Moyes goes for the win with 4 minutes left

I'm looking forward to this for a change as hoping their game against Atletico will cause them to be a little jaded. Let's get at them!

COYB

If he plays well, so do we.

Hope nothing too bad with Röhl and that he'll be okay for the cup game midweek.

Today's team is much better for us for sure and the shite are not purring as they were then. We can do this. We owe them a beating.

UTFT. COYB. NSNO.

Why does Arne Snot always sound like he's gargling diarrhoea?

I doubt the shite fans or St Virgil or Konate are pleased to face our powerhouse Number 9.

He will give his all today, as he always does. I wish him the success his efforts deserve. Good luck Norberto! UTFT 💙

Didn't know he had Dental Alignment issues, thought that was Barry... :-)

Grealish fouled 4 times by Bradley and no yellow, unreal.

We have some great creative players, but we need to be creating so many chances in order to tuck one away at the moment that games like this are going to be trebly difficult.

Generally not sure I can even keep listening to the commentary team's collective Liverpool blow job - it's about as objective as Trump's media policy!

But galling as it is maybe, I don't think many of us expected much, and at the end of the day, this isn't a season definer. I'd rather be having a decent cup run and a push for Europe whilst losing to Liverpool than win one game and be nowhere else.

On the other hand, I'm not sure why Everton don't just give the 3 points away before the start of early Saturday matches.

Warrayagonnado???

I'm betting on Dibling and put Ndiaye upfront.

If we can get one early in the second half, then it's game on. The other lot do look strong though and seem to have taken their foot off the gas since their second.

Not looking good, I'll keep watching with hope over expectation.

He is stealing about £80k per week!

Soft goals, no tracking of the players for both goals. We just sitting back and can't hold onto the ball.

Get Beto off and give Dibling a go. Can't be worse.

They can so easily get in behind him.

Bad defending for the 2nd goal.

I thought that the first goal should have been a free kick for a foul on Ndiaye and I was still not sure after the replay, even if it was a light touch, but Ndiaye gets a yellow for something similar.

For both goals, our central defenders seemed to be playing their own games rather than as a pair. The first, Keane seems to let it go for Pickford and Tarkowski hasn't moved across to cover; and they do something similar on the second goal.

Moyes has to give us more outlets than Grealish and the long ball from Pickford. Beto has to be more on line with the back post for any crosses rather than the near post on the edge or corner of the 6-yard box and in that way we might cross first time than just mess around until we lose it or it goes out for a throw or goal-kick.

Oh, and ask the ref: How many rule books are we playing under?

Dewsbury-Hall needs to step up.

Their goals may look poor from our point of view but the devils hit it all so early, it's very difficult when it's early, fast, and on target like that.

Not balanced enough to compete. We had 2 chances and we could have scored them on another day.

We sat back, surrendered midfield, 11 behind the ball, in front of our own penalty box.

Beto off, need Alcaraz in midfield, Keane as vulnerable as ever. We have got to go at them... Christ sake, Moyes!!!

Beto is absolutely shit, while Barry doesn't look ready yet. Personally, I'd have took Vardy for a season -- a well better finisher than the 2 I've mentioned.

This already is looking like it's going to be another blank and if it is, that's 3 in 5 games.

But these do have a habit of conceding so hope springs eternal.

Get Dibling on now!

£50M a snip?

TBH Liverpool are also sitting back and looking to hit on the break.

The officials though, 3 minutes injury time? With six subs? Unbelievable

Particularly impressed with the drive and competitive edge of James Garner.

The booking of Dewsbury-Hall was shocking and he booked Grealish after the game, with Bradley getting away with foul after foul.

A very good 2nd half performance, two brilliant wingers. If we only had a man in the middle...neither of our strikers even won a header today.

They weren't that good but first half we were dreadful, likewise second half the roles reverse but unfortunately we have invisibility leading our forward line. Barry was little better than Beto in all truth, despite us seeing more of the ball in key areas.

I thought Mykolenko was very poor today, was he fit?

Our need and desire for proper full-backs and a proper centre-forward are glaringly obvious to me.

Also, I don't see much pace still in the team; we bought Dibling but I'll be honest, from what I've seen of him so far, he doesn't look too quick does he?

Anyway, move on as always, another failed trip to Anfield. It's how we react on Tuesday night now to keep the early season interest alive and kicking.

Unfortunately we lack a decent striker. Barry only a marginally better version than Beto.

And I have to agree that making those subs with only a few minutes left had me wondering when the light went on.

Anyway, we didn't make many chances in the second half after the goal. We've got to find something better from our midfield so that Grealish is just the icing on the cake not the only flavour.

Refereeing is what it is. No great surprise. I'm a bit surprised that they had the bare faced nerve to only add 3 minutes. The number one rule of cheating is that you don't try to make it obvious.

Shame they ran over the top of us early but we showed there's a decent team in there. Crucially I thought Barry showed he's viable as a forward who can link up play.

I'd imagine Beto getting dragged was a sign of Moyes running out of patience with him. No point investing time in a footballer that can't control a 10-yard pass. Put the time into the younger player.

Books Dewsbury-Hall for nothing but does nothing to Bradley... What the fuck???

Little tweaks that will be needed in the next transfer window but will be unforgivable for a second time if we don't manage to rectify them.

Only 3 minutes of added time! How many times could you have read War & Peace in added time if Everton had been 2-1 up?

Moyes should be screaming blue murder and demanding a break down from the officials about how they got to 3 minutes added time, then making a lot of noise to the Premier League and Howard Webb, it's all forgotten about 10 minutes after the game, but it needs being highlighted.

Great point by Ernie who's correct in saying they can't even cheat subtlety, the thick twats.

Beto is truly awful, nice guy, trier etc, but really awful.

Thought Grealish was excellent today.

But I thought Idrissa Gueye was tremendous.

We seem to be slowly getting better as a team, the lack of a quality striker hurting the most.

Barry showed some decent control at times and some better interplay. I'd start him for a few games to give him a proper chance.

Grealish is magnificent.

We might as well just forfeit this fixture every season as we just don't win it.

The amount of times over the years our players always look astonished and shocked at how they begin a match boggles my head because we've lost so many derbies here in the first half hour let's get it right.

If we had turned up in that first half, there's every chance that they'd have ran out of steam (which they did) later on, they did have a grueling match against Atletico Madrid on Wednesday after all.

I take zero positives from yet again losing another derby.

Yes it was a better second half but there were circumstances for that.

To me, we still look as sharp as putty up front. We had enough of the ball in dangerous areas, much like against Villa, but we've got nothing to hit in the middle.

You can see from this performance both (a) why Moyes should steer us back to the Top 10 for the first time in ages but (b) why we're likely to fall short of the European spots.

Bring on the cups. Forget the neighbours with the Meccano stadium. Let's win a cup.

That first 15 minutes of the second half was night and day in terms of the striker's involvement. He held up the ball and linked play nicely.

Let's face it, we're not losing anything by playing him over Beto. Time to give him a chance.

Barry is just not busy enough for me, but he needs time I think.
Meanwhile, I do think Ndiaye up front should be considered.

His subs were shockingly too late again to have any effect on the game.

Ernie, I agree about the first 15 minutes of the second half, but then Barry just disappeared.

The 3 minutes added time was laughable, 4 or 5 minutes minimim is usual now. Even the commentators seemed perplexed by just 3 minutes added on.

Unfortunately we didn't turn up until 2 goals down, so I can't really argue with the result in the end. But I would like a fair officiating performance for once, but once again at their shithole, we didn't get a fair rub.

