Fan reaction forces rethink on new badge

My guess is someone from Nike said "Fucking sort it"

What I found amusing is that it says BK demanded consultation from the fans, then goes on to admit that they didn't do this properly. Surely any self respecting, ahem,businessman/ chairman should sack the incompetent parties? Or did BK actually demand anything at all?
All in all, this shambles typifies the lack of true leadership and business acumen at the club. Sad.

Would have loved to have been on those meetings today!

Oh! and well done to the club for taking note.

I don't know what is worse-the badge design itself or the club's shambolic handling of the whole sorry affair.

The practicalities of withdrawing the badge for this season are reasonable enough (although I presume that was part of the motivation for their announcing it *after* all the merch orders etc were in place).

While I have no doubt that the club hopes there'll be less passion about this a year from now, and they'll escape with only minor tweaks to the existing design, it's probably about the best realistic response from them at this point.

They've spun it as the main issue fans had was the lack of NSNO; which lets them work at a tweaked version of the new badge incorporating that. Which is a shame, really, because the main issue is just how cheap and tacky it looks.

Still, credit where it's due, given the situation they set themselves up in, at least they were forced into a reasonable response.

I don't know what is worse — the badge design itself or the club's shambolic handling of the whole sorry affair.

Rare as rocking-horse shite under these clowns.

Well I hope nobody buys anything with this tat on it.

Our genius marketing dept need to look at monthly sales figures for the next 12 months and each time think "Jesus, what a fucking disaster, the sooner we can get this changed the better".

The design thread on TW (including designs) showed that it could have been done quickly and simply online with no bad feeling and everyone feeling they had a say/vote.

Power to the People's Club's people!

Don't canvas fans forums or set up an inclusive consultation process or any other bollocks Mr Elstone. Just pick 20 designs that are knocking around all over the internet, post them all up on the website and allow people to vote on it with a mouse click.

Job done! And you won't have to employ any extra Liverpool fans to organise/consult/collate/fellate or anything else.

Bundle up the replica kits and send them off to join the Rooney shirts we gave away in 2002

Why not ship all the new merchandise to the Far East, China, Africa and sell it or give it away to promote the Everton brand name. Then introduce a range of products for next season called "original Everton wear" with the first original logo on it for fans to buy, as a souvenir.

There could be a fans' survey done to see if these would "fly off the shelves", even for people who don't normally buy merchandise. Why not make the last few days be recorded in our history as the time the fans spoke loud and clear to the club, the club listened, sorted the problem and moved on.

I think I would buy an Everton top with the original logo on it and would send my wife the link to it for my Christmas pressy if it were available to buy on the official website. Would anyone else do the same? Yay or Nay.

The right decision would have been to stop production of it immediately and revert back to the old badge for this coming season. For that reason, the apology is hollow.

Instead, they have gone ahead and plastered it everywhere already.... and they are NOT backing down from that!

Elstone: 'would you like to buy a shirt with the new badge?'

22,000 Fans: 'stick the fucking badge up your arse.'

We've listened! Couldn't write it.

"We regret we didn't ask every Evertonian about something that matters so much to every one of you".

Didn't have to be every one but at least using forum's season ticket holders etc.

"It is also clear that whilst the Fans' Forum is an excellent and effective group of representative fans".

No way representative!

Etc etc. I can't be arsed to cut and paste other tripe in this statement from them. Read the full thing.

Now back to more important matters... IMWT

If you only listened to the fans in the first place, we wouldn't be in this situation that we are now.

They should realise that it has got fuck all to do with the crest. It has everything to do with how they have been treating fans with utter contempt for the past 10 years. The reason that they have come out and admitted their error is because they know full well that it was going to escalate into an all out 'Sack the Board' campaign. This is all about damage limitation. I just hope that they have taken it too far this time.

Of all the fuck ups over the years, it took the changing of the badge to finally get the appropriate reaction. I believe that some of Bill's most avid fans are finally taking this opportunity to turn against him, especially as they could never admit to being wrong over Kirby.

This was simply the last straw.

What happens if Bill sells the club? Will it be another condition of the sale to get rid of the shite badge? He promised the fans.

Personally I'd have preferred they got it sorted out and stopped now, not kicked it into the long grass.

Thats my kind of dialogue.

So now they're telling us this badge will be here for a year and then we'll have another new one the following year in which we can be part of the design? Are these people for real?

