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Outstaying Your Welcome

By Ged   Dwyer  ::  20/03/2012   58 Comments (»Last) David Moyes has given out enough clues over the last 10 years to show that there is something very suspect about his management style. But somehow he has been given the benefit of the doubt by too many Everton supporters time after time.

His falling out with numerous players, inability to clinch signings, wasting millions on certain players, awful substitutions and overall tactics, numerous humiliations on the pitch have left me in no doubt he is not up to the job as Everton manager, despite finishing high in the league table on several occasions.

A couple of times we have been close to having a decent team but Moyes has shown he has had no clue how to make the final adjustment to push us on and we have then slid backwards.

Apart from a couple of purple patches, the standard of football played during his reign has been the worst I have witnessed in 40 years of watching Everton, and at times has been absolutely appalling.

But last Tuesday night was beyond the pale. For an Everton manager to put out a weakened team in a Derby was totally unforgivable and surely now only the ultra deluded can want him to remain as manager of our great club.

His logic is and was all wrong. Anyone who has watched the game for any reasonable length of time knows there are certain fundamentals you don't mess with. An unchanged team breeds understanding, continuity and confidence. Moyes doesn't know this.

One change in a defence means there will be a disruption of understanding in the defence. Two changes means there will be probably be too much disruption, especially in a Derby, and when a solid performer like Distin starts to struggle you know this must be the case. Moyes doesn't know this.

Bringing in two players with little match practice is a recipe for disaster in a Derby as they will struggle with the pace of the game and it is unfair on them. Moyes doesn't understand this.

Two or three changes for any game is risky but for a Derby it is a real gamble but six changes is suicide. Moyes doesn't know this.

If we had played our strongest team, given Liverpool a game, maybe even won a point or three, we could have dented their confidence further, instead of boosting it, and the outcome of their cup tie may well have been different as the pressure on Dalglish was growing a pace. This was far too much for Moyes to work out.

And, after 10 years, Moyes didn't know or didn't care that a Derby is too big a game to mess about with. His plan was doomed to fail, didn?t work, and all he managed to do was generate an extra game for the team, with cup progress even more uncertain.

Moyes likes to harp on about how he looks after his younger players.

His management of Rodwell has been awful. Putting earlier seasons to one side, and with the scapegoat for many fans last season transferred to Arsenal, Rodwell was pitched into the fray and almost immediately he too suffered harsh criticism from a certain section of our supporters but, to his enormous credit, he played through this (despite a ridiculous sending off), kept his head down, worked hard and after several excellent performances, notably City away and Utd at home, got himself into the England team on merit, and won over the boo boys.

Unfortunately an injury stopped his progress and then Moyes did what only he can do. He didn't just play Rodwell once when not fully fit, away to West Brom when he had to go off, he brought him on again in the very next game causing Rodwell to be sidelined for weeks.

Not content with that he then brings him back for the derby when he?d had little match practice and the critics have returned leaving Rodwell with the task of re-establishing himself again and winning over certain out-of-order supporters again. It?s just poor management of a player.

Rodwell will leave at the first opportunity, just like Arteta and the Evertonians who have given him stick will then deny they were ever on his back, just the same as with Arteta.

Ross Barkley could have been a sensation for us this season in midfield. But, while our centre midfield has struggled on the creative side all season, and again on Saturday against Sunderland, he is nowhere to be seen.

I'll throw in the handling of Anichebe too, whose confidence has been destroyed by Moyes, who has incessantly played him out of position.

And of course playing people out of position is one of Moyes?s favourite tricks... and he seems to have no idea that this can hamper a young player's development. Even though Barkley handled it well, he was played out of position on his debut for the club.

At the start of last season Rodwell had just had a great pre-season, Moyes could have started with an excellent centre midfield trio of Rodwell, Arteta and Pienaar, which would have had some pace, a ballwinner and plenty of creativity. But instead he chose to ignore it, instead playing someone who wasn?t match fit who had no pre-season, and supporters were left scratching their heads as to why we had yet another poor start, and that chance is now long gone. We are now left with a ponderous centre midfield which lacks creativity, creates no space for the two wide players, and is unable to win a midfield battle with any team including Blackpool and Tamworth and we have to endure the team holding on to slender leads like grim death, relying on a stretched but solid defence.

Each substitution he made in the Spurs game made the team worse, he took off the three players who had been the biggest threat, and not for the first time it was like the Alamo in our penalty area for the last fifteen minutes of the game.

