Why Everton will not find a suitable buyer

Everton will be in the top 20 clubs by turnover in the world this year. If we played in any other league in the world we would be in top 4 earners - with all our poor facilities. Moyes & Kenwright have taken us from relegation candidates to top 7 regulars while those with more money flounder (relatively). There is a structure in place on which we can build.

The one tangible benefit of our history & location is a hidden wealth of support (a couple of years back nearly 100 000 people attended Goodison over a season) though as others have said they are relatively cash poor.

We have stopped the decline, we have begun to climb. Those clubs with money have had wages capped, though I think the increase in costs had reached a natural ceiling anyway. Where are the big transfers this close season?

There are a few small signs of the tide turning, we can only hope we continue to prosper by doing what we do well while rich clubs players bicker - Arsenal, Chelsea & City did so last season. One day we may be able to challenge though our natural position is likely to be forever limited by our location, as will Liverpool's.

Optimistic - yes. Lunacy - maybe. Entertainment next season - certainly.
I suspect a performance not unlike those of Spurs of old will unfold this season. Win 4 - 2, lose 5 -0

Liverpool may not be London or Manchester but it still has place in the world's best locations and is probably as well known as some of the great capital cities in the world. Just in case you were wondering it has a great university and not everyone of its citizens are signing on, certainly not every Everton fan is living on the breadline and it is a fallacy to think otherwise.

BK have to sell up or Everton FC will not only find themselves outside of the top 6 clubs but outside of the top 10 clubs in England and that is very difficult to stomach for fans who remember us being the top club in England - I mean club and not team.

I just want to point out one massively flawed part of this piece, which I have seen repeated quite often on these boards re; our corporate offering.

We have 11 corporate boxes, which cost £48k per season. One of them, as you correctly point out, often does not sell.

Villa (similar sized club & fanbase) have 99 executive boxes, and a 10 person box costs £22k. They also have lounges & restaurants, which are also sold out regularly, so you can see what the problem is here Alan.

We had a marquee in the Park End car park, and guess what - always sold out. What did they do with that I wonder?

Everton could easily double their corporate sales, if they offered the same facilities as the likes of Villa, or even some Championship clubs.

We cannot afford to think, or plan past one season to the next, so we are in limbo. The Council have had to just bail us out because the landlord of our training facility just went bust FFS!!!

This is incredible for an ever-present in the richest League in the world - in fact, it borders on madness, and to even try and present this Board as even half competent is sheer lunacy.

What Everton fans have told you they only want to move into a new ground in Walton?
I haven't heard that one before.

Liverpool is second only behind London in the amount of tourists UK cities can attract to them each year. We are miles ahead of Manchester and Birmingham. We are 3,000 beds short in the City center at weekends because its chockablock. The biggest cruise ships in the world have just started docking again at the Pier Head.Thousand of tourists from across the globe all coming for a glimpse of World's most famous and instantly recognisable water front on planet Earth.

Next year, we will have the Open golf back at Royal Liverpool, a few months after the most famous horse race in the world has been run at Aintree. The Beatles attractions still draw huge numbers to the city at all times of the year. Mate where do you live, FFS? Liverpool is absolutely buzzing at the moment. Who wouldn't want to come here?

As for you analysis on a buyer's return on investment, that is also flawed. Chelsea, Man City, PSG etc are not money-making exercises. The guys who own these clubs make such astronomical amounts of money away from football that it's sickening. The football clubs are an expensive hobby — that's all. If they win stuff and make money, fine... but they are just toys for the owners. The sooner you realise this, then you might wake up.

One day, there might be a billionaire who wants to buy Everton because this City is so world renowned and famous. £400M for a ground would be chicken-feed to these guys. The trouble is, BK won't sell — so it's all irrelevant.

Please don't slaughter my City again; we get enough of that jealous crap from Mancs. Liverpool is the Pool of Life. Don't forget that, mate.

The whole City is rocking and on the up, you won't be able to get a room this August bank holiday. Try and get a booking in a decent restaurant, or go to town and try it for yourself.

'And you will have to build it in the sky above Walton because our fans do not want to move and the council will not provide a decent site within the city boundaries'

"No businessman will ever buy Everton." Really? Well, thats probably true seeing that Kenwright set a sale figure around the £200million mark, I understand.

