Staying or Moving ? A Fan's Experience of Our Current Situation

Unlucky there Matthew (and your lads). You all (and all other blues) certainly deserve far better. Here’s hoping you (and we) get it ASAP, whether at a redeveloped GP or the state of the art new stadium up the road in L32, Kirkby. If planning for the Kirkby stadium gets the green light (and is therefore not ’called in’) in a couple months time, I understand building work will commence later this year, with stadium ready for the Blues Boys to march out at the start of the new season in just two seasons time. If we keep the rate of progress going, we could also be welcoming teams like Bayern Munich, Real Madrid etc when we have Champions League night games. Lets make the new history to be written in the new era even more illustrious than what has gone before. How glad your lads will be then to be new generation blue boys :-) Lets give fresh meaning to Nil Satis Nisi Optimum and the financial rewards and increasing fan base could mean the new stadium gets extended to 70,000 capacity and sold out every week! Expectation is a self fulfilling prophesy, lets not sell ourselves short. Moyes believes, BK believes, KW believes, Big Joleon and the Yak et al beliebes, LETS ALL BELIEVE and MAKE IT HAPPEN!!!COME ON YOU BLUES!!!!!!!!

Given the continued deathening silence from Bestway and Cllr Bradley to the claim that the Loop is not big enough - we can finally call ithe Loop what is always was - A very, very Blue Herring designed to spoil the Kirkby ballot. Even the latest KEIOC statement implies that those for the Loop want a study to see if it can fit 55,000 people.

Sorry, I thought that had been "proved" already.

Your story, more than anything clearly states to me the reason why we either need to move, or re-develop Goodison Park, If Goodison is re-developed, it needs to be able to be expanded to match our future growing ambitions (70,000 in years to come)

Kirby in terms of funding and the ability to expand the stadia in the future is ideal, which no other place in the City Boundaries can realistically match, or where we can get funding.

I?m just glad that we can now have a "realistic discussion" over Goodison Park or Kirkby, without Blue Herrings getting in the way.

Mathew, what a shocking view you and your lads had. The rear of the lower bullens is without doubt the worst place in the ground and I totaly agree that something needs to be done soon.
Having said that moving to Kirkby is not the answer for reasons that have been debated on here for the last twelve months. It makes me feel very sad that our fate seems to be in the hands of the project being called in due to objections or a rival bid by asda that dosn’t include a stadium.
If only the yes voters had the forsight to see a majority no vote would have forced Kenwright to look at other options.
My feelings are that Kenwright has been badly advised all the way, but at the end of the day it is his decision. I only wish he would come to his senses and stand up and put a stop to this nonsense.
Micheal hunt are you still pissed from last night?

A great post Matthew. Hope your lads are still blues after all this. I’ve had similar experiences with my lads over the years and we now avoid "letterbox world" like he plague when we are booking tickets. Some of the views at GP are appalling and to get a quid off a ticket for restricted view is disgraceful. Believe me, there are many worse spots around the ground than the one you’ve had! I’ve been a wanderer around the ground for a few years since having to give up my season ticket and can say that If you’ve got kids who like to be close to the action the best place to sit- without season tickets (if you can’t get in the family enclosure)is the Gladwys St corner of the Paddock. I’ve compiled a little list of seats to avoid which we have put together over years of booking crap seats and I will post this on here at the end of the season when I will get a season ticket back and so not be competing with the rest of the people booking tickets. The club will probably sue me. What’s always amazed me is that we still mostly get close to a full house week after week.

Kevin, I?m not pissed blue, just optimistic that we can step out of the shadow of the RS and dine at the top table of domestic and European football again. With sound and stable management, a young and improving side, backed by a growing and united fanbase I believe it is readily acheivable in the near future. Bring it on!

Guys a successful team would self fund a redevelopment of GP. I have been forced to sit in the lower bullens once, for the ill fated champions league game against Villareal as my Park End seat had already gone. My legs could hardly deal with it and also had a post in front of me, this should have been dealt with fifteen years ago.

