Everton hope to wrap up Carlos Alcaraz transfer before month's end

They have an option to sign him by 31st May, as far as I know…

So sign him up before other offers come in.

Correct, Christy, and both The Times and The Athletic are reporting what Anjishnu has posted.

It'll be interesting to see how, or if, our recruitment approach and transfer dealings this summer differ from the protracted and last-minute approach from past windows.

Securing this guy early could be an indication.

TFG has better not fuck this one up.

They had better sort this one out before Sunday mass and I 'm sure that they will as we keep on being told what brilliant corporate lads they are.

Liverpool Echo report 'major boost' for Everton as negotiations are now progressing with Alcaraz's club over a transfer, expected to be wrapped up in the next few days.

We were all told we had an option to purchase, no further negotiations with the club should be necessary. How is this a 'major boost'???

Will we be told Everton receive a 'major boost' to their finances when lots of our players contracts end next month? No doubt.

Come on Blues get this sorted ASAP. He's become a real fans favourite in his time here.

A full pre-season under his belt and he'll be rearing to go next season. He looks like he's enjoying his time here and, with a proper run in the team, he'll get more consistent.

22 years of age, an International as well, a definite no-brainer.

TFG employe people to sort things like this out PF. If it fails it's not on them

Ho hum PH (Hewey to others), don't you think that anyone who TFG decides to employ is therefore the responsibility of TFG who are always at all times accountable for the decisions that they make? Of course they are.

It most definitely is "on them" and the decisions they make for which they are to be held responsible. That's why corporates like TFG throw people under the bus.

Is it possible that the main issue is delaying the end of May clause to meet PSR?

Interesting thought Ernie...
Let's get Gana Gueye signed up quick too...

I wouldn't think so, Ernie #9.

My understanding is that loan contracts run to the end of June so the impact of any permanent transfer agreement will fall into the next PSR period.

Get him signed. Incredible value at that price and we know what we are getting with loads of potential for him to get better.

I really like Nick Woltemade and I would really like us to pursue a deal for him early in the window. Early business is always the best.

Securing Idrissa as well as a back-up for him is important.

It appears Moyes is getting Alcaraz to be more positive when on the ball and move into more dangerous positions when off it. He has great potential and is exactly the player we should sign.

Not sure I am too bothered it will be 'corporate money' that will buy him. Or small business money, or billionaire benefactor money, or co-operative money, or charity money or a whip round among well-meaning academics…

Just get him signed.

Agreed, Brendan.

Any amortisation charge would be in the next accounting period.

For the sake of keeping TWers from being at each other's throats about the veracity of this or that, and to set a good example and foundation for our emotional discussions, it would be good, Anjishnu, if you provide sources for articles like this.

I get that it's being reported widely, but let's say that, unless you're getting it from the horse's mouth.

Unless a payment structure was inserted into the original deal, I guess Flamengo feel emboldened by Alcaraz's adaptation and performances to demand a larger up front payment. If a deal with Everton isn't completed then there'll be no shortage of European clubs willing to pay more than £12.6M.

Regarding amortisation, if he is purchased by end of May then a 4-year deal would be extended by one month to 49 months with only 1/49th falling into the 2024-25 year accounts. At £12.6M this would be a paltry £250k.

Jonathan #15

If we restrict articles to those we get "from the horse's mouth", it will be a much quieter ToffeeWeb.

Brendan (17),

I think Jonathan is asking for an indication of sources to be included in the OPs, not restricting the OPs themselves.

Si #18

Did you see any ToffeeWebbers "at each others throats" on this thread?

This article gives more information than before. It seems as though he played in 15 games and less than 9, not 8 as previously reported, were starts.

The mandatory clause which Everton referred to as optional is referring to rights rather than a transfer fee and there is mention of personal terms. The deadline is the 31 May. The transfer window opens on 1 June.

Si and Brendan, I was making a joke about people at each other's throats just because some of that nonsense seems to have popped up lately, even if it's usually just a few culprits.

But yes, I was just saying if we're stating something as fact (ie, not in the rumours section), then I think the author should be clear about where that information is coming from. Otherwise, I have to go searching to find out if it's actually true or how true it is.

I'm not one for rumours or gossip, but if the sources Mike Gaynes quotes are calling it, there could be legs in this going ahead. I won't claim to understand the ifs and what's about the financials, I'll just be glad when we sign him permanently.

This will be a sensible investment by the club for buttons in the context of modern Premier League football transfers. And it is right in front of their noses. The scouts can concentrate on other targets.

Brendan, like you, I don't see supporters at each others' throats on this one. Certainly not at the match. I know a few have reservations, which I understand as it doesn't always come off. But, along with Ndiaye, he excites when he picks up the ball. We've been starved of that for too long. Maybe James Rodriguez, but we didn't get to see him live and surrounded by our passionate supporters.

He was great against Newcastle on Sunday, but my favourite performance was away at Palace. The assist for Beto through direct running and a clever, pin point precision through ball. But then his goal. The Everton supporters and players screaming for a penalty; the players not paying much attention to anything else.