Cast your mind back to around the episode of the King's Dock. The fans who you say won't move out of Walton, voted by a massive majority to move to The King's Dock. That evil Liverpool City Council, who will give us nothing, did somersaults to present us with a purpose built, World Class Stadium at a World Class site on the Waterfront of a World Class City.

We had to contribute the massive sum of £30 million towards the cost and guess what happened to the Ring Fenced Money. Guess what happened to lend the club the £30 million, once it became clear the ring fenced money had disappeared!

I assume you mean by saying the parochial hordes will not watch the club anywhere else, is actually the opposition to the proposals to move to Kirkby. Al;l I can say topthat isthatnk the Gods we didn't end up in Green's or Tesco's carpark.

Businessmen bought LFC and, so far seem to have been content with their investment. They're not spending £400 miilion on a new stadium, they're doing up the resent ground.

So, by all means wish we don't get sold to some businessmen (like the one who owns Spurs and is a Billionaire) but I think the arguments you have put forward to say we will not find a buyer are, in my opinion, illogical.

Has made my blood boil over the years when I have heard anyone slag of the City I love.

Tony Marsh@046 - 'Liverpool is the Pool of Life' Classic TW quote !

The Council have been very flexible with the board regarding any possible site -its the board that cant make the thing work.

moving to your comment 'And the supposed Everton fan, Lord Grantchester, won't buy out the club, so why would anyone else'? Grantchester has been a proper fan-ask Dr France about him. He wont be involved while this board are in place and they wont sell to him. If he had the option I am confident that he would love to buy the club but without Bill K being involved in any shape or form.

Tony, you're the one talking the bollocks!

Here are some stone cold facts:

1 United States San Francisco 4.2 $62.3
44 United Kingdom London 13.9 $38.9
89 United Kingdom Birmingham 2.6 $27.8 1
90 United Kingdom Leeds 2.1 $27.5
95 United Kingdom Manchester 2.5 $26.6
101 United Kingdom Newcastle 1.4 $24.1
112 United Kingdom Liverpool 1.4 $20.8
116 Italy Naples 3.1 $17.1

The first number is position, second population per/million

The figures above represent GDP/Capita of each city Liverpool came 112th of 116 global cities, you can see that London came 44th per Capita is $38.9 nearly double Liverpool's.

FFS! Even the Geordies produce more wealth than us (what's up there?). We just about beat the Mafia infested shit hole of Naples.

This is a huge reason why many owners pass us over as Alan Smith has rightly stated.

It's all down to the money!

Although people like yourself always pop up with 3000 unfilled beds, the Beatles etc.

These 3000 bed spaces needed will probably be taken up by some multi national hotel chain who will pay the minimum wage to its staff and they in turn will not be able to go the game and support our club. That's the kind of city we live in. There are many many more plebs with wonga to spend in London than there are here and that's why we get stepped over.

The council gets all too little of this tourist money you mention and most of it drains away from the city.

There's two huge clubs in this city and in the modern era that's one two many.

Alan you're spot on with your analysis.

If the likes of Kenwright and McCartney et al came back to the city to live and work they might attract some of the much needed wealth into the city.

Good job our neighbours have fans all over the country and the world then isn't it, because they manage to survive as did Man City when they resided in Moss Side and Man U who are based in Salford, hardly a city awash with rich residents.

I wonder what City fans would have thought when they scraped past Gillingham in the play-offs Did they think oh well we were successful once but it is now our fate to compete in the lower reaches of the football league? Surely the same financials would apply to them as to any other club? I know they had the commonwealth games, but apart from the die hard support they had hardly any supporters from outside the city of Manchester but can now fill their stadium with ease.

As a lifelong Evertonian it is sad to see the excuses made for the worst performing chairman in the history of this great club, it is even sadder to see fans of the club so ready to give up the ghost and accept mediocrity dressed up as the realities of the modern world.

Sorry, but what has GDP/Capita got to do with buying football clubs?

Did the 90,000 Aussies who were singing Kop songs worry about those figures?

Why is Man Utd the most valuable club in the world, when Salford in one of the biggest shitholes on the planet.?

Why do Fulham only take 84 fans to any away game if their GDP/Capita is so high?

Leeds & Newcastle compared to Liverpool? - not even on the same radar for tourism.

What about Liverpool City Region with a population of 1.6m?

Have I missed something - or is a Scouse £20 note worth less than a Cockney £20 note?

Just today Liverpool has claimed the dubiuos honour of having 5 out of the 10 most deprived areas in the UK.

