ToffeeHouse Chatroom — International Break

Has anyone seen any reports on this 'New Deal for Football', that looks like it's going to be implemented soon, after being agreed by the 20 Premier League clubs?

I have only seen a little piece, but because it's been put in place to protect a lot of football clubs, it does seem to have a lot of contradictions, although I suppose we shouldn't except anything less really?

In other news, it also being reported that if Anthony Gordon, signs a new contract, it will have a release clause, if a club is prepared to pay X-amount of money.

It's been reported that Usmanov's offices have been raided in Germany today, so I just hope this doesn't affect the stadium, or Farhad Moshiri in any way.

So the main thing to come out of the strategic review, is that a lot of the Kenwright old boy regime seem to have slowly left our club?

Tony,

There are still a few: Jose Baxter, Keith Southern, Baines, Scott Phelan but the higher profile ones have gone.

Tony. But the OJ Simpson of the Main Stand is still standing.

Tony,

I saw that they found a brown paper bag with a note from an English entrepreneur saying "Please hide this for me. Arteta Money".

Not sure what it could be...

But more seriously from Reuters:

"The prosecutor general's office in Frankfurt said the raids had targeted a Russian businessman suspected of having used his "extensive and complex network of companies and corporations" to disguise the origins of several transactions between 2017 and 2022."

Complex financial transactions involving a complex network of companies and corporations in 2017? I remember this fairly complex deal which seemed to defy financial sense in 2017.

"Usmanov's USM Holdings company began a five-year sponsorship of Everton's training ground worth about 㾸m a year in 2017 and paid 㿊m for a first naming rights option on the club's new stadium. MegaFon, where Usmanov is the majority shareholder, and the Russian smartphone company Yota, which is part of the MegaFon group, sponsor Everton Women. Moshiri also has a shareholding in USM and MegaFon."

He even gets the benefit of the doubt from some people because he never appointed Allardyce or Benitez, Brian, proving it hasn't all been bad with regards to old Hyman and his good times.

Ring-fenced money for the King's Dock, wasting a lot of time and money on Destination Kirkby, only to say he was glad, once that move failed, and now doing his best to convince Moshiri to stay on.

Although I think it will be very worrying news for Farhad after today's events in Germany regarding his boss. Hopefully it doesn't affect Bill Kenwright's perceived legacy.

Kieran,

I mean we all know Moshiri and Usmanov are up to their necks in dodginess. Half the league owners are too though, mate.

Maybe that's why it was Moshiri who bought Everton and not Usmanov, because Moshiri hasn't been sanctioned... yet!
Maybe they knew this would all catch up with Usmanov, Abramavic etc and they know Moshiri is the straight man.

Let's just hope all the authorities can leave him till he's built our stadium.

Hopefully the screams are not heard down by Bramley-Moore Dock, Kieran.

Anyone see G Neville's comment that American owners are a greater threat to English football than nation-states?

Boehly is not impressing but this seemed over the top and a bit narrow-minded about larger issues where football can become a buffer against legitimate concerns.

Moshiri is nothing more than the Uzbeki gangster's puppet, funny how we are quite prepared to put up with the most despicable characters as long as they spend their ill-gotten gains on our club.

I am sure Sir John Moores must be turning in his grave to see the likes of Usmanov and his puppet running Everton Football Club. The Premier League is full of a cesspit load of owners and the fans don't care, everybody knows that Everton was just a money laundering exercise for the Uzbeki gangster and his so-called accountant puppet.

Newcastle quite happy to have owners who regularly behead innocent people never mind dismembering the body of a US journalist. Also, we are quite happy to watch a World Cup which has been built on the deaths of migrant workers.

Since Qatar was awarded the World Cup in 2010, over 6,500 migrant workers have died in that country, I've just read, with 37 directly coming from working on the stadiums.

Brian,

I'm sure we would all love some Bob Geldorf saint-like figure to buy our club.

But the people who can afford these clubs are usually ruthless business types who've trodden on everyone on their paths to becoming billionaires.

This is the world we live in. This is the world Everton operates in.

I am very concerned for Patterson if this is a medial ligament injury.

Years ago, I was kicked on my knee, badly damaging the medial ligament. Felt like broken glass in the knee. And that was the end of my active sporting life.

Wishing you all the best, son.

The bobble has just tweeted Calvert-Lewin is being assessed for a minor groin strain not thought to be long term or serious.

Bernie # 47. Sorry to hear about your injury, and hope you recovered sufficiently enough, although unfortunately not enough to carry on with your sporting activities. Can I ask you one thing though, Bernie, and this is in no way a dig at you Bernie and anybody else who informs us of injuries they have sustained in the past, but following your injury, where you within hours having any required surgery, followed by days of recuperation, the best possible physiotherapy, often every day, then light work in the gym to build up any muscle loss, then light training to build up your overall fitness, or like most, including myself, did you go home and throw a bag of frozen peas on your knee in the hope it would aid your recovery quicker? I sustained a few serious injuries when I was playing, (but luckily enough no broken limbs), and was fortunate enough to be in a physio scheme provided through work, but even then I might only go once or twice a week. I was still having to go to work etc. so even though plenty of us have suffered injuries in the past, don't forget, these lads nowadays are receiving the best possible treatment and often are back playing a lot quicker than players from years gone by.

Calvert-Lewin also suffers an injury... Groin

Poor DCL. Maybe he needs to be put to sleep.

How did Calvert-Lewin get injured? I thought it was only announced days ago he was being rested to give him a longer period to recover?

Going to have to ask though more clued up than me on these matters, but after the Usmanov raids, and depending what is found, is it the individuals that are culpable or the organisation? In other words Everton? If so, would Arsenal be in the mix?

Genuine question.

Tony @1,

It seems the main carrier of the 'New Deal for Football' story is The Times, which is behind a paywall.

A number of others appear to have cherry-picked bits and bobs from the original story:

Dropping replays in some early rounds of the FA Cup
European competitors playing Under-21 teams in the League Cup
Salary cap as a percentage of turnover, reducing progressively over a few years
Drastic reduction in the parachute payments
Different money pass-downs to the Football League.

My sense is that these are proposals being discussed by the clubs at one or more meetings, and that things are still to be decided upon.

Something about this also being the way that football will fix itself now after the fan-led review, with Liz Truss backing off the plans to impose a Football Regulator on the sport.

Danny

He's been training for a few weeks just not involved in the group sessions. Presumably he pulled it doing his running or something?

Colin

Thinking about DCLs build, style of play and position, he's starting to seem a bit like Andy Carroll. Too much wear and tear with all the jumping etc?

David (9), could be wrong but I thought it was Usmanov's involvement at Arsenal that ruled him out as actually owning EFC?

It will be interesting to see what comes out of those discussions, Michael.

I'll pick up on those in Europe playing their U21s in the League Cup. There is already a precedent with the EFL Trophy. League 1 and 2 clubs joined by a number of U21 sides from the Premier League and Championship. Interesting results this week:

Peterborough 3 Tottenham U21s 0
Ipswich 2 Arsenal U21s 0
Rochdale 1 Liverpool U21s 0
Barnsley 2 Newcastle U21s 0

It may level the playing ground and see someone other than the usual suspects win a trophy. So a good initiative in my mind.

But when you look at those results, it demonstrates that "playing the kids" isn't always the way. Yes a snapshot, a point in time. But it reinforces the simple fact that you need the blend of experience alongside potential. Not too much of one or the other.

We're seeing that now in the team and squad Lampard and his staff are building.

Moderator's note: Comments from the Patterson thread about serious injuries and concerns over the quality of TW discourse that were moved to this page begin here:

Broken both ankles. They weren't too bad to come back from. I didn't even realise one of them until I got told after the X-Ray.

Broken both legs. One of them took a while. To Rob's point, I had a skinny left thigh for years due to muscle loss whilst in plaster.

Done my ankle ligaments. That was tricky. Steady state running after several weeks but couldn't attempt the movement on a football pitch. I was fortunate enough to have access to a Cypriot club's physio. Yes, not the heights but it was better than the Army's tuba grip and pain killer option!!
What I can only describe as gel treatment and electric shocks to my ankle speeded up the recovery no end.

The hardest one I found to recover from was tearing my quad. I just kept breaking down every time it felt okay.

These players have the best medical care and will be in recovery every day. What used to be season- or even career-ending injuries are now overcome both more quickly and just overcome.

He'll be back before we know it.

Danny @26,

Not to disparage your injuries but, all of a sudden, I thought I'd heard Eric Idle there – 2 broken ankles, broken legs... “it's only a flesh wound.”

If you love the game, you keep playing, there really is no option. I'm sure we've all gone against doctors' advice and like what's been said, the pros get well looked after.

Myself, in my teens, my kneecap would dislocate on the pitch after a tackle and me Dad would slide it back in, to the shock of a few. I'd be okay after a few minutes of walking, I'd be good for about a month til it'd happen again. Lucky to have a good specialist who put in a screw and I never had to worry about it again.

The other major one was a snapped Achilles when I was in my early 40s – that was a tough one.

Ahhh, ole war wounds and uncle Arthritis loves all those old rolled, sprained ankles, separated shoulders, cracked ribs etc, but the fun, the memories. I wouldn't change it for anything, lol.

I think I can top you, Danny.

I played two seasons while in treatment for stage 4 cancer. Sometimes could play for only 10 minutes at a time (sub out, sub in), and once had to go behind the goal and puke, but I never missed a game.

Mike,

You've got some balls mate. I called it a day after metatarsal.

Rob,

Thanks for your kind thoughts, Rob, but it happened 41 years ago and not on the sports field. I was in the Police and it was at a protest march. I had first-class medical treatment, in and out of hospital but, after 12 months, I had to have a total knee replacement.

Hopefully I was the exception rather than the rule, so my fervent hope is that Nathan makes a full recovery.

Ah, so Patterson's injury has now created a thread for the usual suspects to brag about their own injuries. Well if you can't beat them, join them!

I'm also in the ‘accident prone' category: broken wrist, ribs, torn ligaments etc, but they were all like a day at Alton Towers compared to breaking my spine in 3 places. I managed to recover and play footy for several years after, but can't claim to be as tough as Bert Trautmann!!

Genuine and total respect, Mike.

Kieran, I probably should have pointed out that they didn't all happen at the same time!! All in my late teens and early twenties. I avoided anything serious after that.

Fingers and toes crossed for positive news on Patterson.

Duncan, geez... you didn't do that on the pitch, did you? That would have had to be one hellof a foul. I read about Trautmann when I was a kid... do you know the name of that film?

Bernie, highest respects... sorry you were injured on the job.

Mike, When Bert had his neck broken, when challenged by a Bolton (think it was their centre-forwad) I think it was on the Telly... I'll check it. and really well done mate, carrying on with having to carry that round as well.

Finally, not sure where to put this info but on YouTube I was looking this morning at a couple clips of EFC in the 1961-62 and 62-63 season, showing Everton v Wolves and Everton v Burnley, the lad goes under the name the heavyroller, got loads of footy but haven't been through em all yet. One shows the great god Alex dancing (literally) on ice!

No it wasn't from football, Mike, as usual it was a result of me being a dickhead!

Danny, I'll look up that film, must be interesting what with his Hitler Youth / POW background, then the football career c/w neck break!

All this injury talk has made me think of a new Top Trumps theme… Everton could be Champions League Winners, especially if we re-sign Darron Gibson.

Duncan, Mike, it's simply called The Keeper.

Danny @70,

You're made of glass, mate! What an injury list. Fair play for "soldiering-on".

Mike, you must be one determined mofo!

Hope our lad is back sooner rather than later.

Re Trautmann:

I think you will find that it was Nat Lofthouse who broke Bert's neck.

Bert was a German paratrooper and I think he was captured in Crete, but may be wrong there. He was in a POW Camp in or near Manchester, and he used to 'escape' for every Man City home game!

Duncan, It was one of the first cup finals I saw, and I don't think we had our own telly then! Playing on with a broken neck, saying "I thought it felt a bit sore."

He became a real popular man, I didn't know he played for St Helens Town before Man City got him. Just read that bit about him. I knew he married an English girl, but didn't know he volunteered to work with bomb disposal in Liverpool after the war.

As for young Patterson, what a piece of hard luck for him after not only breaking into the team but making right-back his own spot so quickly. Not heard 'owt yet about how serious the injury is, or any projected recovery date. Hope he'll have a real speedy recovery, he's young and fit, so let's hope he can get back in the team asap.

Thankfully, Seamus is back and we've got a little time for him to get back in the swing again.

Danny “Sicknote” O'Neill…………say no more! 😂😂😂

Eddie, Rob, I know. Even though I was fortunate enough to grace Bellefield, Everton missed a trick. I'd have been an ideal fit!

Re. the cataloguing of injuries on here, I've had papercuts I've never fully recovered from.

Tony #99.

I feel for you, mate. They are nasty and painful injuries.

I was walking the dog in the park a few months back, doing the usual, kicking a tennis ball for him to fetch. One of my final kicks as I headed towards the gate, and I felt, and heard, my calf ping. What would normally be a 5-minute walk home took about 20 minutes. I was in agony!

I got home, done the usual, you know, an ice pack wrapped in a towel. After a few days, I was right as rain and able to carry on my dog-walking career!!

Bernie @ 92.

Manchester City have never played Bolton in an FA Cup Final. Trautmann broke his neck in 1956 against Birmingham City.

He was a POW in Ashton in Makerfield and played for St Helens Town after the war.

Mike 84

I remember watching the game it was the 1956 Cup Final between Man City and Birmingham City, Both teams changed from their normal colours as both wore blue, so City played in a striped shirt and Birmingham in white shirts.

It was quite a normal challenge, the ball was played low into the box and Trautmann went down at the forward's feet and the forward's knee caught Trautmann's neck. He played the last 17 minutes with a broken neck.

Bernie @38,

"I think you will find that it was Nat Lofthouse who broke Bert's neck."

I think you will find that might not actually be true.

I've just googled the Birmingham player involved in the Bert Trautmann injury, and apparently it was a player called Peter Murphy.

There's a great book on Trautmann: Trautmann's Journey by Catrine Clay. Well worth a read.

Michael @46,

Just to confirm that Nat Lofthouse didn't injure Bert Trautmann but he did score in the 1958 Cup Final for Bolton v Man Utd where he barges into the back of Harry Gregg who had the ball in his arms. Even in those days, I can't understand how it was allowed to stand.

Ironically there was a tenuous Everton connection as it came from a shot from Dennis Stevens who later joined Everton. Gregg parried the ball into the air then caught it as it came down only for Lofthouse to barge him into the net.

Brian @49,

I remember hearing about that one, before the rules became more protective of goalkeepers.

Sounds a bit similar to Andy Gray's controversial goal in the 1984 FA Cup Final against Watford, although I don't think Sherwood was barged into the net.

And Dennis Stevens would have been playing against his cousin except for the tragedy earlier in the year.

I read Bert Trautmann's autobiography “Steppes to Wembley” many years ago, it's excellent.

Rob #43,

Thanks for that. TW continues its role as collective group therapy. The cut was right where once of my guitar-playing fingers didn't need it to be.

Les @44,

It is claimed that before his internment in Ashton in Makerfield, Bert Trautmann was a POW on Merseyside - some say at Fort Crosby (the remains are still there) others suggest it was at the POW camp in Huyton. If he'd stayed, he might have given Ted Sagar a run for his money.

For those interested in Bert Trautman, there is a film called “ The Keeper “.

Mike #54

He seems to have been moved around a lot, including Fort Crosby, Ashton-in-M and Huyton

When Bert Trautmann played for St Helens Town he was in the PoW camp in Huyton. They'd spotted him playing against local pub sides.

The PoWs were formed into bomb disposal squads and put to work around Liverpool. I don't think it was exactly voluntary!

When the Huyton camp was closed in the late 1940s many of the PoWs settled in the local area, particularly those from what had become the Soviet Sector. I worked with one from Torgau, in the 1970s.

Apparently, when Trautmann was playing for St. Helens quite a few clubs had scouted him but City was the only club with the bottle to sign a former German paratrooper. In the immediate post war era, the anti German feelings were so strong that thousands demonstrated against the signing, outside Maine Road.

If ToffeeWeb had been around then I can just imagine the outcry if we'd have signed him!

Bill, That's what the article said, he did a job in bomb disposal after the war. Although that could be wrong.

Jim #124

Apparently he did when he was in Huyton but I think they all had to. I have his autobiography somewhere but just can't put my hand on it.

He played for City in my first away match in 1959. I think we were bottom of the table (what's new?) but as far as I can recall we won 1-3.

Any baldies amongst us may be interested in the club's latest commercial partner………..

https://www.evertonfc.com/news/2799091/everton-adds-vera-clinic-as-latest-commercial-partner

Regarding hefty unfair challenges, Peter McParland wiped Ray Wood out in the 1959 final forcing Danny Blanchard to go in goal.

I was serving in Cyprus for the 1957,1958, and 1959 finals, I saw the incidents after I was demobbed in July 1959.

Danny #36, I will find it. Thanks!

Brian #45, yes, I've seen the old black-and-white video of the incident and some still images.

Peter #48, thank you, great tip, I actually found it on Amazon and just ordered it.

John, forgive me. Was it not Jackie rather than Danny Blanchflower?

I didn't know what to make of the "Hair Transplant Turkey" subtitle when I first read that.

Maybe the partnership has been helped due to our links with Rooney?

Or have I missed something and their market research has discovered an unusually high percentage of Everton fans have lost their hair?

Well that isn't through natural causes. It's through physically tearing it out over the years.

Alan @62:

"The final was marred by a collision after only 6 minutes between Aston Villa forward Peter McParland and Manchester United goalkeeper Ray Wood, which left Wood unconscious with a broken cheekbone. Wood left the pitch and Jackie Blanchflower took over in goal for United. Wood eventually rejoined the game in an outfield position as a virtual passenger before returning to goal for the last 7 minutes of the game."

The game in question was the 1957 FA Cup Final.

Danny. Don't know about loss of hair on top but we have had the rug pulled under us for over two decades.

Hi Alan, [62] it was indeed Jackie Blanchflower, I stand corrected, a malfunction of my feeble mind.

Michael Kenwright [64], Alan [62] doesn't need to tell me, you have done so already. I will not get annoyed with you, I will put your remarks down to your apparent dislike of me, and I can ensure you that your feelings are reciprocated.

Alan (#62), yes it was Jackie Blanchflower, just to be awkward, his brother's name was Robert Dennis Blanchflower.

He was nicknamed “Danny” by some reporter or other who thought he looked a lot like Danny Kaye, the famous singer and actor, never saw the resemblance myself.

Michael Kenrick [64],

I didn't change your name deliberately, it was a genuine mistake. It would appear that there is another person with a similar name, who is also disliked by a number of people.

Don't post on TW anymore - - too much "neggo waves" for me - - do my own thing on TDH - - read with disgust, again, MK's comments regarding JMcF - - and his jibe of OAP - - me I am 73 - - like John - sharp bright intelligent and friendly - - I could think of several initials that represent the likes of you MK - - what a shit you really are.

In the '70s, I had a natter with Jackie Blanchflower for five minutes or so. He was a perfect gent, weighty by then and severely impacted in his movement.

I asked him what part football had played in causing his injuries and he gave me a weathered look, saying "Quite a lot laddie (I was mid-20s), especially those from Munich."

He had of course been on that plane but it had slipped my mind, me not being a Man Utd fan.

Then he smiled and said, "Don't worry about it, nobody remembers survivors."

John McFarlane @68,

Thanks for clarifying. I thought it was out of character for someone who doesn't swear to use the word "K**wright" in describing a fellow fan.

Hi George [69],

I hope you are in good health. I was thinking of you at the recent get-together. I think you may be 25% right in your assessment of me. I try to be friendly but the sharp, bright, and intelligent part is debatable.

I suppose that it can be put down to my OAP status, it's unfortunate that some people don't reach that milestone in their lives, so I try to make the most of it, even though it appears to be frowned on by some people.

John #72, from my perspective OAP is a more exalted title than HRH or GCVO!

Bill #58,

My wife comes from St Helens and next door to where she lived was a German chap who'd married a Sintellins girl, he was an ex-prisoner of war and he knew Bert Trautmann.

John #72 - I'm also chronologically gifted, and becoming more gifted as the years pass. Though not as gifted as your good self.

Yankin' here...is that like a TW OBE or something?

Might I suggest to my fellow OAP's that we contend it to mean "Outstanding Agent Provocateur" in our usage of TW?

Well it certainly gets a response from some after all, but wait!

The name "Kenrick" allegedly derives from a term historically meaning "Chief Hero"!........ but only slightly more so than does "Kenwright".

What a mix! So we're blessed to have TWO chief heroes!

What a website!!

Rather disconcerting that two of the nicest fellows I have actually met through TW, are seriously thinking of calling it a day. I don't post as often as I used to, and having been a member for quite a long time, I have noticed a decline.

Friendly banter is one thing, and I always try to lighten any situation myself with a bit of a 'funny', though many may not see the intended humour, I do try.

I have noticed that certain individuals who claim to be 'Evertonians' calling out other Blues with some derogatory terms, just because they have a differing opinion. I don't remember this ever being the case before.

I know some TW'ers have had bans opposed because the Editors have deemed them to have crossed the Rubicon, but after a month of isolation on the other side have been allowed back.

I just hope that some Sense and Sensibility can return, otherwise I will have to reconsider my own position with regards to TW.

I love reading on ToffeeWeb, I like adding some comments, always a good place to come for knowledge all things Everton.

Lately though, I just do not know what has happened, lack of respect for the older generation, some toxic, a lot of regular posters no longer posting.

Can we just get ToffeeWeb back to how it used to be, respect for each other, good bit of friendly banter, agree to differ at times, but please give me the old ToffeeWeb back, and hopefully some of the redundant posters coming back would be great.

That's my thoughts anyway, not sure if any other posters feel the same.

Derek, the only fault with this site is the censorship that MK applies. This isn't moderation because the rules are made up on the trot, it is purely censorship based on MK's opinions. Adult posters are treated like children and this is unacceptable. Bannings are disgraceful but bannings without warning are unacceptable.

STOP IMPERSONATING THE CHAIRMAN, DON!

George, great to see you back and keep coming back.

I was pleased to meet you in the Dark House and hope to again soon.

I'll be honest, I know some are getting fed up, but I've never laughed as much at some of the comments on here these past days as I have on this site in a long time.

I think we're all getting Everton withdrawal symptoms and fretting. Come 1 October, we'll all be fine as the thing that unites us will be back.

Keep posting all.

Brian, just get fu... :-)

You're right, I agree. Whilst TW is relatively tame compared with some, it's less so compared with itself of the past.

I don't take offence, it's words on a screen from often unknown people, so I see it in that context. Going on the Live Forum and then complaining about it gets old.

