Perhaps we can now escape the dark shadow of Anfield?

If (massive 'if') I wasn't absolutely obsessed with Everton, I wouldn't bother at all with the Premier League.

And it's mid-August – no football should start until September. I've quoted in part Bobby there and I have to say, I agree with every word he says.

I came up with a working title but let me know if you think of something better.

It's 5 weeks until we play them and I hadn't given it a moments thought until now as, like most of us, I'm more focused on us dismantling Leeds tomorrow night.

In fairness to Bobby, I kind of get what he's saying. It's one of the reasons why we need to retire that ‘Grand Old Team' song as even that references them.

The rot started in the early 70’s with the mental decline of Harry Catterick, continued with the hopeless Billy Bingham, had a short lived up tick with the gormless Gordon Lee. A bright, brilliant moment under Howard and ever since, just a slow, steady decline.

I don’t know if TFG will get us back to where we belong. It’s not just splashing the cash, as Moshiri found out, but changing the mentality at everyone at BMD.

But perhaps we need to use those 5 weeks to totally change the mindset in the club and go there on the back of a fantastic start to the season! Yeh!!!

I shall send this to David Moyes so he can pin t up in the changing room…

It was an off the cuff post in which I threw out a handful of many Everton related frustations that have been rattling around in my head for a while. The post may or may not adequately convey my thoughts.

In the main, I feel there has been a fairly obvious decades-long cultural malaise at Everton. The derby is the best example of it.

Your first paragraph is juvenile and utterly deluded, by the way. Check our post-Shankly record in the fixture.

The problem of rank defeatism and an inherent loser culture is undeniable. The evidence is irrefutable. It exists in respect of all fixtures. In relation to everything. We have become a club that when the pressure is on, we fold. We are "Spursy". In fact, we are way more Spursy than Spurs.

What I want to do is highlight it and establish how we can change it.

Until we accept how far we have fallen, how deep the rot is, we can never recover. It's better than people deluding themselves that the malaise is only "supposed" to exist and everything is ok, a la Kenwright.

Historically, it is generally the arrival of one man with immense the drive and zeal who changes things. (Busby Shankly,Clough, Pep, Jose etc and yes I know they all had money as well).

People who are genuinely going to be leaders in their craft. Medical excellence, talent spotters, academy coaches, coaches that tactically see the game differently and are able to squeeze every last drop out of the players.

Delivering this on a long term basis is also the challenge. Brighton have signed brilliantly, but post the inevitable sale of Mitoma, Mintah & Baleba, I think they're done. Similar with Brentford losing Wissa, Mbeumo & Toney. You can outperform for a period, but someone richer will always copy or steel that IP at some point.

Credit therefore is probably looking at Forest and Villa. I won't be a lonely in disliking the Greek owner, but he's recruited top people in the background and on the pitch. Villa have also done well, but they seemingly lack top sparkle after missing on champions league and psr issues. Both will remain in the top 10, challenging the so called top 6 with Newcastle.

For Everton it will be years before we see real change. The player quality scouted has been improved. Getting them over the line has been a challenge, but let's be honest, evertons name has been mud after the financial mismanagement, psr issues, brushes with organisations like 777, dyer football from poor players & coaches. Selling on the back of thst is not an overnight thing.

12 months time the new structure will be in place & settled. Moyes will have them comfortably mid table, playing better football than we've seen in person since early Silva. The academy is now begining to pick up promising kids, with the offer that there is a pathway for the best. Thats a long time since that's been in place. Ive told the story before of the academy telling the parents that evertons biggest success was selling their players. Hopefully that's now cone to an end, and that mentality has been shown the door.

Patience is short at Everton, and its hard to ask fans for more. But if we can give it 3 years to allow green shoots to form, I do think we can break the cycle of the last 10 years. Whether that means ever challenging and winning titles is impossible to know. But it's a start.

New badge. Don't even ask the fans. Just do it.

Hammer Elton John's I Guess That's Why We Call it the Blues. Which we should sing. A lot. We won't, of course, as many of our fans are obsessed with "kopite behaviour".

This is the point. We have become so spooked by them, so determined to only define ourselves as the opposite of them, that we have lost our identity and become...nothing.

