Fan reaction forces rethink on new badge

, 28 May, 221comments  |  Jump to most recent
Redesigned emblem stays for Season 2013-14
Everton have responded to the overwhelming rejection of their new badge design with an apology regarding the lack of consultation with the fans over the controversial new identity design and a promise of wider consultation on a new crest for the 2014-15 season.

The club stopped short of reversing course completely however; with merchandising already produced, the new emblem will stay for at least the duration of the coming season.

In a statement on the Official Everton website, CEO Robert Elstone said, "We want to put this right. Whilst the time-constraints of kit suppliers in particular present challenges, which inevitably means the version released on Saturday will be in operation for the 2013-14 season, we are determined to give our fans a greater say in how we represent the Club on our jerseys, at Goodison Park and across media around the world.

"In advance of the 2014-15 campaign, we are turning to you to help us shape and refine the badge we'll adopt in the future. Evertonians from all sections of the fan-base will be pulled together in a fully transparent way.

"This group will conduct an in-depth review of all aspects of past and present Club Crests. The panel will then develop ideas and put forward suggestions to you. Evertonians will make the final decision."

Quotes or other material sourced from Official Everton Website



Reader Comments (221)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer


James Morgan
1 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:02:01
I've just read that. I suppose it's tolerable for one season. Lets hope these clowns learn from this.
Shane Corcoran
2 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:03:47
Can someone tell me what the message says. I can't get on the OS.
Eugene Ruane
3 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:08:20
Shane "We were wrong, you were right" basically.

My guess is someone from Nike said "Fucking sort it"

Jay Doyle
4 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:05:30
Ok they've apologised. That's just them shitting themselves that we will boycott the merchandise even if just for one season.

What I found amusing is that it says BK demanded consultation from the fans, then goes on to admit that they didn't do this properly. Surely any self respecting, ahem,businessman/ chairman should sack the incompetent parties? Or did BK actually demand anything at all?
All in all, this shambles typifies the lack of true leadership and business acumen at the club. Sad.

Kevin Tully
5 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:10:57
Shane, the abomination will be with us for this season only - and a fan approved design will be rolled out next season.

Would have loved to have been on those meetings today!

Philip Little
6 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:13:19

Not good enough. This travesty should be thrown on the scrap heap immediately. Who ever shot the club in the foot should be fired and new merchandise with the current (proper) crest be comissioned.
Barry Rathbone
7 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:11:49
Well done to those fans putting the pressure on (shamefully I thought it was a waste of time — glad to be proved wrong on this one).

Oh! and well done to the club for taking note.

Vince Furnier
8 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:13:16
All 2013-14 merchandise with the new logo should be boycotted, less EFC marketing go back on their word, conveniently forget or state in 12 months time that merchandise sales have indicated that, in fact, we do like the new crest and they are going to stick with it anyway.
Frank Key
9 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:12:18
Someone's head should roll for this.

I don't know what is worse-the badge design itself or the club's shambolic handling of the whole sorry affair.

Robin Cannon
10 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:12:08
Fair play to the club.

The practicalities of withdrawing the badge for this season are reasonable enough (although I presume that was part of the motivation for their announcing it *after* all the merch orders etc were in place).

While I have no doubt that the club hopes there'll be less passion about this a year from now, and they'll escape with only minor tweaks to the existing design, it's probably about the best realistic response from them at this point.

They've spun it as the main issue fans had was the lack of NSNO; which lets them work at a tweaked version of the new badge incorporating that. Which is a shame, really, because the main issue is just how cheap and tacky it looks.

Still, credit where it's due, given the situation they set themselves up in, at least they were forced into a reasonable response.

Frank Key
11 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:12:18
Someone's head should roll for this.

I don't know what is worse — the badge design itself or the club's shambolic handling of the whole sorry affair.

Clive McBride
12 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:14:51
I agree with Philip, it's not good enough with our team having to wear that 'paint by numbers' excuse for a club badge for, at least, a whole season.
Ron Sear
14 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:17:29
OK, I might buy something now, but only if they supply me with a free decent badge to stick over the primary school version.
Eugene Ruane
15 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:11:09
Forced to listen eh?

Rare as rocking-horse shite under these clowns.

Well I hope nobody buys anything with this tat on it.

Our genius marketing dept need to look at monthly sales figures for the next 12 months and each time think "Jesus, what a fucking disaster, the sooner we can get this changed the better".

The design thread on TW (including designs) showed that it could have been done quickly and simply online with no bad feeling and everyone feeling they had a say/vote.

James Carlisle
16 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:17:43
This almost exactly like the whole 'new coke' affair in the mid 80s. Hopefully like that, the new badge will just be quitely replaced by the old and we can all forget it ever existed.
Brent Stephens
17 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:17:50
Well, that's a result of sorts! As long as the consultation next time is genuine!

Power to the People's Club's people!

John Gee
18 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:14:30
Maybe the senior staff members, consultants and kit suppliers are all shit at their jobs and are letting the club down.

Don't canvas fans forums or set up an inclusive consultation process or any other bollocks Mr Elstone. Just pick 20 designs that are knocking around all over the internet, post them all up on the website and allow people to vote on it with a mouse click.

Job done! And you won't have to employ any extra Liverpool fans to organise/consult/collate/fellate or anything else.

Phil Bellis
19 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:17:04
Shambles!
There've been more sensible ideas from us "ordinary" fans that from the alleged "media and graphic design experts"

Bundle up the replica kits and send them off to join the Rooney shirts we gave away in 2002

Ross Edwards
20 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:20:42
It's not really an apology though is it? The fact of the matter is that they've succumbed to pressure and have said something to tempararily shut us up.
Even if we voted against next season they'll still completely ignore us.
They will never learn.
Tony I'Anson
22 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:14:24
How can the club turn a crisis into an opportunity?

Why not ship all the new merchandise to the Far East, China, Africa and sell it or give it away to promote the Everton brand name. Then introduce a range of products for next season called "original Everton wear" with the first original logo on it for fans to buy, as a souvenir.

There could be a fans' survey done to see if these would "fly off the shelves", even for people who don't normally buy merchandise. Why not make the last few days be recorded in our history as the time the fans spoke loud and clear to the club, the club listened, sorted the problem and moved on.

I think I would buy an Everton top with the original logo on it and would send my wife the link to it for my Christmas pressy if it were available to buy on the official website. Would anyone else do the same? Yay or Nay.

Paul Andrews
23 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:23:54
Cringeworthy.
Lying oily bastard Elstone "we encourage dialogue" my arse
Michael Kenrick
24 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:22:46
I think is only a partial victory — their solution is that we have to put up with the abomination for a whole season! That is not good enough.

The right decision would have been to stop production of it immediately and revert back to the old badge for this coming season. For that reason, the apology is hollow.

Instead, they have gone ahead and plastered it everywhere already.... and they are NOT backing down from that!

Peter Thistle
25 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:24:50
It will annoy me to look at that crest all season but at least it's only temporary, I feel slightly less mad now (just).
David Holroyd
26 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:26:04
I will not be buying any merchandise with that crap design. Lets hope they learn, but I doubt it.
John Gee
27 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:26:20
Paul (703), to be fair Elstone has encouraged dialogue...

Elstone: 'would you like to buy a shirt with the new badge?'

22,000 Fans: 'stick the fucking badge up your arse.'

Brent Stephens
29 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:25:09
"It has been a full-on weekend for many Evertonians and undeniably you have spoken to us loudly and clearly. We have listened".

We've listened! Couldn't write it.

"We regret we didn't ask every Evertonian about something that matters so much to every one of you".

Didn't have to be every one but at least using forum's season ticket holders etc.

"It is also clear that whilst the Fans' Forum is an excellent and effective group of representative fans".

No way representative!

Etc etc. I can't be arsed to cut and paste other tripe in this statement from them. Read the full thing.

Louis Huglin
30 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:29:51
Good on the club for dealing with this within 72 hours – and with a sensible solution. I look forward to getting involved with the process of selecting a great new club crest for 2014-15 and can live with this for one year, if that's all it is.
Huge thanks and congratulations to all Evertonians, all fansites and in particular the gents behind the petition and the @NoToEFCNewBadge twitter account. We have made our voices heard and showed just how powerful the fans can be. Job well done.

Now back to more important matters... IMWT

Andy Walker
32 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:23:06
Get your orders in early for the one off badge design on next season's merchandise. It'll be a collectors item in years to come.
Kristian Boyce
33 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:26:20
Now I'm waiting to see how the club are going to play it up to the media "we are the 'People's Club' and we listen to our fans...... blah blah blah".

If you only listened to the fans in the first place, we wouldn't be in this situation that we are now.

Peter Foy
34 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:19:39
I don't believe a word they say. Why should I?