Half-time came and we got into them, played it on the deck, and could have won it.

Dreadful, just dreadful referee; great goal by Gana and a few great moves by Grealish. As soon as we chased them down and played it on the deck, we looked as if it was only a matter of time, but of course, there wasn't as much as there should have been, was there?

We need to start thinking out of the box regarding a striker as neither is any better than Chermiti or Calvert-Lewin. False No 9?
If we are going to hit long balls we need a striker who can win his share.

Then I put the BBC on and saw that in fact the twats had been two up after 29 minutes! Now correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that headline point to clickbait? Thanks for the false hope, Micheal, really fucking appreciate that, thank you.

Passive first half where we were surprised again that they started quickly and with intensity — why? It was entirely predictable.

We were better in the second half as they sat back. As for the timing of the substitutes, don't get me started.

I thought we could have brought the subs on earlier. The pundits couldn't even believe there was only 3 minutes added on, with 6 subs in the 2nd half, unbelievable.

All in all, though, lots to be pleased about. We're definitely improving.

He's having difficulty beating a full-back.

When a booking can occur:

- If the referee has signaled that they need to pace off the required distance (10 yards) for the defending wall, players must wait for the referee's whistle before taking the kick

- Taking a quick free kick when the referee has clearly indicated to wait is considered unsporting behaviour and can result in a yellow card

- If a player repeatedly ignores the referee's instructions about waiting, this becomes dissent/unsporting conduct

None of these even remotely applies.

Does Barry even know how to head a ball? And once again, a top team gets help from the ref. If it had it been Liverpool who had those two quick free-kicks, with their players running at our defense, you can guarantee they wouldn't have been pulled up.

I would like to know much they spent on players this season to ours. Then include the players they already had. That is the difference we have to bridge; they are so far ahead of us, it's ridiculous.

To all the people who say he left it too late, what would you have us do? Attack stupidly and concede 2 or 3? We were in the game, we just needed a bit of luck and a decent striker.

The only player worthy of being hauled off was Beto.

Top notch!

The booking for taking a quick free kick was a disgrace, as was only having 3 minutes added on at the end after all the subs, time-wasting, goal etc. Even the Liverpool loving commentary team were baffled by these decisions.

You can tell that Grealish is feeling the love and enjoying the recognition his displays are warranting, let's hope it's enough for him to want to stay here!

Now let's win the cup game and our next league match, to keep confidence high. Some of our squad players will be desperate to make an impression on Tuesday. I hate losing to them but feared an embarrassing hiding when they went 2-0 up so we did alright in the end.

Being realistic, the best we could hope for was a draw. I thought we played well in the second half. Barry is an improvement over Beto with potential to play back to goal and, whilst he's yet to show he's the answer long term, I think he deserves a run in the team.

Maybe Moyes could have rolled the dice a little earlier, but we'd grabbed a goal back so understandable that he left it late to make changes. Liverpool overran us in the first half an hour, not sure what our Manager was meant to do about that. I don't think that's down to his tactics. They were just better.

All in all, we made a game of it, scored a great goal and on another day could have got a point. Onwards, it's out the way now.

Can't be any worse!!!!!

Moyes played hoofball to Beto as he probably thought this would work in the first half. Problem is (as we all know) Beto just isn't good enough football-wise and lacks the aggression required against the likes of their centre-backs.

Barry is young but he looks similar to what we have had striker wise these last ten years!

I don't agree we showed enough to "win it". It's another disappointing display from us against these arrogant fuckers.

The ref gave them everything and how the fuck Bradley was not booked in the first half is unbelievable! (But we all know why!)

Fed up!

That being said, thinking back to the summer and Moyes's urgency in getting new recruits seems a bit weird now as the only signing who has made an impact is Grealish.

He has been okay but not exactly a game changer. The rest are all "ones for the future" apparently, which begs the question: Why the urgency in getting them in from Moyes? I had assumed his stated desperation related to getting in players who could make an impact now, not in 2 years.

I understand the thought of planning for the long term but Moyes's rants in the summer made it seem like he was concerned about the here and now with regard to signings.

I'm not comparing Beto to him, just saying if there were better balls being played, he could use his undoubted pace and maybe have a better chance of knocking some in.

Barry looks technically better but I don't see a goal in him.

Barry, needs more playing time but I'm not overly optimistic about him.

If you fail to win a game and you had options you failed to try on the bench, then you've managed it poorly. That's two weeks running now.

It's frustrating because there's so much being done well, and I am optimistic for the season as a whole. The substitutions thing is killing us at the business end of games though.

It should be part the game plan that 3 or 4 substitutions will be made, fresh legs introduced, and alternative options explored in order to finish strong.

The finishing XI is at least as important as the starting XI and Moyes lags behind many other managers in realising this.

Everything people are saying about Beto and worse is being said about his finishing prowess. He is gone. He is irrelevant.

If we want to compare our current sub par strikers to good strikers, why limit the conversation to an injury-prone guy who per Moyes refused to sign a new deal as he wanted to earn even more money than he had fleeced out of us over the last 3 years?

"It was what I expected, coming here it was hostile, faster. I don't think we played well in the first-half, we came in at half-time and had a chat with the manager and then second half, we bossed the game in the second half.

"Frustrating because, if we had played like that, pressed like that from the start, it would have been a different game. In the end, we couldn't get that last goal."

The players had a chat with the manager at half-time. Obviously the players were not happy with the first-half tactics. These players want to have a go. More so, it seems, than the Moyesiah.

The bottom line is we had nothing upfront. I definitely think we missed a trick in not keeping Calvert-Lewin. Our two strikers would probably do well to get 2/10 today.

However, any dissent shown to the ref is likely to end up with a yellow. It would be useful for the ref to explain but that's unlikely.

Dewsbury-Hall, Garner and Gueye struggled in this period also. I agree that Barry now needs a run of games but I'm not sure he is a natural finisher. He needs to get in the 6-yard box more for crosses.

Agree mate, stupid headline, glad u said it multiple times 🤣

You are being remarkably mean today in your comments. Respect!

I wouldn't worry about a thin squad and doing 2 for 1, sometimes you've got to gamble.

Until then I would go with Charly up top, on one condition, no hoofball.

I'm neither despondent nor carried away. We have the nucleus of a very good side. But we still need more creativity in midfield. A proper right-back and a better striker.

But I'm sure against sides that haven't spent £350M on players in one window, we'll get enough wins to have a top-half finish this season.

Dewsbury-Hall is still not impressing me, needs to be in the game a lot more. Ndiaye was Everton's best player for me especially in that dreadful first half when he looked like he was the only one putting up a fight to Liverpool.

For all that Liverpool were so much on top in the first half and Everton had much the better of the second half, neither ‘keeper had much to do with no real chances created by the two teams.

Everton lost the game in the first 30 minutes and using one like-for-like sub for most of the game then using two more with 4 minutes to go sums up Moyes for me.

I keep hearing about how creative we are now but I don't remember much goalmouth opportunity.

If Dewsbury-Hall hasn't impress you today, then I despair. Every person I was with today said he was excellent along with Ndiaye and Grealish.

Gana was at fault for their first goal: he didn't track the goal scorer, just jogged watching him. Pickford at fault for second, you just should not let a ball through your legs.

I wouldn't play them again.

Just think about Man City. They had 20 years of Man Utd winning everything under the sun while they just faded away into the lower leagues.

Now look at how things have reversed. Man City are flying high and Man Utd are falling apart. Nothing lasts forever, we will be back.

After the second goal, he might have changed things: Barry for Beto at half-time helped a little but could have come earlier.