I cant see Kirkby ever dealing with 70k fans as I’ve been to Old Trafford recently with 70+k fans and better roads out, it still took over an hour to get back to the M60, shudder when I think of majority of 50k waiting like sheep for a bus in all weathers.

Matthew,
These are hopeless views, and they should be half-price at most. Of course it stems from the fact that this is a converted terrace, cheap views for people who could move about and choose their spec to suit themselves. It’s a bit swings and roundabouts though since the supporting structure has afforded the patrons of the upper tier (certainly the first 10rows, if not themselves obstructed) some of the best views of a football pitch in the country, with viewing angles and distances better than anything at a similar height in say the emirates even. However it has to be said that the letterbox effect represents only a few hundred seats out of a total of 40,500, ie the rear 2-4 rows of the lower Bullens, rear 2-4 rows lower Gwladys and rear 4 rows of the mainstand at the church end of this structure. You will have noticed that by decending just a few rows things opened up quite quickly. Therefore by reprofiling the lower Bullens to combine with the paddock, and to end at the second row of supporting columns, the pathway at the rear of the paddock will be now occupied with totally unobstructed seats to compensate with the loss of capacity at the rear of this new lower tier. At the same time further rows could be added at the rear of an extended Upper Bullens with a new roof and extended concourse. There would then be no obstructions in the upper tier, and a greatly reduced number in the lower. This would be at a fraction of the cost of a new stand, with history and iconic Leitch balcony preserved. On the mainstand side an executive tier could be suspended beneath the top balcony, and the rearmost rows at the church end dispensed with, and the mainstand continued down to pitch level. Back of the Gwladys street lower, tickets for just £10, £5 for kids, to be sold on the day, or when all other tickets gone, I guarantee there will be people fighting for them. There are lots of solutions that negate the need to run to Kirkby where the viewing distances will be as big as they can be for the capacity, not to mention the bus queues, potential loss of identity and heritage.

Oh Matthew, how I sympathise with you and your boys, it must have been such a let down. As much as I love Goodison and am loathe to leave there, I fail to see how it can remain to be viable in its current format. I am fortunate that my season ticket is in a great seat in the Park End but I have sat in some awful seats in the past and have walked out of the ground not having seen any decent action never mind a goal, but as a kid in the Gwladys before it was seated I?d have to get into the ground at about 1:30 to maybe get a decent ? spec ? if I was lucky, but those days should be well and truly over. I was a No voter, on nostalgic grounds, and I still hold out a hope that GP can be refurbished, the sooner the better.

Mathew, I completely empathise with you mate. I used to sit in the Lower Bullens with my dad and Grandad (God rest his soul) back in the seventies, not right at the back but near it and the views were awful, I refuse to go in there now. Although I do have one fantastic memory of those seats that I will never forget and that was when Andy King scored against the Dark Side, my dad chucked me in the air and I actually grabbed hold of the metal roof supports for the Upper Bullens and was dangling there for what seemed like ages until I dropped down and my dad caught me again.

The Lower Bullens and back of the Gwladys Street are a disgrace and it amazes me anyone every goes back there, it also amazes me that we get nearly 40,000 every game with these seats on offer, something has to be done.

Believe it or not, Chelsea’s redeveloped shed end has similar seats in the lower tier. I was there for the semi-final first leg and the views from the back 4 rows were just like the Lower Bullens, now that is unforgivable for a new stand but shows the kind of compromises that might have to be taken if Goodison were to be redeveloped and the capacity increased.

Matthew that is a shame for you and your lads but the Lower Bullens has always been the worst seats in the house. There are some seriously bad specks in the ground but there has been for many years and the Board have been fully aware of it for years as well.

In all honesty Matthew when football started to move on with the launch of the Premier League, money etc most club?s moved with the time?s as well. Sadly our football club stood still and this Kirkby disaster has arisen purely because we have had a totally inept Board for the last 15 years and they have no other option but to take this handout off Tesco.

