack for that comment, but I believe that if he is given a run of 5 or 6 starts, it will become apparent that we have a top centre forward on our hands.

I will stick my neck out even further. If he starts against the Hammers, he will terrorise their backline - and get on the scoresheet - twice.

On Branthwaite - what Christine says @ 216.

On Dyche - he is Teflon coated.

See you on here on Sunday. If necessary I will bring a spoon. 😉

However, I would prefer him to the return of Moyes.

The Dyche interview said everything and nothing. It was a lot of words that didn't answer any of the questions.

Beto v Calvert-Lewin: seems to me Dyche favours Calvert-Lewin's Premier League experience despite seeing the results of Beto playing. The stats Dyche is measuring for a striker seem to be how much they run and showing ‘confidence' in a player rather than how many goals either has scored.

Keane vs Branthwaite seems to be about being kind to Keane instead of who solidifies the team.

Aside from that, I got the impression Dyche was going to pick the team he wanted rather than consider alternatives.

As the game wore on, our midfield pairing both looked knackered and, with West Ham's 5 subs, we handed all the initiative to them. Replacing Calvert-Lewin with Beto was pointless when he needed to strengthen the middle of the park.

Dyche changed tactics today, playing out from the back, no long punts, and trying to cross early, but it was poor as we struggled to do either.