Everton confirm signing of Carlos Alcaraz

Why only 2 years? I know he's flitted around but that seems an opportunity missed.

Sounds a little dithery doesnt it ?

A two year deal is usually for a player who is at the end of his career, not at the start (well almost) of it. Hope talk of Harrison returning is either mischief initiated, or totally wide of the facts. Hopefully there is room for an extension, well before expiry date based on merit of course.

I look at it and say we have a highly motivated player of 22 years of age, that is keen to impress. He does well for us, he will deserve a good contract on a decent wage.

Next season he's going to give it everything in a position that will be entertaining to watch - and that's fine by me.

The flip side was we stuck him on a long contract of say £80-100k a week and he didn't deliver. And then have to own that decision when team mates like Ndiaye etc want similar.

I don't think we can say he"s knocked out the park. Dithering, no how about sensible, and not having your pants pulled down like we have over the last 5 years.

Honestly, some posters are quick to moan about him not signing him quick enough, and then moan when he signs. Get over it goldilocks the porridge today is alright.

He's 22. He's a player who excites and get's the supporters on their feet.

I would rather it was a longer contract, but maybe that was in the original terms and conditions and we can negotiate an extension.

Failing that, let's just enjoy watching him play for Everton and getting better.

This is great News compared to what I dreamt that Inter was taking him after paying double our price LOL

We may well be looking at someone beyond the ability of Alcaraz in two years based on where we might want to be as a club. Just playing devils advocate here.

Is there a professional working at EFC these days ?

Obviously weren't around during the Sissoko and Fernandes debacle...

They'll always apologise

Fekk the RS and the rest, all focus and energy is for Everton.

Loads of ifs and what ifs, in transfer speculation abound at this time of the year, so hopefully Everton can build on this signing and keep Brainthwaite and mould a new generation of players for a new era in Evertons history.

UTFTs!

At half time against Palace in '22 I was trying to remain positive that we'd turn it around in the second half, and we did. But inside, I was thinking about League 1 as if we'd gone down that season we would no doubt (in my mind) have been another Leeds or Sunderland.

Point being, we've ridden the storm of horrific management on and off the field and now things are looking up. Finally!!

Let's enjoy it and let someone else take over as the Crisis Club...like Man United!!

This is a good step towards our recovery and we'll be back in Europe soon.

Perhaps there's been a learn that contracts will be shorter, and renewals more frequent.

Yes, you might lose players on frees - but that's been happening anyway - Gomes, Gbamin, Keane, Holgate, Doucoure etc etc, but least you're paying for lads that contribute on the pitch rather than the stands.

Weve also no idea the terms of negotiation. What if the player saids I want to play Champions League by 24, and I'll give you 2 years to prove that you can pay me Champions League wages take it or leave it.

You offering him 2 years or walking away?

Whatever that decision you can find the negative in any of it:-

Walk away - club lacks ambition

Pay him big money and he fails - club is reckless

See how it goes and reward later - indecisive

Only 12-18 months in and contracts already signed, are you going to know if it was a good deal or not.

Anyway, its being reported its 2 years plus a third year if conditions are met...

We can win a trophy and qualify for Europe next season, but I always go into a season believing that.

My family worry about me, but they understand my Evertonianitis as John Mc Snr describes it. Sometimes I feel like the youngest, not the eldest, which I am.

His performance against Palace did enough to convince me that he was worth keeping. The direct running, the assist, the goal. He's not the finished product yet, but over the next couple of seasons, he can get us on the edge of our seats.

Mostly, we want results, but we want to be entertained. Him and Ndiaye do that.

Ian @32, he's our player now and will be when he wears royal blue next season.

We've mostly been in royal blue. The worst interpretations in my memory were that awful one-to-one kit and the equally bad Lineker white bib one.

This could spark an entire new thread over the kit and socks.

1. Blue, white, white.
2. Blue, white, blue.
3. Blue, white, black.
4. An outsider, but Alan Ball's classic photo in blue, white, amber.

I'm for number 2. Even though I did see them, I remember to pictures of the 60s teams wearing blue socks.

Amber should be our away kit in my opinion. It's very Everton.

If he performs and is happy, then I expect we'll extend the contract (and increase the wages). Hopefully that is what happens as he really does seem to have something about him - even if he's a bit inconsistent still.

If he wants to leave in a couple of years - then we've lost only a small fee (£13m?), and we've hopefully had the benefit of a decent player for a couple of seasons.

So not ideal, but not terrible either.

I look at this as an absolute steal, and hopefully if he’s playing well and we’re playing well next season, it will all sort itself out. To think we could get a starting central midfielder who is 22 years old at this price is pretty remarkable, especially compared to what we were paying for several years ago for 3 central midfielders in the same window.

