Steward’s Enquiry

Everton deserve better.

Moyes threw that game. There was no serious attempt to win that game.

Not into taxi territory as yet, but I'm willing to throw a quid in to get the pot started for the future.

We conceded two poor goals and neither of our totemic strikers looked close to scoring at the other end.

Garner was outstanding but others simply illustrated why we needed new players.

Plus our manager is bang average.

He now has a free run with league games only between now and the third round of the FA Cup in early January to garnish enough points to push for a top-half finish.

Blow this and he won't be seeing a second season at BMD.

Same old, same old, on here. If all else fails, blame the manager. Moyes needs to take his share of brickbats for last night's game, along with the players, that is. If last night told us anything, it's that we don't have a squad capable of challenging for anything meaningful. Other than Coleman at left-back, strange, I didn't have a particular issue with the starting line-up.

We've lost momentum and need to pick it up again now. Moyes has his work cut out with that. I'm sure TFG will be letting him get on with it, not looking for a replacement.

We also need to potentially lose some players in January if Moyes is not going to give them a game or thinks they're not up to it, and identify replacements.

He played a virtual full-strength side at home against Mansfield. Doesn't make any sense other than not really wanting to progress.

Another wasted journey by Evertonians; yes, reimburse them.

We don't play again until Monday night.
We haven't won a major trophy in 30 years, and this competition was arguably our best chance.

His post-match comments only added insult to injury. I'm furious. This was a game to start our strongest XI, get the job done, and then rotate if needed. Instead, we handed the initiative to the opposition.

McNeil: Completely ineffective.
Coleman: Hasn't been at the required level for 2 years.
Travers: Poor performance, and clearly doesn't instill confidence in the back line.

Moyes's decision-making is infuriating. He hasn't evolved. We saw the same outdated approach at Anfield — bringing a knife to a gunfight — and now we've handed the worst team in the Premier League a morale boost and a win.

Last night's loss is down to his piss poor team selection so who else is there to blame?

Wolves have lost all 5 league games; scored 3 and conceded 12.

Had we scored first last night the tie was over.

We don't play again until Monday evening so there was no need to rest players.

Here's a novel idea - play your strongest 11 to have a go in a cup competition that could give our incredible fans something to celebrate.

We've never won a thing with Moyes and never will.

It's down to Moyes and the players. This and the Leeds game are the worst performances we've had since he came back.

As he's otherwise done pretty well with the cards he's been dealt, I'm cutting him a bit of slack.

I objected to the overreaction of the article saying 'Moyes Out'. I'm not saying he's immune from criticism.

I mean he had to bring the outfield players on anyway to try and salvage the game!

People are justifiably angry at yet another early exit from a cup competition.

Personally, I hold him accountable for us getting dumped out last night in a game that we should have won.

I said elsewhere I think rotating some players was the right thing to do. They need to have minutes somewhere to have a chance of being effective when they're needed in the Premier League.

What is concerning is that those players didn't take their opportunity to perform. That's worrying, either they'd not had the right instructions, or they frankly couldn't be arsed to stake a claim for a first team place.

Whoever's to blame, it feels like the gloss has gone off our early season form now, and it's back to the drawing board.

This is from Dominic King of the Mail after the previous tie V Mansfield:

"The teamsheet told the story: Nothing experimental, no unnecessary risks, just a solid line up to get the wheels turning and put a journey into motion.

It was never going to be any other way, with David Moyes, but still it was reassuring. While some of his counterparts, shuffled the desk and pulled out Jokers – a penny for your thoughts, Ruben Amorim – Everton’s manager was never going to bet the house so early.

Why would he? For Moyes to gamble with the potential of a long run in the EFL Cup, against a side as well drilled and committed as Mansfield, would have been nonsensical and there is no chance he would ever do something like that, not when the best avenue to a big day is in this competition."

Given that we scraped by past fourth tier Mansfield, at home with Moyes avoiding the "nonsensical" and "gambling" with the line up, why on Earth would he do the opposite away to a premier league team? It makes absolutely zero sense.

