Are Everton players really that bad?

Former Spain midfielder Cesc Febregas, who is now Como manager, has offered English free agent Dele Alli, 28, the chance to train with his side from January as the midfielder bids to revive his career.

Oh well!

This weekend alone proved we have a top-class goalkeeper and a set of defenders who are capable of shutting out a Top 6 side when fully focussed and the defensive tactics are correct.

I truly believe the team as individuals are still motivated but all too regularly put in a system that doesn't play to their strengths. As you rightly point out, Calvert-Lewin scored regularly under Carlo Ancelotti, when his sole purpose was to get himself into the box.

I appreciate that Calvert-Lewin does much of the donkey work upfront trying to create space for others or scraps for himself but, with Broja now fit, surely this is a chance to add a new dynamic upfront and give Calvert-Lewin the chance to get into more scoring positions (at home at least).

The inability of our players to string passes together is my biggest headscratcher. Watching other teams of supposedly inferior quality out-pass us is so frustrating and inexcusable.

I have no idea whether it is the pressure on our players to perform or bad coaching or a collection of reasons but I can't believe a player can reach Premier League level and be that bad at passing.

Dyche will always frustrate me because, as is the case with the players, the potential and ability are there but his lack of willingness to adapt from his safety default is holding him and the players back.

Look at the 6 teams above us in the Premier League – Palace, West Ham, Man United, Newscastle, Brentford, and then Tottenham in 10th... which of those managers would rather have our squad?

I'd say none.

I get it, Dyche might not be getting the most out of this team… but there is also a very good chance that he is, looking at the teams above us and how superior their squads really are. Brentford have outbid us recently, as have Ipswich, and players have chosen Forest over us on loan.

You say perhaps Mykolenko isn't shit, but which of those teams above us does he get into? Same for Ashley Young? I think they are performing at their full potential, and they simply don't start in any other Premier League team. Same for Doucoure, McNeil, Harrison, maybe even Calvert-Lewin, Gana...

And as for comparing Calvert-Lewin to Solanke? That's funny.

Under a different regime those same players, plus this season's add-ons, could do 8th as a one-off. Get 2 fullbacks and another centre-half who are in their mid-20s, not 30s and that could be 6th on a good day.

8th to 3rd in strictly number terms is an arithmetical progression.

8th to 3rd in skill and money terms is a geometric progression; the higher you go, the harder it is.

We're not as bad as we seem.

As the theme from 'Turtles Progress' has it – "It's tough at the top, But it's tougher at the bottom – and downright boring in between!"

We should easily be on 25 points at least with a more attacking and tactical manager. But Dyche will keep us up so everything is fine.

An excellent question to which I would answer No, they are not – but for different reasons. Imo, we have round pegs in square holes.

You mention Iwobi. Compare him to Harrison or even Lindstrom and it is night and day.

Similarly compare Digne to Mykolenko, the list goes on.

Instead of improving the quality of the squad, we have diminished it over the years.

Many years ago, when I played at a decent level, a player who I played with previously was now a manager and asked me how to improve his team and my answer was simple: “Better players”

Now a good coach and a system of playing will affect players but good players stand out in any system but you have to have synergy and through bad recruitment we do not have synergy nor quality in certain positions.

Brighton are, correctly, held up as the bar to aim at but Dyche achieved the same amount of points as Brighton last season; something his critics seem to forget. Though admittedly this season has seen a regression.

Glad to see Iwobi, a much-maligned player on these pages, getting some recognition. Ironic that him and Robinson have been the best players in Silva's high-flying Fulham.

I think Santa will be checking that claim twice.

Solanke – 34 Premier League goals in around 150 appearances. 1 season in double figures.

Calvert-Lewin – 56 Premier League goals in around 230 appearances. 2 seasons in double figures.

Since I came across ToffeeWeb, the first thing I do when I see an article penned by your good self is put the kettle on and settle down to read it with a large mug of tea and a couple of slices of toast. Unfortunately and uncharacteristically, you seemed lack your usual attention to detail with this piece. I feel you have left out as much as you put in.

I don't think you will get any arguments (not even from Pickford's biggest critics) that he is a top-class shot-stopper, but I think you can expect a lot of people to come on and point out his switch-offs. His inability to command his box and see danger before it arrives. I'm a massive fan, but there is no denying there are flaws to his game.

My mate sitting next to me at Old Trafford turned and said "Fuck me, Tarks looks about 90". So it was no surprise when I got back and heard a commentator on Sky had said exactly the same thing.

He's still brilliant in the air, still a great blocker, and still a menace in the opposition half, but he's creaking, he's switching off. He clearly fears pace and, although he has shown signs of returning to form, it's taken a third of the season for him to get the old engine fired up.

When people talk about 'second season syndrome', they are usually talking about a player whose strengths have been recognised after an impressive debut season. I think that is where Branthwaite is at the moment.

Class will always win out and he has quality in all the areas you highlight. He will be a top player, but opposing teams react differently when he is in possession to when any of our other defenders have it. They don't drop and expect the ball to be launched over their heads.

They know "This fella is going to play it" and you can see the press kick in. Branthwaite will overcome this and become top-class, but he is still learning his trade against world-class players.

I don't doubt Idrissa has stats comparable to other top midfield men, but he often plays in a two and all too often can't cover the ground expected of him. Doucouré can cover the ground, but often looks like that is his only asset. I suspect his ability to spring the odd surprise with a goal is the only reason that keeps him in the team. Unfortunately any team he plays for will struggle to gain and keep possession.

Calvert-Lewin is a fabulous footballer. Anybody who has played the game will know how difficult it is to control those ridiculous punts, especially with two grocks up your arse trying with all their might to stop you doing it. But he has never been a natural striker. There does seem to be an element of our fan base that seem to almost enjoy exaggerating chances he has. He only has to touch the ball in the opposition half and they're up screaming "Look he's missed a-fucking-nother one one-on-one!"

That said, he is far too deliberate to fool your average goalie when given time to think. We've played without a striker for years.

If we want to pick out individual qualities of our players, we will surely find talent, but they are all flawed in some way and their weaknesses often over-shadow their talent.

Thanks for putting this up, Lyndon. Great topic and I'll be back later today, big mug of tea in hand, expecting to see some very interesting responses.

The 3 points against Bournemouth, the 2 points against Brentford. Should have got more from Southampton, Leicester and West Ham away.

Home games against Newcastle and Fulham only 2 points. So yeah we should be on 25 points at least. This is what Dyche has done to you, mate. He's lowed your expectations.

Sounds a lovely dream, maybe TFG can get us closer.

The title is telling, but now we are beginning to keep a few clean sheets, it's obvious how much the team missed Jarrad Branthwaithe, even though the kid has been nowhere near his best since he returned.

I don't feel sorry for any footballer but I look at Lindstrom and I wonder what he would be like playing inside? I look at Ndiaye constantly picking the ball up too far away from the opponent's goal, and I look at Calvert-Lewin being isolated.

The most important position on a football pitch is definitely your “starting position” and, unless we are playing with an incredibly deep low block, Everton's just doesn't feel right.

So you don't think this squad was capable of getting more points so far this season, with the fixtures we've had?

They're not Brazil 1970 but they're better than relegation. We're staying up, by the skin of our teeth, despite Dyche, not because of him.

We'll miss Calvert-Lewin when he's gone.

Some games, I sit there and think these players are being held back by a rigid formation and set of instructions and look like they daren't try anything for fear of what'll happen to them.

Other games, I see a fair number of them making so many unenforced errors that I find it hard to believe they're playing in the Premier League.

I really don't know which is right, or whether it's a mixture of both.

I do think that we should be at the very least 6 points better off and possibly 8 due to a mixture of cock-ups of immense magnitude and general fuckwittery.

Amazingly we've lost fewer games than Spurs and Brentford.

What I really want and wish for is the time when we walk out onto that pitch and the desire to win outweighs the fear of losing.

Clearly there has long been an issue at Everton with good players (and managers) chronically underperforming and then flourishing when they have left the club, Iwobi and Gordon being just the two latest examples.

In my opinion, there is a huge psychological flaw in the club, an intense sense of frustration allied to an inferiority complex which gets worse and worse with every year that Liverpool FC pull away with yet more success.

When this powerful cocktail of emotions ignites positively, it can massively support the players on the pitch. But, when things get tricky, as they so often do, it creates such a mood of inexpressible aggression and rage that permeates everything.