The site itself though is a different thing. Heated debate is fine but some of the arguing and whining is boring really. It always seems worse when there's no football, like now. Damned breaks! Sadly it does discourage some good posters, and maybe new people.

Danny, best way, just laugh at it.

Quite right, Danny. It's a laugh a minute at times.

Don A, not to be confused with Don Corleone, wasn't Danny married to one of the Beverley Sisters?

Not Danny O'Neill by the way, I mean Danny Blanchflower. :-)

I think that was Billy Wright from Wolves, Del.

I remember Howard Kendall dropping Billy Wright, because he was too fat

This was a couple of years before the good times finally arrived for us persecuted Evertonians, who had been to hell and back watching overweight footballers!

Derek. I thought our Mike Trebilcock was a big favourite with the Beverley Sisters…

(Sorry, old JJoe Royle joke!)

Ray, yes quite Wright there! How did I get so confused?

Mike must have had one hell of a problem after a few beers, in getting all three into urination mode! :-)

Tony (153),

Yes, that was after a 0-0 draw at Goodison Park versus Coventry City, I think, a game in which the players were booed off the pitch after an abysmal performance and Kendall came onto the field at the end of the game and shook hands with every Everton player, as an act of defiance.

Billy Wright never played for the club again and was sold not long after that game.

ToffeeWeb is mellow these days. In the early days it was ferocious, challenging and brilliant. One could sit down with some popcorn and enjoy a combative 300-comment thread. People disappeared and it wasn't clear if they had been banned or buried in concrete!

John Mac, you know how much I respect you, so I think I can say that I really think MK enjoys joshing you a bit. Also you can give it back pretty well!!

Sorry I didn't make the get together. Couldn't get a flight in the end. Hope to get over before Christmas, fingers crossed and we can catch up again. Keep posting!!

Anyone looking for a bit of positivity, nostalgia even, although it only happened 4 months ago, should read Richarlison talking about Everton's run in, towards the end of last season, and how he played through injury, out of gratitude and love for Everton.

We lost arguably our great captain, the last of the Corinthians. Looks like we are losing the last of the great ToffeeWebers. Hang in there, George and John Mc. I try not to get personal to fellow blues, we all want the same. Real good times.

Got to agree with a few posters in this thread regarding the toxicity of ToffeeWeb at times like this (specifically, international breaks mid-season, but also during close-season).

Do we need a game that Everton are involved in to lance these boils all the time now? It seems that without this release, some contributors turn on each other and start treating others with minimal respect bordering on downright hostility.

A couple of years ago, spats would break out among 2 individuals, so when you got bored reading their diatribes it was easy to skip their comments and find something interesting to consider.

These days, this sort of thing seems to creep into every 3rd or 4th contribution, and it's obvious across a number of different articles that these vendettas are being taken out on individuals as opposed to the comments they make.

It's getting boring and unpleasant. ToffeeWeb has been my home page for many years now. A place where fellow blues could come to discuss football matters in a friendly environment with constructive debate. When did thus turn into a shit version of the Hunger Games?

Andy @92,

Agree on all points.

Beware sanctimonious, majoritarian oppressiveness.

And polysyllabism.

Danny #82,

George (who I knew before TW) and John McF are both lovely people (and sharp as pins) and I've often wondered if MK's frequent asides about OAPs in response to John are in jest or serious. Unfortunately, it appears it may be the latter. If so it's totally uncalled for.

The recent monarchy posts really brought out the differing political opinions on this site not least in the debate between us both.

However, I wouldn't dream of slagging someone off or making personal remarks because they didn't agree with my view. (If the coach gets into Southampton early enough I'd love to meet up for a quick pre-match drink.)

If someone has to resort to personal comments then it's a sure sign they've lost the argument. So, thank you, Bernie Quinn.

See you there Bill. Amongst others I've met at the match through being acquainted on here.

I'm still working out the logistics due to the strikes, but I'll get there.

Getting back might be another matter, but thats not important!!

Tony, I didn't get where I am today by bewaring sanctimonious, majoritarian oppressors, or polysyllabism!

Don, why can't people just be monosyllabic?

HI Andy [92] I thank you for your respect but I think you have got it wrong when you say, "Michael Kenrick enjoys joshing you a bit". I think that the only word you've got right was 'enjoys'.

His posts for a number of years, have been anything but jocular, sometimes quite offensive, and while I have tolerated his cheap remarks for a considerable time, I find it time to react. There is a way to address people, especially those who are only a name to you, I was brought up with the 'Manners make'th the man' attitude, and it's served me well.

I hope you can get over for a visit in the near future, it will be great to renew our friendship.

John McFarlane Snr.

Not sure, but I think you are a couple of months older than me (I'm September 1938), but I have to say that I admire your posts and agree with your comments. I too have had my run-ins with censorship (MK) and don't really see the point of posting any more.

Too much negativity on TW especially against Royalty. Politics etc - which caused me to reply, though I didn't really want to. But I do enjoy your posts, John, and hope you carry the flag for us old 'uns for a long time to come.

Bernie,

Don't be a quitter. Luckily the royal debate seems to have ended. We need your input and John's and George's.

As in "fuck off Bill!" Brent?

I wish!

Why isn't there a single syllable word for monosyllabic?

Bill - my apologies Bill for offending you. I respect your beliefs - just didn't see the need for you to keep repeating them. You were clear enough the first time you posted them.

Len #74.

Quite a few settled in the Huyton/St Helens area. I knew one who lived in a house in the road at the back of the shops at the Chain Lane/Blackbrook Road junction.

On one of the Huyton local history Facebook pages a boy who grew up on the PoW camp has posted camp photos. Fascinating stuff!

Just reading through this thread, thanks for explaining a bit about this new deal for football, Michael. Now I'm reading about Elite Sports Venture, trying to help Everton, find a sponsor for our new ground, and their connections to Leeds United?

Will

What's the opposite of onomatopoeia?

Kieran @ 105 - I am not a quitter Kieran as you put it. I just don't see the point of all this bickering on TW - and the snide comments from MK about OAP and 'boring' etc. Life is too short to be nasty to each other and I admire John Mc. for putting up with it for so long.

I will continue to post if I feel I should - (* Bill Watson, I've apologised to you on the Patterson thread) I just wish people were more pleasant in their posts.

Hi Bernie [104] yes Bernie, I am slightly older than you, I was born on 15 July 1938, but two months doesn't make that much difference, it appears that some think that we should be thrown onto the scrap heap. Regarding posting, I probably will continue to do so, as long I'm allowed to.

I believe that you served in Cyprus probably in the same period as myself, I was based in a R.E,M.E camp just outside of Limassol from 1957 to 1959. We sailed from Liverpool on the Devonshire and it took 11 days to reach the island, the return journey was on the Dunera [I hope that's the correct way to spell it] landing in Southampton.

Kieran, I don't know but I bet there's no sound like it.

Brent, that's it! Best I can do is, silence.

John @ 113 - Hi John -You may be 2 months older but you are certainly more alert and sharper than me! I admire your comments re censorship and MK - I know what you're talking about!

I was in Cyprus in 1958, we were stationed in Kermia - just outside Nicosia. We flew to Cyprus in a DC3 - my first flight and we had to stay overnight jn Malta. Returned to the UK in a Beverly, landing at Tripoli and Orange. I'm surprised I can remember that!

Hope you keep those posts going to TW, John, I watch out for them.

Will, if a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody around...?

John @66 & @68,

You seem to have stumbled on something that I'd never given much thought to but would have automatically denied… however, it does indeed appear (shock, horror) that the Welsh origin of both surnames Kenwright and Kenrick are essentially one and the same! (see SurnameDB.com).

This horrifying revelation has knocked me back a peg or two, I don't mind admitting. It will take a substantial mind and personality shift to live up to these lofty characteristics that I found on a different website under "What does Kenwright mean?"

"A very spiritual person who often relies on intuition for decision making.

"Your mind is rich and deep, but often closed for other people. You sometimes need seclusion in order to gain clarity about what is going on in your life."

On second thoughts, I might make the case for Kenwright being a portmanteau of Kenn and Wright, which seems much more likely: two entirely separate surnames of English origin, one having a lot more to do with dogs rather than chieftains or heroes. Phew!

And rest assured, Martin @80 that, if there was a scintilla of truth in what you claim, then I don't think your posts would be seeing the light of day, for starters.

Brent, there is never any sound, anywhere. Only vibrated air or other material. All sound exists in brains.

Hi again Bernie [104] getting the wrong number to respond to your post, will no doubt give some the impression that I'm losing my marbles, it's at times like this that I can play my ace card of, "It's an ag thing"

I hear what you say, Will.

Nothing exists except in its relationship with something else.

Bernie

One thing I've noticed in life is that every year there are newly ordained OAPs. It can't be a bad group to belong because as far as I'm aware most people aspire to reach that milestone and many more beyond it.

When I first came on ToffeeWeb, I was a mere 20-something now I'm officially middle-aged so like everyone else on here I'm blazing the same trail.

ps: I didn't mean “quitter” to be disparaging. I like to read your posts so hope many more are forthcoming

ToffeeWeb is mellow these days. In the early days it was ferocious, challenging and brilliant. One could sit down with some popcorn and enjoy a combative 300-comment thread. People disappeared and it wasn't clear if they had been banned or buried in concrete!

‐------------------

Fairly accurate summation Andy.

That's sort of it, Brent.

And you are reading TW now, in total, permanent darkness. Only the mentally constructed picture of the reflected electromagnetic radiation provides the "Light" for you to see... in your mind. Spooky...

Will - yes but UTFT!

Michael Kenrick [122] it would appear that your mind and your fingers are much faster than mine I bow to your supremacy, it must be great for you to have someone you can ridicule.

I must be the only one to miss a letter or two from posts, and I must confess my spelling is not so good, so you might have further cause to mock me. I seem to have inadvertently stumbled on a way to bring a little pleasure into your life, and it's nice to know that I'm useful for something.

Andy #92, spot on... and my biggest laugh of the day. You da man.

Brent, yes, and the colour blue is actu... OK, that's enough for now.

Michael Kenrick - Just a civil question for you. Have you a grudge against posters of a certain age? You certainly have it in for John McFarlane - and you had a go at me. Why? Is it because we are both in our 80's or neither of us swear or what?

John Mc, Snr, and Bernie, have no doubt, in spirit, wisdom, vigour and belief, you're the DNA, of all matters Everton FC.

Your knowledge, history, and insight is unsurpassed, so never feel put down by any one on TW.

It's a great platform, and rightfully every one is entitled to show their views, in a respectful manner.

I'm with the conscious Evertonians who support you fellas, as custodians the oracle, of matters Everton.

Hence in increasing hard times in UK plc, at the match, home or away, we take care of our families and friends.

Let's work on some form of appreciation for our supporters, who've done the colours for Crown, Country, and Everton?

BMD, could be a starting point...Design, capacity, etc..prematch, should be achievable in terms of catering.

It's a game and this website is about EFC and Evertonians, and life's fortunes.

There's no space for any Evertonian, to feel put downor alienated on TW.

So, each to their own, and follow the Everton cause… no more feckin ego and smartarse put-down.

Humour, and the more gallows, the better, it's what we love, but not to the effect people feel alienated.

ToffeeWeb is a life link to many people across the globe.

“What's Our Name?”

Will "reading TW now, in total, permanent darkness. Only the mentally constructed picture of the reflected electromagnetic radiation provides the "Light" for you to see... in your mind."

Seriously, where can I read up on that idea?

Frank Lampard is only the tenth most attractive EPL manager according to this report by geneticists in the Daily Star:

Link

Moyes ranks number one. It's not my area of expertise but I found that a little surprising. Marco Silva was number two. Klopp and Creaswhead ranked above Frank

Tony #88, I remember the headline in the Red Echo 'Billy fails fatness test'.

This website is primarily an all things Everton FC site, where all matters concerning the club are discussed. It offers views and opinions on news, historical perspectives etc pertaining to the club. That has to include the supporters of course, with their views of events both current and historic. The combination of quality submissions, opposing views and supporters insights, make ToffeeWeb head and shoulders above other fan sites.

The above functionality of the site is added to by the experiences of those who post, be it directly in referencing the club or not. ToffeeWeb has, perhaps indirectly but just as valuably, provided a social network of fans with like minded views, to meet and discuss all things, including of course football!

The site fulfills therefore a social need to interact and create friendship as well as debate. Perhaps this was never the intention but nonetheless it has given many on here many a smile and a chance to meet and discuss face to face.

The site has enabled many, like myself, who because of a tyranny of distance are unable to enjoy the comrades of a drink in the pub, pre or post game, where one can debate views but just as importantly meet people who share backgrounds.

ToffeeWeb is all of theses, that's why it can be so good, why many stay. For the editors it may be hard to try to keep to boundaries and reminders make sense but management in times of post season or breaks, are difficult, no news..no posts, the supporters make their own news, and very good it can be!

Christine, it's a virtual pub for those of us who live a long way from the real thing.

Kieran, my wife says Arteta, no contest. And he doesn't even make the top half in the article.

Mike,

I'm no expert but Steve Cooper and maybe Brenda apart, I'd have thought 17 would rank above Moyes but there's no accounting for taste. Clearly the man is a sex symbol.

Mike 136# it is very much the first place I go to when I pick up my tablet or phone, its been that way since I first found the place around 2005 I think, its part of my day to day life and I have Lyndon, Michael and the many, many posters to thank for that.

It's not been without a few bumps along the way, I have fallen foul of a few who are determined to play the (wo)man not the ball, but I try to not fall into that trap and in the main have enjoyed the banter and enjoyed hearing from others like yourself and Jamie, in countries afar.

I am not going to go on about age but as the days go by, the draw of home grows stronger, must be like elephants going home to die! But sitting in BMD with a season ticket would just do me..

So to all of the posters I say well done you add colour, laughter, debate, sarcasm humour and knowledge into my day. For Michael and Lyndon, my grateful thanks for just making all this happen.. God knows how or why you do it but I am glad you do.

Oh I know we can all get frustrated with stuff (and I have had many a barney on here with the likes of Doddy, Martin and others over the years) but we are all passionate blues just not passionate friends!!

Keep the flag flying!

Christine, same here. When I hit my desk at 6:30am, it's already midday on Merseyside and I simply have to check in on the latest before I start work. And sometimes it can be an hour or two before I get to my day!

I have the same homing instinct you do about Goodison, and I've never lived around there. I've told my wife that when she leaves me, I'm moving over there to watch games and drink a Guinness a week.

John Mc #127 and Michael #122, having attended the Royal Ag College 1977-80, I look forward to this new crop of ideas. I hope it isn't too harrowing for others.

I had my own personal TW in those days. The lads with whom I shared a house were amazed that every Tuesday or Wednesday I would receive a lengthy letter from my Dad, with precious match thoughts, and clippings from the Echo and/or Daily Post. If we had lost, the newspaper sections would be fewer but the philosophical parental words a little deeper.

I wonder how long before the clubs grasp the nettle and bring in a salary cap, as the level of clubs struggling to make a profit has to be addressed.

Even Man Utd, one of the World's wealthiest clubs, has just recorded a loss of 𧴩M, so if they are struggling, then heaven help the rest. Even the European giants Barcelona and Real Madrid are struggling, so much so that Barcelona have had to sell off a huge amount of their TV revenue for the next few years to stay afloat.

The reason for this is simple: the money we pay players and agents has now nearly bled the system dry. Take our own club where, at one point last year, 95% of all our income went straight into players' bank accounts. Now how is that sustainable and secondly, who allowed a club to be paying that level of wages?

So with most of Europe's top clubs struggling financially, is it any wonder that they were looking at other avenues to earn more money, like the European Super League?

For some reason, the top clubs see a salary cap as losing their biggest bargaining tool, ie, the money they can pay players. So either they negotiate a salary cap or find ways that the elite clubs get more from Sky which will have a catastrophic outcome for those not in the cartel.

Brian,

There absolutely should be a salary cap. All they have to do is add in bonuses related to performance. It would also stop a lot of the contract mercenaries downing tools and sitting on their arses as they wouldn't get paid.

It would be a much better and fairer system but that nonce at the PFA would baulk at the idea. It would also release cash flow down the leagues to grassroots level, instead of all these greedy bastards taking the TV money that we pay for.

There is a new Uefa squad cost rule which will limit clubs spending on wages, transfers and agent fees to 70% of their revenue. With the link to club revenue it could be argued that it maintains the same pecking order.

Uefa introduces 70% squad cost rule as part of new financial regulations

TW does go through its "robust" phases, when some of the exchanges get extremely heated.

It has always reminded me of my Grandad's pub in the Crosby of my youth: piss-taking which sometimes got out of hand; some right royal battles as emotions ran high (especially near closing time); people getting barred out; the occasional shouting matches; grudges lasting for years; and people disappearing for a time.

However, the same characters usually turned up again, and in the end most people more or less managed a semi-benevolent neutrality towards those they couldn't abide.

Tony: "people disappearing for a time".

Tony, one more ToffeeWebber has just decided to call it a day due to the negativity of a small handful of posters (he mentioned the names of 3 of them who are known for never posting anything positive re Everton).

I hope he comes back soon, and the others. TW is worse for them going.

Hi Christine [138] following the get-together on Sunday 18th I posted to say that during the toast to absent friends my thoughts were for you and your Uncle Tommy, among others.

That post was transferred to the 'talking points' thread and subsequently to the 'more talking points' thread which was removed by the Tuesday 20th. I just want you to know that I kept my promise to you, and I'm quite sure that if you had read it you would have responded,

On a more serious note I trust that you are keeping well, and I understand your yearning to return home, I hope that you accomplish that in the near future.

Hi John, thank you for remembering Tommy, I did actually respond on the same thread, but it appears it was subsequently lost as posts were moved to other threads. I guess it ended up on the cutting room floor.. no matter, I did appreciate the thought, if I remember I wondered just who got Tommy season ticket!

But touch wood health remains stable as long as I keep taking the pills! One of these days, I am determined to make BMD... and thank you and Dave and Tony A personally. So stay well till I get there!

Brent (145),

I agree that it would be a shame to lose some of our posters.

As for your "tree in the forest" (114), a week or so ago someone sent me the following on Whatsapp:

"If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman there to hear. is he still wrong?"

Tony,

I've done a few stints in the ToffeeWeb clink down the years myself. Lonely old place. You can hear what others are saying but you can't talk back.

Brent ~145, who is the person you are referring to please?

Tony #148, Kieram #149 - excellent!

James, I think I better not name any of the persons I alluded to, in fairness to them.

James

I don't know the first two malcontents said poster referred to that Brent alluded to but I believe the third man was Harry Lime.

Kieran. a nice attempt

Brent.

So mystery poster has said he's had enough, did he do this on TW or tell you personally?

The latter would be a breach of trust, the former is already out there.

Which is it, mate?

James, the latter, mate.

Kieran #149. When you get put into ToffeeWeb clink is there an onboarding programme?

Are you warned against talking to certain inmates? Do they force you to sleep on the bottom bunk on your first night?

Do they play "You'll Never Walk Alone" all night when you are trying to get to sleep? Are there any jobs apart from counting the Arteta money or trying to locate the Fortress Sports Fund?

Sounds a real dive to me.

Tony,

The cell is decorated with pictures of Kenny Dalglish.

Brent, fair enough, thanks for your reply.

I check the site every day at least once but not as frequently during the day now. I do clock names and think their point may be worth reading. There are a few that I wonder why post anything?

Christine;

I like TW for all of the reasons you state and we all can, and do, disagree on football and politics etc but that's one of the things which makes TW a bit different from other Everton fan sites.

However, I've recently noticed a tendency for some to resort to personal comments, some of which amount to online bullying. It's reprehensible, uncalled for and diminishes those resorting to it.

We've just lost two long standing and valued contributors and if it doesn't stop I'm sure more will follow.

I posted this morning about the need for a salary cap, I have been out most of the day only to come in to hear this Government are handing out what will mean massive savings on the tax bill of these already overpaid players.

Someone has just done a quick calculation and they say that for anyone earning a million a year with the new tax and NIC reduced payments will be 㿢,400 a year better off, and someone on 㿅,000 per will be 𧷐 a year better off.

Now when you think many in the Premier League are on 2, 4, 5 or more millions per year, the benefit they will get is grotesque. Well, we can see this government aren't hiding the fact that they are helping the better off, this is supposed to be in the name of making us more productive so how do multi-millionaires getting such tax breaks achieve that?

The obscene thing is many watching these players are using foodbanks to help get by. I accept it's not only Premier League footballers who will benefit, but somethings wrong when we limit NHS workers to a 3% increase.

Brian,

It's an interesting point. It throws up some interesting scenarios. If this tax change meant that the tax take of the government increased overall cos, eg, a few businesses relocated from Europe to take advantage of the tax breaks, then it may be a price worth paying.

I'd rather have that, than the current situation. But it is a gamble, and yes the optics are difficult for a government to explain when the lens everyone views it through is 'what is fair'. But since when has kickstarting an economy been primarily about what is fair?

Trickle-down economics has never worked primarily because little, if anything, ever trickles down. Any economist will tell you this and that's why the pound's value has, today, crashed in the financial markets.

It's quite an odd philosophy that says to incentivise people to work, the rich must be financially rewarded and the poor financially penalised.

It's a quite blatant Tory redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich.

Brent @ 132:

I'd say just search and read about light, electromagnetic radiation etc.

I'm guessing the departed poster with no name is: The Poster With No Name – not seen any ghost posts lately...

Bill - the old saying:

To make the rich work harder you pay them more, to make the poor work harder, you pay them less.

In many cases, it's sadly true.

(And it's not Tories, it's all of them – they work for globalists.)

The more apt name name for trickle down theory was the original, horse-and-sparrow economics. Feed the horse enough oats and some would pass onto the road for the sparrow. In the event the sparrows went hungry. It was also partly responsible, according to some, for the 1896 economic depression in the USA.

Will #163 - thanks. #164 - yes.

Pete: "It was also partly responsible, according to some, for the 1896 economic depression in the USA."

What, the sparrows? Or the horses?

It's not about what's fair. If this tax change increases the annual tax take cos business likes it, then it's job done.

I'll set them up Brent, you knock 'em down.

Paul Klugman, the Nobel Prize Winner for Economics has just tweeted:

“What's really amazing is that surging interest rates have been accompanied by a *plunge* in the pound. This is not supposed to happen in advanced countries: we expect deficit spending to drive up interest rates and make the currency *rise*, which is what happened under Reagan.

But Britain is now trading like a developing country, where perceived fiscal irresponsibility is undermining confidence in the value of its currency. “

But I think we should listen to Kevin Molloy.

“It's not about what's fair. If this tax change increases the annual tax take cos business likes it, then it's job done.”

And to think he is allowed a vote at elections.

This is not just about wealthy people becoming even wealthier its going to have a disastrous effect on our economy which will impact everybody.