Parts of the Liverpool economy are booming. This is predominantly service sector driven resourced by (no disrespect) low skill low wage jobs. One aspect of the economy that is absolutely booming is the "black economy". Hence a great deal of the money changing hands through Liverpool's legendary nightlife just disappears into the ether.

No city will ever build a future on stag parties, hen dos, a horse race, 38 football matches and a Beatles memorabilia event.

On a different thread I spoke about players being attracted to our club when in competition with other parts of the UK, especially London. I spoke about an experience I had with a key client from Canada - whose remarks around the deprivation were extremely candid. Liverpool has lost its way Tony. Like our great club, it failed to adapt to the changing trading world of the 60s. It galls me to say it, but Manchester stole a march on us in terms of building a vision for the future.

Forget hoardes of people emerging from Lime Street on a Friday night dressed in stupid costumes - it's when hi-tech, hi skill businesses move here - that's when the tide is turning.

Judging by the calibre of Leighton Baines' passengers - I'm not expecting that soon.

I am sorry Tony - sometimes how we see things is not necessarily the reality - as much as you and I love our great city.

Location and economy matter.

The better the devil you know justification as per the OP without asking:

who put us in this debt?

who let the stadium get to this state?

is head in the sand stuff.

The more meat on the bone, positive or negative, the better - keep posting.

Regarding the OP I think Alan Smith you have a brass neck quoting Mansoor as a success to justify keeping the present mob.

Extrapolate the widely quoted BK asking price and we're valued at circa 180 million, doubtless Mansoor looked around the Prem thinking "big club with potential required - don't care a jot who it is".

Man City valued at circa 80 million.

Everton valued at circa 180 million.

Just on those figures it is not even a debate.

All the other stuff - Ground, debt etc is incidental to such people but simply MUST be reflected in the price.

Greed plain and simple is the source of our long term exclusion from the top table.

There are umpteen other things of which this board are guilty but given our advantages over the yo yo club Man City yet failing to attract such a benefactor tops the lot.

We are NOT for sale in any meaningful way that is why we have not been sold.

Like it or not, Liverpool is a world famous City with a great football tradition. There are Premier League clubs bought and sold in parts of the country that I wouldn't stay over night in – never mind live in. WBA, Aston Villa, Southampton... absolute toilet, Blackburn, Bolton, etc etc etc.

You're telling me we can't compete with these places? Wind you per Capita neck in and stop stabbing the City in the back.

Liverpool was once described as the New York of Europe. The city has History, Character, Beauty and a vibrancy that most who visit comment on. Some of the shit dumps with clubs being bought and sold can't lace our boots.

We could've been on the waterfront a few years back but Kenwright fucked up. Would you reckon any other city in this country could find a superior spot for a stadium than the Kings Dock was?

No chance, Lad.

Tony - a future on based Hen,Stag, Beatles nights is symptomatic of the way the City is run and is how it is viewed by the UK Business community and hence investors.

Will your 90,000 Aussies by season tickets?

"Leeds & Newcastle compared to Liverpool? - not even on the same radar for tourism."

Read my post again please. Tourism is one of our biggest industries and you're right we are a much greater tourism force than them, but they still have a greater GDP even without tourism, sad eh?

1.6m is Merseyside I think, the study said Liverpool but really meant Merseyside (of which we are the capital)

"Have I missed something - or is a Scouse �20 note worth less than a Cockney �20 note?"

Yes you've missed something, a cockney simply has more of those 㿀 notes in his pockets than us, but one for one they're the same value.

As someone "born and bred in very modest circumstances"
You haven't half forgot where you come from

"Forget hoardes of people emerging from Lime Street on a Friday night dressed in stupid costumes - it's when hi-tech, hi skill businesses move here - that's when the tide is turning."

You couldn't be more wrong I'm afraid. these planeloads/coachloads of Irish, Scottish, and Welsh and Scandinavians are exactly why there is massive potential from outside the City.

These are the perfect customer base, who go to a Premier League game, buy the merchandise, and have disposable income they want to spend over a couple of days.

They come to the City for a weekend- not a night out. I have met them, they are not a figure of someone's imagination.

IT jobs are great, but football is still a primarily working class game, even in London.

Those "passengers" you refer to, probably go to every away game, with thousands of other Evertonians, handing over their money without question.

I would rather have a club with this rabid type of supporter - Fulham will probably get around 8000 for a home game if they go down, and then they will be lucky to fill a coach with 30 seats at away games - and they have one of the wealthiest fanbases in the country!!