So much of football is played in the head – look at how Man City have collapsed so rapidly – and I think Everton's headspace has been screwed up for decades. This is one of the main reasons we are trapped in this cycle of hopelessness.

The cure? Perhaps the new stadium… but more likely a miraculous period of even moderate success – something to break the spell, this jinx we have on us.

We need luck and an inspirational new manager. Until then...

The inability to hold onto the ball like it was a hot potato, the very poor passing long and short, the lack of movement, and some of the misses have been comical… but not very funny when you are up off your seat cheering a goal that has, unbelievably, gone over the bar.

Can't any of these players think for their bleedin' selves? Football is a very simple game to play, starting with finding a player with a pass who is wearing the same colour shirt as yourself!

I think 25+ points after 15 games is bordering on Champions League form which is clearly an unlikely expectation for us currently.

I watch our opposition in relegation in a semi-quantitative manner and believe that we are a mid-table team in terms of squad quality in comparison.

I agree with your points about Branthwaite, Lindstrøm, Ndaiye and Calvert-Lewin. I just wonder if we had a different manager with a different philosophy, say Thomas Frank, would these players look a whole lot better?

Sean Dyche seems to want to concentrate on the defensive side rather than the attacking side, just take his approach to how he wants his wingers to play.

He has Harrison and Lindstrom as auxiliary full-backs rather than attacking wingers, and even when they have a chance to attack, there is no full-back to try and overlap and take players away. Ndiaye is being double-marked as most opponents realize that, other than dead-ball situations, he is their main threat.

Maybe not 25 points but enough to be safe already.

We've a couple of decent players, but the vast majority are unable to change a game. We are a team that can spoil, and the value of that is limited – we just happen to have a Top 30 wage bill for the privilege.

Striker, right-wing, centre-midfield, full-backs are all areas to be addressed.

It's only a matter of time before kids get 'Own Goal' on the back of their shirts, such are we short of quality.

Conversely, there have been times his tactics have resulted in ill-suited players performing badly in roles or positions at his insistence. So we clearly have a mismatch between the players' ability to deliver what is asked.

Jointly to blame or culpability by players and manager for poor performances? Is Dyche getting the best out of them? Absolutely not. As I said on another thread, he is setting his team out not to lose, rather than gamble.

Saying that, we have too many passengers who are the manager's favourites. Take Calvert-Lewin, for instance: he has no fire in his belly imo, that early break we had by Doucouré against Arsenal was a case in point. Any striker worth his salt would be busting a gut to get into the box but he was all but jogging forward, yards behind the play.

Is that good?

For a lot of players, it's a natural talent they have; for others, they have potential and, with a lot of coaching, they will make the grade. Along with commitment, dedication and most importantly, the right coaching, for me, this is where we've been let down over the past few years. Imagine If players said to each other, “Forget what the manager and coaches have told us to do, let's do it our own way”.

Players are held back from doing what they want to do because they are told to – not because they're rubbish or afraid to do something different to what the manager wants.

Why don't our full-backs overlap? Because they are told not to.

Why does it always seem like Calvert-Lewin plays wide, looking for balls down the channel, instead of staying in the middle? Because he's told to.

Why does Pickford launch long balls 90% of the time? Because he's told to.

As Dave says @18, football is a simple game. Finding a team mate with a simple pass should be, well, simple.

I also wonder if communication is a flaw in some players? How many times do you see a player running with the ball with an opponent right behind him and then nick the ball off him? Do team mates not shout “Man on”? When I played in goal, albeit only amateur level, I sometimes felt physically sick with constant bawling at team mates.

I could go on, and probably most of you disagree with me, but as I said at the beginning of this post, professional footballers, and certainly not Premier League players, are far from rubbish!!

I think lower mid-table is where this squad belongs in an average season. Compared with many teams around us, we lack players with pace and creativity. With each downward twist of the financial spiral, we have reduced the quality of our attacking players.

So, for example, Jack Harrison offers less threat than Andros Townsend; as yet the distrait Jesper Lindstrøm is less effective than the mercurial Demarai Gray; the exciting Iliman Ndiaye is less effective than Richarlison; the defensively solid Vitaliy Mykolenko gives us less in attack than Lucas Digne; and so on.

If our financial situation had not been so dire, Dyche would have kept hold of Alex Iwobi, one of our few effective ball carriers in recent seasons and one of the key players in the 5-1 win at Brighton in May 2023.

Our problem and Dyche's is that, when we throw players forward, we fail to capitalise fully on attacking options and leave ourselves vulnerable to the counter-attack. So at Chelsea last season, we started brightly, pressed high, failed to score and subsequently fell apart in a 6-0 defeat.

At home to Brighton in the first game of the season we started brightly, failed to score and were cut open in a 3-0 loss.

At home to Bournemouth, we took a 2-0 lead, chased after a third goal, failed to get it, and capitulated in eight minutes. At 2-1 in that game, we still had players chasing forward looking for a third goal and ridiculously were caught on the counter.

It is those sort of experiences coupled with our league position which have reinforced Dyche's inclination to adopt a low-risk approach in the last couple of months. If he needed a reminder, he received it at Manchester United when we dominated play in the opening half-hour, failed to capitalise on possession before collapsing against a very average team.

Against a much stronger team on Saturday, the team focused on defensive play to earn a well-deserved draw. But anything other than a defensive strategy would inevitably have resulted in a heavy defeat. Had we had more effective attackers with pace, we might even have stolen a win in the closing stages as Arsenal ran out of ideas despite using their five substitutes.

To sum up, we have some good players of Premier League standard but mainly in the defensive areas of the team. The area where we are currently below standard is in the attacking areas. In that scenario, it makes eminent sense to make the most of our defensive strength until such time that we have the attacking power to adopt a more offensive approach.

Whilst no Premier League footballer is rubbish, relative to the average standard of Premier League footballer, then our players are below par.

You provided some excellent examples: Mykolenko is far less of a threat than Digne. Ndiaye is far less productive than Richarlison, etc.

This is what our fans don't appreciate and it's pure passion and fantasy to believe we can play more openly when we're just so darn wasteful in attacking areas and when having shots at goal.

It does frustrate me that we have so many fans with an untrained eye: how many chances do Calvert-Lewin and Beto need to miss before fans realise that Dyche can only work with what he's got??

Are we really expecting Dyche to tell a 39-year-old Young to bomb up and down the pitch overlapping??

I can hear the ‘What about Patterson' shouts but a) he couldn't get in the Rangers team; b) Rafa didn't rate him; c) Frank didn't rate him; d) Dyche doesn't rate him.

We are crying out for a silk purse to be made with a sow's ear.

Let's put it another way: how many of our players are wanted elsewhere to be a regular first teamer??? Maybe Pickford, Branthwaite and Tarkowski at best. None of the rest of them get in a mid-table (or above) team on a regular basis, yet Dyche has to put up with completely unrealistic expectations.

Madness!

I've really nothing to add to their excellent posts.

We've seen some good attacking games this season where we could and should have scored 4 or 5 goals, and others where we can't string 2 passes together. This seems to highlight one of our main failings, ie, consistency.

Is this, as Brian suggests, a result of the manager's game plans and instructions strait-jacketing and stifling the players' natural ability, or is it a lack of heart and desire to win?

Like Brian, I can't make up my mind but I think a lot of it is down to Dyche's mindset and tactics.

We don't have the worst squad in the Premier League but we do tend to play square pegs in round holes much too often to get the best out of what we've got.

Individual talent, such as McNeil, is a luxury at the moment as the team grind out points to steer clear of the Bottom 3.

It would be nice to be in a more comfortable position in the Premier League to let the handbrake off and not worry about the consequences of relegation. I think then and only then will we see more individual talent.

Everything stated is bang on the money. Here's to a dominant, battling defensive but rewarding festive fixture list and beyond.

Liverpool dropped points on Saturday; we gined 1 point —ain't life sweet at times. COYB

It begs the question as to what on earth Frank Lampard was doing when he had Richarlison, Gordon, Iwobi, Gray in the squad. Why were we so bad?

In my view, though we can't separate out the players from the style of play they are asked to adopt, we cannot look at the performance of an individual player and compare him with another player at another club cos they play a different model.

For instance, in Moyes's old teams, the centre-backs always looked great, cos the whole team was designed around what suited the centre-backs. That meant that the centre-forwards would be more likely to look like donkeys, cos they were asked to run around all the time.

