Premier League announce pause to honour The Queen

09/09/2022 639comments  |  Jump to last

The Premier League and English Football League have announced the postponement of all this weekend’s fixtures following the death of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.

Richard Masters, Premier League Chief Executive said: “We and our clubs would like to pay tribute to Her Majesty’s long and unwavering service to our country.  As our longest-serving monarch, she has been an inspiration and leaves behind an incredible legacy following a life of dedication.  

“This is a tremendously sad time for not just the nation but also for the millions of people around the world who admired her, and we join together with all those in mourning her passing.”

Article continues below video content

Further updates regarding Premier League fixtures during the period of mourning will be provided in due course.

Everton U21s' game against Wolves that was due to kick-off at 7 pm tonight has also been postponed. 


Reader Comments (639)

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Michael Kenrick
1 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:39:59
Well, I didn't expect that. I was wrong.

A totally unnecessary complication of an already compromised Premier League schedule.

The games should have gone ahead.

Danny O’Neill
2 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:43:42
Agree Michael. Smacks of be seen to be doing something.

I'm a Monarchist by the way.

Kevin Jones
3 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:48:46
Monarch of 70 years passes away but a game of footy is more important. Come on, fellers it's 1 game, we'll catch up.
Johan Elmgren
4 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:50:03
I think it's a nice and appropriate gesture. Plus it will benefit us giving Calvert-Lewin another week to heal, and we'll probably only miss Pickford for one game...

Win-win :-)

Brent Stephens
5 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:52:19
Agreed, Michael. I think there is a line beyond which you're forcing people to pay their respects to an extent and at times which they feel is excessive.
Steavey Buckley
6 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:53:11
There is no obligation from the UK government placed on any sporting organisations to cancel any sporting events this week-end. So, the decision by the Premier League to cancel this weekend's fixtures was their decision and their decision alone — that was unnecessary.

Did the Premier League consult with the football clubs about their decision? Probably not.

Kunal Desai
7 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:55:00
Looks a possibility that next weekend's fixtures will also be postponed to bring in line with funeral arrangements.

On a positive note, Doucoure, Calvert-Lewin and Pickford one week closer to fitness. Maybe we might catch Arsenal on a better day.
#3 Kevin. Agree. A moment in British history. Anything else pales in to insignificance.

Brian Hennessy
8 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:57:56
As an Irish Evertonian, I don't think I have any right to say if games should or shouldn't have gone ahead this weekend, it's very much a decision for the British people.

I'm a proud Irishman, and have nothing but respect for the way Queen Elizabeth II carried out her duties over 70 years and she showed a lot of respect for the Irish people when she visited in 2011.

Andrew Ellams
9 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:58:39
If the same happens next week with the funeral etc. then we will go a month without any games.
Chris Leyland
10 Posted 09/09/2022 at 11:59:02
I get the historical significance of the Queen dying but forced mourning isn't for me. I respect the right of any individual who chooses to grieve for whichever famous person they want to but stopping football isn't something I'd have done.

It should have been allowed to go ahead and those who wanted to sit at home grieving or stand outside a palace to pay their respects to the Queen would still have been free to do so whilst those who wanted to watch a match would also make that choice.

Paul Hughes
11 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:00:09
I think it is the correct decision. It is an appropriate mark of respect to honour the 70 years of service of the Queen.

The Premier League is a global brand representing the country, so I think it is more than virtue signalling.

Les Callan
12 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:02:11
Ridiculous decision.
Mick Roberts
13 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:06:02
I totally disagree.

Life goes on.

Jim Bennings
14 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:06:36
A football season that for Everton hasn't got going and with the absolutely ridiculous World Cup schedule in December still won't feel like it's got going until January. (Or is something else happening in January that will force a delay?)

I'm all for paying respect, black armbands, applause, silence but postponements in football have become far too common place in the past 2 years, we didn't need another one tomorrow.

Jim Bennings
15 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:12:12
Next week's fixtures also set to be cancelled, I'm hearing.

That means clubs will not play another fixture now until October.

What a complete farce that is.

Pete Neilson
16 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:13:07
A mawkish decision.
Nicolas Piñon
17 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:13:58
Good for getting players back.

Maybe it could be useful.

Who knows?

Danny O’Neill
18 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:17:48
She was my Queen and I swore allegiance to her, giving up many rights that people take for granted. If I want, I can wear 8 medals at Black Tie Dinner Nights or on Remembrance Day, most with her figure on one side. I don't by the way.

I will pay my respects by my own will, but agree, it shouldn't be enforced. Each to their own. That's why we all live in a free and democratic society.

They should have gone ahead with the fixtures and done armbands, silence, applause. I'm quite sure she would have wanted it that way.

I guess it at least stops that lot booing and singing that song.

Chris Corn
19 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:20:14
Life goes on... like it's someone random who's passed on. Regardless of the rest of her family, she is one of the most influential, revered and loved women the world has ever seen. The sole reason tourists pile in and spend billions on our economy.

She is our identity as a nation and, in my opinion, kept us relevant as a nation. As someone from a mixed-race Jamican and English background, I am proud of her and mourn her loss.

And it won't just be a case cancelling for the sake of it. Police nationwide will be now en route to London in the run-up to the funeral. Liverpool is already stretched to the limit due to the three murders. The games won't be able to be policed adequately. This scenario has been planned for years regardless of any subplots.

Plus, we avoid a tough away game v Arsenal, remain unbeaten in five and have a load of players, closer to fitness. Best case scenario for me.

Craig Harrison
20 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:24:35
If next weekend's Premier League games get cancelled as well, will the teams playing in Europe also have those games canceled?
Matthew Williams
21 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:31:13
I agree with the postponement of games for this weekend,this is an unprecedented moment for our country.

As for next weekend?... anyroad as others have posted, it gives our injured players further chances to heel and we could meet the Gooner's at a more favourable time of the season.

If our game did go ahead on Sunday, I could only see another heavy defeat for our lads, especially with Pickford not playing with a thigh injury.

Steavey Buckley
22 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:33:24
Horse racing the sport of kings, very much associated with the late queen, who adored horse racing as her first love, will be back on this Sunday.

Football, the working class's game, working-class people less likely to be loyalists and monarchists, will probably be cancelled next week as well. Couldn't make it up.

Anthony Murphy
23 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:40:36
We don't have European footy so a couple of postponed games will be easier for us to fulfil compared to some others – which may be a blessing.

I'd be okay with a minute's silence – allows the average bloke a way of paying respect.

Bill Gienapp
24 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:42:29
I'm not complaining - the more matches we have Pickford and Calvert-Lewin available for, the better. This benefits us.

Of course, we Yanks also have the NFL season starting this weekend, so we'll still get our sporting fix.

Phil Smith
25 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:43:26
I wanna see us carry on as much as the next man, but I'm actually with this one. It's too easy to just not think and continue (Keep Calm and Carry On) with life as normal, and maybe she would have preferred it that way, but it is a mark of respect to take some time and dwell on her life the weekend.

They'll rearrange the games and it gives our walking wounded some extra time to heal. We're all in the same boat. Think this benefits us more than most other teams. It's a good thing, lads.

Raymond Fox
26 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:50:12
Good point about the police situation, Chris #19.

As for the Royals, I'm one who tolerates them, their history through the centuries doesn't make for pleasant reading.
I'm sorry she's died, she seemed a nice person, but she's led a very privileged life to a great age.

If she was asked, I think she would have said let the sporting events take place as normal.

Bill Watson
27 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:56:04
Chris #19

"The sole reason tourists pile in and spend billions on our economy". What a silly comment. Tourists would still flock here whether we were a monarchy or a republic, just as they do to Paris, Berlin and Prague etc.

Personally, I'm not in favour of sport being cancelled but as, in this instance, it means our injured players (at least six of them) will probably miss fewer games, I'll gladly take it.

Joe McMahon
28 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:56:25
For this weekend, I agree it's the correct decision.
Tony Abrahams
29 Posted 09/09/2022 at 12:56:47
Giving my opinion, it's a back-to-front decision, especially if games are allowed to take place next weekend. If games also don't take place next weekend, then this is going to cause a lot of problems later on in the season, especially because there is also an international break looming...

I'd have cancelled next weekend's fixtures, because this is when the Queen will be laid to rest, but even the kids' grassroots games have now been cancelled this weekend.

So life stops for the Queen, but never when a soldier is killed carrying out National duties abroad, is something that could never sit pretty with me.

Will Mabon
30 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:12:35
Any chance of a Bank Holiday out of it?
James Marshall
31 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:14:09
Daft decision - why anyone cares about some posh old lady dying is beyond me. For those of us who don't have a nationalist or monarchist bones in our bodies, stuff like this is just an annoyance.

Also, she loved sport (especially the gee-gees) so stopping it all seems dumb to me. On a more practical note, I guess they need all the rozzers available to police the baying cretins who'll no doubt congregate around her big house in London draped in Union Jacks.

Peasants truly are revolting.

One plus is extra time for our injured cohorts to regain their strength.

Danny O’Neill
32 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:16:10
On my last tour, in 6 months between 2009 - 2010, we sent back 69, Tony, on a seemingly weekly basis. They never released the exact figures, but roughly times that number by 4 for those who suffered life-changing injuries. In other words, loss of limb(s) or eyesight.

And that doesn't include mental health issues for young people who witnessed things they probably knew they would but didn't really think they would. Reality is a different thing from talk about what might be.

But we carried on – it's what we were programmed to do. I don't want to get morbid, but I do think there is a balance between showing respect, remembrance and just carrying on in a very British fashion. I agree, cancelling next week would have been more appropriate, but personally, I'd have just carried on and shown respect.

Dave White
33 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:19:24
I am surprised at this decision, especially given the difficulties of getting games played in a World Cup year. I don't really see what it will achieve either.

But as others have said, it allows more time for injured players to recover, and away to the Gunners is certainly a fixture I'll happily play later on when the squad has (hopefully) continued to gel further.

Christy Ring
34 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:21:47
As an Irish Evertonian I totally respect the decisions that have been made.

It will give Gueye, Garner, Doucouré, Maupay and Calvert-Lewin more time to get match fit, which will be a huge boost.

Chris Corn
35 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:23:12
Bill 27, you are talking shit mate. End of. Kidding yourself.
Tony Abrahams
36 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:33:31
Reality sorts the men out from the boys, Danny, and this is probably when the quiet man keeps on going, and some of the biggest of mouths suddenly turn into Franciscan Monks.

I've never seen any wisdom in war, Danny, especially because the people who send the soldiers in are usually thousands of miles away.

I've never been into the Royal family either, but the Queen came across as a very dignified human-being, and it's why I could understand life stopping for her funeral, but in the meantime, I think life should definitely go on.

John Raftery
37 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:37:13
A daft decision. I have never been anti-royal but I am becoming more pro-republican by the minute.

So the economy will take another hit. I wonder if we will hear any bleating about that from the captains of industry or the right wing factions of the governing party.

Kieran Kinsella
38 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:40:01

I'm not a fan of war either but sometimes it's necessary – most obviously WWII.

Paul Christian
39 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:45:21
I wonder if fox hunting is to be cancelled this weekend?
Mick O'Malley
40 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:46:17
Bill @25,

I'm a big NFL fan, so I can get my sports fix at the weekend, watched the Bills demolish the Rams last night, Von Miller was “Balling”.

Are all sporting fixtures cancelled at the weekend cos I'm looking forward to Rugby League playoffs between Salford and Huddersfield tomorrow and the British touring cars Sunday

Tony Everan
41 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:47:44
I think the media tsunami is affecting decisions. There was no need to cancel. Life goes on, matches could have been played and well thought out respects at each ground could have been observed.

Most people are upset and do care, but also they don’t want to wallow in grief for days on end. I bet the Queen herself wouldn’t have wanted them to either.

Kieran Kinsella
42 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:47:54
I'm not surprised. The last 20 years the government have really hyped up Royal events – party in the park, jubilee, the Olympics taking place down Pall Mall – as a sort of way to unify the country in a way we haven't really seen since Victorian times.

Cynically, you could say it distracts from the economy, crime, Brexit etc. When I was a kid, the Royals were more aloof but the Tories have played this patriotism card for a while and so I'm not surprised the Premier League felt pressure to halt things.

Kieran Kinsella
43 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:51:21

Regarding the Rams, I was wondering for some reason when I awoke if rams as in sheep are called such cause they ram their head in things and were therefore named after battle rams? Or was it the other way around?

Or was it just coincidence that two words spelt the same way with some shared connotations evolved independently?

Christine Foster
44 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:52:12
It's all very British, and many would say it's alien to who they are but the Queen gave her life in service to uphold that ideal, that tradition. Respect to a monarch who, to the rest of the world, epitomized being British.

Some may question its relevance today, but irrespective of that she deserves the respect for her impact in today's world. She was a queen who lived through our history, the future is with us.

Of football, of life, respect should be shown – what is appropriate? The days of mourning now are considered by some to be irrelevant but she was a head of state, a symbol and for many an icon. Do we care to be inconvenienced for a weekend?

David Ellis
45 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:52:51
I am over from Hong Kong and have tickets for the West Ham game on Sunday and the Saints Rugby League semi-final on the Saturday for my daughter and I.

If the Everton game is postponed, then I simply can't go – it would be my first chance to go to Goodison in 7 years – and probably my last chance ever. Fingers crossed we "keep calm and carry on" like the Queen would have wished.

Indications are that Rugby League will just carry on – so not a total wash out for me.

James Marshall
46 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:53:44
The rugby is on, so is the Grand Prix and the boxing.

So why not the footy?


Pete Clarke
47 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:55:06
It's a silly decision by the Premier Leagueand probably comes down to them not wanting to be scowled at by this modern righteous world. The games could have been played and the crowd at each stadium could have sang God Save The Queen to show their appreciation for her service or whatever it was she did. She came across as nice enough but I doubt she would give a commoner like myself the time of day.

Having said that, has there ever been a series of bad (corrupt) decision as allowing a World Cup to take place during the European football season, allowing a World Cup to take place in a country like Qatar with all of the human rights issues etc and worst of all decisions was for every single nation to go along with it instead of boycotting the World Cup?

Eddie Dunn
48 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:55:13
The fact that the cancellation will give Calvert-Lewin, Doucouré and Pickford more time to heal is lucky but Gana and others need matches to get sharp – not training.

I would like the games to go ahead, as I like watching football and I am already sick of hearing all of the waffle on the radio.
I liked the Queen but I think a minute's silence at football grounds up and down the land would have given people a chance to pay their respects.

It has probably been cancelled to help that other German and his tired troops to recover from their thrashing by Napoli.

Derek Wadeson
49 Posted 09/09/2022 at 13:59:32
For our next home match, why don't we play in our Royal Blue jerseys with no mention of sponsors and a black armband? Then we as Everton will have done our bit.

Cancelling matches, as much as it is to our advantage at the moment, seems a little strange when the Sport of Kings will still be going ahead.

David Ellis
50 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:01:40
I heard that for Premier League there may be an issue with police resources... not sure I get that – maybe for the funeral, but surely not this weekend.

And anyway they cancelled all football, including the WSL.

Mark Rankin
51 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:03:47
All the kids' football is off too which I think is the right decision as I'll be keen to get up early and sit down with the family in front of the BBC and spend the day paying our respects to and reflecting on the amazing life of the Queen.
Brent Stephens
52 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:08:26
Steavey #22 "Horse racing, the Sport of Kings, very much associated with the late Queen, who adored horse racing as her first love, will be back on this Sunday."

Well, that's disgraceful. Not in itself because racing is on but because of the dual standards. So much for respect. Ah, I get it, respect is expected more from some of us than from others.

Andrew Ellams
53 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:09:19
The cricket Test Match will resume on Saturday.
James Lauwervine
54 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:09:50
Fucking ridiculous and pathetic. What has the Queen dying got to do with football fixtures being played? Absolute nonsense.
Paul Hewitt
55 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:23:06
At least rugby league is still on tonight.
Tony Abrahams
56 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:23:38
Because I'm not a royalist, Kieran, I don't really understand, but do you think it's because the government is maybe aware, and therefore also concerned, that the Royal family might be at a major crossroads?

I ask because I thought that after the celebrations earlier this year, and with the Queen also losing her husband last year, that she might have then abdicated her throne, but maybe didn't want to give it to her oldest son?

Forgive my ignorance, and maybe it's something I don't really need to post right now, but it's definitely something I do find curious.

Jeremy Benson
57 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:34:11
Football is probably different because it places large demands on police resources for crowd control which are now needed for other things like organising and securing the funeral and the days to come.

In the original "London Bridge" plan, there was a large concern around the amount of people who would travel to London to pay respects etc in the immediate days following the Queen's death and whether the city and transport system would be able to cope.

Granted these resources and extra transport demands may not have affected some distant locations etc but probably an easier decision.

Bill Gall
58 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:34:31
I can see that there are 2 sides to this and my own beliefs are the decision is correct, and I respect those who believe it is incorrect, I suppose it could work out to roughly 50/50.

The one thing that stands out to me is, we as supporters could have had the opportunity if it was not cancelled, as a sign of respect, not go to the game. None of the players, coaches, managers, or anyone ensuring the game went ahead would have had that opportunity.

James Marshall
59 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:38:58
Another thing just struck me – what about all the people who will lose loads of money on tickets, travel, accommodation etc for the games at the weekend? Working class people. Not to mention those that will lose revenue in their own jobs/companies that rely on sporting events.

It's a joke. The powers that be don't give a damn about the working people of this country – and here we are entering an enormous social crisis in this stupid little country. Lots of people who are in low-paid, insecure jobs will lose out. Ridiculous. Yet again it's the little man who suffers.

Andrew Ellams
60 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:39:33
Very true, Bill. I saw a tweet earlier from the comedian Jon Richardson who is offering full refunds to anybody who doesn't want to attend his gig tonight.
Roy Mcleod
61 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:41:10
Certainly don't want to start a monarchy 'flame war' on here but some statements really need to be challenged and I'm tired of one particular oft-trotted-out piece of misinformation.

Chris@19. The Queen is... "The sole reason tourists pile in and spend billions on our economy."

I'm sorry but this is absolute horse wallop. Tourists come here to see the historic buildings, the sights... not the Queen or any other member of the Royal Family.

Have people stopped visiting the Palace of Versailles since the removal of the French monarchy?... No, they go to see the buildings and gardens.

It's also worth noting that in terms of visitor figures the houses that are actual residences of the Royal Family (Kensington Palace, Clarence House and Buck House) don't even come in the top 100 visitor attractions in this country.

BTW...Visitors to Versailles...10 Million per year.

Tom Bowers
62 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:43:48
For those anti-royalists and those who just don't understand, it's natural to be cynical about the cancelling of sports events for one even two days, let alone a weekend, but for everyone else, it is a mark of respect.

However, whilst very few of us knew the Queen Elizabeth personally, she was the head of state for all British people for 70 years and in that respect we did come to know her as someone who, despite the apparent grandeur she was born into, served us well right to the very end as well as being respected throughout the World.

Giving up one weekend of sport is a small sacrifice to honor her.

Jay Harris
63 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:44:33
Looking at it in a very mercenary way ,it will be like the pre-season we never had with Onana, Guye, Garner and Maupay all getting indoctrinated into the Lampard way of football, with the added benefit of Calvert-Lewin, Doucouré and Pickford all having a chance to get their fitness resolved before we play.

I would have dreaded playing Arsenal without Calvert-Lewin and Pickford.

As for the Queen, I don't have a lot of respect for the Royal Family, who are descended from robbers and rapists, but in her case, I will make an exception. She had an air of dignity and principled grace that I don't think Charlie will ever come near.

Hugh Jenkins
64 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:47:34
Clearly, this is a matter determined by the governing bodies of the various sports concerned.

The governing bodies of Association Football in the UK have decided to cancel all fixtures as a mark of respect for the passing of the Queen.

What other bodies do, is, of course, up to them.

Although I am disappointed that we won't play this week(the choice was never mine to make), I am glad that our sport is showing respect for our head of state.

Bobby Mallon
65 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:47:39
She was our Queen and there should be no sport next weekend either. She will be buried 10 days after her death, that's Sunday 18th by my calendar. London will be at a standstill, no way can sport be played. Respect.
James Marshall
66 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:50:37
Happily Bobby, I read that they'll pop her in the ground on Monday 19th so we'll get a day off out of it all at least (employers' discretion, so I hear). Maybe another day off when they give Charlie the big hat as well.

I have zero interest in these lizard creatures, but I'll take the free days off no problem!

Mark Ryan
67 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:53:43
A security and policing decision, nothing more, but it is wrapped up in a respect blanket.

I'm sure there are massive headaches going on in and around the Police Service with this one. It makes sense to simply have a blanket "pause".

Above my pay grade but I suspect many games could have gone ahead but several had to be stopped due to security and policing concerns. There is a domino effect happening that we don't see.

RIP Lizzie. Love her or loathe her, she worked harder than Morgan Schneiderlin ever did... lol!

Mark Rankin
68 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:54:17
She was your Queen, Bobby, and you are welcome to pay your respects as you see fit.
Hugh Jenkins
69 Posted 09/09/2022 at 14:57:53
James (59),

The little man you are worried about lives in probably one of the safest and best countries in the world. One of the things that makes it so is that we have a Monarch as the head of state, who does not possess the right, any longer, to make laws.

It is this that stops us ending up having lunatic presidents like that idiot Trump. For that I thank God, that this "silly little country", still has a Monarchy.

James Marshall
70 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:01:53
Nonsense, Hugh. I don't buy that at all.

Best country? Have you seen the cretins running the show? People living in poverty, food banks, energy crisis, the disparity between rich & poor widening with every breath.

Sorry but I don't subscribe to this notion that I should somehow bow down and be thankful for these rich people who lord over us.

You might be happy with your role as serf, I for one am not, and never will be.

Monarchs don't make laws, and they don't make political decisions, so I don't really see your point at all. We're run by Old Etonians who suck up all the money and give it out to their rich friends while the rest of us scuttle around eating the scraps.

Best country, my arse.

Neil Halliwell
71 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:04:24
Much better to have allowed the games to go ahead and ask for a minutes applause before kick-off to celebrate her life and service to the nation.
Andy Meighan
72 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:06:03
Well said, James Marshall 59.

Let's have some perspective here, she was 96 and lived an unbelievable life. It's not like when Diana died, she was only a young woman who left two very young sons behind. The Queen has got a son in his 70s.

I for one won't be mourning her and cancelling football is a quite frankly ridiculous decision. The calendar is congested enough with the corrupt World Cup going ahead in November. Would have been interesting if she had died a couple of days before that kicked off.

Kieran Kinsella
73 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:18:31

"As for the Queen, I don't have a lot of respect for the Royal Family, who are descended from robbers and rapists."

So are you, statistically speaking, assuming you're referring to royals of old?

They reckon 90 percent of people in England are direct descendants of Edward III. In my family tree, he pops up as Great Grandad x 23. Yet I don't really feel responsible for his Grandad knocking off Braveheart.

Andrew Ellams
74 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:24:46
Kieran — 90%?

He must have been a boy in his time.

Michael Lynch
75 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:26:24
I think they should let the football carry on as usual, with the exception of the RS with all their "scouse not British" boo-the-national-anthem bollocks. They should be deducted points and made to clean up after the horses on the day of the funeral.

Yeah, I know we also have some of that, but we don't make cunts of ourselves with quite the regularity of the RS. Possibly because we never get to Wembley, so don't get the chance to boo the national anthem.

Anyway, on your behalf, I popped down to Buckingham Palace today and it was all quite sweet – not hysterical like when Di died, but a kind of respectful family day out kind of vibe. People of all ages, races, nationalities, and classes, friendly coppers, big smelly horses, flowers all over the place.

I'm cynical about all this stuff, but I kind of got it – everything that we've all lived through over the past decades, she's been there, a symbol of a nation that has changed so much in her time. And in London today, possibly the most multi-cultural, vibrant city in the world, you see that balance between what has gone before and what is now, and she's part of it all.

But cancelling sporting events? Nah, I don't think so. You don't need to bring life to a halt to show respect and, as others have said, she did love her gee-gees so I doubt she would approve.

Eddie Dunn
76 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:26:59
James @70 - well said!
Tom Bowers
77 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:36:12
Wow, there is a lot of hatred being shown here by some people. No wonder the country is in a mess and the world to boot.

Selfishness does not belong in a democratic environment. Everyone should put it aside and show some respect for 48 hours.

Bill Watson
78 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:50:23
Hugh #69

We certainly don't live in a democracy. Can you name another European country which has an unelected Head of State and an unelected Prime (or first) Minister?

The monarch is at the apex of an Establishment which exists to maintain the status quo.

Wasn't there a recent news story about the royals attempting to interfere with proposed legislation?

Mark Taylor
79 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:50:46
No hatred from me, but I think it is a poor decision by the EPL to do this and, unless there are real difficulties with policing – which would say a lot and not in a good way – then the games should have gone ahead.

People will lose money because they aren't. I don't believe the Queen herself would have wanted that after all, she started off 70 plus years ago saying she wanted to serve us to the best of her abilities.

Dan Stone
80 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:52:52
Agreed Tom. As a mark of respect it is fine by me. Nobody forces mourning or the opposite on anybody else.
Barry Cowling
81 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:53:08
I can't believe some of the insensitive selfish comments on here.

I have seen no mention by anyone about the players, some may be royalists and want to mourn the Queen's death, and not at all keen to play a game of football. Yes, it will add to the disruption of the fixtures but that affects every team, and will be more of an issue for those in European competitions.

And as for ridiculous comments about tourists not being bothered by the Royal Family, how many millions go to see the changing of the guard and all the other fanfare etc?

This is a Royal Family that is revered over the world. I am no great Royalist but I understand its significance both in terms of stature and tourism.

Now, come on lads, where is your romance?

Pete Neilson
82 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:56:03
Looking at the history books, in 1952 when King George VI died all matches continued as normal including FA Cup games on the day that his death was announced. Was that really a less respectful time towards the monarchy than now?

Better to play the games with a minute of silence or some such display of respect. For those who wanted to stay home and reflect, obviously they could do so.

Danny O’Neill
83 Posted 09/09/2022 at 15:58:45
Old Etonians? I think Cameron and Boris fall into that category, but I can't think of many other Prime Ministers in my lifetime (born 1971) that do. Happy to be corrected.

The current and new one originated from Paisley, west of Glasgow and grew up in Leeds.

Politically I'd describe myself as a moderate. Probably because of Queen Elizabeth II, I'm a Monarchist.

Descending from robbers and rapists? I guess that writes off most of Scandanavia then?

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
84 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:09:33
To those complaining about having to fund the Royal Lifestyle.

The Royal Family is funded from the Crown Estates. These were built up over time by the various Kings and Queens and used to finance the government. As government grew then the funds were not enough and 260 years ago the King gave all the income from the estates to the government.

In effect, the Royal Family are taxed at 75% on the income from the Royal Estates. Do you know what, I think I prefer them getting 25% to employ all those people than have President Blair or President Cameron.

Danny O’Neill
85 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:11:59
I'll go back to previous, we are always all too willing to beat ourselves up as a country. Try visiting other countries and you'll see real poverty versus hardship. And I'm not playing it down. I know my roots and I'm a charitable person. I left a broken home and was technically of no fixed abode had it not been for my Auntie and Uncle on Central Avenue in Speke.

But if anyone thinks it's all great in Europe, think again. The cities of Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Eastern Europe all have similar, if not worse problems than us.

And they don't have services like the NHS who my American colleagues will not have a bad word said about despite our insistence on beating up every Government since I remember for not supporting it. And don't start me on southern Italy or Cyprus, let alone some of the other places I've been to.

The grass isn't always greener in my experience.

Technically it (the Royal Family) is elected for. We vote for the system we know and understand. The UK isn't ruled. It is governed by consent of the people. The people chose the Government and the system, which includes a constitutional monarchy.

By consent. We are not dictated to. We have a choice. We choose.

Mark Ryan
86 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:14:49
The postponement is not just about mourning. It is also about a monumental policing and security issue which stems from The Met not being able to cope and so the knock-on effect sends ripples right across the country.

All military, policing and security days off and leave will be binned off in coming days and this will have huge demands on the security of the country and not just where Royalty is concerned.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
87 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:14:55
Danny - bit like being an Evertonian. Oh wait, no, we were chosen.
Brent Stephens
88 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:14:56
Hugh #69

"One of the things that makes it so is that we have a Monarch as the head of state, who does not possess the right, any longer, to make laws."

Hugh, there was a revelation not long ago that the monarch is personally consulted, in secret, on any proposed legislation that would affect her estates. So I suspect the monarch might have an inappropriate influence to block proposed legislation.

The Guardian, 27 June 2022 "A Scottish government memo obtained by the Guardian reveals that “it is almost certain” draft laws have been secretly changed to secure the Queen's approval.

"Under an arcane mechanism known as Queen's consent, the monarch is routinely given advance sight of proposed laws that could affect her personal property and public powers. Unlike the better-known procedure of royal assent, a formality that marks the moment when a bill becomes law, Queen's consent must be sought before the relevant legislation can be approved by parliament."

Kieran Kinsella
89 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:15:00

In 1952, they cancelled rugby and hockey, just not football.

Was it because those were the "gentlemen's sports" as opposed to the working class? Or maybe what with WWII just a few years beforehand, the spectre of death was something people were all too familiar with so it wasn't so out of the ordinary?

Beyond that though, George VI was only the King for a few years, and his errant brother for a few years before that. So people of that time weren't like many of us who have only ever known one monarch our entire lives.

I'd say it's more like when Victoria died. She had a huge send-off after 60 odd years which was much grander than her predecessor or successor, presumably because, as now, she was the only monarch most people ever knew.


On the Old Etonian debate, wasn't John Major's dad a professional clown?

Michael Kenrick
90 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:16:40
Well said, Danny.

When it comes to those who are somehow privileged to live in this "silly little country" that you fought for and could have easily laid down your life for, I have to wonder if they have the experience of living anywhere else?

I suspect not.