"Low skill low wage jobs"

"Black economy"

"The calibre of Leighton Baines passengers "

Looking down your nose a bit there

Why do you think millions of tourists travel here every year rather than, lets say Leeds? This city has more than "an airport and...a ferry".

I think this comment is ignorant and above all insulting to the city I have lived in all my life, this city is full of heritage, attractions in abundance and full of wonderful people, more so than any other city in this country.

Why do you think Liverpool was European Capital of Culture in 2008? Did they draw a name out of a hat? No, of course not?

Why is our Waterfront a UNESCO World Heritage Site? Did they run out of nominations? No they didn't.

If this city isn't a major city anymore, why did those Yanks buy the RS? Did they get a dart and throw it and see where it landed?

Why did all our foreign stars come here when they could have picked any major city, Amsterdam, London, Madrid? I'm sure they didn't come here because we have one airport and a ferry. There is more to this city than that.

"Will your 90,000 Aussies by season tickets?"

Of course not, but one of the first things any potential purchaser will look at is global fan base. Liverpool will rake in more revenue in from the likes of these Aussie's & the Far East, than City, Spurs, Arsenal, only Utd will surpass their figures. Liverpool receive over £30m a season from Warrior - we receive £3m from Kitblag!

Man Utd sell 5m pieces of merchandise overseas per season.

We receive a set figure for our shirt sales, so that's us fucked in that market before we start.

The fact is Robert, all these figures don't bear any correlation whatsoever to GDP/Capita, so I am at a loss why you think these figures are so relevant?

IMO- the biggest problems we (EFC have) is the higher profile of the reds, Bill Kenwright/present board and an antiquated dated stadium. I do wonder if City would have been taken over if still at Maine Road? Probably as they also have the large airport that Etihad wanted to start flying from.

Liverpool does have a thriving black economy (it's not alone in that) I referenced it to highlight the disconnect between Liverpool's booming night life (where the black economy predominates) and thelack of of future reinvestment emerging from these activities.

As for Leighton Baines' passengers - the overwhelming view expressed by fellow toffeeWebbers was they portrayed the city in a very poor light and reinforce stereotypical views held about Liverpool from people from outside the city. It was strecthing a point I agree - but there are skills issues within the city. Again, Liverpool is not balone in this.

Apologies if what I was saying came across as it did to you. That is the last thing it was meant to be - it was merely presenting my view on what I consider to be a more realsitic warts and all assessment of Liverpool. It's just an opinion.

Paul Gladwell - again did not provide the context there - apologies.

I was referring solely to social and environmental factors being more important than we give credit to when a player is looking to relocate to a football club - most especially when deliverating between a London club/EFC. By no means was I saying it was the be all and end all. The comment from my Canadian contact ( who has seen quite a bit of the world) was that some of the urban deprivation was some of the worst he had seen (in a western economic city)

http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=937

Patience as always is the order of the day for us Evertonians. As for the various issues that the City of Liverpool suffers from it still doesn't explain why a club less than a mile away seems to have no problems regarding those issues yet we have to believe that Everton FC is unattractive for the very same reasons. It's not down to the vast amounts of 'supporters' it has globally as that only accounts for a relatively small percentage of their total income.

The two biggest clubs in the country are in the worst parts of the Greater Manchester area, they have more crime & grinding poverty than anything Greater Merseyside has to offer.

Last time I checked we have one of the best histories and best followings of a football club in still one of the most populous regions in a country which is the 5th richest economy in the world, playing in the league that generates more money and is more popular than any other in the world, including Spain, Italy and Germany.

I seem to remember there are still only 3, yes 3 clubs who have won more league titles than us and 2 of them caught us up in the last 20 years. Yes, Liverpool isn't the richest of cities, but by no means could you say that there isn't wealth here and despite the doom and gloom it is finding its feet again after years of decline

In any case, as has been pointed out, the mega, mega rich people who are investing in football don't do it for profit. It doesn't matter even if Chelsea fans stumped up £10,000 each for the cheapest season ticket, Abramovich wouldn't get his money back in any case. That's not the gig now anyway.

The way football is going and the worldwide attraction it now is, what does it matter that County Road isn't Rodeo Drive? In less than 20 years every top flight club will have a billionaire owner. The Mansours and Abramovich won't be the exception, they will be the norm.