There has also been a bandwagon this season for Moyes to play two strikers. When will the penny drop that we don't have the quality in midfield to do this and Moyes doesn?t have the tactical know how to play this way? Remember the Bolton home game fiasco?

No doubt the usual suspects will have a go at me for saying this but the game is up for Moyes. He is not a good manager for Everton, he does not know the Everton way ? even after 10 years ? and I hope and pray Spurs offer him their manager's job when Redknapp leaves... although I think they will have too much sense.

As for getting to and getting past the FA Cup Semi-Final, I have no confidence in Moyes managing this and we will see the team chop and change more and more over the next few weeks as the wheels fall off again. And although Pienaar can't play in the cup, he'll play more games than Drenthe who needs games to become more of a consistent performer.

With or without money, the last 10 years could have been so much better with the right person in charge. This club has more than money can buy (as 1984-85 showed), a great history, great support, great facilities, good youngsters coming through the ranks, and it did have an ambition few other clubs had, but Moyes has talked us down for years, and diminished our standing almost single handedly.

Please, no more nonsense, no more "In Moyes We Trust". The game is truly up. He doesn't care or know what it means to be an Evertonian. Last Tuesday proved that. When the Everton manager becomes Liverpool?s best weapon, something is very, very wrong.

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Andy Meighan
575   Posted 21/03/2012 at 10:31:26

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While I totally agree with most you've said, I can't agree with you saying he destroyed Anichebe's confidence. I think a lot of fans would agree, Victor will never make it at Everton. Yes, there'll be the odd goal... and he has won a few points this season for us.

I think the cold harsh truth is he's just not good enough. For a big strong lad, he goes to ground far too easily, and even the manager doesn't know what his best position is. To me, he's not a striker because he doesn't get enough goals, and he's certainly no wide player because he can't beat a man and can't cross a ball.

But you're right about Moyes though. I think the night he made all them changes in the derby is the night our season went tits up. We will still go through against Sunderland but a semi-final against THEM? I'm not so sure... and they're no great shakes but it's like you said: he's their biggest weapon.

Dont bank on anyone coming in for him at the end of the season; it's not going to happen... He's here for the long haul ? the very long haul!
Sam Morrison
577   Posted 21/03/2012 at 10:40:24

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Supporters generally see the benefits of other club's managers, but only see the flaws of their own.

This is a universal truth, as consistent as the fact that Phil Jagielka will say "Obviously" at least six times in a post-match interview and no-one on an internet forum ever changes their mind.
Sam Morrison
578   Posted 21/03/2012 at 10:47:32

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- not that I disagree with all you say Ged. But a case can be made for or against Moyes depending on which facts you choose.

Dick Fearon
579   Posted 21/03/2012 at 09:14:00

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Moyes touch line antics must surely be aggravating to the players. Despite being in close daily contact with the players his arm waving and screaming at them gives the impression they are total strangers.
There must be something wrong with the coaching set up if adult professionals need endless instructions.

When attacks peter out as they usually do he wears the look of a stunned mullet.
This is not surprising because he and his fellow coaches have not an ounce of attacking experience.

An example was the second half of the Sunderland game. Our wide men under no pressure sent over a string of totally useless balls that sailed way over the heads of attackers and defenders.
Not one of our coaches has a career background that would enable them to deal with such a problem.
Case in point is Arteta who since going to Arsenal. has rediscovered his dead ball skills
It is probably a bit soon for Moyes to influence Jelavic who looks to have the makings of a decent centre forward. It won't be long before the system grinds him down.
Dan McKie
583   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:03:38

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Ive changed my mind, Sam. I used to like Moyes, now I dont. As for a lot of fans, the straw that broke the camels back was last weeks derby. How I wish I could forget it, but for an Everton manager to say he didnt care about the result of that particular game is unforgivable, as mentioned in the OP. He cant stick with a winning team neither, he always has to change something, often to the detriment of the team. Against Sunderland I said to my pal who I sit with that Jelavic best get used to, and will get sick of long balls up to him, without a single Everton player within 25 yards of him. Basically it is control it, keep it for 10 or 15 seconds waiting for a man, do something on your own, or lose it trying. Guess which one happens most often? We need a man who can motivate the players week in week out, and we dont have that. His hiding away this week has just took my respect for the man to an even lower level, if that were possible.
Dan McKie
584   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:18:10

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He needs to go out with his strongest team for the next 2 games and come away with 4 or 6 points. None of this 'resting' players crap, hes tried that, it failed. We need a winning confident sde next tuesday night and go for it! Sunderland were shocking last night, just as they were against us. Its rubbish to think that the only person that will stop us going there and taking them out, is our own manager!
Brian Waring
585   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:22:01

