FAN ARTICLES
Future/Progress — Realism
By Andy Lee : 10/06/2011 : 
Comments (60) :
Comments (60) : This may not be the most popular argument on our situation but I think we have to now be realistic and plan for the future. Everton Football Club has many issues such as an old stadium, increasing debt, etc. Being realistic no one is going to come in and buy the club and build a new ground and wipe out the debt, this would take the best part of £500 million which will not happen. We can try what we are currently doing, which is to tread water and hope that our excellent (though not without his faults) manager keeps getting the most out of our squad and finish in the top 8. This will mean the debt slowly increases with player wages, interest etc and we still have a poor stadium and increasing debt.
In my opinion we have to be realistic and look to progress. In my opinion without a wealthy benefactor coming in the only way is to sell assets, and the only ones we have are players and work on bringing the debt down and rebuilding parts, if not all of the stadium one step at a time. This will mean sacrificing going for the top 4 for several years and we would have to work harder and harder but it would mean actually progressing the club in some way ? as we are the situation is not improving any time soon.
A way of doing this would be to move on certain star names for premium money £20m plus, possibly one per season, sometimes two. Now this would have to be done in way where the proceeds can then be split into team rebuilding (a small amount, but enough for Moyes to try and get more championship rabbits out of the hat), debt servicing and paying off and then working on the stadium.
With there being no progress on the stadium surely we should look at doing something at the Park End with money generated from player sales. Admittedly we may not be able to develop all of Goodison, but a two-tier Park End stand which goes back into the car park space would be able to provide more revenue from corporate facilities. Even the proposed retail development could be factored into one large development. There could even be room left to move the pitch slightly (as from the designs shown on various websites on rebuilding Goodison) in the future to incorporate further developments.
At least this way we could look to actually improve the facilities and money making power of the club for the future rather than standing still and the stadium getting worse and worse. I know that this would be a difficult way, but surely to progress without funding it would be the only way. The squad we have now is at various ages and we could quite feasibly gain a big fee every season for the next 3-4 years.
We have to accept that we are a selling club but need to improve. We have a manager who is arguably better at picking up bargains than spending big money and I think this could work. It would also require the manager to be more flexible and not stubborn in trying to keep all of his players. Admirable that may be, but if one of the big boys come in with money it is pretty much inevitable this days that the player will leave. It could also help us for future generations of Evertonians. Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated.
Reader Comments (60)
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Michael Evans
2 Posted 10/06/2011 at 19:00:08
2 Posted 10/06/2011 at 19:00:08
Just a thought - If we sell off the "Crown Jewels" won't that increase the chance of us being relegated ?
Doesn't this "relegation thingy" cost clubs a lot of money thereby increasing the creek and paddle paddle situation ?
Realism is a bitch isn't it ?
Lyndon Lloyd
3 Posted 10/06/2011 at 19:47:34
3 Posted 10/06/2011 at 19:47:34
I was going to pen a similar article myself but in response to Michael Evans: If, for example, we sold Rodwell and Fellaini for £20m apiece and (after the banks took half) bought four decent players that Moyes could work his motivational powers on, do you think we'd get relegated?
We secured a 7th-place finish without Fellaini and with Rodwell struggling to make much of an impact in midfield.
I agree with the main thrust of Andy's article ? i.e. without significant investment, there is no other alternative than to sell players for big money to fund future player purchases. As galling as that is, it's where we are.
We secured a 7th-place finish without Fellaini and with Rodwell struggling to make much of an impact in midfield.
I agree with the main thrust of Andy's article ? i.e. without significant investment, there is no other alternative than to sell players for big money to fund future player purchases. As galling as that is, it's where we are.
Jimmy Sorheim
4 Posted 10/06/2011 at 19:45:27
4 Posted 10/06/2011 at 19:45:27
I agree some long term plan has to be set, regardless of an incoming investor.
I support the current strategy on a short term basis, we could wait another 2 years to see if we will be able to get into europe. Also we would have to spend money each year on players in order to be competitive both in europe and at home. A Leauge place of somewhere between 4th and 7th would be a must, as would winning or progressing in another cup final each year.
We will have to sell a player like Rodwell this season in order for us to reach those short term goals, there is no doubt about that. And while some would be against selling off our homegrown talent we have to keep in mind that we have paid no transfer fee, therefore the money that comes from a sale of a homegrown player will be considered a pure BONUS. Also 20 million or so for Rodwell at this time must be considered a gold mine. With this 20 million we could buy a top class striker and maybe have a little left afterwards. Now for the long term plan, if we do not sucseed in our short term plan in the next 2-3 years than selling off players would have to be mandatory. We cant be selling all at once, nor do I think it would be possible, but one or two first team players a season would make sense. Of course to do this we would have to be getting new ones in, free transfers and new players like Coleman and Vellios for a cheap price. We will still have to nurture youngsters like we always have, but it would mean they would get more game time than today! It all depends on the choice of David Moyes, and he will be forced to do this sonner or later if we dont reach europe every year!
I support the current strategy on a short term basis, we could wait another 2 years to see if we will be able to get into europe. Also we would have to spend money each year on players in order to be competitive both in europe and at home. A Leauge place of somewhere between 4th and 7th would be a must, as would winning or progressing in another cup final each year.
We will have to sell a player like Rodwell this season in order for us to reach those short term goals, there is no doubt about that. And while some would be against selling off our homegrown talent we have to keep in mind that we have paid no transfer fee, therefore the money that comes from a sale of a homegrown player will be considered a pure BONUS. Also 20 million or so for Rodwell at this time must be considered a gold mine. With this 20 million we could buy a top class striker and maybe have a little left afterwards. Now for the long term plan, if we do not sucseed in our short term plan in the next 2-3 years than selling off players would have to be mandatory. We cant be selling all at once, nor do I think it would be possible, but one or two first team players a season would make sense. Of course to do this we would have to be getting new ones in, free transfers and new players like Coleman and Vellios for a cheap price. We will still have to nurture youngsters like we always have, but it would mean they would get more game time than today! It all depends on the choice of David Moyes, and he will be forced to do this sonner or later if we dont reach europe every year!