Many good judges are saying that Tony Barber, a Chancellor in Ted Heath's Conservative party in the early '70s, did something very similar, and it was generally accepted as the worst budget ever. But I think Kamikaze Kwarteng will have the title all to himself in the months ahead.

Apparently even most of the Tory MPs are far from happy with this budget, who would believe that to be the case given they are looking after the people they represent, but they know this will all end in tears.

Will #164, I know you don't mean it that way, but you should be aware of the multiple meanings of that word and that term you just used.

Kevin, you do make me smile.

Almost as much as Tory MPs do when trying to justify the opposite of what they voted for when Sunak was the Chancellor.

Pete 165,

I think trickle-down economics is supply-side economics in street clothes. Say's Law was the idea that supply or production creates its own demand. Yeah, just looked it up, I'm on there.

And it's Krugman. Listen to that guy whether you like him or not. If you don't think that is a good thing to do, ask John Paulson and various rotating figures at the Cato Institute and AEI how that works out.

Will @164,

I have never heard that old saying but it is true and I'm glad I heard it. The tax changes announced are, in my view, utterly iniquitous.

I think Truss is appalling but it is more worrying that she is so emboldened by her inexplicable elevation that she will spit on the lives of the poor with impunity.

Many people, through no fault of their own, will have a winter of fear. Some people, through no skill of their own, just got a huge pay rise.

Filter down my fucking arse. The ski chalet owners of Europe must be rubbing their hands.

Mike, if you mean Tories in the other context that I assume, I doubt there's confusion here.

Will, no, not "Tories."

The otherwise innocuous term "globalist" has recently become a disguised synonym for an anti-Semitic slur. From a certain extreme political view, if you work for globalists, you're a slave to the international Jewish conspiracy to... um... do whatever nefarious things Jews do to the world. One writer described it as the new alt-right dog whistle.

Just making you aware. Language can be seriously weird.

Andy:

I saw it on a little desk placard when I was about 21. It's not a common saying but I've heard it here and there since. Had to think about it for a while. Not many years later, I realized it's true.

As to the other stuff. Call me negative and a prophet of doom, but this is just part of the way things are being steered. The incumbents matter not. It's no longer greed, nor looking after friends/cohorts. It's not previous old philosophies.

Yes, in operation, the old systems will appear to be doing their thing, and they will, but towards a much wider agenda. It's not about "Them" having the money anymore, it's about the majority not having it. There are some very uncomfortable times on the horizon.

You got me on that one, Mike. Must be a recent new angle.

Alas, there are many ways to attack just about anything now. There is little debate, just undermining of character and appending of -isms. Regrettably and ridiculously, it's often the go-to attempt to stifle in the modern shit show. Quick, cheap, easy, and sidesteps discussion.

I'm well aware of what gets said, where, why and to what end. I'm yet to hear the context you cited but will look out for it. It won't affect me though, I don't play games and don't scare at false crap. Thanks for the heads up though.

The problem is the users, not the language!

O ye TW Gods,

I'm not saying we need it just yet but maybe some consideration of a space where people could go to 'take it outside' so to speak is a way to allow people to say what they individually want to say and how they want to say it while still preserving some sense of decorum in the other space.

Just a thought that occurred to me just now.

TW Gods:

Please take posts such as Dale's at 174, to a more suitable "Space".

Brian, not sure the budget is for the people they represent.

There were almost 14,000,000 people who voted for the Conservatives (or was that 14,000,000 who could not stand Corbyn?) and I am sure that the impact of the 45% tax only impacts about 650,000 so that is not the majority of people they represent.

I'm not saying I know it's going to be successful. I'm just saying in the abstract, if it works it doesn't really matter if it passes the 'fairness test', which if you think about it, is irrelevant, and should not be the determinant on whether we adopt the policy.

What the Tories are trying to do is boost that part of the market which creates wealth. Like it or not, they are the people who are the top earners.

Steve @170

Whereas, of course, only clever people who agree with you should be allowed to vote.

Surprised Liz Truss can afford budget cuts seeing as, while Foreign Secretary,she spent two grand of government money at the Norwich Cty club shop.

Link

The fairness test?

I thought you'd reached your peak on the Benitez thread, but this is mad talk.

What's your definition of whether this crackpot Smithsonian policy "works"? That those on 𧵎k plus a year get an extra 5% back to buy some much-needed shiny trinkets?

Of course governance and law should be fair. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

This is Thatcherite economics bred with disaster capitalism. A mutant stain on humanity which needs to be called out for what it is.

And the top earners don't create wealth on their own... they exploit the working classes to do so.

Kieran, I think they do it on purpose, so people can throw their slippers at the TV to vent.

She supports safe standing at grounds too, I see. Sweet – she's just like us. Think I might go and vote next time.

Sadly for you, Ciaran, we don't live in a communist system where every economic decision has to pass some litmus test where every worker in the land agrees to it cos it puts him in a better position.

This isn't rocket science, we are trying to attract wealth creators to relocate to Britain, by making it more profitable to do business here. if we succeed, and the next Jeff Bezos relocates from Germany to here, and he and his workforce pay their tax here, we get on outsize benefit from a small outlay.

The policy itself may not be 'fair' in that it incentivises people who are already wealthy, but we aren't just in the business of allocating resources. Of more importance is to have a thriving economy, and the people above have an outsize influence on whether that economy hums along.

Define ‘fair'. Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different answers. It is a meaningless word.

I could argue that it would be fair if everyone paid the same amount of tax (in £s not %) or that it is fair for everyone to pay the same % of their income just as easily as I could argue that the current system, whereby higher earners pay higher rates, is fair.

My opinion is that nobody should pay 45% tax (plus NICs) on any part of their earnings.

Kevin @188.

Spot on, and put so much better than I could have done.

Will,

I said 'could go' (not cancel culture). Will, you said "take posts... to a more suitable place" (cancel culture).

Your move, Will.

The Sun say the average person will save 𧵦 a year. So basically a little over ١ a week. Is that really noticeable as a benefit to anyone? Versus the issues arising from lost revenue?

I guess it's easier than looking for a few quid down the back of the sofa, but doesn't sound like something that will suddenly change the average taxpayer's sitz im leben.

Kevin,

You don't know much about the work of Marx or Engels if that's how you think communism works.

The rest of your awful post I have little interest in debating. I've spent years fighting with people about the social politics of Ayn Rand and curious other ghouls... There is no convincing those who obsess about rampant individualism.

Good luck.

Dale - no move necessary.

Possibly not but I think Krugman's point is that the average people who don't get immediately affected by the policy will eventually face an implicit loss through higher import prices if foreign bond purchases go south and the currency is dropping. They call them bonds over there don't they?

Will, so you'll behave yourself, then??

Ciaran @193.

Little interest in debating or no counter-argument?

Give it a go!

Kieran, a tidy sum like that could heat a home this winter for as much as, I dunno, maybe a couple of weeks or so.

I thought it was 'rugged individualism'.

Ciaran @193.

Little interest in debating or no counter-argument?

Give it a go!
‐-----------

Counter an argument against fairness? Self-evident is it not? like change or the Krebs cycle.

Pointless debate.

Re Bert Trautmann…

My late dad was brought up in Huyton. At an early age, he told me of he and his mates going down the road to look at the German prisoners in a camp where they lived in Longview. They were all aware even then that there was a goalie of some renown in there and they got to identify him watching him in goal behind the wire.

Other thing I recall him telling me about was the fearsome French Maquis who were also interned in there but were allowed to keep some weapons (obviously they were well kept apart from the Germans). He said they scared the lads more than the Krauts... always brandishing long daggers and knives, sharpening and polishing them yards from them!! Said they looked bloody frightening.

Will,

If it's a tax cut, wouldn't that mean that people would just be taxed about ١ less each, meaning by December they'd only have saved about 㿊?

Or is it a tax rebate where the government are going to mail them a check for the whole amount?

Chris, that sounds worse than Pontins.

Kieran, that's about it re. cut vs rebate.

Which it is, I don't know, I'm yet to look at the details.

Fairness? Today's tax cuts mean that somebody on 㿼k / year gains 𨀼 / year (every year). Somebody on only the average salary of 㿊k gains only 𧶀 / year. So the average worker is already worse off (increasingly year by year).

Ask youself how much you benefit from that, as the wealth gap increases.

Those retired, unemployed or earning so little that they pay no tax will see no direct tax benefit at all.

Those tax cuts are to be financed by increased government borrowing and debt. We will all pay to reduce that debt.

The tax cuts are meant to incentivise the wealthier to work harder, increase production, and earn more, with trickle-down of wealth to the less advantaged. I see no evidence that any increased earnings at the top end trickle down to the less well-off, so the increased wealth gap is likely to remain.

And that's all assuming production and productivity will increase. How?

Who gains from all this?

Debating the rigours of socialism vs capitalism on a footie thread. Lol.

There is no debate, by the way.

Try this….

“Capital must protect itself in every possible way, both by combination and legislation. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.

“When, through process of law, the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of the government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers.

“These truths are well known among our principal men, who are now engaged in forming an imperialism to govern the world. By dividing the voter through the political party system, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting for questions of no importance.

“It is thus, by discrete action, we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished.”

Montagu Norman, Governor of The Bank of England, addressing the United States Bankers' Association, NYC 1924

It's definitely one of the reasons why there seems to be a lot of anger in the air though, Nick @205, and no wonder when you read #206.

Ciaràn, it's not worth it. "Sadly for you we don't live in a communist system..".

"Wealth creators", create wealth for themselves. Good for them. However, to argue that this will long term help us all is just pointless. People will die this winter because Truss, like most "wealth creators", have a scarcely hidden contempt for those who aren't.

Pretending that Truss is giving tax breaks to the rich to help the poor is an insult to anyone who has one iota of decency.

Or this one, on a similar theme:

"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies... is a foolish idea. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can throw the rascals out at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy.

"Then it should be possible to replace it, every four years if necessary, by the other party which will be none of these things but will still pursue, with new vigor, approximately the same basic policies."

Carroll Quigley

Nick, no debate? What am I going to do down the pub this evening?

I have a number of friends who are socialist, some even daft enough to think that Corbyn was (is) the answer!! Explaining to them that they are wrong – I call it ‘care in the community' – is one of the few pleasures left to me at my age.

True Tony. It must be climate change, lol.

Once people like us, the plebs, actually accept that the whole system is utterly bent in favour of the select few (who hijacked it years ago) and Tories, Labour etc are all working towards the same goal in pleasing their paymasters, they'll feel a lot better and be able to get on with important things – like football (a great distraction).

Nick - nah.

Conspiracy theory, fake news, paranoia, he was misquoted, this has been debunked, no groups control things this way etc.

"They wouldn't do that". And anyway, somebody would've said...

And looking at the TV news just now...

All the tax cuts mean that somebody earning 𧶀,000 / year gains over ٣,000 / year.

If you're on 㿀,000 / year, you stand to gain 𧵎 / year.

That's fair.

Well, a lot on here a bit miffed about the level of tax cuts…

Best idea then is no tax cuts for anyone. Sound okay? Bet you the media won't be suggesting that when they do the interviews.

Geoff, I bet your mates love you explaining the error of their ways to them! Please persevere, they'll thank you for it.

(Take your drink to the bogs with you, by the way.)

There's no gains for anyone ceteris paribus because we have imported inflation due to strong dollar which won't go away based on interest rate parity (real yields need to be positive).

It's a smoke screen anyway, so fuck them (see above).

I've heard it said that football is the opium of the people, Nick.

I remember I had an Egyptian mate, whilst living in New Zealand, and he told me that whenever there was ever any protests in his country, they used to put loads of football on the television, and everyone used to go home.

At the risk of sounding like a socialist, football is a palliative while capitalism fucks you over on everything else.

And the sad thing is, I love the game anyway.

If you look deep enough, you will find that it isn't really the construct of socialism or capitalism that's the problem, it's the bastards that are running it….

"The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies... is a foolish idea. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical."

Interestingly the British political system has adopted this approach. Labour are a shameful centrist mess which means the alternative is only a slightly more venemous version of them... Que sera...

Blair seen to that. People had the opportunity with Corbyn and treated it like a beauty contest, rather than a serious challenge to the hegemony of shifty swivel-eyed fuckwits.

You get what you vote for.

Surely privatization makes a lot more sense on things like Water, Power and Railways, although it might not be possible for the select few to get away with their very lucrative backhanders, if this was to happen, maybe?

Will @212 the whole idea of “conspiracy theory” – granted some are fucking ridiculous and self-serving – was created by the intelligence agencies to dissuade independent thinking… which is frowned upon outside the corridors of power.

Conquered, uneducated, divided people are far easier manipulated and convinced by their supposed benevolent rulers.

Ciaran, the point is… you get the same government every time and over time. They're all the same.

Actually John Mershiemer does a great lecture on US liberal hegemony….it's certainly an interesting view. It's Empire building but far more surreptitious than say the Romans.

Trump (a populist and a disruptive – and I'm not an advocate) threatened the established and cosy power base….which is why they're throwing everything at him.

England just started and it's already 0-0. unbelievable but Magyarzsag are winning.

Has Mohamed Al-Fayed ever been part of these intelligence agencies, which might dissuade independent thinking?

The Tories know their days are numbered. Today's cash grab for the rich is no better than Putin giving away Russian billions to the oligarchs.

They are grabing what they can for them and their rich friends before they go, so they will be looked after in the future. Shamefull.

How they have the balls to sit on TV giving billions to billionaires while people go hungry in our country is just unbelievable.

Liz Truss is just a robot, slime bag, Thatcher Tory lovechild twat.

Al-Fayed, Tony?

The point is that we're all duped all the time and it creates divisions… to divide us. Socialism is shite, it's never worked. Capitalists are all greedy cunts. Fuck you. No fuck you. Etc etc…

Have you ever wondered why you are not taught financial economics and about the stock market at school but you have to memorise fucking mountain ranges in the Americas?

Would understanding markets and being able to trade, invest and create your own wealth not be beneficial? Do you understand the power of compounding returns….where your money will double every 10 years for a 7% return?

In 40 years – your kids' investment horizon… 𧴜 becomes ٟ,500. Do you know your pension and your insurance policies are all invested in the market? Do you know what fractional reserve banking is and how banks use your money to increase their value?

Take now for instance… if you had an informed “view”, you could have taken a short position on cable to hedge out your inflating bills. Not a massive gamble, but an insurance bet. Or gone long TTF gas when Putin invaded Ukraine?

Robert Kiyosaki wrote a book in 1997 called Rich Dad Poor Dad and it explains a few of these concepts… his lectures are very good.

But if you threaten the status quo too much, you're collectively a problem. Financial crimes are dealt with very harshly, for good reasons under the legally embedded system.

In a free market (supposedly), anyone can get to the top but you still have to play ball with the power brokers once you're there.

Careful now Nick.. with all that sensible discourse you're starting to sound like an Adam Curtis documentary..

You'll be going on a list will this kind of sedition.. 😉

Lol Ciaran. Have a good evening all. 👍

Nick @ 222 - I er, kinda know about this stuff. I was being a little sarcastic there. I think you realized, but just in case. :-)

👍

Good interesting post, Nick @227.

I remember arguing with one teacher, who said I was too good for his commerce class, but I refused to be promoted into economics because (I was a dickhead) he wouldn't let my mate go with me.

I also remember refusing to learn about the Great Lakes of North America and Canada, because it had nothing to do with football, which was unfortunately the only thing that really interested me, when I was a kid.

I do believe the Tories are in Liverpool right now for one reason only. Under a guise, that I wouldn't be surprised to read about in that book by Robert Kiyosaki...

Read a great deal of the above but there are two glaring examples, at least, in the centre of the most recent Tory Establishment (I was going to say "heart", but we're talking "Tories") when it comes to showing they have no time at all for the efficacy of "trickle-down" economics.

First there's that Rees-Mogg, a guy you'd never get tired of punching, who moved almost all of his and his family's personal fortune out of the UK in fear that the very Brexit he was and remains a total advocate for, diminished its value – as has massively and provably been shown to be the case to the vast majority of what he would term "lesser" mortals.

Second, there's James Dyson, a mega-rich Tory whose main achievement in life has been to redesign a hoover (and fuck him, it's only a hoover). To maximise his personal fortune, he abandoned all the UK employees he had, the very people whose sweat and industry made him mega-rich, and moved his entire operation to Asia, where workers were available on poverty wages without unions or safety welfare.

Uncontested media reports last year stated he had our treacherously incompetent criminal PM on speed-dial so that he, BoJo, could deflect shit away from Dyson's "enterprises", just as long as he always slung a few bob into the Tory shit-pit of money of course.

And then there's the Panama Papers scandal spelling out, literally, the names of those wealthy bastards, individual and corporate, who succeed in further robbing the host populations that made them rich by way of avoiding legitimate tax demands – whilst Tory governments always look the other way.

Tony - here is a taster

https://youtu.be/azq0S0DKS50

School is another social construct. It's not for everyone. Children will excel in what they enjoy and what they are good at. Everyone should learn to read/write for sure but why should kids who don't like memorising facts be made to sit through all these tedious lessons and be graded by exams? It's so unfair and it's so divisive. These children are made to feel useless and unwanted… it's a great start in life NOT! But it doesn't need to be like this.

This country is now critically short skilled labour. Why? They disincentivised skilled learning over going to a “university” and loading yourself up with debt to study for a “degree”. And kids don't understand what debt is and the servitude it creates and propagates…so it's perfectly pitched at the masses but it's a false economy. Demonising or devaluing people because they don't have some A-Level is pitiful, exclusive and a form of social engineering. It's wrong on every level. I bet Jacob Rees Mogg couldn't fix my shower.

ps: I never studied economics either.

Clueless Southgate does it again!

Maguire, Dier, Shaw, Sterling etc… all shite but undroppable according to the unflappable.

I'm not watching this garbage in Qatar.

I called it a long time ago that Southgate didn't have the smarts to do anything with improving England and most of his wins early on were against feeble opponents so now it's time to get him out of there before the World Cup.

I thought Pickford would have saved that shot too but, apart from Foden, England were lifeless and Kane was like a crab.

Geoff @210. Corbyn could have been the answer. Sadly he wasn't given the opportunity to do so.

There's a reason the Prem is full of foreign players and that reason is we stopped producing proper footballers decades ago. England against any half decent opposition inevitably get beat simply because English players can barely do the basics. Kane and Sterling are 2 of our "stars" and both wrestle with rather than control the ball there's not a proper footballer to be had. They don't shout for the ball they bray the effin' donkeys.

How people continue to be duped by wins against pub teams is unbelievable. Southgate maybe among the most uninspiring figures in footy but he can't turn water into wine.

The England team should be disbanded

So many funnies on here tonight – thank you all – but this one from Les had me on the floor: "Corbyn could have been the answer."

Lest you have perhaps forgotten already: In 2019, after deadlock in Parliament over Brexit, Corbyn endorsed holding a referendum on the withdrawal agreement, with a personal stance of neutrality. In the 2019 general election, Labour's vote share fell to 32%, its lowest since 2015, leading to a net loss of 60 seats and leaving it with 202, its fewest since 1935, and presenting the Conservative party under Prime Minister Boris Johnson with a landslide majority of 80 seats.

I'll get your coat.

Doesn't mean that socialist principles wouldn't work. Please don't be so demeaning Michael.

Dier was our best player according to the tabloids. Let that sink in for a bit.

Michael (240) now this thread has descended to the political gutter might I point out that in 2017 Corbyn oversaw one of the biggest swings to Labour in history. And yes he dithered on Brexit: if he had supported a Left Green exit strategy in 2019 he would have outflanked Johnson and we would have had somebody seriously impressive running the country. I don't mean Corbyn but John McDonnell of course. And there is the matter (revealed in the Forde Report) of how sabotage of the Corbyn Project by the Labour Right probably cost them to the 2017 Election. But anyway, isn't this a football site?

Every time I don't watch England, 5 minutes reading afterwards vindicates my choice.

What so hilarious about that, Michael?

Would you care to offer a substantive review of Corbyn's politics or is the vacuous Daily Mail inspired beauty contest enough for you?

Well said, Laura.

Jeremy ought to have stood by his eurosceptic principles. Labour lost that election because they deserted the 4 million of us who voted out.

Anyway back to basics. Capitalism v workers. Them against us. Simple.

Nick 234.

I agree that skilled learning is no longer valued by the education system.

Some countries start learning their kids at 15 a trade if they are not academically strong to give them the best opportunity when they leave school. University is sold as lifestyle to kids.

I tell my young nephews to get a trade because a couple who spent 2- 3 years at uni can't get any decent jobs they want. One works in a Costa the other in an off-licence part time... Well worth going to uni??

Yet my youngest nephew was shit in school, went out labouring at 16, worked his arse off, and now just employed his first lad to his building firm. Doing well for himself as many skilled trades are because young people are sold on the ideas of being DJs, influencers, rappers, TV hosts, and pipe dreams that only the slightest few will ever achieve.

Jacob Ress-Mogg defo doesn't shower!!!

Unfortunately that was Corbyn's downfall, Les... trying to walk a tightwalk leading a centrist labour party line while having proper and radical left-wing policies.

A decent man who gave a shit, hammered to death by a right-wing media because his tie was wonky or he once met Gerry Adams.

His problem is that he was too nice. He should've told them all to get fucked in true Mick Lynch style.

Les #246,

As you're one who voted for Brexit can you tell me of one tangible benefit?

Just curious.

Tom Watson's claims were also a problem and I don't think McDonnell ever found anything to back those claims. Could be wrong and it could be that it just couldn't be substantiated but Tom didn't help at all with that timing, like 6 weeks before the general election or something like that.

Bill... here's one... the inevitable demise of the union.

Don #233,

I'd add that the main driver of Brexit was the Tories haste to evade the proposed EU anti-money laundering legislation.

Another was their long-held desire to make a bonfire of Health & Safety and working conditions legislation.

It was sold to the gullible on the basis of 'taking back control' which we always had anyway and more money for the NHS which was a blatant lie.

When they spoke about immigration what they really meant was black immigration and this was a direct message to the über right racist supporters of Garage et al.

The Ukrainian immigrants were fast tracked because, after all, they're 'like us'.

Corbyn's main errors were in failing to purge the right wing MPs and party officials and sitting on the fence on Brexit which the majority of us didn't vote for.

Needless to say, my German and French friends think we're barm pots. They're right, and we have the government we deserve.

Bill. 52 /48.

52/48
Just shows you that there are more idiots around than you think.

No fairness exists within the Tory philosophy, it is an anathema to their very ideology of work or no income? How can it be fair that an Everton footballer on ٤M a year will be better off, cash in hand, as a result of this tax cut by 𧷤k or ٤k a week? While staff at our club have just been given the living wage?