I've read a few posters on other threads say "the team SHOULD have been good enough to win." What does that even mean? Should based on what? Wishful thinking? Past glories? Moyes sees these guys in training every day. Presumably he has an idea of their capabilities, form and attitude. If Dibbling was good and ready then why hold him in reserve until 2 minutes before the end of the derby when we were desperately trying to score? Obviously, he stayed on the bench because Moyes knew he had little to offer. Likewise, McNeil who didn't even feature versus the RS. Then there is Coleman who as a career right back is currently behind O'Brien (a CB) and Garner (DM) being played out of position at right back. Then suddenly last night Coleman was good enough to play at left back? Ahead of two left backs we had on the bench? Utter madness. Beyond that the only reason Tim is even here is because we outfoxed the FFP with the Dobbin switch.

So yeah out team "should" be good enough to beat Wolves assuming we had been properly run for the last 30 years. But as three consecutive relegation battles have proven we have not been well run. Moyes complained all the summer the squad was weak then signed some kids with "potential" who are clearly not ready to make an impact. As has been proven by his reluctance to play them ahead of proven failures like Beto.

Consequently, while I acknowledge the positive things Moyes has done, essentially throwing a cup game is in my opinion grounds for dismissal.

Not at all, Jimmy, but more than half of the team were second best players and Moyes selected them.

What I don't understand is why our best three players were left out of the starting 11 and, as others have pointed out, "relegation" standard players were put out.

Why play Seamus, a veteran right-back, at left-back and leave Mykolenko, our only half-decent left-back, on the bench?

Some puzzling questions for you there, Davie.

I just hope TFG have 2 fullbacks and a goalscorer lined up for January.

Exactly, Jimmy, if the manager makes his subs at all, then he usually makes them very, very late, and anyone who knows anything about footballers ill know this isn't very good for team spirit, mate.

The fringe players need games, but when the manager is reluctant to play them, it often has a very negative effect, especially when you suddenly put them all in together and ask them to go and perform.

A lot of us are fuming but suddenly I think about our new owners who I don't think have ever turned up and watched us play live.

This makes me think that they can't really have any feelings for glory in the same way that us supporters have, and this makes me feel both disheartened and very sad.

Absolutely rank management.

I also agree about his use of subs recently. Dyche-like and outdated.

Think I'd stick with him for this season (we've had far too much managerial change), but I really hope this new regime has succession planning as its Number 1 priority.

So, to firstly see the team selection and then that horrendous performance, I am absolutely fuming! The first half on Saturday was bad enough but last night was unforgivable.

I really thought that Moyes had some understanding of our support. He played a near first-team against Mansfield because I now think he daren't take risks in front of 50,000 at home. Away from home, he obviously doesn't give a shit.

I feel completely betrayed, so god knows what our younger supporters who have never seen us win anything are feeling. Does he have any understanding of what Everton means to us?

How naive of me to actually think that Moyes has become a more positive-thinking manager. Don't get me wrong, I am very grateful for his fabulous turnaround last season... but that is history now.

We are Everton, not some shitty other club, and Evertonians expect better. Lose the fans and he is toast; he would do well to take heed and sort himself out.

It's an interesting point about fans. Especially now many are having to pay more and travel further to get to games.

And of all fans, the away fans like yourself and Rob are the last you want to lose. How many games in recent years have you lot vocally driven us over the line? Frequently.

What I can't agree with is playing an aging right back at left back while we have a hardly seen young left back signed for a significant fee left on the bench. And while I've not seen the game did we just set out to play our usual game plan with different players?

Still, Mr Moyes might now know who he can rely on in the case of injuries regardless of how they perform in training.

If you had struggled through watching it, then I suggest that you would agree that Moyes got it very wrong. Why 'rest' players when we are not in any European competitions and there is a 6-day break until we play again on Monday night?

His decision was made worse given that he brought on the first teamers for the majority of the second half! Doesn't make sense to me.

I still think he was right to play the front-line he selected for the Wolves game, but he's not helping them if they're not getting decent minutes elsewhere.

Moyes rightly wanted a bigger squad; he needs to use it.