Everton?s current average gate in all competitions is around 36,500. This perceived wisdom within the Everton board that a ?new stadium affect? would add 15,000 to this figure is more in hope than fact. If this is the case then clearly the 55,000 seater stadium that HOK Sport confirms can be built on the Scotland Road Gateway is more than adequate for the present and future needs of Everton Football Club.

The dismissal of this opportunity and other options leaves open to question Mr Kenwright?s tenure as custodian of this great club. He must do everything in his power to ensure that Everton remain a Big Club in a Big City.

Never has the club entered into meaningful and transparent dialogue with all parties concerned bringing about a redeveloped Goodison Park or an iconic Scotland Road gateway stadium development, the finances behind which have never been explored just Wyness?s opinion that it is not possible. This man being the CEO of yet another set of disastrous annual accounts, for which he alone is responsible, and a massive increase in the clubs overdraft in August 2007.

For him now to use this "restricted views" (something they have been aware for decades) as part of this embarrassing spin of ?this is why we have to move? and the promotion of a truly atrocious stadium development and the leaving of the city of our birth, the European capital of culture and the home of Everton Football Club is the final straw for me.

I would gladly have a season ticket in the Lower Bullens for the next few years if it meant this Kirkby project was abandoned and we remained in the city. After following Everton for over 50 years never have I been so worried about the club?s future and leaving the city will divide the fanbase for ever.

Me, I?ll never set foot in that Kirkby stadium no matter how modern it is and how good the facilities are. It won?t be the same club anymore for me and speaking to other fan?s they feel the same as well.

Much rather sit behind a post in a crumbling Goodison than sit in a supermarket carpark on a retail park in the middle of nowhere. Goodison Park is in a bad state as modern stadiums go but there is no reason why we must take the Kirkby route. Only misery awaits us if we ever do go there.

Tony Marsh, I have read a lot of your articles lately and too many people are completely pissed off with your approach/ideology of The Blues and your ideas... but fuck them all. We all have a say. However, this god-forsaken ground move will go on and on and if it happens to go ahead in Kirkby, well quite literally, we?re fucked in the long term. Agree with the shite views at Goodison but why change? L4 4EL or L32 wilderness with tumbleweed blowing around under the stand at half time???
IYKYH........................

Tony Marsh... Misery does not await you..misery reached you years ago and decided to stay...

Very good article Matthew. I think 10,000 obstructive seats says it all about the old lady and flattening the place to build a fresh new stadium (which I think would be required) just isn’t financially viable - and I certainly don’t want to share with the RS for a couple of seasons - Jeez hell would have to freeze over before that could be an option for me. No - we have a fantastic stadium development proposal just rarin’ to go that fits the criteria for our club and is deliverable - just 4 miles away in a strong scouse area, 50,000 seats (Extendable to 60,000) and a big built-in museum/stadium tour and megastore.

Be honest, Matthew; were you sitting down when you took those photos?

I posted that Misery does not await Tony Marsh..but has already found him..and its been removed..!!!! OTT CENSORSHIP..

God forbid you disagree with the editors darling...But Marsh can call all and sundry what he likes.

I posted that Misery does not await Tony Marsh..but has already found him..and its been removed..!!!! OTT CENSORSHIP..

God forbid you disagree with the editors darling...But Marsh can call all and sundry what he likes.

I posted that Misery does not await Tony Marsh..but has already found him..and its been removed..!!!! OTT CENSORSHIP..

God forbid you disagree with the editors darling...But Marsh can call all and sundry what he likes.

Terry - Marsh posted that another poster (lil? old me) should be ?taken out and shot and I really mean that? the other week and alls that happened was his post was edited! When it should have got deleted and his posting privileges curtailed. There certainly is censorship going on here - I currently have to post through a proxy IP - because of the ridiculous OTT censorship despite the fact I never swear or threaten anyone. Truly ridiculous!