Peter, how true...an allegedly "insignificant" thing compared to Kings Dock, Kirkby etc united us all (well, apart from the usual ""get-over-its")

It's been the internet equivalent of cushions raining onto the pitch: I shall enjoy a pint or two tonight and toast my fellow-Blues in thanks - but let's not take our eye off the EFC hierarchy

Every step you take...

If they are sincere in what they say about changing it again next season, why waste money that we don't have rebranding the stadium for instance. If the kits are already manufactured, fair enough.

If they continue to spend money unnecesarily on this load of crap then they are simply telling us a pack of lies AGAIN, and they have absolutely no intention whatsoever of rectifying their mistake.

Did not consult the fans and have essentially sprung this on them.

Lied that they had had extensive consultation.

Have now backtracked and admitted that they didn’t.

I believe the club essentially thought that this decision was either too big to involve us or would or be too difficult to manage if they did / would not get what they wanted if they did, so they tried to sneak it in through the back door like we wouldn’t notice!

Either way I genuinely think we’ve been treated with contempt and the reaction has given them a bit of a shock

“Jesus Christ, seems like those fans have got an opinion after all….!”

The old emblem should be reinstated as of now - if that means that it costs the club in terms of merchandise then so be it – these are the consequences of bad decision making and bad management and in future will make them think twice about who, ultimately, supports and buys their “brand”.

Keep an eye on what develops – I still think they’re banking on us getting used to it and it staying put, or if not will roll out a dutch auction of four different crests to be voted on by the fans – a shit one, a really shit one, one you wouldn’t vote for in a million years….. and the one they wanted all along.

But, hey, maybe I’m just a bit cynical. Either way, a complete cock up - at least they’ve recognised that instead of digging their heels in.

This is classic PR from Goodison in order for us to continue buying so that they don't loose money but I think they'll have no option but to change sooner if the sales aren't there... Money talks!!!

The EFC thinktank that commissioned the crap in the first place ought to be emptied out and refilled with fans who care!

Cap doffed.

They'll be pissed off when next season's income is about 10p but we should still receive the same amount as if we'd sold a billion tops? What makes the deal so stupid should help us in this (ludicrous) case. I'd check the small print if I was Kitbag but in short, who cares about them?!

This is just another sad and pathetic episode of the Kenwright era when all's said and done.

The other thing that has really pissed me off is, I have been a contributing forum member to the echo website for easy over four years, and they change how people can comment ie, Facebook only! and say it's easier?

I am a computer engineer and a wise blue, I don't want, need, or use Facebook because I think it infringes on our privacy. Oh and guess what: you can see the tumbleweed pass by that site now, if they didn't change it there would be HUNDREDS maybe even thousands of blues unhappy with the new very very shit attempt at a badge.... Coincidence? — doubtful.

Now it turns out what they needed was "transparency"!!!! Their arrogant incompetence knows no limits.

I wonder if the club will cash in?

Plenty of clubs do polls on future club crests. Let's hope they manage such a poll better next year.

To echo the sentiments made above, a boycott of merchandise with the "interim" crest on will be a message loud and clear to Nike/Kitbag etc. They will be the ones who will ultimately force the board to rethink this whole issue.

A one year limited edition, collectors item (ha - no-one's arsed to collect).

They'll be stuck with loads of tat to sell off at a low price at Xmas & the end of the season. I can see it not being used on Xmas stuff if commercial deals aren't already in place.

What's the bet that the crest is printed onto this seasons shirts rathe than embroidered like the traditional badge? This (in the interest of modernisation and all the other good buzzwords bandied about on the OS, of course) will make the manufacturing process cheaper and hence the club more revenue from sales. If the shirts sell.............. Funny how it''s backfired.

Think I'll wait until the buy one get one free offer comes out next March if I buy one at all.

Give it up man

Do you know football teams that play in red tend to win more often? Well. how's about making that change, then, you old change fanatic?

The fanbase aren’t stupid. If they’d come out an explained that the badge needed changing, and simplifying, for commercial reasons I’m pretty sure we would’ve all listened.

I for one think the crest could probably do with a bit of a rethink / brush up. I don’t necessarily see the need for the word “Everton” on the crest and that the scroll design for the motto could be updated - that would simplify it for starters. If I was shown some common sense evidence explaining the changes then maybe I’d be talked round. The same goes for the wreaths, the motto, the shape of the tower etc. I think the mistake they made was it wasn’t simply tweaking the crest, it was changing it dramatically and this was always going to cause a dramatic reaction if not handled carefully.