In the 90's When Skies are Grey -which I used to love btw - even used to discourage the wearing of colours and a "kopite-esque show of wool" (scarfs ffs). In other words, supporting!

We turned in on ourselves. We became insular and perverse. Weird and quite honestly small time. We drove ourselves into a cul de sac from which we are yet to escape.

Bobby, I'm 53, approaching 54 and have witnessed more derby defeats than victories. Ironically, a lot of my best derby memories have come at Anfield, not Goodison.

It has become a mentality thing, but for some strange reason, it's never got to me. I don't go into any derby fearing them or being submissive. Why should we?

I will comment on them as much as I will any other team, but tend to leave the derby in the build up to the match itself.

Players always talked about how difficult it was coming to Goodison and how loud and intimidating the crowd was. Dan Meis even made much noise about trying to replicate that at Bramley Moore. I must admit that such comments always surprised me as my own experiences are that our support is quite brittle. We start out loud but swiftly go quiet if things aren’t going our way, often being outsung by visiting fans.

I remember Sylvester Stallone trying to whip the fans up at half-time (against Coventry, I think) so that he could record it and use it in one of the Creed movies. In typical Evertonian style, we weren’t having any of it cos we’d been shite in the first half, and the resultant ‘cheers’ were half-arsed and quite embarrassing really.

Colin too, apart from these words

" not the fans who have accepted continued mediocrity".

Here I'd have to disagree. Its clear that the vast majority were not bothered about anything other than Premiership status for way too long.

Long gone were the expectations for silverware. Long gone any knowledge of european football. Long gone any hope of any challange other than struggle.

Acceptance that the crooks in charge, right back to our most successful era, took cash out via their holdings, failing to put cash in or an input that wasnt free, season after season.

The lowering of acceptable performance off the pitch and most certainly on it. Reducing quality of players everywhere. Selling assets off to recruit dross (via certain favoured self interested agents) bred mediocrity and mindsets. Fans were enshrined into a programme where success was never going to happen. Because of falsely inflated hardship, lies and self centred power mongering, deceiving the blue world into believing he was looking for investment year after year, decade after decade. To the detriment of everything Everton. Without a care, cutting off communication to those who asked. That fat false smugness. The worst owner, chairman, in the clubs history. Best narcissist. When open wounds fester without treatment or being completely severed all that is inevitable is death.

So many trusted. So many accepted. And the rot started years before that dreadful man. He just took advantage.

Recovery ?

So long as the past 4 decades + are held up as a continual reminder of the sickness and disease that those with power infected the club with.

Its tougher than ever to recover.

There is a hardcore caucus of clubs that have gripped the domestic and european golden goose for that long no one can get past their shields of unfairness and inequality.

Rules have changed everywhere to benefit them

Fifa, uefa, PL all want the same thing. A league of elite.

Everton are not considered and any thought that we might be, evaporated way before several generation of incredible blues fans were even born.

Our only way to the top is usurping the barbed wire bureaucracy designed to keep us well away, by reinventing the game of football. Smash the indoctrinated coaching badge way. And for that we need a regime change from grass roots where the failings are still endemic, up to and including the players, manager and TFG.

This will take time.

Whether it will be done, we shall see.

COYB

Busby developed his academy players. Shanks drilled into his team a winner’s mentality and Cloughie, well he won the title with Derby bloody County and Nottingham sodding Forest. Two footballing nobodies.

Yes they spent money in later years but they all started from a very low base and it was shrewd buying and selling and player development which made them successful.

Plus hard bastard discipline and a simple approach.

I've no idea how decent a player Ben Doak is. He's being touted for £25M. He played once or maybe twice for Celtic, the same for that lot. Decent spell at Boro in the Championship. £25M.... if I didn't dislike them so much, I'd applaud them.

Still, we may get a Lucky Bag and a bottle of Tizer as a sell-on fee for Broadhead going to Wrexham.

It's an incredible, and extremely unlikely achievement to have been such a poorly run club over a period of 35 years and remain at the top table; no one else has come close! Unfortunately, our unlikely survival served only to maintain the status quo.

We can only hope that our new ownership will finally break the cycle; too early to tell yet. I can't see how they can fail to be an improvement on what has come before, though.

It's not about psychology and mindset, it's about professionalism at all levels of the club that has been sadly lacking for decades. Songs and badges are as irrelevant as our neighbours.