So you could say that Sylvan Distin was as good as Vidic, cos they had similar stats, but we all know that our style of play would have helped him get into the same bracket.

And equally now, we play a low-ambition boring style of football, cos we've got Doucoure, Gueye, Young, Coleman, who are all 35 or over, and so we play a low block so their slowness isn't exposed.

As such, I would say that it really is the shortcomings in our players that is ultimately leading us to this position. Nobody's fault, we've not been able to spend for years; but certainly not a stick to beat the manager with, I'm sure any other top manager would do the same.

In short, it would be my contention that it is not the style of play that is holding back the players; it is the players who are holding back our style of play, because objectively our players have physical shortcomings (ie, their age) that we know would be exposed with a more expansive system.

Although some of our players are not the best and a few were out of sorts earlier this season, we do have some decent players.

Pickford, Tarkowski (back on form), and Branthwaite. Malanga, Gueye and Ndiaye looking good the past few matches.

Dominic tries, but is often isolated. Broja put in a decent cameo on Saturday. That's down to tactics from the manager as I see it.

So, with a few additions, the basis of a half-decent team.

Whether that is January is down the the owners and Thelwell, as I don't think Dyche will have a say whenever he is going.

The Wolves game illustrated to me that, even when we were 3-0 up, the team never showed any real confidence, they were still making the misplaced passes and losing the ball too easily.

And when we were 2-0 up, the crowd was still tense realising that if Wolves got a goal back we were liable to get worse and possibly panic and lose the game.

And I lose faith in it.

I also don't think it really reflects ability. It's so skewed towards age. Are the best players all really 24?

We have a spine of decent players. Players who we pay a lot of money to each week. Pickford, Tarkowski, Gueye, Ndiaye, Calvert-Lewin. It's far from terrible. It's no coincidence that it's almost exclusively the defensive players who appear to be performing.

I see a few references on this thread to Demarai Gray. Pacy, could muster a goal threat, unpredictable, and not a great contributor to defence. There's a reason why we don't have those sort of players and it's not just financial or because he's a bad egg. He was frozen out of the team well before the public fall out, which deprived us of an attacking option.

If you were a pacy attacker who has more interest in the opposition goal than your own... would you move to Sean Dyche's Everton? I wonder what Ndiaye is thinking about his move?

I don't know what sort of move Calvert-Lewin will get. But I bet he's itching to get away anyway.

John is bang on the money, except for the bit which says that most of the players who are of a good enough standard for the Premier League are defensive players.

I agree that the area where we are below average is in the attacking area, but Calvert-Lewin, Ndiaye, McNeil, hopefully soon Broja, are all decent forward-thinking players, but because it's rare for our wide players getting anyone running past them, it usually means that Everton are one of the easiest teams to defend against.

Patterson could give us something going forward but he can't get near the team, whilst Mykolenko is an ever-present, even though it's rare for him to break forward.

One of my favourite Everton players over the last 25 years has been Steven Pienaar but I'm not sure he would be any use playing in a team that never really tries to create a 2 v 1 situation out wide.

I know that the result flattered us with two own goals, and we are prone to panic and crumble under pressure ourselves.

But the point that I am making is that Everton applied pressure for Wolves to make mistakes, and to me that proves we are capable of taking the game to other teams, especially at home.

I look back at the '60s team, the '70s team and then the '80s
Those teams did not win things because they had the most expensive players.

They won things because the teams had balance. A mix of expensive and also cheap players who gelled and as a unit were great “teams”.

I'll not go back to the '60s and '70s teams as most will probably relate to the '80s teams. Southall, cost nowt. Ratcliffe and Mountfield, nowt. Reid, Sheedy, nowt. Gray nowt. Sharp was what? £100k from Dumbarton.

Players were brought in and slowly a team was built up and a pattern of play made to suit those players that were, in my opinion, possibly destined to rule Europe. It took time and Kendall made many mistakes but once the players gained confidence, off we went.

This present bunch do not have the balls or confidence to step up, I'm afraid. We do have, like many have said, a few good ones, and who may spring a few surprises. Hopefully we can get rid of some and bring in better.

Until we stabilise the club off the field, we can't expect much on it just now.

All of the others have deficits of speed (all midfielders); control (Doucoure… Clang! – as it hits his shin again!); physical presence (Harrison); instinct (lack of attacking for Mykolenko, shooting for Calvert-Lewin); skill to beat a man (all except Ndiaye); composure (Beto), etc...

So, 40-50% of our first 11 are "suitable", that's 20-30% of the squad. With better coaching, instruction and confidence, that score may double, but that would still only be 50-60% of our squad up to a standard expected from a team that should be in the Top 10 in the country.

That's why we are bottom of the middle third or top of the bottom third.

How did it get like this? It's not just because the players are the above, that's merely a symptom. It's because the entire club has been eroded and reshaped throughout the last 35 years as an entity to make money (which is extracted from the business) rather than a football team to win trophies.

Against Man Utd, we were set up to attack and expose them on the flanks, which we did for half an hour, but we couldn't take advantage due to our predictable impotency in front of goal, so eventually we fell apart and took a pasting.

After the game, most posters conveniently side-stepped this and took predictable swipes at Dyche when actually he'd tried to give us a platform to take the game to a weak Man Utd team.

The game at Arsenal then exemplified the only way these players can get a result away from home against bigger teams, and it's not by attacking with either abandon or a cohesive plan.

That said, I think Dyche misses a trick or two when at home in doing something with his line-ups to get the crowd going, one or two tweaks to his preferred eleven would mean we could get on the front foot more often without conceding the midfield or our defensive solidity.

I think our attacking players are bereft of both confidence and skills, Dyche has thus adapted his approach accordingly. Set pieces remain our most potent form of attack.

Comments that certain players are paid well and so should be performing more effectively display a disengagement from reality and an obvious agenda. We've paid over the odds for years due to our muddled recruitment, that has nothing to do with the manager, it's a complete non-argument.

Everton are suffering a crisis in confidence as an attacking unit and have done for some time. Dyche is not the long-term answer to that, but he didn't create the problem either like some would have you believe. We need both better players, and sooner or later a manager who can breed some confidence and goals back into them. There's no quick fix.

For me, you can be a good player in a poor team, but it's unlikely to be good enough to turn the team into a good one.

Success for the team is all about winning games, and you can't win many games if you can't score.

So when I see a bunch of players who can't put the ball in the net (and professional players too), then I don't classify them as being very good.

Whether it's the manager, the system, the weather…. it just seems nuts in the ‘modern game' where defending seems to have been abandoned at times, we haven't managed to see a player who regularly scores a goal.

See what Clough did in the 70s, he built teams but always had a top striker or two.

I am still hopeful that Ndiaye could be such, but he needs someone to play closer to him. I can understand our manager not allowing that at The Emirates, but there are other games where it could make the difference between gaining 1 point and 3.

Dyche trusts the defensive players, but has too many forward players helping the defence.

Two or three well-thought additions and a manager with a more positive outlook could make a decent difference to this squad.

Iwobi is a case in mind Tony, easily Premier League standard and now playing in a team that utilises his talents properly, look at the difference.

Pretty mediocre for us, a star for Fulham. I'll bet there were plenty saying Chris Woods wasn't a Premier League player too.

For me, our current position is two or three places below where this current team should be, and if you chuck in the games where we have either had a catastrophic loss of focus (Bournemouth) been caught on the break (Southampton) or losing after a bright start (Brighton) we have, sadly, betrayed a weak mentality. This is something the manager has pointed to in pressers, without actually taking direct responsibility himself, and he clearly regards this “mentality” issue as something he inherited upon taking the job.

Dyche is now placing himself in the role of the bringer of positive change, if only he is given the tools to do the job (ie, a squad refresh). I have always thought he has done well, given the hand he has been dealt, but – as he has said himself numerous times – it's “all about results” and the fans expect much better.

Several comments on this thread have correctly referenced the atrocious passing game we have at Everton, and this does not appear to have improved at all under Dyche's tenure. By contrast, I was taken by the quality of passing in the Bournemouth v West Ham game last night; Iraola's men know how – and when – to pass a ball and very quickly get the ball to the feet of pacy and tricky wingers. The Cherries were a constant threat from start to finish, yet we cede around 70% possession in every game, home or away.

Dyche and his football has had its day, I'd love to see the players in their rightful positions and let loose to do what we hope they are capable of?

Like is said above, the players we have are professional and supposedly Premier League standard… let them prove it!