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Last Tuesday done it for a few lads I know Dan, and these are lads who normally back Moyes to the hilt.
Shane Williams
586   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:20:23

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I think Moyes has had his time at Everton now, even if we did win the FA Cup by some miracle this season, I think it would be right for him to leave at the end of the season. I lost count this season how many times I've been frustrated with the lack of game plan and his handling of the players, not to mention the media.
Stephen Kenny
587   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:18:53

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I think normally sane and sound Evertonians were so deeply scarred by the relegation battles fought in the 90's that the idea of risking it by changing manager's bring them out in a cold sweat.

Change always brings risk. Sometimes in football things just fit and there's no guarantee Martinez, Holloway or anybody else would do for us what they've done elsewhere.

I can understand the fear that most people have towards a change. I can understand those who say look at resources and where we have finished in the league. What I can't get my head around is the people who defend this style of football we play and the attitude we carry on to the pitch with us.

It makes me sick at times.
Brian Waring
588   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:39:18

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Thats one of the things that gets on my tits Stephen, when lads defend the negative, shite football we play. The best excuse is, that to play football, you have to have the players to play football, and these type of players cost millions.
Richard Dodd
590   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:34:26

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Here we go again! How many threads do we have to endure before the coin drops that Moyes continues to be the best manager for our particular circumstances?

I understand that our average position under the Moyestro is 8.3.Do you truly believe that we have consistently had the eighth best set of players in the Prem? Of course not. He has had to micro-manage, drill, persuade and chivy a very average bunch to reach levels of achievement way beyond most of their individual abilities.

Let's at least be realistic. Only when he has the luxury to sign class players can his true worth be judged. When will that come about? Never. So we just have to hope that his talent with pigs` ears will endure.
Phil Walling
591   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:55:15

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Do you know,Doddy,you may even be right!
But, for all the reasons outlined in Ged`s post,I`m totally pissed off with him.
I no longer feel any urge to pay to watch the shit he offers us-and if that`s the best this useless Board can provide him with,it`s time they pissed off as well!
Like many others,I shall not be renewing my ST and if that means I am no longer a true Evertonian,I`ve been driven to it by the most incompetent bunch of con merchants since Portsmouth`s owners set the mould.
Chris Fisher
592   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:51:57

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Sam Morrison (578) says it best. I could write a similar article detailing all the things Moyes has got right and why he is right for Everton and some will agree with me and some will not, just as they will with your article.

Last Tuesday was rubbish and I do think Moyes got that particular decison wrong but it certainly doesn't mean that now he is no longer the right man for the job. Maybe he knew that Sunderland with players like O'Shea, and especially Bardsley are a team likely to try and kick you off the park and didn't think some players could cope with the intensity of a derby and then the kicking that Sunderland were going to hand out.

Players like Phil Neville, Cahill and Heitinga are not the type to hold anything back and it may've been too much. Apparently because the media want to suck Martin O'Neill off, their bully-boy tactics go unnoticed, unlike say Stoke.
Jamie Barlow
593   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:05:45

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When did he say he didn't care about the Liverpool result?
James Martin
595   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:02:18

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This is probably the most myopic thing I've ever read concerning Moyes. Worst standard of football you've seen in 40 years? Did the rest of the Premer League era pre-Moyes not happen or something? Every club has humiliations, United were beaten 6-1 at home with a full team.

I'm not in anyway condoning our abysmal derby performance but it shows Moyes isn't some sort of special failure case. Alongside these humiliations (some people on here would have you believe that any away draw is a humiliation) there've been some great wins. The last two results have suddenly coloured everyone's retrospective view of the City, Chelsea and Tottenham games: opinion has gone from "what great strong wins" to "well we just nicked a goal and hung on, negative Moyes got lucky on the football lottery for once".

Everyone on here knows Moyes's failings as a manager, but this post is just beating him in every direction. He gets blamed for playing the same team over and over, getting called tactically inept; when he does rotate he gets blamed for changing the team. I couldn't believe some of the posts after the derby with people slating him for leaving out Neville, Cahill and Osman! These players ? "Moyes's favourties" ? have been on the end of abuse all season and so has Moyes for picking them. Showed their value on Tuesday night in their absence though, didn't they. Yet, because we didn't beat Sunderland, it was back to kicking Osman and wanting him out of the team.