Moyes has a better squad now, he has a bench, I admire managers that can see what's wrong and tweak it, making early subs if required.

Then we have questionable decisions from officials, bookings, time added, usual bias.

Plusses... we can play better on the deck now we have better quality players, our tactics should always maximise this. We do have goal threat from several players, this makes us more potent than we were, though we do still lack a full-on striker.

Barry edged Beto today and we need to see what he can do with a run of games.

Bad day at the office, next...

I didn't think any Everton player was excellent today, how could they be after that woeful first half? Dewsbury-Hall setting Liverpool up for their second goal with a poor header to a Liverpool player.

Ndiaye was the only Everton player offering a fight, for me, in that first half and I wouldn't have taken him off near the end.

Nothing excellent about Grealish either except for that pass in the first half to Dewsbury-Hall which came to nothing.

It wasn't a very good game, being honest, with neither goalkeeper having to make any worthwhile saves... although I agree Pickford could have done better for their second goal.

I said it when I first saw Beto that whoever sanctioned that signing should never work in football again. That's why I was shocked when we've basically made the same mistake with Barry.

The second goal was just a class one by a world-class striker. In fact, so was their first, I just can't imagine any of our present players scoring goals like those.

Moyes made a decisive change at half-time, and Barry really started to get himself about and showed some good skills. But, after Gana's terrific strike, he seemed to fade away, he lost about half a dozen headers without seeming to be remotely convinced that he could win those.

Hate to bring up Calvert-Lewin, but he would almost certainly have won most of them and kept us in play.

The Alcaraz and Diblings subs were, I agree, about 10 minutes too late, and the game petered out disappointingly. But, I thought Moyes gave them a fight, and made the crowd nervous.

Maybe, this game just gave a glimpse to the teams who will play the RS for the rest of the season, on how to get at them.

At the end of the day, half a billion pounds in spending difference (£250M worth of subs alone!) ultimately proved decisive.

At one stage, he got one simple pass from midfield, and with his first touch the ball bounced off his boot straight to an opponent.

Their team cost many fortunes more than ours with a over £100M striker as sub. All the neutral opinion was that we would get stuffed.

It's no use keep dogging Beto: if we keep giving him the ball facing the wrong way and surrounded with defenders, he's on a loser. He needs through balls or crosses into the box from the wings... most centre-forwards do.

We are still a patched-up side and considering we have 2 or 3 playing out of position, I think we are doing well.

Second half, we progressed the ball up the field, which he should have done in the first half, but not enough to support the attack. Expecting an unsupported striker in the Premier League to score depends on a lot of luck.

Moyes's woeful record against the traditional Top 4 continues and it won't change with tactics like that. Sorry, but Moyes needs to get rid of his inferiority complex.

Everton could have been in the Top 4 last week, now they are 8th.

Apart from better players, more money, The Ref. etc, etc. Why did we lose?

Well none of our Back line had bad games, brain farts, slips, both their goals -- both well taken, it has to be said -- came from slack play in our midfield, who seemed to be all doing their own individual things well enough, just not in an effective, collective, intense, manner.

Why didn't we win?

See above and add Beto and Barry to it.

Grealish looks more effective the more he comes inside. Stuck out on the wing he's easier to double up on, drag the markers around a bit ffs.

If we have two poor No.9s, why not play with a proper false No 9 -- Ndiaye??

Do something, anything, mix it up Moyes -- Plan A is shite.

But I've noticed over the years, the more choices Moyes has the more he struggles to find a decent starting 11.

Michael; 'Moyes went for the Draw! with 4 mins. left' might sum it up better.

Moyes will be Moyes.

We are playing with a right-back who doesn't belong there but doing his best, a left-back who is not good enough but doing his best, two centre-backs who are not good enough but doing their best, and Idrissa Geuye who, despite a wonderful goal, is long finished at this level.

So we are trying to get a result at Anfield with Pickford, Grealish, Garner, Dewsbury-Hall and Ndiaye as our only football players. This would be difficult with any manager so it's gonna be harder with one who is always cautious to throw the kitchen sink at the opposition and whose tactics are outdated.

The Red Shite took their foot off the pedal at half-time but Moyes never seized the opportunity to go for it with the two subs he made later. We brought back an older Moyes but he's stuck in his ways of thinking and this will cost us.

Beto is a write-off. He will score the odd goal and do his best but he's about Sunday league level, I reckon, so the quicker we get a real striker in, them the quicker we improve.

Gonna be another long season but it's not all bad. We finally have decent ball players in the team that we can enjoy. Branthwaite will make us better and hopefully this young striker Barry can start getting goals with more time on the pitch.

The ref was a tosser today. Allowing the shite to waste so much time on free kicks and throws etc, then booking our players for needless issues.

Show me a striker who's not facing his own goal...

It's called hold-up play, which he can't do.

How can these corrupt officials get away with it?

He mostly kept Salah quiet as he usually does in these games.

As usual, it looks like Moyes left his subs until late. Is there any chance we can get him a substitutions coach to help him be a bit more proactive?

Liverpool are a very good team but they had played on Wednesday night so it was obvious that they were going to tire as the game went on.

I never saw Moyes mention this. I saw him say that we were probably as close to Liverpool as we had ever been just before he left, although he omitted to mention that Liverpool had just come 7th.

It was sad to read for someone who has stood on the Gwladys Street and watched Everton players running around Goodison Park with the Championship Trophy, although this made me aware of something I've always been aware of regarding David Moyes.

He's a decent manager, but he's never had a genuine winner's mentality. He's okay for Everton now, and hopefully he gives us a trophy his time around... but if you really want to win, then you have got to both have and also be able to give your players some real belief.

The Man Utd players must have been rolling their eyes and thinking, “This lunatic is going on about players like Phil Jagielka who we all respect for being a very decent Premier League footballer, but he never actually won a thing!”

We are hopefully a work in progress but it's still very early days. Losing to Liverpool is something we have all become accustomed to, unfortunately, but hopefully this will change as we hopefully begin to grow as a team.

Right-back is another issue, players playing out of position but Coleman fit and on the bench… why was he given a contract? We need to be smarter and more professional with our recruitment and retention.

Today was just previous bad decisions coming home to roost; thankfully, I think we are slowly changing.

Thank you to Jack Grealish for finally highlighting the disgraceful bias that our managers never, ever highlight. Staying quiet doesn't seem to be working for us, so fucking change it.

Take a look at Paco Alcácer who is on a free. Former Spain international, 19 games 12 goals. Scored plenty of goals and assists to for Barca, Villarreal, Valencia and Dortmund.

He must be better than what we presently have. It's really letting us down and must be getting some players down as we creating but not getting goals we should be.

I love the ironic title to this article. Nice one, Michael.

When, seriously, fucking when, will it be our turn?

Did anyone believe that David Moyes would lead us to victory today? Hands up!

I would prefer us packing the midfield away from home in games against the Red Shite. Dewsbury-Hall is nice on the ball but a liability off it. Big holes in the midfield lead to their 2 goals.

Refreshing interview post-match from Grealish saying what most of the other 14 have known for years. I wouldn't be surprised if a fine was coming his way.

No idea what our scouts are searching for but, if Barry is the answer, we are going nowhere. Don't get me wrong: he was better than Beto.

We are better than last season, let's just hope the new owners want us to be challenging and recruit accordingly.

The game was over after 30 minutes, so I have no idea what these posters were watching. We only gained a foothold at all because Liverpool decided to stay compact second half and hit us on the break.