If we had just signed Alcaraz with his previous record and without having seen him for 6 months up close, we’d all be moaning about us lacking ambition. Instead Thelwell pulled off what could be the loan deal that helps change our trajectory for the next few years. He’ll grow to love us and us him, once he’s cemented in the starting XI with better players around him and a full preseason.

Announce Gana next and let’s get on with it.

Although I'm still surprised it's not 4 or 5 years.

A couple of good games does not warrant a contract of more than 2 years. If he performs, we extend for the year (or longer); if he doesn't, it isn't an onerous financial burden.

Well done, Everton.

I don't think Moyes would have signed Alcaraz permanently if he didn't like his attitude. Doesn't make sense.

Even if we just finish Top 7 and get European football it will seem incredible after the last few years. I do know we all want and expect far more than that from our Everton.

I've been thinking about the success other clubs have had over the last few years, and not just trophy winning clubs like Palace or Newcastle.

Teams like Bournemouth, Brentford, Brighton and Burnley have all had some of their best days in decades over recent times just by being competitive in the Premier League. They celebrated it like it was a trophy!

Surely our turn for some success is just around the corner, it must be? And players like Charly will help us towards ending this embarrassingly long trophy drought.

A 2-year deal sounds strange, even with the option for a third year, perhaps him and his agent preferred that as they think he'll be worth a lot more soon?

Who knows, but glad he'll be playing at Dixie's Hill next season.

Young, technical, burst of pace and forward thinking with the hint of an eye for goal.

The boy is 22, would be considered a young academy player if he was local, boy has grown up abroad and, with proper coaching, he does have the ability to be a good Premier League player.

Better squad player than most of our midfielders, at the least, with some proven ability to come off the bench and make a difference.

If he's a star, we can sell him for more than he's worth or extend his contract. Or he's a dud, and we won't have him on a long contract

3 years is fine by me.

I wonder what the pros are?

So far, he's been way better away from home, breaking fast from midfield, but he's good and can get a whole lot better. Here's hoping.

Must be some kind of reasoning behind it with the right people in place at the top, certainly trust these more than the last lot who could not run a bath.

Let's just be happy he's ours for at least two seasons and will help us win a trophy.

Premier League's Profitability & Sustainability Rules to stay next season after delay to Squad Cost Ratio rules

For one, Moyes will have virtually nothing to do with contract negotiations; and for two, what if Charly's people only wanted to sign a 2-year (with an option of another year) contract?

Just maybe he had other offers and didn't want a 5-year deal… so the deal we got was the best we could. possibly have negotiated?

But of course, Dithering Dave strikes again – and we are amateurs at all this contract business. Not, "We've just signed a really good young Argentinian international for less than £15M."

The mind boggles at times.

Well done, Everton, great business.

As I think was mentioned earlier in the thread, all those moaning about why it's only a 2-year contract would probably be the same ones moaning why it's a 5- or 6-year contract?

"What if he's shite, what if he gets injured, why have we given him a mega contract over 5/6 years, does this club ever learn… Blah Blah Blah!"

Seems Everton can't do right for being wrong in the eyes of some!

As well as the length of the contract the loan deal itself provided further assurance that the new regime knows how to handle transfer business balancing risk versus opportunity.

If Charly had made nine starts we would have been obliged to sign him. Imagine our dismay if having made nine starts the player had picked up an ACL injury at Newcastle ruling him out for the next nine months. As it was Moyes made sure he started only seven making the signing optional rather than obligatory.

I would have expected a 2 year contract with the option to extend for another year..

If a young man signs on a two year deal it's far more likely that it was his team that wanted the shorter contract.

And the reasons are obvious. In two years he'll have freedom to move and the money will go to him rather than the club. I think this is a trend in football - we'll see more players running down contracts.

If this ends up being a major issue it will be because he's performed well and is coveted by other clubs. That's not a bad worst case.

He has all the ability in the world.

Wrong thread, sorry!

Think it was MK who posted a link to a Saints fan on YouTube talking about him when he first arrived and he was spot on, talented but frustrating, exciting and unpredictable.

Saints fans were split on him; seems we're not.

Also saying he's not the final package, is fair, but what 22-year-old is? I've wanted more from him, but perhaps that's unfair on a lad still making his way in the game.

I'd suspect he's the one hedging his bets that Everton will be where he needs them to be in a few short years. If it's all going fantastically, then I'm sure he will extend his contract; if it's not, then I think he will be looking for a step up by moving elsewhere.