But then is it any surprise? We have the media intent on parading opposition politicians to counter every news article with the prime purpose of having 'Shadow' ministers etc decry everything that is being done and subliminally reinforcing the erroneous conviction that everything about this country is rancid and rotten.

All in the interests of 'balance', of course.

Kieran Kinsella
91 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:21:11

I think Norway is supposedly the "best place to live" according to lifestyle metrics. But having a ton of oil, plentiful wood and fish, and a small population they're at something of an advantage when it comes to sharing the pie.

That being said, freezing cold weather, a few hours of sunlight in winter, and having to eat herring are all factors that would impact my quality of life versus Old Blighty.

Ian Edwards
92 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:21:38
Ridiculous decision. So, we have to carry on working all week and can't watch sport at the weekend. I despair of this hand wringing, maudling Country.
Roger Helm
93 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:25:01
A minute's applause is what former managers get. I don't think a day off for football and racing is excessive.
Ian Edwards
94 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:28:50
Roger 93.

Most football supporters have not met the Queen.

A minute's silence is sufficient for someone I've seen on the TV.

Paul Kossoff
95 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:31:37
Danny 85, all due respect but utter bull!

We are dictated to and told what to do. They make you think you have a choice but we don't, because whoever the government is, it doesn't matter. The government itself is dictated to by far higher powers than them. They like us are just puppets.

We have been controlled by the pandemic, now the energy crisis. Frighten a people and you control them. Put them in a position of utter hopelessness and then ride in on the white charger to save the day from the utter chaos they caused.

No, we are not a free people. No one is, just ask the USA.

I'm sorry the Queen died, but then again I'm a complete anti-royalist, just like my dad who did fight for this country, against the regime that was going to put our gracious abdicated King George back on the throne as the puppet king under Hitler's Nazi thumb.

God save the country for the people.

Mike Gaynes
96 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:33:59
Danny O and Tony A, enjoyed your exchange of views on this.

When President Kennedy was assassinated on a Friday, the commissioner of the NFL ordered that all the games games scheduled for that Sunday be played. Several team owners asked for postponements, but he rejected them. In later years he called it the worst decision of his life.

Michael Kenrick
97 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:39:51
Uh oh... we've had the lizard people...

Next: The Illuminati and the World Economic Forum...

Kieran Kinsella
98 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:42:16

What kind of government or society would you prefer?

We (humans) have been around for millions of years and we tend to gravitate towards the same kind of systems over and over again with the same kind of flaws being exposed.

That would suggest to me that there is some inherent trait in humans that prevents us from having a utopia of the type imagined by theorists on the right and left.

Danny O’Neill
99 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:44:56

Norway also has a higher rate of mental health and depression as well (sadly) suicide rates than the UK. Having spent time in the country the opinion of the locals and related issue is the restriction on and high taxes which results in excessive price on alcohol, which drives people to moonshine / home brew.

Strong stuff Paul and thanks for the constructive response.

We don't live in a dictatorship. We choose the Government and it is held to account. I personally think what you are talking about is the fear that the media puts into people. They dictate the narrative, especially the BBC, which I begrudge my TV licence fee.

King George actually stood up to Hitler, alongside Winston Churchill, when his predecessor flirted with the dictator at the Berghof and the Chamberlain Government tried to push for a pact with the Devil. As did many politicians during the early years of WW2.

Frank Crewe
100 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:45:02
Don't forget the funeral will be next Sunday. My betting is they'll postpone any games then as well. After that it's the international break. So it could be four weeks before the Premier League starts up again. At least it gives us time to get Pickford, Doucoure and Calvert-Lewin fit.
Paul Kossoff
102 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:49:07
Kieran 98,

"What kind of government/society would you prefer?"

A bloody country where everyone was equal, no poverty, no one scared when the bills come in, no one having to make a choice about eating or heating. A country where the government is running the country for the people, not for the billionaires to make even more money! Wake up!

Kieran Kinsella
103 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:51:23

Norway has got its act together since you were there, according to the World Health Forum:

"In 2019, Sweden had 14.7 suicides per 100,000 people. Historically, Sweden has had a high suicide rate, with the most suicides in the developed world during the 1960s. That may have been due, at least in part, to cultural attitudes regarding suicide and long, dark winters, particularly in the northern regions. The government responded to the crisis with social welfare and mental health services, and the numbers have dropped dramatically.

"Today, Scandinavian countries – Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland – have very high happiness rates and relatively low suicide rates. However, the dark winters – 20 hours of darkness or more in each day in some areas – causes seasonal affective disorder (SAD), a form of depression, which has been known to correlate with higher rates of suicide."

James Marshall
104 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:53:25
Michael@90 and 97

Yes, actually, FYI I've lived here, the US and Thailand and I reserve the right to refer to the UK as a 'silly little country' given that I was (accidentally) born here, and have lived here on & off for the best part of 40 years - the others spent in the aforementioned countries (I'm nearly 50). I pay my taxes and will continue to refer to it as a silly little country, monkey island (as they say in Frankfurt), or whatever I see fit.

I'm not sure why my views on the way this country is run have irritated you to say what you said, but quite frankly it's assumptions like yours that get my back up.

This is an open forum and I'm entitled to my views & my say on the matter like everyone else is. For you to suggest that I'm somehow small minded (my own assumption!) is exactly that in itself.

This is an Everton message board, but if a post comes up other than football and that involves something as divisive as the monarchy, then you're get to get people spilling their guts one way or another.

On the lizard people joke - it's exactly that, a piss-take. Something that British people are well known for. Now you assume I'm sort sort of conspiracy theorist or something which is so far from the truth you haven't a clue. For whatever reason I've clearly triggered you, but if you have something to say, say it, don't resort to petty attempts to bait me (which you've achieved - well done you).

Also, I have had the 'thrill' of meeting both the Queen and Prince Philip. They were both unremarkable human beings in every sense.

Kieran Kinsella
105 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:54:10

That sounds nice but how do you go about establishing it?

If you took away everyone's jobs and properties today and reallocated everything equally, what would happen when one person notices his neighbor is slacking off, not pulling his weight at work or indeed working at all? Or when someone else steps in and covers the slack? Should they continue to get an equal share of the pie?

Mike Gaynes
106 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:54:30
Quick question... I assume that traveling supporters with tickets for flights or trains simply lose the money they've spent?

Tough also on the people who work at the venues and will lose a day's pay.

Jerome Shields
107 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:54:38
Kieran #98,

I know someone who lives there. He and his partner could not believe how much less the prices in the UK are in comparison.

Danny O’Neill
108 Posted 09/09/2022 at 16:57:33
A great ideology, Paul. One most people would want, but not a reality, unfortunately.

I think Lenin tried that with Soviet-led Russia. That went well. The fat cats still ate from the privileged trough whilst the millions went hungry on a scale we don't have in this country. As I've quoted before, all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

I'll take your word for it, Kieran. I guess my point is that we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much. Especially when we're talking about a country with a population of 68 million comparing ourselves to one of 4-5 million (Norway).

Paul Kossoff
109 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:02:56

I'm just wanting a country where no-one is under-valued, no-one is forgotten or cast aside, no homeless people, or operations cancelled.

I can go on, but you are an intelligent man who shouldn't have to ask what I would do to make a better society. You know how this county should be run and it's certainly not the way it is now.

Jim Jennings
110 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:04:51
“Try visiting other countries and you'll see real poverty versus hardship”

Yeah Danny, most of those countries are still dealing with the legacy of imperialism and colonialism by good old Blighty.

But good on you for giving up your human rights to fly out and terrorise a few more Afghans or northern Cypriots.

Chris Leyland
111 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:06:06

That's a very tenuous argument about the monarchy somehow technically being elected. We don't vote for the ‘system ‘ as we've never been offered the chance to vote for a system where we have an elected head of state.

We've had a referendum on whether we should stay or leave the EU but I don't ever recall one about whether we should become a Republic. Let the people decide.

Pete Neilson
112 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:09:08
Mike (106) yes you're correct re supporters travel costs.

But the FA's virtue is intact and that's all that ever really matters. They have their future gongs to consider.

Neil Copeland
113 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:11:25
Mike, yesterday am I was over the moon at getting a ticket for Arsenal away on Sunday. Later in the day I booked the train ticket as there were only 3 seats left. Train tickets are non-refundable so lucky it wasn't a huge amount of money.

However, whilst I feel a bit aggrieved I also feel a bit guilty at feeling aggrieved if that makes sense. Can't win in this situation. It won't stop me respecting the decisions made though, and trying to see the bigger picture.

Kieran Kinsella
114 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:14:16
Jim Jennings,

The countries Danny mentioned were France, Belgium etc where things are far worse in slums surrounding Paris, Mechelen etc.

Also, what a crass remark to make about Danny's service. You realize as a soldier he goes where he is sent firstly.

Secondly, I know he was in Bosnia as a soldier trying to keep the peace and prevent genocide. Not a country Britain ever ruled, or colonized. Just a place where horrors were unfolding and the world community decided to intervene.

Likewise, if Danny was around in WW2 he'd have been fighting the Nazis as would be his job.

Ray Roche
115 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:14:44
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts@84

I thought that the Queen only paid taxes from 1992 when Windsor Castle partly burned down? And following the outcry at the rebuilding costs which were to have been shouldered by the taxpayers (us)?

Danny O’Neill
116 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:14:57
And France Jim, not just the UK. We were not the sole European colonialists.

I agree, colonialism literally drawing lines in the sand has created a lot of contemporary global issues.

I don't think that makes me a terrorist though.

And regardless, if you witness the alternative those people are left to live under, it would make you want to intervene. It still upsets me how the US, UK and the world abandoned Afghanistan. Obviously that is a bit personal, but it still grates.

Dale Self
117 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:17:26
Since this has already degenerated into a discussion of socioeconomic arrangements, let me offer something.

We're not really interested in full equality in terms of distribution, are we? If so, Kieran has it right. I thought the discourse on systems and allocation was the old Rawls vs Nozick debate - and anyone having a better or more recent action on that please share.

This was about Rawls' thought experiment which can be posed as a question: If you were going to be born into world with random chance of arriving in a family's socioeconomic status, how would you want that world organized with respect to wealth distribution?

I think we generally get to a point where we agree there are enough resources to take care of a greater share of people than our present systems attempt. Some of this gets down to real solutions locally once bussing people out of town is exhausted.

Neil Copeland
118 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:20:26
Jim, wow! That was some remark, I think you owe Danny an apology!
Kieran Kinsella
119 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:22:59

Yeah, it was a bit of a shocker even by some ToffeeWeb standards.

Totally out of line from Jim

Chris Williams
120 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:28:55

You can add Portugal and Belgium to that list too.

Roger Helm
121 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:32:35
It is clear that most people here are left-wing republicans who dislike the members of the Royal Family.

But it is worth remembering that there are many people in the country, no doubt including people in the football industry, who are actually feeling quite upset just now.

Dale Self
122 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:33:28
Hey, uh, all I can say is my stuff came in while that other thing blew up. Didn't know or obviously I would have waited for a better time to throw that in.
Michael Lynch
123 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:37:49
Meanwhile the funeral seems most likely to take place on Monday 19th.

I have a feeling next weekend's games will go ahead, not least because the Premier League will struggle to find dates for two rounds of fixtures to shoehorned into the schedule in this weird World cup season, unless they extend the season into next June. Should they do that, the gap between this season and next season will be a bit tight.

If two rounds of games were postponed, we'd have to rearrange fixtures with Arsenal and West Ham, both of whom will be expecting to progress in their European competitions, possibly to at least the quarter- or semi-finals. That means they'll have very few midweek slots available.

Paul Kossoff
124 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:38:33
Pete 112, the FA's virtue is intact?

The Turkish investigation concluded that Khashoggi had been strangled as soon as he entered the consulate building, and that his body was dismembered and disposed of. Turkish investigators, as well as investigations by The New York Times, concluded that some of the 15 members of the Saudi hit team were closely connected to Mohammed bin Salman, (the owner of Newcastle United), the Crown prince of Saudi Arabia, and that the team had traveled to Istanbul specifically to commit the murder.

The FA and virtue don't go together. In fact, the virtue of that body is like its name, FA!

Jamie Crowley
125 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:40:18
Identifying is all the rage these days. This Yank "identifies" as Irish, and I'd echo Brian Hennessy's comments @8. Well said, Brian, and I agree with you 100%. And please forgive the Plastic Paddy Yank.

This thread is really fascinating, and I truly appreciate all submissions. I had no idea that the English had a custom of mourning deceased Monarchs. It's fascinating, and not something we'd do over here. But I think the concept is honorable, and I'm of the opinion that Queen Elizabeth II is more than worthy or such a custom.

The learning facet of TW just keeps a-rollin'.

I'd say to Danny O'Neill, as someone who's had many family members in the military:

James Marshall has forwarded an opinion. I've always contended with my military-serving family members that they fight to protect the rights of a free people. Which means, by definition, you do what you do so that the people of your free country can voice an opinion you don't agree with. That's free speech, it's worth fighting and dying for, even if the actions of those executing their right to free speech is polar opposite of yours. Your protecting their right to be free, and that's your job.

I wonder, Danny, do you agree with that view? I'm not challenging you in the least, I'm genuinely interested in your viewpoint of my opinion. And I'm not trying to pull you in on any conversation you don't want to be involved in! I just wonder, as someone who's served, would you agree with my stance?

I've had this conversation with my brother who served in Iraq about flag burning here in the USA. I personally detest the burning of the flag, and my brother would like to punch anyone who does it. My brother has said, "I fought and almost died for that flag, it shouldn't be burned."

I've countered to my brother with, "You fought and almost died to defend the principles of the flag, not the flag itself. The most key principle embodied in the flag is the freedom of speech. So you fight for the right of citizens to express that freedom of speech, even if you hate its execution in certain circumstances, not the flag itself."

I don't know if this makes any sense, or has turned into the ramblings of a 50+ old fool.

Danny? If you have a second, I'd love to know your opinion on this dynamic.

Pete Neilson
126 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:40:41
Kieran (89) one rugby Five Nations match (England - Ireland) was postponed. Rugby League continued as normal. As for hockey, did anyone notice? Cricket test matches involving Commonwealth countries also continued.

More likely the difference we are seeing is the need for some organisations to demonstrate their worthiness. In my opinion, the PL/FA got this one wrong and may well be regretting it when looking at the response of other sports.

Paul (124), my tongue was firmly in my cheek.

John Williams
127 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:42:30
Sadly, a lot of comments on this thread show what is wrong in the 21st Century in this country.

It's the mee mee mee society that has developed over the last number of years.

Some of you should take a long long look at yourself in the mirror and it saddens me to say so.

Kieran Kinsella
128 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:43:09

Yes. Totally agree on the flag. Some people seem to view it as being innately sacred in its own right as a simple piece of colorful material and forget it is just an image representing a concept.

The English flag while flown doesn't have the same kind of status in and of itself as an item of almost religious significance.

Neil Cremin
129 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:43:59
Firstly, I do think it is the correct decision to postpone fixtures as a mark of respect; however, it will set a precedent for the following weekend when the funeral takes place and games are also likely. From a selfish Everton perspective, it does give us space to get players back.

It is also interesting to see the comments re same which in many ways reflects political affiliations. One comment however struck me as odd by Danny @18:

“I guess it at least stops that lot booing and singing that song.”

Who are you referring to? The English fans who booed the opposition's anthems at the Euros?

Michael Kenrick
130 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:48:13
Sorry for triggering you there, James @104. It was unintentional but I'm happy to accept that you admit to being small-minded – that seems in the circumstances a very fair assumption for you to make. I certainly never said any such thing.

All I can offer is that you don't seem to have appreciated much from this international exposure you have had. But no doubt you will continue to willingly accept the wealth of benefits from the blighted isles that you appear to have chosen to return to and (I assume) make your home? No hypocrisy there, eh, James?

Yes, you're free to pay your taxes and carry on decrying the benefits of living here in one of the greatest countries the world has ever seen. The loss is clearly yours if you have no appreciation for that.

Thanks for your contributions. It's heart-warming to know that I can rely on your personal expertise when it comes to identifying unremarkable human beings.

Jamie Crowley
131 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:50:03
Kieran -

Good to know. Yes, the flag here is near-religious symbolically. As you know, just ask anyone who's served.

I see a lot of parallels with the "Monarch-Institutionalist" stance vs. the "Anti-Monarchist, anti-privilege" folks on this thread. Any Englishman who's served I think would lean towards defending the crown, as it were. And I'm curious to their approach towards those who are critical of such an institution. Are they offended in the same way an American would be towards anyone who burned the flag? Or do they see it as part and parcel of the overall rights of society?

This thread, no matter how tangential, is exactly why I love TW. It is truly fascinating and I love this type of thread with its myriad of opinions to contemplate.

Ed Prytherch
132 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:55:41
I can believe the statement that 90% of English people are descended from Edward III. Three of my four grandparents were and the 4th was Welsh and his ancestors probably hated Edward III.

Even George Washington was descended from him which makes me and George distant cousins.

Tony Sullivan
133 Posted 09/09/2022 at 17:58:04
James Marshall (70) well said.

Michael Kenrick (90) I would be interested to know when you last saw the media presenting politicians as you describe?

Johnson gave pooled interviews which prevents individual questioning and it appears Truss is going to do the same.

Incidentally did anyone ask any of the supporters organisations what they thought about mass postponments?

Neil Copeland
134 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:06:45
Neil #129, I think Danny was referring to the RS supporters who booed the National Anthem at the cup finals and community shield games.
Will Mabon
135 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:07:20
Michael @ 97:

World Economic Forum coupled with lizard people and implied as a risible conspiracy theory?

Surely you're not that unaware - or do you wish others to be?

Martin Mason
136 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:07:47
I don't agree with the British characteristic of addiction to grief porn. I didn't know Her Majesty and so can in no way mourn her. I respect her for the stability she bought and the life of service she gave.

The games should have gone ahead as planned with a celebration of the life of the Monarch.

Simon Dalzell
137 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:09:17
The Queen has been inspiring, magnificent. The rest of them disgust me on the whole. I don't see why sport has to stop. Her Majesty would not have wanted it to.

Unbelievably the Cricket Test Match has been cancelled today, and the time is not being made up. A day has been lost to rain already. Farcical.

Mike Keating
138 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:16:11
For anyone seriously in need of grief therapy, just turn on the BBC. It's been in 24-hour tribute mode since the old girl's passing.

If you want to see two blokes with very little to say, try and squeeze every last drop out of the event, just replay last night's so-called News at Ten with Huw Edwards and Nicholas Witchell - truly toe-curling stuff.

And it looks set to continue tonight but if they postpone episode 1 of Mortimer and Whitehouse's new series of Gone Fishing to make way for yet another mawkish tribute, I'll be returning my recently renewed TV licence.

Neil Cremin
139 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:27:48
Thanks, Neil, for the clarity.

Sounded very unlike Danny.

Still find it amusing how TW threads deviate away from football so easily for people to express political views.

Brent Stephens
140 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:28:49
Mike #106

"I assume that traveling supporters with tickets for flights or trains simply lose the money they've spent?"

Mike, I've today applied for, and received confirmation of repayment for, parking at Runcorn, train to London / tube to Arsenal. No admin charges. Impressive.

Ed Prytherch
141 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:29:25
Jamie 131,

My dad volunteered for the British army in 1939 and was evacuated from Dunkirk the following year and he called the monarchy parasites.

Maybe there is a tendency for the British armed forces to be monarchists but I'm sure that there are many who are not.

Brent Stephens
142 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:32:09
Neil #113 for info, my train ticket was booked with Avanti - Advanced ticket which normally has refund restrictions I think.

No problem with a refund today. try it before you're less than 24 hours in advance of travel time.

Jamie Crowley
143 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:33:25
Neil Cremin,

It deviates from football because it has a very loyal and frequent-using membership base. The contributors "see" one another constantly, and develop relationships because of that.

It's very natural, when you've come to know a person over years, to want to know more about them: their viewpoints, outlooks, opinions, etc., as a person, outside of football.

If deviating from football is troublesome, apologies, but I for one enjoy this type of thread more than the footy ones. So there's at least one example of someone who is grateful these threads with subject matters outside of footy are allowed to be had.

The covid threads were some of the best conversations and debate this site has ever had. I'd argue it's the non-footy threads that help contributors truly "connect".


Paul Washington
144 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:35:22
Ed 132

Are we related?!!!!

Jamie Crowley
145 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:36:10
Ed @141 -

Wow. That's incredible about your Dad. Man that is just unreal. Thanks for sharing.

I'm sure you're right. It's the same over here in many instances. You'll find many Vietnam Vets (most probably gone now, RIP), who'd be very critical of many, many things, leaders, institutions, etc.

I'm painting a broad, assumed majority. Of course we know what happens when you assume. But I think you catch my meaning.


Danny O’Neill
147 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:39:28
I don't need apologies. I'm thick-skinned and have broad shoulders. I can look after myself! A drink and conversation in the Crown, Bramley Moore, Saddle, Dark House or the Royal Oak will suffice.

You don't come on a forum like this to be agreed with all of the time so have to be prepared to take it as much as give it. I try to be reasonable but accept that not all will agree with me. That's life.

I agree with the sentiment of this forum being fantastic for getting different views, even on those not related to Everton. And credit to the editors for allowing the conversation and discussion to flow on subjects like this.

To that end, Jamie @125, for me it's absolutely about freedom of opinion and speech for me. I served the Crown and the Flag, but mostly I was really just hoping we done the job we were expected to do and that we came home safely. It was about your mates; in the moment, flag or country didn't come into the equation.

Did I and do I get frustrated with people when they don't appreciate what they have compared to what I've witnessed? Yes, I won't lie. But they have that entitlement to freedom of choice and speech.

It has been hard-earned. Never underestimate the freedoms and privileges we have. Freedoms don't come for free, but everyone should have them and rightfully so. But sometimes they have to be fought for.

Neil @129, yes the earlier dig was at them for their repeated disrespect. They've been doing it since I can remember. Red London yuppies (to coin an 80s phrase) behaving like they're from Walton Breck Road. But now you mention it, the England fans are a close second as a collective in their disrespect for other nations and their national anthems.

I'll get my coat.

Chris Leyland
148 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:39:52
I’m getting a bit worried about our winless streak in the league - it’s been two monarchs and two prime ministers since we last won
Dale Self
149 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:40:13
Not at all Danny, graceful man.
Dennis Stevens
150 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:43:37
Don't worry, Chris - we've only ever been relegated when there's a King George on the throne!
Jamie Crowley
151 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:43:41
Danny @ 147 -

Thank you for your reply. Excellent reply and one I'd agree with to be sure.

We sing from the same hymn sheet.

Did I and do I get frustrated with people when they don't appreciate what they have compared to what I've witnessed? Yes, I won't lie. But they have that entitlement to freedom of choice and speech.

Well said. Thanks again for your perspective and taking the time to respond.

Kieran Kinsella
152 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:48:08
Also worth mentioning we did try not having a monarch for a while when the Bill Kenwright of politics -- Oliver Cromwell took over. That didn't go well.
Mike Keating
153 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:49:04
Simon @ 137 - you touch on a very important point here.

Whether we found the Queen inspiring or not, the fact that she did her job pretty effectively and was admired by many has deflected attention away from her dreadful family and the institution of the monarchy itself.

This became clear during the 70th anniversary celebrations where questions about inherited position and influence were largely silenced lest they be seen as a personal attack on the Queen herself. I sat through an entire episode of Any Questions, where no-one asked any.

To put it another way, an unfortunate ‘accident' to Prince Charles on a grouse moor in the 1970s and we could be witnessing the coronation of King Andrew and Queen Sarah!

Brent Stephens
154 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:51:54
Dale #117,

"Rawls's thought experiment which can be posed as a question: If you were going to be born into world with random chance of arriving in a family's socioeconomic status, how would you want that world organized with respect to wealth distribution?"

I think Rawls posed the hypothetical question in terms of a "veil of ignorance" as he called it: the parent not knowing anything about their own current socioeconomic background and therefore not knowing anything about their son's life chances; and in that "ignorance" having to choose between, on the one hand, a society with large wealth inequalities in which their son could end up at the bottom of the pile, and, on the other hand, a society with greater equity (not the same as equality but recognising different contributions and needs).

Whenever I've posed that choice to people, I've never once got an answer that says "I'd take the chance of having my children being born into a society in which they're bottom of the pile."

Neil Cremin
155 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:56:23

As I do not get to see all you on a regular basis, I yield to your opinion.

As a loyal Everton fan for over 50 years, and a regular contributor to TW, my primary interest is the team, our performance and most importantly our hopes and aspirations. Hence my observations.

Danny, thanks for the clarity, while reading through the threads, that comment struck me, and I admit I didn't understand it.

Brent Stephens
156 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:56:32
Jamie, your flag-burning point is a subtle but important one. I get it and applaud you for it.
Paul Kossoff
157 Posted 09/09/2022 at 18:58:14
Here is your gracious Queen and her father, King George, teaching our gracious queen the Nazi salute:

Family film shows royal family raising Nazi salute.

f Hitler had won the war, the plan was to put these German descendants on the throne as the puppet royals so the thick flag waving British wouldn't feel too hard done under the Nazi boot?

Jamie Crowley
158 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:00:19
Brent ,

The only flaw with that experiment is it doesn't begin to address the real-world economics, posing the question of which economic system is preferable in reality.

It's an isolated dream-exercise. It's not grounded in reality. A reality which doesn't allow such experiments, I'd posit.

"If you could be born into wealth or poverty, which would you choose?"

"If you didn't know into what strata you'd be born into, what economic model would you prefer for society?"

These questions are simply superficial and don't address anything of significance. Cute. Irrelevant.

I'm not attacking, you're a gem. Just sayin'. That exercise isn't an argument for a non-hierarchical system, redistributive wealth, or anything for that matter. It's just a "what if" fun exercise that draws no conclusions in reality.

Jamie Crowley
159 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:02:48
Hahaha, Brent!

I'm behind on reading.

You compliment me, and then I, in turn, rip your Rawls post!

Oh Lord, I'm thankful you have a good sense of humor(u)r!


Kieran Kinsella
160 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:04:48

It's her Uncle not her father teaching her.

You know when the war came that she worked as an ambulance driver? And her parents stayed in the Palace because they didn't want to run away while the East End residents were being bombed?

Trying to tarnish her legacy with a picture taken when she was a young kid being misled by an actual deviant is really taking this out of context.

Brent Stephens
161 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:08:40
Jamie, by definition it's not a real-world question.

But what would you choose in that thought experiment?

As I say, I've yet to come across any parent who has said they would risk their child's future for their own (the parent's) principles.

Jamie Crowley
162 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:10:02

Honest to God, my reply would be, "Why are you asking me this question? It ain't gonna happen so what's the point? That ain't life!"

Hand on heart!

Brent Stephens
163 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:15:27
Jamie, it's not a question posed because it could happen.

It's asked to see what hypothetical risks people would take with their kids' futures.

Go on, Jamie – what would you choose and why?

Andy Crooks
164 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:16:43
Paul, @157, "thick flag-waving British"

My God... you really do see yourself in a way that most reading that beaut really don't.

Pompous, smug and self-satisfied in your "getting" what the thick plebs don't.

Paul Kossoff
165 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:17:25
Kieran 160, Her uncle, oh okay that's alright then, that's a good excuse. Totally ignore the fact that these people were friends of a monster who killed millions and would have killed millions more.

Ignore a fact that the royals were all German and Hitler sympathizes. But hey, that's okay with you as you are a royalist. No sympathy, no respect for them and their history!

My Dad fought these bastards in the Second World War, his Dad in the first!

This country would have been a hell on earth if Hitler had won, Royals or none, they would have not made a difference.

On a lighter note, Napoli 4 Liverpool 1.

Blimey I needed that 👮👮👮

Dale Self
166 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:19:26
Good man, Brent, I knew I was out on a limb there. Good reset. And thanks for even noticing that after that TW red zone moment.

Kieran Kinsella
167 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:26:30

I am not a royalist. The point is this was 1933 and people all over the world, including Joseph Kennedy, the Irish President De Valera, Lloyd George etc were palling around with that lot for one reason or another.

Perhaps naively thinking they weren't the evil we know they were. So to just try and act like a 7-year-old girl was somehow a Nazi sympathiser is pretty ridiculous.

Alan McGuffog
168 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:27:11
I am a republican. By that, I mean I would like to see the abolition of the monarchy, the House of Lords, the re structuring of Oxbridge University, The Law Society... etc etc.

Saying that, the late Queen was the Head of State. Fact. It is normal and warranted for any nation to stand still for a while in instances such as this, and reflect.

Of course you can always buy into the Sky / BT mantra that there is nothing as sacred as football. Saturday. 3 pm.

Oh... hang on...

Jamie Crowley
169 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:38:44
Brent -

I don't live in the hypothetical. I live in the real world, ergo, the exercise is a waste of time!

But, as I like you (you knew this already), I'll bite.

I know I'd take the safe route, were I posed the question as a younger parent, say under 36 years old.

As an older parent, and knowing what I know now, and having started my own business with zero sales dollars at aged 36 – a laptop, a vision, and nothing else – I'd choose the wealth inequality option. I'd tell my kids to get on with it and work for it.

I'd realize it might not work out. But having the option of working for a better existence, I'd want a society with the opportunity to succeed. That's a bigger gift to my children than a drab world that has no options for success and everyone on the same plane just drudging along.

I'd fear the equal distribution model would create real complacency, bordering on sloth and having no point in striving for a goal. That actually scares the bajeezuz out of me.

So young Jamie, who's a new parent and whose number one job is to protect his kids, wants Utopic Socialism. Older Jamie, who recognizes the beauty in work and the blessing of having the ability to succeed, would throw his kids to the wolves and tell them to get busy.

So both. It depends on what time-continuum you're in, I suppose.

Dale Self
170 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:43:58
Alright that's it, I'm serving up a reheated line:

Under Capitalism, man exploits man. Under Socialism, it is just the opposite.

Did that clear things up?