The ball fell to him, and the calmest person in the stadium kept his head and slotted it in. We forgot about that penalty shout in micro-seconds!! One of the basics of football you are taught as a kid. Play to the whistle.

Aged 22, a positive attacking player and he will get better, with better players around him. Over to the owners, Mr Moyes and the recruitment team.

Don't worry about it, Jonathan.

We all know you on these pages and you are very balanced.

Wait until the summer kicks in. There will be plenty of healthy debate on transfer speculation.

Now let's get Gana sewn up and move on to other targets to improve the quality and depth of the core squad we have.

Good job we won our Mini League against Spurs, Man Utd, Wolves and West Ham Utd as the extra money for finishing 13th instead of 17th basically pays the £12M or so for Charly.

I really hope we get this done as I've got a bit of a bad feeling it's going to fall through. Everton, that.

And they do say never to fall for a loan player!

Lee, Everton that mate I get, but also TFG that.

This is their first handling of a situation like this and let's hope that they don't let you and everyone else down.

Let's hope it's completed before Wimbledon.

Stephen at 16, thank you, that is a really helpful intervention.

Any wider thoughts about our PSR position for 2024-25? With PSR losses for 2022-23 at £62M and estimated losses at £38M for 2023-24, then given the £105M accumulated limit over 3 years, things must be very tight. Will we have to sell by the end of June?

Next year, the PSR position will be far different with the £62M dropping out and the income from the new stadium plus so many big earners leaving on 30 June.

Let's hope it's not another Manuel Fernandes episode.

PF@25.

TFG owned Roma long before getting us, they know what there doing.

I get the feeling you hope this transfer doesn't happen so you can say "I told you so".

PH 29, your intuition is as bad as your predictions.

Their time with Roma has nothing to do with us.

TFG are a billionaire dollar industry…

You think a £12M transfer is too hard for them to complete?

He'll sign up, as well as Gana.

As for Delap……who knows?

I'm not sure the manager is 100% convinced and, as we all know, he does like to be 100% convinced.

Alcaraz blows hot and cold. He's been around 4-5 years now and has consistently failed to find consistency. Yeahh he's produced a few eye-catching moments, but there have been long periods of anonymity.

Moyes likes his players to be at least a consistent 6/10. Alcaraz can range between 4/10 and 8½/10. I wonder if Moyes will be comfortable with that? I wonder if he feels he can get that consistency from him?

Another reason Dave will be dithering will be Charly's hot-headed nature. He will have already seen him react angrily several times to what appeared to be innocuous challenges. Moyes will not have liked that.

On his day, Charly Alcaraz is definitely better than what we have, but I believe Moyes will be still scratching his chin about blowing what will probably be the lion's share of his budget on a player he isn't sure about. He will prove to be a bigger reason this transfer is being dragged out than TFG.

Our boy Davey has been a very pleasant surprise this season… but do ditherers ever stop dithering?

PH, I have not said either way so please don't put words in my mouth. I have no idea whether TFG will fuck this up because I have no knowledge of them.

But one thing I do know is that super brilliant Yank corporate money folk will fight over every last $.

Colin #33,

His performances for us have been very impressive and, for £12M, it's definitely not a gamble, considering Harrison is valued at £11M… no-brainer.

Colin, I'm going to be kind to my 2nd cousin and drop the word 'dithering'. Let's call his approach 'considered' or 'shrewd'?

But I hope the club (it's not all down to him), act quickly on this one.

The lad, and he is still a lad developing, has a lot of potential.

Colin mate, he's 22 and doesn't speak English.

Give him a season and I think we will have a total baller on our hands for £12M!!!

The Dithering Dave stuff is so 2010.

Modern Premier League managers have minimal input in transfer dealings at best.

Colin #33,

I think you are closer to the truth. This article delves away from the thread of previous information, with new information, but I still don't believe a decision will be made till nearer the end of June for the reasons you have highlighted.

Gana and Calvert-Lewin would be more of a priority. Starts and appearances – I don't know how such an agreement could have been agreed to. After Alcaraz scoring that goal, it was always going to result in some definitive hype.

Unlike your favourites, Blue Bill and Moshiri, who chucked money away.

You can't have it both ways, PF.

100% dithering Davey. He can get to fuck.

The season finished on Sunday, and we're still waiting on Alcaraz… what the fuck is that all about?

Knife to gunfight, bottles it against the Top 4, not won a cup. Good start, but clearly slipping into his old ways. Ruins strikers, workman-like midfield. Glances down ToffeeWeb Moyes Bingo sheet, think we are done.

Moyes Out. I can't stand the optimism.

Andrew,

You are so up to scratch with how clubs are run these days...

Trust me when I tell you: No player will be coming into this club without the Moyes seal of approval. He will have a limited budget and will already have insisted (before he signed) on having a huge say in how it will be spent. It's how he rolls.

People can scream "bargain" until they are blue in the face, but Moyes wasn't listening to them when he was leaving Alcaraz on the bench… and he wont be listening to them now.

