Hello, Bramley-Moore Dock

I think The Post is well worthy of promotion, as their disdain of The Echo seems to align with mine:

Bored of publishing clickbait, the Liverpool Echo moves to crush its competition

He might be if he realised the irregular pattern forms a barcode that reads "Kopites are gobshites." :-)

As for the website, I know you can disable some of these things, but the ads, pop ups and videos are relentless. I like to scour various sources across the media spectrum but the Echo is second only to the Daily Mail online in that sense. I dislike the Mail. Forget politics, it's like being preached to by your least favourite Aunty who bakes cakes for the Women's Institute.

I wondered what had happened to the Daily Post. I used to deliver that on my paper round. Post in the morning, Echo in the afternoon.

Only on Sunday, I did observe, as I walked towards town and past the Echo HQ, that the old signage of Daily Post & Liverpool Echo had been removed and replaced by "Echo". The old lettering is still visible though, so they haven't done a good job on covering it up.

My own and everyone else's bone of contention is with the Transport Links (or lack of) to and from. It's all very well saying that the Stadium hasn't yet become our official home yet, which is true, but the authorities have had plenty of time to not only foresee the issues with travel, but virtually done nothing about it.

This will essentially be a Football Venue but as has been mooted it will be used for various other events too. Visitors to Liverpool will experience the same problems, and hopefully make it known. Stable Doors and Horses spring to mind !

The article itself was a pleasant read, little we don't already know but well presented and positive with plenty of detail to please those of us bored by clickbait and a total lack of content. How often do we see a totally padded story off a one line comment with a blown up headline and no content?

So good luck to The Post... bring back the art of stories, the asking of uncomfortable questions and perhaps, dare I say it again, content! Good luck Post!

I spotted a couple of older Everton-related stories in their archive...

This lad Laurence Thompson is from The Wirral, like me (still wools?) so we'll see what he has to say.

I grinned to see the photo of the Tobacco Warehouse... still remembering my first sight of it on my first day in town, courtesy of Rob Halligan Tours. Never had any previous idea that such an edifice existed. I was fascinated.

Questions for you or one of the other historians: What was the Taylor Report, why did Goodison require halving, and how was it done? Looking around the Grand Old Lady I didn't see any indications of previous dismantlements. What was removed?

Chill, we ain't kicked a ball in there yet...

High level, the recommendations decreed that all top flight and most Football League clubs should have all seater stadiums. So for Goodison, that meant the Lower Gwladys, Bullens Road Paddock and Main Stand Enclosure terracing had to go and be repacked by seats as well the fencing, that penned us in like animals, coming down.

It reduced our capacity from over 50,000 to around 40,000.

That's how I remember it anyway. Maybe some of that work went on prior to that? The fabled "ledge" in the Gwladys Stret terrace went, where I was tied and later tied my brother to the foremost barrier with a scarf, visiting him at half time to check he was okay, give him half my sausage roll and one of those cheap orange drinks with a straw. Tighten his scarf and then back to my place not far behind him.

I don't get bored talking about the new stadium. She is simply stunning from the outside as much as the inside, and it's winding the red cousins up.

I was startled when the article asserted the previous capacity of Goodison was around 80,000... hard to imagine. But now it makes sense.

It's just that the tone you use in your post sounds very much like someone else.

A long shot but...this isn't you is it?

Link

Official attendance: 53,000, I was 15 at the time and I swear it was a lot more…

The official attendance versus what was in the ground was always debatable. We've all been that kid who was passed over the top of the turnstile through a joint effort by our dads and the Stewards!!

James, the iconic green "Everton are Magic" banner in the Gwladys Street that day. And for some reason I've never had explained, the Stars and Stripes being waved.

We should replicate both on Wednesday along with the 1878 Originals one.

I was at Goodison one Boxing Day (26th Dec for you Mike!) when we played and lost to Burnley 3-0 with a reported 75,000 rammed in. Far more than 75,000, I can tell you, as I was one of the very many kids handed down to sit on the perimeter of the pitch because it was so crowded the adults were afraid that we kids were going to be crushed.

How any true Evertonian can be bored reading about the new stadium is beyond my comprehension. I absorb everything written about it (albeit from a distance) but I will get back one day to visit, in the meantime more on BMD please!

What I noticed on their website was that almost across the road, on the way to the Pier Head, land is earmarked for "Liverpool Waters". Apparently a proposed future business, entertainment and leisure district.

The problem is the transport bosses are obsessed with "active travel" which costs the council nothing – unlike providing public transport ,which MerseyTravel complacently renege on.

Bramley-Moore Dock needs buses – not bikess or hikes.
Active Travel is a cheapskate cop-out of their duty to provide bus and train services.

What will happen when thousands of home and away fans have to walk the same streets to the city centre?

