Belgian Rotation Caps Astute Business by Martinez
Musings on the loss of Marouane Fellaini and Everton's immediate prospects following Roberto Martinez's transfer window business, particularly the addition of Romelu Lukaku
Everton have been involved in some climactic transfer deadline day finales in years gone by but surely none could match the drama of Monday's events or the sheer number of pieces that appeared to fall into place in such a short space of time in the final hour before the window slammed shut until the New Year.
Before this week, Marouane Fellaini's deadline-defying move from Standard Liege in 2008 arguably held the title of the Blues' most exciting end to a transfer window, closely followed by Steven Pienaar's return from Tottenham in January last year (a history that contradicts the narrative in some of the national media in the aftermath of Manchester United's perceived summer of transfer calamity that David Moyes has taken his inability to secure late deals with him to Old Trafford; the ex-manager had his share of final-day failings but often through necessity, he effected some of his best trading with time running out) both of which deals were done with bare minutes to spare and with confirmation of their completion coming well after the deadline had expired.
Moyes's successor looked like he was staring down the barrel of a debacle as the clock raced towards 11pm on Monday evening but Roberto Martinez, Bill Kenwright and team pulled off the impressive feat of wrapping up three incoming transfers and two outgoing in time to have all five deals ratified before the deadline.
The move that took Fellaini away from Goodison to be reunited with Moyes at United, together with Martinez's acquisition of James McCarthy, had long been on the cards and, Gareth Barry's loan from Manchester City, although only first mooted a few days previously, was similarly anticipated – perhaps even more so in light of the abortive move for Porto's Fernando and with time ticking down.
Nevertheless, whether your assumptions are based on the majority of Monday's late chain of events being reliant on the "domino effect" of Fellaini's deal with United or whether you believe the Barry and McCarthy acquisitions would have happened regardless, the belated nature of all three transactions suggests that there was little straightforward about any of them.
There is nothing like a bit of drama, though, to add to the feel-good factor expressed by Evertonians once all the business had been concluded and the Blues should be in a stronger position now than they were at on the other side of the deadline.
There has been an inevitability about the departure of Fellaini this summer, one that germinated when Bill Kenwright first acknowledged the Belgian's release clause at the time of Martinez's appointment was announced in June. Though his performances at full throttle were rare – that somewhat languid demeanour, bordering on the shirking of responsibility in the case of the Wigan game in the FA Cup in March, coupled with his stated desire for Champions League football, is largely what made him more dispensible in the minds of Evertonians than Leighton Baines – the Belgian was, nonetheless, an immense talent whose combination of skills hasn't completely been replaced.
Quietly effective as a holding midfielder in his preferred role under Martinez so far, Fellaini's importance to the defensive side of the Blues' game has probably been under-appreciated. His incredible ability to bring almost anything down on his chest, his use of his size to retain the ball, shrug off challenges and keep things moving in Everton's midfield made him a vital cog in the machine.
There are few players in the Premier League to match his physical attributes so a direct replacement was always going to be difficult. In Gareth Barry, however, Martinez has brought in an experienced, accomplished and largely underrated campaigner who can fulfil many of the duties that he was expecting of Fellaini sitting in front of the back four.
Fellaini was always at his most dangerous playing further forward under David Moyes, though, and he possessed the crucial ability to turn a game on his own. Witness his two-goal showing at Old Trafford in that thrilling 4-4 draw last year, his towering display against United on the opening day of last season, his match-winning assists against Sunderland and the manner in which he dragged Everton back from the brink of humiliation to 3-3 against Aston Villa.
Which is why the acquisition of Romelu Lukaku and not just any striker was so astute. If the first three games of the season showed anything it's that the Blues badly needed another striking option, someone more clinical than Nikica Jelavic or Arouna Kone have been this far, to score the goals that would press home their League-leading possession advantage.
On the evidence of his exploits with a fairly modest West Bromwich Albion side last season, Lukaku will score goals, potentially a hatful of them in a more attack-minded side if Martinez can get the attacking side of his midfield humming. Importantly, the Belgian striker will compensate enormously for the loss of Fellaini's physical threat up front, potentially offering the Blues as unplayable a presence in attack as his international teammate has done in recent seasons.
And it's that package of strength, aerial ability and precociousness that could prove to be so vital, particularly as, for all Martinez's success in the summer transfer window, perhaps the one missing link has been a commanding attacking central-midfield player who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and dictate it with incisive forward passing and an eye for goal.
Ross Barkley has shown immense potential as the medium- to long-term answer in that role on a consistent basis but the team arguably still lacks a Mikel Arteta-type player who has the guile to open up an entrenched opposition defence.
On face value, McCarthy doesn't seem like that kind of player but, as a natural successor to Leon Osman in central midfield and a competitor in the starting XI to Darron Gibson, the Irish international will get ample opportunity to show exactly what kind of player he can be for Everton. At 22, time is certainly on his side and he comes to Goodison with a glowing reputation.
With the window out the way and Leighton Baines still where he belongs, the team and fans can look forward now with a greater sense of optimism that some fuel can now be injected into the sluggish start under the new manager. No better opportunity to make a statement of intent than against big-spending Chelsea once the international break is out the way.
Follow @Everton1an
Reader Comments (124)
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
2 Posted 06/09/2013 at 08:09:08
Right now though, all that matters is that Martinez keeps the team playing and gets them scoring as the league table shows us that we are both unbeaten, as well as hovering above the drop zone early on. The game against Chelsea is already massive.
3 Posted 06/09/2013 at 08:00:39
The one worry I have about Barry is his pace (lack of), he is about as fleet as Heitinga. It illustrates the worth of Distin who is indispensable as Jags partner in one of the finest combinations anywhere. Distin is a model professional and really looks after himself. I just hope that Young Stones improves and eventually steps into Distin's shoes.
The great thing about this window was the fact that we actually MADE money and surely we now have sufficient funds to be able to offer Baines a decent contract that will keep him at the club with something left over for adding to the squad in the next window if it is needed.