Mark Browne
5 Posted 10/06/2011 at 20:26:43
5 Posted 10/06/2011 at 20:26:43
People talk about selling Rodwell all too easily in my opinion. Fellaini is into his last year on his contract, and if we do not want another Peinaar situation, then he will go for peanuts (no pun). If Fellaini is not going to sign then we must give him a deadline ie end of July, to sign or sell him. To sell Rodwell, and then if Fellaini does not sign would be a disaster for us, even though their absences/performances the season just gone have not been anything to write about. You are correct that we have to accept that one major player may leave each season, and the signs coming from Goodison is that Moyes has to sell before he can buy, which means that probably one of Fellaini/Rodwell has to go. However let us make sure that we do not cock-up and sell Rodwell, however much he brings in, and then Fellaini decides not to sign and we lose him at the same time. That would be worse than the Gosling fiasco.
Brian Lawlor
6 Posted 10/06/2011 at 20:43:28
6 Posted 10/06/2011 at 20:43:28
Fellaini is not in to his last year of his contract. He has 2 years and 3 months left (sept 2013).
If he hasn't signed a new contract by next summer, or possibly even January he should be sold as we really can't afford to lose what would be mega money. Personally I hope the big fella is around for many years to come.
If he hasn't signed a new contract by next summer, or possibly even January he should be sold as we really can't afford to lose what would be mega money. Personally I hope the big fella is around for many years to come.
Andy Lee
7 Posted 10/06/2011 at 21:45:18
7 Posted 10/06/2011 at 21:45:18
Hi Ray,
Being realistic, kenwright is going to want at least £100m for the club, the debt is around 75-80 million and by all accounts a new stadium would be £250-£300 million. Then there would need to be money set aside for players so yes you are looking at approx £500m.
Also getting into Europa is really of no benefit, we need a larger squad so would need to buy and pay more players. You also have more games which causes problems with small squads like ours and the club makes next to no money from it. This is my argument for starting this process now and not in 2-3 Years time when some of the players values will have waned.
Being realistic, kenwright is going to want at least £100m for the club, the debt is around 75-80 million and by all accounts a new stadium would be £250-£300 million. Then there would need to be money set aside for players so yes you are looking at approx £500m.
Also getting into Europa is really of no benefit, we need a larger squad so would need to buy and pay more players. You also have more games which causes problems with small squads like ours and the club makes next to no money from it. This is my argument for starting this process now and not in 2-3 Years time when some of the players values will have waned.
James Flynn
8 Posted 10/06/2011 at 21:35:52
8 Posted 10/06/2011 at 21:35:52
Has it occured to anyone that Moyes is building a team to keep climbling? That's what I see.
Of course, it sucks he doesn't have the funds to pull the trigger on a major stirker signing. But if he had (say Close), wouldn't the pay structure in place be de-stabilized? He's got to make do with what he has. But the "make do" is pretty good.
If the offerings for Jags are realistic; good-bye, thanks, and best of luck. A good fellow. But no great loss and we get a nice dollar in.
Of course, it sucks he doesn't have the funds to pull the trigger on a major stirker signing. But if he had (say Close), wouldn't the pay structure in place be de-stabilized? He's got to make do with what he has. But the "make do" is pretty good.
If the offerings for Jags are realistic; good-bye, thanks, and best of luck. A good fellow. But no great loss and we get a nice dollar in.
Dennis Stevens
9 Posted 10/06/2011 at 22:13:04
9 Posted 10/06/2011 at 22:13:04
Andy, I doubt the club will ever be sold to new owners at the sort of price you quote - a more 'realistic' value is probably about half that figure. The new owner would inherit the debts built up under the current regime but wouldn't necessarily have to clear them upon taking over the club. Likewise, regarding stadium redevelopment or rebuild - it doesn't have to be done straight away, if at all, & may even be planned as part of a phased redevelopment driven by affordability & demand over a period of some years. There's also no guarantee that any new owner will hand Moyes, or his successor, a blank cheque for squad development. So, a takeover of the club could initially cost about a tenth of the figure you quote - there's always the option to spend more once you've gained control of the club. Alternatively new owners might not put a penny into the club - same as the current Board.
Richard Dodd
10 Posted 10/06/2011 at 23:07:20
10 Posted 10/06/2011 at 23:07:20
Or we could let BB get on with the job he`s been doing exceedingly well for all of ten years. Like keeping the Club in business and leaving Davey alone to weave his magic and maintain our place at the top end of the table!
Jay Harris
11 Posted 11/06/2011 at 00:37:20
11 Posted 11/06/2011 at 00:37:20
I have a major fundamental disagreement with your post Andy.
With around £1 million a place in the prem and the world awash with potential commercial income for TOP premier league clubs there has never been a better opportunity to invest especially with the looming legislation over club's finances which should start a downward spiral in players wages and transfer values.
Kenwright's main failing IMO (besides his appetite for deceipt) has been a toatal financial mismanagement of the clubs operations besides paying a crooked Chief exec £0.5 million a year and an average manager almost £4 million a year.
Before Kenwright's tenure we had virtually no debt and were making operating profits but in Kenwright's 10 years we have consistently made operating losses every year (except when Rooney was sold) and now have record debts requiring major interest repayments and have also developed something called miscellaneous operating expenses amounting to £20 million a year.
Unlike you the action I would take is to hound this incompetent charlatan and his cronies into selling up or at the very least having a rights issue which would get the club around £15 to 20 million (enough to get the extra 8500 capacity in the Park end).
With around £1 million a place in the prem and the world awash with potential commercial income for TOP premier league clubs there has never been a better opportunity to invest especially with the looming legislation over club's finances which should start a downward spiral in players wages and transfer values.
Kenwright's main failing IMO (besides his appetite for deceipt) has been a toatal financial mismanagement of the clubs operations besides paying a crooked Chief exec £0.5 million a year and an average manager almost £4 million a year.
Before Kenwright's tenure we had virtually no debt and were making operating profits but in Kenwright's 10 years we have consistently made operating losses every year (except when Rooney was sold) and now have record debts requiring major interest repayments and have also developed something called miscellaneous operating expenses amounting to £20 million a year.
Unlike you the action I would take is to hound this incompetent charlatan and his cronies into selling up or at the very least having a rights issue which would get the club around £15 to 20 million (enough to get the extra 8500 capacity in the Park end).
Eric Myles
12 Posted 11/06/2011 at 01:46:25
12 Posted 11/06/2011 at 01:46:25
Lyndon, yes selling £20 million players and buyin 3 or 4 players with the money may work, but that's not what Andy said.