Sight flaw in your argument. Digne and Gordon played zero games for Dyche.

Iwobi played 19 games for Dyche, everyone he was available for and was voted Players Player of the season.

We got c £90M for the three players because they were good players.

We have invested very little of that into the playing squad as evidenced by our negative net spend of £50M in the last 3 years

That's the reason our squad lacks quality. Three creative players replaced by cheaper workhorses. It's not difficult…

Tell me if we had:

Digne instead of Mykolenko;
Richarlison instead of Lindstrøm;
Iwobi instead of Harrison;
Gordon instead of Ndiaye…

We're not a better team regardless of the coach

I didn't know Ademola Lookman has just won African Player of the Year.

I think you're looking at Iwobi and Gordon through rose-tinted glasses. Neither were considered must-have names on the team sheet whilst they were with us. That wasn't due to coaching or positioning. Both used to get flack due to regularly losing the ball or no end product.

There's every chance they were motivated to improve when they left because they had to. Both took a while to settle into their respective new teams and took heat until they adapted.

Totally agree with Richarlison and Digne.

The problem is/was we couldn't keep players as we needed to balance the books.

Whether Dyche would get the best out of any of the four had they stayed, is yet another question.

Life is always nuanced, there is always going to be a bit of both when you are as bad as us, but personally I think the current team and squad is just about the worst in 55 years of supporting Everton. It is not the least bit surprising that we chug along the bottom of the table. Our saviour has been how tough it is for newly promoted clubs to cope. There is always one, sometimes two, totally out of their depth.

I'm not going to do a player-by-player assessment, as others have already done so, but we also have one of the oldest teams in the Premier League now, so even players who were once pretty handy, like Young, Coleman, Gueye and Tarkowski, are getting close to or past their sell-by date. It's going to be a challenge just to maintain the status quo. I hope we can recruit better than we have been.

It will also be interesting to see who comes in for Calvert-Lewin, supposedly one of our best and most highly paid players. Personally, I think he is going to be disappointed if he thinks a Top 6 or 8 team will shell out £150k a week, even if they get him for next to nothing.

I think you are forgetting Iwobi's final career when, after a couple of forgetful years, he established himself as an ever-present. Contributed eight assists and was the club players' Player of the Year. It's also undoubtedly true he had a little bit of creative quality that we lack desperately.

Gordon was a young kid coming through. Again, his talent was undeniable and that's why Newcastle shelled £50M.

My point is that we have lost genuinely creative players and replaced them with inferior ones. I also realise that we've had to do that because of the mismanagement of previous years

So our squad is hovering around its benchmark. I look back at some of the games this season: Ipswich, Bournemouth, 30 minutes against Man Utd, and we dominated. I would like to see more and the players are capable.

My issue is how we set up and the style or lack of that we play with.

I get it that no one wants to be relegated, particularly this season, but we are not out of the woods yet so I believe we will not move away from our current way of playing, including against so-called lesser teams.

I wanted Dyche to get the full season and have not changed my mind and I often wonder how he would do with better quality players, let's say Brighton? Would he play to their strengths or his ideology?

So overall, our players are not good enough for our manager's ideology; whether they are good enough for the Premier League is another question.

Fair enough up to a point and we obviously pressed Wolves more than we have done against other teams but all the goals came from corners and a disallowed one from a free kick.

We could have scored more when Broja came on and laid on some chances for Harrison… but the less said about Harrison's efforts, the better.

I thought Wolves' defence and goalkeeper and their performances helped with the four goals they did concede.

Everton is not a good career choice for players, since they seem to gravitate to below-par performance. This has been the case for a number of years. This for me is due to a training structure that has doffer management or at least is influenced by doffers.

The other area is individual player development which seems to go well for a while… but then seems to fall off. Long-term development of players is also weak. Some are even damaged by it, Calvert-Lewin being a glaring example.

So is the solution a set formation, which is usually suggested, as in an offensive formation? No, not in the Premier League. It may work well for one game, but will be analysed and countered by the next, with the key players getting special attention.

Everton have currently got a relegation specialist manager with a ridgid defensive structure. When he gets illusions of offensive play, it is against the wrong teams: Chelsea, Bournemouth and Man Utd.

Everton in Dyche's words 'do not have an individual striker that can score, what they have is a team of strikers'. Support play for individual Strikers is not a priority. If Dyche is on for a point in the second half, forward play diminishes.

Another issue is that constantly struggling for Premier League survival season after season results in burnout. Everton players do show evidence of this.

That is certainly not happening at Everton at the moment. I think that Dyche's tactics make many of them look bad.

That being said, I believe your conclusion is deeply flawed, and the players you have handpicked to illustrate it are not necessarily properly characterized. Young players like Gordon mature at different speeds -- he was initially considered a flop at Newcastle -- and their improvement after leaving Everton is not necessarily to be credited to better coaching. And please, Dom never remotely looked like a "dead-eye assassin" under Carlo -- a goal every 180 minutes is good production for a striker, but by no means anything special. (And not one goal featured a really good shot.)

More to the point for me is that the team picture is what matters, much more than the individual profile of the players. We have less team speed than almost any of our opponents -- we lose most midfield contests not because of any lack of desire but because the opposition is simply quicker to the ball.

How many players do we have who can consistently complete a successful dribble past an opponent? By my count, two or three -- and one is a center back.

How many players do we have who can really crack a shot? Two, maybe three -- and our best is a reserve center back.

How many players can really drive the ball into attack? My count is two, maybe three counting Jarrad. Regularly put in good crosses? One. Consistently convert an opportunity in the box? Zero, except for that same reserve center back.

I wouldn't phrase it that the players are not good enough, but rather that we do not have enough good players. And given the age of our squad, dreaming of "latent potential" is simply not realistic. Most of these guys have long ago shown whatever they've got.

With the ownership transition, our manager -- be it the incumbent or somebody new -- will have more and better talent at his disposal. And that, to me, is the top priority.

Those that constantly degrade our players and accuse supporters of being unrealistic are the very ones who are completely illogical. They say we don't have Digne or Richarlison or a prime Coleman but what they fail to understand is that those players were constantly operating in a team which was finishing between 6th and 12th depending on a good or bad season.

Never have I heard one critical supporter of Dyche arguing we should be competing for Europe. It's almost like they have an internal debate to justify their argument and then prove only to themselves how bad our squad is.

Then they point to Mykolenko, Young, Harrison and McNeil as proof that we don't have the ability to attack from defence or pace to hurt teams the other way. Now not having Iwobi is an excuse even though we didn't need or miss him last season and he was useless under Dyche unlike Lampard and Silva now. Dyche has no desire for overlapping full backs or speedy widemen even if we had Cafu,Carlos,Salah and Overmars on our books. They wouldn't have the license.

Lyndon you have highlighted players we have lost who improve elsewhere but there are also many here especially offensive players who have a history of productivity but aren't showcasing that under this regime. They are constrained, misused, have lost confidence, uncoached and generally are just pawns in Dyche's system. Their skillets and deficiencies are inconsequential and secondary to the rigid, collective ideology of Dyche.

Many have pointed to the Brentford game as Dyche limitations embarrassing for all to see but for me the West Ham game was almost as bad in terms of strategy.

This game it was argued by defenders of Dyche that we played well, dominated the game, had lots of shots, took the game to them, that we limited them to few chances and he was constrained by having few options from the bench. All pretty accurate but for me they didn't see the game as I did and were missing the bigger picture.

On the day they had three slugs in central midfield. Our trio were always going to overpower theirs which was like the Davies, Gomes and Sigurdson axis for us. We played with our usual 4-2-3-1 and over 90% of our 'shots' fell to Gueye,Mangala or Doucoure with the latter only a genuine goal threat. As usual Dominic was starved of service but Ndiaye and Lindsrom were so restricted that they were constantly behind all 3 central midfielders as Dyche had clearly identified Bowen and Summerville as their threats.

For me this was not a game where we needed to be more positive, proactive or use different players. This was just all about Dyche's methodology and how he expects to win a game. Our centre forward gets no crosses or pull backs and his only hope for a chance was from a slide pass where he is expected to be Thierry Henry. Our 'wide players' were so deep that their creation or opportunity to score was non existent. Indeed Ndiaye was having to beat a couple of players just to get into a chance of a creating position.

Gueye, Mangala and Doucoure all had opportunities due to their midfield not being able or unwilling to match them. Then when they don't convert these opportunities mostly front 25 yards then they are labelled as shit.