They should realise that it has got fuck all to do with the crest. It has everything to do with how they have been treating fans with utter contempt for the past 10 years. The reason that they have come out and admitted their error is because they know full well that it was going to escalate into an all out 'Sack the Board' campaign. This is all about damage limitation. I just hope that they have taken it too far this time.

Of all the fuck ups over the years, it took the changing of the badge to finally get the appropriate reaction. I believe that some of Bill's most avid fans are finally taking this opportunity to turn against him, especially as they could never admit to being wrong over Kirby.

This was simply the last straw.

Phil Friedman
35 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:30:05
Let's have BK move on to what's really important--picking a manager as good as the club and fans deserve.
Brent Stephens
36 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:33:35
This new panel he's talking about, to make the decision on the new crest, is really going to be interesting!
Peter Foy
37 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:34:28
Just a thought.

What happens if Bill sells the club? Will it be another condition of the sale to get rid of the shite badge? He promised the fans.

Clive Mitchell
38 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:31:06
Yet again Everton supporters on here show they've more sense than the people who run the club. They won't sell much with this abomination on it in 2013-14. And who trusts them to scrap it after one season? Not good enough. Scrap it now, as a looming commercial disaster, an abomination on every player's chest for a whole season, and reinstate the old badge, ask fans to support the club by buying the properly badged merchandise as much as they can, and go through with the consultation process on a new badge as they've described - options to include the badge we had this season. We need another petition...
Andrew Laird
39 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:37:08
I think it is marketing genius on behalf of a football club, all the worldwide and national exposure without a penny spent and the word 'everton' on a child's fridge painting splashed everywhere. Now if Everton could do something GOOD and recieve the same exposure....
Gareth Morgan
40 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:32:58
The club will take a massive financial hit because of all this.
All the design bollocks wouldn't have been cheap and Everton 1 and 2 will be brimming with gash gear that nobody in their right mind will buy and the stadium will be expensively decorated with the ill-fated crest.
The whole episode has been an unmitigated disaster that could have been easily avoided by the clubs marketing department actually keeping to their premise of consulting the fans.

Jeremy Benson
41 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:38:31
So we have it for a season. No doubt the fuss will have died down next season...will there really be change?

Personally I'd have preferred they got it sorted out and stopped now, not kicked it into the long grass.

Andy Whittingham
42 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:43:19
So we have an 'interim crest' then..
Paul Andrews
43 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:45:36
John Gee,

Thats my kind of dialogue.

Richard Reeves
44 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:25:10
Basically they've made one monumental screw-up and are apologising to get the heat off themselves as they weren't expecting the response they're getting, which says a lot about the greatest Everton fan Kenwright, who Elstone had conveniently said had wanted them to target the whole Everton fan base... yeh, of course he did.

So now they're telling us this badge will be here for a year and then we'll have another new one the following year in which we can be part of the design? Are these people for real?

Phil Bellis
45 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:39:04
Brent
They'll probably employ more kopite administrators to select the panel

Peter, how true...an allegedly "insignificant" thing compared to Kings Dock, Kirkby etc united us all (well, apart from the usual ""get-over-its")

It's been the internet equivalent of cushions raining onto the pitch: I shall enjoy a pint or two tonight and toast my fellow-Blues in thanks - but let's not take our eye off the EFC hierarchy

Every step you take...

Peter Foy
46 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:43:12
In light of the clubs' admission to making a massive error, is there any point continuing with the rebranding of everything?

If they are sincere in what they say about changing it again next season, why waste money that we don't have rebranding the stadium for instance. If the kits are already manufactured, fair enough.

If they continue to spend money unnecesarily on this load of crap then they are simply telling us a pack of lies AGAIN, and they have absolutely no intention whatsoever of rectifying their mistake.

Colin Leary
48 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:52:22
It sounds mad but my kids love the new crest..they said its like pro evo..maybe its been designed to appeal to the kids and make the blues appealing to the xbox, ps3 generation.
Anthony Manning
49 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:25:54
The club say the order for the club merchandise is already underway so therefore we`re stuck with that piece of shite for at least a season, so why don't they put the proper crest on the playing shirts, its easily done and wont affect the merchandise order. Plus a complete boycott of anything that has the playschool design on to make sure nothing like this ever happens again! N.S.N.O
Mike Green
50 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:56:33
Credit to the club for seeing sense on this but another example of disastrous decision making and leadership:

Did not consult the fans and have essentially sprung this on them.

Lied that they had had extensive consultation.

Have now backtracked and admitted that they didn’t.

I believe the club essentially thought that this decision was either too big to involve us or would or be too difficult to manage if they did / would not get what they wanted if they did, so they tried to sneak it in through the back door like we wouldn’t notice!

Either way I genuinely think we’ve been treated with contempt and the reaction has given them a bit of a shock

“Jesus Christ, seems like those fans have got an opinion after all….!”

The old emblem should be reinstated as of now - if that means that it costs the club in terms of merchandise then so be it – these are the consequences of bad decision making and bad management and in future will make them think twice about who, ultimately, supports and buys their “brand”.

Keep an eye on what develops – I still think they’re banking on us getting used to it and it staying put, or if not will roll out a dutch auction of four different crests to be voted on by the fans – a shit one, a really shit one, one you wouldn’t vote for in a million years….. and the one they wanted all along.

But, hey, maybe I’m just a bit cynical. Either way, a complete cock up - at least they’ve recognised that instead of digging their heels in.

Phil Walling
51 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:55:40
The answer`s simple -if you don`t like the badge don`t buy anything on which it appears!
Frankly,the whole dispute bores the arse off me and many others I suspect!
Richard Reeves
52 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:47:17
I suppose if the club are aware of people not going to buy merchandise with this effort on it, then they would have to admit they've made a mistake but who's to say that they won't change it the following year if the topic has calmed down and a lot of this shit has been bought?

This is classic PR from Goodison in order for us to continue buying so that they don't loose money but I think they'll have no option but to change sooner if the sales aren't there... Money talks!!!

Mark Stevens
53 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:41:06
The continuing justification for the mess amazes me. Hopefully the petition has set a precedent of consulting the fans over any major identity changes in the future. It's a fact of putting up rather than shutting up though and I'm sure merchandise sales will still be affected. Just what the club needs, eh? Less money?

The EFC thinktank that commissioned the crap in the first place ought to be emptied out and refilled with fans who care!

Eugene Ruane
54 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:57:04
Andy Whittingham - "So we have an 'interim crest' then.."

Cap doffed.

Colin Leary
55 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:59:16
Think about it..we could have a new manager who is 39 who tries to get his team to play with flair..new modern crest and is appealing to up and coming kids..what did we win with Moyes and the crests over the last eleven years..nothing. We need to move on to the next era for Everton.
Patrick Murphy
56 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:56:23
If the club are sincere about a redesign for the 2014-15 how about the shareholders or some such body implore them to make the deadline prior to the start of next season's early bird date at least in that way they will have to do more than pay lip-service and be totally committed to altering the new crest. 2014-15 is also a significant milestone because it will be the centenary of Everton's second title but the 1st to be won whilst playing at Goodison Park, the first title having been won in 1891 playing at Anfield.


Andrew Presly
57 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:58:25
The one positive of the Kitbag distribution deal is that I believe we get the same annual sum from them irrespective of shirt / merchandise sales?

They'll be pissed off when next season's income is about 10p but we should still receive the same amount as if we'd sold a billion tops? What makes the deal so stupid should help us in this (ludicrous) case. I'd check the small print if I was Kitbag but in short, who cares about them?!

This is just another sad and pathetic episode of the Kenwright era when all's said and done.

Timothy Blanshard
58 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:55:27
Well most tuned in fans my family and I will be buying fuck all with that on it and HOW DARE THEY assume and print a shitload of kits without consulting us?

The other thing that has really pissed me off is, I have been a contributing forum member to the echo website for easy over four years, and they change how people can comment ie, Facebook only! and say it's easier?

I am a computer engineer and a wise blue, I don't want, need, or use Facebook because I think it infringes on our privacy. Oh and guess what: you can see the tumbleweed pass by that site now, if they didn't change it there would be HUNDREDS maybe even thousands of blues unhappy with the new very very shit attempt at a badge.... Coincidence? — doubtful.

Trevor Thompson
59 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:51:54
We mustn't stop there. We should boycott the merchandise just so they know that we're serious.
Michael Kenrick
60 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:02:58
Mike (#752), you could also list the astounding secrecy and requirement for officious Non-Disclosure Agreements surrounding the new design, and the reaction when it was leaked — including ridiculous talk of legal action.

Now it turns out what they needed was "transparency"!!!! Their arrogant incompetence knows no limits.

Brin Williams
61 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:05:47
As a limited edition these badges should become collectors' items.

I wonder if the club will cash in?

Mark Davies
62 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:05:07
Guarantee there'll be some who cut the badge off an old shirt to stick it on top of the "interim" crest.

