Aston Villa ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans from Villa Park

Nonsense, Tony.

Tony, the Maccabi fans are the problem.

The police don't want them because they are worried they'll cause trouble.

Oh, Tony.

Dear oh dear.

They can't be any worse than Rangers supporters, surely?

It is amazing though the inconsistency when it comes to politics, sport, fan bans, team bans etc.

Maccabi fans caused a riot in Amsterdam so the Police in Birmingham unilaterally ban them from attending a game in England. Meanwhile, for years, we put it on the French government (riots at the 1998 World Cup), Netherlands (Euro 2000 with 900 English fans arrested), Germany (2006, 200 arrested in riots at Stuttgart) to deal with our yobs.

All of these incidents being entirely predictable and coming post Heysel. Not to mention the sorry history of say Galatarassay fans rioting and killing rival fans for example.

At the same time, South Africa have apartheid -- banned from Sport. USA southern states have segregation -- not banned from sports. Hitler awarded the Olympics. Argentine fascist junta awarded 1978 World Cup.

Russia invades Ukraine -- banned from sport. Yugoslavia civil war -- Yugoslavia banned from sports. Russia invades Afghanistan; USA invades Iraq; Turkey continues to occupy Cyprus; China ditto with Tibet; Armenia & Azerbaijan on and off war; Koreas still technically at war; genocides in Rwanda, Sudan, Cambodia -- all okay, no impact on sports.

Surely, we just accept that sports and politics are separate, and police do their jobs and manage situations as they arise. Instead of very occasionally banning nations or groups of fans for doing things everyone seems to do with impunity.

That's incorrect, Tony. It seems the West Midlands Police seem to be driving the ban -- not the club.

No Maccabi Tel Aviv fans allowed at Villa match

Except that's not the reason at all. Their fans are the problem. I guess what they did in Amsterdam was not their fault either? They should have been banned by Uefa anyway.

Talk about playing the victim card -- this is a ridiculous right-wing inspired post filled with anti-Muslim hate rhetoric.

Andy

You're being disingenuous. When PSG won the Champions League in June, over 600 were arrested and two people killed in riots that followed. I haven't seen any councils banning PSG fans from Premier League clubs since.

This is a political move in effect as it's seen as a victory for those who want Israel banned from football, as Russia have been. But it's because the West Midlands Police don't want to do their jobs.

Yes, some fans from this team committed criminal acts of violence in Amsterdam. But they were also attacked by others. With some media calling it an anti-Jewish “pogrom” while others highlighted the burning of a Palestine flag and the attack on a Palestinian taxi driver.

The Midlands police know agitators on both sides would love nothing better than to create carnage in Birmingham in and around this game. But their job is to anticipate and tackle such threats. Just as they do in Northern Ireland during marching season or during recent anti-Israel or pro-Israel marches and protests around the country.

They're choosing to avoid taking responsibility for a law and order situation that they're paid to deal with. Uefa can ban teams and fans but haven't done so presumably because they feel the problems so far haven't risen to the level of those that have seen other repeat offenders having to play in empty stadiums and so forth.

As far as banning hooligans goes, I'm all for it if you can identify them and not tar everyone with the same brush. As far as banning countries from sports, I'm opposed to it because there are few countries in the world that wouldn't have been banned at some point based on things that got a select few banned.

What I'd like to see is no one fighting, no one burning flags, no one making racist or anti-religious remarks. Those who do get banged up and the book thrown at them; those who want to peacefully exercise their right to protest whatever they want to protest should be allowed to do so peacefully.

But this is, as I say, a dereliction of duty by the police that will be viewed as political with even Keir Starmer tonight saying it's “anti-semitic.” Banning hooligans of a club is not anti-semitic or racist if there is just cause to do it based on precedents set by other situations.

But doing it when, as I say, PSG fans among others have done worse inevitably leads to the conclusion that an unfair example is being made of one group. I don't think that was the police's motivation.

But that's how it is being viewed by many including Tony and the Prime Minister among others. There's no need for it at all. Just do your job as police.

Andy,

It's possible we could be an Islamic state, or a Communist state. Someone to sort this mess we're in out.

Kieran, nice post.

Sorry - what the fuck has this to do with Everton FC?