Done properly they could have got us excited and involved in helping improve and shape the identity of the club though, it could’ve been great. Instead they’ve made us feel excluded, angry and resentful about it.

No one speaks Latin anymore?

That is fucking GENIUS!!!

Oh wait...No one lives in 1878 anymore.

D'OH!!!

Spend the money, fix it now..fix it properly.

As I mentioned on the other thread the core issue here is the type of people who make these errors in the first place don't do it just once..I don't expect them to announce sackings/termination of contracts..but not one thing in this process was done even in a barely satisfactory way..we saw the output.

They should not be allowed to just whitewash over this with frightened platitudes. 1) withdraw it 2) create a proper one 3) review how the hell it happened. All the above should be managed by someone above and independent of the original process with the power to change things.

I wouldn't bet on it mate. I can't help but thinking that none of the Everton staff have read the small print in the Kitbag Deal.

There is no way Kitbag will lose anything. Any losses will come out of our massive £3m share. The £3m will be our Maximum income depending on sales.

This is just my opinion of course. An opinion based on other incompetent practises of the current board.

We've been treated like shit again. If BK came up on a big screen in front of us yesterday most would have booed, if he came up on a big screen now most would probably clap again.

No real Evertonian is going to buy this to sell on ebay in years to come, I still wouldnt buy it if it was FREE.

I am pleased it is going to get binned though.

And if you know your history it's enough to make ......a better design.

I certainly wont be buying anything with the new badge.

Anyone buying it deserves to be screwed imo (and not in the good way)

If it ain't broke......

I dunno mate but I am waiting for that day when he fucks off to the pigs pen, I don't profess to have all the answers because I don't know much about big buisness or how it works, but I m a blue to the core and I can spot a snide from a mile off.
BK must have known about this from start to finish and did he really think we would say WOW great clipart there bill, send me 100 shirts?
they're so out of touch it's unreal, I live in France and still know the pulse of my club more than the blue bill and the, suits! shocking stuff.

How many millions of pounds will be lost to this idiocy? Names should be named. Who initiated the process? Who supervised it? And who agreed to it? Once identified, the guilty parties should be let go. This is not just a silly decision, it is a financial ruin. Evertonians, email, demand names.

Any future design is straightforward. Our crest needs to incorporate, and nothing more, the distinctive badge shape, the laurel wreaths, our latin motto Nil Satis Nisi Optimum and the original design of Prince Rupert's Tower. We would accept almost any design as long as it maintained these elements.

It would be best if people resisted buying any merchandise. The logic of keeping the crest for a season doesn't make sense. They will lose more money keeping it for a year than they would by ditching it now.

I see no reason why the new crest should remain on the Everton website either, or in the ground, or anywhere, but on the kits.

1 - This could have been avoided if there was not a siege mentality at the club. But they cancel AGMs, refuse to meet democratically elected shareholders' reps, and want to pick and choose "fans forum" members. The gulf between board and supporters is now a problem.

2 - I would not be surprised if they are kind of hoping that the fuss will die down and that everyone willhave forgotten about it by this time next year.

3 - Merchandising boycotts would be fine, but because of the dreadful Kitbag exclusivity deal, we are forced to boycott Everton merchandise anyway because you can't find it in any shops to buy.

4 - The new badge is awful but for me this episode is more about the hopeless management style and ability of the Board than the design of the crest.

And it says supporters clubs, the fans forum and Everton in the Community will be involved in consultation over the new crest next summer. The fucking same people who had a say over this mess.

Let's get it stopped before it can be used on the coming seasons shirts and around the ground and in the media.

I can appreciate that the people 'running' the club need to make Everton into a brand and they need a strategy if we are going to compete in today's footballing world. We have to evolve to survive, but it needs to be done the right way, not just by fait accompli.

Personally I think the old badge had some flaws. The faded blue in the centre looked awful and I understand the logic of simplifying some elements, such as the removal of the motto, and containing all the elements within the badge. It just needs to be a better design!

I hope this is the end of the matter now and we have a great season under the new manager and play in Europe the season after next with a classy new badge that the majority of fans approve of.

Elstone is an incompetent dick. Even his apology makes you want to piss on his shoes.

Surely, Kitbag have signed a deal to supply our kit. If the expected supply is inadequate (and it seems it is) why can't we renegotiate? There must be something in contract law about poor performance? Could the club announce a meeting with Kitbag and publicise their negotiating point thereby either forcing Kitbag closer to our interests or significantly denting their future earning potential by effectively warning other clubs about them?