Plenty of clubs do polls on future club crests. Let's hope they manage such a poll better next year.

To echo the sentiments made above, a boycott of merchandise with the "interim" crest on will be a message loud and clear to Nike/Kitbag etc. They will be the ones who will ultimately force the board to rethink this whole issue.

Anthony Manning
63 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:06:56
Phil if it bores the arse off you then what are you doing posting on this thread, go and talk about Martinez or something!
David Clark
64 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:57:30
Well done all who were bothered to write, email, text, tweet. I guess this is as good an outcome as we could have imagined.

A one year limited edition, collectors item (ha - no-one's arsed to collect).

They'll be stuck with loads of tat to sell off at a low price at Xmas & the end of the season. I can see it not being used on Xmas stuff if commercial deals aren't already in place.

What's the bet that the crest is printed onto this seasons shirts rathe than embroidered like the traditional badge? This (in the interest of modernisation and all the other good buzzwords bandied about on the OS, of course) will make the manufacturing process cheaper and hence the club more revenue from sales. If the shirts sell.............. Funny how it''s backfired.

Think I'll wait until the buy one get one free offer comes out next March if I buy one at all.

Colin Leary
65 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:09:16
I think we should see how it looks on the new kit before we all react..who knows..it might look good and modern. We moan about goodison looking old and out of date..maybe the kit will give us a modern image at least.
James Stewart
66 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:48:54
Agree with Michael it's a half arsed apology. They are hoping its all forgotten in a years time. Vote with your wallet and don't buy anything with that crap on it
Dan Brierley
67 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:00:05
Very glad to see common sense prevail, and the club do a U-Turn on what was quite clearly an issue that they got completely fucking wrong. Although I do admit I will be buying a fair few items with this badge, as it's going to be one of the rarest pieces of memorabilia in years to come! Every cloud...
Phil Bellis
68 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:16:30
Colin Leary (775)

Give it up man

Do you know football teams that play in red tend to win more often? Well. how's about making that change, then, you old change fanatic?

Mike Green
69 Posted 28/05/2013 at 18:57:12
Michael #770 – the really frustrating thing is the club could’ve made a real thing of it.

The fanbase aren’t stupid. If they’d come out an explained that the badge needed changing, and simplifying, for commercial reasons I’m pretty sure we would’ve all listened.

I for one think the crest could probably do with a bit of a rethink / brush up. I don’t necessarily see the need for the word “Everton” on the crest and that the scroll design for the motto could be updated - that would simplify it for starters. If I was shown some common sense evidence explaining the changes then maybe I’d be talked round. The same goes for the wreaths, the motto, the shape of the tower etc. I think the mistake they made was it wasn’t simply tweaking the crest, it was changing it dramatically and this was always going to cause a dramatic reaction if not handled carefully.

Done properly they could have got us excited and involved in helping improve and shape the identity of the club though, it could’ve been great. Instead they’ve made us feel excluded, angry and resentful about it.

Colin Leary
70 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:19:22
We have one of the best youth policies..why not move ahead..no one speaks latin anymore. 1878 says it all..its clear and simple.
Sharon Larkin
71 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:21:27
Just watched sky sports news and that awful badge looked so tacky and chidlike in the background on the store window. The difference when sky went back to our current crest which just looked so classy in comparison.
Eugene Ruane
72 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:24:01
Colin Leary - "We have one of the best youth policies..why not move ahead..no one speaks latin anymore. 1878 says it all..its clear and simple"

No one speaks Latin anymore?

That is fucking GENIUS!!!

Oh wait...No one lives in 1878 anymore.

D'OH!!!

Kevin Day
73 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:21:18
Still can't see many people buying anything with this logo, so what's the point if rolling out, I buy a new top, trackies for lazing round the house every year, I certainly won't be buying anything with the new crest, not out of protest, out of embarrassment.
Andrew Bulmer
74 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:04:23
It's a start but only that..At the moment we still get that LFC inspired joke for a year..these people seem simply unable to do anything right, never mind brave.
It was a horrible error ..errors in business do cost money (luckily only money and embarrassment here). Robert Elstone comes across as a weak and incompetent individual in every missive he produces. Genuinely just a bit dumb.

Spend the money, fix it now..fix it properly.

As I mentioned on the other thread the core issue here is the type of people who make these errors in the first place don't do it just once..I don't expect them to announce sackings/termination of contracts..but not one thing in this process was done even in a barely satisfactory way..we saw the output.

They should not be allowed to just whitewash over this with frightened platitudes. 1) withdraw it 2) create a proper one 3) review how the hell it happened. All the above should be managed by someone above and independent of the original process with the power to change things.

Sharon Larkin
75 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:30:06
I bet people will purchase now thinking it's a collectors item and then BK will say so much sold we're keeping as obviously fans love!!!!
Andy Riley
76 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:22:14
This is what happens when you only "consult" with people who you know will already agree with you and is symtomatic of the decision to abandon AGMs because those in charge cannot stand any meaningful scrutiny. For this "apology" to mean anything and be viewed as sincere the paid employees of the club responsible for their interpreation of the original "consultation" must resign immediately or be summarily dismissed by the board for gross incompetence. That could be the start of a process for the board to begin rebuilding relationships with the fans and a whole new era with a new manager and potentially a fresh start for BK who I think does generally think like a supporter because it can't be doubted that for all his possible faults he is one.
Peter Foy
77 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:16:02
Anthony (765)

I wouldn't bet on it mate. I can't help but thinking that none of the Everton staff have read the small print in the Kitbag Deal.

There is no way Kitbag will lose anything. Any losses will come out of our massive £3m share. The £3m will be our Maximum income depending on sales.

This is just my opinion of course. An opinion based on other incompetent practises of the current board.

Dennis Stevens
78 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:27:19
Of course, this all can only mean that we will now proceed to win the League Cup, the FA Cup & the League this season & this shoddy badge will be our 'lucky' badge & all the tat featuring it will become instantly collectable!
Andy Crooks
79 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:30:43
Will the new "interim" crest become a collectors item?
Mick Fleming
80 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:12:45
I can just imagine BK on the phone this morning, "Robert, just issue a half arsed apology and say we will review it next year or something. Just carry on as normal but say we will start a fans consultation process around season ticket renewal time, peoples club and all that. Most of the dickheads who don't like the new crest will accept that, fuck the rest of them as they don't matter. Divide and conquer Robert divide and conquer".

We've been treated like shit again. If BK came up on a big screen in front of us yesterday most would have booed, if he came up on a big screen now most would probably clap again.

Tim Welsh
81 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:18:54
I am a firm believer in the philosophy that it takes a big man to say ' I'm sorry' or 'I am wrong' and I would like to think that this shows the club in good light following some potentially catastrophic PR.
Unfortunately, we stuck with this stupid design for a year. It would be ironic if we were to win our first trophy in nineteen years with it emblazoned on our left breast.
Remember 84-85. One of our worst ever kits, but it saw us through a league title.
I have experienced this sort of thing in music. Terrible designers with no feeling for the artist's work are saddled with the task of a reissue, which is met with universal opprobrium, and it is only put right when the fans get involved. Nevertheless, Everton are bigger and more durable than bands, but the idea of a competition for the design of the future badge would involve those who really care, both with designs and with selection.
Eugene Ruane
82 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:33:10
Dennis, if that happens, I'll get it tattooed on my nut-sack - promise!
Timothy Blanshard
85 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:30:56
They have no choice but to try and make us live with this for a season WITHOUT asking us in advance, but say they did ask us? WTF
I don't care if one day this rare abomination of a kit badge will be collectable?
By who, stevie wonder?

No real Evertonian is going to buy this to sell on ebay in years to come, I still wouldnt buy it if it was FREE.

I am pleased it is going to get binned though.

And if you know your history it's enough to make ......a better design.

Andy Crooks
86 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:39:50
Tim, what type of man does it take to say"I'm an utterly incompetent arsehole and I'm going to do the right thing and fuck of for good."
Clive Lewis
87 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:41:26
I don't want to sound depressing about this but does that suggest we will get screwed twice?. Thats if you buy a shirt this year?
Denis Richardson
89 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:42:22
Glad they saw sense in the end although I'm a bit surprised they cannot sort out the 2013-2014 merchandise simply using the old badge. the new season doesn't kick off for another 3 months, how long does it really take to get stuff produced and shipped out?

I certainly wont be buying anything with the new badge.

Steve Higham
90 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:35:16
A partial climb down by the club but doesnt it show that we are being run by a bunch of clowns. Surely now no one can support this board and its acolytes.
It just shows that if we stand together and raise our voices we will be heard.
Well done to all our supporters who signed the petition and voiced there anger to the club,and to the others who did nothing shame on you all.
Eugene Ruane
91 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:46:20
Clive - "I don't want to sound depressing about this but does that suggest we will get screwed twice?. Thats if you buy a shirt this year?"

