As Moyes returns to West Ham, is history repeating itself for old dog who won’t try new tricks?

"David Moyes, you will know, is a good manager, but he's going to be at the London Stadium. We've been improving our own factor, the support of the fans, and we count on them to try and compete well and have a good performance.

"[Playing a former team] managers have the advantage of knowing the players, sometimes the routines. In this case, David knows the routines, knows the players. So we have to try and make new things happen so we do not become so predictable.

"But it's not another game. It is always a special game due to the respect and love that you have from former clubs, but you want to win. You want to compete and win."

Hmmmm... he doesn't sound particularly concerned...

They know they are going to have to play well to get anything out of this game, we are solid if not spectacular. Both sides really need the 3 points but it does smack of a likely draw.

If you know Liverpool fans like I do, then you would know that a lot of them will be saying that they think Moyes is doing a fantastic job.

Harry is an Evertonian, writing on an Everton website, and his title is fine by me because this is something I've been asking myself for most of this season, especially when I've been coming away from Bramley-Moore Dock.

But here we are again, pointing the finger at our manager because he is 62? We associate that perhaps his tactics are from another age, the Stone Age by some who don't deserve him.

What do we mean by "young, progressive" managers in the Premier League? Apart from those managing with mega money, the rest have all been found wanting and sacked!!

You need experience in the Premier League and Moyes, because of this, has come up against all the tactics out there.

He also has had to fight with limited budgets, maybe now in the summer there may be a bit more room for him to bring in "his" own players.

As of March, we have won seven away games this season; only Arsenal have done better than that. As for Brighton and Brentford? Their handbrake appears to be tighter than ours.

Well, 3 of them are above us in the table...

The title is not meant to be disparaging towards Moyes, but just a look at how his time with West Ham ended and a similar situation appearing here.

Despite improvement and stability, it's not enough for large sections if the football is poor. The question I'm really asking is: Is he willing to be a bit braver to stop that unrest increasing?

Do you want the manager to go all gung ho and throw caution to the wind by going all out attack, and leaving us fragile at the back?

Sorry, but most managers don't approach games like that, let alone Moyes.

Look at most Premier League games, they're normally cat and mouse affairs, witness the Burnley - Man City game on Wednesday, everyone expecting Burnley to get rolled over by 4 or 5 quite easily, only they didn't and they also created a few chances themselves.

I'm absolutely dying to know who this mystical manager is that is all of a sudden going to let the handbrake off and let us attack teams at will. We need to temper our expectations, because, at the moment, we are just there to make the numbers up.

It's going to be a long slow arduous process to even get us away from the bottom half of the table, and Moyes has done that.

I doubt if I'll ever see us lift another trophy in my lifetime because it's becoming so difficult for anyone to do so.

One month ago, it was: "How can anyone criticise him? He's got us challenging for Champions League!"

Two weeks ago, it was: "How can anyone criticise him? He's got us challenging for Europa League!"

Since Sunday, it's been: "How can anyone criticise him? He's got a chance of Conference League football...'

Now? "How can anyone criticise him? He's got us away from the bottom half of the table."

Where does the buck stop?

Arsenal could end up suffering from a safety-first approach this season. If they just miss out, how many games will be looked back on where they could have taken a bit more risk?

Balance is key, I'd just like to see the scales shifted slightly, that's all!

I don't think he's got that in him.

It really depends on what you want from your football club. Just to be able to relax because our team is nowhere near the relegation places is good for some. For others, it's stability; for others, it's Europe; and for others, it's to obviously see our team win a trophy again.

Some don't believe that's possible; some live in hope; and some others just know it'll happen again for Everton.

I'm in the latter group, just basing it on the fanatical support I witnessed last Sunday, but it'll only happen when people start both demanding and also expecting more.

I don't want to go down the road of arguing about the curse that struck Everton Football Club on Boxing Day 1999. I'd sooner just look at the overall history of Everton because we were a club that used to compete for honours, and usually won at least one trophy in every decade of our existence.

Only when they presented their wares, the only takers were Potter, Lopetegui and Nuno. They'll be thanking their lucky stars if they're still in the Premier League in a few weeks.