These posts are just far too knee-jerk and one-sided, like the majority of this post is. Arteta didn't leave us at the first opportunity, he stayed for about 6 years! LIkewise Rodwell was not playing that well at the start of the season, hence why we were losing most games. No coincidence that when Gibson came we started playing well.

You're also advocating leaving out Pienaar, one of our best players, in favour of Drenthe, who needs games yet is playing most of them in this mad period. It would be crazy not to bring Pienaar in for the league games in the midst of injuries.
Anto Byrne
596   Posted 21/03/2012 at 11:53:44

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Oh ffs Doddy, extract that head from the sand and tell me you want another 10 years of dreary boring negative shite with a manager afraid to win and who regards the derby as just another game when history has another point of view.
Tony J Williams
597   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:11:40

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"Apart from a couple of purple patches, the standard of football played during his reign has been the worst I have witnessed in 40 years of watching Everton" - You must have slept through the 90's then.

He is too defensive, he has too many favourites and his substitutions are infuriating; however, when you look at what he has to work with and when you realise that we are not actually that good, you will find your blood pressure will come down and you won't have this ridiculous expectation of winning every game hanging around your neck. The disappointments seem less devastating.

I don't get that worked up anymore since realising we are nowhere as good as I liked to think we were. We are a midtable boring side with one or two good players.

No doubt after we get beat by Arsenal - 1-0 or 2-1 tonight, someone will come on and slag off Moyes (ignoring the usual poor performance from some players) and state that they were there for the taking... ffs.
Steve Smith
599   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:03:30

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"A couple of times we have been close to having a decent team but Moyes has shown he has had no clue how to make the final adjustment to push us on and we have then slid backwards."

Nope, investment has curtailed that. If we'd have had ÂŁ30 million to spend in the 09/10 close season (after finishing 8th) and Moyes was still finishing 8th/9th/10th that is when enough is enough and we need a change.

As it is we got Jan Mucha, Joao Silva and Magaye Gueye. Hardly groundbreaking signings.

"Anyone who has watched the game for any reasonable length of time knows there are certain fundamentals you don't mess with. An unchanged team breeds understanding, continuity and confidence. Moyes doesn't know this".

I'd suggest he probably does. How about having a word with that useless manger along the road, Alex Ferguson. In his 20+ years at Man United, I don't recall him changing his starting 11 once to prioritise one competition over the other. Clearly it never happens if you are a great manager.

Last week against Liverpool was a bad judgement call, but move on, stop moaning and get behind the team. We haven't turned bad overnight.
Shaun Dixon
600   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:16:37

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I've outstayed my welcome on the Toffeeweb. Reading all the negativity and poor threads that has come along over the past weeks, I won't be logging on again.
Tony J Williams
602   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:25:39

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Everyone has differing opinions, Shaun; no matter how negative some people are, this site is better for not being an Everton FC love-in.
Phil Bellis
604   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:20:47

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With the best will in the world, James, we appear to have gone back in a circle; do you recall Moyes's stated intention of bringing down the age of the team?

I feel that Moyes is inherently cautious and doesn't have the faith in the players (or the coaching ability) to let them off the leash ? we've all seen the odd mad moments when the team has played freely, without fear of losing; these occasions justify, for me anyway, what I'm trying to say.

It's a shame because I think he's got so many attributes. Yes, I know he "sees them in training" and he's a lovely man, but so were Johnny Carey and Gordon Lee.
Mark Stone
606   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:39:08

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"I don't recall him changing his starting 11 once to prioritise one competition over the other. Clearly it never happens if you are a great manager"


Did you go to the FA Cup semi final in 2009?
Roman Sidey
607   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:31:35

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Doddy, I have been warming to your posts lately, but I have to disagree with your opinion that we haven't had at least the 8th/9th best squad. I think our squad, despite it's apparent small size (which isn't as accurate as people say), we've had a very good squad of players. It's only now that it's an ageing squad that it's deteriorating.

Steve Smith, I'm sorry, but you can't use the 2009-10 close season's lack of funds as a defence for Moyes. His claims to having the best squad he'd ever had put end to anyone saying he couldn't do better with that squad. It'd be different if he didn't come out with those quotes, but he did, so you can't.
Sam Morrison
608   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:45:48

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Mark, I think Steve was being ironic.
Lee Preston
611   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:41:46

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@Tony Williams, I too feel exactly the same as you, I understand we are a poor side, playing poor football, with no realistic chances of winning trophies (hope I'm wrong in the FA Cup though).