I meant to add that there were a few boos at half-time and a few more at full-time so, as I say above, “Take heed, Mr Moyes”.

I don't think Moyes intentionally threw the match but playing Seamus at left-back is baffling when there were 2 on the bench. The starters looked like strangers to each other and that's down to Moyes.

Dibbling, £37M, we all said, play the lad, why buy him if you don't play him? McNeil, well-established Premier League player. Barry, play him, why buy him if you don't play him? £27M. Alcaraz, £15M, play him, don't freeze him out.

League cup game, more important than the Premier League, No.

Apart from the bizzare selection of Coleman at, for the first time in his career, left-back, the forwards he picked should have done the job of beating a Wolves team with nine different changes. The team he put out in the second half couldn't do the job either.

Was the Wolves forward going to score his first goal against us? Yes. Were the team bothered about going out of the cup? No. Was Moyes? No.

Seems to me it's a mind game at Everton, players, manager, all with guess what, the wrong mindset... It's that Everton thing.

Dewsbury-Hall received an absolute gift from the keeper and couldn't make up his mind what to do with it. So he did nothing and lost the ball.

Ndiaye bungled an easy touch late on with the goal gaping in front of him.

Charly overhit the easiest of passes where a good 'un would have created a clear chance.

If our first-line attackers had done their jobs, we should still have gotten a result.

Kieran, by the way, I do agree with you, he should have put out our strongest team.

But the one thing Moyes doesn't want this season is a relegation battle, so he thinks resting key players is a necessary evil. Right or wrong, he's the manager.

The interviewer asked, "Given how much better the team played after you made all the substitutions, do you think you could have won the game if you had started with that team?"

Moyes snapped back: "You couldn't wait to get that question in could you! You are right, Yes."

With all his experience he should not have been so stupid. It was dereliction of duty and a heinous unforgivable error of judgement.

If he was a young manager, there would be realistic justification he would learn from it. But it is just hopeless depression I feel. In respect of this matter: Thanks very much, Davey Moyes, for nothing.

As fans, we would be more understanding of Moyes if he admitted he made a mistake and showed he could learn from it.

He has played the same tactical set-up in away games against the Big 6 for over 20 years with dismal results. He has tumbled out of the EFL Cup on countless occasions due to selecting weakened sides. The inability to learn seems to be a psychological glitch with Moyes.

His “rationale” for selecting that side, if it can be called that, was that he wanted to test if squad players were ready to play at this level. I assume he doesn't watch them in training then?

These players have been starved of action because the manager is reluctant to make proactive substitutions in the Premier League (another glitch), therefore his masterplan was to play them all together in the same side. Experimentation might have been 2-3 changes, but not 7.

Added to which he could not stop himself from repeating his other psychological glitch of selected “trusted” senior players out of position just to shoehorn them into the line-up. Coleman at left-back ahead of Mykolenko and Aznou?!

I have said it before. Moyes is incapable of learning and defaults to the same errors when under pressure. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing endlessly and expecting different results.

I was really hoping we had Moyes 2.0 when he rejoined us. It is not too late, but stop making the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

"Somebody correct me if necessary but wasn't this competition started to give lower league clubs a big payday if drawn against top league clubs?"

No, it was started as a competition for League 2 and below, League 1 teams did not play in it until sometime in the 1960s, if they felt like it, and it was not compulsory for them to enter until 1970, I think.

"Apart from the bizzare selection of Coleman at, for the first time in his career left-back,"

I suggest you check the highlights of Coleman's first Premier League game for us, against Spurs, where he was Man of the Match... at left-back.

For the life of me, I couldn't remember what they were called, either Sky has brainwashed me or I'm getting senile now I'm collecting my pension.

In hindsight, it's clear that the decision to shuffle the team and give squad players a chance to shine did not pay off, and we're all frustrated to be exiting a cup competition.

However, I think there's two flaws in the argument - firstly that this is all on Moyes, and that professional Premier League footballers shouldn't be stepping up, and secondly that this was some sort of super weak 'fringe' squad.

Firstly let's look at these so-called 'fringe' players that Moyes played:

● Seamus Coleman -- The sole change to the back four was to bring in one of the club's favourite sons into the full-back positions where we need options due to injuries and lack of signings.