One thing I will say is that there is definitely something strange about the guy on Twitter - @NoToNewEFCBadge.

He tweeted a message yesterday about journalists from The Times that had nothing to do with this campaign. There's definitely a hidden agenda and he won't want to lose all the followers he's gathered.

Colin #865 - seeing as Bill opted for your favoured approach, how do you think he feels it all went today?

Er, ever heard of market research?

Nailed it. I would just have loved to be a fly on the conference call between Nike, Kitbag and Elstone.
Elstone " I just don't understand it. We've been treating the fans like fucking idiots for years. This has never happened before"
Nike " can't you get you PR team to go on the offensive and create a hearts and minds campaign around the new badge"

......... Long silence ensues.

What is interesting for me about all this is not the new badge, I don't give a shit to be honest but I understand those that do. It is more a protest about the administration of this club. The truth is that the only way to get a reaction is to hit where it hurts.... In the pocket.

And more importantly, will it buy a house on merseyside afterwards and constantly be used for soundbites in interviews every time the everton strip is mentioned?

Nice one! You are Nikolai Gogol and I claim my five pounds. 😃

Better that than no fuckin plan at all

The idea of just incorporating some elements is a sound one. As for the nil satis...did it appear in the mid-80s when we really lived up to it? I don't think it did. That was far more minimialist, and worked.

The offence? The new Nike shirts had a white (Madrid) swoosh. The subsequent jerseys were given a yellow swoosh, which remains. Loved that story.

However, I am not advocating anything similar and hope I haven't sowed any seeds of club merch destruction.!!

Elstone "Fuck them Bill, we'll just put out a statement with a blag apology and some bullshit about changing it after next season, this lot are as gullible as fuck, they'll swallow it"

Dead right

The Tower, laurel wreaths and Latin motto have been the club crest since the late 30s

What's been on or, for most of our existence, not been on the player's shirts is a separate history

Looks like I'm going to have to ferret about in the loft to check out all my old Charles Buchan's Football Monthlies, Topical Times Football Annuals and my shoeboxes of old programmes

Football fans are different to 'customers' of other "products" because it is far more difficult for us to walk away to a competitor. Hence, if we dislike what's happening to the "product" we can only complain, more so than with many other things, which is what you are seeing now.

The identity of the club needs to strongly represent the club and this design probably works for some markets that Everton need to get bigger in, the USA and Asia for example.

Personally, although I really dislike how "dumb" this design looks, if it meant revenues increased by a few million a year, I'd happily put up with it for a good few years.

(to use a business term, I know fuck-all).

But I DO know that if 91% of your customers told you "It's shite and we won't buy it", to ignore this and continue anyway would be stupidity on a grand scale (no matter what anyone else does).

And stupidity is what this was.

Prince Rupert's Tower is in more accurate proportion on the new badge though!

The reason Everton have to be different, is due to the emotional resonance the crest inspires amongst the support; it's cultural identity, a lifetime of belonging to a cause.

You can't reduce it to a mere corporate logo...

You have to do an awful lot to completely alienate a fanbase but what usually happens then is its not the owners that make the fans walk, but the fans that make the owners walk. And I think Kenwright is starting to feel more and more uncomfortable as the dismay directed towards his tenure builds.

But the beauty is we don't have to buy it! That's the power of the customer. You say they can rely on us, well don't count me in.
I always thought that any economic protest could be counter productive. Well maybe we should support the club but not the board. Keep turning up at Goodison in record numbers but boycott all commercial activity. No shirt sales, no car stickers, no golf club covers.
In the short term it won't affect the team but it certainly might accelerate any sale process.
The whole badge fiasco is a perfect opportunity to unite those supporters who don't want to march before a game but want this gang of opportunists out of the club. I would suggest a Black Watch protest, black and red scarves. Keep supporting the team but opposed to the board.

Imagine new owners and a new manager, never mind a new badge.....

Yet we still have a new crest.

Another entry into "how stuff works".

You are 100 per cent correct they are fearful of a boycott of goods and the usual amount of money I spend on kits and merchandise for my son will not happen this year. I am appalled by their arrogance and lies (let's face it it's not the first time) but more than anything is their total contempt for the match going fans is incredible. I think the announcement today and is,a shite attempt to pacify us and stop the fans getting mobilised over other issues at the club. All it took was an e-petition to activate us, no marches or gestures. I think the Black Watch idea is a good one as it will be a visual display of our contempt for the way this club is being run. I would like too see the old drama queen and elstone explain that away on sky.