Would it not have been more logical to play a 4-3-3 formation and get Lindstrom and Ndiaye further up the pitch and supporting Dominic. Would it not make more sense to trust our full backs to defend and have Gueye sitting and covering from side to side. Mangala and Doucoure can still go box to box but at least if a chance does fall you have our most potent players in the most advanced roles to provide a cross, a bit of magic or if a half chance presents itself. Indeed our one clear chance on the day came from Lindstrom (yes Lindstrom) getting the ball from the edge of our box, passing it forward to Gueye who passes it forward to Doucoure, even that tells you why we don't score.

You look at the job of a coach regardless of the hand he is dealt (and this unequivocally the best one of the three seasons he has had) and you say expose your strengths and hide your deficiencies regardless of ideology. It is clear for everyone to see that full back and wide positions are where we are weak. There are numerous teams in the league who are weak in a lot more critical areas than we are, even those with better players and better squads like West Ham who are unbalanced in midfield and central defence and is a major factor in not competing for Europe.

Mykolenko is no Baines or Digne but I believe he is better defensively than both and is perfect for a back three as is Coleman on the right. Tarkowski, O Brien, Branthwaite and Keane are all proficient on the ball so would also be well suited.

Harrison and Patterson are suited to the right midfield role. Lindstrom less so but he is doing so in the current set up.

McNeill could certainly do so on the left Mykolenko might be a less able deputy though.

Central midfield would need legs of which all 5 on the books are perfect. Gueye is a warrior, Mangala has coolness, Doucoure has athleticism, Garner has vision and Tim has the ability to glide past men.

The likes of Ndiaye and Lindstrom are crying out to play more centrally as inside forwards. Both want to get behind the striker and in pockets. Doucoure and Harrison could do a job but more crucially we could also transition to play with two strikers if one was poor. Only Calvert Lewin and Beto are unsuited as a pair but Broja and Chermiti could really benefit.

Only Young would be the fall guy yet so many players would benefit. The problem with a system like this is that it would require nuance.

Pickford, Mykolenko, Young, Tarkowski, Branthwaite, Gueye, Mangala, Doucoure, Ndiaye, Calvert-Lewin, McNeil

6 of those signed under his stewardship, another introduced to the first team by him.

The team is shaped in his image, it's what he does. Hard-working, physical players but it's bereft of genuine quality. The question is, given the financial environment what else could he do other than what he knows best?

The idea that he's going to go out and play expansive football is for the birds. It's ugly and dispiriting but it's probably our best chance of staying in the Premier League.

If the new ownership actually has some way of providing funds for squad investment, I'd have him absolutely nowhere near it… but for now, we have to grit our teeth and hope it works like it did in the previous two seasons.

He did sign Tarkowski for Burnley and McNeil came through the youth system there also.

Totally nonsensical point.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/42706216/how-set-piece-specialists-thriving-premier-league

A New York Times article I cited last year (it unfortunately remains behind a paywall) profiles Dyche as one of the few managers to use free kicks from his own end as attacking opportunities, and choreographing them accordingly using Pickford's big leg and one thing Everton players are really good at -- winning long balls in the air. Nobody better than Dom or Tarks. Produced some goals last season.

It's always nice to get a little bit of detail as to why my point is nonsensical.

Rather than replying to the whole article, or even some posts individually, the one post that prompted me to post was Conor McCourt's at [62]

I can't recall who said that as a manager (in his example Carlo) should look at his squad, and apply tactics that suit the squad.

Well, I did think about this on a Robert Tressell article and asked Tony Abrahams about an alternative to the 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 that Dyche seems to prefer (Much like people saying putting a couple of players in unfamiliar or non-preferred positions)

You can argue regards the personnel required for a formation, but I would move away from a back four altogether with the inadequacies and limited depth that this team has.

Personally, I'd play (Yes, being brave or idiotic Tony 🙂) a back 3, and play a 3-4-2-1 formation.

This gives a central box of four, or a natural four triangle formation in the middle of the park, with the two players wide in the four being able to crowd the infield, support the back three, or support the front three with depth and width.

With the current staff, although this is all theoretical of course, I'd play the following team;

Pickford

Tarkowski Keane Branthwaite (O'Brien and Myko)

Patterson (Young) Gana Mangala McNeil (Young)

Lindstrøm NDiaye

DCL (Or in time Broja, Chermiti, Beto)

I think it would still provide excellent defensive cover that Dyche would like (as he always asks his FBs to play narrow anyway) plus having a third CB at the back may mean we could leave an attacking player at the halfway line.

As I say, you could pick and choose differing personnel; e.g. some may not like Patterson, but as far as I'm aware, he fell into disgrace with Dyche because he played RB as an RB should, and not as an everted CB... I feel he might thrive as a RWB (as it may be called?)

Most importantly, the formation could get Lindstrøm and NDiaye closer to the striker (whomever that would be) and also play the pair of them in their more preferred positions (or near enough)

Just my thoughts...

Though my parting shot on the issue in hand; Are Everton players that bad (no, not in general), is it the managers tactics (his hands are tied currently, he's been asked to do a job and he is being pragmatic)

However, what isn't being mentioned, is Finch Farm, which whatever players or managers we have had in, has been a constant.

From stories regaled to me, if I were the new owners or in someway associated with them. I'd clear Finch Farm out, everyone to go, I'd restructure the site so that is cutting edge now, and not cutting edge from 17 years ago, also the owners would have to have a discussion with 'their' DoF and identify the very best personnel for all roles, from niche coaching to cafe staff and get the whole site running as a centre of (and for) excellence.

Personally, I feel that the entrenched and ingrained attitudes with the staff at Finch Farm does nothing to help our team.

But one of the most successful managers in football, Carlo Ancelotti, was moved to admit he would have to be a magician to solve Everton's issues.

And yet with a worse squad, Sean Dyche should be finishing 8th or 9th.

Everton's players aren't that bad but they ain't great either.

The squad is still a Frankensteinian (if it is not a word, it should be) Monster's mixture cocktailed from various managers, failed projects, loans and cut price deals.

What I have noticed is that there are very few partnerships on the pitch at the moment. One seems to be developing between Gueye and Mangala - but that seems to be about it. As many have mentioned - to top it all - a lot of creative players were let go and sold off. So, we have Dyche piecing together a number of other managers and DOF's (plus the interference from owners etc.) players into some sort of cohesive unit. That said - I think they are actually better than they are showing at the moment. Once Broja is up to speed, and Garner and Iroegbunam return, then there are more possibilities.

Do I think Dyche could be more imaginative - 100% yes. Do I understand his pragmatism - 100% yes, though it is a hard watch - as was the Arsenal game in my opinion.

The one thing I don't understand is paying out as much for the likes of Chermiti, O'Brien and Beto (even with the delayed payments) - when the needs are immediate. That is not to say that they will not develop into something decent, but the stakes are too high in the present to think too far into the future I reckon.

Being pedantic but you’re misquoting him. Carlo said “I’m not a magician.” You’re extrapolating on that and making assumptions about Everton. It may simply have been that while in Corby he saw reruns of old 80s shows and unimpressed reacted by distancing himself from magician Paul Daniels.

But defending set pieces has improved.It nearly became a Achilles heal last season how poor defending set pieces had become.

Has Dyche reduced the committment to Everton set pieces, because of fear of counter attack?.It may be because of players carrying injuries.

It could be considered a critical area for improvement in Everyone's game plan in future fixtures.

In any Premier League match it is rare for any team to dominate for 90 plus ( a increasing plus since the last international tournament) minutes.Everton are very dependent on this to get get into attacking modem.In the latter quarter of games it could be said that they are not interested, even when games could be won, especially against some lower table opposition in this past season play.

Thats one helluva of a post mate.

I think you need to get away from thinking there is a "They", a "Them" an "Us" or a "We".

What you get on TW is hundreds of different people, giving thousands of differing opinions on dozens of different players managed by several different managers over a period of God knows how long.

We cant be put into two camps. Its not just a question of Pro, or Anti Dyche. Those who criticise him do so for a whole bunch of reasons. They are not of one voice, they hardly even agree with each other. Likewise; Those who defend him, do so for a whole bunch of different reasons. They hardly agree with each other either.

Anybody who takes on the challenge of managing a club this size, does so in the certain knowledge that every decision he makes will be second guessed by a couple of hundred thousand people - Noise.