Our bench is the strongest it has been and no longer is made up of free, ageing has beens. It seemed as though we were giving 'jobs' to every Yozzer Hughes who wanted one. Getting them off the payroll is a big plus !!
Martinez seems to have identified our weaknesses and acted swiftly to remedy them. He has kept our back four intact as that is definitely our strength and concentrated in adding good players to our midfield and strike force. The emergence of our youngsters is an exciting prospect for the future with Barkley improving with each game and Stones showing immense promise. I'm not so worried about replacing Ozzie and Pienaar as I was before.
The two loans we have acquired are a huge improvement on the loans and freebees we had in the past. No more Hitzlspergers, McFaddens and Hahnemanns taking up bench room at the expense of young talent. Moyes did a fine job for us over the past years despite the lack of funds and he has laid the foundations for Martinez to take on to the next level.
We may not reach the dizzy heights of the Champions League just yet, but we can look forward to better football. The squad now looks capable of putting on a good show if we do manage to reach a European cup place. Our last venture in Europe was pretty dismal.
4 Posted 06/09/2013 at 08:19:33
Most pundits reckon we did good business - but given they'd been talking up Fellaini's move all summer they would say that. If you accept that Barry, although a loan signing, is effectively a one year free transfer due to being in the last year of his City deal - and he'll certainly be trying to earn another deal with a family settled in the NW, then we've certainly strengthened in spite of the loss of Fellaini. To have done so and still end up with a net inflow of money for the whole of the summer's business is remarkable.
Whether you love or loathe the media fest that is transfer deadline day, given that our main transfers out and in were long expected, I can't wonder but if we'd have been better getting the deals done long ago? Even if we'd have received a lower fee, would we have been able to recover any of the 6 points dropped already this season?
5 Posted 06/09/2013 at 08:31:23
6 Posted 06/09/2013 at 09:01:36
He was well suited to a Moyes game plan, but would no doubt be less effective under Roberto. We will miss his height from set pieces though, more often than not, he was an outlet for throw in's into the opposition box.
I will look forward to watching McCarthy & Seamus playing for the the Republic tonight, can't say I've seen much of McCarthy to be honest.
You never know, once Lukaku feels the love at Goodison Park, he may want to stay.
7 Posted 06/09/2013 at 09:15:53
From what I have seen of McCarthy so far, his best asset is his ability to pick out a defence-splitting pass, something we have been lacking since the departure of Arteta.
8 Posted 06/09/2013 at 09:26:04
Come January, there will be no "surplus cash". The profit made in this window (around £8m) will have gone on undisclosed loan fees, contingency for the bigger wage bill for a bigger first team squad, contingency for Baines's justly improved contract to come.
If there's any left after that lot, if I was running a business ,I'd use it together with the increased TV money, which is in all probability already borrowed against, to reduce the debt.
To sum up – We have spent all the money.
Great article, Lyndon, by the way.
9 Posted 06/09/2013 at 09:34:44
I'm glad we've brought in a potential goal threat. Otherwise, it was more a sense of relief that we at least had something to replace the hole left by our best player leaving.
10 Posted 06/09/2013 at 09:48:07
I believe the profit to be more than £8 million though, as I don't believe the loan fee for Barry would have been massive, or that we are paying him any more that what Fellaini was on. Same with Victors wages (reported 30k a week) probably covering what McCarthy is on, which leaves only Lukaku as extra expenditure. If we were 'strong financially' though, then surely that meant that all outgoings were already being covered by the business (extra tv money would help as we certainly didnt spend much of it)? So why would we need extra income to cover costs?
11 Posted 06/09/2013 at 09:55:22
12 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:03:03
I still haven't heard how much of Barry's and Lukaku's wages we're picking up but even 50% of Barry's reported £100k+ per week is considerable.
13 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:03:22
My early season misery knew no bounds as witnessed by my 'we're becoming the new Wigan' obsession. But even with yet another emigrant from those pastures in our ranks, I woke up on Tuesday with an altogether new sense of optimism.
The black cloud has 'passed'. COYB!
14 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:21:14
Hopefully the signing of McCarthy/Barry and the removal of Fellaini will lead to a better midfield balance that moves the ball quicker giving it to Pienaar/Mirallas/Barkley in more space so that they can get a quick ball into a striker who only has the regular number of defenders to deal with, not the whole opposition team.
16 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:41:17
17 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:34:55
A motivated McCarthy and Barry is an improvement on a half-motivated Fellaini.
I agree with most that we still need to get through defences to give the strikers a chance though.
18 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:42:07
I don't think those estimates are out of the question, so I would expect money to spend in January without any sales, but then this is Kenwright's Everton.
19 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:52:40
20 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:54:03
21 Posted 06/09/2013 at 10:59:23
For all the talk of great business done, the asset that is Everton's squad went down considerably in overall value.
Let's just hope the perennial £45 million debt went down a bit...
22 Posted 06/09/2013 at 11:07:16
What you hope is that values for Stones, Barkley and McCarthy go up to compensate or exceed. I don't think that is out of the question.
On that point though, we have to buy youth in January unless it is felt a purchase would significantly increase income (Europa, CL).
Osman, Pienaar, Distin, Howard, Osman, Hibbert, Kone, Barry, Alcaraz and even Howard are all within 3 years of moving away from PL football.
23 Posted 06/09/2013 at 11:18:48
It will be interesting to see who RM plays when all are fit in centre midfield.
24 Posted 06/09/2013 at 11:43:54
ps: There's only one Osman.
25 Posted 06/09/2013 at 11:47:20
"When you get to work with him every day, you get to realise that technically he is excellent. His chest control is arguably one of the best in the world. You can bang the ball at him from anywhere and he will bring it down on his chest and bring others into play.
Thank fuck we are rid of these goons. Hope Man Utd enjoy watching the ball 'being banged' at Fellaini.
And they wonder why we are clueless at International level!!
26 Posted 06/09/2013 at 11:41:47
I don't find Fellaini leaving to be replaced by Barry and McCarthy as better for us, and as much as I'm excited about Lukaku, the approach play we have shown this season will not play to his strengths.