Many years ago, I read an article about UBI (Universal Basic Income) – in short, it is a means to ensure that everyone is paid an income from the government that is not means tested. Whether you work or not, it is a basic level of income for everyone to ensure everyone in society can live, irrespective of if one works or not. Pensioners, disabled, NHS, whoever, everyone is protected by a guaranteed income level.

Under the latest Tory tax cut initiative, the disadvantaged will be even more so, the gap between haves and have-nots will be wider, the pressure on public finances will mean lower pay, poorer services and more job cuts, it's inevitable because of the lower tax take.

Where is the equity for those on a fixed income such as pensioners or the disabled? (Try finding a job to pay bills when you are in your 70s or disabled.)

The country is crying out for a different approach because the ping-pong approach is destroying lives.

I believe the Labour Party in the UK should order a total review of the NHS to bring the whole service up to 21st Century and be fit for purpose.

That they should adopt a UBI as a basic right for every citizen at a guaranteed living wage.

That they should renationalise basic human services such as water and energy during times of economic or national emergency.

Fairness... never going to happen though is it?

Stephen #255,

Doesn't it just, Stephen! It was indeed 52/48 of the 33 million who voted. The population of the UK is over 60 million so even an idiot doesn't need a calculator to work out that the majority of the population didn't vote for Brexit.

Les #254,

Have you managed to think of a Brexit benefit, yet?

Just to break off for a bit of footy!

This is the voting link for Premier League Player of the Month.

Click here to vote for Alex Iwobi as your EA PL player of the month 😎 https://plpotm.easports.com/

Michael,

Wasn't Corbyn also cozying up with Islamic Jihad? A Michael Foot clone with anti-Jewish prejudice. Sounds like a plant to me. Can't believe anyone legitimately thought he was a viable candidate.

Come on Geoff @ 184, don't be too hard on yourself. I am sure you are clever in your own own way.

Although it is hard to discern it from your posts on this thread.

Ahhh.. the Corbyn anti-semite agenda. It was only a matter before that lie surfaced. Most people who promote that load of aul bollox will happily conflate support for Palestine or criticism of Israel with a prejudice against Jews. Led by the nose to that conclusion by those with vested interests.

As for the rather crass suggestion that anyone who voted for Brexit is an idiot... again, an argument without any refinement. The Brexit referendum was the one vote I abstained from in my life. I genuinely weighed up the options and came out ambivalent every time. Many smarter men and women than me voted to leave on the basis of their left-wing politics. Not because of immigration or soundbites about the NHS... but because of things like threats to collective bargaining, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, militarisation, workers' rights...

So perhaps it is not as simple as suggested.

Lest we forget... McDonnell is a kopite.

Well, this one got interesting!

That's the problem, Bill. People don't use their vote but then complain it didn't go the way they wanted it.

I'm guilty. I've probably only ever voted in 2 or 3 General Elections in my 51 years, so 33 years of voting eligibility. Some of that is down to being impassive in party politics. I don't have allegiance in the way I do with Everton and football.

I look for a leader. And right now, and for many years, the problem we have is that there aren't that many leaders around on all sides of the political spectrum. Are there any in fact?

Truss is a more polished May trying to pretend she's Thatcher. Starmer is trying to be Blair and just wants to play to the cameras. Critical but never says what he would do.

Some of it is probably down to me signing up to serve the Crown, not politicians, so it kind of made me independent of politics. Caveat: that's my own view of life. I'm under no illusion that it was the political masters that made decisions and sent me away. Often into situations I didn't agree with. But that's what you sign up to do.

I often have discussions with my Liverpool family. Some of them are hard-core Socialists and always have been since I remember. I always point out that I don't think there are too many differences between hard left and hard right. Stalin and a certain German dictator had a lot more in common than their differences. Extreme is extreme. I'll stay moderate. Apart from when it comes to Everton.

Soldiers going door to door in areas of the Ukraine to force people to vote. There's Democracy right? We don't have it too wrong in this country.

We have a Democratic system. Every adult has the right to vote. Like a football match, you won't always win. But as the saying goes, use it or lose it and sometimes, you have to accept defeat.

In my personal and humble view, it doesn't often change life too much and works in cycles. The next Government will be Labour. They'll get it, tweak things a bit. The country will eventually become fed up with them as they are in the firing line, then the Conservatives will get back in. Country will get fed up with them, Labour back in. Repeat cycle.

Excuse my cynicism on politics. I think we really need the football back.

The mention of McDonnell.

Useless piece of information that many may already know.

I live in Uxbridge. Our MP is Boris. The neighbouring district, Hayes and Harlingtion is represented by McDonnell.

Everybody need good Neighbours. Those who remember the 80s might get that!!

Danny @ 263,

Unlike you, I tend to vote at every election. But I class myself as a floating voter. I try to support the person I think most likely to agree with my thoughts, rather than follow a particular Party. I usually find that is a waste of time as the person always follows the Party Whip, so really it is all a waste of time and money.

England is mostly a conservative country, plain and simple. Blair didn't represent real Labour, because if he did, he wouldn't have got into power and lasted so long in number ten, imo.

The thing that got me about the Brexit vote, is how many people supposedly influential people jumped sides, right up until the very end of the vote. It even made a Prime Minister, out of one remainer.

Ciaran (apologies... I can't type an acute accent for your name ).

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. However, I always wonder why the party doesn't deflect this anti-semitic nonsense by voicing opinion on other issues in the Middle East.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong but has any left-wing politician made reference to the burning of Coptic Christian churches in Egypt? Or the hanging of homosexuals in Iran?The harassment of Christians in Pakistan?

It almost makes one think that the Labour Party wants to keep voters in Tower Hamlets, Dewsbury, Blackburn sweet. But surely not... we don't do Tammany Hall style politics here, do we?

Steve @260. Clearly not as clever as you.

The problem with socialism is it pretends to be fair when in reality it is as corrupt, self-serving and potentially violent as any other form of government.

Capitalism has the advantage of being honest — everyone knows those at the top table couldn't give a shit and whilst people might not like it, they understand it. There is value in knowing where you stand.

Les @238.

Corbyn could never have been the answer as he had zero chance of being elected (thankfully).

Agree Bernie - keep an open mind. But this is coming from someone who doesn't vote too often.

I'm a dick when it comes to politics Tony. Purposely. I often challenge my Socialist cousins on that very subject.

"But you voted for Blair"? Is the question. Labour? Socialist? Career politician who I would argue bordered on leaning to the centre right. But he was Labour, so as long as the rosette was the right colour, then vote. Rather than look at what you're voting for.

They vote Labour regardless because they vote Labour. No other explanation.

I do the same when I'm in Texas. "You vote Republican because you always have"?

That's how Trump got in. And may well do again frighteningly.

If you're going to vote, look at what you're voting for. It's not about supporting the colours no matter what. It's not like supporting Everton.

I like that, Barry.

I'll leave the Corbyn stuff to the banner on the Kop and the "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" chants.

Before they headed back to their Surrey 5-bed detached mansion and acres of land.

Apologies for stereotyping.

Interestingly, if Corbyn had been elected he'd probably be gearing up to nationalise the energy industry or at the very least hand back some of their billions of profits to those who need it.

No apologies needed Alan (and I'm not French, so it's a fada... ctrl, alt, a – for future reference). Ironically Corbyn himself and those in Momentum regularly called out those very things... but as you'll see above, it's easy for others to misrepresent these concerns as something entirely different.

The great British public really can't be trusted when it comes to looking after its own interests. Why else do we keep picking extreme right-wing Tory governments to run the country into the ground? It's just another chapter in our history of self-inflicted misery.

Brexit has been a disaster for the economy, the Tories left our biggest economic trading block and replaced it with a race to the bottom plan of low growth, weakened pound and high inflation, let's see where that leads us!

I'm not a socialist, but surely a center-led political party is what we are crying out for but never seem to get. Somewhere deep embedded in most people's minds, not mine, is the need to serve and love rich people, whose only purpose is to screw the system for thier own profit no matter how destructive it may become. Rees-Mogg being a prime example.

Barry @269 is right though, it will never change, we're just not smart enough to ditch the rich and live a bit more equally, it will never happen.

Ciaran (still can't do it... shows what a drongo I am 🙂 )

I didn't know that stuff about Momentum. You've enlightened me... cheers!

I'll challenge you there, Trevor Peers, in your definition of extreme right.

1930s and 1940s Germany was extreme right. Stalin was extreme left. Putin is the closest example of that in the current era although I don't know where he sits. Putinism I guess is a term that will evolve.

We are mostly a moderate country and always have been.

We can't do coalitions. Merkel governed for years as who many regarded as Europe's most respected leader with a minority vote. We were in meltdown when May needed the DUP and freaked out with the Conservative-Liberal Coalition.

She governed by coalition. On 3 occasions a so-called Grand Coalition. That is the equivalent of a Conservative-Labour partnership. I think most would faint at the idea.

We apparently have to be blue or red. Forget the plans, just pick your colour.

Occasionally it is acceptable to go yellow as those Liberals are okay. Until you disagree with them. Then they get spiteful and nasty.

Great start to Saturday morning. Thanks everyone!!!

Good discussion though.

I am sure that many agree with Danny's final point @263, that we swing from Conservative Govt. to Labour Govt. and back again. So for those, the question is, what is the point?

I agree and find this situation very frustrating. I am leaning, more than ever to a system of Proportional Representation. This would bring Liberal ideas into the policy mix, as I believe that they would gain many more seats in Parliament.

From memory the Conservative / Liberal coalition seems to have been a reasonably calm period following the storm of the collapsing trading markets and some banks. Not perfect but not nearly as bad as the broken Manifesto promises of the successive Conservative Governments since.

FYI, I have always voted for the party that represents the working man but I am not clear on what Starmer is offering. Rant over, COYB :)

Larry @243,

"we would have had somebody seriously impressive running the country"

OMG... That is seriously funny!

Re John McDonnell: "The values of Catholicism are the inherent values of the Labour Party and the inherent values of socialism..."

OMG... that is somewhat less funny. While at one level, I find itextremely disturbing, it probably explains an awful lot about the distorted value system of entitlement that pervades a lot of last night's 'discussion'.

Danny 271, you're correct about blindly voting, that's why we have a shambles of a council in Liverpool, a corrupt, self-serving bunch of thieves and bullies.

Anderson, Hatton etc bent wankers the lot of them I'm ashamed they're Evertonians and so called socialists.

From each according to their means; to each according to their needs. People helping others less fortunate than themselves. A reasonable set of principles to live by, I think. Humanist, Christian etc (fill in the "etc" as you see fit!).

That leaves the question of how far those with the means should support those in need and with fewer means; and how you achieve that levelling up (a mantra of the last couple of years!) - for me, it's a case of achieving that through democratic means.

What's not to like. Democratic - the people choose it, not imposed in a dictatorship. If the people don't vote for that, so be it.

I think that's a fair set of principles to live by. Humanist, Christian - "etc". And democratic.

They're my principles, and if you don't like them, well I have others.

Like this one: make tax cuts and use the money to give 𧵎 / year to those earning 㿀,000 / year, and to give over ٣,000 / year to those earning 𧶀,000 / year. Every year.

Michael (278), having myself undertaken a study of McDonnell's economic policy including National Investment Bank, Bank of England reform, curbing the City of London's power, Green New Deal etc, I look forward greatly to your detailed critique and rebuttal of the same.

Will happily email it to you (section of a far larger book I'm writing) just to show I'm not bluffing. Or should I just cut out the middleman and visit Mail online? Alternatively we could all join a football site…

Wonder how McDonnell's views square with the fact that fascism was embraced by "Catholic" nations in the inter-War period, led by Salazar, Franco, Mussolini, et al. "Family. Church. Nation."

Danny #276,

I'd challenge your view that Stalin was extreme left. When Lenin died, there was, effectively, a counter coup and the right, in the form of Stalin, took control. Those on the left were eliminated or went into exile. What then emerged was a form of state capitalism.

In 1975, I was anti-EU and was the T&GWU delegate on the Liverpool 'Keep Britain Out', committee. (The Unionist, Billy Bingham was on the other side). In the '70s, membership of the EU (or Common Market as it was then called) was seen by many as detrimental to Liverpool as, apart from anything else, we were on the wrong side of the country. I think the next decade proved us right.

So, why do I now support the largest capitalist trading bloc in the world? Quite simply because the world has moved on and the EU offers more protection than the UK for workers rights and working conditions. The revitalisation of Liverpool was driven by EU grants, too.

I also remember travelling around Europe when there were still borders and you had to have little bags of different currency and travellers cheques! We also gained the right to live, study, work or retire to anywhere in the EU. Now we're an isolated, insignificant little country, looking into the big table from the outside and our children and grandchildren won't enjoy the freedoms we had.

Back in the UK and the establishment have it boxed off in retaining the status quo. The Labour Party is there to hold the fort for a bit when the Tories become too toxic and when in power to be blamed for the problems the Tories left behind. But they aren't allowed to become too radical. Hence the witch hunt against Corbyn and his replacement by Starmer, a 'safe' pair of hands who would have been regarded as on the right of a Heath government.

So, in reality we don't really have much choice when we vote. They're all just various shades of the same.

Roll on next month, our visit to Southampton should be quite informative. We have won 3 times this century, with a few draws also. Not so many victories to tally up, so I look forward to seeing an encouraging victory on October 1st to give us a sign of a future we can look forward to. I still dream of the 69/70 champions who beat every team that season. Those were the days my friends, we thought they'd never end COYB.

Alan (282) I wouldn't endorse that reported McDonnell comment, but would pointi out Catholicism is a broad church. Which includes something called Liberation Theology. Probably not featured on Mail online mind

Alan/Brent,

It depends whether John McDonnell is a follower of the Catholic Faith or the Catholic Church. They're not the same thing at all.

He studied to be a priest in his youth, but his politics are far from fascist.

Pretty much Bill. There is little difference.

You make an interesting point. The Conservatives campaigned for Europe in the 70s, Labour against. In honesty, I think we were always a half way house.1 it was always an uncomfortable relationship, especially when talk got to politics.

In honesty (again), I just haven't noticed any difference in travel and I go to European countries almost monthly.

On Stalin, that's to my point. They can label themselves to a mast. In this case "the Party". Not that the Soviet nations had a vote for nearly 100 years. Devil's Advocate again. Had Stalin been British and Labour I wonder how many would have blindly voted because of the red flag, ignoring, as you say, he was extreme.

On Corbyn, I think it speaks volumes that someone like Johnson rinsed him, including in the heartlands. I don't think a lot of people wanted Johnson. But they didn't want Corbyn.

Like you say. Choice is limited and most are not too different. In my opinion we have a very uninspiring bunch of politicians right now and no stand out leader amongst them.

We need to discuss over that drink!!!

Surprised that we have had no comments about last nights England game, bit like Everton struggling to score goals. I don't like the 3 at the back I don't think English defenders like this system, and no coincidence that Englands best 2 teams over the last 5 years play a 4-3-3. I think the problem with a 3 is that you end up playing a CB on the left or the right were they have played most of their time in the middle rather than the flanks. We have seen this problem first hand Tarkowski looks great in the middle of a back 4 but ask him to play on the left of a back 3 and he looks like a fish out of water.

Strange that England should struggle scoring goals given the fact that Kane is probably in the top 4 in World football of front line strikers. I think the reason Guardiola allowed Sterling to leave was his lack of converting good chances, also while a very good player I think Foden should be used in a 10 role than played wide left. Yes I know Guardiola plays him there for City but they have a lot more attacking options than England. Maybe a 4-2-1-3 might be a better option for England, I can only assume with Southgate not including Toney in the squad then he intends to start him against Germany on Monday, although if Kane is struggling in this system I pity Toney if we play the same system against Germany.

Larry,

Some interesting stuff there, Larry. Re the Geen New Deal, I won't mind if you don't credit me when you use this strange quote from a prominent Trade Union leader in your next book:

"The big winners from renewables have been the wealthy and big corporate interests. Invariably the only jobs that are created when wind farms get put up, particularly onshore wind, have been jobs in public relations and jobs for lawyers." ( – and not the working class)

No doubt you'll provide a balanced analysis of this complex dynamic, much as you did with your critique of Searchlight:

"Without doubt there are matters on which Searchlight is usually reliable — election results, court cases, as well as the occasional publication of primary source documents. Outline sketches of individual careers are of rather more mixed reliability. And when it comes to actual interpretation of the significance of events on the far Right, Searchlight is often very questionable indeed."

I should probably take more notice of this Mail Online thing of which you speak. Its responsibility for controlling the Britsh democratic process – from forcing the Brexit result to destroying Jeremy Corbyn – suggests it might be worth a longer look.

In a mostly capitalist world, the UK needs a competitive business sector; without it, businesses fail, jobs are lost which leads usually leads to a recession.

The Conservative Party are pro-business while Labour are not, that's a crude analogy but largely true.

As far as democracy is concerned, communism doesn't appear to work well but neither does our flawed democracy, although its the best of the two choices.

Michael (289) ,flattered you have read my work on Searchlight. I agree McD a late convert but even Damascene conversions welcome.

Trade Unions and the Green New Deal a complex issue, I agree. My critique of McDonnell doesn't give him a free pass I can assure you… I just defended him here because Corbyn definitely a dullard; McDonnell anything but.

I'd agree with that Corbyn - McDonnell comparison, Larry.

I never had the seeming benefits of a Trade Union. I could voice concern or complaint but it was simply "Dry your eyes, Princess, turn to the right and march on"!!

Agree, Brian. English centre-backs are generally not comfortable with 3 at the back. Funny though because one that could is Coady. But then it unsettles the balance. Maguire (expensive Michael Keane) can't fit that system.

England looked void of creativity and ideas. Great finish by the Italian, even if the defender stood off to give him time and space. Although you could argue the forward created it.

Interesting point about Foden and the Number 10 position. I keep saying the same thing about Anthony Gordon.

Raymond, it's largely untrue actually. The Blair/Brown government was economically liberal, which partly contributed to the lack of robust regulation of the banking sector.

If the Tories are pro-business, why has growth been so sluggish for the last decade and both inward investment and exports decreased since Brexit?

Almost two-thirds of the 2022-23 personal tax cut gains announced in the budget will go to the richest fifth of households. Levelling down – it was ever thus.

Those Al-Whada fans must be screaming now they are allegedly going to be signing another South American, Everton reject.

A report on the Red Echo website is now saying that Allan is close to agreeing a deal to join their club.

Corbyn's major issue was that he came within an ace of beating May in 2017. From that point, he was deemed dangerous by the Tory party and particularly their mouthpieces that make up 80% of the popular press. And they tore him to pieces, aided and abetted by the man himself. His other main issue was that he was no sort of a leader and seemed as thick as a brick.

Starmer saw all that and got a little taste of that over ‘beergate', when the Mail campaigned on its front page for 13 consecutive days (I think) to pressurise the police into charging him, and to create some equivalence between that and what that gobshite in Downing Street presided over.

I suspect that has influenced his overly cautious approach, and his attempts to remove any reason to attack him. His main task was to make Labour electable again, no mean feat with an 80-seat majority against him, half of which was former Labour seats, voting against Corbyn among other things.

I wonder how those Tory 40 MPs are feeling today.

Danny #287

In 2017 Corbyn increased the Labour vote by more than any leader since Attlee in 1945. This was despite a massive smear campaign in the media and some of his own MPs and officials working to undermine him.

Steve #293

The Tories always opposed any Blair - Brown attempts to regulate the banking sector.

Michael #289

The Mail Online is also a good soft porn site (so I'm told).

Chris #286

Stalin trained to be a priest, too!

In the news today it appears Truss had her 𧻃.50 Norwich season ticket paid for (amongst lots of other expensive stuff) by the Foreign Office, ie, the taxpayer.

I didn't watch the England game but was just glad Coady didn't start. Southgate seems a nice guy but is a very limited football manager.

England looked devoid of ideas. With a team containing Sterling, Kane, Foden and Bellingham, how can that happen? They definitely looked a lot more comfortable when they went 4 at the back with Shaw coming on.

England need a good overhaul now. Maybe they will do okay at the World Cup but Itay looked like a team, whereas England looked like a group of fellas thrown together 10 minutes before kick-off.

Who England will turn to after the World Cup is anyone's guess. They have talent: Sancho, Bellingham, Foden, James, Rice, Phillips and more.

They need a character to manage them, they get coached at their clubs, a few days here and there with England you can't have much impact. It's about making a team spirit, get them playing for each other like Venables or Robson did.

Who... I have no idea – but hands off our Frank!!

Bill,

I think he may have taught at our school then. He'd have fitted in well, and learned a bit about brutality.

Anyone still uncertain that the Daily Mail is a Tory serving rag, and only that, must be living in la-la land.

On the 19th of July this year, the editor prominently published a lengthy dismembering of Penny Maudant, an MP in the initial stages of the bid to become PM, whose views are not extreme right wing, unlike the surgical appliance now inside No 10.

One month later, the editor stated in his editorial that Tory-on-Tory attacks were wholly unacceptable if Starmer was to be kept at bay. He told his large, gullible, Brexit-supporting readership that the country will never vote for a party divided.

I hope, for once, the last bit is true.

Chris #298

I went to state school so missed the real brutality my mates told me about in RC schools, and that was just the nuns.

David #297

I don't understand the current obsession with playing three at the back. Our players just don't seem comfortable with it. When, by necessity, Lampard had to revert to a back four, performances immediately improved.

It reminds me of the old Dixie Dean tale of when he emerged from the pub across the road, at 2:40, and arrived in time to see the secretary/manager busy moving billiard balls etc around his desk explaining the tactics he wanted the team to play.

Dean swept them all off the desk and said, "Just put the effin ball on my head." He scored a hat trick!

Football is basically a simple game. Coaches and managers over-complicate it.

Corbyn didn't win an election because the foreign domiciled billionaire owners of the right wing press Daily Mail, Daily Express, Daily Telegraph, The Times, The S*n etc convinced the unquestioning British public he was a bad option when in reality (apart from his stance on Brexit) he would have been the right choice.

I would like a government that looks after the general population not one that looks after the rich. A part socialist government (with a small 's') where the railways and energy are nationalised. A meritocracy where everyone has an equal chance to succeed.

I second read the 2017 comment Bill. I believe he suffered the biggest defeat since Neil Kinnock?

Andrew, he lost because not enough people across the country were convinced by him. It's a national election, not a regional or local one.

It goes back to what I've been trying to say but maybe not getting it across too well. The UK is generally a moderate country that likes stability. The more to the centre both of the main parties are, the better chance they have of governing. Note governing. They govern, they don't rule.

I've just seen an update on the Italy situation. 74 years as a Republic. About to enter into their 68th Government. Now there's stability for you!!

Forza La Republica.

Bill @300.

Exactly. How can an England manager, Southgate or others try to teach players who are managed by the best managers in the world every day???

Southgate can't teach them anything in a couple of days.
Pick a system, get the players who play well, week-in & week-out in that system, and tell them to do what they do every week.