A big plus that we've signed him. Hopefully he'll be delivering the goods for us 5 years down the line.

That's a really sour attitude, Ryan. I'm not sure he's even supposed to be a similar sort of player to Iniesta.

I know it's only rubbish click bait journalism but I'm getting a bit nervous about the age of most of the players we're supposedly linked with, given TFG's plan is to reduce our average age.

Hopefully all or most of the links I've read are smokescreens and, with no fanfare, we'll soon hear about the new winger Fellows from Norwich having joined Everton, for instance.

Ryan Holroyd: 76: "Anyone would think we were signing prime Andres Iniesta."

And then on cue in the very next post: it's Hewey!

Paul Hewitt 77: "This lad is going to be a super star!"

So as to not have someone tied to a long contract who may not qualify long-term if not enough games played?

Superstar, Paul H? I hope your suggestion becomes reality, but time will tell.

Let's just enjoy him for now. He's become a favourite very quickly in his short time here. A great signing for us at this point in our re-development.

I hope he's dancing around Wembley next May having helped us win a trophy.

Link

Rather than listen to poster after poster invent his version of the truth. why don't we just examine the stuff we do know to be true.

To begin with I think it's fair to say that Carlo's Alcaraz cuts a popular figure among the faithful. His aggression and swashbuckling style has made him an instant favourite especially (In my view) with the youngsters But I wonder if he is seen in quite such a positive light by the our manager ?

Whether you are lucky enough to be able to get to games. Have to watch from afar, or use TW as your match day venue you will be aware of the discontent whenever Our boy Carlos has been left out of the starting eleven...Lets be fair its happened often enough. Shout and scream all you want, but there were many times when unpopular players in poor form started games while Charlie sat on the bench. That worries me given just how poorly some of the preferred players were playing. The fact that they were getting in before Charlie would suggest Moyes is far from convinced.

One of my favourite posters on this site is John Raftery. I don't know him personally, but he is clearly old school. He simply goes the match and his comments are generally spot on. The second paragraph of his post( 68) really intrigued me. I genuinely didnt know about this clause in CA's lone deal. Unfortunately. Having expressed my respect for John I have to say I completely disagree with him when he says Moyes boxed clever by only starting him seven times. I think by not securing the player ASAP Moyes risked the whole deal. Alcaraz had his best game for us at St James and there was a far greater risk of of Eddie Howe (or somebody else) stepping in than Charlie doing his ACL.

Maybe Davey Moyes feels he can work with Charlie and iron out the flaws in his game (There are deffo a few of them), but all evidence would suggest that at this point in time he is far from convinced. His disgusted reaction to CA's bookings for an acts of petulance would suggest he is equally concerned about the guys temperament.

Difficult situation for Davey. He would have had to have been deaf dumb and blind not to have felt the chill when he returned and will be delighted that he has been able to get the majority of the fans back on board. Does he want to jeopardise that new found goodwill by not signing a player the crowd are clamouring for. One they already love ? Especially as the player badly wants to come and the fee is within our budget.

The bizarre nature and complexity of the deal can wait for another day. In fact it can wait forever as far as I'm concerned. I don't care, I'm happy with this signing...but those throwing their arms up in outrage at the very suggestion that Davey has dithered need to recall the hand ringing frustration expressed in the pubs whenever Charlie was benched...or simply check out the match day threads on here.

Dithering Dave has done nothing but dither over Charlie since the day and hour Thelwell brought him over from SA and plonked him into his lap

Colin, best of all Ian Bennett: 20: Honestly, some posters are quick to moan about him not signing him quick enough, and then moan when he signs. Get over it, Goldilocks, the porridge today is alright.

Of course, no names, but no one is 'moaning' about him signing. No one, Ian. Your connection to 'quick enough' and 'signs' is completely disingenuous. People are asking completely reasonable and legitimate questions about the length of the deal. That is not moaning, Ian. Far from it.

A much bigger issue on this thread is not people 'moaning' (your word), but you distorting and misrepresenting the words of the clear majority for reasons I simply cannot fathom.

'Get over it'. Fuck me!

And Colin, thank you for considering me a youngster!! It's like being asked for your ID when you enter a bar. These days, it's a badge of honour!!

I've had the privilege of being sat next to John Raftery on a couple of occasions. A great, well schooled football man to watch a match alongside.

I saw him briefly before the Fulham match but most recently sat next to him against Palace when Alcaraz scored.

I've mentioned this before, but don't mind repeating. The one I always remember was Wolves away when Mina got the last-gasp 99th-minute equaliser.

There I was thinking this could be us down. John said not to worry, there are 30 seconds left. Never question the wise Evertonians.