The bland averageness of Alcaraz and Kone do nothing to impress, and Def..Defe... that Spanish kid, is an unknown quantity.
All in all, we're no better no worse.
27 Posted 06/09/2013 at 12:07:01
No,Kevin,I don't think anymore of Martinez because of a few good signings but I have much more hope he will prove me to have been wrong.
And Dan,with your intimate knowledge of the Club's finances allied to your economic expertise,we know Everton is in good hands.Or could be if they gave you Elstone's job !
28 Posted 06/09/2013 at 12:27:20
30 Posted 06/09/2013 at 13:54:29
We fans can only give him a chance now to blend these players into his style of playing and trust Everton will become a better team. To have kept Fellaini around would have been a detriment to the team's performances despite the fact he had been one of the most dangerous offensive players in the Prem but when Everton used him in the holding role he was not as effective and the team suffered.
Barry may be past his prime but could be very useful for a season because of his great experience and the injury problems of Gibson. He is also a left sided player and can compliment Baines. McCarthy has a lot of talent and is ready to replace an aging, waning Osman.
31 Posted 06/09/2013 at 14:35:11
We make money every transfer window Trevor because we usually sell players and bring none in.
Dan # 237 " Lets just hope the perennial £45 million debt went down a bit."
I doubt that the next set of accounts will show any improvement in that nett debt figure.
32 Posted 06/09/2013 at 14:57:59
This season has barely started yet ffs!
We have BY FAR the strongest first XI we've had in at least 6-7 years, if not more, not just in strength but balance as well. Added to that we have decent options on the bench for once rather than dross like McFadden, Gueye, Straq, Neville etc.
Our starting XI has 3 England internationals (possibly 4), 2 Belgium internationals, 3 Irish internationals (arguably the best ones), the US 'keeper and Pienaar and Distin. May not be in the leagues of Barca or Real Madrid, but given the foot/hoofball we've had to endure over recent year, I am over the moon!
Maybe the years of moaning under Moyes (me included) have left some folk unable to break the habit.
Lets give RM a chance and see how this team does over the coming months.....once Lukaku starts banging them in, I bet this website will be a much happier place....
33 Posted 06/09/2013 at 15:22:11
34 Posted 06/09/2013 at 15:37:21
35 Posted 06/09/2013 at 14:05:32
I'll be re reading this a few times over the next few days because I found myself nodding in agreement as I was reading, but there's plenty that I want to take in too.
Matt Traynor (196)
VERY good point you conclude with:
"I can't wonder but if we'd have been better getting the deals done long ago? Even if we'd have received a lower fee, would we have been able to recover any of the 6 points dropped already this season?"
In support of this, I'd point to our assertive early moves in the window (without focus upon the timing being the issue)
The reaction everywhere to Everton's dramatic conclusion to the transfer window is overwhelmingly positive to the actions taken and the potential with which these signings equip Roberto for the rest of the season in the 3 competitions.
Keeping Baines was a great and as good as a signing
Losing Fellaini was a big shame but a real non-surprise
It could be argued that getting McCarthy for less than what Dave "Ronseal" Whelan had stated was as big an achievement as adding £4M to the buyout figure for Fellaini.
The concerted efforts which saw Lukaku join us hints at another plus Roberto's charm offensive.
Mirallas is clearly delighted at playing his part in persuading his pal to join us. Bloody sure that if Kev thought that his new boss wasn't up to much then that hotel room conversation could have scuppered any prospect.
Lukaku admits Mirallas contribution and adds that Roberto's 30 chat had him keen to join Everton.
Roberto believes he is better equipped overall now than when he arrived and he has overwhelming support for that opinion and personnel capable of turning optimism into results.
That process will already be underway for some, but the practical test commences again versus Chelsea
COYB
36 Posted 06/09/2013 at 15:37:54
37 Posted 06/09/2013 at 16:14:08
It's one thing to say the guy's not up to his job but quite another for 'some people' to accuse him of outright theft .
I'm sure you are not one of that number!
38 Posted 06/09/2013 at 17:03:30
If more money is kept in the club - e.g. via paying down the debt, then the value of the club should go up. Meaning that BK et al eventually get more money for their shares - when they ever get round to actually selling...
39 Posted 06/09/2013 at 17:11:06
Just my view-I'm sure others will disagree.
40 Posted 06/09/2013 at 17:39:20
41 Posted 06/09/2013 at 18:14:02
No real arguing with that in principle, then as the saying goes "the devil is in the detail"
Premier League finances and deals are "Texas Holdem"
We played several good hands in "Transfer Window"
BUT
Winning a hand reveals far far far more than losing one or not even playing at all. It may never be this good again
Frankly, so far I'll take odds on "Cool Hand Martinez" in the PL Poker Tournament against "Mr Bottle the Ditherer" playing "Happy Families" with the kids in a caravan in Prestatyn in the rain
42 Posted 06/09/2013 at 18:45:52
43 Posted 06/09/2013 at 18:10:03
Between profits on transfers and the new t.v deal cash, people are right to see this as an opportunity to pay down some of the club debt. People are also right to doubt if the current Board is competent enough, or has the will to do so. They haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in terms of managing the club's finances. Time will tell on that one.
While I would agree with Dan McKie that the cash value of the squad has gone down, so has the age profile. If Martinez continues on the transition theme in terms of giving young players their chance, while continuing to change the style of football, then in time the cash value of the squad should increase. The acid test for this will be the start of the month of October. The new and younger players will have had time to bed in and get used to being part of the first team squad. I would hope that they would start to get meaningful game time at this stage. If Osman is still getting regular starts into December then I would be starting to grumble.
44 Posted 06/09/2013 at 18:57:15
TBH sadly I look like I already scoffed em !
Though surely any self respecting Evertonian would not set out to eat 50 ?
SIXTY !
45 Posted 06/09/2013 at 19:00:39
And where as I don't agree Moyes left an aging squad, we've sold a couple of 25 year olds and brought in Kone at 29, Alcaraz at 31.
Still, its not like the old days where you're done by 32. Distin is still doing the business.