I think one thing we can all agree on is there are above national average levels of poverty in both Manchester and Liverpool. Also, like it or not, as Liverpool council slept Manchesters meant business, went for it and the results are there to see. Likewise for both Merseyside clubs in relation to United.

The fact that Man Utds board chose to aggressively harness the potential of the club and progress it whilst both Merseyside clubs effectively did fuck all has very little to do with how much cash each member of the public has in their wallet in comparison to other world cities or child poverty in the local area.

If a club show people, locally and then nationally that they mean business, they will come.

Everton havent managed to grow their fan base in the last 20 years as they have spent the majority of that time repeatedly slapping the existing one in the face.

Economics may be a factor, how much I wouldnt know, but its not the overwhelming reason the sale of Everton FC doesnt get anywhere.

The main reasons, from the bits we have gleaned over the years, appear to be price and the attached conditions of sale.

Also, upon buying it, how much will you have to shell to progress it?

Ultimately, one of the biggest and most historic clubs in England cannot be sold. It still has massive unharnessed potential and if we could have landed the Kings Dock it would have provided the adrenaline shot the club has needed for the last 20 years. If that scenario had been twinned with development on the pitch, the people would have come, as would have the investors.

There is something very, very dodgy going on at Everton and it needs unmasking.

It's a narrow-minded and insulting characterisation of Liverpool in general and Evertonians in particular. I would rather be a poor blue living in the region than a rich one living in London. Scratch that I would rather be a Rich Blue living on Merseyside.

Close to Salford but no cigar. Other side of the ship canal.

However, no-one is going to convince me that Liverpool has the economic power of Manchester, Birmingham or London. And our population is smaller and continuing to decline.

Any potential investor will take this into account above anything else. All they will want to do is get as many people as possible, into a modern corporate based ground, which haven't even got, for the maximum possible price. I don't want £800 seasons tickets and £8 sausage rolls.

I suggest we just accept it. Be proud of Goodison Park, the family atmosphere of the club and local connections (players and our bellend chairman). We can be succeful with a small committed squad and an extra £25M a year on transfers. We should be pushing this board to do that.

Here's another unpopular statement for you all to rip apart: Rooney and Rodwell coming homewould better than a non-Everton fan investor!

ps: Patrick Murphy: "Team less than a mile away seems to have no problems... not down to vast amounts of supporters".

The other year I was reading the worldwide number one shirt in terms of sale was Torres Liverpool; number two was Gerrard.

It stands to reason they would be paid 10 times more on all their sponship deals if they have ten times as many fans. That's why their turnover is £200M+ and ours is only £82M.

They're one of the biggest supported clubs in the world. That affects every deal they make. And is the reason nearly every game they play is televised. It will take Man City 30 years to build that fanbase

There are more people that can afford modern football in Manchester than Liverpool. A bigger business population and bigger general population, to try entice through the gates. It must have had an influence on Mansoor's decision. Especially as he had a ready-made stadium to put them in.

Do we want a Billionaire? Well, ideally yes.

Would you accept someone (or consortium) with a plan to refurbish the ground over the next decade, create commercial opportunity and invest 5-10 mil of their own money each season on the team?

Well keep dreaming...neither option will come to fruition as the club is not for sale.

The current board have stated the club is for sale and always has been. They have not put a single penny of their own money into the club (apart from to buy shares).

Although the first option would be a massively-huge improvement...the second option would be a massive improvement on the current status quo.

Any idea is an improvement at this stage.

A sale won't happen tho....we have a narcissist for a Chairman who will die whilst ruling Everton Football Club.

I don't want £800 season tickets....

There are three billionaires at the club, and our net spend is about £5M-10M a year.

My point is no-one will invest as there is no profit to make. The only clubs with foreign owners that have progressed are Chelsea and Man City with and they make massive losses.

We need a True Blue to suddenly inherit £1B and be willing to loose most of it.

If we get a consortium like you suggest all well and good but we will still finish 6th, 7th etc... Until someone buys West Ham, Aston Villa again, Newcastle, then we will be 8th, 9th and 10th.

Oligarchs tend to stay in London and every other large northern club is more useful than us if they have a site or ground to expand.

There's been one good chairman/buyout north of Birmingham. And there were good reasons why he choose Man City.

But the city is better than it was 10 or 20 years ago, and is definitely on the up. EFC is in better shape than it was 10 or so years ago, and is definitely on the up.