This is pure political shit-stirring. I can't believe this has been sanctioned as a legit article open to comments.

Those saying the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans caused a problem in Amsterdam are wrong -- they were set upon there by a pro-Palestine mob and responded! They were not the instigators.

Brent #3 and Andy #7 -- there is a massive problem with the influence of Islam and Islamism in the UK. Already we have 5 MPs and countless local Councillors elected solely because of their stance on Gaza and the fact their increasingly large Muslim populations vote for them because they share a religion or because their Mosques, Patriarchs and 'community leaders' tell them to do so.

That number will only increase as their 6.5% of the population becomes larger still by 2029. There is some reputable modelling to show that by the end of this century, on current trends, 25% of the population of the UK could be Muslim -- were you aware of that?

And was either of you aware that a secretive Government Committee, composed entirely of Muslims plus Dominic Grieve (the wettest Tory who ever lived), is forcing through a legal definition of 'Islamophobia' -- last time I checked the dictionary, that means fear of Islam, not discrimination against it -- and if the definition is what they want it to be, then we will effectively have a blasphemy law protecting only the Islamic religion and no other.

But the Government will tell you there's no issue...

Do you think there are more Secretive Government Committees composed of Christians and Atheists plus a woman?

There's many a video out there showing that the MTV fans were singing vile racist chants referring to the children of Gaza when at Amsterdam airport.

Take your crap elsewhere.

This thread doesn't need to exist on an Everton fan site. It just stirs up unpleasant views and opinions.

There's enough of this type of stuff all over the Internet already, we simply don't need it on TW. I don't use social media at all and rarely come on TW now. Threads like this are even more off-putting.

Poor form by whoever chose to publish this. TW should be free from political discourse in my view.

Agreed James.

If they're so desperate for clicks that they're now prepared to platform highly objectionable political shit like this, then it might be time to give up ToffeeWeb if that's the way it's heading.

I agree, Jake, because it's not something I asked to be put forward for an article, rather than something I just posted when I was writing on another thread.

I was aware there had been trouble with them in Amsterdam, when they started trouble and came unstuck, which would definitely happen in a lot of European cities now because of the sheer volume of young Arab men and also people who are appalled by what has happened in Gaza.

But for the English police to ban them for their own safety is what I found most concerning,

Tony, you posted off-topic on a thread where it was not appropriate. It was distracting that thread, so it was made into a mailbag item and the comments it attracted were moved here.

Jake, I think your characterisation is incorrect. It is a general football issue not directly related to Everton FC but raising valid concerns for some regarding the banning of fans from a Premier League football ground.

The usual caveats apply to all such posts, that we are not responsible for any content created, submitted and/or posted on ToffeeWeb by any of our users. Content submitted by users represents the views of their author only.

Thanks for the explanation, Michael, and at least it made sense starting me at the beginning.

I have read many threads that have been spoiled by posts being removed and put somewhere else, because this isn't how ToffeeWeb, used to be.

Someone replying to something that is no longer there, often makes that person look stupid, so I preferred the old way where threads used to constantly run off and back on track.

It's an emotional subject for many people but I was watching the news and this came up whilst I was posting, and I just felt it showed the massive contradiction right there way across our society right now.

I've had a much more sensible conversation with a friend who disagrees with me on this subject, but when the conversation started he was a lot more aggressive than Brent, which I actually prefer for obvious reasons.

I'd say we live in a more inclusive country.

Good desicion to ban the away fans if they think there's going to be trouble, our police forces are stretched to the limit and think of the local population who don't want their City or possessions smashed up.

Hi Tony,

Posting off-topic is always a problem for the reasons you state.

You ended by characterising it as a religious issue, fanning the centuries-old flames of animosity between them, and going with an unfortunate meme about the UK becoming an Islamic state.

It triggered a strong response, which is understandable as views are currently so polarized. But the backlash against this ban is widespread, and it seems for good reason.

Ayoub Khan, a pro-Palestine Birmingham MP whose Perry Barr constituency is close to Aston Villa's ground, launched a petition against the Israeli club's match shortly after the fixture was announced. Jeremy Corbyn, the former Labour leader, was quick to add his backing.

Alongside his petition to boycott the match, Khan said in a video posted on X that “we are calling on Uefa, the UK Culture Minister, and the club itself to urgently cancel this fixture or take immediate steps to ensure public safety and community harmony”.