But, why is it that so many Evertonians feel this way? Well numerous reasons actually. But, something which sticks with me, in Moyes's earlier years, he would never admit that we had no chance of winning the league until we couldn't get the points to do so, that was the level of ambition of the man. Now, however, is a different story. We have to hear 'how tough it will be to make the top half', how most of the bottom half have spent more than us, how much of a struggle it will be, this is all before the season has actually kicked off.

For the first time in 16 years, I'm actually unsure whether to renew my season ticket; before now, it has always been a given that I would renew!

My point is, and I assure you there is one: How can Evertonians possibly be positive, when the people running the club arent?? (Not just Moyes, by the way.)
Howard Don
613   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:39:32

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Like Shaun I'm often sickened by the negativity on this site to the point of hardly bothering any more. So don't know why I'm bothering to post in reply to this latest piece of selective, cliched rubbish from the spoilt whingers fraternity. Can't you see the blindingly obvious that Moyes is a victim of his own success. Bumping along the bottom for years before he came, fantastic job done in completely turning the club round to be on the fringe of the mega rich elite with whom he can't hope to compete financially, and you negative whingers expect miracles.
Jimmy Sørheim
614   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:25:58

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Great post Ged!
Finally people are waking up, how long will it take before there will be a Moyes out chant?

What Moyes did when he sold Yakubu for 1.25million was plain stupid, it was clear that after selling Vaughan and Beckford that we were too short up front.
Now we suck even more then before Moyes took the reign.

I wish Moyes will leave come summer, I am sick of his tactics and his crap handling of Barkley and Vellios.

Moyes is the prime example of a manager who has outstayed his welcome, and I hope more Everton fans can finally wake up to the fact that Moyes has done all he can, but that he can never get us back to where we were!!

We need a NEW manager with some attacking DNA.
Phil Bellis
615   Posted 21/03/2012 at 12:58:42

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Howard, if you define success as staying in the Prem, then, yes, he's a success
Moyes is also a victiim of the Board he works with
Trouble is, as I'm sure you know, many of us have seen the good times and great teams

cue: different world, uneven playing field, obscene money, Clough couldn't do it now, times have changed, you need a billionaire backer to be able to pass and run....
Steve Smith
624   Posted 21/03/2012 at 13:50:24

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Mark, I was there, in tears of joy at the end actually. Was a great day out.

The comment was completely meant in jest, my interpretation of the point through the keyboard was not particularly well construed.
Tony J Williams
627   Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:23:19

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Jimmy, will you just for once get involved with a post without mentioning Yakubu.

He wasn't doing it for us so he was dumped, get over it.
Michael Brien
628   Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:20:23

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In my opinion we have a good squad - but the real issue is do we have a manager/coach who will get the best out of those players? Again and this is just my opinion - I think that there are better managers out there who could get more out of our squad and have the players playing to the best of their potential.

There is always the excuse of lack of money - well Brendan Rodgers at Swansea hasn't exactly been given shed loads of money to spend on his squad has he ? And look what he has done and the quality of the football that they play.

I can understand playing a lone striker in certain matches - but Moyes does that in about 95% of our games. Is it any wonder that Saha has been playing well for Spurs when he has been - mostly - playing alongside another striker?

The view of the media seems to be that we should think ourselves lucky that we have Moyes as our manager. That he has saved us. That without him we would be in The Championship or even lower.The "cult of the Moyesiah" it would seem. That we should be careful what we wish for as Mark Lawrenson would say !!!

Well here's what I wish for in terms of a manager - a manager who will play attractive, attacking football in the traditions of Everton. I hope I really do that Moyes is the man - but for the last 2 or 3 seasons I have my doubts. Not a Moyes hater - I don't like the word hate - more a "Frustrated With Moyes" Evertonian. It's like Gordon Lee and how he got rid of Duncan McKenzie nad changed us from being great to watch to dull and predictable.
Dan McKie
632   Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:36:29

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Doddy, so you think we absolutely have the best person in the world for the team that Everton have, so no point in changing? I want to see some attractive, attacking football and believe there are managers out there that could do it.

People always mention Holloway, Rodgers, Lambert etc. but why not? They all got underdogs out of the Championship into the Premier League; Moyes nearly did. We should have known what we were getting then.

Holloway: 1 game at Anfield, 1 win!!! Yes, Blackpool went down, but that was because they had League 1 and 2 defenders. Had he have had Hibbert, Distin, Heitinga and Baines, they wouldn't have gone down.