Ian. We, Everton, can't sign anyone until the transfer window opens, surely?

Where do you think we'd have finished without Moyes?

Do you think Dyche would have kept us up? Dear God…🤷🏼‍♂️

The recruitment team will surely already know whether they want Alcaraz - and will also know that finding better for the same price is pretty much impossible.

So I presume the wait is just because of contact terms and financials.

Most clubs are in the same boat. Hardly any signings announced at this stage.

Paul Hewitt 40 Unlike your favourites blue bill and moshiri who chucked money away

Are you fucking crazy PH? You should not be driving to work. My fucking "favourites"! Show me one word to support this. You will not be able to. Fuck me. You're nuts lad.

Ray,

We, Everton, can't sign anyone until the transfer window opens, surely?

Technically, I think that's right, Ray. But a lot of shenanigans seem to go on outside of the window wedlock, such are the permissive mores of the game these days.

Seems if you're bold enough and your recruitment team have secured a signature on a contract, then you can leak it to the media hounds and transfer gurus ahead of the official window, which is effectively just the time when new players can be registered, thus officially 'transferred'.

Michael, what other summer 2025 deals have already been announced in this way by Premier League clubs? Probably a few examples but not many.

Only needs one, Robert.

I'm sure I've heard a few being 'signed' by other clubs already. But, because they were by other clubs, they didn't stick, I'm sorry.

PF@45. How many examples do you want. I'm sure I can find plenty. Don't back track.

Robert, Frimpong at Liverpool and Cunha at Man Utd are probably the closest but you're right.

We see these comments every year as if protracted transfer negotiations as if it's unique to Everton.

I think Moyes can get us 10th, and with good recruitment will be the difference if he could get 7th.

Dyche would have taken us down. He was done. He couldn't buy a goal, never mind a win.

The recruitment will tell us a lot. If he's able to pull off some mini transfer coups like a Cherki type, Id be a lot optimistic of a 7th. A Tom Fellows type and I think hes looking at a 10th, as that little bit of missing pace and quality costs.

It's a hard ask getting top players in without European football and poor recent record. But he does have a lot of wage budget to play with.

Cherki, Diarra, etc are not on big money in France.

Robert, Tommy Watson who scored the winner in the play off on saturday. It was announced a month ago that he would be joining Brighton and had signed a contract. It just can't be registered until the window opens,+.

He initially got some stick from the fans but I guess he paid them back now

How about this one, from back in March:

Chelsea agree £18.5M deal for midfielder Essugo

FR#45
No, I am straight.

Thank you Michael - after 30 minutes of hunting you found one. As I said, there will be a few examples but not very many. As Andrew says, the speed of negotiation / sealing deals etc at Everton is really not unusual / unique.

Complications with PSR and the (unknown to us) contract terms with Flamengo (and who knows - and third party ownership) are probably the barriers - if indeed there are barriers. Who knows - it may all get announced over the weekend (which is what the article suggests).

Peter #27. Clearly I don’t know real detail of our PSR position but from the published accounts in 22/23 we lost £89m and 23/24 we lost £142m. Those 2 years alone total £142m, well above the £105m limit, although there are allowances re stadium, women’s team etc.
As a result we must be having to quite tightly manage this financial year to 30th June, although we may already be seeing the benefits of BMD as season ticket receipts must be much higher and possibly naming rights income already accounted for? As a result I don’t expect to see much activity coming in before 1st July, although deals may be agreed in advance.
Once we enter the new financial year for 25/25, however, I expect that position to change significantly as, assuming we have managed to comply this year, the large loss of 22/23 will drop out of the calculation, significantly increased revenue from BMD etc we should have significant PSR scope so I am hoping for significant activity from 1st July

It doesn't need me to tell people that a lot of activity will be going on behind the scenes.

But it can't be announced until it is contractually able to do so.

Liverpool are reported to have secured the services of Florian Witz, the attacking midfielder from Leverkusen. Only 22 and has already played nearly 30 games for Germany.

They haven't confirmed it yet.

We are all eager to hear news, but until it's a done deal, we are just guessing.

John # 56, that seems to explain the predicament very clearly. Not hugely surprising we're still up against financial issues - but it looks like they will ease in future years.

Sorry I don’t understand what everyone is panicking about. We have until 31 May to agree a deal and a deal will get done

Now Jerome is saying the deal won’t get done until the end of June because DCL and Gana will be a priority.

Can we not do more than one thing at once?

Blue Bill chucking money away, has got to be one of the most bizarre and outlandish sentences I’ve ever seen written on this website!

I personally Robert T, is the voice of reason with his views@44

A manager wants a say who comes into the football club he’ll be managing.

Heaven forbid!!!

A manager should have a say Ryan, because otherwise you end up with stupidly stubborn situations like Dyche, not prepared to use Jake O’Brien.

It can’t be possible that Dave is dithering over this. Alcatraz has been instrumental in a number of good performances since he turned up, I expect Moyes has given the thumbs up and moved on to other targets. The ‘talks’ must be around the terms and conditions of the deal. More money up front perhaps.