I don't know if it was the game plan not to press in the first half, or the players did not follow the game plan, but the first half performance was as bad as Leeds away.

Wouldn't be hard though, would it? A perpetual weakness of the Moyesiah. We need to be more pro-active and less subservient when playing the Sly Six and the RS in particular.

Wolves lost 3 - 1 at home today. No slip ups on Tuesday Blues. Strong line-up and get the result.

The first half was pure Moyes.

Charles Brewer (81), why don’t you think the second paragraph could apply (- Taking a quick free kick when the referee has clearly indicated to wait is considered unsporting behaviour and can result in a yellow card)?
The ref was making the players wait for his whistle routinely. It was still massively over the top to actually book KDH though. The ref had pretty much finished making sure everything was organised
Dave Abraham’s is right KDH bizarrely started off the move they scored their second from by making a really odd attempt to head the ball backwards to a supporting player when he could have simply allowed it to run and then he would have been attacking their penalty area.
Apart from that, however, I thought he had an okay game

He also said that he had not realised that he (Grealish) had also received a yellow.

He will never change his cautious approach.

On another note, I was wondering the size of Tyler Dibling's shinpads as he doesn't seem to wear any. Having read up on it, it looks like 8 cm x 5 cm mini shinpads.

One of these days, there will no doubt be a ruling on the size and materials for pads. In my day, I wore larger ones, with a harder covering. Still didn't help when a stud broke the pads cutting my leg open.

I've just watched the sports round up in Devon. Liverpool enjoying local supremacy... Slot explaining why Liverpool were obviously tired and not a word from Moyes is included...sigh

This just empowers us more to stick up a finger and get down to business...

From where I stood it looked like a foul on Ndiaye in the lead up to their goal. Regardless, we were very poor in the first half.

Maybe try Grealish, Ndiaye and Dibling as a front three. Better second half performance but, as we were crap in the first half, it's not saying much. On to Wolves.

Wow, you won 2-1, amazing! What a team!

Can you imagine Everton spending half a billion, and then beating Leeds at home 2-1, and sending everyone delirious? Me neither.

On the issue of subs, it's all very well saying bring them on sooner, but it's not like we then play with 13. That means we've got to take off Ndiaye and Dewsbury-Hall; it might work, but it could easily backfire.

The thing with Barry, I must admit I'm surprised by people's lack of patience. He's hardly played, but when he has, he's linked up well. And he's got a high ceiling; in 6 months, he will be significantly better than now.

You can't fix everything in one window, I think we've done really well. And we've not even felt the impact of Röhl and Dibling yet.

Unfortunately, and I include myself in this, patience is hard to find after we have, once again, gone down at Anfield with a whimper.

Another Moyes whimper.

None of this 4-0 crap with the Moyesiah. We went toe to toe with them for the whole game, and they were crying like a baby in injury time. I'll take that as good progress.

Grealish is just a fantastic addition. Once we get Jarrad back and can play 10 yards further forward, we'll really start to improve.

To reference someone above saying they were surprised Moyes didn't make buys for right now, I agree. And that is enormously to his credit.

Unlike Carlo, who spent a fortune on a bunch of 28-year-olds, Moyes has bought players like Barry, Dibling and Röhl, who will be much better in 2 years time. The tricky bit with this, is that we are not currently a markedly different team from last season, despite all the money spent.

Röhl, Aznou and Dibling aren't yet in the team, and we spent £60M just making like-for-like replacements for Calvert-Lewin and Doucoure. So the manager needs to be cut a bit of slack in my view.

It's a lot easier to go 2-0 down, shackles off, opposition naturally protect their lead and give up more of the play. That's all that happened.

That was not a team that went into the game believing they could get a victory and going out to grab that opportunity from the outset.

I'm not saying that Moyes isn't doing a good job. But my feeling was that there was a result to be had there today. I've watched every game of theirs this season and I'm amazed at how many they have won. The force of their presence seems to be getting them over the line in matches and I just hoped today that Moyes could fire a team up to go and upset them.

In the short term, I think he must consider playing Ndiaye as the central forward and bringing in either Alcaraz or Dibling into the forward positions.

Barry and Beto just aren't capable and I think we would be better suited with Ndiaye as the focal point. It means we will have to play to feet but Ndiaye is a hell of a strong player for his height, the ball always sticks with him and he is capable of winning fouls.

I'm not disappointed with the business Everton have done and I didn't expect everything to change in one window either but, if progress is to be made, then what I do expect is for everyone to know their job and for us to play in a system that protects our deficiencies when we play against the better teams.

I watched the highlights, saw the goals, and it surprised me that we looked so open, because this is the last thing I'd have been doing in the first 30 minutes at Anfield.

Gueye should have followed his runner, is something I've read on this thread, and although I wouldn't dispute that assessment, my own view is that we should have been that tight and compact, and this would have nullified their midfielders running into space in the first place, simply because there wouldn't have been any space to run into.

Maybe I'd have to watch the whole game? But like I've been saying all week, given a choice, Tuesday's game is a lot more important.

The 2nd half was much better but some of those refereeing decisions and particularly the free kicks were just bizarre. It's okay for them to take one with a rolling ball though. Then there was the 3 minutes added on…

Their quality was the difference in the end and to be able to bring a £120M striker off the bench is insane. Another difference is that they expect to win.

Anyway, onto Wolves midweek and I agree that is a bigger game for us. I just hope Moyes sees it that way too.

Barry looked a tad better but that elevates him from Brett Angell to Mick Ferguson.

The ‘recruitment team' let us down badly on the striker front over the summer and we saw the bleak consequences of that today.

If I had to start one of them, it would be Barry (and he should start in the cup). Unlike Beto, we still need time to judge him fairly. I would start neither against West Ham and push Ndiaye up front. It would be nice to see Dibling, Mr Moyes -- and not on the 86th minute.

Jack, is Paco Alcácer on a free? If so, good shout, but isn't he still signed to a Saudi club or did they let him go over the summer? He would be better than Beto and Barry. Our striker saga makes me absolutely fecking miserable. I can't see past it at the moment.

We could have nicked a point today. We will float by Wolves on Tuesday. And we will murder the Hammers next weekend, even if they do have a Potter-less bounce.

I promise you that you would have been totally embarrassed by those first 30 minutes or so at Anfield today.

For what it's worth, the first half we were dreadful, but the 2nd half was a massive improvement, without actually creating too much, but then neither did they.

Let's be honest, not many sides come away from there with anything and we showed more intent in the 2nd half than their supposedly nearest challengers Arsenal, so let's not be too harsh on Moyes.

It looks already even this early on that they are going to piss the league, what with their squad and help from every referee in the land. I doubt they'll even get a challenge this season, depressing, isn't it?

I get that point about Liverpool shutting up shop a bit at 2-0 But I never thought we were under the cosh the way some think we were. I've seen us under the cosh with Steven Gerrard running riot, and it was nothing like that.

From what I recall, Liverpool's goals came out of the blue a bit. The main frustration I had with the first half was how disjointed we looked going forward.

Obviously Beto was disappointing, but even in that first half I thought Grealish was terrific. He just had so much time on the ball, in that cauldron.

One problem we had is that we had to stick with our three centre-midfielders through the game (cos Röhl was injured). So I think we tired, at the point Liverpool were able to bring on their subs.

But let's not forget where we've come from. This is not the Moyes team of 2011. He took over an appalling side just months ago, and it's going to take time before we can compete properly with the Champions on their own turf.

We weren't embarrassed today, I thought we made a reasonable fist of it. The key for me is Jarrad. You don't swap him out for Keane without it affecting the whole team in a negative way (and that's not to have a go at Michael, it's just he doesn't have the pace or the bite).