Why? Because we had people within the club who wanted to emulate them, and because these people had been winners themselves in their playing career, they knew just how to do it.

The only other time we have got under their skin was in the mid-nineties. Why? Because we had a scouse manager who also knew how to win, and more importantly he knew them better than they knew themselves.

Fuck Liverpool — concentrate on Everton, which is why Tarkowski's "ask no fucking questions" tackle on Mac Alister is hopefully going to be the start of us having a completely different attitude against whoever we play in the future.

Whilst I would never want to be them, it doesn't mean that they are not the yardstick, because anyone who knows anything about winning knows that you don't get anywhere if you haven't got the desire and an attitude that means that you don't give a fuck for anyone who is going to try and stop you winning.

A great post, Bobby, and also one that didn't really need to mention those bastards, because football is just like life and the most important thing we can do is get our own house in order first before we can hopefully (my predictive text just wrote hopelessly🤷‍♂️) move on to better things.

Evertonians have been complicit, Colin (the acceptance of Kenwright, that allegedly transparent vote, where the majority voted to go to Kirkby) and we are a completely different set of fans from the ones that used to throw the cushions onto the pitch when I first started attending Goodison Park.

We accept not being ready for the start of the Premier League season as if it's normal, even though it's totally unprofessional and not befitting of the club we once were. No wonder we don't win anymore.

TFG appear shrewd business people, running the club on a sound operating model. Bottom line will be key for any owner. Your in business to be profitable. Whether they share the same views as us fans wanting to win trophies, remains to be seen.

Going back to cultural and mindset changes, that is something that TFG will need to install over time.

To date, and just in my opinion, only the Moores family have set the bar high in the time i've supported this club, but no surprises they also had involvement across the park as well in that time. Vested interest in both club perhaps.

Anyone born post 1990 has never experienced a successful Everton team (and I'm not talking a measly FA Cup win) so of course they have been accustomed to mediocrity.

I honestly believe this generation are our most loyal fans. Who else would put up with this crap? Hats off to any and every Everton fan under the age of 30.

If I was 5 again today, I don't know if I would choose Everton to be my team.

All the other posters have mentioned things I would have done. However, only two things to note.

In this para 'No one appears to have twigged that the '09 defeat appears to have irreparably damaged morale regarding the fixture. We have barely won one since, even at home where we are 10 years without a win.'

Is that the 2012 semi-final defeat?

Didn't we win 2-0 at Goodison in 2024?

We need to at least celebrate some victories.

I think Everton have missed a trick by not employing some of these winners in some capacity in the past, a la Reid, Southall and, in modern times, Rooney.

Talking about Rooney, he may be painful to watch as a TV Pundit but he had a winning mentality. Although his managerial career is suspect, surely his experience as an attacker could be put to use as a Specialist Attacking Coach.

I think it has to start on the field.

Careful, strategic recruitment and tons of patience required. I just hope this is not another false dawn.

Like Bobby says, it's in the fabric of this club and the we appoint a “knives to a gunfight” loser Moyes mentality again to this club. I had hoped he'd be gone in the summer but here we go again with another loser.

West Ham European Conference League win apart, he's won fuck all for us or any other club he was with. He got lucky once… never to be repeated.

I should have stated that, “by those who should have known better”, with regards William, and it's why I try and educate as many young people as possible about the dangers of a government that wants to do away with cash and have total control with digital currency!

I often think that Wayne Rooney is a waste to football by taking the easy option and earning his money by talking about rather than still being involved in the grind of day-to-day football, Steve.

Rooney hasn't been a very good manager, but neither was one of his earliest mentors, Colin Harvey. Harvey was by all accounts an outstanding football coach, something I think Rooney would also be if he still had the desire and the inclination.

If I was David Moyes, I'd have been on the phone to Rooney the minute I got the Everton job because he his a born winner and also an Evertonian who comes from a family of Evertonians.

Our manager got us the whole-season equivalent of 62 points last year and (in my view) we played much more attacking football. All this was managed with the same players (plus Alcaraz) that Dyche had. How about a bit of positivity for once and actually getting behind our manager and players (whoever they are)?