Matthew, I hope your lads become good evertonians just like their dad but your post has touched on a topic which isn?t going to go away.
I?ve just read a brilliant post by Jay Campbell and yet another thoroughly sensible post from Tom Hughes.
I too, think that if we leave Liverpool we are giving up something we can never get back. It will haunt us as long as there is an Everton Football Club. I just cannot believe that we could even contemplate leaving this city and leave it to our bloody offspring.
Ideally, the Albert Dock site would have catapulted us onto the world stage and especially during the Capitol of Culture year.
Still, for one reason or another, we lost that opportunity but at least we are still in the city, for now!!
I can only blame one person for the decision to leave the city even though it was supposed to be a democratic decision by the fans.

We were left to make up our minds up on the basis of "Oh here?s a nice new stadium that Tesco will help us build and it?ll cost us hardly anything. Or we can stay at Goodison Park and watch it crumble round our heads because that nasty City council won?t give us anywhere else." Well the City council gave us the Kings Dock and it was only our club who buggered it up.
Even now there are alternatives but Mr Kenwright won?t listen.
So, I suppose each fan has to make his/her own mind up. I?m with Jay here, I won?t be going to Kirkby. Mr Kenwright has engineered a situation where the fans have felt there was no alternative. At the same time he has nicely absolved himself of the resposibility for moving out of this city. He can say "The fans have chosen." Total twaddle! and a total betrayal of all who made Everton great in the past.

I have read with interest over the past weeks the punching and counterpunching of thise two heavyweights Tony Marsh and Terry Maddocks,
Tonight tony comes out with another blinkered view and was answered by Terry MaddocksIwaited with baited breath for the usual tit for tat slanging match, only to look later and all Terry’s posts had been deleted, is there some sort of censorship on this board that if you do not agree with the main players you are relagated.
thank god the premiereship isnt run this way

I?m not sure where the investment will come from for redeveloping Goodison or moving to the Loop, so those who keep advocating these ?choices? would they please state where the money is coming from?

The original article quite succinctly puts to bed the NO arguments, ad why you may ask.. It?s because the youngsters who don?t have any deepseated love for GP like the rest of us will not put up with bad facilities (ergo we don?t ever sell out).. We have to move, the sooner the better.

Unluky with the seats Matthew, hope it does not deter you boys from supporting the blues over Villa/Brum. I think I sat in those exact seats against United last season and they are an absolute disgrace.

I don’t want to go to a retail park in Kirby, but what alot of people don’t seem to realise is that the actual stadium isnt going to be like Eastlands, JJB or Reebok with no attmosphere, its design is much better than them when it comes to attmosphere.

Alex,
The club themselves have said that this will cost us £80-100m. Where is that coming from? To get to the same capacity as Kirkby, a new 15,000 seater Parkend can be built for much less than our outlay for Kirkby. Much of the other failings of GP can be dealt with incrementally, and as we can afford it. Therefore if you advocate Kirkby for financial reasons, by definition you have to acknowledge the financial viability of staying....... and as I keep saying: also avoiding the various potential costs to identity, heritage, and all the transport uncertainties that Kirkby proposal entails.

In the absence of a response (that’s not a criticism, for I’m well aware that we all have lives to lead and can’t sit monitoring Toffeeweb 24/7 for thread developments), I’d like to put the motivation for my very pointed question into a little more context.

If you were sitting down when you took those photos, Matthew, then you must, must surely make a concerted complaint to the Club (I’m assuming you haven’t already done so because you would have said so), for those "views", as most have said, are shocking.

Not only that, though, I think that, in terms of the "products" you purchased for that game v City (i.e. match tickets, at full price, to "see" the game) the club is in direct breach of Trading Standards.

Therefore, you simply must complain in writing to EFC, copying-in Trading Standards, enclosing your images and your ticket stubs.

For if this was the seated view that you and your boys had, then the club has no defence and is obliged to offer you a full refund.

No question about it.

Moreover, the club must also then reassess its policy on obstructed views for it is clearly failing.