There are a lot of worse left-backs out there.

Name me a few?

The English media has become part and parcel of the RS circus and they don't even try to hide it.

ps: Maybe it's time for someone to update the player photos that appear on the main ToffeeWeb banner. It's weird seeing the departed likes of Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Ashley Young still popping up on there.

I fucking hate the media.

Punditry used to be an interesting add-on; now it's something to be borne through gritted teeth.

I wondered in an earlier post if it was the game plan or the failure of the players to implement the press.

Moyes accepted the team should have pressed more rather than dropping off, and it took feedback from the players to change it. Grealish confirmed this in his post-match interview.

2/10 for Moyes for his performance and hoping it is 24th time lucky next season.

Kevin, I watch MotD to get a balanced view (some chance, eh?) of each and every game, not the Ozempic queen's RS cheerleading.

Normally she could go to her parents house but her dad was watching the derby, and normally I'd have said to her “Sorry, girl, but I'm watching Everton” but, for the first time in my life, I chose not to watch the derby, because I preferred to watch the kid play instead.

The standard isn't as good but I'm glad I watched the game because he scored and got MotM, but I suppose I was even more glad I never watched the game because of what my son, Neil C, my father, and you have all said about our pitiful start to the game.

I have always thought I could read a game of football very naturally, Andy, and although I might be delusional in having these thoughts, so the 3 -minute highlights were enough for me because I have already assumed that we got it very wrong with our tactics by trying to play such an open game.

As I have said, I maybe need to watch the game, but a massive improvement without really creating anything sounds to me like Liverpool took their foot off the pedal and were not in any real trouble?

As for the actual match, very much a game of two halves. However, I do think we are more than decent, now. As others have said, we lack a quality striker and a couple of quality full-backs. Hopefully some of these will be addressed in the next couple of windows.

I want the best for Everton and I will never be a person who just sits on one side of the fence, never changing or feeling insulted when someone I like gets a little bit of stick.

I have always preferred constructive criticism to lies and, if I'm being honest, the minute I read David Moyes talking about the derby on the Echo website on Friday, I had a feeling that the Everton team were not going to Anfield believing they could win the game.

We have got some very good players (a little bit short at fullback and upfront) so if the manager, is prepared to try and become a little bit more creative, then I don't see why we can't go and win a cup?

Also, I thought that Moyes clearly left his substitutions far too late. When you are chasing the game as we were, the two players he brought on should have been given 20 minutes.

But overall, you can see progress, and it's easy to forget just how bad we were this time last season.

We lost the game in the first 30 minutes through the tactics of the manager; we got a goal back but didn't create any clear-cut chances even though we had the better of the second half.

My perspective of Everton's season so far, P5 W2 D1 L2:

First game: deserved nothing through the tactics of the manager.

Second game: beat Brighton 2-0 although Brighton were the better team and deserved a draw at least.

Third game: never saw the Wolves game, away on holiday, but take it that we deserved to win and could have won by more although they nearly threw 2points away in the last few minutes.

Fourth game: Aston Villa, we didn't do enough to go and win the game, poor or non-substitutions didn't help the team.

Fifth game: Liverpool got their two goals and were content with holding on to their lead, one like for like substitution which helped initially until Barry went back into his shell, then two more subs with 4 bleedin' minutes to go. Beaten before we got on the field and the players, it seems, having a word with the manager about the tactics... What are the rest of his coaching team doing to alter the tactics of this attack-avoiding manager doing?

Only five games I know — I think we could have done better against the teams we have played. Let's be honest, only Liverpool have been an in-form team; Wolves have lost every game; have Villa won any? We didn't even have a go versus Leeds until Leeds scored with six minutes to go...

Never mind the BBC... concentrate on the manager, his tactics, and how he's got this team playing!

Nothing but respect for your views, and also you've played the game at the highest level, so obviously know a lot more than me.

My argument is I don't think there's another manager who we could get who could have done a better job than Moyes. Yes, it's not great... but it's certainly a lot better than this time last season.

My biggest gripe is we never got a right-back and the killer, a striker who could guarantee us 15 a season, a,

I've said this before: Beto and Barry won't get 12 league goals between them, and that I fear will come back to haunt us big time.

I've been a supporter of Beto and, whilst I do think he was fighting for scraps, it wasn't good enough; Barry should probably get a run in the team now. He didn't look great either but seems to facilitate the team looking more cohesive and unlike Beto he should improve significantly over the season. Or play Ndiaye there and Dibling on the right. It could work in matches where we can get the ball to his feet.

It's done now and hopefully the next few matches should go better. There's talent in this team though still some definite areas to improve upon.

Unlike teams that rock up at Anfield who put two banks of defence up, effectively parking the bus, perhaps it shows that the aim was to give it a bit of a go although obviously there wasn't much evidence of giving it a go until we had been undone and were two down.

It would be useful for our players and management to watch the highlights and see how they were caught out.

Agreed, might have been good to see Gueye's goal again in the analysis which would have highlighted the decent build-up, cross and the ball back to Gueye but that was shown in the middle of David Moyes interview section. The point was made by Jack Grealish about the 3 minutes added time and the booking for the free-kick.

I sometimes think that we have to get over the perceived bias. I doubt we would be worried about any bias if we were winning these derby matches. Also, there are many ex-Blues as pundits throughout the media but of course that doesn't fit the narrative.

It was, as ever, a painful watch, so I think you probably made the right decision.

"We got it very wrong with our tactics by trying to play such an open game."

The first 30 minutes were very tough but I don't think it was because we tried to play an open game — in fact, quite the opposite, I suspect.

Given the comments about the half-time chat and the vast improvement in our play second half, I think that's when we played an open game, and we can be good at it against top teams — as long as they don't swarm all over us like a herd of rabid dogs.

That's my assessment of how they stopped us playing forward early on, with perhaps the Moyes mantra of “keep it tight until half-time” embedded deep in our subconscious. We just had no answer to their aggression and intensity early on.

We do have good players, but half of them are sat on the bench and not getting anywhere near enough gametime, and are consequently of little to no value when they do eventually, finally get on the pitch... for a paltry 4+ minutes. This is so typical of Moyes, it drives me absolutely fucking crazy.

The only difference I can see from last season to this is that Dewsbury-Hall is playing the Doucoure role.

Doucoure was better off the ball and used to close those gaps in midfield, whereas Dewsbury-Hall is a lot better on the ball but not great off it.

I think Alcaraz has been harshly treated in favour of Dewsbury-Hall. I suppose at least we have competition for that place.

Playing away to the Sky 6, I wouldn't have minded packing the midfield to close those gaps, especially in the first 20 minutes.

I thought we were just getting back into the game as they scored the 2nd.

I do agree with the calls for Ndiaye to play as a false 9 and play Dibling. Both Beto and Barry will cost us this season.

As for the game itself, I didn't think Liverpool got out of 2nd gear. They are an efficient team who could afford to have x2 £100M players on the bench. Football has always been about the money... but never to this level.

The punditry these days is so bland that it's rarely worth watching. Thierry Henry's occasional appearances can be interesting, but I don't think there has been a decent one since Alan Hansen retired.

Punditry was far better in the 1970s. People like Jimmy Hill and Cloughie were credible figures who made great viewing.

Also, there is a great clip on YouTube of Malcolm Alison explaining to Alan Mullery (to his face) why he isn't a top class midfield player -- well worth a watch.

I guess these days they would all be “cancelled” for expressing an opinion that might cause offense.