Mind you, we have no DoF and no Head of Recruitment in post, and that’s concerning. Super Kev Thelwell would’ve had this one done and dusted on favourable terms by now, no protracted talks, no dithering. I hope this sort of delay isn’t a sign of things to come.

What delay Jimmy? The season finished 3 days ago

Definitely Tony. Managers are getting their control back I think. Eddie Howe for example has the final say at Newcastle

The Alcatraz deal framework was agreed in the January transfer window,

The manager will, of course have influence, but not complete control in the sense that the traditional manager did in the past.

Maybe it's always been the case.

I can only go off historical footage, but did Harry Catterick want to sell Alan Ball? I'd have to ask those of that generation for their opinions. But it was the manager who faced the cameras and say it was a very good business decision, not the board who probably made the decision.

I doubt very much that Moyes made the decision to sell Wayne Rooney and, if we are to believe the player's own recollection, he didn't want to leave at the time. But the decision was made for both manager and player.

It's easy to label players as "Judas" for leaving, but often it is taken out of their hands. I stopped blaming players and even managers a long time ago. Decisions are rubber stamped at a higher level. They are commodities.

It works the same for incoming signings. The manager will have his say, make recommendations and be listened to, but ultimately the board will decide.

Especially now that we and most clubs have the DoF / Sporting Director / Recruitment Team model in place.

According to the bobble and other sources, Everton are ‘advancing in talks to extend Gana’s contract’

Yes the framework was agreed and he’ll sign on or before 1st June Jerome

Moyes definitely has to have a say as regards keeping players.That has to be first stage progress under this regime.Everton are the only Premier League Club to make a profit in the Transfer Market in this past five years.Squad wages have reduced by 14% over the same period.Cuts need to be coming from other areas of Everton, rather than the squad.Of course value needs to be achieved.

Blue Bill only chucked money into his wallet

A good fit for us, as he has proven in the games he has played for us so far. If we can add more quality players in the rebuild, it makes for exciting times ahead.

The goal he scored against the barcodes reminded me of Martin Peters ghosting into the penalty area from deep.

Does anybody know of an Everton supporters pub in New York, I know we have many American fans and some much travelled fans who might be able to help. Just that my Son and Grandson are in New York and they sent me pictures of a bar dedicated to Shane Lowry the golfer and I just wondered if there was an Everton supports bar they could visit while there.

Reports from Brazil ( and NO I'm not getting you a bloody link PF), saying the deal for Alcaraz will be done tomorrow.

Brian, I'll leave it to our American cohort, but having been to NYC several times, the Turn Mill in Manhattan has links to Everton.

They have a drop down "Everton FC" on their website, and in the gallery, there are pictures of supporters proudly holding up "New York City Evertonians" banners.

Link

The full URL is https://turnmillnyc.com

They advertise themselves as the proud home of the NYC Evertonians.

James, that is bending the truth.

Kenwright bought the club when it was worth diddly squat thanks to loans and Peter Johnson being hounded out. The value of the club grew due in part to the rise in the value of the premier league and part due to a manager who improved the club.

He then sold the club when it was worth millions.

So the millions he made was not taken out of the club - the millions were made in the same way those of us who bought our 3-bed semi detached in 1975 for £5,000 are handing it over in our will with a value of £250,000. Have we taken any money out of that house in those years?

Yes, he was paid for his work as a director and chairman and you may wish to argue that he was overpaid and his income was out of line with the overall finances compared to similar positions at other team. But did he take more out when Moshiri took over? Was Moshiri responsible for deciding on his remuneration?

And what he took was a pittance in relation to the amount spent by the club.

I would also suggest that how successful the team is may also have a bearing on how much influence a manager can exert when it comes to incoming and outgoing players

Jerome, are you suggesting we sack the tea lady?

Afterall, that does seem to be the way to go for a club overspending.

Danny @75,

Thanks for that info, I will text them to go and see it.

I went on the web but the pub I found closed over 12 months ago.

Phil @76.

I believe that is a good summary.

Turnmill Bar in New York City is very much open according to their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/turnmillnyc/

The headline now reads “before month's end”. As we're in the month of May, my experience tells me this deal will be confirmed on about 25 June.

Let's see if the new regime can do things differently…

Good post Phil, because it explains how Kenwright, made a lot of money out of Everton, just by keeping hold of the club for as long as possible before too many people began to realise they had been kidded.

Moshiri got Everton, into financial difficulties but produced a fantastic new stadium, and became the man (according to the seller who stayed on) who kept on giving.

I could go on but what’s the point? Especially when you come on this website to engage and learn, and although everything has been done to death, you still get nauseating throwaway remarks getting ridiculously posted from time to time, like the one Paul produced about the charlatan@40.

Maybe Paul, meant Moshiri, but brought Blue Bill, into it because a lot of money was wasted when he was his chairman, but either way it makes me sick when people come out with things that make it sound like Bill Kenwright, had Everton football club’s best interests at heart, because there is more than enough evidence to know that this just isn’t true.