God knows what clock he has to have that precise timing information, but I was glad he calmed me down. Until we scored!!!

If Moyes rated Charly, he would have picked him more often, and the PSR concerns some raised was proven incorrect when we activated the buy-out.

It does concern me a lot that our manager would prefer Doucoure over Alcaraz.

It's unhealthy.

Thanks for your check-in though.

If we activated the buy-out clause, and paid around £12.6M or whatever, isn't that exactly the same as what would have been triggered automatically if he had started 8, 9, 10, 11 – or was it 12 games that Moyes & Co appeared to be studiously avoiding?

And how come everyone knew about the automatic buy-out clause… but no-one seemed to know just how many starting games it stipulated?

The world of football transfers is an odd place that seems to defy logic.

Emphasis on the word ‘maybe' here.

No idea what he'll be like over a full season. He had no idea where Everton will be in a year or two.

These contracts get renegotiated every 6 months.

More good business by TFG.

Re the contract length if it is, as now seems, 2 + 1 years, that feels a better position to be in. Assuming he is a success, we are guaranteed 2 seasons and in a position to negotiate a new contract in 18/24 months or sell rather than let a contract run out.

You actually touch on a good point there. It made me think, is this the strategy of the new owners?

Similarly, they only signed Moyes on a 2-year deal. Okay 2½ years with taking into account the second half of this season.

I think we're going to have to get used to being run much more professionally? It will be the same if we sell. No sentiment, get the best deal and re-invest.

TFG will call the shots and not take sentiment into it. I think Roma are about to appoint their 6th head coach in 6 years. It doesn't speak a lot for stability, but I don't think that's how our new owners will operate.

Hope links with Stones and Wilson are just clickbait!

Also resist the Branthwaite money — he is irreplaceable.

It isn't the first time we, or many other clubs, left somebody out or on the bench to avoid the compulsory purchase of a player. That said, I'm glad we've signed him - our first eleven is looking much better since he, Ndiaye and O'Brien came in.

A first choice right-back, right-wing, and striker would see us challenging the Top 6…

Now, with not knowing whether we would still be a Premier League team at one time, that might have seemed a bit of a risk so they kicked the can down the road a bit to be sure.

As for the stipulated number of games, well that's the meeju for you, they know nothing but like to make up stuff and report it as fact.

People were moaning in the week that alcaraz deal wasn't done. Questioning it was only a 2 year deal. Said it was because the manager didnt want him. Risked not playing him to trigger the deal. Claimed the club lacked belief by not offering a long term deal.

In most cases it's been proved to be wrong. Signing done by 31st may, 2 year deal plus 1 year option. In others they've guessed that the manager doesn't fancy him or that we risked losing him by not playing him without a shred of proof.

No one knows the terms of that option as to whether we had an exclusivity period or not, and no ones knows what Moyes truly thinks of him or is his approach to managing him. What I do know is the deal wouldnt have been sanctioned without Moyes approval. And why shouldn't he when the transfer kitty is limited?

For some it will fit the agenda against Moyes. They will continue to look for the negative. The tiresome dithering comments used like a badge of honour. That's fine, but just don't accept everyone will let that go. Some of us want Moyes to clear the shit up and move us forward.

Most, if not all, have accepted it. You can hear it every week in the stadiums around the country.

Even initial sceptics like myself. He's our manager and will be next season. If he succeeds, we succeed.

That's all we want. He will get the praise, as he has received since coming back. He will be criticised if it goes wrong. That's the price that goes with the responsibility of being in charge.

I don't buy into the Moyes for v Moyes against argument. I will comment and have my view, but in terms of taking sides, there is only one I back.

Everton.

"We've also no idea the terms of the negotiation"

Now you'd have thought that was a fair comment wouldn'tt you ?.. and it would have been if didn'tt keep coming to to the thread to angrily round on those who are not falling over themselves to applaud Moyes for the way he as handled this affair.

It's rarely a good idea to try to peddle a load of conjecture and hypothesis on a pubic forum. Especially when you have openly admitted to all and sundry that you haven't got a scooby what your talking about.

People will know that, if Moyes rated Alcaraz as highly as the fans, he could have put this to bed 8 weeks ago.

And while you claim people are "guessing" that he doesn't overly fancy Charly, I think by repeatedly benching him in favor of Championship standard players, Moyes was providing them with all the evidence they needed.

I honestly don't think people will care that you "wont let that go". You go for it, fella. But by angrily rounding upon those who have clearly observed the situation more closely than you, you are not winning any hearts or minds. It's gonna take a little more than a steady stream of apologetic pap to do that.