● Garner and Iroegbunam -- Both starting regulars in defensive midfield, granted Gueye was rested, but he'll be off for Afcon in December.

● Alcaraz - New signing last season and a regular feature (albeit often from the bench) in the first 6 games.

● McNeil - One of our best performers in recent seasons and the leader last time out in terms of goal involvements with 13 (5 goals, 8 assists).

● Dibling - the young winger that almost all of this site were clamouring to sign and pretty much all wanted to be given more game time than late cameo appearances.

● Barry - Our comparatively big money striker signing who desperately needs game time to see if he can deliver something like the 15 goal involvements he got in La Liga last season. When are we going to give him a chance if not here?

● Travers - cover for Pickford, the only decision that I would think was an unnecessary punt, but I do get he needs to be given a chance.

The formation wasn't crazy, the players weren't wildly out of position, in fact the much praised Garner was playing in his actual position for the fist time for a while, and I repeat these are all proven Premier League players, most of whom were key parts of our successful end to last season.

Yes, some of our better starting players were on the bench: Grealish, Dewsbury-Hall, Gueye, Ndiaye... but to be fair, two of these weren't even here last season in our decent second half of the season. Mykolenko arguably could've started, but he has had a few knocks recently, and let's be honest, Beto is hardly pulling up trees right now leading the line.

What's more, those players were all on the bench and Moyes did bring 5 of them on at just 1-0 down, in plenty of time to make a difference... they didn't, we lost another goal before the end.

Ultimately, despite the result, the game was close. We had the most chances but we didn't score, that happens in football, it'll happen again (especially with our lack of a decisive striker).

So yes, the result is frustrating, and maybe it would've been a different result if Moyes had started other players from the start, but that's a maybe -- not a fact. Had we got through, it would've been smart management and spread confidence throughout the squad that we do have multiple players capable of coming into different positions.

As it stands, most of the players who were given minutes failed to take their chance and can hardly complain if they are being left on the bench. The result has cemented who Moyes can rely on and who will be starting the forseeable future games.

A disappointingly poor result? Yes.
A strategy that didn't come off? Definitely.
But an obvious/stupid managerial failure? I just don't think that argument holds water.
A typical 'old school' ToffeeWeb moanfest, pulling out all the tired tropes? 100%

There must have been at least 7,000 Evertonians inside the stadium that night and I think every single one of them must have felt sorry for Seamus.

So much hearsay in that post, Chris, and for all your positivity about what could or might have been, the simple fact is that our team will now be under a lot more pressure on Monday night.

The post is entirely factual, where's the 'hearsay'?

As for additional pressure, on what basis? From disgruntled fans perhaps, but our league position is no different. We've just exited the League Cup early (again), as we've done for almost every season.

”But an obvious/stupid managerial failure? I just don't think that argument holds water”.

I disagree; I think it does hold water for the following reasons:-

After the disappointment of the derby, putting the same team out and getting a win would have been good for their morale.

With six days to the next game, there was no need for rotation.

You can only win one game at a time - whenever you have a chance to win one you should take it.

A win would have cheered us up and had the crowd up for it against West Ham. Having the fans behind him is of great personal benefit to any manager.

He said in his post-match interview, he chooses who plays. My view is he got it wrong on every level... so, if I am correct, the criticism he has copped is fair enough.

Yes Chris, our league position hasn’t changed but a lot of fans were very disappointed with the way we limped out of another cup competition, so I do believe that result has put extra pressure on the squad.

Tony #38, was that the 5-1 against Larissa?

Benfica destroyed us 5-0 but it was a warm night and it didn't stop me having a really good time in Lisbon.

I remember beating Larissa when Osman scored a wonderful goal at the end of a great team move at Goodison, so I was wondering if you were thinking about Rapid Bucharest, when we lost 5-1 on a night when I felt like checking into what looked like a mental institution above the away end just to cheer myself up!

They took some horrendous abuse at the end and, if it weren't for the fencing, I'm convinced some of our fans would have been on the pitch.