46 Posted 06/09/2013 at 19:05:06
47 Posted 06/09/2013 at 19:01:41
Good stuff mate
Yes we lost two, one a BIG Blue, one a big blue
WE took the money and we believe that the greater good will be served, not instantaneously (there is no prize to be claimed immediately anyway) but in due course
Like "Like the cut o'yer jib" Kieran !
48 Posted 06/09/2013 at 19:08:53
When you say "I had put on my dress"
I'm less ashamed by this revelation from you than I could be since you refer to "dress" in the singular.
I think this particular diversion should be treated in the same manner as Terry Apricot's career should have been, cut short, cut short now !
(And I do NOT mean your hemline !)
49 Posted 06/09/2013 at 18:09:32
The figures to me are totally inconsequential as any surplus doesn't come to me. It doesn't even seem to benefit Everton. The debt will remain at £42-45m and that money will not be available come Jan. So as a fan, I'm disappointed we didn't hold firm, and gutted that we swapped Fellaini for McCarthy.
Barry and Lukaku are great signings and as they are loans, I suspect the sale of Anichebe, may well have been enough to fund these. So the way I see it, we could have got them anyway.
So how can anyone (except the finance director) say Everton are better off with McCarthy rather than Fellaini? It was a financial decision not a footballing one, as he could leave for £23.5m in The next window. But If we kept him we would have had a better side up to Jan, and have had more time to line up McCarthy and Fernando. At the same time Moyes would be under immense pressure. Worth the £4m to me. The £4m that no fan will ever get the benefit of!
Come Jan it could have been us in second place, only 1pt behind Chelsea with a game in hand. Utd in sixth, with Rooney trying to force a move and Van Persie injured. Fellaini may have got other ideas.
But never mind, Utd will be top and we will have to make do with a £27.5m bid for Rooney next summer when we finish 4th instead. COYBs
50 Posted 06/09/2013 at 19:40:39
51 Posted 06/09/2013 at 19:49:25
Right you are, Stuart. Thanks for the correction. My memory was playing tricks on me!
52 Posted 06/09/2013 at 20:00:30
Dennis (#247)
You say "we have by FAR the strongest first XI we’ve had in at least 6/7 years, if not more"... Fair enough, a matter of opinion, but did you not claim on another thread that a top 10 finish would be acceptable?
I don’t get it. If as you say we are so much stronger, why do you set the bar so much lower than it has been during those 6/7 years?
After years of being told that 6th isn’t good enough for us, now, it seems, top half is... the stronger we get, the lower, it seems, our expectations.
We were fantastic during the first half of last season; our football drew praise from many an observer. Okay, we struggled a bit later, but small squads always will in the current EPL.
I’m guessing you were not a DM fan (no law against that) but if, like so many of his critics, you insist on claiming we are so much stronger than before, are you not contributing to the pressure on RM?
If you are so certain we are stronger... should you not be raising your expectations?
53 Posted 06/09/2013 at 21:19:02
How did utd keep Rooney?
How did RS keep Suarez?
He wanted go so yeah let him go, it was just a bit fun (especially the last two paragraphs) The more serious pt. is that we replaced Fellaini with a worse player and a significant amount of money will go missing.
But Barkley is on now so switch over from the belguim game and put England on!
54 Posted 06/09/2013 at 21:56:58
This nothingness league position brings us nought but a few quid and even so Moyes certainly wasn't 6th or better every year, let's kill that lie
If that is the sum of ambition complain not when we lose players to those who want to win things or qualify for the CL.
Winning nowt and surrendering at certain grounds against certain opposition is simply not acceptable.
The task RM has is to revitalise this club, educate a generation that cowardice and craven kneeling to other clubs is not right - "knife to a gunfight" is a scandalous mindset.
The transition to a quiet souless husk of a club was virtually complete by the time the utd man started his Grimms fairy tales excusing his contract aversion.
There are many gauges to judge Martinez in this first season some of which are being ticked off already - the change of style, more dynamic players, a feeling of positivity and quite frankly a bit of defiance.
It is clear the dirge of death intermittently sang as "best of the rest" will only vanish from some if RM actually wins something.
Meanwhile the scurrilous traps get laid re 6th - taking the piss really.
55 Posted 06/09/2013 at 22:19:44
Get real,please!
56 Posted 06/09/2013 at 22:03:03
Sorry fella. I know its incovenient to your idiotic "wont buy my shite, therefore a Moyes desciple" argument.
I despise the united manager, but no more than being treated like I was born yesterday by people like you fawning all over Martnez, giving him credit he hasnt yet earned. Your ridiculous and unwarrented adoration is already outstripping the worst cases of Moyes love.
Martinez has enough on his plate. Without geriatric groupies making idiotic comparisons in order to try ( and fail ) to score a point.
How about you forget the treacherous Ginger twat and stop pretending our first three games have been anything but brain numbing.
Who knows, if we all start calling a spade a spade, we may actually unite behind our current (and therefore only relevant ) boss
57 Posted 06/09/2013 at 22:37:42
"Belgian Rotation Caps Astute Business by Martinez"
Boss Headliner !
Absolutely Boss !
58 Posted 06/09/2013 at 22:44:56
"After years of being told that 6th isn't good enough for us, ......."
You won't find anyone anywhere saying that in relation to the manager in isolation.
2 short planks comes to mind with dross like yours aided and abetted by your failure to deal with the points arising
Love your "treacherous Ginger twat" effort real tough guy aren't ya?
Not trying too hard at all.
59 Posted 06/09/2013 at 22:03:03
Most Evertonians want to move on and concentrate on the present, you on the other hand cant, Moyes clealy occupies your every thought - as clearly demonstrated in your posts. Maybe its time to move on, find a new osbsession.
you may want to trade your girly gushings for some down to earh honest assesments when you post about RM while your at it.
Good night
60 Posted 06/09/2013 at 23:37:34
I won't say sleep tight judging by that last post you're nearly unconscious.
Get some strong black coffee down your neck lad.