Andy proposes using the majority of the money to pay off debt and rebuild Goodison by selling one or two of our £20 million players each year for the next 3 to 4 years.
Just how many £20 million players do you think we have? Bar a Dick Turpin act by Moyes on City (like Lescott), I count nil that we could reasonably expect to get that sort of money, never mind 4 to 8.
Andy proposes using the majority of the money to pay off debt and rebuild Goodison by selling one or two of our £20 million players each year for the next 3 to 4 years.
Just how many £20 million players do you think we have? Bar a Dick Turpin act by Moyes on City (like Lescott), I count nil that we could reasonably expect to get that sort of money, never mind 4 to 8.
Eric Myles
13 Posted 11/06/2011 at 01:56:30
13 Posted 11/06/2011 at 01:56:30
Dennis #8, if you think The Club is for sale for £50 million don't you think it would have been sold by now?
David Barks
14 Posted 11/06/2011 at 04:23:52
14 Posted 11/06/2011 at 04:23:52
#5 Mark,
This point needs to be clarified before everybody gets it wrong all Summer. Fellaini is not into the last year of his contract. He arrived in September 2008 and signed a 5 year deal. So he has played 3 seasons for us, still has two years left. Not a Pienaar situation.
As for the main point of the post. I generally agree, selling one marquee player in order to add multiple would be wise. But I wouldn't sell either Fellaini or Rodwell. Rodwell has far too big of an upside. And Fellaini has turned into a star and will be back fully healthy to start next season, looking for a big contract so he will be motivated.
I say defense is where we can sell and I think the player with the best ratio of value/replacability is Jagielka. If Wenger is desperate for a defender and is finally willing to spend I say we let Jagielka move on to the Champions League and give the Distin/Heitinga partnership a go. We could bring in a decent CB for cover with some of the funds, while using the majority for a quality play maker in the midfield. Someone who can get wide and add some pace. But keep Fellaini and Rodwell, let Fellaini start the season with a healthy Arteta and whoever we could add out wide. And of course, use the Vaughan/Yobo/Yakubu funds for a striker like Shane Long up front.
This point needs to be clarified before everybody gets it wrong all Summer. Fellaini is not into the last year of his contract. He arrived in September 2008 and signed a 5 year deal. So he has played 3 seasons for us, still has two years left. Not a Pienaar situation.
As for the main point of the post. I generally agree, selling one marquee player in order to add multiple would be wise. But I wouldn't sell either Fellaini or Rodwell. Rodwell has far too big of an upside. And Fellaini has turned into a star and will be back fully healthy to start next season, looking for a big contract so he will be motivated.
I say defense is where we can sell and I think the player with the best ratio of value/replacability is Jagielka. If Wenger is desperate for a defender and is finally willing to spend I say we let Jagielka move on to the Champions League and give the Distin/Heitinga partnership a go. We could bring in a decent CB for cover with some of the funds, while using the majority for a quality play maker in the midfield. Someone who can get wide and add some pace. But keep Fellaini and Rodwell, let Fellaini start the season with a healthy Arteta and whoever we could add out wide. And of course, use the Vaughan/Yobo/Yakubu funds for a striker like Shane Long up front.
Mark Browne
15 Posted 11/06/2011 at 09:16:52
15 Posted 11/06/2011 at 09:16:52
David, point taken, apologies for misinformation, Fellaini negotiating new contract at moment still 2 years on existing contract. Carrying on the OP, and the current trend of the "big" clubs buying British, at over the odds, it might be a good time to sell Rodwell, and let Moyes have some cash to dig some gems from the Championship. In an ideal world I would not like to lose Rodwell, but I think that we have to sell, and sell big in order to buy, and some new faces may freshen the atmosphere and push the remaining stars next season.
Richard Dodd
16 Posted 11/06/2011 at 09:44:29
16 Posted 11/06/2011 at 09:44:29
Jay #11-Maybe so,but apart from about a season and a half we always had crap sides ever since Prem began.Just look at our record-in comparison- since the BB/DM combo have been in charg.!You can`t have it both ways,mate!
Tom Hughes
17 Posted 11/06/2011 at 10:57:34
17 Posted 11/06/2011 at 10:57:34
Richard,
I think you confuse DM's contribution with that of BK. It would be far easier to argue that what has been "achieved" by DM has been despite BK and the board, and not because of them. Let's face it he's had to earn every penny he's had to spend, and their efforts to address the stadium issues have ALL been complete failures to date..... hardly indicating great performance from the powers that be, by any measure. There have been times over the past few yrs when this club has been right on the verge of getting on the real gravy train, only for the finances not to be forthcoming.... which side of your "combo" is responsible for that? Which was responsible for us not being at the Kings Dock? Which is responsible for the whole DK debacle, when the redevelopment option has been shown to be viable time and again? We could all go on and on.... but what's the point when some will still try to spread DM's plaudits to cover this board's complete impotence/incompetence over the past decade and more?
I think you confuse DM's contribution with that of BK. It would be far easier to argue that what has been "achieved" by DM has been despite BK and the board, and not because of them. Let's face it he's had to earn every penny he's had to spend, and their efforts to address the stadium issues have ALL been complete failures to date..... hardly indicating great performance from the powers that be, by any measure. There have been times over the past few yrs when this club has been right on the verge of getting on the real gravy train, only for the finances not to be forthcoming.... which side of your "combo" is responsible for that? Which was responsible for us not being at the Kings Dock? Which is responsible for the whole DK debacle, when the redevelopment option has been shown to be viable time and again? We could all go on and on.... but what's the point when some will still try to spread DM's plaudits to cover this board's complete impotence/incompetence over the past decade and more?
Dennis Stevens
18 Posted 11/06/2011 at 12:30:57
18 Posted 11/06/2011 at 12:30:57
Eric, if you think that's what I've written then read my post again. My comment was that the figure quoted by Andy, which may not be inaccurate, is unrealistic & is perhaps one reason why the club hasn't been sold. I agree with you that at around £50 million the club probably would have been sold by now, as that's a more realistic value - albeit drastically less than our Board may well be seeking.
Dennis Stevens
19 Posted 11/06/2011 at 12:40:47
19 Posted 11/06/2011 at 12:40:47
2nd paragraph!