I have this amazing trust in the club at the moment and nobody is so incompetent that they would pass up the opportunity to buy Charly at the price quoted.

We are showing signs that we are becoming professional under the new owners and the turnaround has been amazing.

I'm a bit confused about Thelwell going after seeming to make some very good buys and clear outs but I have to trust that the club had their reasons.

Phil #76 sorry mate I am not bending the truth. as just like you, we do not know the truth and never will

It is my opinion but there is a fair bit of evidence to support that. Been very well shared on this site.

You have a different opinion, then fair enough.

Danny, 67,

I understood at the time that it was Catterick's decision to sell Alan Ball to Arsenal, telling him "I have had 5 good years from you". He signed from Blackpool for £110k and went to Arsenal for £220k. I remember Gordon West being interviewed on TV, saying he respected Catterick' s decision. Ball was reportedly in tears on the train to London to sign for Arsenal.

Rooney has recently disclosed that he didn't want to leave Everton but found out Kenwright had offered him to Chelsea, a move that he would not have been happy with. Everton needed the cash to keep going. So he asked for a transfer believing he could then pick his own destination.

The business side of football is dirty and cut throat.

What I remember about the sale of Rooney was Kenwright saying at the time Rooney was on the phone to him all the time in tears begging him to let go to Man Utd, so him saying he didn't want to go is a load of bollocks and didn't he have a very dodgy agent at the time pushing for him to go to Man Utd as well.

He's worth £12M all day even if he never has a better game for us than he already has.

But more importantly, when are we selling the women's team… to ourselves.

Danny @ 67; I don't think he really wanted to sell Ball, he could easily find plenty... in his mind... valid reasons to let him go.

Ball of the 70s, was not the Ball of the 60s... while maybe not seeing that football of the 70s was not the football of the 60s.

Then there was Harry's well known resentment of anybody who naysayed him... and Ball certainly knew his own mind as they say. You were okay if you were on top of you game – until you weren't, or he had a replacement, or he could make a profit – or any combination of those.

Add in alleged gambling problems, then the chance for Harry to double his money was too much to resist.

It’s funny Martin, because I’ve had at least a couple of face to face conversations about Thelwell, being out of his depth, or people just simply pulling a face, when I’ve asked them for their opinion about him.

The reason I say this is because these conversations have taken place with people who have been, but are no longer employed by Everton, on the footballing side of things.

I suppose that’s football in a nut shell, in the sense that unless you have done someone a favour (Kenwright’s forte) then most people are not forthcoming with praise, but I don’t like the director of football role because unless everyone is on the same page, then I believe you simply get too many cases of managers not being totally happy with the recruitment, which must have obviously been the case with Jake O’Brien, considering the level of his performance since he has come into the side, playing out of his natural position.

Wow George🤦‍♂️

I'd never believe anything Kenwright said.

Wasn't Goodison supposed to fail its safety certificate about 15 years ago according to him.

Robert,

Google's Gemini gave me a long list… but I started checking and some of them were clearly wrong (usually loan players 'promised' to other clubs). Hence the delay in posting. There's loads more on the list. I just selected one that was indisputable.

As I said, it's not something I track, but I already had the impression that player transfer agreements being concluded outside of the transfer window was not all that unusual.

Clive @86.

I don't know how many times I've posted this over the years, but at a sportsman's evening in Wigan many many years ago, Harry Catterick said that he sold Alan Ball because Alan needed the money to settle his gambling debts.

We can only take him at his word, George.

If you watch the interview, he states quite clearly that once the club made it clear they were selling him, he would choose where he would go. The club made the decision and made him put in a transfer request.

And yes, agents are always involved, They get a cut of any transfer fee.

Left on to his own choice, he would have given us a couple of more seasons, but he was always destined for bigger things than where Everton were at the time.

Thanks for that Derek. It backs up everything I've heard. My dad still used to insist on watching Southampton on Match of the Day when Alan Ball played for them as he was nearing the end of his career.

Wayne Rooney on leaving Everton: ‘I was heartbroken’

Michael, as I said right from the start, there are deals done that way but not many. With those deals you'll tend to find two key ingredients (a) buying club has plenty of money / no PSR issues and (b) it's a no-brainer for the player. Sadly all of our business is still disrupted by (a) at least.

And as Ryan has said, he might well sign in the next day or two in any case.

Les, 93, Ball probably did have gambling debts, but he clearly didn’t want to leave and it’s not as if he was on £20 a week. It was an unpopular sale and Catterick saying that years later is probably bending the truth imo.
Catterick never liked Alex Young. They never got on.

Obviously Kenwright was as crooked as a dog's hind leg but I'm not sure I believe Wayne about only deciding to go once he heard Everton were trying to flog him.

He was a nightmare that previous season, disruptive, poor form, but then electric for England. And then, when he went to Man Utd, he was charging round everywhere scoring hat-tricks. I don't suppose we'll ever get to the bottom of what really went on, but if he'd wanted to stay, he would have stayed.