You never know, we might actually win on Monday night and our new players may perform. We may also sign a few more players before the window closes and make some progress up the table this season. Glass half-full for me at this stage! Let's see if it is still the case on Monday night.

Derby days I can't relax. I hate the Red Shite with a venomous passion. I need help!!

I shook my head and told a Liverpudlian that he didn't know much about football when he gave me that standard bollocks about the Premier League needing Everton. Barring injury to Branthwaite, I think we are a mid-table team, and I think Moyes has already proved this since he took the job.

Can we go higher? With the right signings, then I'm confident the answer will be Yes.

Some great posts on here from Everton fans who love Everton, but a fighting Everton who believe they are going out to win not just there as fodder for their opponents.

Winners, managers and players who truly who have the guts to get out there and have a professional attitude in trying to win in every game not just against Liverpool, fuck them, who are they! should be the attitude which the way it was under Catterick, Kendall/ Harvey and Royle who took great pleasure in winding the bastards up, before, during and definitely after the game.

It will take a few years, which has already been said, but it can happen —if we have the winning personnel on and off field let’s see how these owners shape—- they are here to make money — I hope they make brewsters while making us happy following a team that fears no one.

As for Moyes, he has 2 years left on his contract. I expect that he will stabilise us more on the pitch and we will be knocking on the door of Europe, if not qualifying, in that time.

I would think by then we will be a much more attractive proposition and we will get a new manager then. We could (and should) be doing far better than this, though, and I fully expect us to do so in the next few years.

I want my two lads to see us win something soon – both in their mid-twenties and never seen the glory years!

That post sits well with me, Dave @33. We shouldn't be afraid of anyone and they are just another team we have to face in a league of 20. Increased rivalry? Yes, but I leave that for derby day.

We won't win every game, but the is no excuse for going out with a desire to win, whoever the opposition are.

I don't think most of us have a losers mentality, but wishing for something doesn't make it happen — it takes much more than that.

I think we all know why the Reds' squad is better than ours so I won't go into all the historic and recent reasons.

Suffice to say it's very very difficult to come from where we are now to reach the top and stay there.

Funny, this thread is practically entirely anti-Moyes. Yet, the reason Martinez was sacked for the 'lowly position of 12th' was because it was so far below the standards that Moyes had achieved with no backing whatsoever.

We beat the RS 2-0 in April 2024 under Sean Dyche.

I agree about the mentality towards that lot.
But why? Just go out there and give them a game.
Make sure they can’t walk after the game.
The Tarkowski challenge on that home alone gobshite was a great example off how to stick it on them.
Fear no team. Especially those media darlings.
Do us fans fear their fans? Definitely not.
The same applies to the club/team.
They’re disgusting human beings who everyone wants to beat.

The semi-final surrender against L'pool was in 2012.

And yes we have won a colossal one home derby match in the last 10 years, in 2024. WOW!

So well done to you, John Raferty #39
Instead of being a smart-arse, address the substance of the matter.

That whole Club professionalism has been sadly absent from our Club and we have got to face up to the consequences that for most part we have been a basket case. Whether things will change now with the new owners and the new ground who knows ? But the collective consequences is that the Liverpool squad is by every measure considerably better than ours. It's a far cry from my school days when as kids we picked our Everpool or Liverton teams which always consisted of 5 or 6 players from each team.

As we approach our first game tomorrow we don't look like the team is in great shape so another year of struggles looks likely. Hopefully things will get better but our recent recruitment process still looks patchy and for another year at least we will, I expect, finish a long way behind our neighbours.

I commented on here around that time that a "cowards mentality runs through the club". It wasn't just that we lost, it was the way we knuckled under and surrendered a great chance.

We crumbled, not under the weight of the opposition, but under the pressure of being favourites and in the lead.

We're fine at Goodison, we could use the crowd to get us over the line but away from home we were helpless.

I still think about that game sometimes, it really left a mark on me, but 2016 was even worse. We were well on top against United and clearly the better team in the second half but still found a way to lose.

We even went 1 up away at City in the LC semi final and managed to mess that up too! Two semi finals in the same season and two great chances squandered.

There is only one reason for that. Mr Bill Shankley

Liverpool were shite at that time, really shite. The culture, players, apathy, everything was wrong
Shankley went in and binned all the crap, forced the Club to change and more important changed the mindset and mentality of every person at that club

Had Shankley not been appointed those arseholes would have been on par with Sheffield Wednesday

But typical of that club, when Shankley had made them what they are, a worldwide franchise, he, was binned.
There’s a surprise!