Also meant to comment that I'm not even too sure the current Board are in too much of a rush to sell at the moment. It seems clear to me that the intention is to make another attempt at a "DK" type stadium move, presumably they see this as the route to selling the club at such an inflated figure as quoted by Andy.
Also meant to comment that I'm not even too sure the current Board are in too much of a rush to sell at the moment. It seems clear to me that the intention is to make another attempt at a "DK" type stadium move, presumably they see this as the route to selling the club at such an inflated figure as quoted by Andy.
Roman Sidey
20 Posted 11/06/2011 at 13:37:38
20 Posted 11/06/2011 at 13:37:38
There are NO players in our club worth 20mil.
The ONLY way we can get quick financial relief other than direct investment from the 24/7 bullshit is to make the Champions League. No other options.
The ONLY way we can get quick financial relief other than direct investment from the 24/7 bullshit is to make the Champions League. No other options.
David Barks
21 Posted 11/06/2011 at 13:48:57
21 Posted 11/06/2011 at 13:48:57
Roman,
Judging by the values of players bought so far, we absolutely have players worth 20 million. I wouldn't sell them, but Baines, Fellaini would definitely garner at least that price. And Rodwell could could be around that value, as well as Jagielka. This isn't what you value them at, this is what the prices paid for other players in the market will set their value at. If Jordan Henderson was bought for 20 million, the likes of Baines and Fellaini would absolutely be worth at least 20 million. And Rodwell likely would too, given his reputation and potential, not your opinion of him.
Judging by the values of players bought so far, we absolutely have players worth 20 million. I wouldn't sell them, but Baines, Fellaini would definitely garner at least that price. And Rodwell could could be around that value, as well as Jagielka. This isn't what you value them at, this is what the prices paid for other players in the market will set their value at. If Jordan Henderson was bought for 20 million, the likes of Baines and Fellaini would absolutely be worth at least 20 million. And Rodwell likely would too, given his reputation and potential, not your opinion of him.
Richard Jones
22 Posted 11/06/2011 at 14:01:50
22 Posted 11/06/2011 at 14:01:50
Everything is for sale at the right price if there is the will to sell, so either what Kenwright wants is too much!! or the club is not for sale. The situation has to be one or the other it cannott be anything else. Im affraid that is the TRUTH appogists.
Eric Myles
23 Posted 11/06/2011 at 14:50:14
23 Posted 11/06/2011 at 14:50:14
Dennis #19, let me refresh your memory of what you wrote in response to Andy.
Andy Lee - OP
?Being realistic no one is going to come in and buy the club and build a new ground and wipe out the debt, this would take the best part of £500 million which will not happen?
Andy Lee #7
?Being realistic, Kenwright is going to want at least £100m for the club, the debt is around 75-80 million and by all accounts a new stadium would be £250-£300 million. Then there would need to be money set aside for players so yes you are looking at approx £500m?
Dennis Stevens #9
?So, a takeover of the club could initially cost about a tenth of the figure you quote.?
Where I come from a tenth of £500 million is £50 million (unless you really meant a tenth of £100 million?)
Andy Lee - OP
?Being realistic no one is going to come in and buy the club and build a new ground and wipe out the debt, this would take the best part of £500 million which will not happen?
Andy Lee #7
?Being realistic, Kenwright is going to want at least £100m for the club, the debt is around 75-80 million and by all accounts a new stadium would be £250-£300 million. Then there would need to be money set aside for players so yes you are looking at approx £500m?
Dennis Stevens #9
?So, a takeover of the club could initially cost about a tenth of the figure you quote.?
Where I come from a tenth of £500 million is £50 million (unless you really meant a tenth of £100 million?)
Eric Myles
24 Posted 11/06/2011 at 15:01:17
24 Posted 11/06/2011 at 15:01:17
David #14
?As for the main point of the post. I generally agree, selling one marquee player in order to add multiple would be wise? was actually Lyndon?s post.
Andy actually wrote.
?the proceeds can then be split into team rebuilding (a small amount, but enough for Moyes to try and get more championship rabbits out of the hat), debt servicing and paying off and then working on the stadium.?
Note the phrase ?small amount? and read the following 2 paragraphs where he goes on about
?a two-tier Park End stand??? Even the proposed retail development could be factored into one large development.??.? ?There could even be room left to move the pitch slightly??? At least this way we could look to actually improve the facilities?
?As for the main point of the post. I generally agree, selling one marquee player in order to add multiple would be wise? was actually Lyndon?s post.
Andy actually wrote.
?the proceeds can then be split into team rebuilding (a small amount, but enough for Moyes to try and get more championship rabbits out of the hat), debt servicing and paying off and then working on the stadium.?
Note the phrase ?small amount? and read the following 2 paragraphs where he goes on about
?a two-tier Park End stand??? Even the proposed retail development could be factored into one large development.??.? ?There could even be room left to move the pitch slightly??? At least this way we could look to actually improve the facilities?
David Barks
25 Posted 11/06/2011 at 15:24:11
25 Posted 11/06/2011 at 15:24:11
Eric,
I was referring to the main point of Mark's post, as I was responding to his post. He was saying sell one of Rodwell or Fellaini, and I was agreeing with selling one big money player, but neither of those two. I went on to say how I would use those funds if I was magically the manager or owner of Everton. Notice how I never mentioned Andy's original post. I don't need help reading what was already written, thanks though.
I was referring to the main point of Mark's post, as I was responding to his post. He was saying sell one of Rodwell or Fellaini, and I was agreeing with selling one big money player, but neither of those two. I went on to say how I would use those funds if I was magically the manager or owner of Everton. Notice how I never mentioned Andy's original post. I don't need help reading what was already written, thanks though.
Eric Myles
26 Posted 11/06/2011 at 16:04:10
26 Posted 11/06/2011 at 16:04:10
Sorry David, I thought you were referring to the OP.
Sam Hoare
27 Posted 11/06/2011 at 16:18:41
27 Posted 11/06/2011 at 16:18:41
I would say that the main problem is our debt.
Much as i would hate it, if we sold Baines and Rodwell as well as Billy and Heitinga i reckon we could could put £40 m towards clearing our debt whilst having £15 to spend on a few freebie replacements and a decent striker.
We'd only really miss Baines in the first team and i don't think would be in danger of relegation. Once free of debt we are more attractive to investors and don't have to worry about crippling re-payments.