Merseytravel get 0 out of 10 for their neglect of passengers and reliance to the airy-fairy nonsense of "active travel". Bin it!

Like its sister proposal, Wirral Waters across the river, it envisaged a combination of residential, commercial, retail and leisure facilities.

Some of it has been delivered: Isle of Man cruise terminal, some (limited) residential; the Everton stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock was a new face to the proposals.

I believe Peel are seeking to amend the masterplan, reflecting a more current position. It would be good to hear from them or somebody better placed to share what the latest proposals look like. ,

That said it's all dependent on bodies private and public coming to the party and investing. Uptake thus far has clearly been limited, hence TFG starting to look at Nelson Dock and other land in the area.

Eventually, this area will come good; it may take a good while, but taking control of the land now, if TFG can, would make real commercial sense and control what surrounds the Everton Stadium.

The last point I would make on the subject of transport, I recall a monorail being proposed at one stage (nothing's happened); also a bus transit hub (nothing's happened).

The latest proposal was for a quality walkway from city centre to Everton Stadium, along the river front. Will this happen?

It has been and will be a long time in the making but, like the other dock redevelopment, it will come good in time. I guess, with Everton Stadium being there as an early catalyst, we all want to see it sooner rather than later.

How do I provide feedback to the club?

The official attendances for those games were around the 60,000 mark. I've never forgotten the crush in the confined space along Gwladys Street and Bullens Road, especially at the corner, and being carried along as a 10- or 11-year-old, feet not touching the ground, ribs being crushed, finding it hard to breathe. It was truly scary.

I know that safety standards have changed, but I am aware that lessons can get lost in time. Having match-going grandsons of 10 and 11, I am fearful of the amount of people who are going to try to pass through the dock wall at the same time, and very aware that a crowd develops a life of its own.

I take your Inter City & raise you to Pontins sharp & shiny as we called it in the 80s.

Danny #20, bet those apartments are gonna smell wonderful. 100-year-old pipe tobacco?? Sign me up.

Paul #21, most US venues relying on special game-day buses have discovered they don't work. A line of buses carrying 70 fans apiece to a stadium seating 50,000 -- at the glacial speed of jammed car traffic -- is usually an empty gesture.

In the summer of 1963, seating was installed in the lower Bullens Road underneath the Archibald Leach stand with the Paddock standing terrace at the front. That reduced the capacity to around 66,000.

The next major change was the building of the new main stand in 1969-1970 which further reduced the capacity to, I think, around 55,000.

Other alterations followed between 1987-1994 through which the conversion to an all-seater stadium was completed.

Always good to have a wise head to calm the horses. Maybe I'll be like that one day.

Now that is an important question. Has the club asked for fans feedback? The main aim of these tests for the club suits is surely to get the necessary licenses, badges, codes etc? I suspect that they were not launched for any sort of highly useful and acutely relevant fans feedback. Am I wrong?

The other excuse is there is no landing stage... it's a dock!!! Or the water isn't deep enough... really? A ferry service before and after games would be very popular and a unique and iconic added extra. Whether it's viable or not, who knows… but has it been looked at?

Also, the fan walkway through the docks that also allows driverless electric shuttle vehicles on match days and for concerts would also be a great addition.

Hearing Rotherham speak, you wonder if any of these ideas have been properly examined in detail.

There's definitely an issue with the large tidal range in the Mersey, so you need a floating landing stage or some other technical solution to let passengers embark and disembark safely at or near Bramley-Moore Dock. You can't expect them to shin up and down ladders like Houti pirates...

I haven't checked the map but a walkway would probably need at least one new bridge near where the bascule bridge is that required the farcical stop-and-go control issues. Was the free flow of pedestrians prevented for load reasons? Or congestion?

[I can only see a height restriction on the road signage — no weight restriction.]

Or the danger of them all jumping up and down in unison to see if they could cause a resonance failure?

And it was the same all the times we played with those huge attendances with the Burnley game, Blackburn in the cup in the fifties, the games John Rafferty and Peter mentioned, Wolves on another Boxing Day, Blackpool on a Good Friday and many more.

But you got used to them as you got older; Maine Road after a 1956 cup tie was frightening just getting out; Hillsborough for the Villa replay; Molineux watching Liverpool play for a vital league game, a night match – I went with Liverpool mates to see the bastards get beat – they won but that night was pure bedlam with a gauge gate getting kicked open and doors, toilet windows getting smashed to let plenty into the ground via the toilet.

Even before the grounds were made all seating, I had long gone to sitting in the stand and watching with relative comfort, yet loads of fellas my age age said they preferred watching from the terraces — getting knocked from pillar to post. Fuck that for a game of soldiers!