The campaign against Israeli fans also involved the “Game Over Israel” group, which is supported by the likes of Bob Vylan, the musicians who chanted “death to the IDF” at Glastonbury. The campaign group handed a dossier about Maccabi Tel Aviv fans to West Midlands Police on October 6.

News that police were advising Birmingham council to ban travelling fans from going to Villa Park came just hours after a Birmingham-based Muslim cleric made it ferociously clear that Israeli fans would face serious, potentially dangerous, hostilities next month.

In a video address that rapidly went viral on X after being posted on Wednesday morning, Asrar Rashid said: “We will not show mercy to Maccabi Tel Aviv fans travelling to Birmingham for the Aston Villa FC match.”

That's the kind of people we now have in the UK who can spout their bigoted religious hatred seemingly with impunity.

Right. Now we see why you decided to platform this inflammatory load of bollocks, Michael. So you could add your GB News-esque pennys worth to it.

The report by Dutch police after the trouble in Amsterdam pointed the blame for starting it at the Maccabi fans who were going through train carriages singling out Middle Eastern men and attacking them, and continuing this through the streets of Amsterdam - corroborated by a BBC journalist who witnessed it first hand.

Word got out in Amsterdam that this was happening and people came out to confront this band of violent racists in their city. The decision to ban them by West Midlands police was taken on safety grounds based on this - they didn't want inflammatory Islamophobic racists on the streets of Birmingham. Maccabi fans are notorious for causing trouble wherever they go, it's hardly a surprise communities don't want this on their doorstep.

But yeah, Britain's going to hell in a big fat Muslim handcart isn't it, Michael?

You know what? If this is the route you're taking ToffeeWeb, I'm outta here. Like others have already stated, they come to ToffeeWeb to get away from the polarised political shit on social media. Now it's getting dragged in here, desperate for clicks.

Fuck that.

Michael #16. Agree with point you make In para 2.

Falling during yet another international break (which nobody other than the sports media seems interested in) this has been the main football talking point in my office this week -where I am the only EFC fan.

For what it's worth, the collective view of my colleagues (all of whom live in the London area) is that if the Met can police the pro-Palestine / anti-Israel marches (opinions vary of course regarding their true intent) that take place in London every weekend, then Midlands police should be able to handle a one-off game.

The demand for “free speech” from the far right and left is to enable them to spout anti-semitism, hatred of Islam and racism on social media.

They know they can influence people to make more extreme views and polarise society.

If the trade-off for eradicating these extremists is to enhance the laws against hate speech, I am all for it.

Mark @ 11,

Reform also have 4 MPs based on their anit-foreigner and anti-immigration aims. The good thing is that extremist platforms such as Islamic extremism, neo-Nazism or Christian evangelicism rarely gain a big enough constituency in a parliamentary democracy. Most people are mature and balanced in their views.

You seem to equate Islam as a foreign religious ideology, despite the fact that many of the UK's Muslims were born in Britain. Me for instance.

And your generalisations that all Muslims are homogenous and simply follow the diktats of the Iman and the mosques is as ridiculous as claiming all Catholics follow the Pope.

As in Christianity, there are multiple strands of Islam. Most Muslims absolutely reject the use of violence to spread religion, which is why so many died fighting Al-Qaeda and Isis.

Mike,

Indeed pro-Palestinian marches take place frequently in London... only last week there was up to half a million who marched and yet there is little violence and the marches are allowed based on recent 'intelligence'.

The decision to ban Maccabi Tel Aviv fans was taken by the local Safety Advisory Group (SAG) who would have received the latest 'intelligence' from local police... probably from their recent match in Amsterdam.

The SAG decision would have been based on likely disorder.
Why have Amsterdam taken the decision to ban the same fans?

Jake,

Quite happy for you to put the other side of the argument but you make a fool of yourself by claiming that "Britain's going to hell in a big fat Muslim handcart."

Why on earth would you post something like that? No-one except you (and Tony) has said anything like that.

If the ban is reversed, as seems possible now, and the kind of policing described by Mike @21 is provided, I think that would be the appropriate way to handle this, rather than banning fans.

Along with the arrest and prosecution of Muslim cleric Asrar Rashid for his hate speech and incitement. Or is that something you condone?