Anyone buying it deserves to be screwed imo (and not in the good way)

Mark Riordan
94 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:36:44
This has been rumbling for weeks and EFC only did anything about it today after it was picked up by every national media outlet this morning and they had no choice; so much for the humble apology. Smacks of the same "screw you" attitude we had to face over Kirkby – only the national media and the Liverpool Echo didn't give a toss on that one.
Tommy Meehan
95 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:51:16
You mean "screwed" in an Oz kind of way, Eugene?
Anthony Jaras
96 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:27:45
Hopefully, the choices of which badge to pick includes the current one residing on our kit - so we can all just pick that one.

If it ain't broke......

Timothy Blanshard
97 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:44:56
Andy C

I dunno mate but I am waiting for that day when he fucks off to the pigs pen, I don't profess to have all the answers because I don't know much about big buisness or how it works, but I m a blue to the core and I can spot a snide from a mile off.
BK must have known about this from start to finish and did he really think we would say WOW great clipart there bill, send me 100 shirts?
they're so out of touch it's unreal, I live in France and still know the pulse of my club more than the blue bill and the, suits! shocking stuff.

Adolf Ng
98 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:52:12
OK, as it stands, I boycott buying any merchandise for one single 2013-14 season...
Paul Ramsey
100 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:39:37
The message is welcome, but worrying. Only the first few sentences offer apologies and the last few offer a consultation (with no specifications). The whole middle of the message is a justification of a shameful decision.

How many millions of pounds will be lost to this idiocy? Names should be named. Who initiated the process? Who supervised it? And who agreed to it? Once identified, the guilty parties should be let go. This is not just a silly decision, it is a financial ruin. Evertonians, email, demand names.

Any future design is straightforward. Our crest needs to incorporate, and nothing more, the distinctive badge shape, the laurel wreaths, our latin motto Nil Satis Nisi Optimum and the original design of Prince Rupert's Tower. We would accept almost any design as long as it maintained these elements.

It would be best if people resisted buying any merchandise. The logic of keeping the crest for a season doesn't make sense. They will lose more money keeping it for a year than they would by ditching it now.

I see no reason why the new crest should remain on the Everton website either, or in the ground, or anywhere, but on the kits.

Colin Leary
101 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:50:59
I reckon we will have a great season..Moyes will last twelve months and will be begging for his old job back. COYB Boys..
Chris Matheson
102 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:51:24
A few random thoughts...

1 - This could have been avoided if there was not a siege mentality at the club. But they cancel AGMs, refuse to meet democratically elected shareholders' reps, and want to pick and choose "fans forum" members. The gulf between board and supporters is now a problem.

2 - I would not be surprised if they are kind of hoping that the fuss will die down and that everyone willhave forgotten about it by this time next year.

3 - Merchandising boycotts would be fine, but because of the dreadful Kitbag exclusivity deal, we are forced to boycott Everton merchandise anyway because you can't find it in any shops to buy.

4 - The new badge is awful but for me this episode is more about the hopeless management style and ability of the Board than the design of the crest.

Mick Fleming
103 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:49:55
Don't you just feel like they've divided us again and the whole issue will just fizzle out into nothing? Come on blues whats changed and do you really believe these lying incompetent sods based on history? We've gone from an angry mob to a purring cat overnight.
Colin Leary
104 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:57:58
Anyone got any better ideas for a badge..post them.
Mick Fleming
105 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:01:57
Colin already been done on another thread mate
Peter Truin
106 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:57:56
No credit to the club over this, they've done fuck all but acknowledge people are up in arms about it.

And it says supporters clubs, the fans forum and Everton in the Community will be involved in consultation over the new crest next summer. The fucking same people who had a say over this mess.

Let's get it stopped before it can be used on the coming seasons shirts and around the ground and in the media.

Mark Frere
107 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:00:55
What about a picture of the TITANIC sinking Colin? Would be quite fitting considering Martinez is going to be our next manager...... only joking, I will still get right behind him
Richard Reeves
108 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:49:23
Colin Leary (#775), You don't need to see what it will look like on the kit to know whether it would look good... not unless you don't mind the badge itself. I've seen it photo-imposed on our current kit in that embarrassing promotional video where the players were probably nudged to show their approval with Fellaini in particular not looking arsed about it. If it was a fair representation of how it might look, then they've got the badge far too big. No-one wants their eyes drawn to something so amateurish and cheap-looking.
Colin Leary
109 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:02:33
I hate Everton getting slagged off..we are a family club and not like Manure..get behind the club. Kenwright might really be a good trusting guy and not a dirty red tyrant like the shite and red devil shite..no wonder when ex players talk about everton they wont have a bad wird against us..The Gentlemans Club..not back stabbers.
Phil Martin
110 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:08:35
Remember folks...abstaining from purchasing any merchandise does NOT impact EFC. The shite deal they agreed with Kitbag means we'll get £3M whatever. For this year at least that may work in our favour.
Mick Fleming
111 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:09:04
Colin have you been drinking mate?
Colin Leary
112 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:10:38
No wonder Kenwright give Moyes no money in the last window..with Moyes brother hanging around finch farm Kenwright wasnt blagged..cloak and dagger brothers..MAN UTD deal was done and dusted.
Mark Frere
113 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:13:12
He ought to have a drink Mick, at least he might lighten up a little
Colin Leary
114 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:15:52
That crest wont turn me to drink...haha its not that bad.
Drew Shortis
115 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:01:17
Glad they have seen sense. Its shocking they didn't do it properly in the first place though! I have seen some excellent designs by fans online, so next time I suggest they get a selection of the best of these together and have a vote on the club website to let the fans decide which one we want.

I can appreciate that the people 'running' the club need to make Everton into a brand and they need a strategy if we are going to compete in today's footballing world. We have to evolve to survive, but it needs to be done the right way, not just by fait accompli.

Personally I think the old badge had some flaws. The faded blue in the centre looked awful and I understand the logic of simplifying some elements, such as the removal of the motto, and containing all the elements within the badge. It just needs to be a better design!

I hope this is the end of the matter now and we have a great season under the new manager and play in Europe the season after next with a classy new badge that the majority of fans approve of.

John Ford
116 Posted 28/05/2013 at 19:53:47
What a simple and wonderful opportunity this should have been. A new crest to be revealed along with our new manager. It was a PR dream. Get the fans to pick it. Have a big unveiling, loads of fans at GP, canapés, Stella, cheese and pineapple. Loads of smiling kids in the new kit. Dunc gets a new tat.

Elstone is an incompetent dick. Even his apology makes you want to piss on his shoes.

Kevin Hudson
117 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:21:21
This is excellent news. Let's hope they re-do it properly next seaśon.
Colin Leary
118 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:20:10
If I owned a business the size of Everton..there would be no way I would let the customers do my business plan..Steve Jobs didnt get the Apple logo designed by some nerd!
Peter Warren
120 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:22:38
I thought that the club have responded extremely well. Apology accepted.
John Gee
121 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:10:26
Colin, you didn't happen to stand in the boys pen a few years back did you?

Surely, Kitbag have signed a deal to supply our kit. If the expected supply is inadequate (and it seems it is) why can't we renegotiate? There must be something in contract law about poor performance? Could the club announce a meeting with Kitbag and publicise their negotiating point thereby either forcing Kitbag closer to our interests or significantly denting their future earning potential by effectively warning other clubs about them?

Phil Sammon
122 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:17:22
Well done to everyone who contributed.

One thing I will say is that there is definitely something strange about the guy on Twitter - @NoToNewEFCBadge.

He tweeted a message yesterday about journalists from The Times that had nothing to do with this campaign. There's definitely a hidden agenda and he won't want to lose all the followers he's gathered.

Mark Wayman
123 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:10:15
So, we only have to put up using Everton Knowsley's badge for a year. I won't be buying any merchandise this season, and hope that for once the club can keep a promise and change it next season.
Paul Dark
124 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:23:23
Whatever happens, the motto MUST stay. I really hope all Evertonians understand the importance of this.
Mike Green
125 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:23:56
Spot on John Ford

Colin #865 - seeing as Bill opted for your favoured approach, how do you think he feels it all went today?

Carl Sanderson
126 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:30:08
Colin 865:

Er, ever heard of market research?

Graham Mockford
127 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:22:18
Eugene #668

Nailed it. I would just have loved to be a fly on the conference call between Nike, Kitbag and Elstone.
Elstone " I just don't understand it. We've been treating the fans like fucking idiots for years. This has never happened before"
Nike " can't you get you PR team to go on the offensive and create a hearts and minds campaign around the new badge"

......... Long silence ensues.

What is interesting for me about all this is not the new badge, I don't give a shit to be honest but I understand those that do. It is more a protest about the administration of this club. The truth is that the only way to get a reaction is to hit where it hurts.... In the pocket.