Football is a squad game, and as I outlined either here or in another post, all the players Moyes selected (other than Travers) are or have very recently been first-team starters or at the very least first-choice subs. It's not like he's gone into the youth team here. The performance was not good by anyone's imagination, but they only conceded one goal, against the run of play, and were still in the match at half-time.

Plus Moyes kept all the supposed stars on the bench and brought them on with plenty of time to make a difference. They ultimately didn't.

Would we have beaten Wolves if we'd started with a different side? Possibly, but I don't think it's the shoo-in that everyone is assuming. Whilst it's true they've lost every match this season, it's not like they were getting spanked 5-0 each week, and they have been improving all the time - just ask Thomas Frank's Spurs side (who would've gone second if they'd won and they equalised against the run of play).

No Premier League game (this season) is a walkover, no result can be totally predicted, that's why it's the best league in the world.

Is there room to debate? Obviously. To be honest, I may not have picked this side myself. But I'm not arguing against the discussion, just the totally ludicrous negativity and the knee-jerk damning of the manager down to one result.

Sorry, Tony, what exactly are you going on about?

It's definitely not down to one result. Have a look at the five league games as well as Tuesday's stinker, and they only played one in-form team, Liverpool.

Have a look at the performances in all those games... I think we were lucky to get those 7 points out of them.

Your last paragraph was a classic so let’s unpick it - “ But an obvious/stupid managerial failure? I just don't think that argument holds water.

A typical 'old school' ToffeeWeb moanfest, pulling out all the tired tropes? 100%”

Firstly, Moyes has always taken the same approach to selection for the EFL Cup for 12 years - multiple changes to a settled side, picking 6-7 players who have almost no game time, sitting back away from home. It is a stupid, managerial failure to make the same mistake repeatedly. In fact it is moronic - Moyes has looked embarrassed and defensive since and so he should.

As for “tired trophes”? It is the rationalisation away of failure, dumbing down of expectations, poverty of ambition in selection and tactics, complacent justification of mistakes and acceptance of defeat that are the real “tired trophes” of ToffeeWeb. All the time masquerading as calm, real-world pragmatism touted out when Moyes falls short. As he always does.

Many Everton fans want success, demand success and expect to see success. That is not moaning, it is standards.

I have no time for people coming on here and trying to dumb down expectations or criticise fans who actually want this club to win a trophy.

Moyes has now put himself under huge pressure on Monday night after killing the momentum the team was building up. He only has himself to blame.

Part of the issue with Moyes is that he hasn't used the squad despite opportunities to do so. Take Kiernan Dewsbury Hall; obviously a Moyes signing. Against Villa and Liverpool he was piss poor but plays every minute. Dibbling (who is better central) or Alcaraz could have offered something different to break down Villa in the latter stages however he doesn't have confidence in them.

He has made it clear to every single player who came in against Wolves excluding Barry that he doesn't trust them. Even his assessment while chucking them all in cold was that they weren't up to it and when his boys came on they totally changed the game and we were unlucky to go out. That narrative is total bullshit and is used to try and fool fans into thinking the starting players aren't good enough. We lost 1-0 in the 2nd half also.

Put yourself in the mindset of Alcaraz or Dibbling or McNeill; no matter how well you play (and Alcaraz has been really good previously when playing with the first team and not shunted out on the right) there is no place for you and only 5 or so minutes before the end.

Many argued Wolves made 9 changes but that was to their last game starting line up. Pereira brought 3 of their subs on at half time and 2 later on. Most of that starting line up with the possible exception of Doherty had played a lot of football. Moreover the starting players against us were motivated to do well and they got their rewards yesterday with nearly all of them starting.

Steve has got a long memory and can therefore remember Moyes doing this countless times before but I think the paragraph that resonates the most with me is what Conor wrote @51, paragraph 4, when he talks about putting ourselves into the mindset of players who don't seem to be getting much confidence from their manager when looking in from the outside. (Even more subjectivity!!!)

I have alluded to this earlier in the thread, because I think it's very important for a manager to treat players fairly; otherwise, he will quite simply never get anywhere near their best out of them.