I'm hoping that the reason we let Thelwell go is cos Davey wants to do that side of things. why wouldn't he, it's what he does best. It's very Everton That though isn't it, lousy recruitment for a decade followed by getting it right for once, whereupon we tell the guy responsible to hop it.

Phil (76)

I'll amend that last line of your post — And what he took out was very much more than he put in — if he put anything in!

George (87),

I'm having a hard time picturing Rooney in tears on the phone to anyone!

Dave, he's a boxer from Croxteth. I don't think he has tears in him!!

He's probably like me and gets hay fever watery eyes now and then.

Kevin,

Didn't Rooney have a real falling out with Moyes? I got the impression that he really resented Moyes "holding him back" in that last season.

He'd proved how brilliant he was the previous season and what a fantastic talent he would become, but Moyes just seemed to not believe it.

There was something Rooney later said about Moyes in his book that the Scots fella took serious umbrage to and won or settled a legal challenge against Rooney.

Danny (100) He’s definitely a tough little nut—Well a lot bigger since he retired!

Michael,

Yes, it seems clear they did not get on looking back. Rooney was obviously difficult to handle (even Sir Alex struggled). And I agree I don't think Moyes handled him very well, being quite harsh with him.

I can't believe though that he couldn't see his world class talent, it was so obvious. I think Moyes was attempting to 'put him in his place' and also not overplay him.

At heart, Moyes was a centre-half, and they struggle to understand forwards, I think. I remember Lineker once saying on MotD deadpan about somebody: “Well, he's a centre half, isn't he. What does he know?” — which I thought was quite funny.

Michael @46,

Very true, Michael, but that is surely the point.

All sorts of things are going on that we know nothing about, so it's a bit silly for people to start slagging Moyes off and dragging up time worn “dithering Dave” comments and knives to gunfights when we haven't a clue what's going on.

Moyes seems to me to be a different manager than the one who left us for Old Trafford.

I'd forgotten about that, Michael.

Wasn't it something Moyes wrote in his book, which I haven't read? I think Moyes had to admit and accept libel damages for his accusations at the player. I'm sure there are those who know more about the detail.

The way this conversation has gone, it also reminded me of the manner in which Francis Jeffers left the club. It was very unsavoury if I recall. Probably part player, part club, But it wasn't nice to see a boyhood Evertonian leave the club in that way.

This is going off piste, but I've often thought there must be something in the water in what I would call east Liverpool given the number of players they've produced over the years. It depends on geographical definitions.

Peter Reid, Tony Hibbert, Joey Barton and Gerrard (I know, bad taste). All from Huyton. There are probably more.

Rooney and Jeffers. That De La Salle school seemed to breed footballers from Croxteth, probably more.

Joe Royle from Norris Green.

If we extend to Kirkby, we have Phil Thompson (bad taste again) and our own Leighton Baines.

I'm sensing something of a trend… perhaps there's enough material for Dr France to write his 20th and final Everton book: Misunderstood Genius:

David Moyes Mk II with Charly Alcaraz
David Moyes Mk I with Wayne Rooney
David Moyes Mk I with Paul Gascoigne
Gordon Lee with Duncan McKenzie
Harry Catterick with Alan Ball and Alex Young

Perhaps even going all the way back to Tommy Lawton, and I forget who it was that decided he should go to Arsenal at the end of WW2… Dave Abrahams, must be like yesterday!

If ya know yer 'istory…

Made me smile, Michael.

"We all agree, that Duncan McKenzie is magic".

My first Everton idol until Sheedy took over the mantle.

Going back, and to conversations in the Harlech, the wise elders also tell me how disappointed they were when we sold Bobby Collins to Leeds United.

Danny @ 105,

“Wasn't it something Moyes wrote in his book, which I haven't read? I think Moyes had to admit and accept libel damages for his accusations at the player. I'm sure there are those who know more about the detail.“

It was the other way round I think.

‘I hammered him’ – Wayne Rooney explains why David Moyes sued him after joining Manchester United

Moyes recognised Rooneys brillianance. Any idiot could. I think he thought not playing him too much so he wouldn’t suffer burn out ala Delle Ali.

Maybe he would do things differently now?

Everton needed the money from Rooneys sale to pay off debts.

A loan was repaid very shortly after the sale.

More Kenwright lies.

Kenwright was the one in tears to Sir Alex Ferguson and his mum had to take over the call to Sir Alex.

George#87 I completely disagree regarding Rooney, the club was heading into administration under Kenwright, and he's the one who said Newcastle offered £20m, and didn't Big Dunc say in his book, he advised Rooney not to go to the Magpies. Rooney himself said later Bill was trying to sell him behind his back, so he dug his heels in and wanted to join Man Utd. Don't know about the tears, but could you really believe anything Kenwright said?

My Uncle Harry was a Chief Inspector in Liverpool at the time Alan Ball left and he told me he was in big trouble with gambling debts. I would have said pay them off just to keep him but I feel that he was well past his devastating best when he went and had been since the 1970 WC. Selling Bobby Collins was just pure idiocy on the surface. He did wonders for Leeds.