Dale Self
171 Posted 09/09/2022 at 19:56:09
Ehh, didn't get back in time to erase that. I'm just a bit done with the symbolic terms. We live in mixed economies for the most part and the ideological pole positions are ridiculous frameworks for reasoning through issues.
Brent Stephens
172 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:04:40
Jamie, good man for responding.

I think you don't exactly take on board the principle of the "veil of ignorance" when you suggest what you'd choose as the older you "knowing what I now know". The whole point of the thought experiment is that "veil of ignorance". Interesting that, if it were a younger you with that "veil of ignorance" and no life experiences, then you'd make a different choice.

Small point, but there doesn't need to be an asusmption of total equality – just much less inequality.

When you say "I'd want a society with the opportunity to succeed" – that is the point of the "experiment" – that everybody should have the same life chances (education, family privileges etc) – which clearly isn't the case in reality.

"A drab world that has no options for success and everyone on the same plane just drudging along." There need be no drabness (real life is drab for the have-nots); there's no assumption about drudging along and I'm not sure why that should be the case.

Some would do what are currently poorly rewarded jobs, as now, but not have to see others "earn" vastly greater amounts; and others would do what are currently extremely highly remunerated but for not nearly as much remuneration as now – why would they feel drabness and drudgery?

Do people perfoming those jobs now feel drabness and drudgery? They would have known nothing different and would be earning somewhat more than others and performing probably less odious jobs. You have to assume that "cloak of ignorance" completely.

Good man for responding, Jamie. Regards to those kids of yours.

ps: That "veil of ignorance" would mean that you wouldn't know whether you'd be a blue or red!

Roger Helm
173 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:06:20
Paul Kossoff,

What are you on about? The Royal Family stayed in London in the war to lead the fight, including serving in uniform. Are you mixing them up with Edward and Wallis Simpson?

Either way, she's barely cold, show some respect, would I be abusing your grannie in the same position?

Danny O’Neill
174 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:12:22
With you on the Napoli shout, Paul!

I'm guessing you're a Churchillian? A person who almost single handedly stood up to the Devil when many were calling for a pact with Lucifer himself.

Similarly, I am guessing you didn't back Corbyn. A man who had close and proven connections with known terrorists and you don't approve of terrorism – right?

Paul Birmingham
175 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:17:57
I respect the decision; in my view, it's the right action to take this weekend and likely it seems next weekend.

But all matters Everton, the unforeseen break may help the squad recover from injuries.

Hopefully the picture will be clearer over these next few days, so people can plan their lives.

Hugh Jenkins
176 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:17:58
James (70),

It is, after all a question of opinions. We could, of course, be "living it up" in one of the richest countries in the modern world, in terms of natural resources. Unfortunately, Putin and his crony "robber barons" have grabbed it all, to the detriment of the masses.

Given the choice, I'll stick with the Old Etonians.

Don Alexander
177 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:22:57
She chose to take, regardless of anyone else, responsibility for everything that happens in her family.

To that end she harboured, as they all still do, a criminally sexual deviant who they moved heaven and earth to protect from any accountability.

Other deviant folk in and around Dovecot are at the moment doing the very same thing.

Neil Copeland
178 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:33:04
Brent #142, cheers mate, I am trying to sort it out now.
Tony Abrahams
179 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:34:27
I'm glad you pushed Jamie, Brent, otherwise we wouldn't have got that very wise, he's lived quite a bit of life, and took a few chances, post.

Mike G, I went to work today, and picked up a family of six from Mauritius, a couple from Northern Ireland, and a father and son from Iceland, who were all in Liverpool to watch tomorrow's game.

It got me thinking how many overseas fans does the Premier League attract each week? And if the security forces are stretched, then surely they could bring in the army, especially considering that many soldiers looked up to the Queen, a lot more than any politician?

I don't think I'm being selfish either, but that's because I see the whole purpose of life as living, and if tomorrow's games had gone ahead, some of the tributes might have just been very, very poignant.

Darragh Farrell
180 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:34:36
Danny, 174,

Corbyn was right on the need to engage with all parties in the North to reach an agreement, he was ahead of his time in that regard. Those people you call terrorists now have a democratic mandate. In the meantime you had the Tories calling Mandela and the ANC terrorists.

Kieran, 167, while not a huge fan of De Valera his radio address in response to criticism of Ireland by Churchill was brilliant.

Brent Stephens
181 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:46:04

I've yet to meet Jamie (hopefully one day if he gets over here) but consider him to be a good mate and he's been a very generous person to me and my wife, in spirit and more.

Danny O’Neill
182 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:52:57
Your view, Darragh, and in a free country, you're entitled to it.

The Queen shook hands with a sniper who apparently had blood on his hands. That's conciliatory. I believe Phillip passed the opportunity in the same meeting.

I think the Army would gladly have stepped in Tony. They do work when the other services strike as they have no Union or right to do so.

But they (we - you never leave!!) would gladly have done it. The lads and lasses would have stepped up and as you, probably made the memorial very poignant

John McFarlane Snr
183 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:59:23
Hi Pete [82]

Not wishing to get involved in the political aspect, I believe that the matches should have taken place with the fans paying their respects.

King George VI died on 6 February 1952, and Everton beat Leicester City 2-0 at Goodison on February 9th. I can't recall the game, but I'm sure I would I would have been in attendance and equally sure that a minutes silence would have ben observed.

King George's Mother, Queen Mary, died on 24 March 1953 and if memory serves me right Everton beat Plymouth Argyle 8-4, on Saturday 31 March, and before the game started, her favourite hymn 'Abide with Me' was played.

I watched the Manchester United game last night and the response from both home and away fans was impeccable, and I have no doubt that a similar response would have been forthcoming if this weekend's fixtures had been honoured.

Tony Abrahams
184 Posted 09/09/2022 at 20:59:39
That's very good to hear, Brent.

Your last post started making me think of that great socialist book, The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist, and sadly one of the hardest books I ever tried reading, but at least I had a smile when reading your reply to Jamie. 🤣👍

Iakovos Iasonidis
185 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:08:52
Don't want to insult anyone but we have 2022 and trully it is beyond me how some countries still have monarchy.
Brent Stephens
186 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:09:47
Gee, Tony, The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists is probably the best book I've ever read. Written by Robert Noonan under the pseudonym of Robert Tressell.

I think Noonan is buried in Walton Park Cemetery. A moving and enlightening book of fiction based on some harsh social and economic realities in the early 1900s.

Brent Stephens
187 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:14:20
Tony, "the great money trick" that Frank Owen, the main character, talks about is brilliantly explained.
Danny O’Neill
188 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:14:55
Aside from all the politics, I was hoping to catch up with a few at Arsenal. I guess now it will be Southampton. Are you travelling, Brent??
Brent Stephens
189 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:18:17
Danny, got my ticket and managed to get one for my Portsmouth-based lad as well. Might see you there, Danny? Trains permitting (but I'll drive down if not).
Tony Abrahams
190 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:24:15
The street where I live is named after Robert Noonan Tressel, Brent, and I think I'm now going to have to try and read it again, because of what Jamie described in his very eloquent post, about how you think differently when you are younger.

I was saddened when I first read this book because I felt that the working man kept fucking the working man, but maybe I got this wrong?

I need to start engaging my brain more anyway, because although ToffeeWeb is enjoyable, it's also highly addictive, and can also be quite repetitive (fucking Kenwright) even if the mood did seem slightly better after last week's game.

Danny O’Neill
191 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:30:14
Tony, you just made me laugh out loud in a London pub with the *king Kenwright comment!

Brent, I'll drop you a message. I'll be getting the train from Waterloo so if you're coming through London, let me know. We'll talk offline.

Barry Rathbone
192 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:33:09
Should have been left to the individual. Those wanting to not go, let them stay at home – no need to impose their views on others.
Tony Abrahams
193 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:34:22
Having a drink for the Queen, in what I consider to be the finest city in the world, Danny. 👍
Neil Copeland
194 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:34:55
Danny and Brent, I have a ticket for Southampton too, not sure whether to drive or catch the train yet. Be good to catch up though if possible.
Brent Stephens
195 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:37:52
Tony, I didn't realise there was a road of that name! I've gotta get a photo.

"I was saddened when I first read this book because I felt that the working man kept fucking the working man, but maybe I got this wrong?"

Tony, I think you read that spot on, mate. Unfortunately desperate times can make desperate people of all of us. Desperate working man against desperate working man, driven to it and crushed by a wider system of greed and inequality.

My lad introduced me a while ago to the book Man Is Wolf to Man, a memoir by Janusz Bardach, based on his time during World War II. He was sentenced to forced labor in the Stalinist-era camps in the Kolyma region of Siberia. Men had to live like animals to survive, under harsh treatment. But through it all shone the support that some tried to give each other. Well worth a read, Tony.

As Danny says, harshness in all systems. It's how we deal with that harshness.

Danny O’Neill
196 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:42:13
Indeed, Tony. A glass of Port for the Queen before bed!

Brent, I'll look that book up.

Neil, drop me an email and we can catch up if possible.

Brent Stephens
197 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:43:14
Neil, do you want to pass your phone number on to me via Lyndon / Michael? They're very helpful – use the Contact / Feedback link to them.

Danny / Neil, I'll be going down on the Friday, coming back on the Sunday, so might see you in Southampton match day.

Eddie Dunn
198 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:44:12

That book made a big impression on me. I read it when I was 15. The worrying thing is, the way things are going with the gap between rich and poor growing, we are closer to the hard times of Tressell's book than ever (in my lifetime – I'm nearly 62).

I respected our Queen for her long service.

However, I think the matches should have gone ahead and people could express their thanks or otherwise at the grounds.

I do find the mawkish and repetitive media coverage annoying. I thankfully missed the Diana nonsense in 1997 due to being on holiday in Lanzarote.

The media seem to indulge in this stuff and I expect that the Tories must be quite pleased that this has taken the eyes off the energy bills crisis.

These threads show the breadth of opinion on other things amongst us all is even more divided that our views on football.

Each to his own.

Anthony Dove
199 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:44:57
I loved the Queen but Rugby, Golf and Cricket are back on tomorrow so the Premier League has as usual made the wrong call.

Also, as has been said, she would have been horrified at the decision.

Tony Hill
200 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:51:17
Anthony @199, it's what we do now.

It is The Age of Overreaction and Disproportion; because, you know, it makes us feel all fuzzy and worthy – and sort of religious.

Anthony Dove
201 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:52:38
Iakavos @185 without wishing to insult anyone I can see from your name why the existence
of a monarchy would be beyond you.
Anthony Dove
202 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:58:25
Iakovos. You’re not getting the effing marbles back either.
Kieran Kinsella
203 Posted 09/09/2022 at 21:58:35
There was no Facebook when George VI died so most people probably didn't realize there was a King.
Jeff Armstrong
204 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:00:09
Anthony 199, I don't think she would have been “horrified” at the decision, she didn't really care for “footer” really, did she?

Attended a couple of cup finals where the seat could've gone to someone more interested, but football and the Royals didn't really sync until young Villa Wills became interested, in spite of his Dad “never been to a game”... The King.

Neil Copeland
205 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:01:03
Danny #196, that would be great, I've just sent you my details.

Brent #197, that would be great too! I've asked Michael/Lyndon to pass on my phone number.

Mike Keating
206 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:04:18
Tony @190,

Robert Tressell died in the Liverpool Infirmary on Pembroke Place where there is a plaque to commemorate his life. He was buried in a paupers grave in Walton Park.

The book only got published after his death because his daughter had retained a handwritten copy and never gave up.

Michael McFarlane
207 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:04:24
I respect that there will be a spectrum of emotions and this will affect different people in different ways.

However, on the scales of reckoning of good v bad deeds by the royals, it's shocking to see the absence of a fair assessment. How many opinions are formed in this county, and on this board, solely by the media trash they read.

#84 Phil. I'd like to see the facts behind your conjecture. Perhaps when you get them, you can tell us how much money the royals made from slavery. Only last year that the queen's son expressed sorrow for slavery, but fell short of an apology and most definitely fell short of any financial reparation. I note the queen did not intervene, nor apologise for her late husband’s racist remarks - strange as many have said she was so decent.

#69 Hugh. Monarch’s go one better on legal matters – the monarch has the right to ‘veto’ planned laws being debated and therefore made. This has happened when the bills don’t suit their interests. Some of the bills the queen intervened on before they were passed by parliament relate to wealth or taxation (the monarch’s property investments exempt from inheritance tax as it is). Charles’ £1bn Duchy of Cornwall estate was given special exemptions to prevent his long-standing tenants from the legal right to buy their own homes outright. Special treatment?

Forced mourning – how unreasonable. Stopping kids football? Surely not due to policing issues. Meanwhile, the rugger and the horse racing continues.

Fortunately, it looks like we’ll benefit from the extended break. UTFT!

Tony Hill
208 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:05:45
Kieran @203; as ever, you strike at the heart of it.
Neil Copeland
209 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:11:05
Upon reflection, I think The Queen would have wanted the Premier League to do what the people wanted and felt was the right thing to do. I agree with others that football stadiums are very good at sending out a very powerful and poignant message in situations such as this.

There is footage on social media of the West Ham fans belting out the National Anthem rather than observe a minutes silence. They did it brilliantly in my opinion and not bad for a bunch of Pikeys!

If left to the people, I think the message and depth of feeling would be so much more sincere and heartfelt. To me, that would be very fitting for a remarkable lady who considered herself to be a people person.

Geoff Lambert
210 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:17:02
The Queen is dead, long live the King.

Just for a change, we as a team might get some good out of the whole situation. New lads training with each other and the injured ones more time to get fit.

Roll on October with a near fully fit squad and some time for the lads to bond.

Bernie Quinn
211 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:22:00
I was going to post summat early on, but this thread became so heavy!! I backed off. But I just want to say I disagree with your early posts, Danny, and agree with your posts Christine about postponing the games. I think it was a correct decision.

I am a Monarchist, have met The Queen, four times over the years, and found her to be a gentle but firm Lady, and feel the whole country should respect her death because of her service as Head of State for 70 years.

As a member of her security detail whilst she was in Christchurch, for 3 days I watched her closely, and believe me she was working 16 hours a day, attending functions, meeting people, dealing with dispatches etc. Remember, she was Head of State of 14 countries, not just the UK, so her work never stopped. She deserves our respect.

And Ed at 141; my Dad was also at Dunkirk and was badly wounded, but he always remained a Monarchist until he died in 1981. When I was in Cyprus, in the Guards, back in 1958, I was slightly wounded, but I never blamed the British Government or the Royal Family.

I mourn her death. Thank you Ma'am and RIP.

Chris Hockenhull
212 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:22:43
Tony (193),

Apologies in advance if I've got this incorrect as I don't know where you actually live. But if it is Liverpool / Merseyside you are referring to as the greatest city on earth….???

I despair of the jingoistic view here that this place is utopia… the city that won't turn in a drug-dealing twat and his cohorts 3 weeks from bursting into someone's home and killing an innocent child and injuring her mother and legging it…

Like I said apologies if I got this wrong, Tony… but to those who wax lyrical regards Liverpool being heaven on earth... this applies to these.

Paul Birmingham
213 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:25:24
Let's hope that this thread tempo, is maintained for every game this season!

Some week in the history of life but Everton have shown a steel and resilience not seen for some time in the derby, and genuine belief, genuine hope and belief for this season.

The new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock is looking good in terms of the construction, and early days this season, but Frank looks like he's up for the fight.


Simon Hermansen
214 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:27:10
The fact is I can do almost anything this weekend other than attend an organised football match at any level.

The reason for the cancellation, to show respect (in other words attending football would be disrespectful), so why are all the other things okay / respectful to carry on doing? Makes no sense.

Danny O’Neill
215 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:35:19
Bernie, I admired and respected the Queen totally.

I think the football should have gone ahead this weekend. I never had the pleasure, but did meet the Princess Royal (Anne) in person 3 times. Very direct, to-the-point person who took no shit and insisted on talking to the soldiers, waving away officers.

Chris, Tony is referring to London.

Liverpool is my home city that I'm very proud of and promote to anyone that will listen.

But there are 2 alpha cities that make the world tick. I like them both, but London gets the edge over New York.

Until Bramley-Moore Dock and the northern end docks are redeveloped, the 2nd city of the Empire is on its way back.

Dean Williams
216 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:38:23
Cancelling football is ridiculous.

The monarchy is ridiculous, simples.

Chris Hockenhull
217 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:39:12
Cheers Danny for correcting my doubt. But my feelings re all this “Liverpool Utopia” stuff remains.
Don Alexander
218 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:40:27
Tony Abraham (#190), you're sadly bob-on regarding the whole focus of that great book, written by a poorly educated "nobody" at the time who'd for years worked and remained impoverished.

His point was that almost everyone had been hammered into accepting their place in his impoverished world, and hammered into accepting that those "above them" best knew what to do about it.

It's called unaccountable, exploitative privilege – where apology and/or explanation is excoriated by those very, self-serving, "lofty" persons (the Queen's on record throughout her life stating – "never apologise or explain").

Boris Johnson is of exactly the same mindset and, come to think about it, so is the poisonous moron still masquerading as our Chairman.

(You knew it was coming folks - surely :) )

Danny O’Neill
219 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:47:23
I like your transition and segway into the Chairman point, Don. Very good manoeuvre!!!

It's a good point though. Despite the positive vibes, the underlying problem is still there even if it remains quiet for now.

Neil Cremin
220 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:48:56
just coming back to TW after a lovely meal with my wife in Algarve to despair.

Some of the recent posts by people whose opinion I respected would seem to say “We are always right and they are always wrong." sad.

Neil Copeland
221 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:49:32
Don, I am surprised it took you so long, your restraint is admirable!
Don Alexander
222 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:58:54
We're all privileged to be Toffees, folks!
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
223 Posted 09/09/2022 at 22:59:54
Michael #207 –

And I'll bet you my last dollar – the biggest profiteers from slavery are today. 40,000,000 are in slavery today. In the 341 years between 1525 and 1866 there were 12,500,000 shipped over the Atlantic. Yes, 3 times as many slaves today as there were over 341 years of shipment.

Does that belittle the scandal of the transatlantic slave trade? No. But maybe we should be spending more time sorting out today's problems than being worried about the past. We cannot change that, but we can change today.
Will people look back in 2267 and ask why we did nothing?

I will also add – where did the slaves come from? How many were abducted by white shipowners and how many were purchased in markets in West Africa or sold by tribal chiefs? I think it is safe to say the vast majority were in the second group. In this sorry tale, neither white nor black can show a clean pair of hands.

Tony Hill
224 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:03:03
Chris @217, try finding a city or village in the country that does not have horrible drug bastards in it, or trying to get into it.

Liverpool is a lovely port ruined by excrescences: riverfront "museums", crappy chain hotels and gruesome 70s things. Still worth a visit mind for the old Georgian glories. And we are getting some things right. The North End may yet be a triumph.

Instead, I deplore my home city for its wretched, aggressive sentimentality. We were pioneers of it but the rest of the world has caught up, in fairness.

Kieran Kinsella
225 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:04:22

I never met Princess Anne – just Fergie, if she counts –but I think Anne is great.

Have you heard the tale of when someone kidnapped her and she bollocked him and got herself released? That apart, she seems very sensible and quite funny, like her Mum.

Alan Corken
226 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:06:45
Paul Kossoff 165:

You rant: "My Dad fought these bastards in the Second World War, his Dad in the first!"

At first, I thought this was an anti-Nazi piece, but the WW1 reference leads to the conclusion that you just don't like Germans!

Was it Mexico 70 that did it? Maybe Italia 90? IMO, your juvenile petulance makes it more likely that it was South Africa 2010 that fed your anti-Teutonic tantrum.

Neil Copeland
227 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:10:47
Kieran #225, ha ha, I can well imagine that.

I have never met her either, but Princess Anne comes across as very intelligent and quite intimidating when riled.

Kieran Kinsella
228 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:19:38

Agreed. Too bad she's not the next in line, lol.

Derek Knox
229 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:19:43
Let's raise a glass to the Queer Old Dean?

Okay, I've had a few already, but it's the thought that counts!

Derek Knox
230 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:21:58
Haven't had Official confirmation yet but I believe the Queen's Last Words were... Kenwright Out! :-)
Derek Thomas
231 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:22:10
I mentioned George VI yesterday and its more protocol-driven mindset.

Virtue signalling wokery by the Premier League, much in the manner of the Remembrance, poppy one-upmanship... got to be seen to be doing something – lest some outraged Twitterati might complain, yet racing, cricket and golf all, presumably pay due respect and carry on.

Woe, woe and thrice woe, waily, waily waily, etc, etc.

Kieran Kinsella
232 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:23:09

Glad someone else noticed that. My Great Grandad fought for Germany in WW1. He didn't have much choice being Polish in Prussia although he had mixed heritage.

Come WW2, his son (my Grandad) fought the Germans oh and those Utopian socialists from USSR who also invaded Poland.

Thereafter, he came to Britain and joined the RAF, further fighting the Nazis. I guess his tale is too complicated for Paul's world view.

Neil Copeland
233 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:23:31

I can just hear the kidnappers arguing and one of them saying, “I told you to take the bloke with the big ears, but oh no, you knew best as always….”

Kieran Kinsella
234 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:26:11
Hahaha, Neil,

If they had, I dare say only a ransom would've saved him.

Christine Foster
235 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:27:47
Jamie, much to be admired in your posts.

I think equality of opportunity is perhaps the key. Sadly in most, if not all of it, it does not exist and never will. Many will be born into countries were opportunity of equality is a hope but an unattainable dream; education, location and circumstance dictate opportunity open to all of us.

We don't even see the miniscule of human potential because of this inequity. I doubt we ever will. Privilege means you start on the ladder of life ten rungs higher than most. Those at the bottom don't just have to work dammed hard to succeed and pray that they are lucky as well... but it takes sacrifice and time, something those who are privileged fail to understand or acknowledge.

But it is the power and drive within those who strive to make a mark in the world, out of inequality, are often the best people you can ever meet. They know the value of money, the value of friendship and family.

On one-hand, leaders may indeed be privileged, their families too, they could give their wealth away tomorrow and the following day the queue would be the same. There is no easy answer. Improvement of all is not a socialist agenda or a conservative slight, it is a social need.

Neil Copeland
237 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:30:40
Kieran, now, now – that's The King we are taking the proverbial out of!
Tony Hill
239 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:33:07
Derek @231, it's the gesture above all: the vacuous observance of liberal pieties which matters.

There, there; even if you don't see it for yourselves, this is what is best for you... or else!

Paul Smith
240 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:47:25
Gotta jump in.

Technically, we choose our leaders but, for fuck's sake, the state of the choice we have. As we decline, we are buffeted by world events like never before and big business, donors and croneyism has destroyed trust in politics.

Some choice, populism and self-seeking or free-market dogma feeding off the working person to enrich the lucky few – it's a stitch-up.

I believe that is why the Monarchy is still in the main, revered, as it is trusted in most part, unlike politics and politicians. We would end up like Italy (no offence to Italians – it's a great country) without a Monarch to coalesce around.

Danny why do you dislike the BBC? Did you not listen to the World Service on tour and feel at home?

The BBC has language channels all over the world allowing people in impoverished nations to learn a different language and aspire to be better, it brought us natural world documentaries and drew attention to the plight of our planet long before the internet or Discovery channel.

Finally, its coverage of the Queen's death has been impeccable. The right fear it as it exposes their duplicity and they have all the other media outlets boxed off; we need it, it's an institution that does good.

Stu Darlington
241 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:47:49
James Marshall
Only just read the comments on this thread and totally endorse what you said.
Keep on saying it,you are not alone.
Michael Kenrick seems to imply that the benefits of living here here are somehow bestowed upon on us by our benevolent betters,totally ignoring the fact that every so called benefit had to be fought for by the working classes sometimes at great suffering and cost.
Yes we should all be grateful for living here Michael,the 7th or8th richest country in the world,and people with jobs having to resort to food banks to live,where all our major institutions are broken,the NHS,education,transport,law and order you name it and anew Prime Minister who believes the answer to the problem is giving more to the rich.
Yes it’s a privilege to live here Michael as long as we have people like James Marshall to tell how it really is to live in this wonderful country.
We need more Churchills,Thatchers and Rees-Moggs to keep the peasants in their place and be grateful for it.
Bernie Quinn
242 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:48:33
I could tell you a story about our new King, but I won't as I could end up in The Tower of London! Suffice to say I wish it had been Anne who succeeded to the Throne.

To be honest, I am concerned as to the future of the Monarchy. If only it had been William who became King – even if he does support Villa!

Mike Gaynes
243 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:57:28
Jamie #125, your thoughtful post really got a great discussion started. And a thoroughly appropriate one, given the occasion.

Christine #235, perhaps the best of a great series of responses.

Kieran Kinsella
244 Posted 09/09/2022 at 23:57:32

No one said it's perfect. But since you listed a bunch of Tory MPs, and how they've hurt the working class, it's worth pointing out that a lot of working class people keep voting them in.

I'm not a Tory, but whether I like it or not, if people vote in the Boris' and Thatchers, then we can't very well complain when they do exactly what you'd expect them to do.

Derek Knox
245 Posted 09/09/2022 at 00:00:53
Oh Go On Bernie, Spill the Royal Beans, I double dare you?

We'll get you out of incarceration, well, we'll try! UTFT

Mick Hoban
247 Posted 09/09/2022 at 00:04:39
Jeez, I gave up around number 80ish and number 1 well – take your fucking ball home then.

Are you all so selfish to be denied a weekend betting and arguing over a team that you love (or hate – as some do on here) that you can't recognise that a moment of history has just happened in this country and that, monarchist or not, seeing a son talk so movingly about his just dead mother when it's the last thing he wants to do, without having one iota of empathy, then I don't want to be in your company.

I'm certainly no royalist and I've no time for what was Prince Charles, but for fucks sake, have a bit of perspective.
It's just a fucking kick about whilst the biggest thing to happen in our country in our lifetime has just happened.
Get a grip.

Slag me off all you want. I care not now.

So disappointed - I've been enjoying this site for so long now.
Up the Toffees. And long live the King!!! (gritted teeth emoji).

Jerome Shields
248 Posted 10/09/2022 at 00:18:52
I really thought the games should have gone ahead this weekend. A minute's silence and the national anthem played, with fans and players showing respect, would have been a more fitting tribune.
Iakovos Iasonidis
249 Posted 09/09/2022 at 00:36:15
Anthony Dove @201

I can't understand why by my name you assume Monarchy is beyond me. You must know here in Greece we go to school and universities too! But guess what – you are right!

I prefer to vote and not take for granted that a random person is superior to me only because he was born by someone or married his cousin or something like that...

As for the marbles, you are right there too! It's a lot of money to do the right and logical thing. There's a lot at stake! Anyway, Up the Toffees!

Chris Hockenhull
250 Posted 10/09/2022 at 00:54:58
Muck Hoban (247).

You've restored my faith in TW. The most sensible and accurate post I've read on this page for a long long while.

Cheers, Mick

Ian Linn
251 Posted 10/09/2022 at 01:14:15
Right on, Mick #247.
Christine Foster
252 Posted 10/09/2022 at 01:17:23

King Charles he may be, but I have a deep-seated unease with him as a leader. Morally.

I think the Queen stayed in office as long as she could because of her own uncertainty. Having said that, few of the family seem to have what it takes to lead; others enjoy the privilege of birth with arrogant disregard for who they are and are hell-bent on their privilege entitlement.

The Queen rose above that, but she was still the product of entitlement. As a state head, a figurehead, she served and led the country. King Charles as he is now, at 73, does not carry that statesmanship.

As you say, it may have served both monarchy and the country if the throne passed to William. But Charles and Camilla it sadly is... onwards and upwards.

Alan McGuffog
253 Posted 10/09/2022 at 01:39:52
Bloody hell, Iakovos... what would Greeks know about Democracy?
Kieran Kinsella
254 Posted 10/09/2022 at 01:43:43

I wonder if Charlie will be able to hang onto the “colonies”?

Republicanism seems to gain favor in Oz every now and then. Not sure how it is in NZ. But the Queen was from the era of the Empire and a well-respected figure. Charles is neither. So will The Commonwealth last?

I would hope that, if anything changes, the government will make a deal whereby, if any country becomes a republic, that Wales has to become a republic too. Just kidding …

Don Alexander
255 Posted 10/09/2022 at 02:12:49
Alan (#253),

Apart from inventing and practising the notion of democracy that we all hold dear over the past two and a half thousand years, the Greeks are mere buffoons... a bit like their denigrators.

Kieran Kinsella
256 Posted 10/09/2022 at 02:41:53

Pretty sure Alan was being sarcastic...

Don Alexander
257 Posted 10/09/2022 at 02:49:17
"The Commonwealth" is an institution vigorously promulgated by Brenda (RIP) once she took the throne.

Before that allegedly acceptable term the "Commonwealth" had been the vigorously acquired British Empire, upon which the sun never set in her heyday.

The British Empire disappeared decades ago. The Commonwealth means as much to other non-Commonwealth people as do the inhabitants of Mars, and many people in the Commonwealth would agree.

Privilege, entitlement, unaccountability and bullshit propounded with a teary face are the mark, still, of an allegedly 21st century Britain.

And Britain may soon be history given the Brexit votes of most people by far in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, all of which is still very "live".

The Monarch wants the UK to sustain, obviously given his "education". The government answerable to him, and her for seven decades, haven't got a clue as to how to ensure it though.

My family is 50/50 English/Scottish. I've spoken to all of them, always. Not a one wants the destruction of the Union that once made Great Britain worthy of the gloriously won adjective.

They're British, regardless of a monarch.

Being "British", "in" Europe, is the only way forward.

Only a self-serving entitled, privileged, lying (provably to Brenda) multi-millionaire blond-haired bull-shitter, eventually massively abandoned by the very MPs who hitherto had all stuck with him, would disagree.