Everton scored at the Park End but we didn't see it because of the fog but word got passed around the ground that Davy Hickson had scored. I left before the end with Everton still winning to catch the football bus.

When I got home my dad said good win 4-1!! Charlton scored a last-minute equaliser and the game went to extra time with Everton winning – I never saw any goals.

I have written about this before so apologies for the repetition but had to put it in seeing as posts talking about big crowds. Quite common in those days.

I was at the Burnley replay you mention in the Bullens Road Paddock as I couldn't get a ticket for my usual Goodison Rosad terrace spot. Memories are now very hazy of anything such a long time ago but I can confirm that it was chocka block everywhere.

The 'estimated' attendance I heard was 'in the region' of 73,000 to 75,000. How close that was to the actual I certainly don't know, but it sure was far in excess of the 60,000 mentioned.

Those were the good old days.

When the first artist's impression of the new stadium was published, there was the word 'Everton in huge white letters (I would have preferred blue) on the south side of the stadium.

Currently, there is nothing telling the world who we are; we know, but many perhaps tourists don't.

Also, let's have a huge Everton crest on the side of the stadium, perhaps this will happen prior to the new season.

Also, I realize that naming rights may have something to do with this but we need to get our name on that magnificent stadium.

Answers or suggestions welcome.

I like the idea of somehow replicating the crests on either end of the Main Stand at Goodison. And find one of the Littlewoods clocks to stand in the plaza!!

It won't be a case of the finished article on Day One, just like any stadium, it will be development, finishing touches and additions over time.

Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say.

Especially under the stands.

That thought remains in my mind, taking into account that maybe times have changed somewhat and the cost of construction etc etc and the limited space at the Bramley-Moore Dock site and so on… but still it seems a bit short sighted all in all.

Apparently, according the architect, it has the ability to be made into a 62,000 stadium (rail seating if allowed in the future) and based on need.

But surely doing this in future would be more expensive than doing it with the initial build? Given that 53,000 is a good uplift (revenue wise from 40,000) but surely the evidence was there from the recent past to suggest that 53,000 wasn't the right size. I'm still scratching my head on that one though.

Thoughts and reasons why it wasn't done initially?

I read last week that Everton are struggling to sell all of the corporate and expensive seats. I don't know how true that is…

Rationales I've heard include:

Ticket prices will be higher so may price some out.

The location is further away so harder to get to.

For atmospheric reasons, they'd rather have a full house every week than a partialy empty stadium some weeks.

I've got the Littlewoods Clock face from the Gwladys Street end in my back shed, albeit slightly damaged. With support of Everton Supporters Trust, we approached Everton about 7 years ago when trying to get Lottery Funding and needed verification from the club that it was authentic.

They told us not to bother with the Lottery and that they would pay to get it refurbished and located by St Luke's Church once they had completed the disability improvements and access in the main stand. George McKane even came to my house to do an interview with Radio Merseyside.

I've tried to contact the club loads of times since and never even had the courtesy of a return call. I have even tried through the Everton Heritage Society in St Luke's this season with no luck and have been to the Liver Buildings three times in the last month and left my mobile number on reception asking for a call back regarding the Littlewoods Clock but again no response.

If you Michael or anyone else on the forum have a direct contact in the club, please let me know as I would also love to see it on the Plaza.

I'm all for a bright new future and not living in the past, but there's I'm also a believer in heritage and respecting history.

Feel free to message or call. 07966007546.

dannyefc26@gmail.com

Have you considered contacting the original Everton Fan Forum.

They meet with Everton Representatives monthly.
I think they are usually at St Luke's on matchdays.

The Littlewoods clock! I knew one was still about somewhere. This is a must do, mobilise all hands, the FAB for one...or else wtf are they for.

With all due respect to St Luke's, it has to be at BMD, at The Pump House maybe, but it's got to be done.

"When Arsenal moved to the Emirates Stadium, the Highbury Clock was moved as well, and now resides on the outside of the stadium.

Location:

The clock is located on the outside of the stadium, facing the Clock End Bridge.

Significance:

The clock serves as a symbolic reminder of Arsenal's time at Highbury and the stadium's history"

#metoo, says Clocky McClockface.

At least that was the distinct impression I got as he had to have a crane lift it over his house.

A clock face in a shed sounds a lot smaller than that to me.

Or some of the Timeline from around Goodison, with one notable exception, that being returned to the canal.

Also, regarding the expensive seats, which I assume are also part of the corporate seats… well, I don't know exactly where they are located in the stadium, but looking at the stadium planner on the club website, would you believe that there are only 24 season tickets available to purchase!!

I think today is the last day for all existing season ticket holders and those successful from the waiting list to buy one. I think there is going to be 24 (or less) lucky people from the waiting list receiving an email from the club in the next couple of days saying they can purchase a season ticket.