Some of our squad weren't even born the last time we won there in front of a crowd, so what is it that makes them fearful? Is it instilled into them the day the sign for us our recent history at Anfield, are they told it's one game we never win before even stepping foot in the place, is it because it's a local derby, or do we simply freeze on the day?

The crowd can also be a fear factor but, let's face it, if any professional footballer becomes fearful of a game simply because of the home crowd, then they really shouldn't be playing the game. I understand certain grounds can be hostile, but you are only playing the eleven men in a different coloured shirt to you, not the 50+ thousand fans in the stands.

Also, the less said about the referee, the better. Three quick free kicks taken by us, and all pulled back, with Dewsbury-Hall even being booked for one. What's that all about?

They took a quick free kick which was allowed to continue which ultimately led to a corner, but thankfully nothing came from it.

Every 50/50 challenge and free kick seemed to go in their favour. Some fouls on us not given, whilst a little nudge on them being awarded a free kick. Maybe I'm seeing things through blue-tinted glasses here, but that's the way it felt during the game, with mates and other Blues around us saying the same thing.

Finally the added on time in the second half: 3 minutes was an absolute joke. I watched the Fulham v Brentford game where 7 minutes were added on. There weren't many stoppages in that game, and one VAR check via the pitch side screen which took about 30 seconds, yet 7 minutes were added on.

You can bet your bottom dollar, had we got an equaliser, then that 3 minutes would have been 7 or 8 minutes added on. I don't care what anyone says, referees are definitely doing as much as they can to help the RS... and they get away with it.

I think we have to accept that there is a massive difference in quality between the 2 squads, so going to Anfield and expecting a win, especially from a team who have spent the last few seasons fighting relegation, is expecting way too much.

The only outfield player we have that would get in their team is Jack Grealish, who has made such a big difference to our team. The process of going from relegation candidates to competing for a Top 10 spot will take more than 1 window.

Also, at present, we are basically playing with 10 men when Beto starts. While Moyes has improved him since arriving, he is so far off the pace of what we need, and I think we need to give Barry time before passing judgement.

There is no doubt we are playing a far better brand of football than we did under our last 3 managers and, as yesterday proved, we sadly are nowhere near the quality of our neighbours. Had we had an Ekitike to call on, then you are talking a whole different ball game.

More than anything else, I think good players love space. When I watched Liverpool, playing at Burnley last week, I think they struggled because their opponents were plugging all the gaps.

The game has gone, let's just hope we can beat Wolves on Tuesday, and hopefully get a few cup-ties under the lights at Bramley-Moore Dock.

I had to shrug my shoulders at your headline, Michael, because I knew we were losing by at least a couple of goals, judging by a couple of WhatsApps, I had received, but I never looked at the score, even at half time, so when I put ToffeeWeb on to find the score, the first thing I saw was your headline.

My partner was asking me what score the derby was, and I said, I don't know. You do know, she was saying but I was calmly reading your report, trying to see if Everton, had managed to get a draw.

I never got excited though, I've been on ToffeeWeb for far too long long now, and have come to understand that even “Literal Mike” isn't always so literal with his match reports!

That's not a criticism, Michael, just a little nod to how we sometimes perceive many of the people on this website, who we have never met in our lives.

We hung in there till we got a foothold in the game, and battled well without me ever feeling we'd equalise.

This squad will be good enough against most teams, but needs more quality and physicality in midfield and attack before it can compete with the top sides.

How much Barry will develop as a goal scorer is questionable. It's not as if he is 18 or 19... he is 23 next month.

"How much Barry will develop as a goal scorer is questionable."

He would need to actually have a chance to score a goal. We created nothing for him yesterday.

I don't think Grealish would be entertained by Liverpool, he would slow them down, he even slows some of Everton's attacks down by holding on to the ball too long.

He's improved us without doubt but he hasn't been that outstanding up to now.

He doesn't play like a striker, seeming more comfortable outside the box.

Reading the comments of most of the journalists, they all said how influential Grealish is to this team.

Will Unwin from The Guardian said, "Liverpool were giving away fouls often because they couldn't contain Grealish with his energy and ability to move at pace with the ball at his feet."

Chris Bascombe from The Telegraph said, "Everton rallied and left Anfield in better spirits than in recent years after making Liverpool having to fight for the victory."

Oliver Holt from The Mail said, "Liverpool may have made a name for themselves for scoring stoppage time winners, but by the end it was Liverpool fans who were racked with nerves and whistling for the final whistle, Everton were inspired by Grealish after the interval."

So many of these are journalists who support Liverpool; so, rather than be too hard on our team, I will take their comments as something our side can build on.

I think Ndiaye has been very good in the games I've watched Everton play this season and I was wondering if Moyes could get a little bit more creative and get him to play closer to Grealish? Especially if it means Dibling can also come into the team and make us a lot more adventurous.

I expected to be jumped on there and yet yours is the only response.

I've never read The Guardian, Bascombe isn't bad— remember him from the Echo, reporting on Liverpool, Houllier banned him from Melwood for criticising Liverpool on one occasion, Oliver bleedin' Holt feeds his own ego.

Anyway Everton got more into the game in the second half and the last minutes of the first half, well they had their first on target in 45th minute of the half and Grealish made his first decent move of the half releasing Dewsbury-Hall with a good pass.

In the second half, he played better, as did most of the other players, but to say he inspired them is an exaggeration. To me, the Irish kid had a good game against him, winning a few tackles and stopping him as many times as Grealish beat him.

I was willing Everton to score in the last few minutes -- why wouldn't I and any supporter who was watching -- cursing the stupid fouls that Liverpool wanted and got to waste more time, cursed Moyes more for the ridiculous substitutions 4 minutes from time.

Grealish plays with a smile on his face; I'd rather he had a growl on his face and played with a bit more aggression to go with his obvious skill — that would suit me a bit more.

Let's see how we perform by Christmas that will tell us more about any progress we are making not just after playing five league games with only one in form team as opponents in those games.

Can Moyes change? Does he know how to change? Will he change the formation up front and play just footballers there until we can get better strikers than we've got... or maybe Beto and Barry miraculously improve?

We tried hard in the 2nd half but, no matter how good Grealish and Ndiaye were, we had nothing upfront. We got no 50/50 decisions and their time wasting was shocking... and to add just 3 minutes was shocking.

I had to cringe when the commentary and Crouchy were praising Kerkez, did they not see Ndiaye give him a roasting?

Dalglish's daughter with her slimey comments on Jack Grealish's yellow card. Jack didn't realise he got a yellow card and she comes out with, "Well, he knows now."

Her and Danny Murphy never give any credit. We all know Jack was by far the MotM. This is total Bias. I will never watch Match of the Day again.

Bring back Lineker.

By then, Branthwaite should be back. He missed (all but one) of the first 10 games last season. The record at that point was 2-3-5 (WDL) and 10 v 17 on the goals and 9 points. He then played the next 27 and the record was 8-12-7 and 31 v 27 for goals.

There is a lot of chatter on having to play deeper because of the slowness of Keane and Tarkowski -- so we will play farther up the pitch and may be quicker.

Right-back we are not going to solve until January and probably Summer 2026 and we will continue with O'Brien. I think this is the learning of the game before taking over from Tarkowski in the same way that Lescott learnt under Moyes.

Mykolenko I see as a good defensive left-back. By game 10, he should have fully got over the injury. By then, Aznou may also have learnt some more about how to defend. That is the primary role of the position. Just check the fan plaza and see how many goals Ray Wilson scored!