They are picked for what they do every week rather than being asked to do something else for England.

Southgate has got to a final and a semifinal in his two last major tournaments, and I wouldn't bet against England going far in Qatar.

David @303, do you think that is because we don't have a grass roots system where players are coached from a young age?

Other nations don't seem to have the same issue and their players tend to be scattered further and farther than England's.

Tony,

I think we will go out in the first round in Qatar for two reasons and neither have anything to do with Southgate.

Firstly, any time we seem to play USA in the World Cup that tournament ends badly, Iran are pretty good (just beat Uruguay), and the "derby" v Wales is one where anything could happen.

Secondly, any time England are good (which isn't often) we seem to turn crap rapidly. Happened in the 70s after 1966 and semis in 1968, happened in the 2000s after two semis in the 90s.

Maybe the players get arrogant or teams figure us out? I don't know but I see an empty chair where England once sat coming into Round 2 of the World Cup.

Danny # 302 Have a 3rd read!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40219339.amp

The so-called Red Wall seats were lost because many voters are downright thick. In one TV vox pop from Yorkshire, one women said Labour had never done anything for her town and, as an example, said that when the Tories got in they only had two food banks but now they had dozens.

The goalposts have been moved so far since Thatcher that the old far right is now the centre.

Capitalism finally died in 2008. What we now have is socialism for big business and banking and the taxpayer being milked dry to pay for it, with public services going to the wall.

After 12 years of Toryism, the country is on its knees yet people are so brainwashed they still think the Tories are better at handling the economy.

Kieran, if you'd seen the USA play Japan yesterday, you'd be a whole lot more confident in England's progression.

We sucked! Zero shots on goal.

Bill,

"as an example, said that when the Tories got in they only had two food banks but now they had dozens."

That made me laugh darkly. What a world we live in with thick people. My sister taught at a school in Rochdale. Most of the kids came from three generations of being unemployed but they were Tories. Go figure.

The problem is actually quite simple.

We may have the most money-filled top division in the whole of Europe but all the players who make a difference and turn clubs into some of the best in Europe are not English.

I think it was in the 60s or 70s – I can't remember when – but Italy did really badly and Serie A put a ban on overseas players.

Now we are no longer in the EU, we can do what we like and we should insist on every Premier League club play at least 6 Englishmen (or United Kingdom) in each starting 11 and with at least 5 more on the bench.

Might take a few years but could give the England manager the players needed.

And credit to some of the younger players for going overseas, but where are the top English players in their mid-20s who get signed by an overseas club? Bale... and erm... Chris Waddle, David Platt and Kevin Keegan and Ian Rush.

Mike,

The thing is that, right now, the USA have decent players but are underperforming.

Yet, even when you had amateurs and England were "the best in the world" you still beat us in 1950.

Phil,

One issue with going overseas is money. Even the worst Premier Leaague teams pay a lot more than all the European clubs bar a handful (Bayern, Real, PSG).

Hamburg or Bari could never attract a Keegan or Platt these days because of the financials. The only ones who can are the likes of Dortmund who sign kids who aren't rich yet and like the idea of an easier path to the first team.

Kieran #306,

I thought we were very fortunate in getting to the 1966 World Cup final – let alone in actually beating West Germany. There were many far better sides, one of which, Hungary, we saw at Goodison.

Unfortunately, as Holland found in '74 and '78, the best sides don't always win.

I thought the 1970 England side was much better but they were undone by poor substitutions by Ramsey.

Kieran #311, yep, that's one of the best games I ever watched.

Did you know three of our players, including the goalscorer, weren't even US citizens?

Bill,

I thought we were lucky to reach the semi-final in 1990 although legend has it that it was all because of the brilliant idea of introducing Mark Wright as a sweeper versus Egypt. Even that was contentious.

I saw a documentary where Don Howe said after the second dour draw that he went to Bobby Robson and suggested switching to a sweeper system. This was followed by an interview with Lineker and Waddle who claim they came up with the idea and convinced Robson. Then they interviewed Robson himself who claims the idea was all his and came to him during the middle of the night.

I also read that, in 1996, after two dour performances, Venables wanted to set his stall out and try and contain The Netherlands. Sheringham claims he and the other players said "Bollocks to that" and defied his orders and went on the offensive – which is why we thrashed them 4-1.

Bill, that was a very good Hungarian side.

And we saw some great games at Goodison Park. And some nasty fouling.

Bill @313.

Plus the alleged skullduggery: Gordon Banks coming down with food poisoning before the West Germany game and so we had to rely on the hopeless Bonetti as our Gordon West's wife put the blocks on him going the tournament. Very Everton that, being two-nil up.

Bill #313,

I think, at Goodison in 1966, we were lucky to get at least 3 of the best teams in the World Cup including some of the best players and games, for example, when Portugal played North Korea. If them games were played at today's standards of refereeing, they would have run out of red cards.

Tony @304.

Southgate has done a good job but he's not done anything spectacular. We are England. The players at his disposal are far superior imo to some of the teams that regularly reach finals and semi-finals.

Look at Italy. Man for man, when best players are available, our squad is far superior imo. Yet Italy looked liked so much more of a team – even in the Euros.

I'd say we probably have the best group of players to choose from in Europe. Yet we struggle to have a team spirit, a cohesive way of playing, where if a couple of players are missing we have to change it all up.

It's either the players who can't motivate themselves to play the way they do for their clubs, or the coaches who can't get them to play how they do, week-in & week-out.

Danny @305

It's not a grass roots thing, mate, these players play in Champions League Finals and win Premier Leagues trophies. t's a motivation issue, IMO.

Look at the 1996 Euros, the team were not the best but they were playing for each other. With England, you have the quality; it's about a manger creating an atmosphere where they play for each other.

The players to win a tournament are there, imo.

What a lovely goal scored by Iwobi for Nigeria. That's his next step for us.

The best coaches change their personnel on the pitch or alter formations when they are losing or the game isn't going as planned.

Southgate just stands there with his hands in his pockets. He has had 2 really good squads to take to consecutive tournaments – had the easiest routes to the final in both tournaments that I can remember any previous England manager has had, and still lost. Bit like Martinez with Belgium, he's had his chance.

Nice fella etc, but not up to it when it matters. This will be the tournament when it goes badly wrong for him and he will be destroyed for it, which will be unfair – but top-level sport has never been fair.

England are not helped by the Premier League at all – too many foreign players and coaches which squeezes the talent pool of available British players.

I also believe continental players' touch, vision and pass weight is far, far superior to our lads – the coaching of children has to change in this country and be based on technique, agility, movement and softer feet, better feel for a football – not glorying in unfair leagues with 15-0 scorelines being accepted.

Grassroots is still entirely voluntary, amateur clubs only interested in as many teams as possible to maximise earning potential – there is never a review of standards, very few clubs have an ethos of conduct, playing philosophy, training schedules or format.

Coach Mentoring is frowned upon (I am one) because the system is not inclusive, so 30 or 40 junior teams in any amateur club are all being taught differently and, in a lot of cases, poorly.

I am not slagging off the volunteers here, but most of the errors I see in mentoring are about training area, size, equipment, discipline and a lack of simplicity in coaching kids. With help and rectified early, these kids start off on the right path, are very disciplined, calm, assured, happy, and can control a ball with both feet!!

Because of the strategies (or lack of) at the clubs, mentors are perceived as almost "football police" and coaches view them as trouble, and think they don't require help or advice from anyone, so they miss out on crucial help and guidance at pivotal times in their coaching – and players suffer for it.

I am told that grassroots is so far removed from The Premier League that it's impossible to make any headway – however, all footballers start in grassroots, so regardless of natural talent, why do we insult the lesser naturally talented by putting on rubbish sessions by uneducated coaches who can't be bothered to improve themselves?

We can all learn from helping each other – football included.

Hi all, out of curiosity I googled 'Tofeeweb Rules' and of the11 rules, the most interesting were numbers, 1,2,3,4,6,7, and 8. It would appear that at one time or another we have all be treading on thin ice.

JMS, the "rules" should ideally be guidelines and warnings given when the guidelines aren't adhered to. Banning posters and deleting posts without saying why is totally negative for a thriving site. We all say something out of line in somebody's opinion now and again.

John Snr. I've had posts deleted from certain threads in the past. I've read previous posts from you where you have had posts removed.

I come for the Everton news and debate but inevitably the debate strays into other areas. I personally love that aspect of ToffeeWeb and fan-led media.

You can start on a thread about Calver-Lewin having a scan on an injured leg, then end up talking about Third World poverty, geopolitics & human rights.

Is that a bad thing? I get it's a football site. Problems in football inevitably spread out to society. Be it racism, homophobia, violence, "ageism" – these are not topics focused football but affect football.

Just like it's not a football issue to "cure" homophobia or racism. It's a society issue. Sites like ToffeeWeb let us bash out the issues, so we can see other people's point of veiw.
We don't all agree, but how boring would that be if we did?

Phil #310,

Scottish clubs started signing cheaper Scandinavian players around 20 or 30 years ago and it had the effect of blocking their homegrown players and they've never really recovered.

Brent #316,

I remember the Hungarian Albert was playing as a sort of deep-lying centre-forward and he was absolutely brilliant. We saw some of the best players in the world including Eusebio, Pele and the Germans Beckenbauer and Seeler who has only recently died. Would you believe it but Seeler had family in Wigan? I worked with one of his Wigan nieces.

Bill #318 Pele was simply hacked to bits. I think he lasted about 20 mins before hobbling off.

Congratulation to Saints, who have just won the RL Grand Final for a record 4th consecutive time.

Hi David, [324] I was concentrating on rules 3 and 4.

[3] You acknowledge that you share with others an equal right to comment on anything Everton-related without prejudice, provided you do it respectfully and without abusing other contributor or its editors.

[4] You agree not to denigrate other website contributors, no matter how much you may disagree with their freely expressed views and opinion.

David @324,

Yes, I think that's right. I have frequently made an ass of myself on here and continue to do so. So do others. But that is as it should be and I like Mike Gaynes' pub analogy.

Some places you walk into and know that it's going to be "bracing", the company and the beer. If you all politely nod at each other and have a half of mild, you're in a different place altogether.

Do we want a nodding pub? Surely not.

"without abusing. its editors."

Fuck! is that really in the rules?

Right... time for some belated retrospective action!!!

John #326

I think there's an issue when a moderator appears to be doing just that!

Strong shout to call people (voters) 'thick'. Bill. Definitely influenced by media but I guess that's always been the case. It's just more so now and more in your face 24 hours a day being constantly told how bad things are.

But to your point, and my repeated one, that's why it's important to look and study at what you're actually voting for if you're going to vote. And, in a democratic system, accepting you inevitably won't always be on the winning side.

David, I'm with Allan @321. It is totally a grass roots issue. I've stood in Allan's position listening to absolute rubbish being spouted from so-called coaches only interested in winning an Under-12s trophy probably more for their own ego and appeasing pushy parents rather than wanting young players. The end state is that, as a nation, we don't produce players of sufficient quality at scale. We get one-offs.

That's why we fail continuously at international level and other European nations have out-performed us. They have systems that feed the pyramid from the bottom up. We don't. Lack of investment in pitches, admirable volunteers but many who can't coach.

I took time this morning to briefly observe a "session" on the local park when out with the young dog (she goes later than the boy). The warm-up started with a run to a tree and back whilst the "coaches" stood around talking and smoking. I walked away after about 30 seconds, shaking my head.

Not that England or international football bothers me, but until we build from foundations and the ground up, we will continue to be frustrated and leave hopes in the hands of striking lucky with a group of players happening to come through by chance rather than planning. No longevity, just winning the lottery mentality.

After the last several years, we Evertonians should know that more than most.

Foundations. Strategy. Plan. Build. Sustain.

Final two-point question and conundrum.

Do English players not get a chance because there are too many foreign players?

Or do clubs feel the need to go to the foreign market for better value (financial & quality) because the English system isn't producing?

Allan #321. This morning, my 6-year-old grandson volunteered to play in goal for his team's second-ever game. He did well, but conceded 8. He was heartbroken, despite the manager having the wisdom to award him MotM.

The other grandson, aged 8, playing in a team that has been developing nicely, lost 15-0. What does that do to them?

The 2 teams have an excellent philosophy of respect, teamwork, passing, turning up for training, and having fun.

Thanks for your post, it's excellent.

To be serious for a moment, we created this website because our main interest is following Everton, tracking news about Everton, everything about Everton Players, watching Everton games, talking about Everton issues, replaying Everton History, the operation of Everton FC Co Ltd as a Business... Hopefully you get the picture.

The increasing problem we seem to be having is that a number of posters are drifting away from this strongly Everton-related purpose, as in the club, to make it more Everton-spectator-related and talking more about themselves or going off-topic.

We have made a number of additions over the years in an effort to cater for this: Ticket and Travel posts for upcoming games being an obvious supporter-focussed example, and Premier League threads for comments on other games not involving Everton. And when people like Derek Knox make the incredible effort to set up things the TW Golf Day or Get-together, we fully support that and provide dedicated threads.

And that's the point: we want dedicated threads that largely stay on topic. We think most people want this too.

Whilst some drifting off-topic is to an extent only to be expected in a social media context, there is a concern that too many threads are at risk of being hijacked and led astray by a stream of off-topic posts, many from people who seem to treat the ToffeeWeb comment threads like a WhatsApp group where they can blather on about whatever moves them. These conversations can then take over the thread.

While this might be fun or cathartic for the posters involved, we believe it may become irritating for the majority who can feel they do not belong. It's inclusive and exclusive at one and the same time, boring for the vast majority who are not involved or do not care, and maddening when it diverts from Everton-related issues under discussion.

Bear in mind that we do get a large number of page views and logins where people only read the content but do not (for whatever reason) participate in the discussions. We may be wrong but we suspect these readers may be less inclined to wade through long threads that go way off-topic.

So this ToffeeHouse Chatroom thread was the latest idea to try and deal with this issue, especially at periods like this when there are no Everton games and little Everton news. The idea is that we would move random off-topic posts here rather than deleting them, and that we could start new threads for more popular topics raised that we may have missed.

So, before assuming your posts have been deleted, please consider that they were deemed off-topic and have been moved. Sorry, but it's not practical for us to notify each poster in turn, although we will try to add notes as appropriate if new threads have been created.

How promising is Halid Djankpata who has been training with the first team, apparently? To my embarrassment, I've never heard of him.

Michael #332, fair comment, and thank you for the “Chatroom” opportunity.

I acknowledge that I am one of those who can go off-topic quite easily.

Michael,
Thanks for that explanation.

I do think it's just the one game in however many weeks that's got us all bored. Coupled with the changes we've seen recently that's got people talking.

I can't wait for 1 game a week again.
Oh World Cup coming.

Tony @327, I like the pub descriptions of ToffeeWeb. Love the Kevin Bridges joke where he says:

"If Facebook was a boozer and you and your mates walked in, you'd say nah it's full of bell ends, let's go somewhere else."

If ToffeeWeb was a boozer it would be a belter, even if a bit rowdy at times.

Michael, this chatroom thing is a good idea but do you not think that your Pure Everton boundaries are a dilution rather than - in a way you fail to define - an enrichment?

If we all have to check whether there is enough "Everton Content" in posts then that will be, I suggest, an unnecessary containment; you will restrict spontaneity and fluidity and will lose something important about this site, something which sets it apart from the one-dimensional nature of other club sites.

Why should the trembling ones on the margin of TW be put off by comments which are not strictly about team issues?

You're a twitchy, arbitrary policeman.

I like the fact you give people the opportunity to debate wider issues, Michael, and appropriately set up different pages to divert conversations.

It's both healthy and educational talking about wider issues, both football and non-football.

I think I said earlier, the sooner 1st October comes around, the better. Then we can talk Everton. See you at Southampton. In person or virtually on here.

@Peter Mills, I'm terrible for going off topic, but I think I'm getting better.

David West has just reminded me there is a World Cup coming up. We're going to need a Great Escape type Cooler Room on here. I've got my ball.

I can't honestly say I'm at kids league games at grass roots level much. I appreciate the argument that it should be about development more than winning titles at that level; however, England do produce players.

It's not like we don't have top-level players, we do, I know the Premier League is filled with foreign players but we are producing players.

Kane is probably going to beat Rooney's England goal record. Bellingham is 3rd youngest England player and looks class. Sterling, Stones, Walker, Foden, Grealish – these are not poor players.

It's how they are brought together in the England set-up that something isn't right imo. I don't have the answers, but I believe a good management team could do better than Southgate has, even though he's done good.

Michael 332#

Thank you for the clarification and as often a culprit in adding to off topic comments, I would point to my earlier post at 135 in response.

You are trying to herd cats if you believe posts will only ever stay on thread, it is also the recollections, young and old, of club supporters that add richness to the site. Of course we all like to comment on theme on threads but threads develop off initial topics when they run out of steam, as they all do.

We are all Evertonians, we all like ToffeeWeb that's why we are here, as supporters we are part of Everton too, not just the physical club. The battle you have is to keep the content current to attract debate.

The job you and Lyndon do is fantastic, because it gives us news and views on all things Everton and football, posters add to the news and spark debate. Going off-topic is a natural effect as posters unpack threads and tangents form, and run their course.

The ToffeeWeb chatroom is a good initiative and will divert a great deal of "other' off-topic thoughts, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water, for it's the variety of posts that also help make the site what it is, brilliant.

You make a really good point though, David. We can produce players. We just don't have a strategy or a system to maximise the potential. Not in the way the Germans or Italians have.

It's a bit like Everton. We keep blaming manager after manager. But the problem is more deep-rooted in my opinion.

To counter my point and agree with you in some respect, I'm a massive fan of the Dutch coaching philosophy, but even they are masters of producing individuals. They've probably produced some of the best individual footballers we've seen.

But they rarely gel as a national team.

Harsh on a nation that has punched above its weight in terms of population size.

Simple fact (in my simple head), is that England, with it's over 66M population and talent pool, can do and should do much better.

But it starts at fixing grass roots and having a system. Not hoping for the odd gem or two to come along and hoping several of them come along at the same time. Remember the so-called golden generation?

1966 and still waiting for England supporters. Meanwhile, Germany has 4 stars and a few Euros under their belt. Italy has racked up a few. Spain has surpassed England.

From someone who doesn't support England, I just care for football in this country.

Steve (293),

Yes the big misunderstanding is that the Tories believe competition ultimately solves everything. The Tories want as little regulation as they think they can get away with because they believe they are amongst the creme de la creme who will always end up on top.

There is an ideal of equal opportunity for all which just isn't real life. The Tories are now promising high-wage jobs for everyone! How can anyone fall for that clap-trap?

Unless you regulate to prevent it, capitalism can only give you extremes. Great if you think you are bound to be one of the rich, terrible if you end up one of life's unfortunates and a whole range of relative states in between.

The ridiculous extremes and the lack of any real trickle-down effect are clear to see in football. Careful regulation is necessary in human society to avoid monopolisation and embedded elites.

Michael Kenrick [332] your intentions are admirable, but you seem to have avoided the points I submitted in my post of [326] concerning the disrespect and abuse of fellow contributors.

As good as the site is, I feel it would be so much better if the rules of 3 and 4 were observed. I also think that I'm not the only one to feel this way, but then again maybe I am, because I have in the past been referred to as a "Snowflake" it could be that I have passed my 'sell by date'.

Before this gets into another back-and-forth, John (343) has a point – the sly digs and sarcasm aimed at him and at least one of his contemporaries from you, yourself, Michael plays into the "...page views and logins where people only read the content but do not (for whatever reason) participate in the discussions."

I know from personal experience and from offline conversations that people have either left the site or don't comment for this reason and we've lost a couple regulars this week alone because they're disillusioned by a senior figure on the website team seemingly flouting the site's own rules/codes of conduct.

I'm hoping to put measures in place in the coming weeks that will allow members to filter out comments that we deem to be off-topic but in the meantime, if we could treat each other like the family we're supposed to be and members of a like-minded community that revolves Everton, and show each other respect accordingly, I for one would very much appreciate it!

Thank you, Lyndon. I'll reiterate, what you and Michael offer in terms of this forum is outstanding. You let the conversation flow, even when not Everton-related, and step in where appropriate. It is without doubt the best footballing / supporter website in my opinion.

No-one should suffer abuse.

But I'll also say that if we put our opinions on here, be prepared to have them shot down. It's a discussion we'd have in the pub quite happily as others have said.

We can all agree to agree and agree to disagree. And remain friends and Evertonians at the same time.

I'll use a classic stereotypical example at my own wedding. My cousins (two brothers) carrying out the Scouse wedding fight outside the pub. My best mate and best man doing the honourable thing and stepping in to calm the situation.

"Don't you start on my brother" was the reaction from one of the cousins.

Okay the language was a bit more colourful than that. My poor mate got floored for his honourable actions.

All 3 ended up having a drink together and remained friends for years after.

Don't get personal. Don't take it personally. Keep it respectful.

Allan @321, fifth paragraph, perfect description.

I have written about this before, but many years ago, 1984-85, the English FA decided they were going to do something about this and started a National School of Excellence, which was going to concentrate on these aspects of the game.

They said they were going to move away from big and strong, and were going to get the best young technical players in this country, move them away from home, and school them in football every day, whilst also concentrating on their education.

I was reading Carragher's book (got to about page 40 before I'd had enough) and I wasn't aware that he went to this National School. Anyway, whilst reading, he said that during one training session, this no-nonsense coach from Yorkshire, stopped the session and told Joe Cole that he wouldn't be having any of those “Cruyff turns” during his session, or words to that effect… 🤷‍♂️

Carragher went to this school, so did John Ebbrell. Although I'm aware of how hard it is to become a Premier League footballer and they both deserve massive credit for achieving this goal, when watching either, would you think that they had been coached for years in the technical aspects of football?

I'm not knocking anyone who has gone out and got their coaching badges, but it's just a ticket for many, and doesn't mean they have got a proper understanding of football, imo.

Tony@336, give Michael a break mate. It's impossible to not drift away from the football, especially for us boring baskets, but he's just trying to explain a few things, and I also think he likes talking about other things himself sometimes, especially when Everton have been shite.

My own view is that moving posts from one page to another might also stop people posting. I thought the thread after last weeks game about booing the minute's silence, was appalling, but before I posted this, I saw that I already had three posts on this thread, which had been moved from the match day discussion, and I felt if I had then attacked Michael's thoughts, I would have looked like a schizophrenic, considering this? (I Know!)

I have learned whilst reading on ToffeeWeb about many different things, and one of them is when Danny often talks about grass roots football.

There is a plan in place, Danny, and it's a very sad plan. Sickening even, depending on what sickens, because it's all about trying to sort the wheat from the chaff for these professional clubs, and this process is what sickens, because they start doing this when the kids are 7 and 8 years old.