Much as i would hate it, if we sold Baines and Rodwell as well as Billy and Heitinga i reckon we could could put £40 m towards clearing our debt whilst having £15 to spend on a few freebie replacements and a decent striker.
We'd only really miss Baines in the first team and i don't think would be in danger of relegation. Once free of debt we are more attractive to investors and don't have to worry about crippling re-payments.
Dennis Stevens
28 Posted 11/06/2011 at 19:26:39
28 Posted 11/06/2011 at 19:26:39
Yes Eric, your maths is right & I hadn't forgotten what I'd written - what do you still not understand?
David Moorcroft
30 Posted 11/06/2011 at 22:01:18
30 Posted 11/06/2011 at 22:01:18
By the way we wouldnt be in this debt only for DODDYS KENWRONG,How many wrongs will it take to make a RIGHT with this fucking CON MAN.I would like our manager Mr DAVID MOYES to stand up and ask the LYING TWAT, How much actual cash he has got,NOW.
James Flynn
31 Posted 11/06/2011 at 22:18:30
31 Posted 11/06/2011 at 22:18:30
Don't sell anyone. Moyes has put together a team that can make the final jump to the Top 4.
The talent is there. I'm for seeing how this group does next season. It's only been together for 1-2 years.
Don't sell to buy yet again. 14 draws. Very little has to change to turn half of those into 3 points.
I'm for holding fast.
The talent is there. I'm for seeing how this group does next season. It's only been together for 1-2 years.
Don't sell to buy yet again. 14 draws. Very little has to change to turn half of those into 3 points.
I'm for holding fast.
David Barks
33 Posted 11/06/2011 at 23:13:25
33 Posted 11/06/2011 at 23:13:25
James,
I sort of agree with you. The team has only been together a couple years and those draws could be wins with better finishing. But the teams above us with improve, and a team like Everton needs to be creative and smart to attempt to keep up. I don't want to do a complete sell off. But selling one piece to add more, as well as perhaps freeing up some funds to lock up Fellaini on a new contract sounds like the way Everton needs to do it. But it's not an easy decision to sell one of those players, or to choose which one to sell. I think this Summer is going to be more eventful than last years, with players moving out and a decent amount coming in.
I sort of agree with you. The team has only been together a couple years and those draws could be wins with better finishing. But the teams above us with improve, and a team like Everton needs to be creative and smart to attempt to keep up. I don't want to do a complete sell off. But selling one piece to add more, as well as perhaps freeing up some funds to lock up Fellaini on a new contract sounds like the way Everton needs to do it. But it's not an easy decision to sell one of those players, or to choose which one to sell. I think this Summer is going to be more eventful than last years, with players moving out and a decent amount coming in.
Eric Myles
34 Posted 12/06/2011 at 02:00:14
34 Posted 12/06/2011 at 02:00:14
Dennis #28, what I don't understand is when you say
?So, a takeover of the club could initially cost about a tenth of the figure you quote.?
are you referring to the £500 million total figure Andy quoted, or the £100 million Andy quoted in relation to BK portion of it, the rest being debt and stadium costs?
I don't think one tenth of either figure is a realistic cost.
?So, a takeover of the club could initially cost about a tenth of the figure you quote.?
are you referring to the £500 million total figure Andy quoted, or the £100 million Andy quoted in relation to BK portion of it, the rest being debt and stadium costs?
I don't think one tenth of either figure is a realistic cost.
Matt Traynor
35 Posted 12/06/2011 at 04:19:05
35 Posted 12/06/2011 at 04:19:05
It's all conjecture as the club isn't officially for sale is it? There was the DK inquiry evidence where it was stated the major shareholders are not looking at selling, and then there's the stories about Seymour Pearce being asked to look for buyers, or investors.
The prize money per place is about 750k, and you are guaranteed pretty much 38 million per annum minimum under the current broadcast revenue, which includes prize money.
With the money going to players seemingly increasing alarmingly (and I believe it's the side-effect of the top clubs trying to outbid each other, as much as tempting the Lescott's of this league to move that has caused that), the need to secure other investment (matchday, merchandise, sponsorship) is greater than ever.
If the club was for sale, there would need to be a value declared. I believe I've read on elsewhere on here before Everton has a lot of securitised debt, which has penalties for early redemption.
Then there's the question of whether the new buyers would be using the oft-maligned leveraged buyout to purchase the club, something that has been done at Man U, Liverpool under H&G, and somewhere else in the NW...
The increasing profile of the EPL globally suggests that there is value in owning one of these brands. If you believe that EFC are "stable" as a mid-table club (with credit to the current manager and owners for that), then you could argue that in the context of the raised profile, a stable club at the price often mentioned represents good value indeed, even set against the debt and infrastructure constraints.
And that brings you back to the start - why isn't anyone interested? Is it because it's actually not for sale?
The prize money per place is about 750k, and you are guaranteed pretty much 38 million per annum minimum under the current broadcast revenue, which includes prize money.
With the money going to players seemingly increasing alarmingly (and I believe it's the side-effect of the top clubs trying to outbid each other, as much as tempting the Lescott's of this league to move that has caused that), the need to secure other investment (matchday, merchandise, sponsorship) is greater than ever.
If the club was for sale, there would need to be a value declared. I believe I've read on elsewhere on here before Everton has a lot of securitised debt, which has penalties for early redemption.
Then there's the question of whether the new buyers would be using the oft-maligned leveraged buyout to purchase the club, something that has been done at Man U, Liverpool under H&G, and somewhere else in the NW...
The increasing profile of the EPL globally suggests that there is value in owning one of these brands. If you believe that EFC are "stable" as a mid-table club (with credit to the current manager and owners for that), then you could argue that in the context of the raised profile, a stable club at the price often mentioned represents good value indeed, even set against the debt and infrastructure constraints.
And that brings you back to the start - why isn't anyone interested? Is it because it's actually not for sale?