Also interesting to see that the entire blocks above the away sections are still showing as “Available”. So I think these will be seats that will be sold on a match-by-match basis, or made available to away teams who require more tickets for cup games.

Recently, Dan Meis has said he wasn't sure there was enough room to build the stadium on the site. Also, there were planning regulations that limited the height of the allowed buildings.

Rob, I suspect that section above the away fans will not be sold to season ticket holders. I expect that is the area that will be used when we have to increase the capacity for away fans, eg, FA Cup matches. Today we expand the away section along the Bullens Road and season ticket holders have to be re-seated.

It was on what appeared to be a ‘sensible' website and not a sensational clickbait article. But I read so much about Everton that I can't remember which I'm afraid.

It may mean a continued struggle for tickets, but I'd rather have a packed stadium than one dotted with empty seats, which can take away the atmosphere.

I did think that the capacity could increase with safe standing, but I don't think it is designed with that in mind as the seats would have to come out in those areas, to allow more in.

Thinking very long term, we don't want to end up in the same position we were in with Goodison, unable to build new stands because of the tight footprint.

However, I'm not sure this would be a such a huge problem at Bramley-Moore Dock as there is room on the east side, and the club are looking at buying Nelson Dock too.

Well, thanks to all of you who have offered various views on why we didn't build a larger capacity stadium from Day One so to speak. We will never know why the ‘Brains' at the Club, and I use that word a bit tongue in cheek; I have to include Moshiri in that description if you know what I mean.

They maybe erred on the side of caution as they didn't know if we would still be a Premier League team next season and the empty seats (lots) could have put a real damper on things.

Maybe… or maybe not. I remember when I was a teenager using the bus to get to the games at Goodison when our centre-forward Dave Hickson would often get on the same bus at Old Roan on his way to Goodison on match days. This was in the days when we were all, footballers included, still getting over the war.

Money was tight. Football was very popular. It was a relief from the everyday slog and darkness that the war had brought. You didn't hear too much about money being tight at football clubs at the top level. Maybe it was or maybe it wasn't. I don't know.

Fast forward not so many years and, lo and behold, we have Kevin Mirallas rolling up to training in his gold coloured Bentley and negotiating his next contract for mega bucks and then being picky if the club decided to sell him to a club he didn't fancy! Methinks that the pendulum had swung a bit too far in the opposite direction from the Dave Hickson days.

This all came about as a result of television in the main with their buckets of money which they dispensed to the clubs. The players, quite naturally, decided they would like a share of this manna from heaven.

So our ‘small' stadium maybe is the right size, all things considered, but I'm not sure that the man in the street is going to get his love for the game back again as it was when I started watching all those years ago.

Money, money, money – it's a rich man's world.

Namesake Paul, I hate to keep using the same example, but the German club I follow, Schalke, has an all seated capacity of over 54,000 for when they host international matches. For league matches, when they remove the seating in the all standing areas, they can accommodate over 62,000. I am sure there are other examples out there.

A bit of logistics involved and those buying season tickets in those areas would need to do so with that in mind, but it can be done without extending.

Seats don't have to be removed, they simply fold up and I remember asking at the time how this would affect season ticket holders, and who would make up the additional spectators in those areas, walk ups possibly?

I'm sure that, if regulations permit in the future, there can be a retrofit where seats would be taken out and replaced with rail seating in other areas, but again, season ticket holder issues could cause restrictions.

Otherwise I don't see much scope for expansion, even with Nelson Dock being available. Enlarging the footprint on that side could be done if the height restrictions are removed, but increasing the height of that stand would make the stadium look odd. A purely aesthetic 'restriction', not technical, but not something we want to be doing in the first few years I'd suggest. Dan Meis would have a fit!!

In terms of expansion, I'm talking 30 years or whatever down the line if stands needing rebuilding etc (if the world lasts that long). For now, it's fine.

Eric 45 - It's not the whole clock just the clock face. It was badly damaged when I retrieved it from a skip at the back of the Springfield Pub in the '80s when it was removed from Goodison. I have sent a picture to Danny who my be able to upload onto TW.

The attendance was 77,920 according to reports, it was a mad house. Neville and I spent most of the match trying to stay alive. We were in the Gwladys Street end, no Boys Pen crap for us!

Dave Hickson scored the winning goal with blood pouring down his face. I still can visualize that goal, great memories and it will be sad to see us leaving Goodison Park. I spent many happy days there in my youth.

Having said that, I'm looking forward to the new ground. I hope, at the age of 85, I can remain healthy long enough to visit it from here in the USA.

Tickets for the Rugby League ‘Ashes' on 1 November are now available. I've just bought two at £35 each.

I quite like Rugby League but, more importantly, for the money, it's a great way of seeing the new stadium, pretty much fresh out of the box.