They improved under Shankley definitely but it wasn’t ‘til they gave him what they had never given to any other Liverpool manager —- money—that they were able gain promotion with the signings of Ian Saint John and Ron Yeats along with Gordon Milne being the catalyst for future success, after promotion they made another great signing Stevenson the ex Rangers player quickly followed by Thompson from Preston, Shankley promoted a lad from the reserves who had been there for a while Gerry Byrne, Morrissey would have followed if we hadn’t stepped in and stole him for buttons Roger Hunt and The Flying Pig, Tommy Lawrenson were already there along Alf Arrowsmith who scored plenty before injury ruined his career, Everton matched them while Catterick, every bit as good as Shankley, was manager until ill health spoiled that spell.

Paisley took over from the Scotsman and many Liverpool fans from that era will tell you he was a better manager than the man he helped to start the reformation at Anfield, he certainly won more than the Scotsman.

Sadly we never carried on the excellent work started by Sir John Moore’s who helped both clubs financially and some of his relations took over Liverpool while some would have absolutely nothing to do the man who bought Everton and didn’t have a clue how to progress them but knew how to keep ownership and we all, well a lot of us, regret the day he ever darkened our doors.

I agree about our fans maybe creating that extra pressure, although the obvious contradiction is that we have done a lot better against them at Goodison, rather than Anfield.

When I said that Joe Royle, knew them better than they know themselves, it was because of how easy he found it to get under their skin, because he knows how bitter they are, imo.

The more they wanted to beat us, I think the harder they found it to do so, is how I remember the derby games under Joe Royle, and it was why I felt confident when we last beat them under Dyche.

We had just beat Forest, which meant that the pressure had suddenly come off our supporters because our team was suddenly safe from relegation, and I believe this took a lot of nervous energy out of our fans?

It would end up getting boring but I’d honestly play them every week, especially if I was lucky enough to be on the pitch.

The term free hit is normally associated with losers, so whenever we play Liverpool, one thought that never comes into my own personal mind, is that it’s a free hit, although in the game I mentioned above, I was glad that this is how our crowd seemed to approach that particular game, and it didn’t half seem to take the pressure out of the stadium, imho!

Tony, that’s an interesting perspective and I thought we looked quietly confident and assured in that 2-0 win. They missed a few glorious chances so perhaps there is something in what you say,

And the irony of them waving half Everton-half-Liverpool scarves at us.

We are embarking on a journey in a stadium built on the breathtaking banks of the river.

We'll fecking build a team to match.

I remember talking to a few of my American relatives from my mother’s side, at a family funeral. They had been to Anfield, for the fa cup game, when Pickford dropped another last minute clanger, allowing Van Dyke, to get in front of him and score a last minute winner in that cup tie.

I didn’t know they were reds, but they said the highlight of the game for them all was when Sigurdson equalised for Everton, because they had never seen a crowd celebrate a goal, with such joy in their lives. Google it, it definitely shows you what it is to be a blue!

We start clawing our way back on Monday, we do it 1 game at a time and if it takes a decade then it takes a decade - but we do it.

I’m not so tentative with regards our mindset, I remember coming out of the stadium of light when we had just secured a semifinal against Liverpool at Wembley, and to this day,I genuinely think it was the finest support I think I’ve ever seen an Everton team receive.

Every single Evertonian in the crowd seemed to be rejoicing even more because we knew we had got a chance to beat Liverpool, in a massive game, and the only picture I had in my head was of the old Guinness advert of the time, that used to have a big harp, with the words “Believe” running through it.

I asked my mate to ask his good mate Alan Stubbs, if he would ask our manager if I could do the teamtalk, because I had an opinion that the only thing that could beat us was fear, and that’s what I personally thought beat us in the end.

Kendall and Royle, are the only two managers that didn’t seem to fear Liverpool, imo, plus Carlo Ancellotti, who didn’t wait around for long. Who else have I missed from that list?

You heard it here first.

And that's why it would never happen. Remember, it was Bobby Brown Shoes who invited HK to Finch Farm - his first visit. Moyes never wanted any ghosts of success anywhere near him.