Kevin Gillen
36 Posted 12/06/2011 at 09:44:42
36 Posted 12/06/2011 at 09:44:42
I'm with James Flynn and David Barks. Hold fast! I'm sure the Summer will see at least one of our so-called marquee players go mind. My money is on one of Baines (because there is a real clamour for him although he seems to want to stay), Fellaini (he won't sign a new contract), or Rodwell (he will be a top central defender in the future no doubt and they are not easy to come by). I don't think the current board will invest in a new stadium or ground improvements but I find it baffling that no new investment has come to the club. All the clubs above us and quite a few below have been re-financed (West Ham, Birmingham, Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland). I think investors are missing a trick because Everton's fan base is still very strong and the football management and youth development sides of the club are in rude health.
Richard Dodd
37 Posted 12/06/2011 at 10:00:06
37 Posted 12/06/2011 at 10:00:06
All this reads as though there is some disgrace in finishing seventh in the strongest league in the worl!.It is acknowledged that at least four of the clubs above us rely on racking up enormous debits whilst two of the others have the massive advantage of operating in London.
Our chairman has managed to keep our debts within serviceable levels whilst finding just enough to provide his manager with a good side.` This is Everton FFS` somebody wrote yesterday-well,of course he`s got that right,but so what? We have no undeniable right to be at the top of the pile and no less than two thirds of the Prem clubs look up to us in what we spend on players`salaries -and where we finish in the table.
Of course it would be nice to get a genial benefactor on board but as others have proved,that in itself is no guarantee of greater success.
So stop playing the financial whizz-kid game and leave it to Bill- for most of you know as much about the City as I do- SWEET FA!
Our chairman has managed to keep our debts within serviceable levels whilst finding just enough to provide his manager with a good side.` This is Everton FFS` somebody wrote yesterday-well,of course he`s got that right,but so what? We have no undeniable right to be at the top of the pile and no less than two thirds of the Prem clubs look up to us in what we spend on players`salaries -and where we finish in the table.
Of course it would be nice to get a genial benefactor on board but as others have proved,that in itself is no guarantee of greater success.
So stop playing the financial whizz-kid game and leave it to Bill- for most of you know as much about the City as I do- SWEET FA!
John Ford
38 Posted 12/06/2011 at 11:43:27
38 Posted 12/06/2011 at 11:43:27
This assumes Moyes can continuously replace our top players with cheaper versions and then turn them into top players, creating a cycle of adding value to everyone he buys.
This is an unrealistic expectation for any manager. We cant sell our best players and expect to have them replaced by similar quality - for less money. Nor can we do this and expect to compete on the pitch
This is an unrealistic expectation for any manager. We cant sell our best players and expect to have them replaced by similar quality - for less money. Nor can we do this and expect to compete on the pitch
Richard Dodd
39 Posted 12/06/2011 at 12:34:00
39 Posted 12/06/2011 at 12:34:00
Yes,he can.That`s what he signed up to do when he signed his last contract!
Brian Waring
40 Posted 12/06/2011 at 13:40:43
40 Posted 12/06/2011 at 13:40:43
Nothing to do with the bumper pay rise that made him one of the top paid managers in the prem then Richard?
Dennis Stevens
41 Posted 12/06/2011 at 13:35:06
41 Posted 12/06/2011 at 13:35:06
Eric, as you'd actually quoted the figure of £50 million & I'd agreed with you then I thought that was quite clear. If you disagree then fair enough, but to refer back to your first response : if you think £100 million is a realistic value for the club, might it not have been sold by now? Of course, it doesn't matter what you or I would consider a realistic value as we're not in a position to buy the club, & that's if the club is even really for sale. I suspect we'll see another attempt at a DK type stadium move before the current regime accept a 'realistic' return on their investment & relinquish control of the club.
Richard Dodd
42 Posted 12/06/2011 at 13:55:38
42 Posted 12/06/2011 at 13:55:38
Brian#38,-everything to do with it. I have always believed that he signed that contract having been totally apprised of the financial situation and thus fully accepts the constraints he works under.Moreover,I am also,can`t we? convinced he is up to the task
and will,at least, always deliver a top half side. Let`s face it,that to expect anything more,given our 20 year Prem record , really is a pipedream.But we can still HOPE........can`t we?
and will,at least, always deliver a top half side. Let`s face it,that to expect anything more,given our 20 year Prem record , really is a pipedream.But we can still HOPE........can`t we?
Brian Waring
43 Posted 12/06/2011 at 14:39:37
43 Posted 12/06/2011 at 14:39:37
So, in your opinion Richard, for that huge salary, what does Moyes have to achieve in a season to justify it, and if he doesn't achieve those targets, doesn't he then become sackable?
Roman Sidey
44 Posted 12/06/2011 at 15:53:50
44 Posted 12/06/2011 at 15:53:50
David #21, fair enough other players are being sold for shitloads, which means our players could be sold for similar high figures, but, as you say, players are only worth what someone will pay for them.
I wouldn't 'value' any of our players at 20mil, and, sadly, our financial situation means that other clubs would never offer top dollar for our players now (barring Man City maybe) because they know that eventually we will crumble for the money - which is what happened with Lescott, despite us getting more for him than was reasonable.
You can see exactly how other clubs value our players by looking at the Yobo situation now.
I wouldn't 'value' any of our players at 20mil, and, sadly, our financial situation means that other clubs would never offer top dollar for our players now (barring Man City maybe) because they know that eventually we will crumble for the money - which is what happened with Lescott, despite us getting more for him than was reasonable.
You can see exactly how other clubs value our players by looking at the Yobo situation now.
Richard Dodd
45 Posted 12/06/2011 at 16:08:18
45 Posted 12/06/2011 at 16:08:18
Can`t see him ever being sacked by BB because he will always deliver a top half place.I think he might walk if he found this to be impossible,though.
Gavin Ramejkis
46 Posted 12/06/2011 at 16:03:38
46 Posted 12/06/2011 at 16:03:38
Doddy, "serviceable levels" of debt? Do you want to take a moment and think about that? 14 mortgages on GP, the last taken in December to pay the interest of another mortgage, players shipped out last season to reduce the wage bill and a first teamer sold without a single, yes not one penny spent on a loan signing in January as we couldn't even afford the wages.
Tell me again about just how this is serviceable levels please as to all intents and purposes this seems more like trying to bail out a shinking ship with an egg cup. Billy Bullshitter and his lickspittles haven't paid a single penny of their own money into the club beyond shares in 12 years but fucked up the chance of the Kings Dock and wasted millions on the doomed Desperation Kirkby then failed with their token lipservice reconsideration of redevelopment of GP and seem to be looking at another attempt at DK with Sainsburys elsewhere.