As for Dithering Dave holding him back… I wonder when (if) it was ever brought to his attention that Alcaraz made telling goal contributions to games if (and only if) he started them (2 goals, 3 assists)? Versus none if he came on from the bench.

Yeah, in a nutshell.

Personally, I'd say Top 8, but who's to say...

He started both. Assisted and scored. Not for the first time in many seasons, I had to turn to the person in front of me trying to wrestle me to his seat and ask him who scored. His young lad told me Charly as he danced on his seat.

The match day supporters love him. Once you have thousands of Evertonians behind you, because they know what you can do, you don't need much more motivation.

Or wait till the end of the season, and use the option you have in place and have paid money for.

But I am sure you're right, and the club is wrong.

Nobody suggested we should have signed him 8 weeks ago. That's just you inventing nonsense again.

It was just being pointed out to you that your dithering deity could have made this signing a fait accompli that long ago by simply leaving Donkey Doucoure out and fulfilling the club's side of the binding agreement with Flamengo.

The club could have sat down with the player at their leisure (end of June?) Instead of being panicked into action, fearing Dithering Dave had left the door ajar for some other club to step in.

Dithering Davy had the best of both worlds.

He played him and had no binding commitment if he got injured on the club coin for the remaining games.

He could walk away or trigger the option in his own time. And guess what, that's what happened.

You're the one that's inventing nonsense by suggesting the club was panicked into doing anything, or that club risked losing him. There's no hint in the press that the deal was at risk or the player was talking to other clubs. It concluded in less than a week after the final game.

Also if you've triggered the game option, you can't leisurely wait/dither till the end of June. The deal is already done.

Top dithering.

By completing the criteria to make the move permanent, we were not obliged to break the existing lone agreement instantly. That was also legally binding.

Still its amusing to see that you believe that no other club would have stepped in for this "steal" had we not acted hastily after dropping the ball.

One last point. There is no such thing as "top dithering" or even bottom dithering. There is only dithering. Good to see you finally admit you were wrong and that Davey was indeed dithering.

Tiresome innit?

No offence meant but sometimes it helps to point out that there is no basis for argument. I believe that there's one fact? He's signed a contract for Everton.

Not silly deals like Maupay, Gomes, and the bloke from Man Utd, Schniderlin.

David Moyes didn't leave the door ajar for other clubs because Everton had the option.

You troll!

Can we not just celebrate signing a player?

There was no dithering, we signed him before June.

As you say, we don't know and even if we had first claim, there will still have been negotiations to be had.

Let's keep the personal insults out of the discussion. I'm off to the John Stones discussion. That should be interesting.

The agreement was he started so many games. Some people are arguing that Moyes deliberately didn't start him so that he wouldn't be bound by the agreement

You are the only one on the entire thread arguing that, despite not meeting the stipulated criteria, the option still existed,

Always love to hear from a blind apologist like you who wants it both ways..

Who cares about the contract? It wouldn't have been an issue if Moyes hadn't repeatedly left Alcaraz out of the team in favour of Doucoure... no doubt you cheered that too.

What you say is plainly the case. End of.

I thought it was generally reported that there was both a number games started or played trigger, and a date deadline option.

The 31st of May was specifically identified some weeks back.

Why would you set yourself obliged to sign someone when you had the option anyway?

I don't want it both ways. I'm not bothered if he signed or not.

"Some of us want Moyes to clear the shit up and move us forward."

Not quite sure how or why you managed to slip Moyes in there, Ian. "Some"? I think that 99.995% of us want Moyes to "move us forward".

I don't quite get how you do not see the distinction between being made up that we now have him and absolutely reasonable questioning of the length of the contract which you call "moaning".

Ho hum.

What if??? The money boys came to Moyes and said "look Davey, if you play this kid and trigger the obligation to buy we don't have the money to pay the fee and we aren't even sure we're going to be in the Premier League next season"

What if???? Too many 'what if's, including Ian Bennett's sensible ones.

Sorry Guys. I spent far too much of yesterday refuting stuff from people making claims about this contract they know nothing about.

I came on here to respond to those who demanded to know why I was calling him Dithering Dave. This is what I posted:

"The bizarre nature and complexity of this deal can wait for another day. In fact it can wait for ever as far as I'm concerned. I don't care. I'm happy with this signing. but those throwing their hands up in outrage need to recall the hand wringing frustration in the pubs every time Charly was benched."

"Dithering Dave has done nothing but dither over Charly since the day and hour Thelwell brought him from South America."