Jeremy Benson
128 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:21:29
Will the interim badge complain all season about its impending replacement?

And more importantly, will it buy a house on merseyside afterwards and constantly be used for soundbites in interviews every time the everton strip is mentioned?

Carl Sanderson
129 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:35:29
Jeremy 882:

Nice one! You are Nikolai Gogol and I claim my five pounds. 😃

James Martin
130 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:38:28
I'll believe this when I see it. What's likely to happen is that the club will just invent some erroneous sales figures that osmehow justify the new crest and makeout that the fans have warmed to it over the year and they're therefore keeping it. All this does is take the initial heat out of the reaction. I would be very surprised if there is a new crest come next season and absolutely shocked if us fans actually had osmething to do with how it looked.
Phil Bellis
131 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:36:14
Colin
"If I owned a business the size of Everton..there would be no way I would let the customers do my business plan"

Better that than no fuckin plan at all

Paul Gladwell
132 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:40:00
Would love to have seen sunned boys wince when he checked his emails today, I sent him six myself, he's out if his depth, they are costing us millions with their annual pre season fuck up and dickheads tell us " it's not Bills fault no one wants to put money into a football club" if this daft fucker learnt proper basic business skills maybe we could afford some blue gravel for Goodison that we used to see each first home game, sell up and fuck off you dopes.
Ken Buckley
133 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:10:31
After reading the 'Apology' I cant help thinking that the chairman and board employ people to carry out the work of running the club on there behalf.
Unfortunately they seem to have employed the wrong people.
Ross Edwards
134 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:50:08
Well, they apologised because the board were left crestfallen by the response to the badge... I'll get me coat!
Paul Gladwell
135 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:49:22
It's simple now, Crystal Palace have a cracking new badge picked from six, voted by the fan base, the club need to do this starting now and let those with customer numbers have one vote on the clubs website, it's not bloody hard really.
Ross Edwards
136 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:55:17
You've got to remember who's in charge here Paul. If Kenwright can cock up a badge, he's cocked up a stadium, he's bound to cock up with the manager as well.
He's just a complete prat. I don't trust him with anything. This apology is pathetic, it is not genuine one bit. They've only released it to regain some credibility and to shut us up.
Mick Fleming
137 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:58:58
Ross judging by reactions to the half arsed apology it seems to have worked. God help us.
Drew Shortis
138 Posted 28/05/2013 at 20:53:46
Paul Dark #873
I disagree about the motto. The removal of the motto is not the universal gripe, though I can see why many object. Nil Satis will always be out motto, regardless if it is on the badge or not. I happen to agree with the thought behind modernising the badge and bringing the key elements inside the shield. By and large the overriding objection is the amateurish look of the badge chosen and the way it was forced upon us. We have to adapt to stay competitive, but it has to be done the right way.
Brian Alexander
139 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:05:33
Pathetic apology, bin it now, please lads do not buy a single item with that abomination on it, the club is run by inept imbeciles, I will never buy another thing until OUR BADGE is reinstated, shocking performance which made me consider keeping my season ticket.
Ian Bennett
140 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:05:26
Could be sheer genius. I suspect that the sales this year and next year combined, would be more than without badge gate. They have then spun it around and apologised, as the listening people's club at a time to take away the heat on Agms etc. Genius. Have the angry masses just been played?
Roberto Birquet
141 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:08:36
I think I just about echo the words of Drew913.
I actuaalt don't lik,e the recent badge. It's too busy, but the new one's pregnant lower half does not fit the traditional shield, and just looks odd.

The idea of just incorporating some elements is a sound one. As for the nil satis...did it appear in the mid-80s when we really lived up to it? I don't think it did. That was far more minimialist, and worked.

Roberto Birquet
142 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:12:52
Philip Little
675
Barca fans built a pyre of the club's new jerseys a few years ago in central Barcelona and lit it. The jerseys went up in smoke as did - metaphorically - all merchandise. the club recalled all jerseys.

The offence? The new Nike shirts had a white (Madrid) swoosh. The subsequent jerseys were given a yellow swoosh, which remains. Loved that story.

However, I am not advocating anything similar and hope I haven't sowed any seeds of club merch destruction.!!

Paul Gladwell
143 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:14:23
Roberto, it was not on the kit but it was everywhere else, I recently dug out my old season tickets from the enclosure and in gold it's there, that badge has been the official club badge for donkeys years, even when it was not on the kit, I have dug out all my memorabilia as I'm writing a book on supporting Everton at a certain period, mainly for my son and friends to read when he grows up and everything has our badge on it, it's not something new like some people wrongly claim.
Brian Waring
144 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:14:54
BK "Fucking hell Robbie, I knew there would be some dissenting voices over this new badge, wasn't expecting the shit to hit the fan though"

Elstone "Fuck them Bill, we'll just put out a statement with a blag apology and some bullshit about changing it after next season, this lot are as gullible as fuck, they'll swallow it"

Paul Andrews
145 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:15:45
See what happens when 20,000 show nthey are+9999999-----``+1
Paul Andrews
146 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:15:45
See what happens when 20,000 show nthey are+9999999-----``+1
Paul Andrews
147 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:15:45
See what happens when 20,000 show nthey are+9999999-----``+1
Paul Andrews
148 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:15:45
See what happens when 20,000 show nthey are+9999999-----``+1
Mike Green
149 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:19:04
Paul 901 - have just checked out the new Palace badge, pretty good eh? One issue I might have is the other five possibilities we're gash so thank God that one was in there, probably won my default!
Mike Green
150 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:25:49
Paul Andrews - did you sign the petition more than once........? Come on, tell the truth...... :)
Paul Andrews
151 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:23:10
Shows what happens when 20,000 plus show they are not happy.
Makes you realise what can be done about the other crap we are asked to swallow by this board on a regular basis.
Phil Bellis
152 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:21:22
Paul Gladwell

Dead right

The Tower, laurel wreaths and Latin motto have been the club crest since the late 30s

What's been on or, for most of our existence, not been on the player's shirts is a separate history

Looks like I'm going to have to ferret about in the loft to check out all my old Charles Buchan's Football Monthlies, Topical Times Football Annuals and my shoeboxes of old programmes

Paul Andrews
153 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:27:51
Mike,
did you sign it even once?,even once ? even once ?
David Greenwood
154 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:28:55
Mike, very quick, like it!
Mike Green
155 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:29:30
Yes I did Paul, but just the once. :)
Paul Andrews
156 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:30:28
Good lad,good lad ,etc :)
Paul Gladwell
157 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:29:38
Phil, I've spent the last two months doing that too.
Brent Stephens
158 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:34:10
Petition just gone over 23,000 - Paul, give it a rest, lad! Or I'll get the triads onto you!
Paul Gladwell
159 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:32:02
Never forgave my mum for throwing a 60s rug with two Alan Balls kicking into the badge, pure Everton gold dust , she threw it in the washing machine in the 80s, it came out in shreds,it was the real badge too
Brent Stephens
160 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:38:53
Bet Bill buys thousands of stuff with the new crest on and hides it under operating costs. Then he can say "look how popular it is".

Declan Burke
161 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:45:52
Spot on Brian #929. They are not going to change that shitty crest now or next year. They are presuming that we will forget all this crap and probably dish worse shit next season. Why? They know that most people will buy any rubbish relating to Everton.
The only way to sort this, is to boycott any product bearing the crest
Carl Hughes
162 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:09:49
All the fans like me, who have had a tattoo done, will walk down the street a laughing stock.
Steve Jones
163 Posted 28/05/2013 at 21:52:58
Did other clubs consult their fans when they modernised their badges ie Arsenal, Palace etc? I work for a large company who merged and came up with a new corporate identity and logo, and lots of others do it regularly.
I have never known them to ask permission or consult with customers to design and "approve" a new logo, a few focus groups yes, but thats about it .
To be honest, why should Everton be any different?
I am a shareholder and wasn't consulted, I don't feel I own any part of the club and didnt expect to be asked, so wasn't surprised. I did sign the petition though.
Maybe that's the problem, we don't own anything and in the real world, are treated as such.
Mike Green
164 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:16:15
Steve #975 - had I been an Arsenal fan I would've gone spare about their redesigned badge, it's an absolute shocker.

Football fans are different to 'customers' of other "products" because it is far more difficult for us to walk away to a competitor. Hence, if we dislike what's happening to the "product" we can only complain, more so than with many other things, which is what you are seeing now.

Brian Waring
165 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:21:07
Steve, I think Everton should be different because as fans we love the club, so are much more emotionally involved (even though you will tell me that I'm still just a customer), a Tesco customer say, could just go and shop at another supermarket chain if they weren't happy.
Lewis Barclay
166 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:27:07
I really don't like the new "logo".
However, I can understand some of the thinking that has probably gone into the new design.
It translates well across locales, needing very little, if any change. The detail is minimal and probably easy to reproduce across mediums and its a bold if "dumbed down" design that is easily identifiable.