Bob Parrington
258 Posted 10/09/2022 at 02:53:33
Being mercenary, I am happy with the decision as, without Pickford, I wasn't feeling too confident vs Arsenal at The Emirates. Also gives more time for Calvert-Lewin to come up to fitness.

RIP, Queen Elizabeth II. You have been a great inspiration to the nation and all those in the Commonwealth plus many others around the world.

King Charles III, condolences on your loss. Very moving speech. Best wishes for your Reign. May it be long and successful.

Bernie Quinn
259 Posted 10/09/2022 at 03:20:30
Christine and Kieran - I am unhappy that Charles is now the King.

King Edward VIII had to abdicate less than 100 years ago because he wished to marry a divorced woman. Now we have Prince Charles, a divorced man, marrying a divorced woman, with whom he had been having an affair, whilst she was still married to a fellow officer. This should have been a Court Martial Offence and he should have been cashiered. Yet this seemed to have been of no importance.

With regards to the Commonwealth - Yes, I do fear it will start to break up. Both New Zealand and Australia have talked about it and put it to one side whilst the Queen was still alive. Fiji has already made the break, and I've heard Canada may soon follow suit.

Bernie Quinn
260 Posted 10/09/2022 at 03:32:12
Don Alexander,

It is obvious that you are anti-royalty and UK Government - but why do you have to be so miserable and rude in your comments?

The way you speak about the Queen and calling her "Brenda" – do you split your sides laughing as you complete your posts? I haven't agreed with any of your posts, but I wouldn't think of being rude to you.

Colin Glassar
261 Posted 10/09/2022 at 06:00:06
The amount of sanctimonious bullshit spouted on here by a few is jaw-dropping.

A lady who dedicated her life to service and to her country has died and she is being accused, by a tiny minority, thankfully, of being everything from a destroyer of worlds to a genocidal maniac! None of which is even remotely true.

Get a grip. Whatever you think of the institution, her family and what she represented (none of which I am comfortable with) the Queen came across as a thoroughly decent human being who deserves at least some respect from her critics.

Colin Glassar
262 Posted 10/09/2022 at 06:14:34
Paul Kossoff 95,

That would've been King Edward VIII, not George.

Get yer facts right, mate.

Alan McGuffog
263 Posted 10/09/2022 at 06:28:31
Thanks Kieran
Danny O’Neill
264 Posted 10/09/2022 at 06:47:36
Come on Bernie, you can't keep us hanging on!!

Paul Smith @240, I should have been more specific; my dislike is the BBC Breakfast programme as the presenters seemingly treat the viewers like they are stupid in my opinion. I shouldn't watch it. Maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy!!

Last time I looked, the UK is still in Europe. It always has been and contributed (sacrificed) significantly to save it twice. There are over 40 countries on the continent of Europe, not 27. The EU is not Europe. Europe is not the EU. A misconception that the bureaucrats in Brussels promote.

I'm a complete Europhile (if such a word exists). I've lived in Germany, Italy and Cyprus and spend a lot of time on the continent every year. Even though rusty, I still get by in German, especially after I've had a few and the confidence grows! It always interests me that people who strive for "independence" slam Westminster and would rather transfer that central grip on power and control to Brussels. Same thing, just a smaller voice in a larger pot that in reality is controlled by Berlin and Paris in my view.

A different debate, but we have no Everton this weekend! Out to walk the dogs and discuss the next few weeks.

Paul Smith
265 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:04:16
Thanks for clearing that up Danny it wasn’t sitting right. Enjoy the walk.
Ian Jones
266 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:16:17
Re the postponement of the games, does the fact that Prince William is President of the F.A. have any relevance

Bernie Quinn
267 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:23:54
Colin @261 and Danny @264 - Thanks Colin for saying that - Her Majesty was a truly decent woman who fulfilled her duties without complaint. It angers me when people who should know better, casually insult Her memory, trying (and failing) to sound smart
Danny, you of all people should know better! - What I see or hear whilst on duty, has to remain confidential - or I could never be trusted.
Danny O’Neill
268 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:27:14
What happens in the Mess stays in the Mess Bernie!!
Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
269 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:31:12
Don, I think you and Alan have highlighted a significant issue exposed in this thread.

Greeks - fantastic 2000+ years ago (mind you they had loads of slaves) but a bit of a basket case in the recent history, hence Alan's comment.
British Monarchy - some pretty bad stuff in the past but the last lady was wonderful.

To mash up the Quote - you can be a totally great nation some of the time, a fairly iffy one all of the time but you can't be a great nation all of the time.

Steavey Buckley
270 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:31:12
Both politics and royalty should be kept out of sport. But if the government decides to put aside one day for mourning for the late Queen it should be made official by an act of parliament. But the premier league has no legal or moral rights to close down football just because those who run it have an affection for late Queen, who was never elected as head of state. Also, the UK is not at war with a foreign power such was the situation during WW2, so, there is no need to stop football as a national emergency. Football itself does not belong to the premier league, it belongs to those who love watching and playing football, especially, at weekends.
Bernie Quinn
271 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:41:03
Danny @268 - Exactly Danny - I regret saying that now - rather stupid of me!
Danny O’Neill
272 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:50:17
Steavey, I'm one who doesn't think football should have been called off this weekend. It's not disrespectful, we would have paid our respects.

Ian @266, that's a really interesting point and points to the way British Football is set up. We have 4 nations within a Union. Yet Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham play in the English League. Berwick, technically in England, play in the Scottish League. Why has there never been the introduction of a British League? Why doesn't the UK compete globally rather than as England, Scotland, Wales and my very own Northern Ireland (Grandad Bert)?

Probably because the men in grey suits in those Football Associations insist on self-preservation.

You'll have to excuse me. I'm in a particularly grumpy mood this morning!

Mike Gaynes
273 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:53:27
Royals are all over football. Josh King, Kingsley Coman, Kevin-Prince Boateng, Robbie Earle, Matt Duke, Zat Knight, etc. etc. etc.
Danny O’Neill
274 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:54:27
Not at all Bernie. I get the sentiment!

You're coming to Europe next year. Even if just in spirit!

Alan McGuffog
275 Posted 10/09/2022 at 07:55:36
Iakovos. I was being playful, as I'm sure you gathered. Yamas !
Dave Cashen
276 Posted 10/09/2022 at 08:03:14
Well said Colin Glassar.

Despite the historic crimes committed by the British empire. Elizabeth 11 has only ever radiated a positive light to the world. Any affection felt for this country has been generated by her.

Privileged ??? I thank the Lord that I haven't had this sort of privilege thrust upon me. I have never had to endure having my every movement being scrutinised and criticised by every paragon of virtue in the world.

We none of us have had to bear the agony of having our kids indiscretions and alleged indiscretions judged by a world that will find them guilty no matter what. Often in the absence of fact.I

I"m no royalist and I think the death of the queen could well signal the end of the monarchy as we know it. I will not fret about that, but FFS.

This woman has been a great great servant to this country. I'm sure the paragons of virtue can comb through her seventy year reign and pick a couple of faults, but her devotion to this country and its inhabitants has been tireless. Her sense of duty relentless. Her dignity and wisdom renowned throughout the world.

I won't pretend to be in mourning personally. I didn't know the lady, but I respect the desire of millions of people to mark the passing of their one constant. If that means missing a footy match, so be it, it will be rearranged. So please, enough of this "forced morning" claim. If my life was so empty that I wanted to stop so many people marking the passing of a much loved public figure. I'd go and buy myself a box of pic sticks, or maybe a kite.

Andy Meighan
277 Posted 09/09/2022 at 08:08:57
Nice one Chris 148. Very clever indeed.
Danny O’Neill
278 Posted 10/09/2022 at 08:26:48
Well said Dave Cashen.

The British Empire, the French Empire, NAZI Germany. Imperial Spain that was pretty much a military dictatorship If you want to go back in time, those loveable now Liberal Scandanvians invented the term rape and pillage. The list could go on. I believe Spain, another imperial power back in the day, only became democratic in the early 80s after decades of Military dictatorship. But we in the UK feel we are hard done by in terms of rights and freedoms? Belgium's (what is the point in Belgium?) dealing of the Congo is questionable at best.

All the major European nations have history and form. So let's not beat ourselves up and think that our European neighbours were any better. They were not. It's just convenient to beat the UK right now because the EU is sulking and Scotland doesn't like it.

The important thing is how we move forward and learn from the past.

Paul Morrison
279 Posted 10/09/2022 at 08:27:21
I left Bootle for what turned out to be 43 years Navy Military Service. Was involved in everything from the Falklands to the Gulf War. Family, Queen and Everton in that order has made my life what it is. Looking back, I'm still happy with my priorities. Thanks for your service Danny.
Mark Rankin
280 Posted 10/09/2022 at 08:32:50
‘Elizabeth 11 has only ever radiated a positive light to the world. Any affection felt for this country has been generated by her.’

Neither of these statements are true.

Danny O’Neill
281 Posted 10/09/2022 at 08:36:19
Without going over the top Paul, I totally get your sentiment.

Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Middle East and Afghanistan.

Sacrifice. Not always in life, but in the years (if you add them up) spent away from family serving the country in austere conditions and putting your life on the line. My wife put up with a lot. My son broke my heart when I went on my last tour to Afghanistan. He didn't want me to go. That's no exaggerated claim. Just fact.

But wherever I was, I was always looking out for and insisting the guys gave me Everton's results. Even when they didn't want to give me the bad news!!

Tony Abrahams
282 Posted 10/09/2022 at 08:51:31
Thanks Brent, I definitely need to read that book again because I was young and didn’t realise that anything can crush a man who has got a family to look after, and that other book, sounds like it is definitely up my street.

I said I don’t see the wisdom in war, but I definitely get the other side though. The melancholy, the suffering, and the pulling together, against inhumane bastards, has always stirred something inside of me, mate.

Eddie D, I have a constant battle in my job, trying to (what I consider) educate the younger generation who have never really known hard times. They all want to use plastic, money it seems is on its way out, but would Liverpool still be standing the way it is, if we never had a black economy during the Thatcher years?

Getting rid of money is just another nail in the coffin, for the working classes imo, and I don’t think enough people realise this?

Bill Fairfield
283 Posted 10/09/2022 at 08:59:06
An incredibly short sighted decision by the premier league. Though can’t say I’am surprised. Other sporting bodies have made a much more considered decision.
Ray Roche
284 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:02:15
Dave Cashen @27

Good post Dave, and pretty much how I see it. However, what boils my piss is the media overkill. There are only so many times that we can be told that she was up a treehouse when she heard that she was now Queen, so many times that she likes horses or that her kids divorced. It must be the worst job in broadcasting, having to interview the latest tearful arrival at Buck House and asking “What did the Queen mean to you?”
The answer should be about her having her grid on a pound coin and a first class stamp, for those who can write.
Enough already.

Tony Abrahams
285 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:08:37
Chris H, I’m a scouser who lives in Liverpool, and I’m someone who sees both the good and bad side of our city on a regular basis, mate, but I was referring to London, where Danny resides, and also with a bit of my tongue in my cheek, (I do love London though, it’s our capital, and is such a vibrant city) because of the way some of the earlier comments went on this thread!

Your comments about the harbouring of a horrible murderer, are very true Chris, but very few people trust the police, in what is a very cynical modern world.

I was told an incredibly sad story only last week about the police putting a 13 year old child into a juvenile prison, which has lead to his father committing suicide, in another ongoing tragic case, and anyone who heard this tragic story, would definitely think twice about playing ball with the law.

Robert Tressell
286 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:28:52
Seems like the wrong choice to me but there you go.

Anyway, the silver lining is that it gives us a bit more time to bed in an overhauled squad. It also gives DCL a bit more time to get match fit.

Tony Abrahams
287 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:31:12
Mike K, I never knew it as Walton Pk, and have always considered it to be known as Rice Lane City farm, where Noonan Tressel is buried, mate. It’s opposite Walton Prison, on Hornby Rd, but there is no longer an entrance to get into the cemetery, this way unless you can climb over the wall or the iron gates. On the very odd occasion, I’ve chose to drive people around to the entrance, if they are not from our city, and are lost.

Don A, I saw it coming, mate! I do wish Boris Johnson was still prime minister though (honestly) because I remember him slagging off the city of Liverpool, for the outpouring of grief after Hillsborough (the way the government disgracefully carried on maybe helped destroy Thatcher’s legacy?) and I’d love to listen to him now, to see what his feelings would be now, on the death of a lady, who lived a very long, very healthy and very prosperous life. Giving or taking away, quite a few of her children’s misdemeanours.

Jerome Shields
288 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:34:10
'What we call civilisation—the accumulation of knowledge which has come down to us from our forefathers—is the fruit of thousands of years of human thought and toil. It is not the result of the labour of the ancestors of any separate class of people who exist today, and therefore it is by right the common heritage of all. Every little child that is born into the world, no matter whether he is clever or dull, whether he is physically perfect or lame, or blind; no matter how much he may excel or fall short of his fellows in other respects, in one thing at least he is their equal—he is one of the heirs of all the ages that have gone before. '

Quote from the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Nooan Tressel

Paul Morrison
289 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:34:22
Totally get it Danny. I recently flew back from Australia for 5 days just for the Brentford game. I thought I might never see us in the prem again. My Son (military) and Grandson drove up from Cornwall for the day. Three wool sounding blues in the Winslow and we all felt like we were at home. I'm coming home to UK
permanently soon, would love to catch up with the blues I have followed regularly on TW when the Cornish crew become a regular fixture.
Alan Moss
290 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:35:27
Tony @ 285... Tony, I'm sure the people who put that 13-year-old in a juvenile prison were actually the courts and not the Police.
Michael Kenrick
291 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:35:43
Bernie @259,

I know you don't like me intervening but I think you might be inadvertently misleading us about the status of Fiji.

For a while, they were suspended from The Commonwealth. But, as of 26 September 2014:

Fiji rejoins Commonwealth as a full member

And they still appear to be listed as one of the 54 nations.

Profuse apologies to you if my information is not up-to-date and things have subsequently taken a different turn.

Dave Cashen
292 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:37:05
Agreed Ray.

I retired at the start of the year. Good news in the sense that I now have more free time and can get to more matches. Bad news in the sense that I now see a lot more telly.

I understand that most people only have small Windows in their day to catch up with the news and that the broadcasters are trying to cater for everyone, but the repetition for people like myself who dont have to dash out to work has been painful.

Watching presenters trying to cram ten minutes news into three hours has been brain numbing. It's as if all other news has been suspended. I'm working my way through the box sets mate

Talking of being retired. Many will talk about Charles's privileged position, but starting a new job in your seventies ? he has an impossible act to follow. He's fucking welcome to it.

Chris 148

The are growing rumours coming from Rome that Francis is dismissing the idea that he has to die in the job. That he weighing up the prospect of retirement. You may well have a pope to add to your list

Dave Abrahams
293 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:44:27
Tony (190) and Brent (195), you both might already know this but Robert Tressell is buried in the cemetery just by the road named after him. It is a large grave which was put there by a Liverpool Labour group celebrating not only Robert Tressell but about twenty more people who were brought from paupers graves and put in this large one which has the names of those buried in it inscribed on the gravestone. I wrote all the names down who are buried there and have it somewhere in the house.

There was a TV series about “ The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist “ which was shown quite a few years ago which might still be available if you Google it.

Brent Stephens
294 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:54:37
Dave, Walton Park Cemetery I think. I keep meaning to go and have a look.

I might get your Tony to pick me up! I see from his post above he carries money - unlike you!

Thanks for the info on the tv program, Dave - I’ll have a look.

Dave Abrahams
295 Posted 10/09/2022 at 09:55:33
Apologies to Mike Keating and Tony for the above post only just seen them now, by the way Tony when I visited the cemetery, a few years ago, I had no problem getting in, I don’t think I had to climb over any walls.
Brent Stephens
296 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:01:37
ToffeeWeb’s own Robert Tressell, above post - any relation?
Dave Abrahams
297 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:03:22
Brent (294), I’ve been ahead of my time for a few years with this cashless society in not carrying money,mind you I haven’t got a card either!!
Brian Harrison
298 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:07:07
Completely off topic and a completely different sport, but I was amazed to read the other day that the golfer Phil Mickleson virtually had to accept the money from the LIV golf tour as he owed $42 million in gambling debts.

Why do multi millionaires be it golfers or footballers get into so much debt over gambling. The report doesnt say what type of gambling Mickleson was involved in, I know most footballers its the horses. Maybe the old adage of somebody with money and time on their hands makes them go down this route. Regarding footballers who get into debt I definitely think its because they mostly finish training at 12.30. I know many European clubs train in the morning and afternoon, usually fitness in the morning and ball work in the afternoon.

Brent Stephens
299 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:14:54
Dave, you sound like the monarch in not carrying money. Filthy lucre.
Bill Watson
300 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:32:16
How come a man is going to be the next queen?

I'm a republican and a socialist but even I am getting a bit fed up with all this left wing wokery nonsense.

Tony Abrahams
301 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:36:15
Definitely Alan, but without any intervention, then the silence of the police, is just getting replicated by the silence of the criminals?
Colin Glassar
302 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:40:56
Very few countries can claim to have, virtually, 1000 years of uninterrupted rule. From Alfred the Great to Charles III is pretty impressive even though an overwhelming majority of them were scoundrels, despots and lunatics.

Love them or hate them it’s an impressive timeline unequalled by anyone else.

Alan J Thompson
303 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:42:24
I'm no monarchist nor republican, until I know what form it may take, but this is one maybe two weekends without football not the end of the world and, in case you've forgotten, it happens each year, usually for about 3 months, and this year English football while the World Cup is on. Get over it, or agree with Shankley, but with the proviso that nobody should be out of pocket for arrangements made prior.
Tony Mace
304 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:53:24
Andrew @60

Very appropriate as every one of his jokes is followed by a minutes silence

Brian Murray
305 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:54:38
Now is a decent time while half the uk on its knees especially this winter just scrap the monarchy and give all the land back to the people. The security these leeches cost is unbelievable. Each private policeman for them is at least 100 k a year. Rip queen but they are from a by gone age and tug forelocking is degrading. I’m no subject for any establishment.All men are equal. They are hardly a bunch to look up to.
Mike Keating
306 Posted 10/09/2022 at 10:57:05
Tony @ 287 and Dave @ 295 Thanks for the correction. I’ve actually been to the cemetery by Walton Prison, so don’t understand why I said it was Walton Park.

Interesting that Tressell turns up on this thread as he is said to have rejected the privileges extended to him by birth on the basis that they derived from absentee landlordism. Sad that a man who became a working class legend, ended his days in poverty and an unmarked grave.

Bill Watson
307 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:09:59
Brian #305


On the subject of cost did anyone notice Johnson and Truss flew up to Aberdeen on separate jets which were parked next to each other on the runway. What a waste of public money!
Seeing these two numb skulls, in quick succession, would be too much for most, never mind a 96 year old!

Alan Moss
308 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:29:06
Tony @ 301...I can't say I'm aware of the particular incident you're referring to so it's hard to comment with an authority about the actions of people involved. What do you mean by no intervention? That the 13-year-old wasn't dealt with differently earlier, or that the father wasn't supported after his son was put in prison?

In terms of remaining silent, it's difficult for any official body to comment publicly due to data protection and the people's right to a private life. The incident was probably investigated which would also mean comment wouldn't have been appropriate.

I'm not sure how any of this justifies people remaining silent on such horrific incidents as we've seen recently in Merseyside?

David West
309 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:29:11
When I die I don't want people moaping around,miserable and not doing what they love doing. Sure Liz would agree.
It should be a celebration like the jubilee. Not all this doom and gloom.
Good on her for all she done.
But come on let's crack on !
Kevin Jones
310 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:31:37
1 or 2 matches, Read the parable of “The Sword of Damocles” and then come back. I wouldn’t be a Royal especially a Monarch for all the money in the World. Privileged yes easy no. Imagine every single second of the last 70 years of your life being scrutinised. Every word every action has to be perfect one wrong statement and the thread snaps.
Mal van Schaick
311 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:32:41
Control. Control. Control. They never cut us any slack. Their time will come when they need us and the majority will say. Get lost.
Dave Abrahams
312 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:40:32
David (309),spot on with that mate, a lot of funerals I’ve been to have been better than weddings and the only thing the person who died would have been sad about was that he had missed such a cracking day, I’m going to one next Wednesday which I’m sure will be one of those days celebrating a real character’s life who was well known around town and a life long friend of mine.
Danny O’Neill
313 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:48:27
How were they supposed to get there Bill? On horseback?

Let's be real. Scrap the Monarchy, fine. But it just get's replaced by another ruling institution that is paid for by the taxpayer. Ask the Soviet Union or modern Russia that is ruled (not Governed like us) by a dictator who just reinvents his role to remain in power. He's like a political Russian Bill Kenwright. Be careful what you wish for.

Dave Abrahams doesn't carry cash or cards? That can't be true Brent. He said he get the drinks in when we meet up. Maybe he has a tab?

Paul @289, I hope we meet up. I don't know if they were friends or relatives of Brian Murray, but I met with a father and son from Gloucester in the Winslow before the Palace match. I believe it was the young lad's first match at Goodison. I shook his hand and told him to bring the points home (a bit of a cliche / catch phrase of mine). He did. Let me know when you or your family are next over.

David West
314 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:51:07
Kev310 I'd take there lives tommorow mate.. The queen yes did alot for the country and done the job she was there to do but any king or queen has it easy imo.
She's not like a politian we know nothing of her personal veiws, has no one to answer to. It's a no lose situation imo.
I get they have to be impartial but that's what makes it a cushy job.
Not like she has to raise or lower taxes, give or take benefits for the poor, send troops to war, allow or deport asylum seekers, give or take free school meals I could go on.
Charles will now become mute on all the issues which he has previously campaigned for. So he can now have his own easy ride.

I'd rather we had a king or queen who spoke up for the people, telling these politian arse holes to get a grip to stop serving themselves and run the country for the good of all and not just the privileged few.

Now When's the footy back ????

Dave Abrahams
315 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:54:27
Danny (313), that’s quite correct I said I’d get the drinks in when you and me meet up but what’s half a bitter between friends!!
Tony Everan
316 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:55:40
Robert 286, I too hope it gives us a mini preseason like boost to get important players fit. DCL fully fit and firing as the priority. One fly in the ointment is that many of our injuries seem to occur on the training ground. Hopefully we can navigate next two or three weeks without that happening!
Brian Murray
317 Posted 10/09/2022 at 11:59:32
Danny O’Neil. I met that family same day as you. Just brothers in arms eh. As for the postponement it really will allow Onana to kick on and obviously the injured. Plus may of been a step to soon / far playing the gunners at the moment. Let them have their perennial dip.
Derek Thomas
318 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:08:29
For reasons best known to themselves (fear of negative backlash is my guess) the PL have mis-read the room, hit the stop button early so are now pretty much oddman out.
Still,1 less game for Pickford to miss and another week for DCL & Maupay to get fitter.

Every cloud has a silver lining

Bill Watson
319 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:18:41
Danny #313

Well, as they were both travelling from London, at about the same time to see the same person in the same place, maybe they could have both gone in the same plane?

Stephen Davies
320 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:19:14
I've had this conversation with my brother who served in Iraq about flag burning here in the USA. I personally detest the burning of the flag, and my brother would like to punch anyone who does it. My brother has said, "I fought and almost died for that flag, it shouldn't be burned."
Isn't burning the Flag Free Speech?
Something worth dying for?
Brian Murray
321 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:26:05
Showing my age but does anyone remember the wizards den ( joke shop ) in white chapel. Not suggesting that’s where Charles got his lugs from by the way.
Chris Williams
322 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:35:16

I remember the Wizards Den. I got my blackface soap, and Mucky Pup fake dog turds there. And stink bombs.

Who said we couldn’t make our own entertainment?

Neil Copeland
323 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:36:21
Brian #321, yes, it was brilliant and used to buy all sorts of things from there.
David West
324 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:36:59
BILL 319
It's security reasons. They can't have the current pm and future pm on same plane in case of a crash or terrorist attack. The same reason the president & vice president don't travel together.

Brent Stephens
325 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:38:42
Stephen #320 "Isn't burning the Flag Free Speech? Something worth dying for?"

I might have misread Jamie but I thought he was saying just that.

Danny O’Neill
326 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:40:00
Maybe Arsenal will have an Everton October and we'll buck the trend Brian!! Either way, see you at the next one. We can sort out the constitution before or after!!
Neil Copeland
327 Posted 10/09/2022 at 12:48:12
I can’t believe that the monarchy haven’t simply appointed Bill. Maybe they just call him to ask how Everton would go about it…..
Brian Murray
328 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:07:05
Neil, The term monkey off backs come to mind. I’m sure that’s already entered his bonce
Paul Washington
329 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:07:15
Regarding the Princess Ann comments on this post.

Whilst serving at HMYOI Thorn Cross in Warrington,she was making an official visit to the jail.

At the time the jail had the HIT unit (high intensity training) known by the name 'boot camp'which tried to put young offenders on the straight and narrow through extensive hard work.

The trainees (prisoners) had toiled for days getting kit ready, washing, ironing bulling boots and practicing drill.

The Princess landed by helicopter on sports field,walked towards the assembled trainees who were in open order ready for inspection,and promptly walked right passed them.
I for one was totally pissed off and felt for the lads who'd put so much work into the royal visit.

My support for the monarchy was severely tested that day!

Jamie Crowley
330 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:10:03
Jeez! My wife and I are traveling and we were on the road yesterday. I come back to TW this morning ready to hit the road again and see a myriad of posts about, well, my post. TY all for commenting.

Brent -

That veil of ignorance omission on my part is down to not fully understanding the parameters admittedly. I'd still stand by my answer, and basically think the exercise is fun, but folly. There's no real veil of ignorance - we all learn and grow, experience things, etc. So by the dynamic of life itself, a veil of ignorance can't exist. But if it did, I'd likely still choose the "risky" answer. What is life without effort and risk? Seems to me a shallow, meaningless thing at least in part.

And then we get to Christine Foster, Queen of TW (literally #respect, not a poke), when she says:

Improvement of all is not a socialist agenda or a conservative slight, it is a social need.

I couldn't agree more.

For any of you who know Dr. Jordan Peterson, he's addressed this very thing. Now, many hear his name and throw up a little. I personally think he's a brilliant man and a modern day philosopher of incredible talent and intelligence. Whatever your opinion of him, and he is absolutely more "Conservative" than "Liberal" but just disregard that for a bit, he addresses the wealth inequality and left vs. right social construct brilliantly. And I agree with everything he says.

Paraphrasing / Surmising:

Both the left and the right need one another. The left are the creators, the innovators, the free thinkers, the artisans. They've contributed to society and human kind's advancement more than we can almost quantify. But basically they're shit at management and logistics. Conservatives can organize, market, and create economy well. And the simple fact is they both need one another. When they work together and find that symbiosis, human kind advances, and is better off for the "partnership".

The evolution of our society is insane. There's wealth inequality, but we have, over time, been continually on an upward trend. Systems of government, the supply chain, hell just feeding everyone - consider where society is presently and where it was even 100 years ago and you come to realize humans are doing a stellar job of making life better. Yes, there's famine, starvation, poverty, etc. But these things continue to decline with our advancements as a civilization.

Nothing is perfect. But we've done a damn good job moving forward and increasing the quality of life for the large, vast percentage of human beings on earth. If you don't believe me, think of modern plumbing and water for just a second, and consider the monumental task of creating a system of clean water and waste management on demand for a massive percentage of inhabitants on earth. It's mind-boggling.

I've every confidence we will continue to advance and improve society and our systems, long after I'm gone. And that advancement comes about with the push and pull of the "left" and "right" working together, often times debating and arguing, but in the end ultimately advancing in an upward trend for mankind as a whole.

Now if we could just get rid of this economic nonsense of "chuck all the money in the middle and divvy it up equally" we'd really be on to something! 😜. Joke. Deal.

Anywho, thanks for the replies.

Brian Murray
331 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:14:29
Danny o. Don’t think we on same page as crown as in a Thorny subject ( no pun intended. Stick to tales of Martin dobbo than Martin bashir. Plus I’m more of a night of the real than knight of the realm. Off to town adorned in Bally tee shirt fck em they can go n eat cake. Onwards
Brian Murray
332 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:18:26
As for the joke shop no school in Liverpool wasn’t complete without stink bombs from there. As one of about four blues in a whole class il not say who was responsible
Kieran Kinsella
333 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:19:16
Haha Neil Charlie probably would. I’m sure he’s already tapped his wisdom at all those Royal Variety shows
Jamie Crowley
334 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:20:00
Brent -

To be clear on the flag burning.

I detest it. It makes me sick to my stomach, especially with so many family members having served.

But free speech is the pillar of any free society. And free speech can not and never should be defined as, "freedom of speech I personally agree with."

Ergo, flag burning should be considered and is an expression of free speech, and protected by any means, no matter how vile I think it is. And man I fucking hate it! But the application of free speech should be total, not "pick and choose as one deems fit."

My opinion. Your mileage may vary.

I'm done preaching. Cue the "thank God" comments. Don't care. Back on the road.


Tony Abrahams
335 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:24:10
Agree Alan, but it’s an ongoing case, mate, although I can personally see the similarities between the way the police operate, and the criminals who also remain silent. Justice is a game, comes to mind, and sometimes this is the most unfortunate thing of all.

You never had to climb over any walls Dave, because I had a word with the cocky watchman, just in case you couldn’t get in,and decided to come around to our house!

Brent Stephens
336 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:25:53
Jamie, I was referring back to your post knowing that that was what you meant and I agree with it. Same side, mate. I thought Stephen at #320 had misunderstood you.
Neil Copeland
337 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:26:03
Kieran, Bill probably promised him the part of Dame Twanky. That would be right up Charles’ street I reckon.
Brian Murray
338 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:27:11
No disrespect to the subject. Not that I’m a disciple but does any blue like me feel we are really going to kick ass in this league. By the way god rest her. Just saying. The seeds where sown when we all seen him in Chelsea dugout giving his no doubt winning or even northern disdain verbal blast to klopp. Il leave the Tory aspect out because we crave or should a winner and he is plus his staff. All of the above I know is hope but it feels this tsunami over bramley Moore is rising.
Neil Copeland
339 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:27:18
Brian #332, stink bombs were the first thing I thought of when you posted about The Wizards Den
Danny O’Neill
340 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:27:33
I've just received my latest t-shirt Brian. Amber with a very simple and subtle St Rupert's Tower. Those who know will know. Those who don't, well they they don't matter. The wife shook her head and told me not to leave it accessible or it will disappear mysteriously.