Tell me again about just how this is serviceable levels please as to all intents and purposes this seems more like trying to bail out a shinking ship with an egg cup. Billy Bullshitter and his lickspittles haven't paid a single penny of their own money into the club beyond shares in 12 years but fucked up the chance of the Kings Dock and wasted millions on the doomed Desperation Kirkby then failed with their token lipservice reconsideration of redevelopment of GP and seem to be looking at another attempt at DK with Sainsburys elsewhere.
Richard Dodd
47 Posted 12/06/2011 at 16:20:13
47 Posted 12/06/2011 at 16:20:13
Good to see you`re having a cheerful Sunday,Gavram. keep the faith!
Gavin Ramejkis
48 Posted 12/06/2011 at 17:12:11
48 Posted 12/06/2011 at 17:12:11
Doddy, I was meant to go for a 30-50 mile cycle training ride with my brother but the weather put that to the sword so ended up buying and installing a new tumble dryer instead, its lashing down in Upholland but luckly my two boys are satisfied with watching Scooby Doo on Sky and playing on Nintendos, hate the close season and this weather isn't helping
Geoff Edwards
49 Posted 12/06/2011 at 21:48:47
49 Posted 12/06/2011 at 21:48:47
#36 to be fair a lot of clubs function like that, Udinese for example.
Richard Dodd
50 Posted 12/06/2011 at 21:50:14
50 Posted 12/06/2011 at 21:50:14
We all have days like that,Gavram! At least I managed an eight mile run up the coast road-and came home like a drowned rat,Then my wife asked me why I spent my life promoting a guy who,in one week,earns twice as much as I do in a year and then sees me pay £600Plus a season to watch his mistakes.Got me thinking that did......and then I set about preparing a paper for a recycling conference tomorrow,What srange lives we live!
James Flynn
51 Posted 12/06/2011 at 22:25:12
51 Posted 12/06/2011 at 22:25:12
David (31) - Good post and thanks for replying. Without backing away from my notion of holding fast (No cock crows for Flynn!), I considered your, "But it's not an easy decision to sell one of those players, or to choose which one to sell". Push to shove - Arteta.
If La Minor Liga clubs come calling, sell him. He's popular here, so would be popular there in his own country.
If La Minor Liga clubs come calling, sell him. He's popular here, so would be popular there in his own country.
James Flynn
52 Posted 12/06/2011 at 23:01:53
52 Posted 12/06/2011 at 23:01:53
Kevin (34) - " I'm sure the Summer will see at least one of our so-called marquee players go mind".
If it has to happen, I say Arteta. In La (No touching) Liga, Mikky's skills will keep him up there for another 3-4 years in his own country.
He's been a good servant and I like him. But if someone has to go. . . . . .
If it has to happen, I say Arteta. In La (No touching) Liga, Mikky's skills will keep him up there for another 3-4 years in his own country.
He's been a good servant and I like him. But if someone has to go. . . . . .
Eric Myles
53 Posted 13/06/2011 at 02:34:21
53 Posted 13/06/2011 at 02:34:21
And Arteta is our highest paid player making selling him another plus.
Not that I would want hom to go mind, it just makes the most financial sense to BK.
Not that I would want hom to go mind, it just makes the most financial sense to BK.
Eric Myles
54 Posted 13/06/2011 at 06:12:23
54 Posted 13/06/2011 at 06:12:23
Dennis #39, I think £100 million IS a realistic value for the club, however I don't think this is the figure BK is looking for, try doubling it, IF the club was actually for sale that is
Trevor Mackie
55 Posted 13/06/2011 at 10:02:52
55 Posted 13/06/2011 at 10:02:52
I was thinking of doing some exercise but decided it was too hard - about 30 years ago.
Sam Hoare
56 Posted 13/06/2011 at 10:55:26
56 Posted 13/06/2011 at 10:55:26
I wonder what people's realistic expectations are for next season given that it seems nearly all our rivals are splashing the cash without abandon whilst we are struggling to persuade greedy freebies like Demba Ba to choose us over the barcodes...
Denis Richardson
57 Posted 13/06/2011 at 16:50:57
57 Posted 13/06/2011 at 16:50:57
Am not sure we need to sell any of the family silver. With the likes of Vaughan/Yobo/Yakubu all leaving, that should free up cash to renew Fellaini's contract as well as bring in some hungry championship players.
I keep reading about players being at the end of their contract (e.g. Boothroyd) so why can we not bring some of these in. If we want a 'top' striker then we could sell Jagielka as Heitinga should be at CB and not CM.
Otherwise if someone offers silly money for any of our team, it should be taken, (eg if spurs office 20m+ for Rodwell).
Main thing for me is that we need more players, the squad is just too small and there are enough freebees out there, or get some loan players in like Fernandez a couple of years ago.
We should not be looking to seel though as the world knows we're skint so clubs are not going to offer us large money if we're the ones looking to sell.
I keep reading about players being at the end of their contract (e.g. Boothroyd) so why can we not bring some of these in. If we want a 'top' striker then we could sell Jagielka as Heitinga should be at CB and not CM.
Otherwise if someone offers silly money for any of our team, it should be taken, (eg if spurs office 20m+ for Rodwell).
Main thing for me is that we need more players, the squad is just too small and there are enough freebees out there, or get some loan players in like Fernandez a couple of years ago.
We should not be looking to seel though as the world knows we're skint so clubs are not going to offer us large money if we're the ones looking to sell.
Dennis Stevens
58 Posted 13/06/2011 at 17:05:54
58 Posted 13/06/2011 at 17:05:54
We'll have to agree to disagree on our ideas of a realisitic valuation, Eric. But either way it's easy to see why our club is stagnating under the current regime. The idea seems to only to "invest" what can be borrowed & trust Moyes to keep the ship afloat in the Prem whilst the Board await DK Mk II in the hope of achieving their long awaited pay-of. Grim - & only to get grimmer!
Joe Rourke
59 Posted 13/06/2011 at 18:13:47
59 Posted 13/06/2011 at 18:13:47
This article is sort of like FM meets Simcity only Simcity has some basic economic reasoning to it!
Where is this realism mentioned in the title exactly I ask?