The identity of the club needs to strongly represent the club and this design probably works for some markets that Everton need to get bigger in, the USA and Asia for example.

Personally, although I really dislike how "dumb" this design looks, if it meant revenues increased by a few million a year, I'd happily put up with it for a good few years.

Eugene Ruane
167 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:22:02
Steve Jones - I know less about business than anyone.

(to use a business term, I know fuck-all).

But I DO know that if 91% of your customers told you "It's shite and we won't buy it", to ignore this and continue anyway would be stupidity on a grand scale (no matter what anyone else does).

And stupidity is what this was.

Brian Waring
168 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:31:18
Lewis, before we can get bigger in the USA and Asia, we actually need to get people into the club with some business acumen who could do it.
Brian Waring
169 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:31:18
Lewis, before we can get bigger in the USA and Asia, we actually need to get people into the club with some business acumen who could do it.
Richard Harris
170 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:30:08
Everton will be a global brand either when we are successful on the pitch, sign world class brand name players, employ people who can negotiate high value sponsorship deals. A re-designed digital friendly logo will not suddenly make us a high value brand !
Dave Southword
171 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:30:39
The club listened, so credit for that. It's a shame they didn't pick up on this when the trademark was applied for and leaked onto the internet a couple of months ago.

Prince Rupert's Tower is in more accurate proportion on the new badge though!

Steve Jones
172 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:45:12
Mike, Brian and Eugene, agree totally, we are actually not just "customers" shopping at Tesco, we are emotionally engaged with the club, thats why the reaction to the badge.
That's also exactly why the board and the CEO have taken this liberty, they don't need to ask us, so haven't bothered to. They know we will still buy the merchandise for our kids, for ourselves, no matter what we say in the heat of the moment , they can rely on our loyalty.
Who is really going o boycott games with a new manager, playing style and players? Who will refuse their son or daughter a new shirt with the name of a new number 9 on the back, crap badge or not? It's probably a lot cheaper to print and manufacture, shirts will cost them less, profit increases, so why bother asking the fans?
Brinkmanship, calculated risk or just can't be arsed, either way they can rely on us.
Anthony Manning
173 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:54:50
Steve Jones what do you do at the large company you work for? After reading your post I bet you are just a yes man! Do you want a job at Everton!!
Kevin Hudson
174 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:56:04
Steve,

The reason Everton have to be different, is due to the emotional resonance the crest inspires amongst the support; it's cultural identity, a lifetime of belonging to a cause.

You can't reduce it to a mere corporate logo...

Alyson Leonard
175 Posted 28/05/2013 at 22:29:55
If the board are serious about changing the crest, they need to change it now, not next season. Take all the advertisements about the new badge down from Goodison and reinstate the existing badge for this coming season. NSNO.
Peter Mills
176 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:03:27
"We have listened to your concerns, we admit our mistake but have made commitments for the next 12 months, please stick with us and we will make sure we get things right next close season"
OR
" Fuck me, Robert, who the hell did this? Buy me 12 months or we are screwed"?
Mike Green
177 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:07:11
Steve #005 - you're right, we are in a position to be abused but plenty of fans have said they'll boycott the merchandise, which I certainly will, and plenty had said at the end of Moyes tenure they'd not set foot inside the ground whilst he was still at the helm.

You have to do an awful lot to completely alienate a fanbase but what usually happens then is its not the owners that make the fans walk, but the fans that make the owners walk. And I think Kenwright is starting to feel more and more uncomfortable as the dismay directed towards his tenure builds.

Steve Jones
178 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:10:48
I am actually telling you how it is in the real world Anthony, like it or not. I specialise in organisation development, change management and talent. I am also a fan, season ticket holder, shareholder and even scout for Everton.
So I think I can claim to be one of "us" and also see it as it really is from the other side.
It's great there is an apology, but they didnt really have to do anything.
Graham Mockford
179 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:08:57
Steve

But the beauty is we don't have to buy it! That's the power of the customer. You say they can rely on us, well don't count me in.
I always thought that any economic protest could be counter productive. Well maybe we should support the club but not the board. Keep turning up at Goodison in record numbers but boycott all commercial activity. No shirt sales, no car stickers, no golf club covers.
In the short term it won't affect the team but it certainly might accelerate any sale process.
The whole badge fiasco is a perfect opportunity to unite those supporters who don't want to march before a game but want this gang of opportunists out of the club. I would suggest a Black Watch protest, black and red scarves. Keep supporting the team but opposed to the board.

Steve Jones
180 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:24:43
Mike #020 I hope your right my friend
Mike Green
181 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:27:38
We'll see Steve - it just may be that Martinez performs miracles and Bill comes up smelling of roses, wouldn't surprise me but I do get the sense that Bill is getting a little jaundiced by the job now. He obviously doesn't like it 'up him' and the reaction to the changed badge design is another slap in the face, and they seem to be happening more regularly now. It might feel like a lonely place without David there any more......

Imagine new owners and a new manager, never mind a new badge.....

Mike Green
182 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:38:14
Oh, and Graham, a Black Watch Protest! Oooooooooooooooooooo.......
Ernie Baywood
183 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:33:57
So the club will be getting a fair bit of credit today for listening to fans and taking action.

Yet we still have a new crest.

Another entry into "how stuff works".

Anthony Manning
184 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:32:10
Steve, lets cut through the rubbish, after the latest fiasco do you think this board are fit to run our club?
Ed Fitzgerald
185 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:30:05
Graham

You are 100 per cent correct they are fearful of a boycott of goods and the usual amount of money I spend on kits and merchandise for my son will not happen this year. I am appalled by their arrogance and lies (let's face it it's not the first time) but more than anything is their total contempt for the match going fans is incredible. I think the announcement today and is,a shite attempt to pacify us and stop the fans getting mobilised over other issues at the club. All it took was an e-petition to activate us, no marches or gestures. I think the Black Watch idea is a good one as it will be a visual display of our contempt for the way this club is being run. I would like too see the old drama queen and elstone explain that away on sky.

Steve Jones
186 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:43:03
Graham, I take your point, but none of us want to damage the club really do we? A boycott may well do that since the shares are stagnant at the moment so the owners won't be affected. Any downturn in commercial means even less to invest in the team. They know that we know that, if you see what I mean, so are we going to jeopardise things? Doubt it , at least for 99% of fans.

Mike, maybe Bill is ready for a nice retirement, that's he only way things will change!

Graham Mockford
187 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:50:41
Steve

So lets just keep the status quo then? My quandary is that I love this club and would not want to damage the team.
We need new ownership, that may involve the risk of something worse however the lower the price the more that risk is mitigated.
This board needs to be forced to sell, the only way you do that is with a financial imperative.
A grass roots campaign of pro team / anti board could bring that about. My Black Watch is maybe a lame approach but anything that hurts the pockets of our Board will have an effect.

Derek Thomas
188 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:45:05
Colin #786 VOS vires non habet Latine loque
Patrick Murphy
189 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:49:58
Statement from Everton PR department January 2014

We have listened to the fans and observed their demonstrations at Goodison Park this season so for the 2014-15 we have asked the manufaxturer to stop production of our current shirts and incorporate the 'bee-hive' design on our Red and Black shirts with black shorts and red socks. We really do respond to our fans after all we are the people's club.


Tony Draper
190 Posted 28/05/2013 at 23:53:23
Eventually in failing relationships there comes a point where one must say "enough!".

Well I have, Mr Kenwright, had enough. Please go.

A BLATANT cockup defferred for a year ?

Is this what SIr John Moores would have deemed acceptable ?
No

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Just because that standard is too challenging for YOU doesn't mean you have the right to remove it.

Quite the reverse.

Brian Denton
191 Posted 29/05/2013 at 00:06:21
Derek (064) I think (your capitals) 'VOS non vires habetis Latine loquor' or 'TU non vires habes Latine loquor'........Loquor is a deponent verb, and plural vos takes plural form of verb, or use singular Tu with singular form of verb. At any rate in classical Latin - and being Evertonians we will use classical rather than medieval church Latin - I would say to Colin
'Non potes tu ipse Latine loquor'.

I'll get me coat...........

Huw Jenkins
192 Posted 29/05/2013 at 00:34:23
I work in branding and marketing; if I was rebranding any other product but Everton, I would agree with the moves that have been made. Look at MLS, who thought 'soccer' was for girls? Their logos are made for global promo opportunities. We are no longer in 1878 and Bill doesn't have the commercial clout we all want...

The badge is crap, but it works in the new digital world. The more money we pull in, the more money we can spend on new signings. Wake up everybody: we are not a charity, we are a business.