Dyches drives me nuts, but nowhere near as nuts as some of the demented criticism and solutions I hear from people who think they know better - BTW; Would you really risk the future of this club by playing two strikers who have barely mustered a game between them in the past two seasons, let alone a goal ?

I wonder why some go after the current Everton with such rage and anger. There is nothing new happening this season. Sam, Carlo, Rafa and Frank also served up football which was every bit as ugly. My memory plays no tricks.

Personally I would sum up our seemingly endless anti-football with one word- Fear.

We may not be the shining light we once were, but we are still one of footballs greatest institutions. So much so that If we were to go down, you would not have to wait for the Sports news to hear about it. It would be Main news headlines, everywhere and while we cant compete financially with richer clubs, No manager wants the relegation of Everton FC on his CV.

Keep it tight. Keep them up. Take the money and move on.

I have probably been influenced by McNeil's numerous deliveries to the goalkeeper in one match and Tarkowski not being as prominent.

So it is working stats-wise for Dyche on that front. I do think he is trying to change forward play by having Doucoure play more forward in his team of scorers. Mangala finally being seen as a starter in midfield has helped retain possession, but I think Lindstrom would be better than Doucoure in a midfield trio. He also needs to get more from the centre-forward position, including Calvert-Lewin, by providing supporting play.

What Matt's article and your post shows is Dyche like other Premier League Managers go with the stats and are not interested in Fan opinions or how it looks.Manager meetings with me and defence of their performance are based on stats. Preparation for games is also and it is the Manager and team that get the stats right that prevail on the day.

Hopefully Dyche has learnt something from his forward experiments against Brentford and Man Utd. Moving on, getting it right against Arsenal, and scoring a few more goals.

There is no ideal solution, since what works in one game will be statistically analysed to death and countered in the next game. The fact that Dyche is the right side of the curve on set pieces helps a lot.

First off, I wanted to say that every article I read there seems to be comments comparing Ancelotti and Dyche in some way and I don't get it – it seems an unfair comparison on both sides.

Ancelotti averaged 1.6 points per game (according to Transfermarkt) and Dyche 1.27.

Yes, Dyche has had a lot to deal with, but Ancelotti had Covid, Moshiri, Blue Bill, Brands, and a complete losing culture to shift. He did state that he wasn't a magician, but I think that was kind of saying there is no quick fix to getting into Europe. He was responding to the fact people accused him of never building a team from the ground up and he almost, imo, was saying "just watch me become a magician".

Finally, to compare the two is crazy, imagine what Dyche would do with the Real Madrid squad and I think you see why that is just unfair on both men.

In terms of this Everton team, I think it is correct to say a different manager will get a different tune from different players. The Graham Potter comparison is great – I think he would do the same for us particularly under new ownership.

Maybe Dyche deserves a chance to show what he can do, problem is I don't think he's demonstrated any other way of playing, which probably means Friedkin would be asked to invest in players ultimately he wouldn't want in an ideal world.

When perhaps a different manager would get Calvert-Lewinscoring again, take some players from the youth team and just get the new stadium rocking.

The approach I am suggesting (3-4-2-1)!is one which I believe could and should have been implemented from the start or when we had difficulties at right back and a player like O'Brien could have been transitioned into the team. I am not calling for 2 strikers either but when we have 3 fit ones on the bench that becomes an option when chasing a goal. Don't forget Dyche when panicking chucks Keane or Beto beside Dominic without a source of service to feed them. If Lindsrom is poor for example he can be replaced with Broja whereby the midfield isn't emptied ( like in a 4-4-2) and both strikers will get service (McNeill and Patterson)

Colin quite frankly with Sean I had given up months ago even asking for changes in personnel or substitutions let alone something more radical like a change in system or ideology. You may see me as a 'know it all' but I certainly ain't a fool.

This season I believe our squad is the best we have had since Carlo's. Ndiaye, Mangala and O'Brien are excellent additions. Broja is a player I have always liked and Lindsrom while struggling has a lot of quality even though he still has to prove it in this league. We won't see it under Dyche but it's there.Young Tim a player I had never even heard of has been a bit of a revelation. n terms of relegation at the start of the season with the quality of squads I think Forest would have been as, if not more likely to be competing for the drop though Milenkovic has been a game changing signing for them (both boxes).He actually reminds me a bit of O'Brien though a more polished version.

Colin your mind in my opinion does play tricks on you. Lampard for all his limitations did not play anti-football. Indeed part of his problem was that he didn't play effective football. He was the total opposite as a player as he is a coach. As a player he had little style but all substance, as a manager this was visa versa. Until his last 8 game meltdown we were often the better team, couldn't score and would concede a soft goal. At times it was like how did we lose that game today?which just rinsed and repeated, but in fairness to him the football was cultured not agricultural despite being a ridiculous appointment.

You may hold the belief to keep it tight, grind out a point and move on. I am sure the new owners will have a lot more ambition than that and we can finally get rid of this Dyche psyche Winning a game of football gets you 3 points, against a rival like Wolves it was worth even more. Eeking out points is what puts you in the predicament we are now.

Posters like me "who think they know better with demented CRITICISMS and SOLUTIONS" drives you nuts, well perhaps you have honed in to the wrong article which actively implores ANALYSIS and HYPOTHETICAL REASONSING.You speak about fear and the future of the club being at risk. In my humble opinion that is a reality imposed, not destined.

It is the players who score goals and, if you watch them in training, they score from different angles from different parts and distances of the field but on match days they seem to panic in front of goal.

Yes, the manager should learn to play a more offensive game but this may provide more opportunities for the players to miss.

This is another season that we are struggling to avoid relegation, and that can be assisted by players scoring more with the opportunities they get, and yes a more modern manager may develop a more offensive style team but, unless you have the players that can score, you will still struggle with this team.

There are a lot of games where players have missed opportunities to score and, with the managers more defensive style, that gives the opposition more incentive to attack.

The manager has to utilize the players he has and, even if it is not nice to watch, the players have to play to the tactics he uses.

The only positives I believe could happen would be, there are enough players in the present squad that a more modern tactical thinking manager could use, to provide a better style of game to watch, but even he will need reinforcements.

There will always be complaints no matter who manages, but they are just personal feelings. My own feelings are there seem to be a very large number of supporters who believe we need a new manager with the new ownership, and we need to start rebuilding the club up, back to where we belong, fighting for honours with a team and manager that is capable of success.

It all sounds easy on paper but the reality is we play on grass.

My mind does not play tricks on me with regard to Lampards stint. I went to every single game and with the jaw dropping exception of that memorable night at Brighton we were generally abject.

Time and again I watched him pick two defensive midfield players at home to inferior opposition. Time and again I watched a lonely Maupay hopelessly isolated against bigger, faster stronger defenders. Anthony Gordon spent most of the season playing as an extra fullback. Like Carlo before him we spent whole games without mustering a shot. Leicester Southampton Fulham, Wolves Villa simply strode forward to win at Goodison knowing we had no attacking intent. Newcastle Brighton and City contemptuously dismissed Franks gutless approach by trying to run up cricket scores. Out of 38 games that season you could count on one hand the number of times we scored more than once.

I don't understand how you can name players like Lindstrom, Broja, Iroegbunam and O'Brien as improvements to the squad. Lindstrom is a Jason Kumas (stand out in lesser leagues). O'Brien cant even get into the worst Irish team in memory and the other two have spent nearly all their time on the treatment table. How can players who are not available improve a squad ?

BTW; I never said that I have belief that "keep it tight, grind out a point and move on was good enough, I was merely relaying how I felt these managers approached the job - But then you already knew that, didnt you ?

I want Dyche gone. but I wont be re-writing history to make my point. I know a culture of fear has been strangling my club for many years. I also know we have been known as the dullest team in the league by the rest of football for many years. The only people who don't seem to know this are those who think Dyche has suddenly brought this terrible curse upon us.

I'll see your pedantry... I'm certainly not misquoting Carlo.

You mention...

'My mind does not play tricks on me with regard to Lampards stint. I went to every single game and with the jaw dropping exception of that memorable night at Brighton we were generally abject.'

I've read the thread a fair way back and so may be misinterpreting your above comment (in light of your prevous remarks and responses to them) but you suggest your mind does not play tricks. Wasn't Sean Dyche the manager at Brighton on that occasion? As said, may be reading your interpretation wrongly and apologies if so..😀

I'm trying to be fair to Dyche here. So I can assure you it wasnt a deliberate attempt to rob him of the credit for that great Brighton win. I can remember every game of that season, but I did momentarily forget that Lampard was sacked after 23 games - Just had to check that too.