They take away the best kids, which instantly lowers the standards for everyone else (my argument might not be able to be backed up because, once kids go to an academy at 6 or 7, one parent usually forms a team, getting all the best players into one team, because they can't sign for any club until they are 8!) and then everyone else gets on with it.

A lot of the best kids at 8 might not have developed the way the clubs except them to by 10 (sickening, again) and they are released back into grass roots, which is already an alien concept for many of these still very, very young children, whose unfortunate parents no longer have those stars in their eyes.

Learning technique doesn't come into it (imo) because, whilst it looks impressive when you read that a certain first-team player has been with the academy since he was 8, it always gets me thinking, “and they can still only kick with one foot?”

My own personal view is that these clubs shouldn't be able to take any kid until they at least reach senior school, and I bet you that many people who have played the game to a decent level would have a very similar view, including people who are currently employed in this system.

Health warning - epic ahead.

I took a couple of FA coaching courses.

Level 1; useless. Confirms you can organise a session and aren't going to harm kids. Honestly, anyone who hasn't kicked a football their entire life can pass it. Tick-the-box exercise for however much it costs. Results in people who can't teach kids to kick a football being in charge of a team. Like an English Teacher who can't spell but can arrange a lesson.

Level 2; a bit more technical and you actually have to coach sessions with people who can play.

But I stopped then with the badges as it was all still a tick-the -box. It wasn't teaching me anything I hadn't learned from playing the game or from those I was playing with and coaching with at the time.

Sorry to sound like a dinosaur, but most of what I applied was from experience or from those around me.

Tony, it is sad. Clubs literally hoover up potential talent at a very young age. Starry-eyed parents living their own dream are only too willing to comply. The clubs then spit them out around the age of 16-18. The kids (they're still kids) are disillusioned and quit football. We waste talent because of our system – or lack of.

I know I've mentioned before, but I was fortunate enough to play in Germany as a young kid. Taken aside for individual coaching, looked after and told to enjoy my football.

I think that's a big problem for us. The kids aren't encouraged to enjoy football or make mistakes. And rarely do I see individual coaching taking place.

Also, and I don't know if this is still the case or was common, but as I've mentioned before, the local, then Bundesliga team, Bayer Uerdingen's youth teams used to play in the local leagues. Not locked behind the closed gates of academies.

Simple example. One of my players once cleared a ball with his right foot in the left corner of our defending end, giving away a corner, which resulted in conceding a goal that meant defeat. I didn't shout. I took him aside and explained that if he had the confidence to even peg it with his left foot, it's a throw-in and we defend it easier. He took that on board and started using his left much more often and I helped him do that with one-to-one left foot only sessions.

With kids, with football, it's often best keeping it simple in my opinion. I was dismayed when I watch my lad's first 11-a-side training session and the coaches (they weren't really) had them lined up trying to take them through the offside rule from a defensive perspective. They hadn't even kicked a ball on a full-size pitch yet.

Let them play football. Let them enjoy football. Focus on developing technical ability, not drumming into them from a young age to be fearful of making tactical mistakes.

We mortals are left with the best of the rest and try to shape them both as footballers and individuals. Believe me, I had some pretty robust conversations with lads from all kinds of ethnic and social backgrounds in West London to coach them football, but also teach them in life. I think they must have thought this bloke from Liverpool was crazy. But I still bump into them now as adults and they are pleased to see me, so I guess I done something right!!

Keep them out of the academies until at least 14 years old. Let them grow in their natural environments. Have clubs like Everton send coaches into the community and help coach local clubs. But leave kids to enjoy their football rather than have pressure from 7 or 8 years old.

Apologies. Those who read what I write or know me will understand how I get passionate about this and could talk all night!!

Tony 350.

Good point about clubs taking the best kids out of grass roots. Shouldn't it still be a game for 7-, 8-, 9-year-olds? Are they sucking the fun out of it for them? Kids scared to express themselves for fear of not doing what they're told?

As I say, I'm no coach or expert on grass roots but if you take all the best players out of any league or age group, you inevitably weaken the competition.

Imo the point I was originally trying to make was England have enough good players at the moment and over last few years to win a tournament. I just don't think the management maximised the potential in the sqaud.

Danny 351,

Very interesting how you asses the Level 1 and 2 coaching badges.

I used to run a couple of amateur teams and we were lucky to win a couple of leagues and cups, but not at the level you used to coach at.

I did think about doing my badges as I had really dodgy knees so starting doing a bit of management at 19, which made me a few years younger than the players I was coaching. But I got the feeling talking to a couple of guys who later went and did their badges they felt like you – it was very much a box-ticking exercise.

Then of course nowadays, if you were good enough to apply for your A and B badges, it cost thousands I believe which takes it well out of the sphere of a working man.

I have always thought you shouldn't coach kids too much under the age of 14, let them play but definitely work on basic ball control and passing. Too often, youngsters are encouraged by well-meaning coaches of amateur teams to get rid, instead of coaching them to be comfortable with the ball at their feet.

I think Premier League clubs should be scouting the World to get the best coaches to coach their younger teams.

We were lucky we had not only the best coach any young player could have when Colin Harvey was the youth team coach. But he was so good he had the same impact when Howard appointed him to first-team coach.

Coaches of Colin's ability are very rare. I think what a brilliant DoF he would have made after he left the managerial role. He could have put all that brilliant coaching ability to benefit Everton for many years.

The easiest and best way to learn about football is to play the game as often as you can. The younger you start, the quicker you will learn, and the simple reason for that is you will be enjoying playing.

I loved playing football from the age of 6 upwards on the hollers (waste grounds), streets and tenements of Liverpool. I learned from playing with older kids and bits of advice from auld fellas watching us play.

Obviously there are good coaches who run local teams for the benefit of the kids who join. Tony, my son, was lucky enough to have such a coach, Eddie Hewitt. He formed a club full of local lads, all from the same area, at 9 and they stayed together until they were 15.

They won many trophies, but that wasn't the main aim, although a good bonus. The aim was to play good football, enjoy it, and play the game as much as possible in a fair way.

Much the same way as, 40 years later, Peter Mills's grandsons and their teams seem to be doing. They won't go far wrong there, Peter, especially with you guiding them as well.

Dave, I'll show them your post, maybe they'll start listening to me!

I've heard TW referred to as Sergeant Peppers and it's easy to see why.

I don't know the exact figures, but to me, it seems that at least half of the comments come from the same small group of people. They don't seem to have anywhere more important to be. They're here for long periods every day and they will discuss anything.

I prefer match day threads. They throw up all sorts of differing opinion from numerous posters and although opinion differs greatly. At least those who post have an idea of what they are talking about – although I'm still trying to figure out why a poor performance and a defeat will always attract more comment than a satisfying win.

I think the Toffeehouse chatroom is a great idea. It gives those who want to discuss other topics a little snug in which to gather and the sign over the door will let those who are not interested, the option to pass by.

This is the best Everton site by a mile. If only another room could be arranged for those who want to talk endlessly about themselves. An Alan Partridge bar.

COYFB

Peter (355), when I did a bit of scouting, whenever I sent lads down to Notts Forest, I always told them, apart from the piece about behaving and watching their manners, was always use their ears when being coached, listen and learn.

I don't think it did you much harm, Peter, listening to your dad, especially that last one you quoted: “Foundations are never very pretty to look at.” Brilliant!!

It is worth stating that Michael and Lyndon do run a fantastic website.

So much now of the internet, even football forums, is regulated, and you are always half a second from a warning for 'inappropriate comment'. I do appreciate the hands off attitude of the editors even if sometimes things can go too far.

I think that is a price worth paying as long as things don't descend into cliques or bullying, which does not seem to be the case. The latitude given by the editors to the users is a high wire act but I think it's one they pull off expertly.

I enjoy it when ToffeeWeb gets all introspective. Everyone behaves for a while and then it goes back to what it should be. Please never let it turn into an online pub with no beer.
There's a few pubs in my town that I would fear watching a game in. So, I don't go into them.

Tony #350 and Danny #351

I've been watching a Channel 4 programme called Academy which is a sort of fly on the wall documentary following the day to day activities at the Crystal Palace Academy.

The boys are under a huge, continuing, pressure to succeed to such an extent I think some of the boys are developing mental health issues. There doesn't seem any enjoyment; it's all work and improve, work and improve or you're out.

Personally, I found it distasteful and wouldn't want a child of mine to be under such pressure at such a young age.

Danny # 330.

The 'thick' comment is backed on the evidence of the election of the most incompetent, shambolic, government in my lifetime.

The Conservative Party is a triumph of marketing in that it successfully persuades millions of people to vote against their own best interests, not just once but over and over again.

Dave C (356):

"I don't know the exact figures, but to me, it seems that at least half of the comments come from the same small group of people... I prefer match day threads. They throw up all sorts of differing opinion from numerous posters and although opinion differs greatly."

I've been hearing this more and more and for months – years now, I suppose – I've been pondering how to change this. How to draw more of the silent majority into the threads and I suspect there are a number of reasons that have created a vicious circle in this respect.

I've watched a bit of academy football in recent years Bill, and it can become quite boring, watching football that seems to be more about the coaching staff, trying to get their kids to play a certain way, especially because a lot of the coaching seems to be coming from the exact same coaching manual, meaning their opponents are trying to do exactly the same thing.

Football has definitely moved on, but it's like a lot of players can't think for themselves sometimes, and I also felt like this when Croatia, started dismantling England, during that last World Cup semifinal, and when the Italians, started getting on top of England in the European final last summer.

England are producing loads of good players, but when it comes to playing a short game, in tight little areas in midfield, they are often found to be lacking that little bit of extra quality, that is needed. David W, is probably right about Southgate, (I think he his) but if we concentrated on what Alan says@321, paragraph five, in the early years of development, instead of winning being the most important thing, I genuinely believe that England would produce a lot more top players?

Lyndon, what about a dedicated thread asking any non-contributing readers why they read, why they don't contribute, what would help them to contribute (more)??

I think I fall into that category Lyndon, to the extent that I've felt myself boring myself, never mind others, and I was slowly pulling myself away from posting so much, although I've had a relapse this week.

The more people that write, the better the website should become, and this would definitely stop people getting fed up with each other, which seems to be happening in a few incidents lately?

Lyndon

To Brent's point a question to the silent majority might be what do you like on ToffeeWeb? Maybe they just read the articles and don't bother to read the comments?

I read a lot of news sites that have comments but, as I'm seeking information on those sites rather than discussion, I never bother to read the actual comments and have no idea if they have a lot of posters or few.

Dave 356,

I'm one of the guilty and I do have other important things to do that I avoid by procrastinating and posting on ToffeeWeb too much – lol.

I need to get my act together. I shall abstain from posting until the next match day and focus on my lengthy “to-do” list.

Perhaps a lot of people just don't want to contribute. There doesn't have to be a reason.

If it were not for those who come on here regularly – perhaps offending the sparkling analysts, with their fascinating lives, in the process – then traffic would be very slow indeed.

Stop navel-gazing. If you try to concentrate on match day threads or the like then watch your numbers slump. There is only so much to be said about the football.

I don't know if your numbers are down, Lyndon, but that may be due to wider reasons relating to the consumption of footy stuff.

Case in point the Southampton away ticket info meandered to the Yates wine lodge origins and was quickly done away with.

I guess I'm guilty too. I will try to refrain if it offends.

Brian Harrison, the coach badge thing is a bit of a cash cow in my opinion. I learned most of my knowledge through playing. I know that being a great player (I wasn't, by the way) doesn't transpire to being a great coach. But understanding the game and having played to a level helps.

Enjoy the game, Dave Abrahams. If you can't enjoy it, then it's not worth playing and you won't play to the best of your ability.

I'll seek out and watch that Palace documentary Bill - thanks for the tip.

I'll also watch my post count. Apologies.

I'll be both honest and ignorant here.

I don't watch many films and can't concentrate long enough to watch Lord of the Rings let alone read the book.

But yesterday as the family were watching one of the films, I realised that the Mordor phrase came from that story.

For decades, I just knew it as a word for a very bad place.

Every day is a school day as they say.

There's my random thought for the day.

Lyndon,

I really think people are grasping the wrong end of the stick when they start to look at posters and such. If you want more numbers and contributions from younger fans, you have to give them something to write about.

No-one yet has criticized content as being an issue, mainly because we get all the important stuff on a day-to-day basis, but the format of the site has remained basically the same since I first came on board some 17 years ago. The turnover of news and content can be slow but, in today's terms, there is a considerable amount of "old" news, articles and reports that can be weeks old given as much site space as new.

It lacks a crispy, sharper and daily almost singular focus. Few want to read yesterday's news, let alone last week's or last month's... after a week without comments, archive the front page.

Oldies like me will socialise but newbies want sharp, relevant only news and articles to bring them back. So the look and format has to appeal to them. Ask the people on here why they enjoy the site and it will be insular because they are comfortable with it already. Internal squabbles bore fresh blood, removing the reason they stay.

Years ago, I contributed a lot of articles which I no longer do, the reason in many respects was my own limitations to have the same appeal to the readers and increasingly I felt I was out of touch with what appealed. So I stopped writing and posted comments but that's pretty sterile too if it's purely a comment on a report without personal context.

It's led me to a point where I consider my views and input to the site have little relevance or impact. I am out of date. It's time for fresh impetus. I should leave the room.

But I have friends here, a lot of people and contributors I have never met but have chatted too, laughed with, argued with and debated with for many years. They have become virtual friends, links in themselves and I look for their comments and input. It's the site that has been responsible for that for which I am insanely thankful.

But it's a balance and I see a lot of posters out of step with others, even editors, are starting to walk away. Something I have seriously contemplated myself. I think it's been a wonderful site run by Michael and Lyndon, but the shop window has to change to get more people in the shop to buy.

Older stock like me should make way for new lines, keep a few quality items by all means but it's the best analogy I can think of!

Christine, don't walk away. From what I've read from your postings, its not in your DNA to do so.

Everton is an institution that is in our blood. My Uncle Jim who died a few years ago argued for Everton amongst his mainly red family and my young son made sure his name was put on the display screen at Goodison that Christmas.

His dog, Blue, was a typical free-roaming Speke dog and known to all the locals. Some would call stray, but those who know will know. Speke; dogs and kids!!! Blue always came home!

This site far betters I've seen. Get the younger generation on here? Yes. They are there, week-in, week-out at the match. Then again, I still think I'm young even though I've just tipped my the wrong side of my half-century!!

Christine @ 376,

I felt very upset when I read that post as I love reading your posts and you are like a crutch for me – as are posters like Danny, Kieran K, John Mc Snr, Mike G, and others. You all write what I think and wish that I could express myself as eloquently as you.

I was an editor of a police gossip newsletter for 8 years and had several of my articles printed in overseas national newspapers, such as The Daily Express and The New York Times; but always on a Police theme.

With Everton and football in general, I have to rely on my memory and Sky television, plus this Website to keep up to date with the news. I thank Lyndon and Michael very much and am so impressed in their knowledge and research they put in to keep ToffeeWeb so informative. I just wish Michael would be more considerate of people's feelings and be less sarcastic and hurtful.

I see Danny has already replied to you and I can only echo his words. Please, Christine, keep your posts coming, they are very interesting.

Folks on this site are of a rainbow of persuasions beyond the team (and site!) that keeps us together. That's a good thing in itself.

Long may it continue.

Don, don't let Gana hear you say that

Christine keep posting, lass. Your passion for Everton shines through your posts.

I don't get involved here as often as others but I do enjoy yours and Danny's passion about Everton. I enjoy the varying views on here but this site can become sterile at times.

I don't comment on individual political parties either in the UK or here in Ireland but I fundamentally believe that politicians everywhere hijack the good that is being done at voluntary level for their own good. It doesn't matter what their political persuasion is, they screw it up.

Young people will come to this site if they feel that their views will be respected, no matter how different they are. If the moderators believe that all comments are welcome, then they must encourage them to be on board. As long as the comments are respectful of others opinions then come on in.

Danny, I also coached at junior and senior levels for years. I couldn't believe what I came into at first. “Run, run, run –all fucking night” was drilled in to players, hence they got bored.

At every club I went to the first thing I made sure of was there was a football for every kid. I even bought them myself and told them to bring them home and enjoy. Players with footballs at their feet will enjoy any session.

I watch my 10-year-old every weekend but dismay at the coaching. two footballs between 15 to 16 players. Some things don't change.
Over here our coaching copies that in the UK. Old school football from shit former part time players.

Christine, that's the sort of quip that encourages more research from some readers.

Gudonya, as they say in some parts of Eastern Europe and all of Ozzie!!!

Far too much navel gazing over a footy forum get a grip, ffs

Barry #405 you've just made yet another observation about a football forum. Get a grip.

Christine #371

I really enjoy your football posts. Please stick around.

Danny #370,

"Every day is a school day, as they say". It certainly is; I've been on TW for a few years and have only just discovered it's a football site!

An educational institution, Bill!!

Sean, we could talk all day about it. Right down to warm-ups. My preference was to use ball work exercises once you get the fundamentals out of the way and the muscles are stretched / warmed. Use the ball to replicate what the players will be doing in the match.

It's just what I was brought up on.

I've been hearing this more and more and for months – years now, I suppose – I've been pondering how to change this. How to draw more of the silent majority into the threads and I suspect there are a number of reasons that have created a vicious circle in this respect.

Lyndon. My twopenneth (if it's even worth that) is that you're always going to get a small "hardcore" of contributors who are just the sort of people who WILL regularly comment while others prefer to just read.

One of the possible reasons for this is that in the near past, although not very recently, there was a small number of contributors who sought simply to argue and belittle other posters. They would constantly use defamatory language and it was obvious what their intentions were.

I know this put me right off even visiting let alone posting.

This seemed to turn TW into a negative, miserable, moaning experience which, especially with the world's problems, people can do without.

Maybe a lot of that was down to the position we found our beloved club in too.

With regard to getting younger contributors involved I have to say I think you're onto plums.

The younger generation "generally" want, and are used to, five second headlines, very few words communication, and instant and ever updating news.

That isn't TW and IMHO it should never be or try to be.

Different generations want different things and these days, again IMHO, the "gap" between generations has never been wider.

Personally I visit TW for all things Everton. I'm not interested in reading the posts of boring pains in the arse who seem to just want to show their superior knowledge on every other subject under the sun and use the site as their own personal soap box.

I have my missus for that. :-)

HaHa Lyndon. I don't think there is a solution, or that one is even needed.

Anyone visiting the pubs in and around Goodison on a matchday could be forgiven for thinking they are veritable gold mines. Not so. Match days are the only times the tills ring in these establishments. Many of them only open for a handful of regulars the rest of the time. TW is no different. There is bound to be a massive increase in traffic on an Everton website when Everton are actually playing.

For me, the most curious thing about TW is how often regulars threaten to leave or cut down on their posts only to carry on regardless. What is that about? You either leave or you don't. You either cut down or you don't.

A lot seems to revolve around the editor who seems to be getting it in the neck from several regulars for "attacking" an older poster. Yet for me, it is clear as daylight that the senior poster is playing a blinder by resurrecting old arguments and emphasising every point to his advantage. Respect your elders, of course, goes without saying, but don't under-estimate them. This little feud is no mismatch and certainly not one-way traffic.

On a footy note. How good was it to see our girls go over there and give their girls a serious beating last night?

The bar has been set for Frank and his boys!

Brian, understand completely, whilst I understand the generation gap what I cannot get my head around is the constant negativity from some posters who never, ever post positive expectations or reviews no matter what.

You see the names and you know what your going to get, so I usually skip but the less aware will read and suffer accordingly. I am not talking about a negative viewpoint but a constant diatribe on everything they post.

I don't think there is much abuse in terms of volume, but when it does happen its blatant and personal name-calling directed personally.

The rules of ToffeeWeb should be adhered to, perhaps even posters get shown a yellow card on their posts against their name on all their posts for a month... might stop some of it, or a red card for a 3- month ban?

Name and shame.

Dave 384 # interesting perspective, I assume you may be referring to posters like myself who have been regulars for a number of years.

For the record, I haven't threatened to go, I have considered leaving but understand completely that my views may no longer be of mainstream interest.

I get that, so consequently my activity has dropped off considerably. Still love the site and the banter but acknowledge it has to change.

Okay, I'll give my twopenneth too. I agree with Brian above. In the past, some threads have been appropriated by posters keen to pursue personal arguments, sometimes disparaging of others, such that many of the original points of debate have been drowned out.

A while back, a certain poster was renowned for this! Could this be resolved by providing individual posts with a “Reply” facility? I don't know the logistics / costs of such a modification, so maybe this isn't feasible?

Also, perfectly good articles get little or no response, not because they are unworthy of debate, but because they are buried somewhere on the site. An out-of-date thread can carry more prominence than a more recent one.

Quite often too, I wish to see if there has been a response to something I have posted but have forgotten which thread I commented on. Is a “Name Search” facility feasible for forgetful old gits like me?

Finally, belittling editorial responses are unwarranted. John McFarlane has been the target of such responses recently, though to his credit, he hasn't been put off posting!

At times the site does appear a bit “cliquey” with the only way to get noticed seemingly by posting regularly. That's not ToffeeWeb's fault, it's just the way of things. As is the negativity that sometimes pervades the site. It's just human nature I suppose.

However, the site is superbly informative, and the only Everton site that I visit. Despite my “reservations”, it's easily the best one around!

My take on this discussion is that TW's main audience is from age 40 upwards. Lyndon may have actual numbers. I'm not sure younger Evertonians would actually want to flock to this medium. Maybe for that generation it's Podcasts and shorter messaging Instagram type platforms, (How about Toffeegram!!)

But TW in its present form is, in my opinion, the right platform for its current audience. I value the contributions from John Mac, Christine, Dave, Bernie etc for their historical first-hand Everton knowledge. Something that would be impossible to come from anyone younger. Honestly guys, you should be cherished.

I enjoy George's groovy Saturday morning game day cosmic ramblings. I enjoy the regular contributors such as Tony and Danny and others. I loved Iwobi's biggest critic, Colin, eat humble pie and admit ‘'The boy's now doing good'!

Then there are letters from America. Mike, Jamie and others who share and articulate their mad passion for the blues. It amazes me how this happens to people not born in Liverpool and initiated to be Blue by their Dad. But it does and it's so genuine.

However, like many others on here, and I imagine the great silent majority Lyndon speaks of, I dislike personal abuse to other contributors, and more so if it comes from an editor, Why would any editor want to drive away popular and valuable contributors?

But thank you Lyndon, Michael and all its excellent contributors for making TW the unique community it is.

Ray #387

I'm always forgetting which thread a comment was on. There is a search facility towards the top right but it doesn't always work.

On my phone 'recent reader comments' can be quite useful as a thread link is provided under the comment. For some reason, this feature seldom appears on my laptop.

TW is unique in that a single thread can vary from Everton's appalling injury record to the relevance of a monarchy in 21st Century Britain, the 1966 World Cup, and then back to injuries.