I have supported Everton since I was 4, my Dad is a RedShite and bought the wrong Easter Egg mug for me with a pretty shite emblem and my younger brother got the red one... He is now a toffee too!

We have to make money and by not buying merchandise we are shooting the club in the foot. If they change our kit to red and put a a liverbird on it... time to moan.

We need an new manager and an injection of players to take us forward. We challenged and failed at a top four finish, but played some good footy while doing so. We can do better; it is not what we fans think about the badge, it is what our team can do on the pitch and how we support them... COYB. Howard Kendall years where the best in my memory, but we are not there now... LET US MOVE FORWARD. NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM!

Phil Bellis
194 Posted 29/05/2013 at 01:10:48
Dave Southword (997)

"Prince Rupert's Tower is in more accurate proportion on the new badge though!"

Agreed, so is the latest album representation of Stevie Nicks; however, I still, without a doubt, prefer the older version of the lady

If she'd only have played her cards right....

Simon Hughes
195 Posted 29/05/2013 at 00:55:53
Is the badge really that awful? It contains the tower, our formation year and our club name so where's the problem? It doesn't have to have our Latin logo, we all know it and it's still plastered around the ground. If professional designers and a marketing team believe it's advantageous to simplify the badge to promote it worldwide and to a younger audience, then who am I to disagree?
Tony Draper
196 Posted 29/05/2013 at 01:56:08
Brian Denton, do not get your coat, get a beer.

Proof if proof were ever needed that EVERTONIANS not only know their history, but some of us know it in classical Latin.

And in My Dad's case Ancient Greek too.
(Me Dad went to the collegiate

On Shaw St, just down from St Ruperts Tower

And for that tenuous link I shall get My coat
(But NOT one with that horrible cartoon mockery on it)

Jason Lam
197 Posted 29/05/2013 at 05:56:57
Don't buy this collectors version you'll top up the sales volume and the buffoons will get the wrong idea.

Now I want to know how Tim Howard really thinks about this logo device.

Michael Penley
198 Posted 29/05/2013 at 06:02:00
Does anyone think that everyone will forget about this by this time next year and the statement was made in full awareness of that fact? I don't like the new crest and appreciate the apology and it's probably sincere, but somehow it's not good enough for me.
Eric Myles
199 Posted 29/05/2013 at 06:22:01
If they've changed the signage around the ground they should get down to Otterspool sharpish and get it back to put back up. You can sort of understand that they can't change merchandise already ordered (even though they should just bin it as nobody will buy it) but there's nothing to stop them getting the real crest back on the signs around the ground.

I won't even buy a knock off copy of a shirt with that awful ToonTown Logo on it and was planning to take my daughter on the Goodison Tour next month but will have second thoughts if that logo is adorning the ground.

Paul Andrews
200 Posted 29/05/2013 at 06:29:51
The official club statement tells us "The Turret" on the new badge looks better than ever.

In 50 years of being an Evertonian I have never heard it called a turret.

Makes me wonder who worded the statement? Sounds like an external PR company to me.

Karl Masters
201 Posted 29/05/2013 at 06:43:46
No reason to leave this cartoon badge on anything except merchandise or kits already manufactured.

They have nearly three months to take down all the signage put up around Goodison last week and restore the proper badge until a new acceptable one is designed.

Bet they don't do it though and I reckon its only 50/50 at best they will redesign the badge through a vote we can all contribute to. Using the word turret in the statement shows these people have not a scooby doo what they are doing.

I can't trust them anymore.

Dave Roberts
203 Posted 29/05/2013 at 08:12:18
There seems to be a split response to the new crest abomination amongst all those who objected to it. There are those who want the old one reinstated ( I include myself in that group) and others who don't mind the badge changing as long as it is acceptable and ( I assume ) matches the class of the old one.

Personally I think the old badge is probably the classiest in the premiership and if not too simplistic to say, it just looks bloody good, aesthetically pleasing and translates the meaning and ethos of the club very well. It might be a good idea to have another poll asking if supporters want reinstatement of the old badge or would be happy to see the badge 'evolve' as long as it was acceptable to at least a majority of us and retained its attachment to the ethos of the club.

Otherwise we could end up with a situation where the club only listens to fans who don't mind the crest changing and reinstatement of the old one is a non starter (which already seems to be the implication in the club statement)

We have to keep on top of this or the club will be hoping that all objections will fade away during the course of next season and they will get their way by default.

As far as I am concerned, as much as I would wish for the reinstatement of the old crest, I would be happy to go along with a new one as long as it was generally acceptable to the supporters, retained the class of the old one and wasn't a fucking joke!

Dave Roberts
204 Posted 29/05/2013 at 08:29:58
Chose the wrong word there. Replace 'split' with difference of opinion'!
Ian Hollingworth
205 Posted 29/05/2013 at 08:35:55
Ask yourself the question.. Do you trust this board and management team enough to give them a years grace on the new badge issue and then change it based on what we the fans want?

I hope the answer you have speaks volumes of what the club are trying to do here.

They know that over the year more and more people will start buying the merchandise. Time is a great healer and all that. They are betting on that in 12 months time all this fuss will have gone away. Just like potential takeovers etc have been used in the past etc.

You can bet that Nike were behind forcing the clubs hand and not the club themsleves. Media exposure and fan pressure on Nike made this change happen.

Face facts, if the club and Nike thought that the fans would not start buying the merchandise they would not accept 12 months of minimal sales etc. They have not manufactured a years worth of stock now.
If we were serious about not buying enough merchandise then it would be cost effective to change now. Cut their losses and all that.

We may have a choice here fellow Evertonians, pat ourselves on the back for a small victory or fight on for a real victory?

Phil Bellis
207 Posted 29/05/2013 at 09:00:56
Simon Hughes (101)]
"... It doesn't have to have our Latin logo, we all know it..."

Doesn't that also apply to the year and the name Everton?

"...who am I to disagree?" Oh dear

Iain Johnston
208 Posted 29/05/2013 at 08:54:41
Personally, I don't think they'll do anything. Twelve months is a long time. This time next year we'll be sitting here saying "Hey Kenwright, where's the new badge?". His response?. "Oh, er, we forgot". Sorry for being cynical but I don't trust a thing any of them do..
The new merchandise doesn't usually go on sale until July. I don't believe it when Elstone says it's already manufactured..
What would they do if Chang pulled out tomorrow? The merchandise would be binned pronto.
Chris Rudd
209 Posted 29/05/2013 at 09:02:39
Simon Hughes - "Is the badge really that awful? It contains the tower, our formation year and our club name so where's the problem? It doesn't have to have our Latin logo, we all know it and it's still plastered around the ground. If professional designers and a marketing team believe it's advantageous to simplify the badge to promote it worldwide and to a younger audience, then who am I to disagree?"

Yes it is that awful. This was done 'on the cheap' by an 'in-house' design team. What any new crest have to have is our ethos, our soul, our heritage... this has none of those.

Some of the recent redesigns of football crests have been beautifully executed (see Chris Mitchell's work) - ours has simply been executed.

Gavin Ramejkis
211 Posted 29/05/2013 at 09:20:11
On a tangent but go to the petition page and look at recent signatures, a former of this parish now at Man U
Brian Waring
212 Posted 29/05/2013 at 09:41:58
Steve, I know where your coming from, but if fans continue to buy merchandise, what is there to stop the club thinking 'hang on, fans are still spending money so we don't need to change the badge.'
Christine Foster
213 Posted 29/05/2013 at 10:42:02
Why on earth does ANYONE believe the club anymore? They have diffused the situation be telling us they will review it next year. Really? Don't hold your breath.

The club have backed down? Really? Listened to the fans? Not a chance, to Nike maybe, fans? Why change the habit of a lifetime.

They have been economical with the truth, backtracked and bought themselves time because they got Sussed big time, embarrassingly so, by telling everyone they had consulted fans, shareholders et al, just another little white lie, not!

Charlatans, manipulators, if anyone was in doubt that the power of fans and resultant publicity works then consider what would happen with a conserted effort of the supporters to raise the issues of ownership of the club and it's mis management.

Yet many still believe...

Jimmy Sørheim
214 Posted 29/05/2013 at 11:05:40
This is just another cheap media stunt!!

A promise that they will never keep.

By waiting one year then they hope that tempers will slow down and that they
can do just a minor change on the new badge and all will be okay.

I will never accept this insult, I will not buy one single item as long as this crap badge is on the shirts.
For me it is that simple.

I do not buy crap, and it leaves a cheap stain on all that is Everton FC.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum.