Moyes spent the second half of last season playing some sort of managerial Hokey Cokey with Charly's career. Time and again, he left him on the bench in favour of inferior players… players who have since been let go. If that isn't enough proof that there is something about Charly he isn't sure about, I wonder what will it take?

Anybody who thinks Dithering Davey's attitude towards Charly Alcaraz will change next season is in for a rude awakening. He has far too much previous for this sort of thing.

I just hope Seamus and Bainsey can exert a little influence here. They may not have the clout… or the experience – but they both have first hand experience of what it's like trying to break into a team managed by a dithering fucker who would rather play inferior players than trust somebody with less than a million games under his belt.

"I spent far too much of yesterday refuting stuff from people making claims about this contract they know nothing about."

So please provide us the proof that it's only you that knows what this contract is all about and maybe we'll stop laughing at you.

There was clearly some discussions with Doucoure about staying on and maybe Moyes wanted a long hard look at him to see if he was worth anything like the money he was asking for.

Who knows… football is totally unlike any other business… but the main thing is we have Charly for a pretty low fee and, if he doesn't work out, we're not lumbered with a long contract.

Emails and texts don't cut it for the haggle. It's that person to person where business is won or lost or improved. They then have to get hold of the player and that may mean in person.

Even when a deal seems cut and dried and ready to sign, it can still take longer because one or other moving part is doing something else.

Players' agents are one reason deals become entrenched. Calvert-Lewin sacked his recently.

I don't know Charly's situation, but he is South American. Out there, there are while pose's of interested parties who own bits and pieces of players or whatever. Even if the deal is buy-out for ,X you still have to get hold of people and undetermined other factors, for instance the player's registration.

Yes, Everton are historically dreadful at signing talent. However, it's done now, so move on

I don't hate Moyes. I don't know anybody who does, but I know plenty of people who resent the fact that the slightest criticism (no matter how legitimate) is rounded upon by people who think he can do no wrong. I've read the case for the defence. All of it and find it devoid of fact. So in the face of irrefutable facts and official records and personal knowledge of his actions. I stand by my claim.

Davey is, was and always will be a ditherer

Moyes is cautious.

You use very good examples in Baines and Coleman.

He was cautious about their defensive abilities. In the case of Baines, also affected by injury, he opted to play Lescott as left back for much of the season.

With Coleman, he took a gamble, but then was cautious and mostly preferred him as a right midfielder / winger, with Hibbert behind him as security.

Our David won't change. He will always be cautious and considered. Not a bad thing this season to be fair.

Now it's on him and the club to be more ambitious, because none of us want another season of survival. We want to be at Wembley and in Europe.

And you were wrong about that too!!!

Yes Moyes is cautious when assessing players and rightly so, the money involved in transfers are eye watering sums not only the fee if there is one but the agents fees as well as wages over the length of the contract. I definitely think Alcaraz will improve under Moyes as most players have whether they be young or old, maybe the fact that Charly had been at 4 clubs while still only 22, was a concern.

There is no doubt that Moyes still has his critics about his tactics mainly from his first spell, but will want to see a more attacking approach than his critics think he lacked in his first spell. I do think its definitely a much more relaxed David Moyes this time round and were in his first spell it was him supported by Alan Irvine, he has introduced 2 younger coaches to work with.
There is no doubt that he has a love for this club and also never under estimates the role the fans play. I thought it was quite telling that when the TFG group asked him to come back, his fear was to be the first manager in 70 odd years to get relegated.
He will need time and money but even his fiercest critics have to acknowledge the superb job he has done so far.

Baines was injured when he signed for us so couldn't play on crutches. Then when he did get on the grass he had a couple of injuries that kept him out for 2 months, and wasn't fully fit until the close season after he had an operation on his ankle.

Nevertheless he played 29 games in his first season so wasn't kept out of the side by Moyes preferring Lescott at left back.

The other reason Lescott was at left back, besides Baines injuries, was the strong centre back partneship of Neville and Yobo which kept Lescott out of his preferred position. The start of the 2008-09 season saw both Baines and Lescott in their preferred positions.

I'll let "the ditherer" have the last word on this, on signing Baines he said "Leighton is someone that we have been after for a long time and he is someone who will give good competition to our squad. We see him as a left-back. We already have Nuno Valente to play there and Joleon Lescott can cover in that position, but we really want [Lescott] to be a central defender"

Not the words of someone unsure of Baines ability is it?

Now the hard work starts. Can he take us to where we can and will be? A full season with an improved squad and how he sets us up will tell us that.

Doubters will remain as to whether he's the one to take us further and I don't mind including myself in that category.