The downside is that some can, and do, resort to personal abuse, a sure indication they can't think of anything sensible to say and have conceded the point.

For those who take time to view other supporters' forums, you'd appreciate the knowledge base of opinion on here.

Some take you back to those playground arguments. The view is generally one of my team is great, everyone else is shite. It is like viewing the opinion of a 6-year-old.

Great credit to Lyndon and Michael for allowing it to flow whilst stepping in to conduct where necessary. I think the balance is right.

Herding cats? I like to think of it more like those pioneers in the now western US controlling the free-roaming and thinking horses known as Mustangs.

Hi Dave, [384] if the 'Older Poster' you refer to is me, I can assure you that I have never instigated an on-line argument, my posts have always been of a defensive nature. As far as I'm concerned the matter has been dealt with by Lyndon, and as I have suggested I will always react to any character attack by responding.

I had hoped that the issue was dead and buried, and apologies if your post wasn't referring to me, I hope that the next time I visit the site it will be to discuss a 'football related' matter.

Lyndon clearly understands the role of editor is primarily content curator. If he wants to put forward a point of view he writes an opinion piece for posters to comment on.

Michael wants to be editor and protagonist at times. They two don't combine well. Whether John Snr can fight back or not, his targeting by that editor has been uncalled for and undeserved.

Good Morning, Christine.

Please be assured I was not talking about ALL regular posters. Naming names is a sure fire way to cause offence, but by not naming names I guess you open the possibility of people assuming you are talking about them.

I can assure you I was not talking about you. I look out for your posts because you only ever post on topics you know something about. You are a major asset to this site.

The point was raised about what attracts or turns off potential new posters. My own personal view is that people who have an (often ill-informed) opinion about everything and hijack every thread with numerous posts are more likely to turn people off than angry but informed debate.

Catch 22. If the prolific posters didn't post, a lot of these threads would die an early death.

Look forward to reading your take after the game on Saturday. That's all we are really here for...

Thank you Dave, one cannot help wonder at one's own insecurities when comments are made, but I appreciate your perspective.. I will remember it if I slip towards bs mode!

Bernie, John Mac, you guys are the cornerstones of this site, foundations to the future are built on the legacy you inherit and your experience of Everton is better than most.

Few have seen the Golden Vision or the Holy Trinity, Roy Vernon chain-smoking at half-time, Fred Pickering, the Football League Trophy held aloft from the Main Stand, the FA Cup and World Cup doing a lap of honor.

All those things I have seen... you are a rare and treasured breed, gentlemen. I salute you.

I've taken it on board, Dave.

I try to only comment on what I think I have something to contribute to even when not everyone will agree with me or I will not agree with everyone. That's not the point.

On new posters, and in particularly younger ones, that's an interesting point. I've followed this site for years but only really started becoming prominent in the last couple. I was hesitant at first.

I suppose it talks to the point about the contributors generally being over 40. It's like following Everton and football. I have done that since I can remember. But I used to listen to the wise heads around me. You become more confident in your opinion as you get older. The circle of life, as they say.

I value everyone's contribution and opinion. Be it here, in the pub or in whatever walk of life I've had the privilege to circle in. However old, however young, I like to listen to people and learn from them.

Young at heart as the song goes. But experience goes a long way. Just like a football team, life is a blend of both.

Hi Christine [395] I ended my last post by saying " I hope that the next time I visit this site it will be to discuss a 'football related' matter'. I feel that I have to break that resolution because of the kind way you express your view of Bernie and I, a view that can be addressed to many other poster's

Can we just stop all this football chat and naval gazing about the website and get back to Friday's financial statement.

I think it's inevitable that there is a turnover of people posting, like all things that are initially pleasurable, the shine wears off over time.

I think the site gets it right almost all the time and attempts to jazz it up to attract a younger audience runs the risk of spoiling it for us 'oldies'.

Most of us who do post regularly I imagine are opinionated, I know I am and of course my opinion is always correct!

One pet hate I have is about individuals who never post anything positive, you know as soon as their name appears, it's going to be a downer.

Although this is a football site maybe a politics thread more often might be entertaining, many on here appear to have strong feelings on the subject.

The markets are doing all the talking right now, Geoff. Better to have said nothing than to have said that is the general consensus on the BoE paper.

I'm not opinionated, Raymond. I just have a view!

Seriously, I have always liked hearing the opinions and views of others even if I don't always agree with them. It's healthy. I like the saying that God gave us two ears and one mouth. So in theory, we should listen twice as much as we speak.

That might be made up, but I was told it and I like it.

Ah Danny, don't be put off by anything I say. I'm a clumsy sod. I was making an observation about the site and managed to upset more than one.

It's not your job to attract new posters. The fact that that you are liked and respected by many of those who post now says an awful lot about you.

Christine @ 395 - Thanks for those kind words Christine; Does this mean I can still enjoy your screams and Irish Jigs in the middle of the night?

By the way, you missed out Dave Hickson and Wally Fielding from your list!

You're fine, Dave. When you talk, you talk sense. I was just being precious and, to use the Liverpool vernacular, a soft lad.

I'll keep ranting, starting this weekend from the south coast.

I've just been catching up with the additional posts from the weekend. A few thoughts on what has dismissively been described as “navel gazing” by a couple of people when this kind of focus-grouping is a valuable way to gauge sentiment about the site. If you don't like it, move to a different thread.

Traffic on the site is down from historic levels but this is the case, I think, for all sites like this since social media really ramped up and swallowed up most of the proverbial oxygen in the room. There may be something to the notion that younger people want quicker, snappier content but there's also a sizeable contingent of folks who were introduced to the Internet via websites and longer-form content and still want it. I know that's the case for me.

There was a lot of talk on Twitter and on one of the podcasts last week bemoaning the lack of nuance and context in social media because of the brevity of posts and yet sites like this provide a forum to provide as much of both as you please.

Anyway, while I would obviously love the audience to keep growing, it's not traffic or numbers that concern me; rather it's that I can maintain a healthy community and one that continues to be regarded as a valuable resource. It doesn't mean that I'll be doing anything to attract a younger audience — if anything, I'm hoping that as our younger fans grow into boring older buggers like us, they'll find value in this format of longer-form writing and discussion so that TW and the like live on.

Lyndon #405,

Why not develop those thoughts into one of your excellent articles, asking for comments particularly from those who have not been inclined to post previously?

There is going to be plenty of Everton downtime in November and December, you could turn it into a time of review.

Absolute stone wall penalty. Maguire caught square and flat.

Who was that German midfielder who just skipped about 4 tackles?

Great feet and ability.

Harry Maguire...

Pope is crap. If Pickford had played like that in the last two games, all the dimwit pundits would be foaming at the mouth.

Pickford just reconfirmed as England's Number 1.

The two infallible powers – Pickford and Bovril.

Southgate at fault again with the starting set-up and really doesn't know what he is doing. He is out of his depth at this level.

It wasn't until he took Sterling off that they looked better attacking wise.

Sterling is not the player he used to be.

Danny, it is Jamal Musiala. He actually represented England at U21 level before deciding to play for Germany.

Rob, yeah, he plays for Bayern, right? That kid's talent is scary. He and Haaland and Pedri are going to rule the world in a couple of years.

He does, Mike. Although born in Germany, he could also have represented Nigeria because of his father.

Not sure where the English connection comes in to it, other than living in this country for a few years. Does that qualify you to play for England, just because you lived here?

Hi Lyndon Lloyd, Derek Knox, and Peter Mills, if you are on site I have a big favour to ask of you, I must have inadvertently blocked my e-mail access, and I have misplaced my password of 17 years.

To reactivate my e-mail I have to furnish 3 recent exchanges and as all three of you, and I, have exchanged messages in that period you can be my saviours. There are some important items that I can't gain access to, not least my connection with some ToffeeWebbers. if you can be of assistance to me I would be eternally grateful.

He looked great, Rob & Mike. What ability and talent.

Decent match. Looked to be beyond England at one point but they clawed it back.

A fair result – I thought England came strong second half but Germany showed their quality even though it's not as good as what they have shown in the past.

I think this TW ToffeeHouse Chatroom is a great idea.

I've said this before, and yes, it's at odds with Michael's opinion, but my favorite threads on TW have almost all been "off topic" threads!

Most of these off-topic threads got seriously heated. They involved topics such as Covid, firearms, systems of government, redstirubtive wealth, and all sorts of issues. But every single one of them gave me a perspective from folks I've come to admire and respect, and made me contemplate my own views and opinions.

Society has recently gone away from open, vibrant debate and I personally feel we're all worse off for it. If that can be captured, even on a small scale, here at TW, surely that's not a bad thing?

I can honestly say, hand on heart, I can't remember a single time where I can remember holding a grudge against any poster while debating "hot topics" outside of football. Not a single time! Now, I know for a fact there's posters on TW who have made a conscientious decision to ignore me or not reply to any post I write. Thats their decision, their "right", and I hold no ill will towards anyone in that regard.

TW's strength lies, in my opinion, in the window into the person who's posting through off-topic discussion. And we're all adults - we learn from these debates, we learn about the people posting, and I'd argue you come to a larger respect for those engaging in said discussion and debates. If that weren't the case, Mike Gaynes and I wouldn't even talk FFS!!! Never mind the American example, I can easily cite multiple posters who have diametrically opposing viewpoints on a ton of topics whom I frankly adore.

Move the discussions to the TH Chatroom, but man alive don't get rid of the conversations that are admittedly "Everton-off-topic". They're gold in my opinion. Facilitating these topics through the TH Chatroom serves as an avenue for those of us who like such things, and a way for folks who don't like topics outside of Everton Football Club to swerve them. Win-win.

Jamie,

I think we should treat this chatroom as a den of iniquity in a street of otherwise sober and law-abiding households.

As the sign outside says "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here – but you enter of your own free will".

“Sterling is not the player he used to be.”

Personally, I don't think he ever has been that ‘player'.

Always inconsistent, you don't know what he will deliver one moment to the next, but it's definitely more misses than hits.
He is a player who has become a ‘cause célèbre' for a faction of the media, who magnify his successes and downplay his faults.

I can't think of any reason he shouldn't still be in his prime, but that doesn't mean he won't regularly have you laughing one minute and crying the next if you are relying on him to deliver.

Brent,

TH Chatroom the "den of iniquity" – cousin to the Live Forum?

Caution, indeed! All while heeding the Big Man's greatest gift: free will.

I like it. Two thumbs up from Crowley.

As much as it appalls me to find myself in agreement with Jamie on anything non-football-related, I heartily endorse his views regarding the delights of discussions here that have veered unpredictably off-topic. They're my favorites too, but I'd go even farther.

In the course of such strange diversions of subject, I have learned about books and authors that now decorate my bookshelf, music that now lives on my iPhone, foods I had never eaten, philosophies I didn't know existed, world history I had never encountered, players and games I had never heard of, and aspects of everyday life in Britain that I would never have learned about any other way.

I have read personal accounts of life, death, travel, love, family, strange encounters, illness and recovery, and alcohol-fueled misadventures that have left me in tears of either overwhelming emotion or helpless laughter.

And I have formed deep friendships with people I hadn't met yet -- and some I will never meet -- that are as rewarding in their way as any I have ever experienced.

(Plus I know the names of at least three times more fish species than I did a few years ago.)

I've always viewed TW as a virtual pub, where anything and everything could come up for discussion at any time, and I love that aspect of the site. If these discussions have to be moved into the back room by the pool table, so be it, but in my opinion, they are treasures that should remain right up front where I can cherish them.

Mike,

Why do you always have to take what I have to say, and improve on it?

So frustrating!!!

😂😂😂

Cheers. Well said. Even if your liberal views are warped, you come up with some decent shit now and again.

Mike #422,

Why do you always have to submit the best post!

Superb, Mike!

Longer arms he may have but

#nohopeforpope

Pope and Slabhead. Pundits trying to say it was a difficult one for the hapless keeper. Bleedin' back pass.

Get fit soon, Jordan.

Thanks, Brent.

And cheers, Jamie. If you think I'm eloquent now, wait until 2024 when I begin to expound on your man DeSleazis!

Si @420.

We all winced – well, I did when Man City let Sterling go but it just shows you a visionary class act like Pep knows what he's doing. Man City appear so far not to have missed his input or have tweaked and found another way of attacking. Probably because of Harland.

Unlike over the park, that grinning idiot not replacing their obvious best player in Mane. To a lesser extent, we will do the same with the Richarlison money, I'm sure.

Jamie & Mike, being one of the guilty, great posts. It's what sets this site apart.

And we'll always come back on track to what we're all here for. Football and Everton.

But the wider discussion is entertaining and educational.

Good point, Brian. It shows that Pep is staying relevant. Letting Sterling go raised an eyebrow, but he knew what he was doing.

Being a relatively new Blue (mid-Moyes) and well on my way to geezerhood (69 on 27 September), and a loyal ToffeeWebber since day one, there are a few things I've come to realize.

I know very little about football. I'm on the other side of the planet and football here is a completely different animal. I grew up with hockey, CFL football and basketball. Except for a brief interlude with the Whitecaps (and Alan Ball), I had absolutely no interest in soccer. It seemed that it was a game for violent goons (the fans) and prima donnas (the players).

I used to post a lot more on ToffeeWeb, but don't much anymore. I don't share the anger towards the owner, the chairman and the players, that seems to drive the site. I have to believe that everyone connected with Everton has the club's best interest at heart. I guess I'm just a happy clapper .

I love to watch the Blues play. A win makes my day. A loss is an “Oh well. We'll get ‘em next time. Not the end of the world.”

ToffeeWeb is the first thing I check in the morning. I may not participate much, but I monitor religiously. (The Live Forum is brilliant.)

I hope I get over to a match in Goodison before it gets demolished. Number 1 on my bucket list.

Darryl, you're not a new blue. You are an Evertonian.

I think my wife would disagree with you on the matchday loss. I'm inconsolable. Sometimes for days.

Get down to Goodison Park, Darryl. And have chips, peas and onion gravy at the Goodison Supper Bar, served by the same people that have served me since I can remember.

Failing that, see you at Bramley-Moore Dock.

Post more. Views are more than welcome, especially different perspective from fools like myself.

Dave Cashen- I caught the highlights of our girls thumping those Red ladies at Mordor. There seemed to be a fair amount of spectators.

I did see a few lovely bits of skill but the defensive errors and goalkeeping gaffes really undermine the good stuff. For me, the goals are too big. Some of the long range shots, hit with only a modicum of power invariably evade the goalkeeper, who has no chance of diving to tip it over. Surely a smaller goal is the key to better games?

Very good point, Eddie, but if you want to talk about woman's football with Dave, then can't you do it on the other thread!

I don't think you're a happy clapper, Darryl, because when you say you “have” to believe, it's probably the most logical thing anyone has written on this very long thread.

Eddie #432

The problem is not the size of the goals, it's the standard of the goalkeepers. This will naturally improve as more girls take up the game.

In 1900 the average height of a UK male was 5'-7". In 1960, it was around 5'-8".

In the 1950s and '60s very few top goalkeepers were over 6'.

England's Springett, Hopkinson and Hodgkinson were all well under 6' as was Everton's Albert Dunlop.

Not that long ago, the US was advocating (men's) goals be made bigger to produce more goals and excitement.

What strikes me about the defensive mistakes is that the defenders just lack the pace to recover losing possession. This is also apparent with the strikers who just don't have that searing acceleration to get clear.

Women's football is slower and lacks the physicality of the men's game. It's different; not better and not worse, just different.

I have to say that the standard of the women's / girls' game is definitely improving.

I do think there needs to be a gradual progression to full-size goals and pitches.

Maybe the women's game does need to consider smaller pitches and goals?

I know things have changed and we've adopted a more Dutch-style approach with intermediate pitches as a transition between mini-football (7-a-side) and 11-a-side full-size goal pitches.

But I did look on with concern when the boys first went to 11-a-side. Ridiculous scorelines because the 11-year-old keeper couldn't get to a random unintended scoop that floated above his head.

Bill (454) – that is too much of a simplification of the goal size issue.

First, you have to look at athletic ability which is not all to do with height. The average height for a man is still quoted as 5'-9” (around 175 cm) and 5'-4” (around 162 cm) for a woman. That makes the average woman about 92 per cent the height of the average man. But both the women's long and high jump world records are only about 85 per cent that of the men's equivalent. A Pickford-sized woman isn't going to out-spring him.

Then you need to consider the percentage of women that will play football competitively compared to men, otherwise you are not even likely to get that many above-average-height women playing in goal.

Female goalies have a mountain to climb to fill the goals like their male counterparts and it isn't because they haven't applied themselves properly yet.

Darryl #430, make it happen. Do not wait for something to occur that might cause you to miss the opportunity.

I'd been a Blue for 32 years before I finally made it to Goodison from the US, and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life. I came home an Evertonian to my soul.

Just go.

Goals make the game and reducing the size it may decrease the goals but reduce the excitement.

Scoring is both good play by an attacker or poor player by a keeper, both go through their careers with regulation-sized goals, except when they first start as a young child.

Asking for a smaller goal in women's football is like asking for larger goals in women's ice hockey.

Just a casual aside - re Monarchy and Republicism; a poll held here in New Zealand, a couple of days ago showed 23% voted for New Zealand to become a republic and 50% for a monarchy -– and I understand that over in Australia it was a similar vote.

I just held a referendum which is a bit more reliable than polls and the result was that there were no votes for a monarchy.

Bernie #442,

Polls depend a lot on how the question is framed and how the response is interpreted.

Your poll tells me that 50% of the respondents didn't vote for a monarchy.

Bill and Dale, I am not looking for an argument over this.

Just saying that the New Zealand result was a TV nationwide poll – I don't know the wording of the questions and the other 27% in the poll were undecided.

Dale, how many took part in your referendum and what was your question? I was with a Church group of 37 people and 36 said New Zealand should remain a Monarchy.

My own feelings? Well I was a strong Monarchist with Queen Elizabeth, but definitely wavering with Charles!

Bill/Bernie

Bill you're right more than 50% weren't pro monarchy but, in most elections, we struggle to get 50% of people to vote. Those who do have firm opinions mostly so based on Bernie's poll the chances are New Zealand would keep the monarchy based on more motivated voters supporting the monarch by almost double those who are against.

Like Bernie, I liked the Queen. As an institution? I'm not in favour of lording certain humans above the rest of us but, given the alternatives: Cromwell, Lenin, Robespierre et al, I'd argue like Churchill: ours is the least bad system.

If New Zealand or Australia with their native people, and others who are of non-British ancestry, feel otherwise, then that's their right and it's not for me to tell anyone, much less people on the other side of the world, what to do. But as of now, it does appear a voting majority favour the monarchy

Just heard about the 16-year-old Samuels-Smith... don't trust a double barrel lol ) Maybe the next Leighton Baines so let's hope we don't miss a trick over his signature to a contract. Obviously the same with Tom Cannon who I'm sure will be gracing the first team this season. Especially if we can't get these forward targets we just missed out on.

Danny @276,

'I'll challenge you there, Trevor Peers, in your definition of 'extreme right'.'

Now the pound has crashed to parity with the dollar, maybe even you can see that in political terms this is the most right-wing government ever seen in this country. They are hell bent on destroying society because they don't believe in it. They want a country without public services and full of work houses for the ill and under-educated, I don't expect you to agree, that's your choice.

That's where we are headed under Rees-Mogg and his ilk. Truss is merely his puppet.

I have to thank Chris Williams in another thread for mentioning In My Liverpool Home.

For those of you who don't know, Peter McGovern wrote the song in 1961 and I am proud to say that he was a family friend for many years and would often sing with his friend Bob Ramsey in the snug of mum and dad's pub "The Wedding House" in Pownall Square, after he finished work at Exchange Station.

Many the night we would all spend it singing to their music with pints of Guinness flowing freely into the small hours (police often in attendance, lol). His granddaughter Allison McGovern has been the Labour MP for South Wirral for the last 12 years.

There was a lovely obituary in the Independent for him when he died in 2006.. for those interested it's behind a paywall so I have cut and pasted it. It's worth a read. Nice reference to the Blues as well.

OBITUARY

Peter John McGovern, singer and songwriter: born Liverpool 28 October 1927; married 1950 Audrey McCann (one son, one daughter); died Trawsfynydd, Gwynedd 1 April 2006.

With its Capital of Culture year imminent, Liverpool has become a mammoth building site, but the tourists will want to celebrate the old Liverpool and the heritage reflected in Pete McGovern's perceptive and humorous song "In My Liverpool Home". The lyrics about overcrowding, sectarian violence and stealing from lorries may not be the image that Liverpool Council would want to promote, but the song is regarded as the city's anthem and it plays a significant part in its culture. "I wrote it in 1961," said McGovern, "but a lot of people have said to me, 'You didn't write that. It was written in 1848.' "

As in the song, Pete McGovern was "born in Liverpool down by the docks", into a Liverpool Irish family, in 1927. He was the youngest of 14 children and he obtained his love of story-telling and folk-singing from his father. He told me,

My dad was the slowest singer I've ever heard. He used to sing very slowly to make sure that everyone got the message, especially with the rebel songs.

However, Pete differed from his father in that he wanted to write his own material. From his teenage years, he became adept with words:

If I read that there was no rhyme for "virgin", that was a challenge and I rhymed it with "metallurging". I loved writing songs and I realised that I wanted to write about Liverpool people and their attitudes.

He met his wife Audrey McGann (the prototype of "Bridget McGann" in his famous song) in Liverpool and when she took a secretarial job for the National Union of Railwaymen, he followed her to London and became a railwayman himself. He started as a wheel-tapper in 1950 and retired as a safety manager in 1992.

Returning to Liverpool a few years later, Pete and Audrey McGovern would attend the folk club run by the Spinners at Sampson and Barlow's restaurant. They liked the club, but wanted one that would encourage floor singers, so with their friend, Bill Moore, they started the Wash House folk club in the same building, but on a different night. The restaurant was opposite the Odeon Cinema and when Bob Dylan appeared there with a rock band in 1966, dissatisfied customers marched out of the building and into the Wash House.

The Spinners performed many local songs including "Liverpool Lou", "Maggie May" and "In My Liverpool Home". McGovern had loved Marty Robbins's country record "Strawberry Roan" and, in the best folk music tradition, he purloined the melody for "In My Liverpool Home". It was written in 1961 at a time when Liverpool's second cathedral was being built and it referred to Jacob Epstein's larger-than-life statue of a nude man outside Lewis's:

In my Liverpool home,

In my Liverpool home,

We speak with an accent exceedingly rare

Meet under a statue exceedingly bare,

If you want a cathedral, we've got one to spare,

In my Liverpool home.