By game 11, Dibling will be more at home and integrated. Perhaps a couple of League Cup matches, but would you replace Ndiaye with him? Would you?

Barry, I believe, will come good, but I do not think he is a 20-goal-a-season striker. He is a younger Calvert-Lewin and costs a lot less. He gives the impression of someone who will link the attack while others score the goals.

He might get 10-12 in a season but he is not a Yakubu or a Lineker. The requirement for Moyes is to create a team, very much like the 2006-2013 team where goals came from everywhere and not just the centre-forward.

I am aware he did a similar tackle later that came off but, on this occasion, Etikeke was committed to the shot and the block tackle was the correct option.

Not blaming Tarkowski 100% but maybe Branthwaite would've smothered the shot?

The real issue was letting them run free into our box for both goals. We need a defensive mid sitting in front of the back four. In my opinion.

And a striker.

Not good enough for 35 minutes; then not good enough to equalise for the rest of the game. Imo, that's down to mentality.

I watched all of the game, quite simply they were better than us for half an hour and scored twice during that time. Guess what, they have better players than us.

After that, we recovered and played pretty well. The ref was not a disaster, VAR didn't intervene, no-one was assassinated, and we live to fight another day.

The booking of Dewsbury-Hall had no influence on the outcome at all and we can appeal it, can't we? Beto was pretty hopeless but I've seen us play a lot worse at Anfield. We were in the game until the end. We can take positives from it.

A poster back there just said our whole back four was useless!! Lol. Not much hope for the rest of the season then. How've we managed to keep any clean sheets up to now, I just don't know!

It tells you that the writer obviously thinks he is a bit cleverer and more insightful than the rest of us. but then proceeds to prove that is not the case.

Take this gem “quite simply they were better than us for half an hour and scored twice during that time. Guess what, they have better players than us.”

Great argument, and, on reflection, why play the game at all? Take a bow, Jimmy, and keep those pearls on wisdom coming. You might even get a book deal.

There will be some who defend him but just look at his stats. That's too often to be bad luck or "the players' fault".

Worse managers have better records against the "big boys" but Moyes will always fail. It's his Achilles Heel and it's a big one. Arteta looks like he has the same problem and where did he learn his skills?

This isn't anti-Moyes but at some point the masses need to realise and accept his massive limitation, despite his talent. We will never succeed under Moyes but the fear of failure means there will be many who still want him at the club.

Arteta learned his managerial skills under Pep, not Moyes.

And do you really think "the masses" aren't aware of this problem?

Perhaps you can enlighten us all on here with your CV of being a Professional Premier League Manager, we are all desperate to see your finest hours.

Or perhaps it was the Dog & Duck on a Sunday Morning, that was your claim to fame.

Please give it all a rest, it's a game of football to us, not a profession or a matter of life and death.

Unlike your namesake, there was nothing comedic in that post -- just common sense. A cracker!

Basically the only difference in the game was it was a local derby game where, as supporters, we expected more than a normal game.

Both managers started the game with a team they believed should get them a result. In the first half, Liverpool got the goals they wanted through mistakes made by Everton players on the pitch, not the manager on the sidelines.

The second half brought an improvement that showed that Everton are rebuilding with a promising future for the rest of the season.

It is quite easy to criticize a manger's tactics over a poor season, we have been doing it for nearly the last 10 seasons, but do it before the game starts, or be an Evertonian and back him.

The two Liverpool goals were both fortunate: the first a kind of toe-ender that had the beating of two players by good fortune (and a VAR-missed foul in the build-up) and the second involved a player running back from offside. Everton would have been denied both goals as VAR decided there was "enough" infringement to disallow.

The second half was seriously different with beautiful easy-to-convert crosses made to an effectively empty penalty area.

I have watched Salah over the years and he has a wonderful predator's understanding that the best place to be is just behind the line of defenders who are usually in a straight line to attack a cross, but who cannot turn fast enough to catch the isolated attacker with plenty of time.

However, both Beto and Barry tend to be in a line with the attackers and so have a minimal chance of being able even to connect with the ball, let alone score.

I think typically, that the best Everton player at that predatory role is the scorer, Gana Gueye who I think could score many goals if he was just drilled and drilled in shooting until he no longer leans back and gets his foot under every ball.

Unusually, I wasn't depressed by the end of the match; Everton essentially dominated most of the second half and Liverpool didn't have a single player with an ounce of the skills of Grealish, with the spectacular tacking ability of Tarkowski and Gueye, or the skill of Pickford. The commentators were going on about Graven-something as "running the match", but I saw none of that at all. Liverpool's best player, in my view was still Salah and he was, as usual, blotted out by Mykolenko.

But the biggest disappointment was when the repellent van Dijk failed, narrowly, to score an own goal past his switched-off goalkeeper. That would have been even more joyful than Tarkowski's goal last season!

I'd say Grealish has been outstanding for us so far.

Didn't he recently get Premier League Player of the Month? No mean feat considering some of the sums the "big clubs" have spent over the summer.

Don't think we can appeal against a yellow card.

Referee was a disgrace and should be dropped permanently. What a homer he was.

No doubt it will just be ignored as it was in favour of the Number 1 Sky Lovechild.

Absolutely stinks!!!

John #205 - don't understand why anyone would need their coaching badges or more specifically Premier League management experience to comment or give opinion on this site. I simply look at statistics and use that as my guide.

But I don't comment much on here because it tends to get personal; I don't understand why people need to do that.

Some Everton fans see conspiracies and media bias everywhere. The paranoia even starts weeks before the game with talk of agendas and bias before a ball is kicked.

But there's no plot. The referee wasn't a disaster, VAR didn't rob us, and there were no dark forces involved.

The truth is far less dramatic. Better opponents, missed chances, and ordinary refereeing decisions. It's not Klopp or any other ex-managers or their family members in the media, MotD, or VAR conspiring against us.

We just need to play better, take the positives, drop the paranoia, stop blaming invisible forces for every defeat, and focus on improving rather than inventing conspiracies.
But where's the fun in that?

Secondly, no media bias? The commentary by Fletcher and McCoist was so bad that for the first time ever I switched off the sound.

In the BBC's write-up on yesterday's Arsenal vs City game, they've actually managed to make the headline about the other lot. The media is obsessed with them. Phil McNulty wrote an article after two league games declaring them as having already won the league.

It's in your face every time you read the back pages, listen to the radio, watch TV or scroll through social media. It's even on the side of buses, for fuck's sake!!

We are being conditioned to accept the inevitability of their all-conquering invincibility.

My point was that we didn't lose because of the ref. It's probably my memory but I can't remember too many shocking decisions. He tried to keep the game flowing at first, respecting the nature of a derby match, didn't give out silly yellows for first challenges.

But later, like most refs do, he makes strange decisions, like the yellow for taking free kicks early. But, as said on a previous thread, we don't know whether Dewsbury-Hall had been warned before about taking them early or if he said something to the ref.

For example, these are the amounts of minutes of added on time in their games so far…….

When drawing… 7, 12, 5, 7. I assume the last one was their Champions League game last week.

When winning…. 4, 3.

You can bet your bottom dollar, had we got an equaliser before the 90th minute, then that 3 minutes of added time would have been 7 or 8 minutes.

I watched Fulham v Brentford on Saturday night and Arsenal v Man City yesterday, when both games had a minimum 7 minutes added on, despite there being very little stoppages for any injuries etc. There was a VAR check via the pitch-side screen at Fulham but that took less than 1 minute.

For fuck's sake, even during the commentary at Arsenal yesterday, Gary Neville said he wondered how much added time there will be as it seems to be a fair amount now? Not unless you're playing the shite who are winning going into added time it's not!