I remember when I was a kid and used to like watching The Hammers because they played good football. I remember they won the FA Cup twice but, from memory, I think John Lyle's Hammers were all about stability and nothing more.

I have always thought that Everton had much bigger and better ambitions and standards, which shows you how delusional David Moyes made them when he delivered that third-rate European trophy.

Stuck with Moyes, playing football the negative way -- or stick with Moyes because, although you won't get that much entertainment, at least you will never have to worry about being relegated again.

If The Hammers stay up, who knows what Nuno can achieve with them?

It's just way too early to be urging a change in my view. We are still in a pretty fragile state. We need the squad building up, and for the fans to get used to competing at the right end of the table.

Under this logic, we'd have got rid if Howard Kendall in 1982.

It's different with David Moyes because he has already had 11 previous seasons, and this is why the title of the thread really resonated with me.

It could have been so much different if O'Brien hadn't strayed offside (I think we would have won easily if he hadn't) and my own belief is that a natural full-back would have stayed onside, although he might not have put in such a great cross.

The loss to Liverpool has swung the mood again, but you know me, Kevin, I am getting bored of top-flight football. I don't think that the supposedly best teams in the Premier League are that far ahead of the rest, like they have been in the past.

I think, if Everton would have been a bit (not a lot) more adventurous in a few of our home games, then we might have achieved something that those West Ham fans were thinking was achievable.

I don't have belief Moyes will be the manager to win us things, but I do have faith he will improve us significantly over the next couple of years. Getting us consistently to top 7. We can't run before we can walk.

There are certain managers who are built for certain jobs. Ancelotti is your best pick if you own a supertanker and wish to remain where you are. Moyes is one of the best for moving a club from 15th to 5th.

When did he do that, Kev?

This doesn't need explaining, surely.

A new beginning…….. A fantastic new ground, that needs to be the catalyst for a new beginning. But if you don't think that David Moyes is the manager to win us things, then we aren't really going to be getting that new beginning that we crave.

The pros and cons you obviously crave what I crave (deep down, I'm not having it that you aren't that bothered about winning trophies!) but you don't want to go back to the horrible dark days that we witnessed during the Kenwright and Moshiri era.

But we are a different football club now that the curse has gone, and we have just got to find the belief that we always had before the worst era in our entire history.

I think we've already had our fingers burnt in appointing good managers who were unsuited to the job at hand; the job at hand at the moment is consolidation. We still have a relatively weak squad, no full-backs, hardly any forwards...

I think the next two years should be steady progress. Not throwing out the baby with the bathwater to give another Marco Silva a go at vast expense.

Arsenal fans who want Arteta out (yes, there are quite a few of them) are concerned he will never change.

I definitely don't expect a big change in approach for the West Ham game itself. West Ham need 3 points and I'd be surprised if they don't go all out to try to attack from the off.

I'd have no problem with being the reactive team on this occasion as long as we don't fall back too far when not in possession, and I think we've generally been better in that regard recently.

Steve Walsh, getting off an aeroplane, looking important in Italy, with a big leather briefcase, the summer after we had signed three or four number tens.

Then it was the director of football, preferring to be a director, which wouldn’t have been hard when you witnessed the complete debacle, in the boardroom.

Ancellotti, might have been okay if he had got the job, when Ronald did, and then it was the most divisive manager in the club’s history, getting £1.5 million to spend?

We stayed up because of our incredibly passionate supporters, thinking about when Moyes, came fourth, what part did those same fans play then?

We don’t know what we have got, because it’s been that long since we had anything worth celebrating, but going back to the fans again, then give us a decent team, that has no fear (doesn’t mean you have to do anything stupid) and I’m convinced the fans will help get us over the line and make people begin to respect Everton football club, for the right reasons, once again.

I'd genuinely have no problem being the reactive team every single week, just as long as the players knew their jobs properly.

I'm still fuming at O'Brien getting caught offside for the first goal last week because he should have got back onside instead of being half asleep or was it lazy?

This is the difference between a well-drilled team and a team that all know their jobs properly, especially those reactive teams, who always know exactly when to punish their opponents.