I may be wrong, but I thought that all Premier League clubs were duty bound to mark all obstructed view tickets with words to that effect.

Further, I was of the impression that the term "obstructed view" (certainly as far as EFC is concerned) refers specifically to patrons’ sightlines of each or either of the two goals (it doesn’t take into account not being able to see part of the mid-pitch due to a stanchion).

Specifically, I thought a seat (key word) had to be marked as "obstructed view" if any portion of either of the goals could not be seen.

I was under the impression - after having asked this question of EFC repeatedly over the last 12 years and having also seen a "map" of all of Goodison’s "OV" seats - that every seat in the ground had been assessed carefully in this regard.

It would appear that they have failed woefully in this regard concerning LB3, Row R, Seats 144-6; for it would appear that it would not even be enough to mark those tickets as "obstructed view", or even offer them half-price.

Because in your bottom photo you can’t even see any of the Park End goal. You also can’t see a good 30pc of the Street End goal. Not only that you can’t even see beyond the centre circle in either of the photos and I think you are being generous when you say it was a "challenge" trying to see the far touch line on Goodison Road.

For I would say that, from your seated evidence, it would be impossible, not just a "challenge", to see the far touch line.

I think you’re being even more understated when you say that, on standing, it’s "impossible" to see the far touch line; for if this is what your view was like whilst you were seated then I suspect it would impossible, upon standing, to see the NEARSIDE touchline, let alone the far one.

In fact, it’s surprising that you say you had to provide your boys with a running commentary of the game for I would have suspected, from their lower vantage point, they’d have been better placed to provide you with such because it’s plainly obvious that you wouldn’t have been able to see any aspect of Lescott’s winner - not even the corner routine and then cross from Arteta to Neville back to Arteta (although, I note, you didn’t actually say that you couldn’t see the goal, though).

Frankly, that’s just not good enough to pay so much money to witness a game that ends in a 1.0 result and you can’t even the structure into which the solitary goal is scored.

Therefore I implore you to complain vehemently to the club and I would go further and would hope that you make Toffeewebbers privy to the letter of complaint that you submit to the club (and presumably the profuse apology you will undoubtedly receive, along with, I’d hope, a full refund and perhaps three complimentaries for a future game - can but hope!).

I hope you will agree to that request, Matthew.
As an arch "no" voter (however one, I would hope, who has proven on this forum that he has respect for opposing views) I am acutely aware that I could be shooting myself in the foot by asking you to complain vociferously to the club.

For undoubtedly the club can use such evidence to support its view that EFC must leave Goodison Park (surprised it hasn’t done so).

However, as much as I am a "no" man to the very core of my being and all too aware of how (I believe) the club has manipulated, spun and distorted the whole emotive subject of the putative ground move, this is no time for polemics.

Because the views you have shown from your seat (sic) are beyond distortion and even if the club were wont to manipulate matters, these photos speak for themselves and frankly they should never have been sold to you (you should have supplied the photos of the "standing" view too so as we could all have had a laugh at the extent of the stroke the club has obviously been trying to pull in selling such tickets - "scouse humour and all that!").

What is more worrying, though, is that, to my thinking anyway (but maybe more expert minds than mine on the subject, like Tom Hughes, can clarify things) it can’t just be seats 144-6 in Row R of the LB that are affected.

For I’m incredibly well versed with the Lower Bullens having held a season ticket there (in several areas) for many years in the late 70s, early 80s and then the early 90s up to 1994 before the Park End stand was built.

Indeed, like your boys, one of my very first visits to Goodison - and certainly my first FA Cup tie - was in the Lower Bullens for a 5th Rd tie versus Tottenham on Feb 26th 1972 (just too late for Bally!) when 50,511 saw Alan Gilzean and Martin Peters dump us out of the competition.

Despite the result, I have to say that I absolutely loved the occasion and was mesmerised by every aspect of the heaving Lower Bullens stand which seemed to capture and contain (pretty literally given its dimensions) every morsel of the atmosphere that day.