Listen, nobody is saying we would have got an equaliser if it had been 7 or 8 minutes, but that referee made bloody well sure we weren't going to get an opportunity of getting one.

Premier League... Corrupt as Fuck!!

You can't say he tried to keep the game flowing when he's giving out yellow cards for taking quick free kicks.

I was very surprised he got player of the month after two and a bit games in the month—- Not sure but I think voting has a lot to do with that award and if there wasn’t at least 6to 10 other players who did a lot more than Jack during that period I’d be amazed.

The only way out of this is to spend your way into the elite group.

Under TFG we have a chance of that if we handle the next few years well.

The Premier League as a genuine competition is well and truly dead.

Unless there's a rebellion from the downtrodden, humiliated, shat-upon 14, things will never change.

It will be a struggle to break into the biggest media celebrated clubs - but we are transitioning to a club the media can get on board with:

- modern stadium
- the Grealish factor (which I had under appreciated)

This will be helped by overhauling the style of play, the goals scored column etc.

With proper spending and ownership, our natural place in the pecking order is probably alongside Spurs, Newcastle and Villa -- regular European qualification, Champions League every so often, and pushing for cup trophies.

We'll never be media favourites... but we can become part of the favoured establishment.

Then, when they win something and start to look like genuine contenders to the established Champions League hierarchy, the media spends the whole summer tapping up their star striker on behalf of one of their favourites.

In the meantime, they should qualify for the Europa League (which they would be one of the favourites to win) and stand a decent chance of winning a cup.

Like Spurs (but probably not Villa), they also stand a chance of winning the title in the next 5 years.

Not quite top table but sounds good to me.

Was there one contentious VAR intervention this weekend? I don't think there was, but there were plenty of contentious refereeing decisions.

The refereeing in the derby was typical of the above. The ref let plenty go for both teams and the game was better for it. Yeah, the yellow card for Dewesbury-Hall was harsh but he may have given him specific instructions to wait until he blew before taking the free kick. He was doing that elsewhere.

When you let referees take decisions, it brings their quirks and mistakes back into play, it's the quid pro quo. We've all complained about VAR for years; I'd rather have it this way.

Re the 3 minutes added time, yeah dodgy, I will accept that, but nothing new. Fergie got his own way regarding extra time for years. These weren't the deciding factors in our game against the shite though, they were side issues amplified by some on here into something bigger. We got beat by a more clinical team is the bottom line.

However, I froze the screen at the time of the free kick. Garner looks to be in conversation with the ref. Gueye, Grealish, Ndiaye all walking away with their back to the ball. Dewsbury-Hall standing next to the ref, possibly not listening to the conversation, turns round presumably as Pickford has called him. Dewsbury-Hall now walks away back to Pickford. Next shot is of Grealish still walking away with the back to play, he turns and imagine gets a call from Dewsbury-Hall for a quick free kick. The kick is taken, the ball going towards Grealish and Garner then puts his hands up as if to say 'what's going on' presumably wondering why Dewsbury-Hall has taken the free kick when he was about to...then the ref blows walks towards where the free kick was taken, Garner, with his hand going into his pocket for the card then turns towards Dewsbury-Hall and gives him the yellow instead...

I assume the ref told Garner to wait for a whistle.. Garner may have said that he was going to take a free kick into the box, ref has gone off, not looking at the ball, but his focus is on the potential grappling in the box.

All a bit odd. It would be interesting to see whether they release any info about why the yellow was issued, possibly on Michael Owen's programme with his ref mate..but doubt it will warrant a mention as that is a programme presented by an ex red and of course, it didn't impact the result for Liverpool.

Apologies, strayed into the media are against us territory. I'll make a note not to do that again :)

The second one is that I hope you're correct and VAR is going to take a back seat and let the refs make more decisions by themselves; but, because they are making it up as they go along, week to week, do you seriously think this will happen?

Our start to the season has been okay -- nothing better, nothing worse, and I often think of a man who polarised opinion on these pages, Darren Hind, when I read the opinion of others.

Too many Evertonians get excited far too quickly, he used to say, so I will watch how things develop with my fingers crossed regarding VAR, and pray for a very important Everton victory tomorrow!

My understanding is, if there is a likely set play taking place, the ref can ask for the free kick to be taken after the whistle. I think this is the case here, as per my post above.

I thjnk Dewsbury-Hall was distracted by Pickford so didn't hear the instruction given to Garner. Just my unpopular opinion. :)

Too many Evertonians get depressed far too quickly also, Tony!

On Sunday, we didn't get started for 30 minutes, and the game was gone. Doesn't matter what your tactics, if you don't play with intensity in a derby, you'll lose. The manager's fault or the players'? Probably a bit of both.

I'll leave judgement until after Christmas, but would say we'll probably finish 10th to 12th. That'll be progress, but only slight.

A cup win would galvanise the whole club. With a number of match winners now, we can beat any team on a good day, but you need both the manager and the players believing it.

The Dewsbury-Hall booking was petty and the 3 minutes extra time stinks but I don't think those, nor the ref's performance, cost us a win. The lack of a striker cost us a win. And a tighter defensive midfield.

I'm going by what another poster quoted elsewhere as part of the rules regarding free kicks. You have to wait to take it if the ref has told you to. Happy to be told I'm wrong.

Re VAR, a definite change in approach has happened during the last two rounds of Premier League games. Whether it will last, let's wait and see. I watched MotD last night, VAR was definitely letting the refs run the games again and it was the same in the matches just before the international break.

Same feelings as you about tomorrow, let's get on with it and forget Anfield.

I have always thought waiting for the whistle is for the two examples I used above. If Everton were going to play one long, I don't know why James Garner would have to ask or tell the referee this, Ian @228?

I think it's very strange refereeing either way, and I think it's clear that the referee has just embarrassed himself!

I didn't realise we have won the cup three times when we have finished in 11th place, Liam, so hopefully we come in between your own prediction but, like you say, only if we start really believing in ourselves.

You mentioned that you used to coach, Liam, and due to the level of your players compared to some of the opposition, it sounded like you became more of a defensive type of coach.

I might be wrong with that assumption but, without watching the game on Saturday, I find it hard to believe that Everton set up defensively when I witnessed Liverpool's two goals.

Don't answer, mate, because yesterday has gone and the only thing that matters regarding Everton right now is tomorrow.

No yellow card for Bradley's 90 minutes of persistent fouling yet Ndiaye gets a yellow for tapping their guy on the shoulder.

And don't get me started on what would have happened of the Van Dijk - Tarlowski thing in their penalty area had been the other way around.

Let's just look ahead to the games coming up.

And I saw other worse mistakes in other games on MotD.

I stick with my opinion -- they didn't cost us the game.

I'm playing in a footy tournament next weekend in the Algarve and several of my team mates are reds. I'm definitely not going to play the biased ref card when they start. I'd just look petty.

“We'll never be media favourites... but we can become part of the favoured establishment.”

Reminded me of something my Dad (God rest his soul) said to me in the sixties:-

“They don't like us much, do they, Laurie?”

I can't remember the exact context but he was referring to the TV and newspaper commentators of the time.

So nothing has changed in that regard. With all due respect to your point of view, I hope we never become part of the “favoured establishment”. I would much rather we fought and battled our way back to the top and I think we can.

I think we have already won three of those battles by avoiding relegation twice and moving into a new stadium - despite the points deductions!

I was very disappointed with the derby result -- I thought we would get something out of it. But we will get over it. “What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!”

Our day will come because of who we are.