Just the part when he went from 15th to 5th please.

When Moyes took over in 2002, we were in 15th place. In his first full season, we finished in 7th place. A couple of seasons after that, he got us to 4th.

I'm beginning to worry about Jake O'Brien myself.

There was the Arsenal penalty at home. The offside on Sunday... and then he was pulling Pickford's shirt when Van Dijk scored.

He's not the sharpest tool in the box, is he?

We come 4th, and with better players we slowly got progressively better, but it took a very long time. We didn't have much fun in the cups, but I suppose we went on a few jollies in Europe.

Never did we progress past the last 16 though, although this was another era of stability, with the conman waiting for his clown.

The clown arrived, we went progressively backwards but he built us a wonderful ground and if we are to capitalise on this then we don't need another era of stability….Or do we?

Any promising young players will have left because Moyes never plays them, nor gives them any reasonable game time.

Still playing the same old, tired, tactics that Moyes uses with exactly the same formation, regardless of who we are playing. But if that's progress to some, fair enough.

Personally, I would hope for a lot better than what Moyes will deliver. It will be extremely interesting to see who comes through the doors in our next transfer window. I would be amazed if there are any young players. It will be the Premier League ready, reliable pro types that Moyes loves.

Mid-table security is the height of Moyes ambitions.

I'm still fuming at O'Brien getting caught offside for the first goal last week because he should have got back onside instead of being half asleep or was it lazy?

Following an Everton attack, the ball had been cleared all the way back to Pickford, and our lot were ambling back, with not just Jake O'Brien but five other players all caught offside when he played the ball upfield.

Jake was the unlucky one on the end of it but they were all guilty of not being a well-drilled team... one thing Moyes is supposed to be known for.

Thats a terrible stretch mate.

Pickford had a radius of about 20 square yards; O'Brien, who was the obvious pass, just ambled out wide instead of getting himself back onside before breaking forward, in behind the Liverpool defence.

When Si mentioned 'reactive', my first thought was that a very well-drilled team also knows how and when to be pro-active. I could imagine a manager like Simeone taking a player off for wasting such a great opportunity, which is what I still think Jake O'Brien did last Sunday.

We will never know if it cost us the game but he definitely wasted a massive opportunity by being lazy or by not being completely switched on. Casting my mind back to the thousands of Evertonians who were going completely berserk, my own opinion was that this was a real game changer, especially with Liverpool scoring only a few minutes later.

Attack as a team, defend as a team... but only teams that are really switched on know how to do both of these things properly.

He has switched off a few times, another was the goal that Wolves scored (I think). The biggest problem I have watching Everton, playing with O'Brien at fullback, is that he often stays back, and he sometimes stays narrow, and this means that whoever plays in front of him has to do an incredible amount of running.

This seems to be your natural modus operandi whenever you sniff something you don't -- usually unreasonably, unfairly, and wrongly -- like.

As for 'disparaging': if that title is in any shape or form 'disparaging', which it is not, then 7/10 of the stuff on here is 'red shite troll' 'disparaging'.

Grow up, lad.

O'Brien also switched off with the red card against Bournemouth. He had view of the pass, and though he didn't know where the runner behind was, he could have played the ball. Instead, he hesitated and took the wrong angle which caused the bad tackle.

It seems like Moyes has gone with selections that limit his ability to take the handbrake off. Tarkowski can't cover O'Brien to the inside, causing Jake to perhaps try to contain rather than take the chance to lay out and play the ball. Likely, that risk also keeps Jake from making runs and playing wider.

Those types of vulnerabilities are built into our squad, perhaps not Moyes's fault. But Moyes seems to accept that as a constraint to how we play. That is what frustrates me.

Were he to integrate Aznou, Alcaraz or Rohl into some rotation, the subs could serve to open play up in some of our rigid positional partnerships. I think we have seen enough of Rohl and Alcaraz to know there are players there. Why we have not seen enough of Aznou? Dave only knows.

I think Moyes accepts the limitations of a smaller squad usage and players out of natural position to ensure solid defence. The handbrake is thus built into the Moyes machine. Moyes has played himself into this repeated occurrence of getting to the precipice.