When Everton and Liverpool were playing in the Milk Cup at Wembley in 1984, Tony Davis of the Spinners recalls,

the Liverpool Echo sponsored a special marching band, the Red and the Blues, and asked them and us to play at half-time. We asked Pete to lead the community singing on "In My Liverpool Home" which he changed to "In My Merseyside Home". Pete put his arm round me at the end of the match and said, "Even though Everton won, this has been the best day of my life."

In 1991 a host of Liverpool performers gathered at BBC Radio Merseyside to record 60 different verses of the song for a cassette release. Every verse was witty, poignant and without malice. McGovern kept on writing and every local event would spark his creativity: he added verses on the Garden Festival, Paul McCartney's knighthood and the Superlambbanana sculpture. He wrote many other songs, notably "Rent Collecting in Speke" and "I'm Gettin' Brassed Off with Me Dad". A book of his songs, In My Liverpool Head, was published in 1995.

McGovern was a keen union official and in retirement was the secretary of the Merseyside Pensioners Club, campaigning for pensions linked to the cost of living. He wrote a song for the group, "Dignity in Retirement".

Last Saturday, McGovern had had a perfect day at his holiday home in North Wales. He had seen Liverpool win and he was delighted that Robbie Fowler had scored, as he had written a song for Fowler's wedding. He drank a couple of glasses of Guinness, completed the crossword and went to bed. He died in his sleep.

Spencer Leigh

Kieran and Bernie.

I'd have absolutely no problem with Charles... if he stood for election and was voted in for a term of four or five years. Heads of State must be accountable.

Meanwhile, it's taken our Chancellor and unelected PM just a week to crash the British £.

Time to exchange those US dollars I've had lying around for 10 years! Every cloud... as they say.

That's a great story Christine.

I like Liverpool Lou. I may have blinkers, but I don't think there's a city with as many songs written about it. Certainly not in the UK.

Interesting reference to a song written in the 60s being an anthem. If I'm not mistaken, the song Scotland now sing as their anthem at Rugby and Football is not some mythological ancient tune. It is a 1960s folk song, probably written in a pub.

Independent Republic of Liverpool (or Merseyside) with our own anthem?!!!

Thanks again for the recollection.

Trevor, just as I was trying to get back on the football!!

Short termIsm and lack of strategy. Bowing to BBC Breakfast and the what are we going to do today, tomorrow or next week rather than focus on what needs to be achieved longer term. That's what the current new regime has done.

We should know as Everton what a lack of strategy can do.

In my lifetime, these things work in cycles. I remember the 70s as a dark period in our country's history. The 80s even worse before things got better. On a personal front, we lost our house, my mother and siblings were in a council paid for bedsit until they could get relocated and I stayed at my Aunties with my cousins as I finished my last year at school and took my exams.

I think society was more messed up then than it is in danger of becoming now. Maybe that's just personal experience.

On currency, I believe the pound was equally low in the mid 80s, but it didn't bother me then. Now it does as I have property in the States and have to transfer money so it impacts me directly. I remember visiting Italy in 2010 and the pound was virtually 1 to 1 with the Euro. By the time you took money out and added on the commission, you got less than a pound for the Euro.

It recovered. Society didn't collapse. Cycles.

I've turned off BBC Breakfast and their tales of how bad the world is.

The sun is shining, the dogs are smiling. To be honest mate, I more focussed on how I get to Southampton on Saturday amidst the planned train strikes.

Best wishes.

Christine,

That's a marvellous obituary and a lovely personal story. Thanks for that.

This is a great song that has achieved classic folk song status, and it's grown in the telling, from its 6 verse original version. There are now over 160 verses compiled, some by Pete himself, and versions for Evertonians and Rednoses alike. It's clearly struck a few chords over the years. In folk music, it's not unusual for individual singers to adapt songs for their audience, but I don't remember anything on this scale.

The period that this song, and a lot of others, like Whisky On A Sunday, Liverpool Lullaby, Liverpool Lou, were written and became known across the country, as well as the ground-breaking work of Frank Shaw, are covered in a book by Tony Crowley ‘Scouse: A Social And Cultural History ‘.

It can be a bit academic, but it's also informative for people who are interested in these things.

Chris, yes indeed, like the famous book, Teach yourself Scouse. On a separate note, I saw that The Throstle's Nest is up for sale... what happened to the Eagle Vaults at the top of Penryn Street?

Funny, last year I was in a pub in Te Awamutu (a small town in Waikato, New Zealand) when an Irish band came on, they sang In My Liverpool Home and I got up and sang with them, then My Little Irish Jig followed by Dirty Old Town.

I think I cried into my Guinness... Worst thing was, one of the band had Seamus Coleman's Irish shirt on

Chris (453),

I loved reading the many articles by Frank Shaw in the Liverpool Echo, when it was worth reading, about the meanings of Scouse literature, they were always a pleasure and a tonic to read.

I've made a note of Tony Crowley and the title of his book, thanks for the hint, Chris.

Christine,

A lot of pubs have gone the journey, over the last few years. COVID saw off many; now, the small issue of electricity prices is finishing more off. My son runs a few micropubs on The Wirral, and I've lived it with him. He's doing okay fortunately, but a different business model.

Incredible the reach of that song, Christine, and its longevity. Fritz Spiegl wrote that book and also rearranged Johnny Todd to a pipe and drum arrangement for Z-Cars, so a nice Everton link.

Dirty Old Town is one of my favourite songs. I think Ewan McColl originally wrote it for his Radio Ballads on BBC Radio, back in the 50s. My grandson really enjoyed a live version by the Dubliners on YouTube, and the last time I sang it was with him, coming home after a nice meal in Majorca. He's eight!

Danny @452

I've no wish to bang on about politics but you challenged me directly. I think even you may have questioned that this is a dangerous administration with an ideological agenda to crush anyone less fortunate than themselves. An agenda that is sweeping across Europe and the world.

Any one over 60 will recall how tougher life was then, when we were younger. Living in Liverpool, I can remember the abject poverty which was heartbreaking, I never thought we would actually go back to that. That's where we're heading unless something changes politically to halt the march to the hard right and redress the balance.

Important as it is maybe this is probably not the right forum for such a discussion.

So I also look forward to Saturday's game and hopefully for 3 points from the beloved blues at Southampton! COYB.

Cheers Dave,

Whisper it, but I think Tony Crowley might be a Red! Frank Shaw gets a whole section of the book to himself. I think he pretty much put ‘Scouse' on the map.

Before we were Scousers we were Wackers, which I remember, but apparently before that we were ‘Dicky Sams'. I don't remember that thankfully, but it's all in the book.

Christine (454),

Yes, The Throstles Nest is up for sale. It is now known as “One Flew Over The Throstles Nest” after the famous film, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, I think it fits in with a lot of the customers there, to be honest!! As far as I know, the Eagle Vaults is still open to business.

The group you mention, The Spinners, played for a long time at the Gregsons Wells in Brunswick Road and a couple of them would come into The Goblin, off Islington, for a drink or two before they went to perform at the Gregsons Wells on a Tuesday night.

By the way, Christine, have you still got your Scouse accent? If you have, I bet it went down well when you got up and joined singing “In my Liverpool Home”!!

Indeed Trevor and I have no objection to wider debate. I always try to counter and challenge. That's just my way.

What is happening in Europe right now should concern those who look beyond these shores. Italy about to go hard right. Really hard right. For a country that has areas that still idolise Mussolini, that is a concern. Le Pen seemingly on an upward spiral again in France. Parts of Eastern Europe still at odds with Brussels, and a war on our doorstep led by a despotic Dictator with no apparent reason or strategy.

My point is that we often, and rightfully so, beat ourselves up when life actually isn't that bad. We expect and demand high standards, just as we do as Evertonians.

I witnessed first hand the devastation of Bosnia in the 90s. Recent living history in the context of winning our last trophy. I would say that impacted me more than my ventures into other parts of the globe even though it was less directly combative.

Anyway, we can talk on Saturday when we bring the points home. Best wishes Trevor.

Chris (458),

I think away from the football we are very much alike, Red or Blue, in the cartoon featured in The Echo “The Back Entry Diddlers” by George Green, he often referred to “Wackers“. I read an article about “Dicky Sams” and I think to qualify to be one of those you had to live within one square mile of the Liver Buildings.

You and me might just have squeezed into that space, and Christine as well!!

Dave,

People tell me I lost my accent when I lived in New Zealand and Australia. In Holland they couldn't understand me at all, so I learnt to speak slowly and precisely.

That would all go out of the window when I landed in Speke or 2 minutes with family in Vauxhall... either that or a few lagers. Everyone thinks I'm Irish these days... no idea.

Cheers Danny!

It's great we can have such a good discussion and remain friends. United in our desire for the very best, for our team and country. Best wishes to you.

As we're on the Irish song theme, Dirty Old Town could be about Liverpool as much as it is about Dublin.

Black Velvet Band is another of my favourites. Probably due to my Grandfather's Belfast roots.

It goes against my professional background, but I also love listening to The Town I Loved so Well.

This might open me up to a slating, but I'd loved us to have adopted Fields of Athenry before they stole it and changed the words. Impressive when Celtic sing the correct version.

Not directly related, but if you want to be impressed, watch the clip of the Hibernian supporters belting out the Proclaimers Sunshine on Leith at the end of the 2016 Scottish Cup Final.

Everton link - Alan Stubbs was the manager. Family link, I think there's a young McGinn, now impressing at Aston Villa in the footage. I think he's a really good player.

We have Spirit, we have Forever. Let's adopt more classic tunes and make them our own!!

Christine (462) regarding people thinking you are Irish...

Me and my wife were in Dublin a few years ago, got into the company of a load of young Irish girls and their boyfriends having a good chat to them in between a good sing song with the whole pub singing.

Then one of the girls asked my wife what part of Ireland did we come from? Without a moment's thought, my wife said “The second Capital of Ireland, Liverpool!!!”

We had been in their company for a good couple of hours by then, so I think it's easy for a Scouser to be thought of as Irish.

Danny (464),

For some reason, I think Dirty Old Town is about Salford.

Dave,

It certainly is about Salford, where Ewan McColl grew up. Interesting group of people, was Ewan McColl!

Dave @466,

I think you may be getting confused with the Oasis song "Half The World Away"
which was the theme song used for the Royle Family.

Well there's another School Day for me! Salford? I'd never have guessed or known that.

It's like Homeward Bound. A world renowned classic song close to my heart over the years, apparently being inspired by the depression of being at Widnes or Warrington station. I believe it's debatable which one.

Danny,

Paul Simon spent a couple of months living in Widnes and playing local venues.
There is a plaque at the local station in Widnes claiming that's where "Homeward Bound" was written.

Dirty Old Town. Certainly Salford. Spent a couple of years there. Dirty old town.

Danny 461 Best football anthem ever. Always find I have something in my eye when I hear that.

My heart was broken. You saw it, you claimed it, you touched it. You saved it.

My tears are drying.

While I'm worth my room on this Earth, I will be with you.

I randomly and purposely stole a few of the lines there Alan.

What a song.

But look at it now Brent. Salford Quays and Media City. It's effectively made Manchester the second city of the UK even though it's technically not Manchester.

We'd probably still be arguing as to whether Kirkby, Bootle or Huyton are in the city of Liverpool. Even though technically they are not they are spiritually and culturally as are many of the surrounding areas.

I remember this fella starting singing The Fields of Goodison Park, one night in my cab, Danny, and I asked him to stop singing their song.

He was from over the water, and as well as telling me he was a fanatical Evertonian, he also told me he followed the Republic of Ireland.

Anyway, he took offence at me saying it was their song, and told me that those dirty horrible Liverpudlians, had heard him singing his version in Ned Kelly's, changed the lyrics and robbed it for themselves.

His version was Kendall, Harvey and Ball, and Dixie the greatest of all. It sounded great, only for those robbing bastards!

He sounds like a wise man Tony.

They robbed us of more than a song. They stole a generation of an opportunity, but best I don't get started on that one.

I may be an exile and ex-pat these days, but we're taking this city back. Our city.

1878. The Originals. Proudly looking out to sea and the outside world.

They can have their Stanley Park.

Danny that's it.

1878. The Originals.

That will hurt them more than anything because they can't deny it, they can't change it, they can't live with it.

The City is ours. We are back, stand aside..

1878 The Originals are back. Who are you?

Just in case anybody is heading onto the M1, it's reported that a lorry containing snooker equipment has shed its load.

Police are reporting cues in both directions.

Danny (461),

Yes “Sunshine on Leith” what a cracking atmosphere those Hibs fans created that day when they beat Rangers to claim the Scottish FA Cup.

Tony Kelly, one-time ToffeeWeb poster, had that song played at his funeral in SFX church, he got clapped out of the church that day, another Bluenose who lit up your day when you met him. Gone but not forgotten, Tony.

I didn't know where to put this, then I saw this thread being posted on.

I had the pleasure of watching Amadou Onana playing for Belgium against The Netherlands at the Johan Cruyff Arena in Amsterdam on Sunday.

It was a poor match, with Romelu Lukaku missing for the Belgians, and Memphis Depay and Frenkie de Jong for the home side. We aren't the only team being affected by injuries.

I thought Amadou put himself about well, bounding around the field with his athletism.
Kevin de Bruyne was largely invisible, but he did have a moment of brilliance putting our player through on goal.

Alas, Remko Pasveer, the Dutch goalie, made a good save to prevent our man from scoring his first International goal.

After the match, he seemed to be getting on well with Virgil van Dijk, the match winner, so no hard feelings after the derby.

He was substituted in the 75th minute for Leicester's Youri Tielemans.

No injuries, he should be fine for the trip to Southampton on Saturday.

Danny, yes Salford is now a very different place from when I was there for a few years in the '60s. All the matchstick men have gone.

The musical film of the same name isn't a bad call either, Dave. Low budget and I probably look at it through my own glasses, but it's a good watch.

Brent, now you're pointing me to that St Domingo's that was created around 2009 based on the Lowery classic.

Dave.

If you like Sunshine on Leith there is another very clever song on the album. It's called "What School". It's a tongue-in-cheek reference to the old Glaswegian trick of people asking someone they are meeting for the first time "What School did you go to?" – far more tactful than asking "Are you Orange or Green?"

In this small ancient nation.
We gather information.
In slower ways and worser ways.
Some do appraise, by using this phrase.
"What school did you go to?" Sounds like.
"Where did you spend your teenage days?"
But "What school did you go to?".
Doesn't mean what it says.

Later

In the West side of this country.
To stop it getting funky.
As they extend a hand.
They say like Kissenger of Talleyrand.
"What school did you go to?"

Wonderful stuff. They even give a mention to Led Zep in that song.

Dave (40),

Thanks, I'll try that on my iPad later. What got me with the football occasion was you are watching it as the Hibs fans were singing it over and over.

I thought it was a very emotional occasion for a team and club who were once big time but hadn't been in that position for quite a while and here they were winning the Scottish FA Cup.

It reminded me of the last time we had been victorious at Wembley, beating Man Utd in the semi-final of the FA Cup and we couldn't stop singing ‘Is this the way to Amarillo?”

No Everton fan wanted to leave Wembley that day. I nearly missed the bleedin' coach to take me home. We need some days like that and the sooner the better, memories eh Dave!!

Couldn't agree more Dave. What a magnificent rendition/s the Hibs fans gave at Hampden that day.

It'll be our turn again soon enough, mate.

Talking about pubs closing, I went to the openings of both the Oyster and the Lobster and I hear that both of them have closed… also the Western.,

As for going to clubs downtown, did anyone else go to the Black Cat in London Road? I remember that one starting up.

My local was the Broadway until we moved up to Kirkby. Another pub we used to go to, the wife believes was called The Whitehouse, that at one time was run by my wife's mother's sister. My Wife is from The Four Squares.

Bill.

The Broadway pub (and club) was our usual haunt, especially on a Sunday late bev. The club featured in a film Gumshoe with Bill Dean (Harry Cross) and Albert Finney… or have I got the name wrong on him?

Brian we moved to Kirkby in 1970 so we very really got back down to the Broadway Pub, the last time we got to the club, Joe Royle's dad was still playing the organ there.

Bill (483) think the Black Cat was over Sampson and Barlows, the Broadway is still going, not sure about the Whitehouse, the Swan in Old Swan was known as the Whitehouse, could that be the same as the one you mentioned?

As for the Four Squares we have had a few conversations about those lovely tenements in the past, my playing fields, also your wife went to the girls section of The Friary in Everton Brow while I went to the boys section in Netherfield Road, happy days from long ago!!

Dave it may have changed its name but it was in the area they now call the rope works
There was a group that we liked and I think they were called the Interns. My memory is not what is used to be as I am close to 82 and my wife said sometimes I cant remember what I had for breakfast. Coming up to our 62nd anniversary soon. Bramley Moore on my Bucket List.

Bill,

I remember a group called The Interns. Saw them on the OPB.

The Guardian are today reporting the following — I hope Everton is not doing this sort of thing:

Football League clubs taking cut of gamblers' losses with SkyBet

"English football clubs have been taking a cut of the money fans lose with the bookmaker SkyBet..., prompting accusations that they are exploiting supporters and gambling addicts.

"An internal document shows that members of the Football League (EFL), made up of the 72 clubs outside the Premier League, operated as “affiliates” for SkyBet. An affiliate is a middleman who encourages a gambler to bet with a particular company, which then pays them a percentage of the money that person goes on to lose, sometimes for the rest of their life."

Chris,

Funny thing about groups in Liverpool. One of my cousins, George Robison, his mother was my dad's sister, and my wife and mother often went to their house for a cup of tea when they went shopping in Broadway, and we even went to George's sister's wedding,

So I was surprised that his group the Crying Shames became quite successful.

Another friend of ours Tommy Mcgurk (sorry if I spelt it wrong) played with the Pete Best Four who when they came to the States were called the Pete Best Trio as I found out later Tommy did not want to go to the States.

Brent#489

I'd Stake good money that we're not!

Brendan, and if you're wrong, EFC gets a cut of your losses! Go on, lump on, Brendan!

Francis #477, great report, thank you.

Bilyaletdinov has been called up to fight in Ukraine. He is 37 now, and during active service (aged 18 received an exemption from combat as he was playing sports). His Dad is disputing the call up as the partial mobilization is supposed to be for people with prior active service who are under the age of 35. But as of now, the former Everton man is in line to go to the front line in the Ukraine.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-11258723/Former-Everton-midfielder-Diniyar-Bilyaletdinov-called-fight-Russian-armed-forces.html

Bill,

Yes, there were more than 300 groups in Liverpool, and hundreds of clubs. Every night the Echo had multiple pages of gigs that night. Bands were doing several a night. As the city gained prominence, big names were queuing up to come here. Plus the Folk clubs, plus the C&W clubs. Unbelievable.

The OPB was our local club, and I was studying, so wasn't able to go to the Cavern. But saw loads there, like Freddie Starr and the Midniters who were shite. He started to tell jokes and that became the act eventually. Sonny Boy Williamson backed by Nashville Teens were great. The Dennison's from up the road were ok. Saw the Beatles at the Aintree Institute but my mates who were a bit older were off to the Cavern and and Iron Door, And I was doing Maths and French homework. All that changed later on.

I remember the Crying Shames. They had a decent career from memory. I think a lad from the Dennisons might have replaced Graham Nash in the Hollies, when he teamed up with Stills and Crosby and Young.

Did Pete Best do ok in the States? I see they finally did right by him and he got some royalties from the stuff he recorded with the Beatles.

Jesus we were spoiled, great music and great football, and the city was booming!

Chris (495), did you ever see/ hear The Chants a coloured ( black) group who were managed by Bran Epstein at one time, they made records under Pye and were very popular in the early sixties, one of them Eddie Amoo, I think later found fame with “ The Real Thing “ and had some big hits with them.

Denmark will be wearing kits that protest Qatari human rights offences. It's not a boycott but it is something.

Dave, the Chants were brilliant! I thought they deserved to go further. I could write a book, if you asked me!

Dave
Link

Just read that Kieran#494, hope they don't give him a rifle and start shouting “shoot “ anyone could get hurt 🫢
TBF I remember a tremendous strike against Bolton I think.

Dave,

I never saw them live, but they had some hits from memory. I remember The Beatles were the panel on Juke Box Jury, and the Chants record came up, and they were raving about them. They clearly knew them.

Bill Harry wrote a book about the Liverpool Music Scene called “Bigger Than The Beatles”, and he would know better than most. Worth a read.

I've been to some pretty shabby pubs and bars in my time and my local Wetherspoons makes me feel normal.

But for those who remember, the Ponderosa near the Parade in Speke took some beating. There was also a classy joint on the eastern side. I forget the name.

Danny, I remember a short lived band from the early 80's Ponderosa Glee boys, Any connection?

Farewells were said today to Ian Cockbain, a great cricketer for Bootle and later for Formby, a huge character, and a rather keen Evertonian.

He came in to “Z Cars”, left to “Spirit of the Blues”. I developed a touch of hay fever.

Peter 504, a great cricketer for Lancashire too.. RIP.

Brent (498), yes I remember them with that song “ I could write a book” a great standard song covered by many singers, but there used to be a musical section in the Liverpool Museum when it was in William Brown Street and they were on the juke box there and I used to go there with my great grandson and he loved to hear the music on it, they were all Liverpool singers from the forties upwards : Lita Rosa, Russ Hamilton, Frankie Vaughan, Ken Dodd, Cilla Black, Billy Fury, Gerry Marsdon, The Beatles and other groups.

And the beauty of this Juke box was you didn't have to put any money in it, great eh Brent!!

Dave 506, what do you do with the orange peel after you've peeled it in your pocket?

Jeff ( 507) I put into the pocket of the fella next to me with the same deftness I peeled it with !

Jeff, I bet he leaves it there together with the groats and that fifty-pence piece with a hinge.

Brent, 509, the scouse rhyming slang of “ door hinge “ springs to mind when Dave's money saving preferences are brought up..by Dave.

Jeff, we're wondering what the deisgn of newly-minted currency will now look like with a new king on the throne. Dave already has plenty of money with images of the old king on it.

Dave 508,

I'm still laughing at the guy next to you in Bullens Rd thinking “I'm sure I didn't bring an orange to this game????” “Deftness” what a word.😭😂😂

Brent, Dave will now start using his “new money” but how far will it get him with the King's new ears?

Jeff (512),

To be honest, I got the Orange out of the fella's pocket in the first place.

Talking about the King, with those ears, he's been granted a certificate which gives him permission to shit in the street!.

Dave, the problem with shitting in the streets, it becomes a dog's life.

Oh and you called an oller a holler recently, when did you get posh??

Dave @462, how are you, by the way?

Unlike Christine, I'm never, despite being Irish, mistaken for being Irish. It's because I have the most unirish name in Ireland.

Dave Cashen, asking about school is so unsubtle. Here, it's easy. Just ask Harry, Harriet, Heathcliffe etc to spell their name. Aitch or Haitch. Simple, the poisonous little nuances that make the world go round.