61 Posted 07/09/2013 at 00:15:44
62 Posted 07/09/2013 at 00:32:50
63 Posted 07/09/2013 at 08:08:31
Will RM now have the advantage of working with the best squad we have ever had and being able to challenge to win the league?
I will give you a straight opinion in one sentence, no and no but it's better than it was a week ago.
64 Posted 07/09/2013 at 08:24:20
"I will give you a straight opinion in one sentence, no and no but it's better than it was a week ago."
I agree, the big improvement is we look like we might try with the new regime.
Losing the "chokers" mindset might see us win silverware Moyes bottling attitude certainly contributed hugely to our cup failures.
But Martinez first season in charge evaluating, getting rid of the deadwood and building his own squad MUST take time.
The slippery game of the decaying Moyes tribe "we finished 6th last year" ergo we must repeat or better it immediately is a dreadful trap against RM.
Competitive sport just doesn't work like that, it wouldn't be competitive otherwise.
Dressing it up as ambition is a sham, a spineless sleight of hand avoiding accusations of lack of support for Everton's new manager.
How does it go? ... call him all the names under the sun then add "but I'll give him my full support" - yeh right!
65 Posted 07/09/2013 at 09:32:59
I'm happy with how the squad is looking and the energy RM has brought but so far the results have not matched the soundbites. Very early days but lets see what happens on the pitch shall we. Hopefully you're right.
66 Posted 07/09/2013 at 09:40:41
"Belgian Rotation Caps Astute Business by Martinez"
Boss Headliner ! Absolutely Boss !' (Tony Draper @382)
Agreed Tony. It is a good headline. As we know, TW is a great site, but its headlines sometimes let it down. They are too often perfunctory. A clever/funny/sparky/dramati/eloquent headline can work wonders.
Ah, constructive criticism - I love dishing it out. I don't want to receive any myself though, thanks for asking.
67 Posted 07/09/2013 at 09:45:51
Christmas 2014 and we can hopefully start expecting to see a Martinez
lead revolution....well something to threaten the elite anyway. This may be unrealistic as no manager has really threatened the money clubs, and our former manager came closer than anyone.
I'm not really sure what progress would look like, short of CL qualification, but will hopefully know it when it happens
68 Posted 07/09/2013 at 09:50:09
RM has a history of fighting massive odds - rebuilding Swansea, defying the inevitable Wigan demise year on year.
Even when succumbing to the inevitable he came here and demolished us 3 nil (admittedly not a great surprise) and went on to beat the champs in the cup final.
You only have to look at the Barca boy and snatching victory from the jaws of defeat on transfer day to see change.
Oh and we're unbeaten!
69 Posted 07/09/2013 at 10:00:38
70 Posted 07/09/2013 at 09:52:38
"Martinez first season in charge evaluating, getting rid of the deadwood and building his own squad MUST take time."
Mourinho, Benitez, Laudrup, AVB, Moyes, Pelligrini, Mancini, Pochettino have never talked in these terms... in fact I don't think Martinez has talked of it either
If we had appointed that quality of manager we... you... wouldn't be talking in terms of excuse.
"The slippery game of the decaying Moyes tribe "we finished 6th last year" ergo we must repeat or better it immediately is a dreadful trap against RM."
Again you're creating your own arguments. We can all judge a season on its own merits.
What are your ambitions for the coming seasons? You've mentioned we 'look like we might try'. Accusing others of no ambition in this case is weak.
71 Posted 07/09/2013 at 09:35:42
Every Evertonian wants Roberto to do well and most will give him his honeymon period. We all want a team to be proud of.
What they wont do, is be taken in by your infantile claims born out of combination of adoration for our new boss and your desperate desire to be right .
You call for people to reserve judgement, give Roberto a chance, yet you want to beatify him before he's even got his coat off.
If you really want to show people how clever you are, don't just come on blustering about vast improvements, tell us where you think we will improve.
Will we get more points than last year? Get bigger attendances, score more goals ? win more games ?
If you don't know why pretend you do ?
Do what you are claiming others wont do, give the guy a chance
72 Posted 07/09/2013 at 10:15:13
But even if such words are not issued I don't see how you conclude new managers changing the system and personnel don't need time - strange idea.
Judgement is indeed subjective just thought I would point out the hidden agenda behind comparing the last Moyes position in isolation - it needed saying.
I want us to win stuff first and foremost, if we can't win I expect us to go down fighting not wimpering as before.
I want us to stand toe to toe with all teams in the league both home and away no matter their wealth this involves having players of ability already RM is sorting it.
In short I want us to stop giving up and make following Everton something to be proud of an exciting experience rather than a 90 minute stop off between pub and chippy.
If such things happen league positions, trophies, CL qualifications will look after themselves.
73 Posted 07/09/2013 at 10:35:42
You got nailed for writing garbage and got your knickers in a twist bumbling around with the usual diversionary crap the insults and keyboard warrior guff you continue now.
I've stated my support of Martinez umpteen times based on business interests I had in S Wales when he revived Swansea and I saw it first hand.
Blathering as though a huge tape worm is forcing it's way out your crack just shows you up as a complete buffoon.
Of course it would help if you just stopped making stuff up - there again what would you say?
Keep trying tough guy.
74 Posted 07/09/2013 at 11:16:04
Just go through that list of managers again and see how much time it took them to get things going their way.
There is no hidden agenda in comparing where we finish this season to last as RM has the same squad.
But where you don't add up is that if the last manager was so poor, and thus attaining a below par league position, why is it that you excuse RM this season to finish lower?
I don't know what you think David Moyes did at this club but where he did get Everton to finish was with everything you say he did not.
You need to remember the frustrations of losing and poor performance are part of every team in the land, and to suggest the lowest points of Moyes' time in charge as reflective of his tenure as a whole is not fooling anyone. If Martinez can make this team fight and go toe to toe as much as Moyes did then I'd be surprised.
We all want top 4, but those qualities you ask from RM to put into the team are already there and his hasn't once this season allowed them to shine.
To get those top 4 positions you need to beat three of Utd, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool... and the rest of the league. And without the money too. If Martinez gets 5th or 6th in the next 4 seasons I'll be dumbfounded.