‘They’re stealing our boy, they’re stealing our boy,” sobbed Bill. He then passed the phone to Alex Ferguson. “Don’t you dare think you’re getting that boy for nothing, that boy’s worth £50m,” growled a female voice, which turned out to be Bill’s old mum, Hope’

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/oct/25/bill-kenwright-everton-football-daily

@Christy #111, if there were tears, it was at happiness at avoiding ruin.

It'll be great to have the likes of Alcaraz as a full Everton player.

If people remember Trevor Birch told Kenwright to dilute his shareholding or sell Rooney to avoid administration.

Bill kept hold of his train set

Fair one Steve. As I said I don't claim to have read the facts, I just remember the animosity at the time. They seemed over it last Sunday

Anybody who thinks any player will come in without Moyes giving him the thumbs up is either drinking too much naive juice or simply hasnt been paying attention.

choosing to sell a player to save the club from financial disaster or to keep it afloat has nothing to do with who decides on which bargain budget players we bring in for something like 12m.

As for Everton having a recruitment team Dont make me laugh. We've never had one.

I still cringe when I think about Roberto Martinez skipping off to do a bit of world cup punditry telling us he expected the "recruitment team" to bring in 4-5 players in his absence. Only when he got back from his stint of moonlighting did he realise he WAS the recruitment team.

This club has been a shambles. Koeman bought who he wanted. So did Walsh. Very few of the latter's signing where given a fair crack o the whip by the former.

Big sam decided who he wanted.

Carlo brought his mates in whilst freely admitting he had never even heard of latest signing - Godfrey. Nobody seems to know who signed Doucourie.

Brands squandered hundreds of millions on sick notes and vanity buys. Lampard stood with a gormless look on his face looking for somebody to sign him a superstar.

Thelwell bought players Dyche ( the fella who picked the team)

wasnt remotely interested in. All this while Kenwright and Moshiri couldnt keep their meddling noses out.

"Recruitment team" ??? All we have ever had is warring factions spending fortunes, making individual decisions nobody else at the club agreed with. That's why we are where we are. Does anybody really expect TFG to allow that chaos to continue ?

I expect TFG to put together a professional team which once bedded in, will help us source and develop a decent squad of players, but unlike some on here. They will know that cant be done overnight. In the interim period life still has to go on. Players still have to be brought in...So they have appointed a safe pair of hands to mind the shop.

Recruitment team ? I would to cordially invite anybody who thinks we will sign a player Moyes doesnt want, to come see me on Betfair,

At this moment in time Moyes IS the recruitment team

Before my time, but wasn’t Ball 26 yeard old when he signed for Arsenal?

He should have been in his prime.

No player at any club should come in without the managers say so.

I’m sure the recruitment team presented Charly to Moyes and he gave the go ahead to bring him in on loan

Which is how it should be done imo

Even in a set up with DoF and Head Coach the Head Coach is in a prime position when it comes to selecting player buys. In that set up he would write a spec for the players that he wanted, help with selecting candidates and would almost certainly have the final choice on selection. I read that DM can't work in an organisation where he reports to a DoF, Everton's preference, but they have worked to accommodate him. Proof of the pudding and all that, he is pretty good at finding good buys but running an EPL Club with a "Manager" would surely be impossible now?

Christy 111.
The Rooney affair was instigated by Dagliesh, along with Sam Allardyce, both directors of an agency with the Hall family at Newcastle. They used Bobby Robson to make an offer, which forced Man United into buying Rooney a year before they wanted too.
There was a connection between Ferguson and Daglieshs father in law in Glasgow (owner of pubs and clubs), Ferguson had worked running one of their pubs before going into management.
They had sent a well known Glasgow gangster to put pressure on the original agent of Rooney.
Just lets say, they all made money over Rooneys transfer to Man. United.
Dagliesh was later interviewed by the Merseyside Police, after the original agent, made a complaint to the police. Every question was met by No Comment.
A wolf in sheeps clothing.

Things Moyes will probably do:

- share thoughts on particular players he'd like to recruit - obvious ones like Delap and players he has worked with before like Coufal
- share thoughts on the sorts of players he needs / wants to fit in with his tactical etc framework
- agree (or not) all first team squad signings whom he'll need to use this season and next

Things people in the recruitment team (whether that is fully assembled or not) will probably do:

- determine whether Moyes' specific targets are available and within budget
- source other players / options who meet Moyes' specifications
- piece together the moving feast of a plan in line with budgets / PSR etc
- liaise with agents / selling clubs etc and negotiate contracts / terms
- source, select and buy players unlikely to feature in the first team immediately (like John Dodds the 16 year old we've just bought from Hearts - and slightly older players like Chermiti was when we bought him).

Moyes will recognise that whilst he might want, say, Walker-Peters or Coufal as his new right back, these players might not want to come. It will not solely be for Moyes to come up with the Plan B. Plan B will come from scouting arrangements, relationships with agents, data analytics etc. Moyes might have a good knowledge of some of the other options - but not others. If he hasn't personally seen a lot of the likes of, say, Wesley or Sildillia, he might have to rely on others if these end up being the likeliest options for the RB slot based on availability / budget.