Jamie @330, that's a really good point. Angela Merkel, widely regarded as one of the key European leaders in a generation led on a minority for multiple terms having to form coalitions. Not only can we not comprehend that in the UK, but on at least 2 occasions of her 16 years as Chancellor, she went into a so called "grand coalition" with the SDP as well as having the customary backing of the Bavarian sister party the CSP. That's the equivalent of a Conservative - Labour coalition with the backing of the DUP.

We freaked out when the Conservatives had to make a token gesture to the Liberals and were outraged when May had to turn to the DUP.

Those who admire Europe may want to look at how they manage to mange coalitions because they rarely govern with an outright majority.

Neil Copeland
341 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:30:48
Jamie, the only flag burning I approve of relates to red ones!
Danny O’Neill
342 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:32:47
We're rising Brian. Frank is an east end boy with east end roots. I think that's why he has connected with Everton.

Blue boys are on the rise. The League Cup is coming and we are marching down to Bramley Moore!!

Dave Cashen
343 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:34:32
I think quite a few Scousers have been ahead of the game When it comes to Money.
I can't remember the last time I went home without catching a glimpse of Charlie on a bank note.
Neil Copeland
344 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:38:15
Danny and Brian, absolutely we are, I feel or sense it too. We are improving with each game, have the makings of a solid hard working team and a manager that really buys into us and appears to love the club.

Wembley here we come with Europe to follow next season courtesy of a cup win.

I am just hoping that the enforced break helps us rather than stalling the momentum. The future is very bright though.


Don Alexander
345 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:49:25
Bernie (#260), "Brenda" is how she's jokingly termed by Private Eye, and I read it periodically. It's a magazine where real journalism is alive and well exposing the wrongdoings of those in power over us all. It's also hysterically funny now and then too.

And yes, I am anti-Royal and anti-Tory.

Sorry if my comments upset you though.

Christine Foster
346 Posted 10/09/2022 at 13:50:54
Jamie, I guess perspective comes from age and a half finished bottle of Australian wine. But you are right of course, left or right, alone they corrupt, together they zig zag into the future. On my lucid moments I realize that neither side is the full deck, the risk takers and the enablers are both sides of the same coin. Fairness however is found between the arrogance of greed and the reward for endeavour. They rarely see eye to eye, but one without the other destroys ambition.

The Wizards Den! My goodness what a shop! I think it must have finally closed its doors in 1970, if I remember rightly the back pages of many American comics used to have hundreds of small ads with all manner of weird jokes, magic tricks, itching powder etc, all could be found in the best shop in town! Used to get taken there for the weird and wonderful sets of false teeth, plastic dog poo.. door was an electronic parts shop, ex army surplus parts and stuff.. used to get sent there by my grandad with a list of valve numbers to get.. thanks for the memory Brian!

Kieran Kinsella
347 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:05:20
Keep seeing posts about Robert Tressell’s grave sight and then Robert Tressell pops up with a comment. Just waiting now to see if there is a ToffeeWeb poster called QEII
Neil Copeland
348 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:08:00
Kieran, ha ha, pleased it’s not just me!
Derek Knox
349 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:16:38
Brian M, Tend to agree but what replaces a Head of State, an entourage of hangers on, either way Monarchy or Republic ? I'm afraid these things are almost unfortunately set in stone, and have long been linked to Harrow, Eton, and all other prestigious Private Schools and Colleges for the so called rich and famous.

One of my favourite books, by again one of my favourite Authors, Animal Farm a parody on Communism. All Animals are Equal, but some are more equal than others ! There we have George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair) who in all fairness didn't have a background of poverty, almost the opposite, but he recognised the Social Injustices and committed them into books.

He didn't make a fortune either in his lifetime from those sales, and died relatively young aged 47 (1950) before 1984, and Animal Farm were made into Movies/Films. I liked the way he turned his back on the system and that of privilege, when he wrote Down and Out in Paris and London, he actually lived more or less as a homeless person in both Cities to begin with to get the material for the book through the eyes of someone who has been there, done it, but couldn't afford the T-Shirt !

Stephen Davies
350 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:25:50
Angela Merkel also studied and received a Doctorate in Quantum Chemistry.
Tony Abrahams
351 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:26:19
Best match report I ever read centered around George Orwell, Derek. I’m sure it was written on the 1st January 1984, and the man who wrote it also added that on the way to St Andrews, to watch Everton play Birmingham, he was going to have to read Orwell’s 1984 book, because surely better times had to be around the corner for Everton!

Over 38 years ago and I’ve never forgotten it, even if those “real” good times never lasted long enough.

Brian Murray
352 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:32:27
Derek Knox. I respect and acknowledge the revenue the queen gave to the uk but surely any human being Tory labour or royalist or anti knows this is a sham to even try and carry on with a cash cow for them because behind the robes and butlers that’s all it. Going to say it one more time we ( I didn’t know il be honest) have a new pm that worked with the shell company and despite their overwhelming profits they was quite prepared to take a heavy tax. But no she too 100k and let us carry this fuel burden for years to come, Someone please tell me I have it wrong.Fckin disgusting
Danny O’Neill
353 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:35:35

Genuine story.

December 1983, a desperate Danny genuinely looked to the night sky and pleaded with the good Lord to shine down on us. I pleaded with him to make Everton good. I was only 12 so I don't know if it had any impact, but the following year and years gave me faith that he had listened.

I don't know where he's been since 1987, but I might give him a shout tonight.

Adrian Evans
354 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:39:05
On the matter of the State funeral.The 19th of Sept.
Looking at the fixtures.
Brentford v Arsenal.



Brighton, Palace postponed.

West Ham at Everton.

Havent looked at the EFL.

London will be full, security on the highest footing.

There is a pretty good chance London games will be postponed, if not All Premier League.

We are already at the end of May, due to the World Cup.???
UEFA wont give Premier League clubs involved after group stage much consideration of domestic fixture congestion.

If say Everton are involved in two Cups, to quarter finals beyond, Premier League fixture postponements happen.But if the top six sides, involved in European, domestic Cup comps.


Yes some Premier League, board , FA, EFL Cup idiot's with a pencil, calendar can work out a schedule.

Play three straight days.???🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Seriously, all comps become un competitive, a lottery, unfair.

The most serious implication is RELEGATION from the Premier League£££££££££hundreds of millions.Possibility of 17years in the wilderness, out of business.

Everton could find ourselves sitting around playing once a fortnight, three weeks if a Premier League fixture is postponed.FA Cup fixture, if we are out.
Again if a Premier League team is in a Europa League, Conference, Champions League spot.

Be in a relegation battle, one game every three weeks, then 4games in 12days.???

Not just Everton, a few teams, weaker teams, a group.

Weaker teams, not in Europe, out of knock out Cups.But cant get FAIR DATES with other Premier League sides, top sides.

The senario is herrendous!!!but the COST TO THE THREE beyond calculation.

Clubs cant wait until Mar, April May to raise these concerns.

It has to be now, before the fact.With the threat of LEGAL CHALLENGES if its seen as unreasonable, unfair competition.



Its a mess for the Premier League, the best League in the World.

Brian Murray
355 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:46:48
Derek Knox. From the squires to the rectors I know the have and have nots. Just wish at At they would be honest about it but since time began that doesn’t sit well. I know I sound idealistic but if you push people too much sea parts of london St. Paul’s bristol toxteth Liverpool. Hope I’m wrong obviously. Rather a blue revolution than city’s burnt out. Watch this space
Mike Gaynes
356 Posted 10/09/2022 at 14:47:22
Adrian, compared to Covid this is a pretty mild scheduling crisis.

They'll figure it out, for better or worse.

Christy Ring
357 Posted 10/09/2022 at 15:22:29
Kieran#167 Regarding de Valera, the only reason he wasn't executed, was because he wasn't even Irish, and set up Collins as the scapegoat, by sending him to London, instead of going himself. That's my history lesson over.
Queen Elizabeth came to Ireland on a visit in 2011, on an invite from Irish President Mary McAleese, even the British prime minister didn't want her to travel, and condemned by die hard Irish republicans and Sinn fein. She visited the garden of rememberence, presented a wreath for Irish nationalism, and met irish people in Dublin and Cork. I have to say most of the Irish people respected her imensly after her visit.
Will Mabon
358 Posted 10/09/2022 at 15:35:16
Dave, Brent, @ 293 & 4, and anyone interested:

Searching in YouTube brings it all up - film, audiobook, reviews etc. Loads of it.

Alan McGuffog
359 Posted 10/09/2022 at 15:37:04
Christy. is it true, or an urban myth, that Dev was first in line to sign a book of condolences for a certain A. Hitler ?
Astounding if true.

Peter Mills
360 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:04:06
Junior football was cancelled today.

It seemed unnecessary to me, and disappointing as the 8 year olds were going to observe a minute’s silence and be educated about respect.

Bill Gall
361 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:07:52
I wonder now with Charles being head of the Commonwealth countries he will try to get the government to rescind the agreement that that was made I believe at the start of the Queens reign, that any one receiving an English Pension while working in England, decide to live in a Commonwealth country to be with their children and grandchildren they will never receive any increases to their existing pension.
Christy Ring
362 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:12:30
Alan#359 The secretary and assistant secretary of external affairs, begged him on bended knee not to go and sign the book, but he did sign the book of condolences, disgusting. They said he signed the book of condolences at the American embassy two weeks earlier to condole on the death of president Roosevelt, he was afraid of being accused of partisan, unreal.
Bill Watson
363 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:13:17
I really do find it astounding that numerous, otherwise seemingly, intelligent people can post how much they appreciate living in one of the most democratic countries in the world.
Really? Last time I checked we had an unelected Head of State and an unelected second chamber.
Now we also have an unelected Prime Minister, the second one in the last few years and the fourth one in my memory (Brown and Callaghan).
This is brainwashing on a scale Stalin would have been proud of.
Danny O’Neill
364 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:20:05
Bill, maybe a fault in the system.

As I understand, we don't vote for a leader.

We vote for our local MP.

That party is elected to govern on the basis of that result if they (the party) get a majority).

So once in, it's theirs until the next General Election. Even if they change leaders.

Right or wrong, agree or not, that's my understanding.

Kieran Kinsella
365 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:20:24

Dev was before my time but my Great Grandad and family all from Wexford never had a good word to say about him and plenty of bad words.

Kieran Kinsella
366 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:23:27

Aside from Dev signing it, who on Earth decided to pass around a book of condolences for said psychopath? I thought even his henchmen Himmler and Goerring tried to distance themselves from him immediately after his demise and act like they had no clue what he was up to and it was all on Adolf himself.

Danny O’Neill
367 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:25:34
Totally unnecessary Peter. I think it would have been an opportunity for the kids and the country to demonstrate their respect.
Sean Kelly
368 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:26:04
Dev was a snidey sod he set Collins up and then had him shot. He’s the worst thing that happened to this country. Coward of the highest order and let the Catholic Church run d country. And he wasn’t even Irish
Kieran Kinsella
369 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:32:03

Didn't he mandate teaching Gaelic in schools? and ban football and other non Irish sports from Crowe Park?

Bill Watson
370 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:39:11

I've read all of Orwell. Maybe the one which made the most impression was 'Homage to Catalonia', his account of his time with the International Brigade, in Spain.

Your mention of 'Animal Farm' brought back memories of the time we were on holiday in the GDR and went to the ballet, at the State Opera House, in Unter den Linden, East Berlin.

At the interval we went down for a drink and there was a large table at which were sat lots of people in evening dress being served all kinds of expensive looking food and drink.

I asked my German friend who they were and she replied,"Oh, Sie sind die Genossen! (they're the comrades...the Party members).

Brent Stephens
371 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:47:08
Bill #363 I greatly value our democracy, especially when compared to many other non-democratic regimes. We should seek to protect that democracy from any attempt to diminish it.

That's why I would add to your concerns the threats from within our ranks:
rumoured proposals for restrictions to our Supreme Court (after recent decisions went against the government); the recent rule-change which means that ministers no longer won't always be expected to resign for breaching the ministerial code of conduct (after Johnson was fined for breaking lockdown laws); or the government blocking the independent ethics chief, Christopher Geidt, from gaining the power to launch his own investigations (threatening to reveal further government wrong-doing); or resignations of (consecutive?) the ethics chief after being blocked from investigating the PM etc; recent rewriting of the foreword to the ministerial code, removing all references to honesty, integrity, transparency and accountability.

I value our democracy. And it needs to be protected from anti-democratic forces.

Paul Kossoff
372 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:47:59
Alan 226, 'Was it Mexico 70 that did it? Maybe Italia 90? IMO, your juvenile petulance makes it more likely that it was South Africa 2010 that fed your anti-Teutonic tantrum."???
I don't hate the Germans, my best friend is a German and he hates Hitler, the two wars and Nazi sympathizers and the royal family and the red shite.You ranting about some weird loose connection between world wars and world cups is very juvenile.
You really should go lie down. Get something better to Do than scrolling through comments looking for something to disagree with instead of coming up with an intelligent comment of your own.
Tony Abrahams
373 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:54:42
Peter I took my 8 year old son for a kick about and for the first time in a long time walton hall Pk Astro turf was locked up. (They even kept it open once the first lockdown had passed) we then went to another Astro turf, it was open but the lad said we couldn’t play because company policy was to keep the pitches clear today.

What kind of person was the queen, dad, he said, because she can’t have been very good if she didn’t want the kids to have any fun.

Maybe the Military can get involved in next weekend’s games, because I think it’s got to be better than staying at home, and it might just create a perfect picture for the watching world?

Alan McGuffog
374 Posted 10/09/2022 at 16:56:42
Although not Irish, I'm interested in Irish history although a bit of an ignoramus.
Dev would have been shot after Easter Rising ( or War of Independence ) but for the fact he was Spanish or American ?
Isn't ToffeeWeb great ?
Derek Knox
375 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:03:32
How does that song go ?

I predict a Riot !

If there's another week of this ?

Ron Sear
376 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:05:33
Not too worried about the football, could be quite useful for Everton. What made me mad was both the Guardian and the Times failed to print sudakos the day following the death of Her Majesty.
Michael Lynch
377 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:05:58
Funeral confirmed for Monday 19th. I really hope that means our Sunday fixture against the Hammers goes ahead, especially as the train strikes have been postponed so I can make it
Derek Knox
378 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:07:29
Bill @ 370, spot on there mate, that Putin has about 60 Country Homes or Dachas, where may Russian people are just above or on the poverty line, what sort of Communism is that ?
Danny O’Neill
379 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:07:48
Having lived in Germany as a child, as an adult and as a frequent visitor both on holiday and to watch Schalke, the German Everton, there isn't a country with more affection for the British Royal Family.

Maybe because modern Germany realises what the UK (that silly little country) helped them be what they are today.

At one point, the UK had 60,000 troops stationed in West Germany directly facing the Soviet Threat.

Alongside our US Comrades. France and Europe nowhere to be seen.

Even now, the Germans are ineffective as a military having banked on the US and UK to secure Europe for decades.

Apologies. I get emotive about this.

Back your money on Europe as Ireland did and the Russian Bear comes back to haunt.

Bill Watson
380 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:10:38
Danny #364

Essentially that's true but many vote for the party, the leader and the manifesto the leader promises to implement if elected. When that leader is replaced, mid term, that manifesto is often binned so the new leader has no popular mandate. That's happening now.

When Blair resigned Rees-Mogg was calling for a General Election on those very points.

The other fault in our 'democracy' is the first past the post system which shuts out minority parties. I live in a safe Labour seat. When I was in the Party our MP (Harold Wilson) stood down and we had to select a new candidate. What we were essentially doing was selecting an MP and, of course, the same thing applies in safe Tory seats.

So, our democracy isn't as democratic as first seems and that's even before you even consider if the main parties provide much of an alternative to each other, anyway.

Just on troops in Germany. My brother was stationed in Soest and there was a Dutch camp not far away. I don't know what they were actually doing as they weren't part of the four victorious powers which divided German into zones of occupation, I've also seen French troops in their bit around Stuttgart.

Darragh Farrell
381 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:20:40
Sean, 368, that's a bit harsh on Dev, he didn't have control over the anti-Treaty IRA and was actually viewed by them as soft. He seemed genuinely upset at Collins' killing. As for the power of the church, all the politicians of the time fell in line with them, as seen when the inter-party government came in. Even Sean MacBride sided with the church against Noel Browne.

Danny, 379, I'm glad Ireland has close ties with our European friends, don't think the Russian bear has any interest or impact on us thankfully. The EU has been a reliable and trustworthy partner for Ireland, unlike our immediate neighbour.

Danny O’Neill
382 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:23:52
Maybe why people need to think before they vote and not treat politics like football Bill.

Or maybe it's a flaw in the system.

What's happening now is no different than the Blair to Brown transition. And that was Labour.

So the system is at fault? But then do we go down the route of Italian politics?

That sensible large European country?

Stephen Davies
383 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:24:33
Derek #378
Russia isn't a Communist country is.
In fact one of his mates sons sits in the House of Lords. (The son of a KGB Colonel no less)
Christy Ring
384 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:26:14
Sean#368 I couldn't agree more, if he was Irish, he would have been shot with his colleagues after the easter rising, but the coward said he was American, got Collins a true Irish man shot, he wouldn't lace his boots. Reminds me of Trump.
Colin Glassar
385 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:28:00
Greatest thread ever?
Kieran Kinsella
386 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:31:50
I suggest the best form of government would be a simple self-chosen council of wisdom otherwise known as the ToffeeWeb Live Forum. All matters of law would be decided arbitrarily by that group on Saturdays between 3 and 5pm.
Brent Stephens
387 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:45:42
Kieran, the Live Forum would start to sound silly and unrestrained in the comments.

On reflection, it might work but we'd need a leader and deputy leader. Get rid of the two editors in a coup during the Palace game. And instate thee and me.

Geoff Trenner
388 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:48:42
Ron @376. Is he the Greek keeper we’ve signed to cover Pickford’s absence?
Neil Copeland
389 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:50:10
Live forum? Jeez, there would be more hangings than available rope….
Kieran Kinsella
390 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:54:06

Sounds like a plan

Dave Cashen
391 Posted 10/09/2022 at 17:57:05
Anyone interested in Irish history and in particular the role De Velera played in creating the Irish state as we know it, would do well to listen to Kevin Kenny. A professor of history and a professor of Irish studies at Texas, New York and Boston universities.

No attempts to either demonize or canonize – just a determined attempt to cut through bullshit spoken and written by both his enemies and supporters.

Beware. He doesn't leave a stone unturned so you won't get much change out of an hour. But if you're interested, it's well worth a listen.

As those who are familiar with his work will be aware, among the books he has written are "Peaceable Kingdom Lost", "Making Sense of the Molly Maguires" and later "The American Irish".

Sorry for bringing him into a ToffeeWeb conversation, but this guy really does know his history.

Neil Copeland
392 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:06:19
Colin #385, probably
Alan McGuffog
393 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:09:40

No apologies required. We are Evertonians... show us a tangent and we'll travel along it to infinity.

I always bought When Skies Are Grey. A discussion there about the magic of Sheedy's left foot would develop into a treatise on why we no longer trod in white dog shit. Marvellous!

Darragh Farrell
394 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:19:57
Thanks Dave, will check that out as well as his work on the Molly Maguires. I've been meaning to get to some of the sites in Pennsylvania associated with them. The Irish involvement in the labour movement in the US is very interesting.
Steavey Buckley
395 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:34:47
What's even worse, BBC football has not opened any comments section so the footballing public can discuss why football should be curtailed when other sports or not.

Racing is back tomorrow, because the horse owners, jockeys, race course owners and bookies cannot afford to be patriotic more than one day.

The Queen loved a flutter, when not occupied with royal duties, she would be in her private apartments watching the racing on tv.

Jack Convery
396 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:44:35
According to Jonathon Agnew on Test Match Special, the ECB consulted with the powers that be about playing the Test Match.

As the Oval is on land owned by the Duchy of Cornwall, which was given up by King Charles III to his son, after his accession to the throne, the answer was affirmative, to go ahead.

So why, did the football authorities cancel football? A Nonsensical decision, given the authorities were more than okay with the Test Match going ahead.

Colin Glassar
397 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:48:48
Neil 392, it’s definitely been one of the most informative. All we need now is a reference to the Spanish Inquisition.
Brent Stephens
398 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:51:05
Neil Copeland
399 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:51:48
Colin 397, ha ha, plenty of time yet mate. Who needs an education when we have TW?
Neil Copeland
400 Posted 10/09/2022 at 18:54:41
Brent, that sketch was the first thing I thought of when Colin mentioned it.
Kieran Kinsella
401 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:03:40

Funny thing about the Spanish inquisition is, despite its stated religious purpose, the Spanish killed only 10 percent the number of "witches and wizards" as the British monarchy in the same period.

Neither had a patch on Paul Kossof's beloved Germans who burnt 34,000 compared to England's 1,000 and Spain's 100.

Dave Abrahams
402 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:04:19
Colin (385), you definitely live and learn on ToffeeWeb!!
Neil Copeland
403 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:06:07
Kieran, that’s German efficiency for you. Must have been one hell of a conspiracy theory going on though.
Kieran Kinsella
404 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:09:07

I suspect England would have a better showing these days with the tabloids and live forum to rile people up. Kenwright, I am sure, would qualify as a warlock.

Neil Cremin
405 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:10:43
Been away from TW all day hoping to get some football updates and come back to this thread (still) which is now discussing the Irish Civil Kieran, Sean and Christy hope I haven't left anyone out and Danny subtly metamorphosing as a Eurosceptic @#379 & #382

The decision was made to cancel Football this weekend out of respect and to honour the end of a 70-year reign. Totally understandable, since I am fairly sure that only a handful here were born outside that era.

Paul Hewitt
406 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:20:21
Off topic but I see Duncan Ferguson has turned down the Dundee United job. Why would he do that?
Kieran Kinsella
407 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:23:48

Maybe holding out for Rangers? Dundee Utd look odds on for relegation. Not an ideal first job.

Neil Copeland
408 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:25:49
Kieran, surely Rangers would go for a more high profile manager than Duncan (although they did appoint Slippery G I know)?
James Flynn
409 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:39:34
Well, I'm tuning into the Marseilles-Lille game in about an hour. If Gomes is playing, I'll watch. Interested in seeing him compete without English football pace and intensity.
Bernie Quinn
410 Posted 10/09/2022 at 19:41:50
Michael @ 291

Thank you for that, Michael, and I stand corrected. I knew they had been suspended but I thought they had then withdrawn from the Commonwealth. Obviously, I was wrong.

Duncan McDine
411 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:03:35
Reading the comments on this thread is like listening to the ramblings of ‘9 pints in’ philosophers waiting for their kebabs… instructing the fella in the van to go heavy on the hot sauce, so in the morning they won’t have to push so hard.
Stephen Davies
412 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:20:33
Kieran #401,

There was no such place known as "Germany" in those times.

Kieran Kinsella
413 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:26:39

The area now known as Germany, I should have said.

Tony Hill
414 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:29:03
It's pleasing, and surprising, to see that the reflexive stupidity of the Government and Premier League is being opposed by a significant number.

Bit by painful bit, we may yet recover our capacity for reason, and for the proper calculation of risk, harm and benefit.

Sean Kelly
415 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:29:48
Darragh with first hand experience to Dev's snidey cowardly ways, I can truly tell you that De Velera never stood up to anyone except the Irish. He enabled others to do their worst by being a coward. He wanted Ireland neutral in a war against Hitler, for fuck's sake.

Danny and others gave service to the Queen and country and I respect that. The Monarch does not affect me one bit but I hold dearly to the belief that not one blade of grass is worth fighting for. Fight for people's dignity and for their survival but not land.

My family were deeply rooted in their fight for land but, with the passing of time and people demanding change, we now have some stability here. I respect all those that fought for their countries on differing sides.

I also respect that the Queen, on her visit here in 2011, acknowledged all those that fought and died.

Tony Abrahams
416 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:32:58
Driving around Liverpool today in the beautiful sunshine, most of the beautiful people had beautiful smiles on their faces. It made me think of the way our city has been treated by countless governments and especially the bastard who wanted to leave us to managed decline.

I think Grosvenor, the company that created Liverpool One, are a London company, but most of our other help came from European money, and I also wish that, like Ireland, Europe was still an ally of our city!

Kieran Kinsella
417 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:34:14

You're kinda right. Fiji is in the Commonwealth but is no longer ruled by the British Monarch as Head of State.

Ian Bennett
418 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:38:58
Liverpool one is owned by the Duke of Westminster, based in Chester. Probably a blue.
Ian Riley
419 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:48:11
Football should be cancelled this weekend!

Our Queen of grace and honour to her people should be given our sincere respect. All must take time to reflect on her duty to serve and be thankful.

It's only and only football.

Tony Hill
420 Posted 10/09/2022 at 20:55:01
Tony @416, I think that's a very important point.

I voted Brexit and stand by it because I think it will be proved beneficial in the long term economically and in the cause of freedom from globalist, technocratic predators, but you are certainly right that our city did well from Europe and we don't fit easily into the English frame.

I do think that the reaction of Europe, notably of Macron, to the Queen's death has been remarkably gracious, precise and generous. Likewise from President Biden and from so many others, including (oh dear) Trump and Putin.

She did represent something profound which cannot help but cross sensitive boundaries. Goodness, maybe, or at least the appearance and hope of it.

Tony Abrahams
421 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:00:04
Hugh Grosvenor, born in London, but I'm glad he's making a fortune out of our city.

Liverpool One, amongst other things, has definitely helped to improve our city, which is very nearly full to the brim with outsiders, enjoying themselves every weekend.

It has probably helped us gain back a lot of respect from the people of our nation who were brainwashed by the National press not so long ago.

Derek Knox
422 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:14:36
Brent @ 398,

Torquemada this,
Torquemada that,
you couldn't Torquemada out of anything! :-)

Brent Stephens
423 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:18:11
Derek ,you're incorr... incorrig... a bar steward.
Deborah Maria
424 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:28:45
Derek @375,

I thought it was “on a liquid diet”.

Deborah Maria
425 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:32:36
Ian @418

I believe he's a Chester fan. Word has it he wanted to bankroll them under the condition they played in his family colours but they refused.

Deborah Maria
426 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:36:42
That was Gerald, not Hugh.
Tony Abrahams
427 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:39:24
I'm just reading that The Russian Bear has suffered its biggest defeat since 1943 in Ukraine today, with much of the blame being put on the generals who are scared to make a mistake.

That is one of life's biggest sins, imo, and something that finally looks to be slowly disintegrating from the Everton players. 🤞

Darragh Farrell
428 Posted 10/09/2022 at 21:46:55
Ah Sean @415,

The policy of neutrality leaned heavily towards supporting the Allies, such as providing the early weather forecast for D-Day.

Easy to criticise the policy these days but Ireland, a young state at the time taking early steps to build itself up, was hardly in a position to have fought alongside the British in an all-consuming war less than 20 years after fighting them in a War of Independence.

And it wasn't just De Valera that supported the policy, pretty much all the parties at the time supported it.

Alan Corken
429 Posted 10/09/2022 at 22:30:04
Paul Kossoff @372:

I'm glad that you have a German friend who "hates Hitler, the two wars and Nazi sympathizers and the royal family and the red shite." Bit odd for a German to piece all of these together, but hey-ho!

If you want to keep this very special friend, however, I would suggest that you don't tell him that you think his fellow countrymen are "bastards". (PK @165)

Danny O’Neill
430 Posted 10/09/2022 at 22:40:45
It was widely forecast in the Cold War that the Soviet 3rd Shock Army would initially punch a hole into the British Army of the Rhineland-Palatinate. But we would contain and push back as our capability and training was way superior.

The Russian Army of the day is no different. They have numbers, but scratch the surface and it's still mostly ill-trained conscripts with out-dated or no equipment at all. Only their officers are trained to map-read.

Last count estimate they have had 80,000 killed in this conflict. That's the current size of the British Army.

When Skies are Grey. Now there is a nostalgic throwback!

Our city is looking fantastic whenever I come thru. And it's going to get even better with the development of the northern docklands with Everton at the heart and centre of it.

Derek Knox
431 Posted 10/09/2022 at 22:42:51
Tony @ 427, not sure whether that is good news or otherwise.

Of course I support Ukraine but if the defeat was as 'successful' as reported, many Russian families will have lost 'nearest and dearest' and usually young relatively inexperienced soldiers who are not long out of school. They are human beings at the end of the day, enemy or ally.

I often wonder how that is explained from the Russian side to the families concerned, surely they can't be that brain-washed by propaganda to believe that Ukraine was the aggressor in all of this, and how do they cover up their incompetence? It is basically brother on brother, or like Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland fighting England, the anathema of war, eh!

Neil Copeland
432 Posted 10/09/2022 at 22:51:50
It's good that Ukraine is reclaiming cities and pushing the Russians back but it comes at a high cost in life.

I also wonder about how far Putin will go to save face and ensure Russia ‘wins' the conflict?

Don Alexander
433 Posted 10/09/2022 at 22:57:50
Derek, last month, I was in Tallinn, capital of Estonia, right next to Russia. Handwritten signs in many shop and bar windows in the heart of the genuinely lovely centre said "FUCK PUTIN".

We were served a drink by a very pretty lass in her early 20s. She told me she was Russian. She was calm, pleasant, with perfect English. She told me not to believe the corrupt West and their corrupt media.

She said Ukraine was clearly corrupt. Russian media has spelt it out, but nobody in the West was interested.