This is all sheer fantasy based on unfounded assuptions and idiotic statements like "we are now a selling club" which seems to be implied as being a bad thing. Man U sold one Christiano Ronaldo to Real Madrid when they came calling. Everything has its price. Everton are way down the pecking order in the PL money stakes. Yes they should sell when the right offer comes in. I think they should be set up to try to make more money out of this if anything.
And why does Everton need a new shiny stadium? To generate extra revenue? Man C, Newcastle and Sunderland have bigger capacities and don't fare any better. More tickets means less market pressure on tickets BECAUSE YOU ARE INCREASING THE SUPPLY OF TICKETS. Everton will only gain if there is demand and more specifically well off demand for those extra tickets.
And the 500 million figure? IS this to be in debt? United have 590 million borrowed and paid 67 million to service it in 2009/2010. Arsenal and Liverpool have similar interest rate levels on theirs. Evertons debt was 45 million in 2009 and the club paid 4 million to service it. In this day and age thats actually good!
One PL club had no debt in 2009/10 that was Wolves. Would you like to support Wolves Andy. Good team eh? No debt though.
Evertons revenue is up around the 75 million mark. Uniteds/Arsenal/Chelski match day revenue is somewhere abouts 100 million per year. Evertons is more like 20. Do you think that Everton can make 500% more money from building a new gaff most of which would be needed to service the loans accrued.
Chelski have huge debts Abramovich hasn't just given them the money he's pegged to the club in ( albeit interest-free ) loans. Fulham are similar with 180 million in loans pegged to the club.
Perhaps Andy you would know some people who could afford to hand over 500 million to the club in loans which they are not going to call in and for little or no interest? Maybe down in the local boozer?
Then I reckon Everton could afford your little pipe dream.
This talk of ridiculous debt isn't progress it would be suicide. Look at Leeds FFS.
Where is this realism mentioned in the title exactly I ask?
This is all sheer fantasy based on unfounded assuptions and idiotic statements like "we are now a selling club" which seems to be implied as being a bad thing. Man U sold one Christiano Ronaldo to Real Madrid when they came calling. Everything has its price. Everton are way down the pecking order in the PL money stakes. Yes they should sell when the right offer comes in. I think they should be set up to try to make more money out of this if anything.
And why does Everton need a new shiny stadium? To generate extra revenue? Man C, Newcastle and Sunderland have bigger capacities and don't fare any better. More tickets means less market pressure on tickets BECAUSE YOU ARE INCREASING THE SUPPLY OF TICKETS. Everton will only gain if there is demand and more specifically well off demand for those extra tickets.
And the 500 million figure? IS this to be in debt? United have 590 million borrowed and paid 67 million to service it in 2009/2010. Arsenal and Liverpool have similar interest rate levels on theirs. Evertons debt was 45 million in 2009 and the club paid 4 million to service it. In this day and age thats actually good!
One PL club had no debt in 2009/10 that was Wolves. Would you like to support Wolves Andy. Good team eh? No debt though.
Evertons revenue is up around the 75 million mark. Uniteds/Arsenal/Chelski match day revenue is somewhere abouts 100 million per year. Evertons is more like 20. Do you think that Everton can make 500% more money from building a new gaff most of which would be needed to service the loans accrued.
Chelski have huge debts Abramovich hasn't just given them the money he's pegged to the club in ( albeit interest-free ) loans. Fulham are similar with 180 million in loans pegged to the club.
Perhaps Andy you would know some people who could afford to hand over 500 million to the club in loans which they are not going to call in and for little or no interest? Maybe down in the local boozer?
Then I reckon Everton could afford your little pipe dream.
This talk of ridiculous debt isn't progress it would be suicide. Look at Leeds FFS.
Brian Denton
60 Posted 13/06/2011 at 23:45:37
60 Posted 13/06/2011 at 23:45:37
Have to agree with all that, Joe.
James Hollister
61 Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:27:24
61 Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:27:24
I also agree Joe.
Lots of fantasy league stuff being dished out.
I think it's just a matter of time for us to hold on, while the top teams end up in very severe trouble financially.
The question is, how long until United have to start selling just to furnish their debts? They clearly can't keep going the way they are..its a matter of time before their bubble burts..and as for the others, I can't see abramovich staying at Chelsea for the rest of his days..and what happens when he calls in his loans?
Compared to the rest of the league apart from Wolves, we are in pretty good shape considering the debts others clubs have.
As for selling our best players..definitely if the money is right..like Joe says everyone has their selling price.
.
Lots of fantasy league stuff being dished out.
I think it's just a matter of time for us to hold on, while the top teams end up in very severe trouble financially.
The question is, how long until United have to start selling just to furnish their debts? They clearly can't keep going the way they are..its a matter of time before their bubble burts..and as for the others, I can't see abramovich staying at Chelsea for the rest of his days..and what happens when he calls in his loans?
Compared to the rest of the league apart from Wolves, we are in pretty good shape considering the debts others clubs have.
As for selling our best players..definitely if the money is right..like Joe says everyone has their selling price.
.
James Hollister
62 Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:27:24
62 Posted 15/06/2011 at 11:27:24
I also agree Joe.
Lots of fantasy league stuff being dished out.
I think it's just a matter of time for us to hold on, while the top teams end up in very severe trouble financially.
The question is, how long until United have to start selling just to furnish their debts? They clearly can't keep going the way they are..its a matter of time before their bubble burts..and as for the others, I can't see abramovich staying at Chelsea for the rest of his days..and what happens when he calls in his loans?
Compared to the rest of the league apart from Wolves, we are in pretty good shape considering the debts others clubs have.
As for selling our best players..definitely if the money is right..like Joe says everyone has their selling price.
.
Lots of fantasy league stuff being dished out.
I think it's just a matter of time for us to hold on, while the top teams end up in very severe trouble financially.
The question is, how long until United have to start selling just to furnish their debts? They clearly can't keep going the way they are..its a matter of time before their bubble burts..and as for the others, I can't see abramovich staying at Chelsea for the rest of his days..and what happens when he calls in his loans?
Compared to the rest of the league apart from Wolves, we are in pretty good shape considering the debts others clubs have.
As for selling our best players..definitely if the money is right..like Joe says everyone has their selling price.
.
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1 Posted 10/06/2011 at 18:48:57
1. 500 MILLION !!! where did that figure appear from?
2. where does the 2o million (or 40 Million ) for 2 star names on premium moneys come from?