He'll want to understand what he's getting - but he's going to have to rely on others to source some of these players and explain how / why they deliver what he needs for his tactics, formation etc.

Kevin M, imagine having an owner who needed to sell you and an agent, who stood to do a lot better out of a deal to sell you?

The kid was seventeen years of age, Ferguson, allegedly thought he wouldn’t be able to get him for another twelve months at the earliest and then something obviously changed.

Trevor Birch, lasted about six weeks, and allegedly told Bill Kenwright, that for Everton to survive (let’s face it Everton would have always survived) then he would have to sell the asset.

Bill Kenwright never wanted to “relinquish control”, and the only way that Bill Kenwright, was going to be able to “stay in control” was by selling Wayne Rooney.

Rooney also went right at the end of the transfer window, too late for Everton, to go and sign a couple of players, that were definitely needed.

Moyes changed the system, and mostly went with a 4-5-1, that suited the personnel in his squad. After a disastrous start against Arsenal, we got a few very good results against the promoted teams and never looked back, but I’ve personally looked back many times over the years and wished we had never had Wayne Rooney, because my belief has always been that without him, Kenwright would have had to sell Everton a lot earlier, instead of cursing us for nearly another two fucking decades.

I’ve been enjoying Evertonians, being happier and looking forward to see what the summer brings, and probably should have ignored Paul H’s post🤦‍♂️

Steve@118, Bally was superb when he finally developed as a teenager and joined Blackpool. 1970 saw him at his peak and by then he'd won a World Cup and League title. He was incredible for Blackpool and had a massive goal return. He was sublime in the 1970 Everton side and the '66 and '70 WC and for me by far the best midfielders in the World anywhere across the park. In 1971 Everton lost their beautiful form of the 60's and for me it was down to the loss of form of Ball compared to his previous high standards. I thought at the time that it was also due to several clubs starting to play a nice 4-4-2 (Arsenal et al)that overwhelmed Everton's 4-3-3 and of course they'd figured how to stop Bally dancing down the pitch. That team should have been at the top for another 5 years but it couldn't function without Ball at his best. I would never say that he was a loss and we were none the worse for him going and he never recovered his 1970 form. By that time the die was cast for Everton though.

John@121, I remember reading an article about how the Met Police, had to take their investigation into The A Team, (the name the Adam’s family were known by) out of London, because they were that powerful and had that many connections that everything that was being investigated was getting back to them.

Who did Kenny Dalglish, turn up with for one of those meetings?

Where there’s money there will always be sharks, and my opinion of why the world is in such a horrible state right now is because it’s being controlled by the globalists!

Any story connected to Kenwright has me in tears— tears of bleedin’ laughter —- I knew two fella’s growing up who both worked together—X and Y— both brilliant liars but could make you laugh with their Tom Peppery, X was telling me a story when he saw the look on my face which was telling him I thought he telling me a load of bs he then said “ Look Dave if you don’t believe me ask Y— fuckin’ hell ask Y— I burst out laughin’ and so did X, he knew the score!

Mind you Kenwright thought people believed him when he told these bullshit tales and his mam would believe him because her Bill was wonderful— I wonder what a tough Glaswegian like Ferguson thought of the pair of them if this story was anywhere near the truth— Nah a load froth, poppycock and utter bollocks!

Tony yes, a sorry chapter indeed. I think it took all of us the best part of a decade to get over that episode. this could be the first time in a very long time when we actually can make a clean break. But even then, the squad is in such dire straits with so many leaving it's going to take a couple of years I think in mid table. Even if we bring in ten Gareth Barrys they've all got to gel and get on. All that team spirit Moyes has built up over the last six months 'I'm afraid it's back to square one on that front.

The bobble just now

‘ Everton are now set to sign Carlos Alcaraz after reaching an agreement with Flamengo’

Moyes had till noon, it's too late now.

I am done with him.

I must have slept the whole of June.

Moyes should have written the cheque on Sunday at 18:00

Dithering fool

Obviously just a cynical ploy by the club to deflect criticism given their failure to sign Delap.

Ah, the dark humour is popping to the surface already!

Brendan. Are you serious? I wouldn’t want to live in your cynical world!

And Jerome, it’s Alcaraz not Alcatraz!!!

George (87): WTF? Pressing submit was a very bad decision. You couldn't be more wrong. You even get the tears mixed up.

Danny (107): on the pedantic side but I always sang it and remember it without that "that". WAADMIM.

Things Moyes will definitely be doing.

Deciding who can come in.... And deciding who can be released.

Things Moyes may tempted to do.

Ring Robert Tressell and Ryan Holroyd to try to ascertain who these mysterious people are on the "recruitment team". Only despite getting the sniffer dogs in several times. Nobody at the club has been able to find any trace of them in the past ten years.

Thelwell told us months ago, when he signed Alcaraz that he had inserted an option to buy clause into the deal.

Thelwell has now gone leaving Moyes to instruct pen pushers and admin staff to dot the i's and cross the T's...At least until we have a real recruitment team