75 Posted 07/09/2013 at 11:26:25
Essentially his mostly defensive mindset was enough over 5 or 6 years to provide a base for best of the rest. If ambitious clubs like Liverpool fell away our stability and frankly like of adventure was enough to let us slide into their space.
But not enough to meet challenges such as the old sky 4 grounds, big games in the cups and derby matches. I argue whenever anyone went toe to toe with us 8 out of 10 we would lose.
The league being bread and butter allowed games of less adventure our opportunity to grind our way to a respectable but ultimately "small mercies" position.
In sumary the best of the rest was not good enough for me particularly as the manner of the man I disliked from way back - probably because I had the inside track on the Rooney biz and his behaviour over his first contract was a glimpse into the future.
Some accept it - not me. It's like finding out the gardener does a bit more than mow the lawn with your missus shrugging your shoulders and saying at least he kept the roses tidy.
I'm not a passionless man
76 Posted 07/09/2013 at 11:23:01
Diversionary tactics ? The challenge was crystal clear, you were invited to give a few examples of where we will see this "improvement" you keep telling us about
Now if you would like to take up that challenge, I think I may be grown up enough to cope with your inteligent adult argument. . . .but if you are going to use your own diversionary tactics, then i'll go and fix the roof on the shed
77 Posted 07/09/2013 at 11:54:55
When Moyes took over, did we finish better than under the previous manager or worse?
78 Posted 07/09/2013 at 11:51:21
Fair enough, some of Moyes' methods drove me mad as well, but they were the methods that allowed Everton to have a record that you think shows a lack of ambition.
This is where I think you fall down, that Everton should be where Moyes had them as a given. This era of football doesn't allow that to be the case and simply Roberto giving it a go isn't going to add 10pts to the table.
I don't know how he's going to beat three of the monied teams, I really don't.
79 Posted 07/09/2013 at 11:59:39
How ever much you say you can't accept that reality it will still prevail.
80 Posted 07/09/2013 at 12:04:59
No developing the youngsters, that was the biggest myth of his tenure. Rodwell couldn't get a game. Barkley started the first game of the season at Blackburn, then it was 18 months before he started again, NEVILLE was seen as a better player!!
He was an Allardyce ( who got to a cup final, top 6 P.L. and last 16 in Europe ) at a big club. He was allowed run of the place by a weak chairman, whose only goal was to be in the division.
He is now a proven liar, who will fail with every resource available at the biggest club in the world. To me, he is a bluffer who has got lucky through family connections, and accident of birthplace.
81 Posted 07/09/2013 at 12:04:19
The lacks of goals is worrying, Jelavic...what's happened there? One thing stands out after three games, Fellaini and Osman didn't shift the ball forward quick enough. We don't have the option of Fellaini now and with Barry and McCarthy in I expect we'll see less of Osman.
Yes we need an end product but our philosophy now is possession football and I like it. We are a very decent team and I don't think we'll finish outside the top six.
82 Posted 07/09/2013 at 12:56:01
So what's so special about possession football? It's bloody boring ,if you ask me !
83 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:19:23
84 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:07:32
Boring football, is boring.
Be that "long ball" or "tippy tappy"
The best football I have seen was played by Brazil in 1970 World Cup, they were just bloody marvellous, also great were Argentina in 1978 and Holland too in that era and Everton in 1985
All of these sides could play the ball around, control play and make the opposition work bloody hard. They could also regain possession, either by tackling or excellent positional play
I do not recall Roberto stating that his aim was to have Everton play "possessional footbal". He has said that he wants a new exciting and unique style of play and that puts me in mind of the teams I mention here
I'm not expecting that to be permanently in place by the time we take on Chelsea, but if Roberto is to deliver it then it will need me to be patient and for his progress to be observable. So far I am encouraged by the very early signs mostly off the pitch, but some on it too
If he does deliver it, it will be well worth the wait
Success would be bloody nice too, but again if I know or suspect that it is on its way then I'm OK with the wait
85 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:13:41
Kevin I know your bitterness towards a man who's not even here anymore will continue to get the better of you but what family connections and accident of birthplace are you talking about? Are all men from Glasgow football managers or something? Did his dad get him the Man U job? Did he bluff his way into the Man U job past an entire board of directors whose stock market performance relies on the success of the club and a manager regarded as one of the greatest of all time? Some bluffing that. Maybe they're all wrong though and you're right Kevin.
86 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:26:33
87 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:35:40
To me this suggests Martinez has identified the areas of weakness in our team and has addressed them.
You wait Phil, you'll be drooling over our play in the coming weeks.
88 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:29:50
Am I alone in just requiring 'winning football'? And that is only achieved consistently by the ability to apply a variety of styles according to what you are faced with.
I totally agree that 'hoof ball' can be tedious but the use of a long, accurate pass that changes the area of attack can be most effective and is a technique applied by all the great sides in history.
But am I alone in failing to see the reasoning behind those who say we should sacrifice half-a-dozen places in the Prem in the cause of playing possession football?
89 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:45:05
92 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:36:16
What dogs bollocks you talk! Last season Moyes kept loyal to his favourites - it didn't matter how badly Heitinga Neville and Naismith played. He always picked them rather than giving the youngsters a chance. If some of our youngsters couldn't have performed better than the players iv'e mentioned above, well, they might aswell give up football as a career.
Take the Arsenal away game last season for example, Barkley started and played very well, then what did Moyes do the next game? Thats right, he dropped Barkley for the out of form Osman.
I really rated Moyes as our manager, but his failure to give youth a chance and stay loyal to his favourites is the thing that annoyed me the most
93 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:46:03
Totally agree with you regarding our football from the first half of the season. Often we put in 45 mins of excellent football, clearly outclassing the opposition but nor taking our chances. Sadly we lost or drew many of these games but I agree our play was the best we'd seen under Moyes.
However, we all saw the deficiencies of our team last season and that includes the manager, Norwich away last season summed it up for me. We dominated for 70 mins and were one up with twenty to go, you know the rest.