I get all of what you're saying, and he changed us with the players at his disposal. But there were games when he reverted to type. Arsenal at home springs to mind. The 2nd half away to Brighton, clinging on to a 1-0 lead that could have cost 2 points were it not for stoic, back to the walls defending.

But mostly he got it right in the way we adapted the way we played. He has the credit he deserves and has earned. He and the players made going the match enjoyable again.

Forget the pundits and media. You only need one voice of approval.

The magnificent supporters. The highest accolade afforded to any football player or coach. He, and they got that in spades.

As Seamus Coleman said in his interview at the last Goodison match. We are demanding supporters, but demanding for a reason. We have expectation. And we will never ever lower them.

But let's hope Moyes get's the backing now and can push us on to end his and our Everton trophy drought. There is nothing I would want more.

Otherwise, the owners will be looking at someone else. As with Roma, they don't mess around.

Pressure and expectation is healthy. I think first time around, he didn't really have that and fell into his comfort zone.

I'd be happy for Moyes to succeed. If he does, Everton will have succeeded. That's all I care about.

Be brave, not cautious.

The site is all about opinion. Most people form theirs by using facts, official records, and first-hand knowledge to form theirs, just as I have done... Some (you) will simply stick their fingers in their ears to everything and demand incontrovertible evidence. This is not a court of law. You do understand that don't you?

I have what I see as enough proof to draw a conclusion and form my opinion. You, on the other hand, offer less than nothing.

I and thousands of others believe Davey to be a ditherer. You want to contest that? Go'ed then.. but play by your own rules: Prove he isn't!

I'm so glad that we missed out on Delap. I doubt that Everton fans will tolerate this overtly defensive game forever though?

I would recommend, counter intuitively, that a new striker is not a priority but midfielders and full backs who can get the ball to Beto and/or DCL and see how those guys can perform in the right conditions not how they are made to look now.

Also, a lot is made about Newcastle's form. Well ,the last game of the season we were by far the better team and 0-1 flattered Newcastle. From when Moyes joined till the end of the season, Newcastle only got 3 more points than us in that time.

I think Moyes has changed but as we know time and results matter the most and like you I just want what's best for Everton, with or without Moyes.

Being at St James' Park was a joy. Supporters, non-stop atmosphere and performance. The players and Moyes looking up to us in the blue skies at the end. A perfect end to another turbulent season.

Like you and anyone else, I'll have an opinion. I didn't agree with it, but he's going to be our manager starting next season.

We will do what we always do. Get behind the those players on the pitch. I rarely look at the dugout. Probably only when Allardyce was there.

If people had to provide undeniable facts to express an opinion. This and every other forum would close down in a heartbeat.

I know you like to see yourself as the voice of reason, but you remind me very much of a guy who for years, denied all charges against Bill Kenwright with the same fingers in the ears mentality. Only when his fingers got tired and dropped was his brain able to hear all the facts and he finally admitted he was wrong.

Sorry but your bias is on full display. If you really do want the gig as TW's seaker of truth and justice. You need a little more balance. You have to challenge the people you agree with too. You could start by challenging the sort of inaccurate nonsense posted @160. You wont of course its an opinion you share.

You could start by asking if Baines Really did pass a fitness test on crutches...or maybe you could ask where Phil jagielka was playing when the Neville/Yobo center back partnership was so impressive LB couldnt get a game ?

Better still....You could demand proof !!!

His injury spells were Oct 27 - Nov 15 (ankle) and Dec 8 - Jan 1 (Achilles). Therefore, he was available for selection for the majority of the season.

In the same season, Lescott played 38 league games, Yobo played 30 league games and Jagielka played 34 league games.

The maths is pretty obvious, and supports Colin’s recollection.

I spent a lot of the match that night listening to Wenger and Allardyce. Interesting comparisons as we got battered.

I'm not as vocal these days. I leave that to the youngsters. But I snapped when he told Jonjoe Kenny to get the ball into the channel.

There was noone there and the ball ran out of play.

Big Sam screaming at young Kenny. "What the fuck were you doing"?

At that point, I couldn't hold back, stood up and told him "he's fucking done what you told him to do you neanderthal" The only response I got was a look.

He turned on the players after that match. Maybe rightfully so, but got his tactics wrong. A back 3 and 4 - 0 down at half time.

Pretty much supports the view that it was a combination of injuries and the form of Lescott which prevented Baines from making the left back spot his own that season.

Do you think that any manager would put a player just recovered from injury (serious enough to require an operation in the close season) straight into the firing line? Introduce him slowly to to get back to fitness and look after your asset, hence the appearances in the cup games to make up his 29

Colin, well done on spotting the deliberate error, someone is paying attention! It was indeed Jagielka that Yobo partnered that kept Lescott from his preffered position.