They're brain-washed in Russia, but they haven't a clue that they are.

It's a bit similar to the UK with its almost entirely right-wing written press owned by megalomaniac dickheads to whom all our politicians always pay homage.

Deborah Maria
434 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:08:29

Did you tell your children about the Tooth Fairy and Father Christmas and then prove their existence?

We're all guilty of brainwashing and being brainwashed.

Bill Watson
435 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:08:35
Stephen #383,

Russia hasn't been a communist country since 1922.

Neil Copeland
436 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:10:36
All the talk of Germany makes me think of a number of years ago when I was working near Hamburg for 3 days a week over a 6 month period. The company I worked for had bought out a small German specialist manufacturer and I was tasked with transferring the operation from Hamburg to our UK factory in Runcorn.

Anyway, after a few visits, I got to know the taxi driver who collected me from the airport over there. His name was Hans and he was trying to improve his English and I was trying to learn a little German.

We would swap pleasantries and do our best to have a conversation, I like to think that we became friends.

One day, Hans decided to ask the inevitable question; “Zo, Neil, who do you think von ze var?”

I replied; “Ah, Hans, that is a loaded question, I think. Who do you think won?”

He smiled and said; “Im Deutschland, ve think it vas a draw!”

I snapped back a little; “That's because you lost!”

He thought this was hilarious and almost crashed the car laughing before finishing with; “Ja, England, sehr gut at var, scheisser at fussball!”

Who ever said Germans do not have a sense of humour got it badly wrong.

Kieran Kinsella
437 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:14:26

It makes me cringe when they talk about liquidating forces. Many of the front-line Russians are indigenous people from the Arctic or Siberia who are from poor areas and seen as expendable by Putin. A lot like I guess many of the wars we've had in the past with cockneys, Irish, Scots, Welsh, scousers, Geordies sent off into the most ferocious battles.

As far as back home goes, don't forget despite a free media and skeptical press, Tony Blair and George Bush had many convinced Saddam had chemical weapons and worse and even a hand in 9/11. If they could pull that off, then a state-controlled media in a dictatorship equipped with pictures of the Azov battalion wearing SS insignias didn't have much trouble pulling wool over eyes in Russia.

Kieran Kinsella
438 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:18:49

I knew they have a sense of humour as I've seen too many Klopp pressers denying Salah dives.

Neil Copeland
439 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:21:33
Kieran, I had forgotten about that Bingo, should be in the big top!
Bill Watson
440 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:31:36
Neil #436,

I agree. I have German friends I made in the 1970s and they have a great sense of humour. I think, culturally, we're very similar.

Deborah Maria
441 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:43:43
I've lived in East and West Germany and the Saxons are very similar to the English and align themselves with the English, ie, Anglo-Saxon.

The same cannot be said for the West Germans who in my experience are arrogant cowards.

Danny O’Neill
442 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:54:38
Always said we and the Germans are more closely aligned than we think, Neil.

I echo the sentiment about respecting those who have fallen on all sides during conflict.

We made a point of treating wounded Taliban fighters. I make a point of visiting the Germa Langemark cemetery near Ipres (Ypres) when I visit most years. It's humbling seeing the thousands of black headstones. Black because they were defeated. The British, Empire and Allies were afforded white headstones as victors.

But I always pay my respects regardless. They served their country and paid the ultimate price.

The EU used Ireland as a bargaining chip to get at the UK. I don't recall them being remotely interested in the 70s or 80s. I have Irish roots.

Stephen Davies
443 Posted 10/09/2022 at 23:59:46

Of course they are – and all Irish are drunkards, Mexicans lazy... and scousers thieves.

Bernie Quinn
444 Posted 10/09/2022 at 00:02:19
Kieran @ 417,

I appreciate that, Kieran. I thought they had done something out of the ordinary. I guess I am just confused in my old age!!

Don Alexander
445 Posted 11/09/2022 at 00:10:59
Deborah (#434),

In my experience, belief in a Tooth Fairy ete etc never led to the killing of tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent people by a despotic ruthless dictator with total control over his nationwide media.

On a lighter note, folks, I'm assured that the succession of our new king will not, in Merseyside at least, require the issue of new banknotes, because in Merseyside all banknotes have for years had "charly" all over them!

Neil Copeland
446 Posted 11/09/2022 at 00:19:15
Danny, I have never been in the military and never had the desire to be either. Fortunately during my lifetime there has been no need for conscription.

However, I have a lot of respect for those who do represent their country in conflict. It's all too easy to pick sides and frown upon the enemy but they are just people at the end of the day who are defending what they believe to be right.

Although I like to think, as do we all probably, that when push comes to shove, I would give my life if necessary for my country and freedom, I am not entirely convinced that I could. Pretty sure I am not alone in that thought/fear.

Kieran Kinsella
447 Posted 11/09/2022 at 00:27:48

I'm right there with you. I imagine I'd be too cowardly for the trenches and feeling guilty. I'd probably lob a few Molotov cocktails from a distance and half-hope they missed.


I love these generalizations. I hear a lot here in America how rude and unfriendly the French are to tourists. Weirdly I've been there many times and found them to be exactly the same as us. Some are nice some are not but most treat you decently if you treat them decently.

Neil Copeland
448 Posted 11/09/2022 at 00:31:22
Kieran, that is my experience of people too and it seems to be like that pretty much the world over. Or at least it is in the countries I have visited.
Stephen Davies
449 Posted 11/09/2022 at 00:44:37
Tony #420,

There are no benefits of Brexit, there never was, unless you can provide some that would benefit me, my children. The benefits hawked about at the time have proven to be lies.

The only beneficiaries will be billionaires and millionaires (which is exactly why they and the International Globalists you mentioned bankrolled it).

This will be done through deregulation of workers' rights, Unions, Banks, tax avoidance.

The acceleration of the break up of the UK is inevitable and, as a result, the Union Flag as we know it will no longer exist.

Don Alexander
450 Posted 11/09/2022 at 01:32:51
Well said, Stephen, but when the Brexit vote came about some of us exposed themselves as being unable to even identify the bleedin' obvious by believing Johnson and his retinue of self-serving creeps, and their mega-rich, exploitative, corporate sponsors.

It'd be laughable if it wasn't so tragically serious for our younger generations now destined to suffer as a consequence.

Kieran Kinsella
451 Posted 11/09/2022 at 02:21:23

Unfortunately, I think the EU will unravel now so we won't suffer as much per se because Russia and other elements are driving wedges in the union.

Self-sufficient countries like Denmark are teetering, there's talk of kicking Hungary out, the Balkan nations can't deliver on promises to tackle corruption, Poland's going nationalist, France and Germany will tire of carrying the load. A real shame.

Like many “British”, I regard myself as European really with Irish, Polish, German etc ancestry. Not to say I'm not English and proud but more so I see the rest of Europe as our extended family if you will. We had a good thing going there for 50 years or so. Alas.

Darragh Farrell
452 Posted 11/09/2022 at 02:50:16

Ireland is part of the EU. Since we are members, and the UK now is not, of course the EU collective will support the interests of Ireland.

A bit condescending to be honest to say Ireland is being used as a bargaining chip. We certainly don't feel that way.

Mike Gaynes
453 Posted 11/09/2022 at 04:32:00
An hour of reading through this thread has been worth more than my entire freshman year of college.

Not that I remember much of that year... but still.

Neil Cremin
454 Posted 11/09/2022 at 04:59:49

For me, a sad waste of time.

What started as a statement concerning the Premier League decision to cancel games as a mark of respect to commemorate the end of a 70-year reign and started with different perspectives on that decision, has become a platform for expressing one's political and prejudicial views.

I for one am not interested in various prejudices being spouted as fact. I can get plenty of that from other platforms.
Can't wait until football returns.

Jerome Shields
455 Posted 11/09/2022 at 05:44:00
Darragh #452,

Actually, Ireland were way ahead of the UK on the implications of Brexit. They set a principle part of the agenda at least 2 years before the EU and the UK began negotiation.

The problem the UK has with Brexit is that it has only been partly implemented and already has been shown to be a completely different animal than what was promised.

Mostly because it was based on politics rather than practicality.

Even preparation and organisation by the government has been half-baked, adding to the problems. The so-called opening up of new beneficial trade is not going to happen. Even when the UK was part of the EU, Ireland were streets ahead of them in opening up beneficial export markets outside the EU, which the UK could gave done legally within the EU.

Quite frankly, the UK government didn't bother even then. So the much-hyped new trade developments are based on a very weak organisational base, which can't even take full advantage of their own Commonwealth connections.

The whole Brexit thing is a satire being played out by now successive Conservative Governments observed by the EU and Ireland wondering how the UK government is going to bluff their citizens that it is fully implemented and beneficial, as they stick fully to the International agreement they have signed with a few allowable fudges to save face by the EU and Ireland.

The main problem the UK have that Brexit was based on principally the aspirations which would get Boris to political power which he has shown himself to be completely unfit to utilise.

The other problem was they were in negotiations with far superior negotiating teams both in the EU and Ireland. Both are well versed in negotiation because of the need within their political systems, both at EU level and nationally to be so.

The hot-air negotiation stance from the start by the UK negotiation team has been quite frankly amateurish. Threats, Off-the-wall statements, ignoring agreements, stonewall stances. The whole lot need to be sent on a basic Trade Union negotiating course. But even that would limit the damage of the previous negotiation debacle.

So to say that Ireland is a bargaining chip is to buy into the UK government narrative, which Ireland is happy that people believe since it is the equivalent of ending up accepting beads for Manhattan. The negotiation jargon for it is 'be an Indian giver'.

Gerry Quinn
457 Posted 11/09/2022 at 07:13:40
On 11 July 1913, Goodison Park became the first English football ground to be visited by a reigning monarch when King George V and his wife Queen Mary – whose statues mark the Liverpool entrance to the Queensway Tunnel underneath the Mersey to Birkenhead after they opened it in 1934 – both attended the Blues' home.

Everton's double royal distinction as King's visit produced biggest crowd at Goodison Park

Danny O’Neill
458 Posted 11/09/2022 at 07:41:31
I know my Irish history, Darragh.

Where was Berlin and Paris in the 1980s? They didn't seem overly concerned with the Irish border back then. An Irish border that was equally easy to cross as it is today.

Yes, there were checkpoints on the main crossings, such as the A1 as you passed Newry, but for hundreds of miles people flowed freely between the two nations. I did myself, often accidentally and without realising until I spotted the road signs and done a u-turn. Unchecked.

I know many who used to travel back and forth depending on where the best deals were in the supermarkets or at the petrol pumps. Politicians with an agenda making a meal out of a mole hill.

It's like the minor but petulant act I've observed at airports these past few years. The UK continues to invite EU citizens to join the same passport queue as those of the UK. When I travel to the EU, I get pushed into the "all other passports" queue. Not that it matters. It's still a queue. Whatever, it's no hassle.

In honesty, and more light-hearted, we were always a reluctant member and a half-way house. We joined the club late and even then were cautious.

We drive on the left and in miles. Yet we do our school races in metres.

We buy in the supermarket in kilogrammes yet weigh ourselves in stones and pounds.

We call ourselves 6 foot tall then say we are 1 metre 82 cm.

We buy our petrol in litres but drink pints.

We didn't join the single currency or Schengen.

Ironically the Conservative Government of the day campaigned for joining. Labour opposed it. During Brexit, the roles were mainly reversed on the political spectrum, but many traditional Labour voters voted leave.

The EU was always a divisive factor for the UK. We are European and remain so. Arguably a better European partner out of the EU than we were in. We will be there on the side just as we always have been and will be.

I'll be on the continent I love this month, next month and in November. I will visit the battlefields of Ipres in December and be in Italy February as well as going to watch Schalke in later that month.

I'm British first, but European. That doesn't mean I'm EU and subservient to Brussels (read Berlin & Paris). Never have been.

And as a grandson of Belfast-born grandfather, I will reiterate my disdain at how Brussels used Northern Ireland as a political bargaining chip. No interest prior to Brexit. That's my view and it will take some shifting.

I'm no raging Brexitier by the way. I think had the EU kept it to a single economy, the UK (and me) would have been comfortable. It's when they started talking about a political union that it changed.

I still find it interesting that countries such as Ireland and the Eastern European countries that spent so long under occupation and direct or indirect occupation are more than willing to give control to another seat of power. Don't you have confidence in yourselves?

Like Scotland, a quarter of my DNA. They should be able to choose what they want. But "freedom" from Westminster to only transfer control to Brussels? Is that independence? They'll still be subject to rules and regulations.

Jim Jennings
459 Posted 11/09/2022 at 08:04:34
“The EU used Ireland as a bargaining chip to get at the UK. I don't recall them being remotely interested in the 70s or 80s. I have Irish roots.”

More arrogant bluster. If you want to know how “interested” the EU was in Ireland in the '70s or '80s, just take a look at the massive signs entering many of the motorways in Ireland and see who literally paid for the road networks being what they are today.

In the almost 50 years Ireland has been in the EU, nobody “over there in Brussels” has tried to eliminate the language, ban the religion, destroy the culture, remove people from their land, gerrymandered to keep one-half of the population without a voice at parliament or generally suppress the population.

There's a massive difference between “control” and being part of a union which has greatly helped – literally paid for in a lot of cases – Ireland to move on from the legacy of colonialism to being one of the most developed countries in the world. Ask any fisherman in Donegal what a hard border would do to their livelihood.

But hey ho, ToffeeWeb's resident Alan Partridge “knows his Irish history” and has decreed that the nation doesn't have confidence to govern itself.

Andrew Clare
460 Posted 11/09/2022 at 08:27:30
Now would be a good time to abolish the Monarchy.

It's very sad that someone very privileged has died and very sad for their very privileged family but really the Monarchy is an archaic institution that has no place in today's world. It's a symbol of inequality and, for me, everyone is equal.

Robert Tressell
461 Posted 11/09/2022 at 08:49:07
Interesting stuff.

My observation is that Brexit means there's now a good chance in, say, 10 to 15 years, that England and an increasingly restless Wales will be flanked by an independent Scotland and a United Ireland, both in the EU.

Danny, you ask why countries like Ireland don't have the confidence to go it alone.

My question in response is why don't we have the confidence to be leaders within the EU? Why, with our advanced economy and population, did we seem to think we had to be subservient to the will of Paris, Berlin and more generally Brussels?

Whatever the case, we'll be subservient from here on in, quietly aligning ourselves with EU standards out of necessity.

Geoff Lambert
462 Posted 11/09/2022 at 08:53:44
Neil #454,

Well said, that man.

The Queen is dead long live the Blues.

Terry Farrell
463 Posted 11/09/2022 at 09:08:08
Guys the footy is back on from Tuesday!!!

Get the ball back out and fuck the politics off!


Neil Cremin
464 Posted 11/09/2022 at 09:14:37

From someone whose posts I always enjoyed, I can't believe the anger in that last post.

You're entitled to your opinion but it is your perspective of things – not the facts.

Derek Knox
465 Posted 11/09/2022 at 09:15:02
Terry @ 463,

Have you ever thought about joining The Diplomatic Corps?

Thanks for the good news, hope it's not Fake News! 🤔😜😂👍💙

Brian Murray
466 Posted 11/09/2022 at 09:25:07
The UK voted to leave the EU because our borders were getting out of control and migrants were saturating the job market with no free movement the other way. Who would go to Poland etc on less than half the wage in their right mind?

No-one I know voted worrying about a soft or hard Irish border or taxing on goods. Not going all Nigel Farage, I'm just amazed and let down these politicians still to this day don't know or care the reason we voted Yes. Waste of time really.

Stu Darlington
467 Posted 11/09/2022 at 09:31:58

The answer to your question is relatively simple.

We were not subservient go to the will of Paris or Berlin, but we were to the will of Brussels.

We were one vote in about 27 Countries – all with heavily vested interests in how much they could screw out of the EU budget. And we all know how highly regarded the UK is in Europe!

An economic agreement on trade and tariffs could have been made to work, but even then we were screwed by the Common Agricultural Policy, that set prices at an artificially high level to protect European farmers. Remember the butter mountains and wine lakes?

Self-interest again... To project that same self-interest into a Federal States of Europe does not seem to me to be in the best interests of the UK.

Terry Farrell
468 Posted 11/09/2022 at 09:32:52
Ha ha, Derek, no – but every facet of politics is divisive with very few right and wrong answers!! ⚽️⚽️
Stephen Davies
469 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:09:16
Ah yes, the will of Brussels, that made it illegal to dump raw sewage in our sea & rivers.

Has anyone yet come up with any tangible benefits for any of us?

Michael Lynch
470 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:09:51
There seems to be a massive backlash against the football authorities for cancelling the games this weekend.

Journalists, ex-players, fans all making the same points - why did everyone else keep calm and carry on, but not football? Why weren't football fans and clubs given the opportunity to pay their respects in the way cricket was yesterday?

Too late now, but what a shame. Yet again, the people who run football get it completely wrong, so terrified of doing the wrong thing, that they take knee-jerk decisions that make no sense.

Martin Mason
471 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:13:04
God Save Jug Windsor.
Liam Heffernan
472 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:15:24

I always read your posts with interest and enjoyment but your take on Ireland and the EU is way off the mark.

As Jim Jennings said, the EU was hugely positive in the development of Ireland.

UK voted for Brexit and that's the path you're on but please don't try and justify it by using us in the argument.

Let's stick to our common love which is Everton.

Chris Taggart
473 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:16:03
The decision should have gone to VAR!
Stephen Davies
474 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:16:35
Ah yes the Fisheries and Agricultural policy that allowed British fishermen and farmers to sell their produce to a free market of 500M people on their doorstep.

Now the fishermen are angry and the fruit & veg remains rotting in the ground because free movement for the seasonal pickers has been removed.

Steve Brown
475 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:17:43
Brexit was a vote to make the country poorer, and it has succeeded very well.
Neil Copeland
476 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:26:18
Chris #273, they would have considered it to not be a clear and obvious error.
Brian Harrison
477 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:26:51
Michael 470,

I think the idea that permeates through decision-makers is that football fans can't be trusted, hence why Cricket, Golf and Horse racing will be on this weekend. Maybe the Liverpool fans booing the National Anthem at Wembley was a consideration, that this could be repeated at other grounds if the National Anthem had been played.

I think what we as football fans have to ask is why are football fans treated so differently by their governing bodies?

When we look at Cricket and Rugby, two sports that use video replay, the fans in the stadium are shown what the officials are looking at and can hear the ref and the video officials discussing their decisions.

Yet football fans can't be trusted to hear or see what the officials are looking out. Certainly the other sports don't have the hooligan problems that persisted through the '70s and still simmer just below the surface.

I do wonder if the politics of the '70s was another reason why fans protested, which also had people rioting in the street.

Brian Murray
478 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:28:37
Another Irish uprising, no spuds involved.

They are coming for you, Danny! 😳

Jerome Shields
479 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:30:28
Michael #470

The problem is that the mess is continually unfolding. What do they do now with events up to the 19th, which is another two weekends away?

The decision to cancel fixtures this weekend took football out of the mourning process with no means for clubs, players or fans to be able to pay their respects in person.

Now, they have to get back into the process with a packed schedule both on and off the field right in the middle of the mourning process proper.

Neil Copeland
480 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:51:49
Jerome, one could say that football has royally ballsed it up.

On a personal note, it saddens me that I cannot pay my respects en masse in a packed stadium. Football fans are very good at paying their respects. Some people will find an occasion such as that as their only means of relief which in turn will comfort them and actually help to give the country a boost at a very sad time.

Do the authorities know nothing of our history? We have always stood together in adversity. The owner of an American company I used to work for called us the world's best fire-fighters.

We should have been given the opportunity to fight this particular fire in a way that we do well. Free country, my arse!

Neil Copeland
481 Posted 11/09/2022 at 10:59:34
Another thought occurred to me, maybe they have delayed the opportunity for paying respects until that lot are playing away from home so any boos for the National Anthem will be largely drowned out by the home support.
George Cumiskey
482 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:03:30
Not one person I spoke to – and I mean not one single person who I know voted for Brexit – knew anything about the financial implications or loss of trade.

Everyone of them to a man said they voted for it because they believed the lies of Farage and Johnson that immigration would stop and £350 million a week would go to the NHS.

I wonder how many would vote for it now?

Will Mabon
483 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:06:56
"On 11 July 1913, Goodison Park became the first English football ground to be visited by a reigning monarch when King George V and his wife Queen Mary..."

Gerry, interesting. Yet another Everton first (of which I didn't know). A new one seems to surface periodically. Some club, this.

Andrew Clare
484 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:09:13
Brexit was what the billionaire backers of the Conservative party wanted so that their tax dodging/evading offshore investments wouldn't be investigated.

Our beloved Queen and her family also have these offshore investments along with the foreign domiciled billionaire newspaper barons who feed the lies to the public.

Meanwhile, the rest of us pay our taxes and question nothing.

Sean Kelly
485 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:10:52

I have enjoyed reading your posts regarding the club we both love but you are misrepresenting my country and are viewing it through your military prism.

I'm a proud grandson of a proud Irishman from Dungannon. I'm sorry I can't believe your statement of knowing Irish history. Berlin and Paris in the '80s were supporting Ireland in building a proper roads network and developing an economy.

In the '80s, Ireland was (and still is) a young country finding its way after years of neglect. how can you truly believe that HM's Governments have had the interests of Ireland at its core?

I have been on ToffeeWeb for a good few years now and never once brought politics on here but you are talking shite. My family has suffered greatly and some have paid the ultimate price for the failures and neglect of your Governments. So for you to slag off Ireland for finding its feet on the world stage through both the EU and the US is ridiculous.

Like I said earlier, Danny, I respect your allegiances but the prism which you view our history is blurred. Take the blinkers off.

Sorry, Michael and Lyndon, for the history rant. I fucking wish the football was on and we could concentrate on our shared love all things Everton and our shared dislike of Kenwight.

Brent Stephens
486 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:16:36
In all the talk of the pros and cons of the EU (ironically interespersed with other unrelated posts about wars and associated deaths and mutilation) there seems to have been no mention of the original driver for the EU (EC, Common Market, ECSC in previous formats) – the desire to never again see war in Europe, never again see so many deaths and so much suffering.

My dad fought in WW2, received his medals, as countless others did – but never took them out of the drawer, never flaunted them, just cried at the futility of it all.

If for no other reason, that original, defining objective of what is now the EU made it of such importance for me.

People say Berlin and Paris dominate the EU ("Brussels"). My understanding is that the UK voted in favour of over 90% of all proposed EU legislation, and initiated a significant part of that (as just one example from my own area, we led the development of the academic regulatory framework for the university sector – based largely on our own UK framework). If people don't like EU legislation, then they should ask why we sent Commissioners to the EU to draft that legislation, and MEPs to the European Parliament to vote for it so often?

Seems to me that people don't like democracy when the democratic vote goes against their preferences. Should one country in 27 have greater voting right? As we keep being told, people died for democracy.

We had equal representation at the European Council – every country sends its head of state / government or representative.

We had the second largest MEP representation, proportionate to our population size, so significant voting power. And it's obviously UK voters who put the MEPs in the European Parliament.

The European Commission, as the executive of the EU, operates as a cabinet government. Again, we had equal representation on the Commission.

As Robert #461 says, "Whatever the case, we'll be subservient from here on in, quietly aligning ourselves with EU standards out of necessity." But with no voting rights – oh the irony! Subject to the preferences of Germany and France but now with no voting rights!

Stephen #449 rightly points up deregulation of workers rights, unions, the financial sector etc that some want with exit from the EU – let's see who gains from that, the common man or... Stephen #474 – yes, our fishermen and farmers already losing out – the very people pointed to as the losers when we were part of the EU. That's working out well.

But my original point – peace in Europe above all else.

Alan McGuffog
487 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:19:17
Certain people are throwing their dummies out over the cancellation of a weekends footy, due to the death of our Head of State. (Head of State – whatever your view on the Monarchy ).

To place a timely reminder, there will be no club footy from mid-November until Boxing Day because of a jamboree aimed at advertising Coca-Cola, Vodafone, Heineken, and, for all I know, Preparation H.

This jamboree will be held in a country with scant regard for human rights. Games will be played in front of HRH David Beckham, in stadiums built by impoverished guest workers from South Asia, scores of whom died in the process.
But hey... enjoy!

Gerard McKean
488 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:22:39
I've tried to keep out of this thread; posters whose views on Everton and football in general I usually enjoy and respect do not inspire similar feelings when they spout their often myopic political beliefs. The fascists like Farage and Rees-Mogg will be delighted with these spurious allusions to “subservience to the will of” etc.

Every country/organisation/club/federation has its rules. Most of us think it's ok to play by the rules; a law-based system sets out the norms. Obeying them does not make us “subservient”; not obeying them leads to anarchy.

I can't figure out a single tangible benefit to Brexit, except of course in further enriching the likes of Farage with his dual nationality, dual passport family, or Rees-Mogg with his now EU (Dublin) based family financial interests.

I know of no-one in my extensive family and friends in Ireland who feel in any way “subservient” and those of them in Scotland hope to rejoin the EU as soon as Scotland becomes independent of Westminster. Yes, the inevitable break up of the United Kingdom: another “Brexit dividend”?

I wonder how many red crosses of St George flags we'll see in Gwladys Street?

Michael Kenrick
489 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:23:46
Seriously, you're still bitching and moaning about Brexit?

I suspect for many it was escaping from the madness of the Brussels bureaucracy that may have been a more meaningful dividend.

But whatever – it's a done deal (Thanks to Boris!) and there is no going back.

Brent Stephens
490 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:31:52
Michael #489 – as per my post at #486, the UK was a significant part of all that "Brussels bureaucracy". We initiated much of, and voted for most of, the "bureaucratic" legislation.
Neil Copeland
491 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:36:08
Alan #487,

Fair comment but I don't think The Queen would have wanted the games to be postponed and to me, it would have been better for supporters to have the opportunity to show their feelings in person. That's not intended to be disrespectful in any way just my views,

The thought of the upcoming World Cup is sobering I agree.

Right, where did I put the jam now that I have my dummy back……

Gerard McKean
492 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:37:05
Michael, seriously, you thank Johnson?

I'm off, mate. Enjoy waving your red and white flag.

Alan McGuffog
493 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:39:34

Good point anyway, when you get into the Black Lion on Welsh Row I'll dip your dummy into a pint of Weetwood's Best for you. Kills all known germs. And livers.

Raymond Fox
494 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:41:45
Forget Brexit.

The biggest threat to people's quality of life in the UK, especially England, is overpopulation. It has gone up 3½ million since 2011, that's 320,000 per year on average, that's crazy on this small island.

If I was young, I would be angry. I remember the time the population was under control, it's not now.

Neil Copeland
495 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:44:40
Alan, thanks I will hold you to that, sounds like a proper cure to me.
Brian Murray
496 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:44:53

Brexit, as has been pointed out, was to benefit the NHS as well as an immigration cap. None of the above has happened.

Barry Lightfoot
497 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:47:09
Ray 494,

I've been saying this for years, the population explosion has to end. It's not just this country either, it's the whole world and not one of our useless self-serving politicians appears to be doing a thing about it.

Gawd help our kids, I wish I'd never had them.

Brian Murray
498 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:51:40
Didn't know this new Prime Minister worked for Shell and took a £100k off them.

The profit they have they don't know what to do with it and would've happily been taxed on it to prevent this hardship that many of us will have this winter.

Scandalous and ignorant, the haves and have-nots, different planets.

Andrew Clare
499 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:54:34

Very disappointed to hear that you are a Brexiteer.

Tony Everan
500 Posted 11/09/2022 at 11:54:42
Barry 497,

The Queen, as usual, is doing her bit.

Will Mabon
501 Posted 11/09/2022 at 12:13:38

"...the UK was a significant part of all that "Brussels bureaucracy". We initiated much of, and voted for most of, the "bureaucratic" legislation."

Great mechanism for third-partying and deflecting blame, eh? "It's Europe" - a grumble, quick shrug of defeat, then on with life. Meanwhile, same in all other countries subject to the agenda. Not your domestic government; Europe.

What is it the media always called them - Faceless bureaucrats. So who went after those faces? No-one. It fades away like mist.

Today, it doesn't matter. It's all being played out in full view, by the day. Many are defeated, many don't know or want to know, many don't care.

Steve Brown
502 Posted 11/09/2022 at 12:22:49
Don't think we are bitching and moaning about Brexit, we are just laughing at it.

You would have thought the island was going to tilt out of the sea there were so many millions of migrants arriving, the NHS would get billions more, everyone's salary would go up, mega trade deals and low taxation would make us the global commercial and technology powerhouse.

And people fell for it!

Even lying Boris didn't believe that shit, he just spouted it so he could be Prime Minister. You are all poorer after Brexit than you were before, but you'll get a blue passport again so don't worry.

Brian Murray
503 Posted 11/09/2022 at 12:33:04
There will only ever be one King.

Our Andy... RIP.

Stephen Davies
504 Posted 11/09/2022 at 12:45:40
Michael.. Brussels bureaucracy?

What kind of Brussels bureaucracy did you encounter in your daily life? Personally, I didn't experience any.

As opposed to now waiting at airports in a long queue getting your passport stamped or completing shed loads of paperwork to export a box of goods?

What tangible benefits have all here gained?

Christy Ring
505 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:06:58

As a proud Irish man, and delighted we are a member of the EU, I love your football and Everton knowledge, but your view and knowledge of Irish politics is totally wrong.

As an outsider looking in on your decision to leave the EU, in my opinion, the lies and propaganda from Nigel Farage, a huge Trump buddy, and a member of the European Party for 21 years, and now on a massive European pension by the way, and Boris Johnson, went a long way to turn the British voters against remaining in Europe, in my opinion.

Danny O’Neill
506 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:11:21
I guess I hit a nerve so I apologise for those who have a different view and disagree with me.

I love Ireland, a country where I have roots and family origins.

I love Europe, a continent I visit frequently. The EU 6 times this year with more to come. I personally haven't noticed much difference. Just as I haven't in my life in general.