What I'm saying is we can't let fear of going back to the 90s stop us from dreaming of more with what little we have. Moyes is showing less and less enthusiasm each season; something has to give. Keeping us in the Premier League is not a success, as every Everton manager since the year dot has managed that (or former Division 1).
Stephen Kenny
633   Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:49:36

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There won't be a Moyes out chant.

Even members of the MOB have got a modicum of respect left for the man, even after the derby.
John Barnes
634   Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:58:55

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Yes, you should stick with winning team, and yes squads should be rotated, players rested, players bought and sold, attack, defend. Play experienced players, introduce youth. Experiment, play safe, make subs, leave the 11 on the pitch. All these things apply at different times given different circumstances. It's just a pity Moyes seems to get it wrong so often.
Mike Gaynes
635   Posted 21/03/2012 at 14:54:27

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Saha's been playing well for Spurs because he's gotten motivated by the changeover, which is human nature, and because he's been surrounded by far better offensive players, not just a second striker.

The simple fact is that we've always had inferior talent. How many of our current players would even get a look in for the RS, let alone any of the teams above them? Maybe Baines, maybe Fellaini, but nobody else. Compare Arsenal's lineup tonight with ours, position by position, and you see superior talent at almost every spot on the field. Yet we regularly beat the top sides, at least at home, and I think Moyes deserves great credit for that, Tuesday's disaster notwithstanding.
James Martin
636   Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:04:20

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Dan and Michael, its a bit unfair on Moyes to ask for someone else to come in using the argument that they oculd get more out of the players. Who put that squad together in the first place? if he's got a fantastic defence with Distin Heitinga and Baines all being top players, it wasn't because he was lucky, they're all his buys. How much more could he get out of these players? Baines was a shadow of the player he is now when he joined us. Moyes has developed him into one of the premer leagues best left backs.

Dan McKie
637   Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:13:41

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James, Baines was very young at Wigan and had only had one year in the premier league, which they survived, and got to a cup final, so he couldnt have been bad. Also, was part of his development keeping him on the bench for a year while we played a centre back in his position? Moyes was lucky that Baines loved the club cos he could have been gone before he even got started here. So what if he bought these players? We have seen him turn a 20+ goal Yak and a previously thought of world class Saha into shadows of the players they were. Andy Johnson and James Beattie were overrated to begin with, but he hardly made the best of them neither. What about the 2 or 3 years of Arteta on the right wing whilst watching Neville and Carsley wow us with their skills in the middle? Its all about 'working hard' and 'keeping it tight' with Moyes.
Dan McKie
638   Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:22:27

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Thats another thing, when will he ever buy a right winger? Its like since Van Der Meyde, he has fallen out with the position as a whole.
Dave Francis
640   Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:23:12

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Ged, firstly the nightmare that was the derby was all down to Moyes and not only did it hurt but it was also disgraceful. To give the RS an easy three points is totally unacceptable.

Secondly, however I think knee-jerk reactions are not what is required right now. To say "Get rid of Moyes" at this moment in time would be wrong as we are still in the FA Cup and there is every chance we could go through to the Semi-Final, especially with a chance of revenge... what more incentive would the players require?

I think what we as Evertonians need is a sense of positivity and get behind the team. COYB.
James Martin
641   Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:45:17

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Was Arteta not good on the wing? How many games did he win us playing out there? Lescott was magnificent at LB as he was at centreback so you can understand why Moyes left him out for a while. looking at baines as a finished product now though you can't say that Moyes hasn't developed him. He bought him brought him to the club and turned him into the leagues best left back, that's good management. Yak was 20 goals under Moyes! How is it Moyes fault that he got a cruciate ligament afterwards and never re-captured his form for Everton. Yes he's banging them in now for blackburn but he wasn't cutting it for Everton. MOyes had shown though he could build a team that could get Yakubu 20 goals. Andy johnson has been rubbish at Fulham and only really had one good season in the prem with Crystal palace.

You can't just say 'so what if he bought those players' then list 2 or 3 debatable bad buys and a few that didn't work out. If we're compiling a list of Moyes' good buys v his bad buys then one is going to be considerably longer than the other. If there's a good squad of players here at Everton at the moment then that is down to Moyes. You can argue that someone else could take things in a different direction but you can't criticise Moyes for betraying this good group of players without acknowledging that it was him who put them together.
Jamie Barlow
643   Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:55:17

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Dan, that centre back was voted Players Player of the season that year and scored 8 goals from left back.
I also think its a bit unfair to blame Moyes for Yakubus form after coming back from a terrible injury.