Martinez has changed the way we play already, we now keep the ball far better and yes I agree with you without a genuine goal threat it is frustrating and in your eyes boring.
We won't finish outside the top six, we're a very good team and with the signings we've made I expect our play to improve in the attacking third and with that the results will come.
94 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:46:55
Some clubs get one player coming through every generation and no-one says anything. We bring a few through and everyone thinks it's unacceptable. Martinez held McManaman back for years when if he'd played him earlier he might have saved them from relegation.
Contrary to what you might think though Kevin managers tend to know best about these things. It's not some miracle that Martinez is playing Barkley, everyone knows he's a good talent, he's been around the first team for ages and with the retirement of Neville, the injury to Gibson, and Fellaini's dropping back has allowed him to start.
95 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:51:35
You have only reinforced your blind loyalty to TGT – and made yourself look foolish in the process.
Remember now, it wasn't Moyes FC for the past 11 years, and you might be able to discuss footballing matters with a more balanced approach.
98 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:59:42
Convenient model you've got there isn't it. Good kid comes through the academy – nothing to do with Moyes. Lesser talented one comes through – it's all Moyes's fault for not giving them game time and developing them.
Mark, I agree that at times last season it would have been good to see some different players but in reality the only one would have been Barkley. Duffy's reputation has increased in his absence but in the few games Heitinga played he was a better shout than Duffy would have been. Duffy is even slower and it was the highline that caught out Heitinga, he would have had the same problem.
People say Neville played ahead of Barkley but they play different positions. It's convenient just to pick out the names you don't want on the starting line-up and demand for Barkley to replace them but what good would he be on the right wing if Mirallas was injured or playing defensive mid? I'll admit he could have come in a few more times for Osman but for most of the season Osman was playing well and when he wasn't everything was still going through him anyway. Martinez hasn't used Barkley in the deeper position yet either, neither did Hodgson.
99 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:04:21
102 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:12:50
106 Posted 07/09/2013 at 13:58:07
Rooney,Vic, Vaughany and Rodders all played when they were barely out of school, but for desperate luck with injuries, Vic,, JV and Rodders would have all played many more games.
Ross was introduced shortly after leaving school too and Moyes demonstrated he thought he was ready by playing him in high profile games towards the end of last season, anyone who saw him at the emirates knew this too. I find it astonishing that anyone gives Martinez any credit at all for Ross's development, he's only just got here ffs.
Every man and his dog knew this was Barklays break through year.
Moyes drove us all up the wall with his unshakeable belief that there is no substitute for experience, but there a few (very few) top flight managers who have blooded more 17 and 18 year olds. Lets not pretend that didnt happen.
Perhaps when Martinez puts an Evertonian shirt on one or two 17 and 18 year olds, comparisons can actually be made
109 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:14:16
Good article Lyndon, and I think we did well. What I see with Fellaini is he was a luxury player we couldnt afford. With Moyes, he was used offensively and he was great there. But that often made Jelavic look not that good, as Felli took all the space.
Now Martinez is there, he just does the holding midfield job well, and we could get somebody (like Barry), who does a similar job for a hell of a less lot money.
Everton aren't good enough to keep a 27.5 million holding midfielder?! We needed that money to improve other areas of the team, and I think he has. Barry is obviously not as good as Felli, but as a holding midfielder, I think he can do a similar job. Lukaku will improve the striking department, and McCarthy is something different than we have, as he has that pace and stamina, that box to box midfielder we are missing.
Overall, you have to see it as a good window.
110 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:08:01
How old is Barkley? 19? you expect Moyes to have given him a start 11 years ago? Same with Vic, currently 25?
I remember just a few seasons ago we had 6 teenagers on the field / bench (semi final against UTD?). What percentage is that of a team on match day?
Michael #543 "Martinez has changed the way we play already, we now keep the ball far better" Well Howard, Jags, Baines and Distin do, but they're not the ones we want to have possession unless they're in the opposition box,
111 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:08:46
Moyes even started Neville in the all important quarter final with Wigan, Gibson was left on the bench. There were many players Moyes could have tried in Neville's position over the course of the season - he could have given Junior more chances. Junior was excellent that pre-season, he just had a bad 45 minutes against Leeds in the League Cup, then Moyes wasn't willing to give him a chance after that. Moyes could've played Fellaini there, instead he left Fellaini ruining all our attacking play, playing in the advanced role which didn't suit him or our team. Heitinga was another player who could've played DM - he clearly wasn't up to playing CB.
Duffy played very well 3 seasons ago when he started a couple of games. Surely he deserved a chance of playing CB instead of Heitinga. I have lost count of how many points Heitinga cost us last season with his continual dire performances at CB
113 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:34:30
Surely you cannot deny he would always go with experience over youth, even if the experienced players were clearly out of form - Neville being a case in point.
114 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:28:30
116 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:08:46
Moyes even started Neville in the all important quarter final with Wigan, Gibson was left on the bench. There were many players Moyes could have tried in Neville's position over the course of the season - he could have given Junior more chances. Junior was excellent that pre-season, he just had a bad 45 minutes against Leeds in the League Cup, then Moyes wasn't willing to give him a chance after that. Moyes could've played Fellaini there, instead he left Fellaini ruining all our attacking play, playing in the advanced role which didn't suit him or our team. Heitinga was another player who could've played DM - he clearly wasn't up to playing CB.
Duffy played very well 3 seasons ago when he started a couple of games. Surely he deserved a chance of playing CB instead of Heitinga. I have lost count of how many points Heitinga cost us last season with his continual dire performances at CB
121 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:38:58
Didn't Heitinga win Player of the Season playing at CB whereas Moyes was constantly criticised for previously playing him as DM because he was crap there?
124 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:55:50
Wasn't Neville only out of form for the last season?
125 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:53:39
I'm not saying Heitinga is the best DM in the world, but surely he was worth a shout playing there considering how poor Neville was.
127 Posted 07/09/2013 at 14:53:16
I'm not blind to the fact at times we go back more than we did but the reason is to start again, to draw the opposition out. This style of play puts more emphasis on our creative players to produce, to beat a player and create. I don't know the stats but we've created chances in every match but haven't taken them.