Phil Bellis
215 Posted 29/05/2013 at 11:16:54
Christine

The OS apology states "Whilst the time-constraints of kit suppliers in particular present challenges, which inevitably means the version released on Saturday will be in operation for the 2013/14 season"

I take that to mean they are talking about replica kits, mugs, pens, baby bibs and other tat already manufactured
(won't go into my views on them simply "biting the bullet" and getting rid of the lot)

Obvously, therefore, going by that "explanation", the new "badge" will NOT appear around the stadium, in the background at interviews, on the official website etc - only on Kitbag shops/website merchandise
(btw, it is STILL boldy and brazenly displayed on the OS home page)

Let's see shall we

Gavin Ramejkis
216 Posted 29/05/2013 at 11:29:13
Phil I suspect unless someone is a genuine glutton for punishment or Dan Brierley who thinks he can make a mint on the antiques roadshow (find Eugene's comedy gold for that one) I suspect this tat will be littering the shops for a long time before it gets shovelled where it belongs - a landfill, can almost picture boy soldiers in some African country holding aloft an AK47 wearing the replica kit even a mother couldn't love
Phil Bellis
217 Posted 29/05/2013 at 11:37:27
Gavin
This link shows the GP technical area - I presume the "interim" badge will now be removed from display?

Hmmmm...

http://www.evertonfc.com/nil-satis-nisi-optimum

Michael Penley
218 Posted 29/05/2013 at 08:10:35
Huw Jenkins - Of course, there's no doubt that marketing and branding people such as yourself know more than the fans about these things. But what is disturbing in this whole thing is the way the crest was viewed, right from the start, from a marketing and branding perspective, and ONLY from that perspective. Until attention was drawn to how much it meant to the fans by their outrage, the crest had been levelled down to a means to make market the club, when it means so much more to the current fans. Anything that got in the way of that - history, tradition, pride, nostalgia - was consigned to the trash can. The fear is that this will happen with other elements of the club, and EFC will be gradually reduced to a profit-making machine. Which on a certain level it is, but we need to acknowledge that it is not the only level or even the most important one.
Patrick Murphy
219 Posted 29/05/2013 at 11:53:37
Regardless of the pors and cons of the crest fiasco it is quite clear in my own mind that Mr Tyrell has to resign, not so much because of the badge issue in itself but more to do with the leaked document that he is alleged to have drafted while he was at LFC. The Echo thanks to fan sites such as this one has latched onto this and have it in today's edition. We cannot have a man - if the document did originate from his hands - who will come under immense pressure and possible legal action at Everton FC we have enough problems of our own to contend with without becoming embroiled in LFC's dirty laundry.
Patrick Murphy
220 Posted 29/05/2013 at 12:12:37
Well this guy doesn't have an axe to grind does he?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/may/29/everton-club-badge-fans-motto

Paul Melarange
221 Posted 29/05/2013 at 12:20:00
At least the club has made an apology but unfortunately we are stuck with the crest for one season and then hopefully we all get a vote on the crest we get for the following season.

I heard Sharpie on radio this morning and the Fans Forum consulted consisted of 12 people, little surprise there has been such a backlash from a huge number of the fan base! Let's hope they do things a bit cleverer when appointing the next manager!

Mike Green
222 Posted 29/05/2013 at 12:27:53
Patrick 261 - written by Paul Wilson, who believe it or not is apparently a Blue......
Phil Sammon
223 Posted 29/05/2013 at 12:37:41
He'd fit in here then.
Eugene Ruane
224 Posted 29/05/2013 at 13:06:33
Just a general point.

Imo, anyone using 'we need to move forward', without giving specific details of how we CAN, might as well say "spinggle donggle binggle flubble'.

That's..um...all really.

James Lauwervine
225 Posted 29/05/2013 at 13:23:36
Patrick #261, thanks for the link, though it basically ruined my lunch. What an absolute fool (and tool) that man is. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinions but his are so ill-informed and poorly argued that I'm seriously thinking about ditching my Saturday morning routine of buying the paper he works for. And I say that despite thinking that the new badge is okay - he just plain misses the point and thinks having a Latin Dictionary makes him appear clever.
Phil Sammon
226 Posted 29/05/2013 at 13:44:03
James

I'd say that Laurie Penny is a better reason not to fritter away your Roubles on the Gruniad.

Eugene

Why don't you 'kick on' and explain your point further?

Greg Webber
227 Posted 29/05/2013 at 14:12:36
Whilst sitting on the thinking chair deap in thought about the new crest, I thought to myself: Is this an ingenious ploy by Bill to get more money in the coffers?

Has he changed the crest with full knowledge that no-one will like it, therefore creating the type of hype that has been created. I have read many a fan saying "I'm not buying anything with that piece of shit on it." How much merchandise with the "old" crest was sold in the few days before the announcement of changing it after a season? How much dead stock has he cleared? — Hey, I have bought a polo.

He then announces that "We got in wrong, we will change it again next year... but we are stuck with it for this season." How many of those same fans that said "We are not buying anything" now will, knowing they will have something that only lasted a season? (What happens if we win a cup - is it now a good luck charm, discussion for another time)

And guess what: for all those fans that need to have the current shirt will have to buy another top, polo, scarf or whatever as – guess what – we will have a new crest!!

Can Bill really be a brilliant businessman? Is he really this smart?

Paul Andrews
228 Posted 29/05/2013 at 14:23:04
NO.
Brent Stephens
229 Posted 29/05/2013 at 14:29:09
The link to the Grauniad (Phil, I think that's the correct misspeeling of it!) takes us to Paul Wilson's comment (doesn't it?). Technically he's Observer not Grauniad, though he used to be and they are sister publications. I quite like the guy when I see him on TV. Seems to talk sense - normally.
Sharon Larkin
230 Posted 29/05/2013 at 14:19:08
Christine I agree, I do not think they will change the badge next year, I think they will hope it'll all calm.
Eugene Ruane
231 Posted 29/05/2013 at 14:26:31
Phil (314) - Exactly!

The art of speaking without saying anything.

"Yeah, great to see you, we really should do something soon"

(ie: let's do nothing..never)

'Touching bases' and 'paradigms' and 'pushing the envelope' blah wank waffle - a real irritant, especially as one gets older.

'Moving forward' though is one I hear on a daily basis.

Often from shifty-arse politicians feeling hot under the collar.

"Yes we accept viss hasn't been perfect, but if we want to do something constwuctive, we weelly need to move forward..."

(ie: 'get me the fuck out of here!").

Also, it's often said as though from some wise sage "here's something you might not have considered, let's move....FORWARD!"

"Oh fucking GREAT suggestion, I was just about to suggest moving sideways or backwards in a corkscrew motion".

Then there's 'move on' - popular on TW when someone's argument begins to collapse.

"Look, this is pointless, you say Alan Ball was ginger, I say he was blonde, time to move on"

Why?

Very popular in this situation is also 'let's agree to disagree'.

Again, why?

Why not "let's just agree I'm right and you're talking bollocks"?

I'm 100% with Roy Walker on this.

Say what you see.

James Lauwervine
232 Posted 29/05/2013 at 16:26:14
And for the record:
Nil - Nothing
Satis - Satisfies
Nisi - Unless
Optimum - The Best.
Why does this seem unclear to some people? And why can this not be the motto just because we don't win every game. It's pretty obvious we're not the best, but guess what, we're not bleeding satisfied either! Bloody hell, I'm going to ruin my dinner too at this rate. Eugene, I think I need to 'move forward'...
James McCall
233 Posted 29/05/2013 at 16:07:50
Apology not accepted.I'm still not buying a single item linked to this crest,if Bill Kenwright is one of us and truly understands the club and the fans this cartoon image wouldn't have got off the drawing board.A whole season seeing our famous blue jersey sporting that crest isn't going to be nice.On another note I genuinly believe this was done for the pre-season trip to America for the ICC tournament and Everton and Bill had little or no say in the matter and was probably demanded by nike or the tournament sponsors and was one of the conditions on taking part,look at the way our crest fits in with all the other teams entered on the official site.This is why the clubs saying sorry but its too late this season and we will consult with fans for next year.I realy hope not a single shirt is sold at any price £50+ or £15 on offer at the end of the season.I will be wearing one of number previous seasons shirts from my collection and i'll save £150 next season whilst still wearing something with class that im proud to wear.
Patrick Murphy
234 Posted 29/05/2013 at 16:37:34
James I was thinking the same thing, how many of those clubs taking part have Nike kits? It seems like Nike are taking over world football as Umbro has also been replaced by them for the England stuff as well.

Peter Foy
235 Posted 29/05/2013 at 20:02:41
Is it a fair assumption that any adult wearing the new merchandise in the Gwladys next season will get dogs abuse, and maybe a black eye?
Daniel Starkey
236 Posted 29/05/2013 at 23:18:49
Peter 588
I know people have strong feelings about the new badge but that isn't going to happen.
Steven Sturm
237 Posted 30/05/2013 at 04:46:13
The "new" crest makes a good icon for an ap on your phone. Full crest (fan's favorite selection) for other uses. That's my vote.

Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.


About these ads

© ToffeeWeb