You still haven't answered my question from post 593.
Neal King
645   Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:03:06

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Ste Kenny 633

For the past 2 years I've wanted a change and thought thanks For everything Mr Moyes but now time to move on with all our best wishes......... after the derby the fucker has lost all respect from me and he should be fucked off sooner rather than later.

Brian Keoghan
647   Posted 21/03/2012 at 15:30:42

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Good post Ged;I like Moyes as I think he has given us honesty and dignity during the last decade.Everton and Moyes are respected in the game and when you look back to a period which included Peter Johnson,Walter Smith,Mitch Ward,Howard's third term,losing in the cup to Tranmere etc,etc,we are no longer the laughing stock we were then thanks to Moyes.However,this last week our manager insulted all Evertonians with his attitude towards the Derby game;even if his "6 changes" had paid off against Sunderland,it was still unforgivable. As we now know,it did not pay off in the quarter final and makes me wonder what he will do for the Swansea game;will he throw this game away in order to concentrate on Sunderland?
Dan McKie
649   Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:03:27

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He was still limited as a left back, and he went up for the corners like he would have done in his correct position of centre back, so to say he scored 8 goals 'from left back' is a bit of a stretch, and also, did he not improve even further playing in his correct position the next season?

I didnt mean it to sound like I had quoted Moyes saying 'I dont care'. It was his attitude afterwards, the 'no regrets whatsoever' talk or the fact that he would have been happy to take 2 points from spurs and liverpool, but got 3. The irony being that the fans would have probably been much happier had we drawn both games.

James, there is a good squad of players here, but Moyes cant get them playing to their potential when the shackles of defensive responsibilty first is on each and every one of them. The right wing was not Artetas position, just as it isnt Coleman's, or Anichebe's, or Osman's, but you could probably pick a few games where they have done alright playing there. Also, Cahill can go 13 months without scoring, and barely contributing to each game, and still be the first name on the team sheet, yet Barkley or Drenthe only need to give the ball away once or twice and its back to the U18's or the bench. We need a new man in charge, someone who can gee the players up, from august to may, not january to march.
Tony J Williams
653   Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:33:51

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"He was still limited as a left back, and he went up for the corners like he would have done in his correct position of centre back, so to say he scored 8 goals 'from left back' is a bit of a stretch" - No it's not, he was playing at left back and I'm sure he actually reached double figures in goals.

This limited left back actually received his call up for England when playing at left back for us.

Arteta won Everton player of the season the two years he was on the right wing....must have done something right
Dan McKie
656   Posted 21/03/2012 at 16:56:02

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Fellaini scored 9 goals for us when playing up front, so is he a striker? Arteta would play well in most positions on the pitch because he is a good player, but that doesnt mean he was a right winger. Moyes plays players out of position every single game, and for prolonged periods of every single season. That is my point.

Lescott was a good defender, and scored a few goals from corners, but couldnt overlap nearly as good as Baines, or ever get a cross in. A left back he was not.
Michael Brien
660   Posted 21/03/2012 at 17:14:34

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Dan - Moyes may well have signed the players but that doesn't mean that he will get the best out of them. Yak is in form at Blackburn, Johnson hasn't been a disaster at Fulham as he has had a serious injury which sidelined him - so it's a bit unfair to judge. But at Everton, it seemed to me that Moyes didn't know how to use him and he ended up being a winger!!!

And as regards Baines have you forgotten that Moyes actually said one of the reasons he wasn't in the team when he first came was that he wasn't a tall player ?!! So presumably when he signed for Everton - he lied about his height did he ?!!!

I could mention playing Cahill as a lone striker - but don't get me started on that one!!!! He has potentially ruined a good midfield player.
Tony J Williams
663   Posted 21/03/2012 at 17:08:28

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I agree he plays players out of position but you can't argue with the results of when he played Lescott at left back and Arteta on the wing
Dan McKie
665   Posted 21/03/2012 at 17:38:40

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Yeah but Tony, you can't have it both ways. I can't moan about him playing the likes of Neville, Heitinga and even Jags for a short spell in midfield, but then praise for the couple of instances where it has worked. Coleman is the worst right now, never a right winger, but remember that spurs game from 2 seasons ago, the one where he terrorised them? Doesn't change the fact that it should have stopped months ago.