Once again, no offence meant so sorry if I offended. It doesn't change my view though.

Derek Knox
507 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:20:05
Brian M, true mate, Tony Abrahams sent me a video clip of Andy scoring ' that goal' past Ray Clemence at Goodison (1978) I remember that game I was in Upper Bullens, and if memory serves it was our first win in 14 against them.

Mind you, what they usually, and conveniently fail to mention, is that many of that 14 have been draws. But that would make Liverpool look less successful.

I actually met him in the Blenheim Hotel (now The Lakeside) on the edge of Sefton Park Lake, which, retrospectively must have been not long before his passing. I didn't recognise him to be honest, it was a fellow Evertonian workmate who mentioned it.

He was doing a Sportsman's Dinner but, for some reason, I didn't go to it. I was working on the Hotel electrical system at the time when they upgraded and installed showers in every room.

As you say, RIP Andy, a true legend back in the day. He came from Luton Town if I remember too, fell in love with the club, supporters, and Liverpool in general. I think we sold him, can't remember who to, but shortly after he came back for a second stint but didn't quite reach the heights of his first (very few players ever do) but great memories, eh?

Brent Stephens
508 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:28:42

I don't think anybody believes for a second that you mean to offend, in anything you write.

On the contrary, I've seen somebody who used to post, but no longer posts, in this parish let rip with personal comments against you – and your restraint was admirable, better than mine!

My views on the EU are different from yours but I hope we all respect each other's views while maybe continuing to hold our original position, with no need to apologise for those views.

Hope to see you, Jamie and your lad at the Southampton game!

And you, Neil, see you Southampton I hope – did you get my number from the Editors? If not, it's okay for Danny to let you have it – I think he gave you his number.

Danny O’Neill
509 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:34:48
Sean Kelly, you'd probably be surprised on my view of Ireland's rights as a nation, much to my late Grandfather's distain.

Likewise, when Scotland goes independent, should the people choose, they deserve the right to determine their own fate. Not all will, but that's democracy.

As I've said previously, I'm half Liverpool Irish Catholic, quarter Northern Irish and quarter Scottish. A true British mongrel who understands different standpoints in this complex nation of ours.

My view on how the EU use Ireland as a bargaining tool shouldn't be confused with my view on Ireland's right to self-determination or my view of Ireland. Just like any referendum, that is down to the democratic vote.

My main point on the EU and UK relationship is that we have always been split down the middle, hence the closeness of the outcome.

I'll still be able to go to Ireland, Scotland and any country in Europe that I choose to. Once everyone stops sulking, we'll still be friends.

Neil Copeland
510 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:37:57
Brent, not got your number yet but I have swapped details with Danny so, yes hoping to see you at Southampton.

Danny, I would just like to endorse Brent's comments. We all have our own views and opinions and have a right to speak it in a respectful way which you always do.

See you at Southampton.

Danny O’Neill
511 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:39:59
Thank you, Brent. I'll see you at Southampton and arrange to meet up with Neil too.

If Rob Halligan is reading whilst chomping on his popcorn, maybe we can form a gathering!

Any news on next week's fixtures?

Slightly off topic even though we went from the Queen to the EU (!!), my son and I noted that the United home fixture is scheduled for 7pm on a Sunday evening.

Now without sounding selfish, but even for local supporters in the Merseyside area and travelling fans from Manchester, another example of the league and the authorities not considering fans?

Will Mabon
512 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:40:38
Funny the memories, Derek.

I felt King barely played when he returned, but having just checked, I see he in fact played about half the games and maintained the same one-in-four scoring rate... same as across his whole career.

An effortlessly good midfielder that could do much of it at a relaxed trot, cos he was ahead of it mentally. He was always looking around at what was going on.

Odd that he left the first time and I don't remember why? (Big profit though).

Dermot O'Brien
513 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:46:21
WOW! What a thread!

As an Irishman, I'm glad to read that following some spurious comments, the Land of Song has been defended by many Warrior Bards.

Looking at it now, with other sports going ahead over the weekend, it was a knee-jerk reaction from the FA/PL. Hopefully none of them ever have the nuclear codes.

Regarding the Queen, I think it has been absolutely disgusting, the amount of vitriol and abuse directed at her in some areas recently. She represented something that many of us might not agree with but to associate her with slavery, murder, famine and oppression, mostly in preceding centuries, is beyond belief.



Neil Copeland
514 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:49:33
I was just watching the TV coverage of events at Buckingham Palace. The reporter asked a member of the public about a car entering the palace with Camilla in it; “Are you really pleased to see a Royal?”

“Oh yes, over the moon to see a Royal,” the excited lady said.

I almost spat out my tea laughing, made it sound like they had seen a rare breed of badger or bird.

Neil Cremin
515 Posted 11/09/2022 at 13:52:14
Back to TW and still the only thread.

Lyndon/Michael, is there any football news and leave Her Majesty to rest in peace?

Danny, from me, no offence taken but surprised at the intensity of the thread, but you are very much entitled to the views expressed.

I'm sure the dogs got a good walk this morning.

Brian Murray
516 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:04:16
Will Charles now address the nation – or is he still only comfortable talking to his plants?
Neil Copeland
517 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:10:35
Brian, ah, so that’s what he meant about feeding and watering us all!
Danny O’Neill
518 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:15:46
Sorry, but just watching the BBC coverage and given how this thread and my views have been taken (Danny the Europhile), the irony is not lost on me that Her Majesty is being driven through rebellious Scotland in a Mercedes (German)!!

The woman unites even in her death!!

Pete Neilson
519 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:22:17
Only one Andy King, happy memories.

Great highlights from that game including the infamous interview on the pitch.


Dave Cashen
520 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:27:12
Brian 516,

The artist formerly known as Prince is due to address the nation later.

Don't expect the TV viewing record to be threatened...

Chris Williams
521 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:27:33

The House of Windsor was the house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha until WW1 when it was changed because of anti-German feeling.

The family name of Battenburg was ‘anglicised' to Mountbatten, Philip's Family name.

So a bit more German than the Merc!

Like everyone else on this Island, go back far enough and you find all sorts!

Stephen Davies
522 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:30:37
Indeed Chris.
They were Economic Migrants.
Danny O’Neill
523 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:50:35
As I've said, Chris, I'm a mongrel and have a soft spot for Germany. I believe WW1 was also the time we re-named the German Shepherd as an Alsatian after the previously Germanic speaking French region of Alsace that has since been Francophiled.

Schalke won yesterday. A steady start for the Konigsblauen (Royal Blues) on their return to the top Tier, although they did suffer a proper thumping from Union Berlin, who are giving Bayern a run for their money right now.

If you like football documentaries, watch the one on Union. They are from the old East Germany (DDR) and one of the chants was classic. "We've got your Capital". It relates to the fact that the centre of Berlin was mostly, if not all, in East Berlin during the post-war and Cold War period.

Dave Roberts
524 Posted 11/09/2022 at 14:57:53
Just a reminder that Shankly was never more wrong. Football is not more important than life and death... It is a fucking game. No more and no less.

If it's beyond the ability of some to show some respect to a woman who has been our head of state for 70 years, who served as a teenager in the war, who is respected all over the world as the quintessential and calming diplomatic presence wherever she went, who charmed some of the most evil twats in the world to quiescence so that even Putin could not say anything but good about her this week, then you really do need to reassess your fucking priorities.

Sean Kelly
525 Posted 11/09/2022 at 15:15:35
Danny 506 and 509, no offence taken, lad.

The trick is to let people see life through different prisms.

Jerome Shields
526 Posted 11/09/2022 at 15:16:43
Actually, the Constitutional Monarchy is going to sort everything.

The Queen passing in Scotland and laying in state in Edinburgh is going to set Scottish independence back years. The cost of living crisis will decrease since it will move off the media agenda. Truss will have a full three years of firstly a state funeral, secondly a Coronation, and thirdly the Investiture of the Prince of Wales to move Protocol, Recession, Brexit implementations failures and Channel crossings down the media agenda.

In the meantime, in Ireland, cross-border trade will increase beyond its present 80% increase. The UK land bridge has disappeared and the Irish ports of Greenore, Dublin, Rosslaire, Cork and others will treble in capacity on present rate expansion to facilitate direct EU trade, with Irish businesses continuing to make a seamless transition to the new Brexit Regime.

Business in Ireland will double in number helped by UK business relocation and there will be a doubling of English Immigration into Northern Ireland which is already underway, as movement to Europe is prevented by 90-day residency rules for UK citizens, UK business relocation, remote working, and lower property values

I was talking to my friend last week who owns three fish processing factories. Asked him how Brexit affected his labour supply. He said they all left in a bus and the next day their replacements arrived on the same bus when it returned. The UK has never been able to control immigration and never will.

As for the Protocol, it is has been a economic success for Northern Ireland business with a 95% seamless transition rate, particularly in Agriculture. This contrasts with difficulties which UK businesses are having as they increasing circumvent Brexit when they can.

Money talks at the end of the day, no matter what the politicians say. The next 5 years will see one of the biggest fudges in history, as the so-called success of Brexit is heralded, with no actual substance.

Actually, the Premier League are so off the game postponing matches, you would wonder how they run anything.

Danny O’Neill
527 Posted 11/09/2022 at 15:31:14
Absolutely, Jerome. I even play Devil's Advocate with myself a lot of the time.

Jerome, the point on immigration is an important one and was a red herring in the Brexit debate. The UK and dare I say, Ireland has always been built on immigration and migration.

Saxons from what we now call Germany, Vikings from Scandanavia, Normans from what we now call northern France. Not to mention the internal migration of the native Gaelic people of our islands. And then the peoples of the Empire and Commonwealth who have added so much to our country.

Liverpool as a city should understand that more than anyone else. The oldest black and oldest Chinese communities in the UK. Something we should be proud of.

Brendan McLaughlin
528 Posted 11/09/2022 at 15:33:26
Dave #524

"even Putin could not say anything but good about her this week"

Bit of a back-handed compliment that?

Danny O’Neill
529 Posted 11/09/2022 at 15:35:53
And thanks Sean - we come on here to discuss and debate.

All views are welcome and appreciated.

Dave Roberts
530 Posted 11/09/2022 at 15:50:08

Back handed compliment? To whom?

The man's a twat yet he couldn't find an insult about her? That says reams about her, not him, not me and certainly not about faulty logic from you.

Chris Williams
531 Posted 11/09/2022 at 15:56:19
Like most scousers, I'm a bit of a Heinz 57 myself, Danny,

Welsh from my paternal grandfather, Liverpool from my parents, my paternal grandmother, O'Connor from Derry City, my maternal grandmother from Neston, where I live now, same road, who was a Devaney from Cork, whose parents came over via Parkgate after the Famine.

My maternal grandfather, a Hendry, from Liverpool, whose parents were from Edinburgh, and grandparents from Ulster when their name was Henratty. Anti-Irish discrimination?

The local churchyard here is full of my ancestors, and my mum was named Winefrede after the Saint the church is dedicated to.

I reckon I could have played football for all the ‘home' nations, but for the fact that I was crap!

Stephen (522),

Don't tell Pritti Patel!

Joe McMahon
532 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:01:50
I haven't read all the comments (so apologies if someone's already stated), but apparently the UK government has told the Premier League, EFL and Football Association that games will be allowed to go ahead as planned next weekend.

I'm glad about this as, with the international break, it would have been October before we get a chance to win a league match, and then there is the "Pain in the Arse" 2022 World Cup

John McFarlane Snr
533 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:02:49
Hi Danny [529],

When I served in the Army [1956-59] we were forbidden to discuss religious and political subjects, it's a pity that the same standard isn't enforced by the ToffeeWeb hierarchy.

Dave Abrahams and I, had comments deleted because we were praising the merits of two of Liverpool's finest boxers, Jimmy Lloyd and Harry Scott, both of whom I had the pleasure of working with.

The reason given for the deletions was, "This is an Everton football platform".

Des Farren
534 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:04:55
Michael #489,

"But whatever, it's a done deal" Really?

On your third Prime Minister, none of whom really believed in Brexit. Britain has been in decline long before Brexit – the Tories knew it of course but it suited them to have someone to blame and EU fit the bill nicely.

Johnson saw his opportunity and hitched his wagon to a London bus fuelled by English nationalism, fears of foreigners and immigration and fantasies of "freedom". And that's before we even come to the Northern Ireland protocol and free trade agreements.

Done? Hardly.

Brent Stephens
535 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:14:49
Chris #531,

"I reckon I could have played football for all the ‘home' nations, but for the fact that I was crap!"

As you were crap, Chris, you should have played for Scotland or Wales, or (Northern) Ireland (depending on who's reading my post!). You could have done us English (mongrels) a favour.

Ciarán McGlone
536 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:15:44
Native Gaelic people?

Did they defrost from the ice?

This thread is a shambles... ToffeeWeb is becoming a cross between the British Legion and the ERG... and no amount of Tressell mitigates it.

Kieran Kinsella
537 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:24:45
Danny and Joe,

I read yesterday that Richard Masters cancelled games as he feared fans would boo the national anthem or minutes silence and make the EPL look bad.

If that's true, I think he's mistaken as shown by Hammers fans the other night. If he's right, then while distasteful to witness, aren't we enabling such morons if we do a cover-up?

We have issues with “fans” racially abusing players but the police and media rightly name and shame them and, where possible, prosecute. Obviously you can't prosecute louts for booing a national anthem but, if they did, then let them and their club deal with the negative backlash. Don't just sweep it under the carpet.

Tony Hill
538 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:25:14
I forgot; there's another thing that made the majority vote for Brexit. It was the impregnable condescension of the liberal bourgeoisie knowing what was best for the simple masses.

Perhaps, as well, we might wait a little longer than 6 years before pronouncing historical truths.

Joe McMahon
539 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:30:02

I really hope they do go ahead, and the fans of the club we all know too well may boo the anthem again, and show the world what they are like.

Chris Williams
540 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:31:46
Brent (535),

Jesus, if you knew some of the bloody reprobates around my family, you'd think twice about upsetting any of them.

Particularly those Devaneys!

Kieran Kinsella
541 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:33:31

Exactly. Although somehow they'll spin it to be victims:

“We were booing the Wolves fans cause we thought they'd boo the anthem.”

Kieran Kinsella
542 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:39:17
Seems they're having the same debate in Australia.

They announced a minute's silence for women's football then cancelled it saying it might offend indigenous people but prominent indigenous people have now said that's not true and they should have had it.

Bobby Mallon
543 Posted 11/09/2022 at 16:42:19
Being in the EU or out of the EU doesn't matter one bit.

Our fishing industry was bad in it and out of it.

Asylum seekers! Loads came here whilst we where in it, loads come here whilst we are out of it.

It does not matter if we are in or out we still get screwed one way or another. The only difference is MEPs can't claim any money.

Danny O’Neill
544 Posted 11/09/2022 at 17:11:25
Okay, Ciararan, let me rephrase if that offends. The native people of our islands that have been enriched by immigration. I just hear the other nations referred to as Gaelic when we talk Rugby Union.

Totally, Kieran. We should have carried on and shown respect. Those who didn't would have been called out. And we know who the most likely suspects would have been.

I could have played for Northern Ireland or Scotland. I think I'd fancy my chances, but I only ever wanted to play for Everton. I was fortunate enough to wear the shirt and grace the pitches of Bellefield.

God bless Terry Darracott. He really encouraged and made me welcome. Even though I realised very quickly I wasn't that standard, as good as I thought I was. Good enough to have them look at me but I was a late developer in terms of size and confidence.

John Senior, nothing wrong with giving credit, even if they are the dark side. Alan Hansen is possibly the best British footballing centre-back I've watched.

Bill Gall
545 Posted 11/09/2022 at 17:20:56
With the talks about different governments, neither of them when in power will change their disgraceful treatment of their retired pensioners who chose to retire to a Commonwealth Country, like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, for work or to maybe be closer to family.

That is, once you move to a Commonwealth Country, the pension you earned while working in the UK, unlike non-Commonwealth Countries, will never be upgraded.

My wife and myself both worked for over 20 years in Liverpool and received the allotted pension for the time worked, and 15 years after first receiving it, it is still the same amount that may change with the exchange rate.

Prior to an election, the opposition always say it is a disgrace not to treat all pensioners equal and if they get in they will change it. This has been since 1960, governments have changed; pensions have not.

Sorry to get political but just showing all governments' disrespect to a portion of their seniors.

Tony Hill
546 Posted 11/09/2022 at 17:58:03
Kieran @537, I think they were worried only about the Red Shite who have recent form in the matter.

But why so, when you analyse it? Our Gobshite Brothers and Sisters are forever blameless, so there was no need to be concerned at all, really, was there?

Jerome Shields
547 Posted 11/09/2022 at 18:09:39
Danny #544,

You probably remember in the '80s numerous illegal immigrants working away prior to the single market. All over the UK there is an underground economy where they are working away and eventually integrating into the community.

I find it ironic when people were saying they were taking all the jobs. If you don't see immigrants working, there are no jobs anyway in those areas.

I knew a guy called Chico in London who hid from traffic wardens because he thought they were the police. He proposed marriage at least twice a week, much to the amusement of the women involved.

He had endless communication from the authorities, none of which he could read or understand.

I came across him 5 years later and expressed surprise to a Colleague that he had not been deported. My Colleague just said 'he baffled them'.

It is the same now and impossible to control when it is outside any system. When the UK was in the EU, it was in a system and those in the system were competing for those jobs.

In June, I was sitting in a solicitor's office, waiting, and there was an Immigration Newsletter in which a legal head of an immigration organisation detailed how ineffective the current government policies and proposed legal changes would have on Immigration. She actually supposed her findings with figures that showed immigration would increase.

Bill #545

In Australia alone there are approx 500, 000 expats not receiving increases to their UK State Pension.

Derek Knox
548 Posted 11/09/2022 at 18:20:44
Neil @Copeland, “Oh yes over the moon to see a Royal” the excited lady said.

I almost spat out my tea laughing, made it sound like they had seen a rare breed of badger or bird.

She's a bit less Royal than the biological stains in Joe's (different spelling) underwear!

Classic hanger-on, like so many others in that set-up!

James Hughes
549 Posted 11/09/2022 at 18:28:20
Talking about immigrants taking local jobs. I remember loads of Britsih brickies going to Germany in the early '80s. No work or money here so they all buggered off to Deutschland where they found work because they were cheap labour and part of the EU.

Of course that is completely different to those Poles who, errrmm, came to Britain because the wages were good and they were part of the EU and took all the local jobs.

Raymond Fox
550 Posted 11/09/2022 at 18:43:11
On the subject of origins, apparently on average each of us have ~3% Neanderthal DNA; I would suggest some supporters have more than that.
Neil Copeland
551 Posted 11/09/2022 at 18:46:25
Derek, yes mate I agree

Raymond, I would go as far as to say that some are actually 3% non-Neanderthal.

Chris Williams
552 Posted 11/09/2022 at 19:04:21

There could be a TV programme in that.

John McFarlane Snr
553 Posted 11/09/2022 at 19:16:35
Hi Danny [544],

I had to read your response twice, before I realised that you appear to have backed my view. At first , I wondered why you introduced 'the dark side' and Alan Hansen into the 'conversation', when the exchange that Dave and I were engaged in was about two of the city's 'finest boxers'.

Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but I now believe that you were in fact supporting us, and you see little harm in our straying from the 'Everton only' line, I'm sure that we can discuss it at the get-together if the Premier League and God permit it.

Christy Ring
554 Posted 11/09/2022 at 19:34:30
Danny #544,

You say the best British centre-back you saw was Hansen. In my opinion, the British-born player beside him, who played for Ireland, Mark Lawrenson, was a class above him.

James Hughes
555 Posted 11/09/2022 at 19:38:25
Bill & Jerome re the state pension.

I understand your frustration but young people now have to contribute for 35 years to qualify for a state pension. Right now, your 20 years wouldn't get you a farthing.

If you left for greener pastures, fair play to you and I hope you are living your best life but I am guessing you stopped paying any National Insurance nearly 40 years ago.

I am not defending the process – just saying that you get something, however small. Anyone following your path now will get nowt. And yes, it stinks either way.

Dale Rose
556 Posted 11/09/2022 at 19:55:01
Alan 487.
Well said mate, no truer words.
Tony Dunn
557 Posted 11/09/2022 at 20:23:11
Bobby Mallon @543

Yes, it does matter not being in the EU.

I’m lucky enough through a lifetime’s hard work to own an apartment in Spain, homeless in England, thanks to Farage and his dickhead campaign to live here now.

I‘ve got to go through a load of red tape for residency, ie, a home, a place to live.

Michael Kenrick
558 Posted 11/09/2022 at 20:38:44
Jesus Chirst, I can tolerate just about anything being discussed on this thread...

Except talking up fucking Liverpool players.

What the hell is the matter with you people!!!

Tony Dunn
559 Posted 11/09/2022 at 20:44:43
Bobby Mallon,

I think you may be wrong.

Brent Stephens
560 Posted 11/09/2022 at 20:50:14
Michael, they only do it to wind you up. They've been taking bets on how long it would take for you to step in. Horrible people.

I collect my winnings tomorrow.

Danny O’Neill
561 Posted 11/09/2022 at 20:51:22
Totally John Senior.

Christy, good shout although it was great seeing Graeme Sharp get the wrong side of him to smash that shot fro Peter Reid's direct pass into the Anfield Road goal.

Michael. I'll take my yellow card!!!

Bill Gall
562 Posted 11/09/2022 at 21:03:56
James # 555

According to the UK department of pensions the rules are you usually need at least 10yrs on your national insurance record to get any state pension / you need 35 qualifying years to get a full new state pension,you will get a proportion of the new state pension if you have between10 and 35 qualifying years.

The argument is, if you live in any of the Commonwealth Countries you do not receive any of the increases or a proportion that other expats receive by retiring in America or Europe and other countries.

It is what I say about treating their seniors differently.

Apparently you are supposed to be informed of this before you leave the country in an interview with a government official but no one said anything about it

Both my wife and myself have both worked since coming here and as the pension we receive helps but it is not essential, as we planned our retirement not knowing we were getting anything but there are a lot of expats in the Commonwealth countries that rely on it and any increases help.

My example is the pension I will get this year with the exchange rate is less than I got 15yrs ago. As I said it does not matter who is in power the opposition always say when we get in it will be changed.

Bernie Quinn
563 Posted 11/09/2022 at 21:56:46
John at 533 - I too have had my hand slapped for my posts - even though I had kept to "The Everton Line". In my case I was told that Dave Hickson and the 1950s were ancient history and boring. And then I read these hundreds of posts - some very insulting and bitter. and I wonder why some of us are picked on ?
Michael Williams
564 Posted 11/09/2022 at 22:00:35
My best to all those here who mourn the loss of your Queen.
Kieran Kinsella
565 Posted 11/09/2022 at 22:03:30

I think (just speculating without insider knowledge) that if there's a particular Everton topic in hand, they delete non-relevant posts; otherwise, a lot of threads tend to go on for about 400 or 500 posts with many having nothing to do with the topic.

If a casual reader happens upon the website, he might stop reading if say a discussion about an Under-23 match turns into a debate on vaccinations. This thread being non-Everton specific lends itself more easily to broader topics.

Bernie Quinn
566 Posted 11/09/2022 at 22:17:37
Kieran at 565,

I acknowledge your post – but read post at 558. If this is an open thread, isn't this censorship?

Tony Abrahams
567 Posted 11/09/2022 at 22:18:27
When Boris Johnson was the Secretary of State for foreign and commonwealth affairs, he allegedly told his Italian counterpart, that once Britain left the EU, the Italians would sell less Prosecco.

"I know," said the Italian, "but only in one country, but don't you realize that you're going to sell less fish n chips, in 27 countries?"

And still they voted him into power. 😩

David West
568 Posted 11/09/2022 at 22:47:33
Kieran, isn't that the beauty of fan-led media? That it's not led by a media agenda or some billionaire tycoon wanting to manipulate public and political opinions to their own advantage.

You only have to read the tone of the Daily Mail's coverage to see how they are skewing the coverage against Prince Harry. Because it suits them to have a bad guy – don't focus on the nonce, focus on the only one of the Royal Family who actually lives a semblance of a normal life.

This is why fan-lad media is a breath of fresh air. Not social media where people are craving attention. Genuine discussion!

On this thread the conversation started about football but splintered into so many conversations from the Royals to World War 2, George Orwell, fishing quotes, Brexit, communism, free speech, Irish history, state pensions and The Commonwealth.

People leading the conversation – not being led. It's given me faith in this country that, yes, we bicker, rarely agree, but we generally end up in the middle. As one poster put it, the left and right need each other or we would end up lurching too far either way.

Lyndon and the ToffeeWeb team should be proud of what they have created; I doubt they ever thought they would oversee a thread like this one!

Bobby Mallon
569 Posted 11/09/2022 at 22:54:21
Tony Dunn 557, I don't get your reply.

Do you live in Spain in an apartment? But now you want to come back to England to live?

Neil Copeland
570 Posted 11/09/2022 at 23:04:53
David #568, well said, TW is breath of fresh air, even when it gets a bit heavy at times. As you say, a credit to Michael and Lyndon.

Bernie #566, more moderation than censorship I would say. I have had the odd post removed too. As Kieran says, it's done to keep things on topic and help prevent threads going off at a complete tangent. Post #558 is a bit tongue-in-cheek I would say and Michael taking the bait or sort of!

Bill Watson
571 Posted 11/09/2022 at 23:32:20

East German football club success was very much determined by which state organ gave a club support. For an outsider, like me, it could be a little difficult to understand just how this worked.

The well known Berlin side (at least to us) was Dynamo Berlin but out and about in East Berlin I saw lots of graffiti for FC Union but hardly any for Dynamo. I asked a German friend about this and he said that was because Dynamo was the Stasi side but the ordinary people supported FC Union.

I asked who sponsored Union and he said it came via the SED, the Socialist Unity Party. The SED was the political umbrella of the GDR Communist Party i.e. the GDR Government. Go figure! I couldn't apart from thinking there must have been rivalries at play like the pre war SA and SS. (Stasi men in government buildings were dead easy to spot. They all wore what we'd call Burton suits) lol

Many posters have asked for examples of Brexit benefits and no one has come forward with any. That's because there aren't any.

As many have already said, on here, Brexit was won by lies and one of the biggest was immigration. When the Tories say they want to deal with immigration, they really mean non white immigration. Look at the double standards between those trying to cross in small boats and those from the Ukraine. The difference? The Ukrainians are 'like us'.

Leaving the EU was never going to solve the cross channel issue as the Calais agreements are totally independent of the EU. Johnson and Farage peddled the racist immigration card and people bought it. The unintended consequence was the loss of ten of thousands of EU workers.

Jerome Shields
572 Posted 11/09/2022 at 23:37:48
James #555,

I do live in the UK, but have a friend who lives in Canada. I did investigate for him, and came across ministers who were involved in Pension Administration admit that this was a clear injustice, but any sitting government fought any legal challenge to the highest courts and won.

I find it very frustrating this weekend that there is no football to discuss. At least we are having a revealing get-to-know session on this thread. It says something of the excellent character of contributors that we can have a meaningful discussion on such topic.

Even Dev who wanted Ireland to return to a Quiet Man setting is mentioned. He was cute avoiding execution and sending Collins to London, but he made sure that the Civil Service stuck to the British model of patronage, which has not been reformed to the same extent since, unlike the British Model. I have always felt that the Irish people are such Europeans because they feel they need an overseer of their own government.

David Currie
573 Posted 11/09/2022 at 00:09:38
Danny 544 and Christy 554,

The best British centre-back I saw live was Paul McGrath, absolutely different class. He was that good he could have played for Brasil, Italy, Germany or Argentina back in the day. Was also very comfortable playing centre-midfield. I coached with a player who played with him at United and he rated him better than Bryan Robson.

Would have loved Colin Harvey to have signed him back in 1989 when I think he left for Villa.

Kieran Kinsella
574 Posted 12/09/2022 at 00:43:48
Bill Watson,

I have to ask, how did you end up in East Germany? Wasn't it difficult getting beyond the iron curtain?

In my late teens, I first went to Eastern Europe right after communism ended which was very weird. In Budapest, I was shocked to see skinheads in Nazi outfits casually handing out literature in the main train station.

I had my first run-in with scary organized criminals, had to pay money to not be harassed by corrupt Polish policemen, was turned away at the Romanian border despite having a visa as my hosts were still nervous about hosting a westerner, and saw the smoldering remains of some buildings in Croatia after the Yugoslav Air Force had done their worst.

I can't imagine the culture shock of going there a few years earlier. I assume you assumed your hotel was bugged. The Stasi were the best in the world at surveillance back then.

Don Alexander
577 Posted 12/09/2022 at 01:12:59
Bill (#571),

I have farmer relatives in Scotland who are, like everyone else in farming, unable to recruit anywhere near enough foreign staff to reap their crops. Europeans did it for years, efficiently, but none are now able to come in.

Instead, we have a massively enlarged need for foreign non-European people to do what we need to be done to maintain what we were long used to in the EU. Most of these people come from Asia, fact.

Immigration across the board was (and remains) anathema to many Brexit voters, focussed as they were on Europe and not the wider world.

I have Brexit friends who are now appalled by the result of what they voted for. If European immigrants were anathema to them, guess what most of them think of the growing number of Asian immigrants replacing them.

If it wasn't so sad, it'd be laughable.

Ed Prytherch
578 Posted 12/09/2022 at 03:32:19

One thing that you gained by Brexit was being able to roll out the Covid vaccine months before the EU countries. That must have saved many lives in the UK.

Ed Prytherch
579 Posted 12/09/2022 at 03:32:19
Regarding overseas pensions, I am surprised that Brits moving to Commonwealth countries are treated so badly as my experience as a Brit retired in the USA is the exact opposite.

I moved to the USA in the '80s and I was allowed to make payments into UK social security after I left in order to qualify for a full pension. Additionally there is a tax treaty between Britain and the US which prevents the IRS from taxing my British pension.