Mike, maybe Bill is ready for a nice retirement, that's he only way things will change!

So lets just keep the status quo then? My quandary is that I love this club and would not want to damage the team.
We need new ownership, that may involve the risk of something worse however the lower the price the more that risk is mitigated.
This board needs to be forced to sell, the only way you do that is with a financial imperative.
A grass roots campaign of pro team / anti board could bring that about. My Black Watch is maybe a lame approach but anything that hurts the pockets of our Board will have an effect.

We have listened to the fans and observed their demonstrations at Goodison Park this season so for the 2014-15 we have asked the manufaxturer to stop production of our current shirts and incorporate the 'bee-hive' design on our Red and Black shirts with black shorts and red socks. We really do respond to our fans after all we are the people's club.

Well I have, Mr Kenwright, had enough. Please go.

A BLATANT cockup defferred for a year ?

Is this what SIr John Moores would have deemed acceptable ?
No

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Just because that standard is too challenging for YOU doesn't mean you have the right to remove it.

Quite the reverse.

I'll get me coat...........

The badge is crap, but it works in the new digital world. The more money we pull in, the more money we can spend on new signings. Wake up everybody: we are not a charity, we are a business.

I have supported Everton since I was 4, my Dad is a RedShite and bought the wrong Easter Egg mug for me with a pretty shite emblem and my younger brother got the red one... He is now a toffee too!

We have to make money and by not buying merchandise we are shooting the club in the foot. If they change our kit to red and put a a liverbird on it... time to moan.

We need an new manager and an injection of players to take us forward. We challenged and failed at a top four finish, but played some good footy while doing so. We can do better; it is not what we fans think about the badge, it is what our team can do on the pitch and how we support them... COYB. Howard Kendall years where the best in my memory, but we are not there now... LET US MOVE FORWARD. NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM!

"Prince Rupert's Tower is in more accurate proportion on the new badge though!"

Agreed, so is the latest album representation of Stevie Nicks; however, I still, without a doubt, prefer the older version of the lady

If she'd only have played her cards right....

Proof if proof were ever needed that EVERTONIANS not only know their history, but some of us know it in classical Latin.

And in My Dad's case Ancient Greek too.
(Me Dad went to the collegiate

On Shaw St, just down from St Ruperts Tower

And for that tenuous link I shall get My coat
(But NOT one with that horrible cartoon mockery on it)

Now I want to know how Tim Howard really thinks about this logo device.

I won't even buy a knock off copy of a shirt with that awful ToonTown Logo on it and was planning to take my daughter on the Goodison Tour next month but will have second thoughts if that logo is adorning the ground.

In 50 years of being an Evertonian I have never heard it called a turret.

Makes me wonder who worded the statement? Sounds like an external PR company to me.

They have nearly three months to take down all the signage put up around Goodison last week and restore the proper badge until a new acceptable one is designed.

Bet they don't do it though and I reckon its only 50/50 at best they will redesign the badge through a vote we can all contribute to. Using the word turret in the statement shows these people have not a scooby doo what they are doing.

I can't trust them anymore.

Personally I think the old badge is probably the classiest in the premiership and if not too simplistic to say, it just looks bloody good, aesthetically pleasing and translates the meaning and ethos of the club very well. It might be a good idea to have another poll asking if supporters want reinstatement of the old badge or would be happy to see the badge 'evolve' as long as it was acceptable to at least a majority of us and retained its attachment to the ethos of the club.

Otherwise we could end up with a situation where the club only listens to fans who don't mind the crest changing and reinstatement of the old one is a non starter (which already seems to be the implication in the club statement)

We have to keep on top of this or the club will be hoping that all objections will fade away during the course of next season and they will get their way by default.

As far as I am concerned, as much as I would wish for the reinstatement of the old crest, I would be happy to go along with a new one as long as it was generally acceptable to the supporters, retained the class of the old one and wasn't a fucking joke!

I hope the answer you have speaks volumes of what the club are trying to do here.

They know that over the year more and more people will start buying the merchandise. Time is a great healer and all that. They are betting on that in 12 months time all this fuss will have gone away. Just like potential takeovers etc have been used in the past etc.

You can bet that Nike were behind forcing the clubs hand and not the club themsleves. Media exposure and fan pressure on Nike made this change happen.

Face facts, if the club and Nike thought that the fans would not start buying the merchandise they would not accept 12 months of minimal sales etc. They have not manufactured a years worth of stock now.
If we were serious about not buying enough merchandise then it would be cost effective to change now. Cut their losses and all that.