We scored 18 goals in those 23 game (three in one game) so inadvertently my error has (to me at least) reaffirmed my point.

The manager changed. The football didnt

I read people praising Iwobi, and understand their views about him being creative, but his lack of defensive discipline, actually made me think he was a cheat, at times, and never more so than that night, when he continually broke rank, and made it so easy for the Brighton - central defender, who was on loan from Chelsea, and also very difficult for his teammates, on the night the crowd began to really turn on the board.

Let me be clear about my views on Sean Dyche and your claims that the negative football that has strangled our club. There hasn't been a bigger critic of previous managers whether it was Koeman, Allardyce, Ancelloti or Benitez than me. Indeed I believe now the TFG takeover is complete Dyche will soon be removed but he most definitely is the only one to have left any kind of legacy for what he achieved last season with pressures no manager should have to injure. Koeman did get Europe but I'm not sure his overall contribution will be that favourable. History will most certainly be kind to Sean Dyche.

Now Colin you moved the goalposts there when I said to you that it was Dyche who put us in this fight for survival you spoke of, I never said he brought this negative football to our club.

With regards Lampard you claimed you were at every single one of those home games.Now I have no intention of critiquing you here, it serves no purpose, but I do need to address a few of your points.

Of the games at Goodison which were actually attributable to him during that horrible run you suggest we didn't lay a glove on inferior opposition.

Of the 3 home (not 5) games that he actually managed only Leicester was that true, we were dreadful. Against Southampton at 1-1 he took off Coleman and brought on Gordon.to try and win it. This backfired as young Anthony with his exuberance gave away a needless free kick from which they scored. Really unfair on the young man.who was so desperate to make an impact. Against Wolves it was 1-1 we didn't take our chances and they won it in stoppage time. We had 36 shots, only 12 on target with 53% possession over the 3 games shading the latter 2 statistically.

Another point on Lampard which doesn't tally is that he had Gordon playing like a left back. Gordon like Iwobi actually flourished under Lampard. He played him left wing, right wing, number ten and up front. In terms of goals per 90 mins he scored 1 goal per 5.5 games which blows the likes of Ndiaye, Lindsrom and Harrison out of the water under Dyche (but not elsewhere).

Under Lampard you will now be aware we also beat Newcastle, drew with City and lost to a solitary goal against them.

As I said previously I don't agree we played anti-football or ugly football under Lampard but I do agree we played gutless, toothless or even boring football. I believe it was cultured but with little risk. Our possession stats were decent though, we had a lot of control in games, at times we pressed high and rarely did we go route one. He tried to be too smart for his own good, constantly chopping and changing formations and players, in truth he was out of his depth. In his 38 games we only scored a paltry 34 goals and only on 7 occasions in the league did we score more than one goal though we also did twice in the cup.

Now I will explain to you why I think this squad is a massive upgrade to last season. From last campaign 2 players were effectively moved on. Both were players who the manager didn't implicitly trust unlike Jarrad and Dominic. I am a big fan of Onana but the manager was not. Ben Godfrey himself was perpetually injured and was no real loss to the side. We have brought in 2 like for like replacements in Mangala and O'Brien. Personally I think Mangala is excellent and not a serious downgrade while OBrien is much better than Godfrey plus he is always fit for selection like Keane.

On top of this Sean has Ndiaye, Tim and Lindstrom as 3 extra bodies that he didn't have. Now as planned he also has Broja at his disposal. You argue that Tim has been injured but don't forget last season we had plenty of injuries to players, all squads do.

Jake O Brien is not in the Ireland squad for one reason, he encountered Sean Dyche. He has played in 2 friendlies and a qualifier after his heroics with Lyon. He is out only due to game time as is Omibamadele at Forest. In my opinion both will be superior players to the Burnley captain Collins and the Ipswich vice captain O'Shea who are currently ahead of them. O'Brien is a beast in both boxes.

With Tim and Mangala I believe we have the best midfield 5 we have had in a long time all with different skill sets. I would argue the centre backs also.

Finally you might be right about Lindstrom but one thing I can guarantee this boy has game intelligence and that bit of quality. The 2 Brentford compatriots excelling in the league now took a little time to adapt and they weren't regarded like him. We won't see it under Dyche because running after the left winger like a donkey all game will not see him in any light

I hadnt realised you had been such a critic of previous managers. With that in mind I don't think we are a million miles apart in our assessment.

I say Lampard sent his teams out to spoil the game. you say we played gutless toothless or boring football. We are basically only disputing his intent.

I don't disagree with you entirely about Gordon either, he did blow our current lot out of the water, although that's quite a low bar, but he did most of his work in our half, especially when he played on the right. I often though he and Seamus were joined at the hip.

The only thing we really disagree on is the quality of this squad compared to the one Frank had. I've been dying to see O'Brien, but I really need to leave him out of my comments because I havent seen enough of him.

We pulled in around 170m on the sales of Onana, Richarlison, Gordon and iwobi. We replaced them with the likes of Beto, Chermiti and Harrison. Despite Richarlisons injury woe's the four we sold have bagged around 40 goals already for their current clubs.

Seamus, Tarks, Keane, Idrissa were all past their best years ago. The very last thing any of them needed was to get two years older. That simply cannot be an improvement

Anyway Conor; Here's to a better future

‘My mind does not play tricks on me with regard to Lampards stint.’’

“No Ian. You are spot on. I stand corrected.”

Laugh out loud funny from the bloke who accuses others of lying if they misremember something. Well congratulations, you are Billy Bullshitter of the day.

I admit if I made a mistake. You on the other hand are a blatant liar who accuses others of stalking ( oh the irony) when you have had your words (and your arse) handed back to you

Laughing at how much being caught out REPEATEDLY is still irking you. Waiting months like a proper stalker yourself to spoil what was otherwise an excellent thread.

Wouldnt dream of calling posters a liar. only you....Theres a reason for that

Although I get your point about those quality individuals, sometimes history can skew what was available at that time and their development.

For example, Richarlison and Onana never played for Lampard together. One was sold when the other came.

Onana and Gordon were both excellent one week yet, being so inexperienced, were passengers the next.

Lampard's best player throughout his reign was Iwobi, Benitez's was Gray and Dyche's initially was Doucoure. For most of these reigns, Dominic wasn't fit. Only Dyche latterly had the benefit of Jarrad.

To put it into context with regards to Lampard, Iwobi has 27 goals in his Premier League career spanning from Arsenal, Everton and Fulham.

Harrison is seen as total shit since he began working with Dyche and our weakest attacker of what is alleged to be a really weak attacking department (which I don't believe). He has 24 goals in the Premier League, 21 of those in only 3 seasons under Bielsa. (3 less in about half the time)

Compared to the richest 6 clubs - yes, the players (and especially the squad) are pretty terrible. Only Branthwaite and Pickford would stand a chance of starting for these sides - and neither would be nailed on to start by any stretch. Is Branthwaite better than Van der Ven at Spurs? Colwill at Chelsea? Martinez at Man Utd? I'm sure their fans would debate that. I don't think he's better than Gvardiol or Maghaeles. I do think he's better than Konate.

Compared to the richer upstarts like Villa, Newcastle and West Ham - again, it's still Branthwaite and Pickford that stand out. Hard to see who else in our squad would get in their first XI sides. Even then many would swap Martinez and Pope for Pickford. And is Branthwaite better than Pau Torres? I've got my views but Villa fans might debate that. And whilst West Ham aren't having much of a season (Lopetegui was a terrible appointment) they do have Fullkrug, Kudus, Summerville, Bowen, Paqueta, Soucek, Alvarez, Todibo, Kilman, Zouma and Emerson etc. Pickford and Branthwaite would definitely start. Maybe Tarkowski too but not on current form. Not sure who else.

Then you've got Brighton, almost in a category of their own, having developed so many players (they could field about 3 different Premier League quality first XI sides) and spent so heavily in summer. How do we compare? Pretty poorly to be honest. Again, it's still Branthwaite and Pickford that would have the best chance of getting in their first XI. Players like Gueye and Mangala might be able to play at this level but they don't really move the dial for Brighton.