Divide and Conquer. Keep the peasants down, arguing amongst themselves.

Still working. Nothing's changed.

Bloody Norah...there's so much conflict and bitching on this site today makes me look forward to the light hearted ribaldry of the Live Forum later.

Ooo... thanks for the prod, Alan!

Don't start on the Prods, Michael it's bad enough with the other stuff

This thread ought to be deleted. The content of the opening article and the title are factually incorrect.

It has nothing to do with nor impact upon Everton and has no place in ToffeeWeb.

Political discourse should be encouraged IMO. TW has a wealth of information and experience that is too often shut down or cancelled for fear of offence.

Listen and disagree or agree -- it doesn't mean you have to hate someone or feel threatened.

Football fans are tribal and if their country is at war -- more so. If they break the law, arrest them and ban them from travelling to this country again.

Well done, Martin @30. I pointed that error out to Tony at #6.

I disagree with you though. As a general topic, the banning of fans from a Premier League ground for a football game is something that I can understand being an issue that some Everton fans may have a view on.

If you don't, that's fine.

If Maccabi Tel Aviv fans are allowed to attend, there will be some issues, caused by conflicting views about the Gaza conflict. Whether it will be major trouble will depend on the level of policing. I expect lots of Palestinian Flags will be flying from homes and cars. How that goes down with the Maccabi fans will have to be seen. If they react then the police will have their hands full. Fingers crossed it goes ahead without trouble.

I didn’t say that Michael, (nothing about going to hell) I said decisions like this give me a feeling that we are on the way to becoming an Islamic state. (This was before I’d even found out that a Muslim politician had started a petition to get them banned)

Gary Neville has taken a lot of stick for blaming far right middle-aged Englishmen, for using the union flag, and anyone who watched any of the Labour Conference, will have noticed the Labour politicians all pathetically waving little Union jacks.

We live in England, and England, is a Christian country. The Israeli fans, are allegedly getting banned for their own safety, and I personally think this is very alarming, because I don’t think it’s got anything to do with football, but rather a deep rooted hatred, that a lot of Muslims have towards Jews.

It’s a different argument to debate wether this is justified but I don’t think many people could argue that this isn’t 100% true?

If some postings are to be believed, then Britain will soon have a Muslim population that can affect elections in a similar way to the Jewish vote in America.

Bring Henry VIII back, I say, before the Pope's XI arrive in town or better still build a Mosque on a hill somewhere from which you can see a large Synagogue in much the same way as our two current cathedrals, and do it before some unruly mob arrives in town, or are they just across Stanley Park?

You couldn't make it up, could you? Still it'll all end when we become a republic. 3 o'clock kick-off is it?

Alan that is already the case. Not in terms of the overall electorate but in a number of parliamentary seats. So called "community leaders" will help get the Muslim vote out, for one side or the other (usually Labour). Bit like the old Tammany Hall stuff in Boston and NYC getting the Irish vote out.

The Labour Party will hold a certain number of seats in East London, West Midlands and West Yorkshire because of the Muslim vote. One of the reasons why Labour treats Islamic issues very delicately.

Alan M (#36); There's usually only two reasons for political policy, What will get us the most votes or What will lose us the least votes. Putting aside Nobel prizes, of course.

Kieran, you said (talking about the police) “But their job is to anticipate and tackle such threats“.

Isn't that exactly what they're doing? I can imagine Maccabi fans clashing with local Muslims and people saying “Why didn't the police anticipate this and stop them travelling?”

Tony, I think this ban is a direct reaction to what happened in Amsterdam rather than a sign of anything bigger or deeper; I can't really blame anyone in Birmingham for wanting to avoid that happening there.

Fuckinell, Tony.

The voice of reason on ToffeeWeb has succumbed to Yaxley Lennon.

You'll be painting roundabouts next.

Tony, You are smarter than that. This isn't a Christian country, mostly agnostic. About as true that "we" still have an empire.

This really is the stuff of little boys who still think their long lost war comics were history books.

Martin

Echoing Michael, it does resonate with Everton fans as we were banned from Europe along with our team for hooliganism that had nothing to do with us.

Repeating my earlier point though, if it was just about hooliganism, then why no clamour to ban PSG fans who caused a bigger riot (among themselves) and killed two people just a few months ago and long after the Maccabi riot?