We may have a choice here fellow Evertonians, pat ourselves on the back for a small victory or fight on for a real victory?

Doesn't that also apply to the year and the name Everton?

"...who am I to disagree?" Oh dear

Yes it is that awful. This was done 'on the cheap' by an 'in-house' design team. What any new crest have to have is our ethos, our soul, our heritage... this has none of those.

Some of the recent redesigns of football crests have been beautifully executed (see Chris Mitchell's work) - ours has simply been executed.

The club have backed down? Really? Listened to the fans? Not a chance, to Nike maybe, fans? Why change the habit of a lifetime.

They have been economical with the truth, backtracked and bought themselves time because they got Sussed big time, embarrassingly so, by telling everyone they had consulted fans, shareholders et al, just another little white lie, not!

Charlatans, manipulators, if anyone was in doubt that the power of fans and resultant publicity works then consider what would happen with a conserted effort of the supporters to raise the issues of ownership of the club and it's mis management.

Yet many still believe...

A promise that they will never keep.

By waiting one year then they hope that tempers will slow down and that they
can do just a minor change on the new badge and all will be okay.

I will never accept this insult, I will not buy one single item as long as this crap badge is on the shirts.
For me it is that simple.

I do not buy crap, and it leaves a cheap stain on all that is Everton FC.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.

The OS apology states "Whilst the time-constraints of kit suppliers in particular present challenges, which inevitably means the version released on Saturday will be in operation for the 2013/14 season"

I take that to mean they are talking about replica kits, mugs, pens, baby bibs and other tat already manufactured
(won't go into my views on them simply "biting the bullet" and getting rid of the lot)

Obvously, therefore, going by that "explanation", the new "badge" will NOT appear around the stadium, in the background at interviews, on the official website etc - only on Kitbag shops/website merchandise
(btw, it is STILL boldy and brazenly displayed on the OS home page)

Let's see shall we

Hmmmm...

http://www.evertonfc.com/nil-satis-nisi-optimum

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/may/29/everton-club-badge-fans-motto

I heard Sharpie on radio this morning and the Fans Forum consulted consisted of 12 people, little surprise there has been such a backlash from a huge number of the fan base! Let's hope they do things a bit cleverer when appointing the next manager!

Imo, anyone using 'we need to move forward', without giving specific details of how we CAN, might as well say "spinggle donggle binggle flubble'.

That's..um...all really.

I'd say that Laurie Penny is a better reason not to fritter away your Roubles on the Gruniad.

Eugene

Why don't you 'kick on' and explain your point further?

Has he changed the crest with full knowledge that no-one will like it, therefore creating the type of hype that has been created. I have read many a fan saying "I'm not buying anything with that piece of shit on it." How much merchandise with the "old" crest was sold in the few days before the announcement of changing it after a season? How much dead stock has he cleared? — Hey, I have bought a polo.

He then announces that "We got in wrong, we will change it again next year... but we are stuck with it for this season." How many of those same fans that said "We are not buying anything" now will, knowing they will have something that only lasted a season? (What happens if we win a cup - is it now a good luck charm, discussion for another time)

And guess what: for all those fans that need to have the current shirt will have to buy another top, polo, scarf or whatever as – guess what – we will have a new crest!!

Can Bill really be a brilliant businessman? Is he really this smart?

The art of speaking without saying anything.

"Yeah, great to see you, we really should do something soon"

(ie: let's do nothing..never)

'Touching bases' and 'paradigms' and 'pushing the envelope' blah wank waffle - a real irritant, especially as one gets older.

'Moving forward' though is one I hear on a daily basis.

Often from shifty-arse politicians feeling hot under the collar.

"Yes we accept viss hasn't been perfect, but if we want to do something constwuctive, we weelly need to move forward..."

(ie: 'get me the fuck out of here!").

Also, it's often said as though from some wise sage "here's something you might not have considered, let's move....FORWARD!"

"Oh fucking GREAT suggestion, I was just about to suggest moving sideways or backwards in a corkscrew motion".

Then there's 'move on' - popular on TW when someone's argument begins to collapse.

"Look, this is pointless, you say Alan Ball was ginger, I say he was blonde, time to move on"

Why?

Very popular in this situation is also 'let's agree to disagree'.

Again, why?

Why not "let's just agree I'm right and you're talking bollocks"?

I'm 100% with Roy Walker on this.

Say what you see.