I'm certainly glad that I never took US Citizenship even though I love living in the USA and I will never leave.

Kieran Kinsella
580 Posted 12/09/2022 at 03:47:00

How did that work out?

I'm a permanent resident here myself but, once in a while, I get a letter from blighty telling me if I pay x amount a year I'll get a UK pension. My green card expires next year so I'm weighing $600 to renew it versus $800 to become a Yank.

Alan J Thompson
581 Posted 12/09/2022 at 06:06:25
Michael Kenrick (#558);

I think you are over reacting a touch there, Michael.

When I read that some thought Hansen as the best ball-playing defender they'd seen my first thought was if that was with or without trousers. If you know your breeches, sorry, beaches.

Danny O’Neill
582 Posted 12/09/2022 at 06:22:02
Good shout on McGrath, David Currie. He was that good he could play without training and literally pissed by all accounts. Great player.

This has been a great thread. My grand plan, if I can pull it off, will be to retire early and split my time between the UK, the US and Germany. Fingers crossed.

I'm still not seeing any significant change in life that some mention. Maybe that's just me. I agree on the immigration thing. But that was a political red herring.

To repeat myself, the UK has always been built on immigration as have countries like the USA, Australia and New Zealand. Long may it continue. And it will.

I saw a lady on the news this morning paying tribute to Her Majesty and her gratitude for the opportunity to live in the UK. She was from Ukraine. Okay, circumstance, but the country is not the closed shop some seem to think it is.

I didn't look it up, Bill (will do later) but wasn't one of the Soviet teams (possibly Spartak Moscow??) effectively their Army team and won everything most years?

I went to Prague not long after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Fascinating and what I imagined was a throwback to the 1950s. I've re-visited twice since. In some ways stark in how much it has changed. In another way, quite sad seeing it overtaken by "tat" stalls on the bridges and overcrowded with tourists and stag parties.

Alan J Thompson
583 Posted 12/09/2022 at 06:23:46
On the point about British state pensions in Commonwealth countries. It makes little difference in Australia as the Australian pension is reduced $ for $ by the British pension.

Some years ago, I took it up with Centrelink (Australian Dole) and walked out leaving one of their clerks arguing with one of their Financial Advisors about the rate of deduction, despite having shown them how much I received from both.

Colin Glassar
584 Posted 12/09/2022 at 06:49:37
Returning to football, I've just realised the Adama Traore we've been constantly linked with this summer isn't the steroid-filled, oiled-up headless chicken who played for Wolves but a Hungarian-based, free-scoring player from Mali.

Apologies to Mr Traore. Let's get him in January!

Danny O’Neill
585 Posted 12/09/2022 at 07:18:54
Not convinced by him, Colin, He doesn't have the build of a footballer for me. He could possibly have been a decent Rugby player.

Even at Wolves, he strikes me as more of an impact player coming off the bench.

Maybe that's just me.

Lynn Maher
586 Posted 12/09/2022 at 07:49:36
I am now even more confused. Apparently there are four Adama Traores!

French side Metz actually had two of them on their books for a while.

Colin Glassar
587 Posted 12/09/2022 at 07:59:20
The Adama Traore who plays for Ferencvaros in Hungary, Danny, does look like a footballer. Mad that, Lynn.
Danny O’Neill
588 Posted 12/09/2022 at 08:16:18
I think I'm confused now, Colin!!

Watching the BBC Breakfast news this morning (I know I shouldn't!!!), but relevant to this thread and interesting watching the reflections on yesterday.

Even those who don't agree with Monarchy, it has been telling that the Queen overcame politics. Admired and respected by a nation that is craving independence from Westminster, even though I imagine there remains a sizeable loyalist minority?

Maybe it was the woman herself, but give me that over most of the politicians I've experienced in my lifetime.

Jerome Shields
589 Posted 12/09/2022 at 08:36:36
'Non-EU immigration increased from 2013 to 2020, fell during the pandemic, and bounced back in 2021. A 2021 increase in visas granted does not result from the post-Brexit immigration system alone; other factors, such as the decision to open a route for British National Overseas status holders, play an important role. 29 July 2022'.

The above does not include transit visa holders, who are supposed to be working offshore, beyond the 12-mile limit in part of their working week. They are mostly immigrants from Ghana, Sri Lanka, The Philippines and India. These people are known as Britain's modern slaves and the British Government refuses to close this loophole, though lobbied continually by Modern Day Slavery organisations.

So the current British Government policies in practise is actively encouraging immigration at least the same rate as before Brexit and illegal labour practises, while making hard-line token gestures as being hard on immigration.

The so-called problems of EU government were caused by a British Benefit system that was not levelled up with your benefits in other EU countries, which was also exasperated by not being in the same currency.

EU workers in the UK could legally have his or her family receive benefits in their home country. This was particularly a bonanza for Eastern European countries where these benefits had greater value. This meant that an Eastern European could work for less than a British Citizen and still actually get more money when benefits were taken into account. When there was a recent shortage of lorry drivers 4, 000 visas were made available to Eastern Europeans. Only 400 visas were issued. . . Why? Because they did not qualify for benefits and were not prepared to work for the previous wages they were on.

Actually Ireland did level up benefits and fine-tuned with subsequent changes which give Irish Citizens equal parity in real terms.

Similarly when borders opened up under the single market, there was no leveling up by UK firms of prices with their EU operations. They found themselves under competition in their home market from tariff-free imports from their EU subsidiaries.

Another balls-up was the Euro, when they completely mismanaged the European Exchange Mechanism. Remember Chancellor Lamont outside the Treasury, with Cameron in the background, announcing having increased the interest rate to15% that he would do whatever it takes to support the pound. An absolute currency speculator's dream. The next morning, millions were made by speculators and Britain crashed out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism.

By the way, the current benefit system was initially funded by the North Sea bonanza in the '80s, as Thatcher tried to prop up her disastrous economic strategy, by moving more people onto benefits, as Britain changed from an industrial to a service economy, largely due to a large scale industrial wipeout. Britain proportionally has the biggest service sector in Europe, so increasing trade is based on a country with the smallest proportion of an industrial base in the whole economy when compared to other European Countries. On top of that is a complete lack of preparation for Brexit, which is not new as the above shows in relation to Britain engagement with Europe.

Lynn Maher
590 Posted 12/09/2022 at 09:13:59
Right, here goes...

I think we are linked with Malian, Adama Malouda Traore - Ferencvaros

There is also Adama Traore - Western Sydney Wanderers
Adama Noss Traore - Hull City
Adama Traore - Wolves
Adama Ardile Traore - Waasland-Beveren

I am now going for a lie down!

Kevin Molloy
591 Posted 12/09/2022 at 09:32:54
I always used to buy into the idea of the EU, all part of a wider thing, all going well share and share alike. None of it sounded too bad. I think though that was because it never really impacted on my life significantly.

Now, after the Pandemic, and the behaviour of people during the referendum, I think we were mad to support. it. What country in their right mind gives up the ability to say who can come in and who can't. The lack of democratic accountability is startling.

Remember when Ireland voted 'non', the Commission said 'Yeah. Try again, Dublin' and that was that...

I see it now as a giant cartel set up not to benefit the ordinary citizens of Europe but big business and globalists. People who want to make lots of money, but who will melt way like snow in June when trouble comes. And it foists upon us the most mediocre daft-arses like Ursula von der Leyen to make the important decisions. Decisions which are taken in the naked self-interest of the cartels and politicians who are riding the gravy train.

Beyond the corruption though, these bastards would have had us signed up to vaccine mandates and a cashless society so fast, and then our ability to put the brakes on would have been knackered forever. They were a whisker away from pushing it through, before people started to wake up as to the true threat from the virus, and realised we didn't need a needle every four months to be 'safe'.

Any form of protest to the elites would have been nipped in the bud, no cash for you, no social media, no trip to the cinema or anywhere else (see Canada). We are still on that precipice, but at least we don't have Ursula calling the final shots.

Colin Glassar
592 Posted 12/09/2022 at 09:59:56
Will the real Adama Traore please stand up?
Eddie Dunn
593 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:06:26
Kevin- spot-on.
Barry McNally
594 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:16:23
🎵🎵 There's Only One Adama Traore
Danny O’Neill
595 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:26:13
Okay. Let's sign Adama Traore.

Well, one of them!!

Derek Knox
596 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:26:54
Colin @ 592, stole my line there, or rather you got there first mate. I, like most others assumed it was the Wolves (ex Middlesborough) who is built like the proverbial brick public convenience, and is as quick as a rat up a drainpipe, but has very little end product when in the final third.

I was taken aback when it said he has scored 12 in 12, and wondered if it was against a visually impaired team or goalkeeper. Thankfully Lynn, and some others have clarified the Adama Traore (aka Spartacus) situation. :-)

Alan McGuffog
597 Posted 12/09/2022 at 10:59:20
Could make a cheeky bid for his aul fella, Djime Traore... what d'you think?
Stephen Davies
598 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:01:48

We always had control of what EU Citizen entered our country. Unless you can show me otherwise, they would have had to pass through passport control, where they would have been checked via a Euro-wide police database. That access to the database no longer exists.

As for the Mandatory vaccine mandate, that's a lie and I wonder what your objective is to stating this. It was always down to individual countries to make that decision.

The Government's own White Paper on Brexit clearly stated Parliament is Sovereign and always has been.

Questions and answers on COVID-19 vaccination in the EU

Bill Watson
599 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:08:48
Kieran #574,

When I was in my 20s, back in the pre-internet 1970s, I was learning German and thought it would be a good idea to have a German penfriend who was learning English. I wrote to the West German embassy and, surprisingly, they said my best bet was to contact the East Germans.

I did and they sent me a list of people wanting to write to people in the UK. I was a bit dubious about the list, thinking it would be full of Party people but went ahead and chose someone. To my surprise, he wasn't and we're still friends today.

Prior to this, we'd visited East Berlin and Dresden and stayed in hotels which I assumed were bugged. You couldn't just turn up to East Germany but had to book a hotel before they'd issue a visa. After I started corresponding with Werner, he'd move in with his girlfriend and we'd stay in his flat. An old (to me) lady lived upstairs and I ended up carrying her coal scuttle up for her but I couldn't engage her in any sort of conversation.

Werner said she's asked who I was and he'd assured her she could safely talk to me and the next time she invited me into her flat. I asked her what it was like as a young woman when the Red Army advanced into Berlin in 1945. I'd read about it but to actually speak to someone who was there was amazing and that conversation will stay with me forever.

Applying for a visa was very complicated and took ages but it was worth the effort. Was it a culture shock? Yes, in some ways. Everything was the opposite to here. The essentials like housing, food and transport were dirt cheap and 'luxury' items like TVs and cars were very expensive and had a waiting list, in some cases, of years. Everyone seemed to have a job and there were no homeless on the streets.

Their health service was first class. My wife had to be rushed into the Berlin Women's Hospital and was there for 3 weeks. The facilities, care and staff were brilliant. At the height of the Cold War, they even retuned the ward TV to AFN (American Forces Network) just for her!

A woman my wife met in hospital invited us over to her home in a lovely village, in the mountains near Erfurt. Rudi, her husband, was a captain in the East German border army so that was interesting, not least for him having a couple from the UK staying in his house! lol.

Had some great laughs, too, even on the horrendous border.

Interesting times!!

Stephen Davies
600 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:14:03

Also continuing from my last reply, I forgot to add that, under EU Law, any EU Citizen who moves to another country within the EU could be deported if they could not support themselves after 3 months.

Kevin Molloy
601 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:27:31

No, we didn't. I am referring to freedom of movement. Whilst we were in the EU, we had to let EU citizens move freely around the country.

And I referred to EU leaders wanting to push through vaccine mandates but which they never got the opportunity to do fully cos people began to see the real level of threat from the virus and the opportunity was lost. But in the dark days of 2021 it was a real possibility. Not just in the EU but here.

I would suggest it is naive to contend that this cartel would allow individual countries to make up their own mind if they had managed to get this technology in place in time. Have you not been watching how the EU operates?

Danny O’Neill
602 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:37:23
The UK has always had stricter border controls by virtue of its Island status. As far as I'm aware, the only people treated equally as UK citizens on entry were those from the Republic of Ireland. Even now, we invite the EU to enter the same queue as ours. Something not replicated on the continent.

Pre-Brexit, when I travelled to Munich or Dusseldorf, I had to go through a different and more stringent customs / passport check due to our non-Schengen stance. It didn't really inconvenience me then just as it doesn't now.

However, once I hit the continent, just like any citizen of any EU member, I'm free to move as I please.

Example, once I land in Munich, I freely drive through Austria into northern Italy without check. When the German authorities put border checks on the main crossing point at Kufstein because of the immigration flood a few years ago, I simply went via the pass between Innsbruck and Kufstein. Not to avoid checks, just because it was unchecked and quicker.

When I visit the area I was stationed in, Heinsberg on the German-Dutch border, I can freely walk, run and cycle around the woods, cross the transparent border at will, sometimes not realising which country you are in.

Personally, it hasn't changed a lot. And I still love Europe. More so when I travel to watch Everton play there.

Kevin Molloy
603 Posted 12/09/2022 at 12:48:36

I should have clarified, when I refer to vaccine mandates, I meant vaccine passport mandates. I didn't mean to imply that everyone would be obligated to roll up their sleeve, but certainly they were looking at a future where they would be unable to participate in society if they didn't get their shot.

Christy Ring
604 Posted 12/09/2022 at 13:37:11
David Currie, agree completely, Paul McGrath was pure class, and with two bad knees never did any physical training between games. Jack Charlton played McGrath and Lawrenson in midfield, that's how versatile they were.

I remember McGrath against Baggio in the '94 World Cup in the USA. He couldn't move his left arm, frozen shoulder, but gave an exhibition against Baggio, even Baresi shook his hand after the game.

Paul McGrath's book is probably the saddest autobiography I ever read, abused and brought up in an orphanage.

Kieran Kinsella
605 Posted 12/09/2022 at 13:49:19

That's fascinating thanks for sharing. My interest in visiting the East came from an old fellow who like you had a pen pal in Yugoslavia. He visited also and had great stories although Yugoslavia wasn't as tightly controlled as the GDR.

Michael Kenrick
606 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:23:12
Uh oh... the republic is already making itself manifest:

"Our thoughts at this time remain with His Majesty King Charles III, our president, HRH The Prince of Wales, and the whole of the Royal Family."

Or perhaps he is President of the Premier League? I didn't think he liked football.

Brent Stephens
607 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:30:30
Michael, Wiki says "He became President of England's Football Association in May 2006"
Brian Murray
608 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:31:48
Danny O'Neill.

Small point I know but Reid actually laid it back to Gary Stevens who pinged it forward for that Exocet missile from Sharp in that derby.

Brian Murray
609 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:35:50
Shame the Chelsea v Liverpool game probably cancelled as I'm sure Potter would have gotten off to a flyer.
Steve Brown
610 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:45:18
It is perverse to complain about immigration into the UK when so many of our citizens have migrated abroad.

Approximately 5.5 million British live abroad, with 1.24 million of them living in the EU. I assume nobody thinks they should all return home, as we'd better start building more housing stock.

Immigration into the UK is also an outcome of our Empire. After World War II, every subject of the Empire was given the right of abode in Great Britain but few came. Those who migrated to Britain came here because we had gone there. Their relationship with Britain was founded on our colonisation of their countries.

Let's stop being so one-eyed about this.

Danny O’Neill
611 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:46:37
I stand corrected, Mr Murray!

I still think the best moment Peter Reid contributed was his pressing of the Oxford player in that cup tie that allegedly saved Howard Kendall. Many rightfully lay claim to Adrian Heath's anticipation, but it was Reid's pressing that forced the back pass to enable Heath to latch onto the mistake.

Brent Stephens
612 Posted 12/09/2022 at 14:46:57
Brian, unlike Klopp, I don't think we'll see Potter throw a wobbly.
Bill Watson
613 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:29:15
Kieran #605

For ordinary people, life in the GDR was surprisingly laid back. The main gripe was the difficulty in travelling to the West which, for most, was virtually impossible although it was possible to apply for, and be granted, a permanent exit visa to the West,

Loving this thread but just to digress to football for a bit. It now appears there are four Traores. This is Everton, don't forget, so we'd probably sign the one who couldn't hit a barn door (do barns actually have doors)? Maybe safer to sign all four!

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
614 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:39:59
So bang goes "there is only one Adama Traore" chant.
Brian Murray
615 Posted 12/09/2022 at 15:44:41

The "I am Spartacus applies" to all the Brians on this site also but only one talks any sense. When I come across him, I'll give you a nod.

Raymond Fox
616 Posted 12/09/2022 at 16:35:12
Steve 610, my point earlier in the thread was purely about numbers.

An average yearly increase of the UK population of 320,000 from the period 2011 to 2022. That's a city every 12 months, that's a ridiculous state of affairs. The increase has slowed down for the last couple of years to 200,000 but that is still far too high.

You're correct when you mention immigration from the Commonwealth being the biggest contributor to the total each year, it was always larger than the EU.

It's now becoming increasingly difficult to get from A to B on our inadequate road network and it will only get worse if we allow this already overcrowded island to become ever more crowded.

Don Alexander
617 Posted 12/09/2022 at 16:42:20
Bill (#613), four Traore's?

Even the Two Ronnies would struggle to make that work.

Ed Prytherch
618 Posted 13/09/2022 at 01:38:48

You can contact me to discuss the permanent resident/pension stuff.

Also, I was in the GDR for 3 weeks in 1965.

Kieran Kinsella
619 Posted 13/09/2022 at 02:35:58

There's a good German language documentary on Amazon with subtitles about the GDR. On balance, many people interviewed think it was better than now because of housing, health and jobs.

Danny O’Neill
620 Posted 13/09/2022 at 06:14:46
We had the same type of scenario in Cyprus as late as the 1990s, Bill, where you had to apply for a pass to get through the Black Knight checkpoint manned by Turkish Troops to go to Famagusta (or Gazimagusa), or you could pay a Cypriot pound on the day in the Capital.

On the DDR, it was interesting in the initial period and decade following reunification. A cult emerged know as "Ostalgia" a combination of German for East and nostalgia as people were missing their old simple way of life that they had long wanted shut of.

It goes to show that change takes time. Things don't get better overnight.

Jerome Shields
621 Posted 13/09/2022 at 09:59:14
Raymond #616,

Recently in London I found it difficult to walk on footpaths. The density of population has certainly increased a lot in areas outside the West End.

But the UK needs population growth so stopping immigration is more a political gesture than the only solution. lt's an easy fix which politicians can use to get into power.

Anti-immigration support is an underlining reserve that can be tapped into in most Western Countries for inscrutable political gain.

Michael Kenrick
622 Posted 13/09/2022 at 13:22:18
Danny @620,

Thanks for explaining 'Ostalgia'.

For some reason, I always thought it referred to an anguished longing for the past days of Jon Oster and the equally lamented manager we had at the time.

I shall try to recalibrate in the light of this important revelation.

Tony Everan
623 Posted 13/09/2022 at 13:44:43
Osteroporosis ?

Don, Bill, The Four Traores sound like a Motown group, would be good for a half-time sing song if they didn’t make the team.

Bill Watson
624 Posted 13/09/2022 at 21:45:37
Danny #620 and Kieran,

One of the problems with the DDR was it was stuck in a kind of ideological time warp. Some prices and rents were held at 1948 levels and, for example, there wasn't nearly enough rent revenue to maintain even the existing Berlin housing stock.

After reunification, many DDR qualifications weren't recognised by the BRD and, years later, many qualified Ossies were still being paid a lot less than their Wessie counterparts.

I remember standing in front of the Brandenburg Gate, in 1980, (for those that don't know, it was on the border) and my German friend said, "My world ends here but I want to see Paris and London before I'm 35".

He had a good job but had never been a Party member; in fact he'd done 12 months for 'anti-social activities' (involvement in a group smuggling denim jeans across the Berlin Wall).

In 1983, he applied for an exit visa and 12 months later, got a phone call to say he could go but it had to be the next day, (That was the well-known awkward side of the DDR.)

He made it to Paris and London with a few months to spare (he was 34) and a few days later was with me in the Goodison ticket office when Derek Mountfield walked in swinging the FA Cup!!

Incoming packages were checked for anti-social material and I had a few LPs returned for that reason. One I remember was Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' (which I later smuggled in under a towel on the back seat of the car)!

A few years later, I was doing a sort of refresher advanced 'A' level and Liz, the tutor, revealed she'd done a gap year working in the DDR Border Postal Service and it was her job to check banned LPs off a list. She said they used to get invited to all the best parties. When I asked why, she said they used to tape all the banned stuff before returning it to sender, lol!

Brent Stephens
625 Posted 13/09/2022 at 21:54:22
Coming back to the theme of this thread, it's being reported tonight (in the Grauniad) that:

"Dozens of Clarence House staff have been given notice of their redundancy as the offices of King Charles and the Queen Consort move to Buckingham Palace after the death of the Queen.

"Up to 100 employees at the King's former official residence, including some who have worked there for decades, received notification that they could lose their jobs just as they were working round the clock to smooth his elevation to the throne."

"One source said: 'Everybody is absolutely livid, including private secretaries and the senior team. All the staff have been working late every night since Thursday, to be met with this. People were visibly shaken by it.' "

A class act, in more sense than one.

Dale Self
626 Posted 13/09/2022 at 22:10:19
Nice punchline, Brent. I would have given him some credit for perhaps reducing the monarchy's weight on England's finances but the timing makes that a fool's perception.
Bill Watson
627 Posted 13/09/2022 at 22:21:32
I'll bet he hasn't binned the valet who, each morning, puts the toothpaste on his toothbrush!
Brent Stephens
628 Posted 13/09/2022 at 22:26:41
Bill, he might be part of the squeeze.
Ed Prytherch
629 Posted 13/09/2022 at 22:30:19
Bill, so that medal pinned to his jacket for being able to brush his teeth all by his self is a lie?
Danny O’Neill
630 Posted 13/09/2022 at 23:03:40
Michael, I like to please with useless facts. It was an actual thing though. If you wanted, you could buy old East German products online.

Bill, it still fascinates me. Around the early 2000s, I was on exercise in Germany and the unit we were partnering with was predominantly former East Germans ("Ossies").

I've said this earlier but by the end of an exercise and the customary night in the mess, they all went and got dressed in their old East German uniforms. They had previously been officers but having been transitioned to the unified German military post reunification, they had been demoted to Corporals and Sergeants.

Great night with them though. Very entertaining hosts!

Dave Cashen
631 Posted 14/09/2022 at 08:36:27
If people were kept on to do jobs which no longer exist at Clarence House, the people who are so outraged by the redundancies would no doubt be outraged by the Royal Family wasting taxpayers money. Efforts are being made to find alternative employment of a similar nature for the staff.

The timing may be cruel, but the decision to inform the staff as early possible was done on legal advice and is in line with the trade union guidelines.

Not many people will avoid redundancy throughout their working lives. It is a fact of life, although it comes as a very great shock to most. The general consensus is that it's better to be forewarned and therefore forearmed.

No royal was involved in the decision or the timing of the announcement.

Brent Stephens
633 Posted 14/09/2022 at 15:57:43
Bring in your new staff but get the timing right. The staff are devastated. Shocking timing.
Dale Self
634 Posted 14/09/2022 at 16:47:37
But Dave, isn't that how they do it? Of course someone else's desk moved the paper.

What I guess I'm waiting for is an explanation of the staff's reaction. If this were part of normal procedure, how did this get such a reaction?

Pete Neilson
635 Posted 14/09/2022 at 17:51:30
The savings King Charles is making are nothing to do with not wasting taxpayers money. There's minimal taxpayers money directly involved in this as Clarence House is funded by his private income from the Duchy of Cornwall.

The remainder, under 2%, comes from the Sovereign Grant. Let's not make him out to be doing this to save us from expense. It's his family's wealth he's preserving.

Danny (633) bit of a stretch to even see 'Charles' and 'thrifty' in the same sentence. A guy who flies his cars overseas, travels by helicopter or private jet on 70-mile trips and even ships his whole physical bedroom when staying overnight on visits.

Never mind having his pyjamas, bedsheets and shoelaces ironed every night (presumably when he's not wearing them or sleeping). His personal carbon footprint is multiple times that of the average person.

Like most of the enlightened elites today his motto should be “Do as I say, not as I do”.

Alex Bennett
636 Posted 14/09/2022 at 17:56:44
It may not be as awful as it seems. I'm sure working for royalty will give them a leg up in finding jobs in other roles that the average clerical employee wouldn't.

Also, if some have worked for decades, that could be 20, 30 or even 40-plus years, those redundancy packages will be sweet and some of them will be knocking close to retirement in any any case.

I'm sure many may well be redeployed or offered other civil servant roles, well I'd hope so.

Dave Cashen
637 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:37:02
King Charles has no say in what goes on at Clarence House anymore. It belongs to The Crown. In other words, The State.
The new king has no option.

Duty decrees that he now has to console himself by slumming it at Buckingham Palace. There would have been far more jobs lost if he decided to sack that idea.

The staff at Clarence House will be gutted but, if nobody lives there now, how can they stay? What would they do? They knew this day was coming. They'd have had to be stupid not to. She was 96, for fuck's sake!

Timing? I bet every single one of them would prefer to know now than to be slung out on their arses at Christmas. By all accounts, they liked working for Charles. Maybe he can find some of them a position at the house he now lives in.

I'm all for a demonstration of outrage, but any outrage here should be directed at the crown, or at least the existence of it, Not some silver spoon Royal who wouldn't even understand your point.

i"ve always been a fence sitter. I always preferred the Royle family to the Royal family., But I had no axe to grind with the Windsor crowd and I've been impressed with heart-on-the-sleeve emotion being shown by the Royalist. Fair play to them
if William and Kate had taken up the option to move to Clarence House their jobs may have been saved, but those two are doing very nicely in Windsor thank you very much - Good news for the staff in Windsor.

I get he republican view, but the very existence of a royal does generate jobs. The downside of one of them dying is very much in evidence at Clarence House

Brent Stephens
638 Posted 14/09/2022 at 19:45:43
"They knew this day was coming. They'd have had to be stupid not to. She was 96, for fuck's sake. Timing? I bet every single one of them would prefer to know now".

The reported shocked reaction of senior (senior!) staff suggests the absolute contrary – that they expected nothing at all of the timing of the announcement. That's what's shocking – the timing.

Dave Cashen
639 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:31:36
I don't think a single member of the Clarence House staff would have been astounded by The Queen's passing. Or that any of them will be remotely surprised that their boss was moving on to Buckingham Palace. Even the staunchest of republicans could have predicted that much.

Timing? They have been told they will be given 3 months notice. That gives them from now till Christmas to find something else.

I've been made redundant twice and, on both occasions, I was told not to come back next week as I left on Friday afternoon.

There is no good timing.

Brent Stephens
640 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:42:39
"I don't think a single member of the Clarence House staff would have been astounded by The Queen's passing."

Irrelevant to the point. A red herring. The timing of the announcement of their possible redundancy was crass. Their reported reaction says so.

You miss the point. It's not the timing of the redundancy period. It's the timing of the announcement.

Dave Cashen
641 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:52:14
It's not me who missed the point, Brent.

It happened to me when my kids were very young. There is no good time to tell people they are redundant.

Those who allow newspapers to do their thinking for them will forever be outraged by something.

Dale Self
642 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:56:02
Enough of the newspapers do someone's thinking talk. Saying that to another Scouser. Sheeesh!
Brent Stephens
643 Posted 14/09/2022 at 20:58:17

I sympathise with your past experience. I agree, there is no good time to inform staff of their proposed redundancy - but there is a worse time and a not-so-worse time. This feels like the worst time.

It's reported that one source said: "Everybody is absolutely livid, including private secretaries and the senior team. All the staff have been working late every night since Thursday, to be met with this. People were visibly shaken by it."

Dave Cashen
644 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:07:21
Okay, Brent.

Not worth falling out over. We'll agree to disagree.

The footy's back this weekend and we can all get back to talking shite about something we love.

Brent Stephens
645 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:09:35
Yes, Dave. We need the game this weekend, mate. And 3 points.
Christine Foster
646 Posted 14/09/2022 at 21:25:00
In my life, I think I have been made redundant 5 times, twice on Christmas Eve, another couple of times because I had done the job I was brought in for and the companies thought they no longer needed me, and lastly when I stood beside a staff member who had been bullied and threatened.

One of the best couple of pieces of advice I ever had were from a recruitment agent who got a great job for me:

1. Always negotiate your leaving terms in your contract before you start. This is the best time when the company wants you, not when they don't!

2. Never forget you are for rent. A company will want you until they no longer need you. Loyalty only exists on one side of the road.

You may think it's cynical but I found in my long career that both held to be true, oh one other maxin, the more you earn, the less chance of security.

Loyalty, I wonder now if such ever existed other than in those who demanded it?

Danny O’Neill
647 Posted 16/09/2022 at 18:28:18
To date, I've been fortunate not to have been made redundant. I hope it doesn't happen to me, but then the grand plan is to retire early and have a season ticket.

I don't wish to belittle the sentiment. I come from a broken home and as I've said a few times, joined the Army with no fixed abode. I had to use my Uncle's address.

Now in the commercial space, I appreciate the benefit of working in the public sector and the security and benefits that it offered even though the pay is way lower than what is available outside the wire in the private sector, which is more volatile and unpredictable.

And although I say it offered security, there were also a lot of sacrifices to normal life. Like spending 6 months + on numerous occasions in some of the world's shitholes on behalf of Her Majesty's Government of the day. Without question, without the ability to question.

Rough with the smooth. I've just done a rough calculation and figured out that I spent at least 8 years of my only son's formative first 18 years away from home. On public servant pay. No complaints, I can just compare the pluses and negatives of both sides of the fence.

648 Posted 16/09/2022 at 19:02:48
Dave @ 637.

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that King Charles was The Crown?

In any event, The Crown and The State are two entirely separate entities, not one and the same at all.

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