Obviously it is political as the Prime Minister — who I can't stand — has signaled, even though it's initiated by a local MP from his own party. I don't agree with Tony's broader views. But I do agree with the fact that we should have an equitable playing field and not arbitrarily treat one club differently from any other regardless of the motivation behind such a move.

Kieran,

Thanks for your reasonable and balanced comments on this thread, and for articulating a fundamental concern that triggers many Evertonians of a certain age when it comes to banning fans or clubs from competitions they have qualified for. Perhaps I should have spelt that out earlier.

Those objecting to this thread appear to be ignoring this connection, and allowing their polarized views of the age-old conflict between Israel and Palestine (or is it Jews and Muslims?) to require its cancellation.

Thanks for that Sam, you have just given me a great idea mate, I think I might go to Villa Park, and paint the Star of David, onto roundabouts, mate🤦‍♂️

Thanks Ged, I’m learning and I’m learning because you are trying to educate me through sensible debate, mate.

Agnostic, to the point that nobody really believes or agnostic to the point that something about this petition and then ban, stirs me because it seems to be both racially and politically motivated?

Live and let live, is my motto, and it’s a motto that has served me well over my lifetime, so when I see football supporters banned for their own safety, it’s not something that sits pretty with me.

Guess what, I don’t like seeing pensioners arrested for protesting against the horrific genocide in Gaza, either, so like a lot of people, I’m not left and I’m also not right, (although I’m beginning to lean a little bit towards the right) especially because a right wing politician has just -managed for the time being - to stop the slaughter in Palestine.

As I have mentioned on an earlier post, all this division amongst the people is calculated and working to the advantage of the global puppet masters. THEY don't give a flying f..k about any of us. THEY control us through the banks. Religion v religion, colour v colour,, ideology v, you get my drift, the list goes on. Been going on for millenia. THEY will have their slaves. Soon

Tony,
the slaughter hasn't stopped in Gaza...it's just slowed down.
There's plenty of examples of that since the ' Ceasefire '
BBC News - Eleven killed after Israel hits bus in Gaza, Hamas-run civil defence says
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpv1nk7dy4yo

I doubt it will ever end Stephen. (I talked about deep rooted hatred in an earlier post, and this deeply rooted hatred, absolutely goes two ways)

I’ve just watched a really good clip of an Israeli journalist, who gives his opinion on the atrocities, and he talks about a lot of Jews, having a belief of superiority, and also that they have been both the only, and also the biggest victims in the world.

I started thinking of our neighbours at this point, and as much as I hate Liverpool, I would never want to ban them from Bramley Moore!

This might change after our self appointed - self superior neighbours, come to our new stadium and show that lack of self awareness, that they are famous for, but when it comes to being really serious, then look I will look no further than Jeff’s post at number forty five.

Tony ( & Jeff's post)...I couldn't agree more.

Alan J #35: "... in a similar way to the Jewish vote in America."

A popular trope among those of a certain political bent, but false.

Jews are 2.4% of the US population. We don't swing national elections.

Muslims are already 6.5% of the UK population.

Oh dear:

Tel Aviv derby football match cancelled after riots broke out in and around the stadium.

Well, well, well...

Tel Aviv football derby cancelled after 'violent riots', as club describes 'brutal police violence'

I thought it was initially being reported that these people were supposedly getting banned for their own safety.

There's a big difference between condemnation of the Israeli army's attacks on Palestinians and anti-semitism in the UK. And that's what the media use to stir up division.

Anyone daring to condemn Israel for heavy-handed military action is branded as anti-semitic. And that's not right.

I know lots of nice Jews. I also know lots of nice Muslims.
They're not all terrorists or murderers of the innocents.

What is the problem? The police are banning a known group of violent supporters from creating violence in the City of Birmingham. This is what the citizens expect from them.

Regardless of religion it is the responsibility of the Police to protect its citizens; this is what they are doing.

Mike (#49);

Are all of voting age, and how does that affect the different voting systems and what were the majorities in each country's system?

Tropes, damn tropes and statistics, eh.

The 'excuse' is the Ultras.

The 'reason' is that various governing bodies around the world have more or less ceded control of city centres to protestors.