If we take our chances then the opposition have to come out and attack us which will mean there will be more space to play in which will suit Barkley, Mirallas and Lukaku on the counter attack.
So far we've seen decent football but without the clinical finishing, it'll come.
133 Posted 07/09/2013 at 15:00:03
Junior had had a shocking time in the Legaue Cup (I've also mentioned Fellaini's part in this but that is another thread). He hasn't appeared under Martinez either. Would you really expect Moyes to use him in the biggest game of the season? Yes Neville messed up but the evidence up to that point showed that Neville had been doing a decent job in that role when called upon (our form when Gibson was injured early season) and Junior had bombed. In hindsight, it was the wrong call but, if there really was a problem with Gibson, was it really?
People can pick certain games out or certain players that they don't like and say 'why didn't x play here instead'. A long-term view (not as magical as Kevin's conceptions of time of course where Barkley should have been getting starts when he was 8) shows that a better than average number of young players got exposure to the first team at Everton under Moyes. Some where good enough to compete for a place in the team. Some weren't. Whether the pace of development was fast enough for some people is another question but to try and make out that Moyes developing youngsters was a myth is ridiculous.
Barkley is the prime example of this, Martinez hasn't turned him into the player he is now because of one pre-season. 11 years of development have gone into him and whether Moyes would have played him now or later in the season is splitting hairs on that sort of time frame. Like Rodwell, he would have got his chance in the first team. Of course you can always come back with the ridiculous retort 'he only played kids because of injuries'. Whether this is true or not (it isn't), he either played them or he didn't and you can't just make up that he didn't.
135 Posted 07/09/2013 at 15:08:12
Exactly the same can be said about last season, especially the first half when we were playing 'Martinez Style'
Mark #580, so you expect the manager to play a player who was our best player in the whoke team and playerd at CB (and in a position he played for his national team in the WC Fina), out of position and in a position in which he'd been criticised for playing him before because he was so bad?
Isn't that a no-win situation? Or at best suare pegs in round holes?
141 Posted 07/09/2013 at 15:28:15
145 Posted 07/09/2013 at 15:32:26
148 Posted 07/09/2013 at 15:45:27
151 Posted 07/09/2013 at 15:52:24
Certainly Ross has taken his chance to impress and has got an England cap on the back of it.
152 Posted 07/09/2013 at 16:01:59
Martinez has gushed enough over Barkley to make me think he see's him as a regular starter and an integral part of how we set up.
153 Posted 07/09/2013 at 15:57:07
Almost as desperate as claiming he was responsible for the "Swansea revolution" after spending two seasons as manager.
Talk about building someone up for a fall...
154 Posted 07/09/2013 at 16:29:33
155 Posted 07/09/2013 at 16:37:51
156 Posted 07/09/2013 at 17:21:13
Ross played very well against Norwich, but so he should, he's better than them.
I reckon his performance against Arsenals highly skilled midfielders at the Emirates was his best game, If he didnt know he could play at the very top level before that game, he did afterwards.
Hopefully all his best games are still to come and he will be wearing our shirt when he has them, but be of no doubt, Martinez has inherited a gem . . .and he knows it
157 Posted 07/09/2013 at 17:50:20
Just makes me wonder how the present manager would have used him and whether he might be tempted to bring him back-say in January-whilst City still owe us some of the fee.
158 Posted 07/09/2013 at 18:11:22
159 Posted 07/09/2013 at 20:07:46
This by no means should be seen as him being "The Devil Incarnate" in my eyes.
In 11 years he did loads that I:
liked
disliked
was frustrated by
was confused by
He certainly did give youngsters chances and a fair few of them, but he also repeatedly failed to see any of them progress beyond initial promise for me
The recent statement that he would do what was best for the player was him shooting himself in both feet
He'd let them leave Everton because they'd be better off elsewhere and by implication without him
Now at mufc he's the answer to their prayers (albeit, older players)
On the astronomical pay he was on at Everton, he was an extremely expensive self confessed "Mr Second-Best", permanently focussed myopically on the "glass ceiling"
So far, I personally prefer Roberto Martinez positive approach, the journey will be interesting and the leader charismatic
dm has a reputation for being a tough nut to crack
Roberto Martinez has one weapon that dm never displayed
Wit
160 Posted 08/09/2013 at 02:07:55
I would add another attribute...bollocks
161 Posted 08/09/2013 at 10:48:33
162 Posted 08/09/2013 at 10:56:39
Familiarity...........
163 Posted 08/09/2013 at 15:47:26
I'm sure that I've been clear in this thread and elsewhere that I don't see dm as a completely shit manager, because I don't.
Neither do I see Roberto as the messiah based solely upon what evidence I have so far.
One chose to leave and I dislike much about his behaviour and some of his work the final 18 months to 2 years to the present, but not all of it.
Roberto is our new manager and I've said that I like more about him now than before he arrived. He was not my stand out by head and shoulders preference as next manager (despite what one or two here have insinuated but offered not one single shred of evidence in support) and neither was his predecessor.
Roberto is receiving my support, I am enjoying his new approach and I hope that my approval continues to grow and that he has a long and successful managerial career of stylish successful Everton teams
As for DM? Well I hope that he makes a right bloody shambles of his "bigger club", they are fellow competitors after all. TBH within 2 years, I don't see them winning the League Cup 'cos it's too small, I could see them winning the FA Cup but most likely not, CL nope don't see that at all (I just don't think dm is savvy enough) so that leaves the PL and maybe that but probably not this year because he should be allowed a "fallow year" to fully takeover after SAF.
Roberto has a wider margin of error at Everton than DM at MUFC, but they both knew that when they signed up
164 Posted 09/09/2013 at 06:00:54
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
-sm.jpg)
1 Posted 06/09/2013 at 08:01:25
Fast Forward 50+ yrs and we have the same; Fellaini / Barry ... Collins / Stevens.
If we get the anywhere near the same standard of performance from Barry as we did from Denis, we won't do too bad.