But I have to agree with Martin, you've just posted a 'what if' Davey was dithering opinion as fact when any of the other 'what ifs' make sense, especially the good management 'what ifs' Ian Bennett posted.

So in short, you don't know what Moyes was thinking so all you're spouting is biased coprolite.

Don't change a winning team?

Was this the same ankle he had the operation on at the end of the season,

Lescott played 38 games that season, mainly at left-back. Therefore, David Moyes selected the centre-back Lescott out of position over his fit left-back summer signing Baines for most of the season.

That is the point Colin is making - he calls it dithering, some call it caution. Moyes took the same approach regularly during his first period in charge - selecting new players out of position for months until he was sure of them. Some never got close to being selected in their preferred positions.

Hopefully, we have the new brave, expansive Moyesy at the helm now. His handling of Alcaraz smacks of old Moysey.

Moyes was playing a midfielder at center back. A center back @ left back and putting the best left back we've had since Raymon Wilson on the bench.... Even though he was on crutches ?

I was going to recant the story about when Moyes had to have his arm twisted up his back by back-room staff and STILL managed to very nearly scupper the deal for John Stones through his dithering..

But the case for the defence is so shambolic. I don't think the case for the prosecution is necessary any more - As if it ever was

You say Baines was carrying an injury at the start of the season and not available for selection and/or he had an ankle injury at the end of the season. Therefore was he carrying an injury all season? Not my recollection, but post your sources and I’ll stand corrected.

If he had an summer operation then he recovered quickly, as he did not miss a game in the 2008/09 season due to injury.

Honestly, I am not really bothered either way as it is ancient history. I am all for the brave new David Moyes we hopefully have at the helm.

But the best Everton left back I saw, was Baines. And yes, I'd put him above Van den Hauwe.

Possibly one of the few players I could have put in that 80s side.

Moyes improvised well this season playing O'Brien as a right back. It was clear that Seamus' legs were gone an he didn't see Patterson up to the job, but it worked.

But Baines wasn't a fit left back, you can't go from being injured to fully fit overnight!! Fitness takes time.

And was the ankle injury he suffered in the October through November the same ankle that required the operation in the close season? Meaning that it was never fully healed?

I didn't say he had an ankle injury when he signed, maybe it was meaning it was a season long problem thY needed to be managed, but he was injured and didn't make his debut until the 4th game of the season.

"He eventually made his debut in the home game against Blackburn and was first choice at left-back until he succumbed to back-to-back injuries that sidelined him for the best part of two months "

"The left-back has been plagued by fitness problems since he arrived at Goodison and finally had the operation in May 2008 to remove a piece of bone on his ankle."

Baines

QED

There's other sources out there that will enlighten you in the same way, if you care to think beyond the "Dithering Davey didn't trust Baines" rhetoric.

It was a hamstring injury Steve which kept him out of pre-season training.

As with Martin I just object to Colin stating his laughable facts as if he's the only person that knows what Moyes is thinking, before Moyes even thinks it!

He's just postulating clearly biased 'what ifs' and knows nothing.

This one's already tins of Uhu!

Is this just a Moyes phenomenon or could we go back further? Indeed are we allowed?

I think I've found some unrcordederded dithering in 1983 from Kendall over Sharp, Ratcliffe, and Southall.

Too late for you? I reckon Colin Harvey was ready at least for the early round of the European Cup. Could we have signed Dixie earlier?

Appreciate its a slow news day, but bloody hell, this is nuts.

Martin@ 181, are you serious? When I think of managers who have had success in the Premier League, Davy Moyes is not a name that springs immediately to mind. Also, you personally having never seen examples of his dithering, does not make it so. Read out loud your lines " a manager that has had his success" and tell me, hand on heart, that you meant it.

Where on earth did you get the idea that I want you to accept what I say ?????. What makes you think I care what you think ?

I think Moyes has done a very decent job since he comes back, but I reserve the right to criticise without having to explain myself to a rabid group of people who think he is some sort of Deity, above criticsm.

You demonstrate your ignorance when you claim I am in a minority of one. Wrong! Thousands and thousands...And Thousands of Evertonians had labled Moyes Dithering Dave long before I said it on this thread.

Learn yourself a lesson; if you don't agree with a criticsm, say so and move on. Dont believe for one minute you will brow beat anybody into withdrawing it because you don't like it. People may misconstrue that sort of behaviour as a tad controlling... This thread would have died a death two days ago if the rampant apologist were not still baying for blood.

You will never succeed. Normal fans who want to feel free to express an opinion wont let you