Then we get into the group of clubs comprising us, Bournemouth, Forest, Wolves, Brentford, Palace and Fulham. These are our most immediate rivals. It's all open to opinion of course but personally I think player for player we are worse than Brentford, Forest, Palace and Forest. That's only natural since they have spent so much more heavily on their squads than we have. It's more marginal when it comes to Wolves and Fulham. Whilst the likes of Ndiaye and McNeil are good players, for example, it's hard to say they'd waltz into our rivals' sides. They all have players of this type and quality already (or better in the case of, say, Mbeumo, Eze, Gibbs-White etc). What about DCL? Does he start for these sides over the likes of Evanilson, Wood, Cunha, Wissa, Mateta and Jiminez? Not sure. It depends how you feel about DCL.

Once we get into the three promoted sides, it's clearer that we have better players on the whole. But when the injuries struck hard earlier in the season it was much more marginal.

And finally, it's interesting to look at the upper reaches of the Championship with teams like Leeds and Sheffield Utd who each have a good few players who might even start for us in our First XI.

So if the question is are our players really that bad - I think the answer is generally yes. If the question is could our players perform better than they have done this season, then I'd also say yes.

At the start of the season (before the injury crisis and with an expectation of a new RB) I thought we'd finish 12th. That place is currently occupied by massively under-performing Spurs (above massively under-performing Man Utd in 13th) which highlights how weird the table is looking. I suspect we'll now finish more like 14th the way things are going.

That's about right given the strength of the squad.

Other than a new manager bounce, I'm not sure that a new manager could realistically come in and kick us on with this squad. We do need to invest, there are no two ways about it. Hopefully there's a bit of that in January and even more to come in summer.

A lot of that had me in stitches, especially the West Ham synopsis... minor point: Zouma doesn't really help their squad out in Saudi.

He's incapable of getting anywhere near the best out of them.

Forest have spent €438.54M since Moshiri pulled the plug at the end of the 2020-21 season. They've spent €263M net in that same period. Our entire squad only cost about €220M. It makes a big difference.

True, Nuno Espirito Santos is doing a really good job with the tried and trusted 5-2-2-1 formation he used to good effect at Wolves. They're on a good run. They won't finish in the Top 4 of course, but they've invested heavily in the playing squad and it's paying off for them. They may well finish in the Top 10.

I'm not really sure why it causes so much annoyance to say our players aren't so good. Maybe it kills the hope that we're just a "decent manager" away from Top 8 finishes and attacking football? Personally I'd have thought the last 35 years is a good indicator that it's not quite so simple.

Again, personal view but I think the most pressing issue is to invest in the playing squad. Presumably you wouldn't be averse to that if it were to happen.

So you can't answer my question then, Robert: £88M spent on their preferred first 11. Of their fringe players that have contributed, only Anderson cost more than £17M.

Obviously you know how to work transfer market tables but perhaps you don't understand what you are looking at, sounds like it. For all clubs who get promoted there is an opportunity to avoid PSR if they are ambitious; Forest, Burnley and Ipswich were those in the last 3 consecutive seasons.

Forest finished 4th in the Championship so needed the huge outlay to avoid relegation by the skin of their teeth.

Burnley ran away with the Championship yet £100M couldn't keep them up, and Ipswich finished 2nd yet their massive outlay will also prove futile.

This is the extent of the gap these teams have to try to bridge. Only Forest of the 3 will have survived and only just.

In the last 2 seasons since promotion they have spent only £36.5M net and £15M net as, like everyone, they have been trying to work around PSR. They didn't start with a number of top class international players like we had and still have.

Do the players we have on loan not count? Are they not real players? Is Mangala, who has dominated our midfield for the last month, an irrelevance even though he was their best player when they had him? Last week he bossed Rice, today he dominated the best central midfielder in the league Caicedo.

If Broja starts banging in the goals, will they count? What happens if TFG take up all their loan agreements in January, hence that's around a £90M outlay. Does that make us any better because we look better in the transfer market tables?

As much as I don't like the football, I don't think we have much choice.

My view on the op is that we have a hard-working small squad of players that lack guile and goals.

We have very good defensive players but not very good attacking players.

Dyche has a reputation for getting the best out of average players and he is doing that with us. Would Real Madrid or Man Utd appoint him? Probably not.

The new owners may give him more time and a little money to invest but generally the writing is on the wall; when new owners come in, they will want their man in charge.

I would still like to see Dyche given some more time and money to try and get us safely into mid-table and playing better stuff. Is he capable of it? I don't know.

You could add Lampard to that list too and quite a few others.

The next manager will prove to be rubbish too, I expect, unless we start investing in the playing squad again.

A free-spirited player of great quality like Ndiaye is forced into a system where, instead of being able to express himself with the ball, he is forced to play primarily as a defender because our wingers are defenders.

His natural position is a No 10 but, as Dyche put it, a 10 nowadays is an important defensive position. As long as we continue to greet not losing games triumphantly we just encourage this dire colorless sclerotic style of coaching.

Playing a style of footy that celebrates not being able to score goals is not how it should work at Everton. We have good players we should allow them to play; putting 10 men behind the ball is not football.

But what I want to emphasize is this: is our squad amazing? NO. Should we expect a higher standard of player at Everton? Undoubtedly. But is Dyche (and previous managers, for that matter) getting the most out of this group of players? Not even close.

We haven't been more than a sum of our parts since the days of Moyes (admittedly, a different age in terms of the EPL). A Premier League manager is paid extremely handsomely to make silk purses of sows ears. For some reason (and I'd love to read an article or series of articles on just what that reason is... mine isn't it), this manager and several before him have been unable to do that.

But I think it's too easy to lay all the blame at the door of the players themselves. Mykolenko is NOT an overlapping FB and never will be. He's excellent when given a 1-on-1 defending job to do (Salah, Saka) and could excel on the left of a back three. But to continue to criticise him for not getting forward is like criticising a cat for not being able to bark...

Ndiaye is an attcking livewire who could transform games almost singlehandedly in the way Salah, Saka, Cunha, Palmer etc do for their teams. But he'sbeing asked to operate as a second full back... is it any wonder all our attacking players look cooked by the time they get into the opposition box?

I could think of 10 negatives to say about almost all our players. But I could just as easily imagine a world where our entire first 15 are solid dependable players in a Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford etc team...

I can summarise:

1. We've failed to capitalise on the riches of the Premier League, and so investment in the playing squad has been less than that of the traditional Rich 6 over that period. There's usually a few other clubs from time to time that have money - such as Leeds, Villa, Blackburn etc.

2. We have failed to innovate. Other clubs have found clever ways to bypass the overheated transfer system to assemble quality squads. None of this is the manager's doing - it's the doing of visionary owners. Brighton are the current example - doing something along the lines of a Salzburg / Leipzig with scouting based on statistical analysis etc etc to discover underpriced talent from low cost markets - and then affiliate club / loan system etc to develop that talent.

3. We are terrified of relegation. More so than any other club. A lot of this stems from (a) the possibility of going bust and doing a Glasgow Rangers and (b) really hammering home that we're the poor relations of the RS. This creates a much more defensive mindset within the club. Other clubs have played a much riskier game - some have had their rewards but all have been relegated and some faced years and years of obscurity as a result (like Leeds and Forest).

If we can resolve 1 and 2 - then that should naturally address 3.

Invest and innovate in order to assemble a high quality squad - and the fear of relegation falls away, we can take more risks in our approach to the game and hopefully our rewards will come.

The players aren't great, they've shown that under a lot of managers, that said money squandered on Beto, OBrien, Chiemitti (I get he's got time to come good, but we need money spending on players who can improve a poor 11 now, not in 5 years time), them 3 players alone came to around £50m, I can't help but think any manager with half a brain can spend that to improve the 11 we currently have on the pitch, 2 key signings would have made a big difference.

We lose a lot of players who are out of contract this season, plus 4 go back off loan, leaving us about 12 first team players, we need a manager who will spend well and be inventive with his loan signings and possible frees.

Dyche had Danjuma, didn't use him, had Harrison and thought he was worth another punt, took Lindstrom who hasn't looked good enough, that's another 3 players who he chose and it hasn't worked out for. Only Ndaiye and Young have been worthy signings, and Timi looks one for the future.

Dyche has also failed to bring through a single youth player, despite the level of the team being very low, surely we must have 1 full back capable of pushing Myklenko or Young, or an attacking midfielder who can push Dacoure.

We need a clean slate for next season, new manager, new owners, new ground, and a mentality that we can achieve better than staying up, imo that comes from the manager, and Dyche is happy with staying in the league.