Michael, I do remember he went for height, and he also questioned Baines defending, so was basically saying that he paid 6 million for a short arse left back that couldn't defend.
James Martin
668   Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:09:01

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Baines defending did use to be terrible, in fact most of last season our goals were being leaked from that side. Great going forward but he wasn't always sound defensively,. he's been a lot more solid this seaosn but has still had occassional bad lapses. You cannot say Baines hasn't had constant improvement with Everton under Moyes. Some people have been out of position in the past due to a lack of options. It was either Arteta putting in sublime player of the season award winning performances on the left wing or it was Kilbane or Naysmith, at the itme which would you have preferred? The only reason Arteta was moved out there wa sbecause he was getting drowned in the middle and back then wasn't good enough to play there. he was when Moyes moved him back a couple of seasons later. Cahill as played upfront as a lone striker, but it started out because we had no fit strikers. He stayed there for a period because he was scoring more goals there than some of the half fit options like Anichebe.

Rooney played on the left for United, Gerrard did it for Liverpool on the right. Essien has played RB for Chelsea, Mascherano plays CB for Barcelona. Most managers do it occasionally, its not just a failing specific to Moyes. Yes i can't understand why Osman gets a game out wide when he should be in the middle. When Pienaar is cup tied and Drenthe is on the other flank what option apart from Coleman do we have out wide? The Derby game aside, who has been playign out of position recently? We've had Drenthe Piennar and Coleman on the wings. Fellaini, Osman or Rodwell in the middle, and Cahill behind Jelavic.
James Morgan
669   Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:13:03

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He is the guest that won't leave. I used to be a Moyes fan but over the past 18 months - 2 years he has ground me down with his boring defensive football, ridiculous substitutions, loyalty to certain players and inability to kill teams off.
But who could do better? He has won 3 LMA awards! Zzzz save it.
People in football are too scared of change. Some people in will point to the longevity of SAF, and I can understand why, but he recycles his teams and staff when necessary to keep things fresh. I think Moyes' time has come to seek pastures new.
Jim Harrison
671   Posted 21/03/2012 at 18:57:09

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what a load of bollocks.
Phil Brown
675   Posted 21/03/2012 at 19:01:58

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James # 669 Absolutely agree, who'd heard of David Moyes before he joined us? There is plenty of hungary talent out there.
Andy Crooks
677   Posted 21/03/2012 at 19:39:40

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Tony J , I disagree about Lescott at left back. He kept Baines out of the side and to me it was an example of Moyes failing to make a decision. Shaun, I suppose you're gone by now but who wants a website where everyone endorses your views. Yeah, there's quite a bit of negativity at the minute but a win at Sunderland will see whingers like me back in the minority again.
Dick Fearon
678   Posted 21/03/2012 at 19:33:57

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My biggest whinge about Moyes and this includes his coaching panel is their inability to correct players basic faults.
Over the months, in some cases years, I have named the players and their faults so I won't bother repeating them.
Anyone with half a brain can do the same but can anyone tell me a single case where there's been signs of improvement.
In most cases they have got worse if anything. I would love to have a web cam at Finch Farm so I could see what the hell kind of coaching if any takes place there.
Jamie Barlow
680   Posted 21/03/2012 at 22:07:16

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What do you mean, ""failing to make a decision Andy"?

He made a decision to play Lescott at left-back.
John Ford
687   Posted 21/03/2012 at 22:36:42

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Dick, Moyes's time at Everton is notable precisely because he improves the quality of his players:

Arteta ? made his name at Everton with very little before;

Cahill ? decent at Millwall but became a good top level player with us;

Lescott ? again became a fine player with us;

Jagielka ? great until recent poor form;

Baines ? come on a treat since he's been here.

Gravesen ? I'll be careful with this cos it took a while coming, but he was completely dominant in the period before he went to Madrid, there was no-one to touch him... short-lived but what a star;

Pienaar ? apparently can only be a decent player in a blue shirt;

Carsley ? limited but did a great job.

...and there are others, I'm sure. Okay, there are players who haven't done it, that's true for every manager, but he has without question got more bang for his buck than most.
Gavin Ramejkis
689   Posted 21/03/2012 at 23:01:54

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John #687, bit myopic on some of them

Arteta had a decent stab at quality at PSG where he outshone Ronaldinho and then a decent career at Rangers before getting homesick

Cahill was just as good at Millwall they just werent a top side

Lescott kneecapped to miss his first chance at top flight but again just as good in a poorer side

Jagielka a stalwart at Sheff Utd

Baines a decent player for Wigan but in a poorer side

Graveson hit and miss everywhere including us but the season he got sold

Pienaar a decent player at Ajax who lost his way when he left them for Dortmund

Carsley just was Carsley

All in all did Moyes improve them or just bring them to a club with better players?

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