I appreciate, though, that kids of yesteryear were all too easily pleased and no apologies should be made for the more discerning younger customers of today (hey, I even fell hook-line-and-sinker for my father’s cleverly spun blow-softening line that I shouldn’t be too upset at losing because Martin Peters even "scored in a World Cup Final" - how easily kids could be fobbed-off then, hey!).

All told, I sat in three different season ticketed areas of the LB over the years and watched many a game from the very back row (including some of my greatest EFC memories such as the Eamonn O’Keefe, Southampton night in 1981 - and the heart-sapping 4-4 draw with Liverpool in 1991) and I only left it in 1994 after witnessing the Wimbledon relegation nail-biter from there in 1994 for two reasons: a clean break on a purely superstitious basis (because I actually hadn’t sat in the LB during the glory years of the mid-80s and we only started to go down the pan again when I moved back there...stupid, I know, but even when I moved to the Park End we immediately went and won the cup; and secondly because, shall we say, the aromas around the rear of the stand had become a little too "leafy" for my liking!

So, I know that stand well. And if your photo evidence of the seated view from the rear of the stand circa 144-46 is as irrefutable as it seems, then I can’t see how the situation could be any better anywhere along the back row (or even the rows in front).

It’s strange that I don’t recall not being able to see none of the Park End goal and indeed only parts of the Street End goal (but memories do play tricks - although I clearly recall being able to see Graham Stuart convert that crucial Park End penalty versus Wimbledon in 1994).

So it would seem that Everton are currently selling at least one whole row (the entire length of Row R in the LB) under false pretences and perhaps even two or three more rows in much the same way.

I’d even go as far to say that it’s illegal to do so without at least warning patrons.

It’s odd that no-one since circa 1968 when the Lower Bullens became a seated area (Tom Hughes will clarify that, though) has brought this problem to the club’s attention and even more indefensible that the club failed to spot these obstructed (nay, obliterated) views when it assessed every seat in the ground for that criterion.

However, like declaring the Emperor is naked, it only takes one person to finally dare to tell the truth and I think it should be you, Matthew.

I’m glad, actually, that you’ve brought it to our attention in the accurate way you that have and that you have not sought to distort the evidence in order to conveniently hang a pro-move, Goodison-bashing argument from it.

So, how about keeping us posted, Matthew and keeping us abreast of your complaint to the Club and its (hopefully contrite) response?

Keep coming to Goodison, though, and don’t be deterred (the lads will be mesmerised by the Top Balcony!)

And if you ever wish to meet up (always good to make new Blue acquaintances) you can always find me in the Spellow pre-game (always near to the Bobby Moore 1966 picture). Just ask around (anyway I should be easy to spot because I’ve variously been described by my unreconstructed friends as looking like someone you wouldn’t buy a car off or that I should be wandering the desert in a caravan looking for the nearest bazaar from which to sell dodgy rugs - not exactly North European in appearance).

Good luck, Matthew.

Greg,
I’m no expert, just a concerned blue like yourself. I did a sightline study of the whole ground, I didn’t look at vertical clearance on this side though. It seems amazing that a former terrace wouldn’t afford views to people while standing though. Having taken a further look at the pics, Matthew is clearly standing, and it would appear quite elevated compared to those ahead of him. The other thing is you can see the supports for the old balcony front TV gantry on the underside of the upper tier. This runs for a few meters either side of the half way line where matthew is photographing from. However, it looks a good foot or so lower than the actual upper stands lowest edge. This is critical as it greatly reduces the viewing window for those towards the rear of the lower Bullens. The TV gantry or the rear rows in this vicinity need to be removed if the actual view is as shown. Or the wholesale changes I mentioned above would completely avert these problems and the area at the back used for improved toilets/concessions etc. Personally, I love the fabric of these old stands. My dad’s first job was apprentice riveter/fitter on this stand, and it’s the first place he took me. It’s a Leitch classic.