Back to Bobby's excellent post - the mentality across the park pervades top to bottom. How many times have they gone into the last 5 minutes of games losing, even injury time - and turned it around? The 2nd leg against Barcelona. Truly depressing.

The trouble is their fans truly believe "it's our year", or "we'll do this" - we call them delusional, but the reality is they've seen it before. As much as we have with late capitulations etc; they expect their outcome as much as we expect ours.

Despite the occasional bell-endry behaviour of supporters (see the recent case in point versus Bournemouth - because the fan has been identified, operation Brush it Under the Carpet is in full swing), neutrals seem to love them, whereas the prospects for us in pre-season predictions? "Maybe this will be the year the turd flushes".

Tourist FC now have fans in the city who are unable to afford to go to the game (this is a general issue). But they are consoled by watching on TV a winning team. We have fans that bemoan the cost of tickets, the overall increase in costs associated with the new stadium, etc. Fuck it I've had to sign up for the Forever Blue thing (£60 or 2 minutes of Grealish's wages) just so I stand a chance of getting a ticket on my twice yearly visit to the UK!

The club needs to change from top to bottom, that includes all of us.

There can be many reasons for this but ultimately only really one true answer, FEAR ALWAYS COMES FROM WITHIN.

Great post Matt, I hadn’t read it before I replied to Si, but I totally agree that our club, has got to change from top to bottom, and the whole fabric and current demeanour has got to change.

I wouldn’t want to be them I say, but it doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be the yardstick, I also say. They win because they hate losing, and the last time I can remember Everton having a player who truly hated losing, was a very long time ago.

Peter Reid, went awol, rather than get on a coach with Liverpool, after we inexplicably lost the double to them in 1986, but Peter Reid, demanded everything, and was such an ultra competitive footballer, who had an inbuilt desire TO FUCKING WIN

I saw a comment from Neville Southall recently despairing about an attitude that regarded avoiding relegation, finishing in the top half etc as an achievement. Nev’s view was that every player should start pre-season focused on winning things - if not why bother?

The first was from his second debut when he scored the winner versus Stoke, which was played on a very warm day.

With Everton winning, Leighton Baines, got kicked with a few minutes left and he got straight back up to try and run it off. Rooney shook his head and was telling Leighton to go down, which is just basic professionalism, when you’re trying to see a game out.

The other story that was told, was that he went into FinchFarm on the Monday before we played Liverpool (the beginning of Derby Week) and he said the place was like a morgue.

I’ve said I was made up with Tarkowski’s tackle at Anfield, and the first thing I thought when he flew in like a lunatic, was what Carragher, had said about the Everton players, of his generation.

They wanted to talk to us and be our mate, before the game? (If this isn’t showing fear, then it’s definitely not how Carragher allegedly felt) Not no fucking more hopefully and not just against Liverpool, because this should apply to every single game that we play.

So I can't work out whether Bobby Thomas agrees with my point or not? The one about being ruthless and rediscovering the club's identity by playing to win. Not to exist and be fucking nice and rolling over.

Rooney also said the attitude of the club was lacking – when he joined Man Utd and they drew a game, he asked where they were going out and got a bollocking. No more being also-rans.

Joe Murray, another Everton fanatic, although born in Dublin, telling Jim Pearson after a Derby game: “ What the fuck was you doing coming on the pitch laughing and talking with those bastards? You'd never play for Everton again if I was in charge of the team!”

Sadly, Joe is no longer with us but what a true genuine Bluenose he was.

Are they taking the piss? Seriously, £25M for someone who may have only played one or two Carabao Cup games for them???

Oh, it's okay, he played for Liverpool, so he must be good!!

Play off the shoulders of the centre-backs and get them turning and running towards their own goal.

I couldn’t believe we got a draw, when we were robbed of a trip to Wembley, by that horrible welsh twat Clive Thomas, (they were my own thoughts at seven years of age!) because after listening to you slagging Pearson, it sounded like we would have been better starting the game with ten men!

We have seen some shite down the years, maybe we need to lighten the mood and all start picking our worst ever Everton eleven!

On second thoughts, nobody would agree and it would just lead to a load of arguing!

I could carry on but I'm shaking my head like a Polaroid picture!