Konate very nearly played Jake onside as he was slow to respond but Van Dijk kept at him.

What on earth does this mean: Pickford had a radius of about 20 square yards??? That doesn't even make any sense on any level.

It didn't matter about the other four, Michael, because at the end of the day, the most important person is the player that is going to be receiving the ball.

With all due respect, that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the situation developed, if you don't mind me saying, Tony. At the instant before Pickford launches his punt, only he knows who it's going to. The receiving player doesn't know... unless he's telepathic.

WIth such a possible ball over the top, it becomes the responsibility of every single player in Blue to make sure they were not offside, but instead, they all each and every one of them, ambled back slowly behind the advancing Red Shite back line, and were all offside.

That becomes important because, the way this horrible offside law is now applied, if O'Brien had been onside, but had then played the ball to any other player who had been offside, they would have ruled the goal out.

To single out and criticise Jake O'Brien in the way you have seems unreasonable to me.

A friend sent me this its from Barrys instagram account he says " Be patient everything is falling into place, absolutely everything"

No idea what he is talking about, just hope his agent is talking to clubs who will take him off our hands.

The only person who has to stay onside, is the person who is receiving the pass - that’s correct isn’t it?

It doesn’t matter if the other five players are offside just as long as the player who receives the ball is onside - that’s also correct isn’t it.

The obvious pass is the long diagonal pass into the huge space on the flank (which was at least 20 square yards)

When I was inside the stadium Michael, my dad who was sitting next to me cursed the ball getting knocked back to Pickford. I said no that’s okay, it takes about three seconds nowadays to put the ball back up the other end.

Next thing it’s been knocked into the space by Pickford, where I was anticipating/hoping he would put the long diagonal, which was definitely, imo, the most natural and safest pass.

I didn’t realise it was Branthwaite, and not KDH who was closest to the ball, and I genuinely assumed that O’Brien, had told him to leave it because he was offside, and for the next twenty minutes, I was moaning, saying I’d like to see a full picture of the VAR decision and not just the usual lines, because I just didn’t believe that Jake O’Brien, was offside.

When I saw a full screen showing everything, my initial thought was that O’Brien, had badly let us down but how could the manager blame him because he his simply not a natural right back, but a central defender, he prefers to play over the two natural right backs in the squad.

I genuinely wasn’t aware that if O’Brien, had stayed onside, then taken the ball forward before crossing it to a player who had been offside, that the goal would have still been ruled offside Michael, so if that’s now the case, I definitely owe him an apology, and everything else that I’ve written shows that I haven’t got a fuckn clue about the offside law now.

My own view is that if Jake O’Brien, hadn’t strayed offside then the goal would have definitely stood.

I didn’t realise that if Beto would have connected with the header, it would have been disallowed, because I thought that once another player had touched the ball, everyone was live again.

I’m sure I’ve seen goals given that contradict that law, but maybe I’m wrong, especially with my view that depending on the team, sometimes they make it up as they go along.

Thanks for putting me right pro-actively Michael! (Not backward in coming forward)

Dale@37, I agree with a lot of what you wrote in that post mate. Maybe Moyes thinks It’s better not playing a natural right back because when fullbacks go forward naturally, sometimes they leave a lot of space in behind (in the area’s that I think O’Brien should have exploited better) and because we lack pace in the centre of our defence, maybe the manager feels it suits us.

Good point Mark, but I’m still blaming Jake O’Brien, even after my apologies!

If our ambitions for Europe are serious, we need to win this game comfortably.

He is just so risk-averse, he can't bring himself to try something different to get a result.

Any team can beat any other team in this league, especially this year and form matters. Ours is patchy at best in fact we've only won 1 from our last 4 and their form is better than ours over the last 4 games.

I feel as though our season is sliding at the moment and wouldn't be at all surprised to see us end up about 10th/12th.

If we do lose today, the silver lining is that it will help relegate Spurs.

Sounds a bit stupid saying that after Michael has explained the rule change but it was a goal if O'Brien hadn't strayed offside

One of the first things you learn when you play out wide, both defensively and in attack, is to look along the fucking line!