We have been in the 'Prem' every year since it was formed. Leeds haven't, nor Middlesbrough, nor Nottingham Forest, nor QPR etc. etc. We've had a good few Europa games, and 1 tilt at the CL. We've won a cup final, and lost one. We have proud, loyal supporters, who have never deserted the cause. We can attract players like Arteta, Fellaini, Heitinga (a World Cup finalist).

We've got our problems, and we may be unable to kick on from where we are now; but let's remember that where we are now, (6th place in the toughest league in the world) is no bad place to be. Perhaps we should be looking at modest spending, to consolidate our position, rather than dreaming of hundreds of millions to get from 6th to 4th.

A final sobering thought; my sister was a freelance theatre designer for many years. She tells me, she only had trouble getting her fees paid twice. One was Prince Edward and his company; the other was BK and his!

"The fact is Robert, all these figures don't bear any correlation whatsoever to GDP/Capita, so I am at a loss why you think these figures are so relevant?"

Ok Kevin, this is why and it's very easy to understand.

GDP/Capita tells the any prospective buyer how wealthy the area they are buying the club in is. If it has a high index value it means there's lots of companies locally feeding off and creating this wealth, if there are lots of companies (as well as well off ordinary folk), they will have no problems getting there 𧶀,000 a year corporate boxes filled with wealthy bankers and companies like Microsoft, Siemens etc.

And also they'll have smaller boxes for wealthy local companies (at EFC this is not the case and will never be the case, either for big corporate boxes or smaller ones).

Our corporate setup is woeful compared to the likes of the Gooners, Spurs, Chelski etc. Lot's of nice Juicy corporate boxes helps keep our ticket prices at a reasonable level and give the club funds to buy.

And as I've said like at Chelski and Arse if the folks in the stands are wealthy enough they'll pay 㿨+ per game and this is how most of those (if not all) billionaires think when they make cold business decisions.

The latest billionaire to buy a prem club last week thought Fulham (with their bulging trophy cabinet and history) was a better bet than either of our two mickey mouse clubs, that have never won anything or have any kind of fan base. Where's Fulham situated (is it where the money is)?

?

If we lived in a wealthy city we would have had a buyer by now.

Yes, there are lads that have had a poor upbringing or bad education but that does not give anyone on here the right to sit in judgement.

I would value 10 scousers above 1,000 Mancs, Londoners or Geordies any day of the week but to put the OP in context all the statistics about GDP and per capita wealth don't mean a thing as regards the Premier League.

The real money is in worldwide commercial activities including broadcasting and that is why Premier League clubs are so valuable. The Premier League is awash with money and opportunity so the ground and the fanbase while a consideration are not the motivating factors for a would be buyer.

Now if Billy bullshit (the best salesman EFC have) had any intention of selling up, he would be pushing "The 4th most successful club" in the history of the league, ramming Dixie's record down people's throats and reminding everyone that we are founder members of the Football League let alone a host of other selling points.

However, the truth is he is hocked out to his cronies and buying Everton is so complicated and expensive that it is easy for him to look for investors rather than "buyers" and milk the limelight while he can.

If offered at a sensible price, ANY club in the Premier League would be sold within 12 months, regardless of location.

Your assertion that there are no major businesses willing to take up more boxes, or Everton could not sell a much larger corporate offering is incredibly wide of the mark Robert.

There is a thriving business community in Merseyside - you make it sound like we are in the middle of the Scottish Highlands.

You only have to look at the rest of the North-West to see how many successful Premier League clubs we have had.

Swansea were nearly bust 10 years ago, look at the strides they have made, a real football & commercial hot bed there!

Sorry Robert, we haven't been sold for three reasons - an unwilling vendor, an unrealistic asking price & associated conditions of sale.

Absolutely nothing to do with location.

I didn't assert that we couldn't sell all our boxes if we are not successful. I was merely using some fact and sarcasm to describe our sales pitch to Mansoor when he's deciding between us and Man City, or any other subsequent buyer. And let's be clear: currently we cannot sell all our boxes and our business community is a lot smaller than Manchester's.

People have angrily had a go at me over the "not willing to move" comment in my OP. I apologise sincerely. However, the Kings Dock option had long passed by the time the sheikh was looking around, so it was a sarcastic reference to Destination Kirkby. A buyer looking at all the hassle with that proposal would have been thinking exactly that...

In that paragraph, I was talking as if an outsider weighing up a decision on whether to buy Man City or Everton. The economic benefits of Manchester are small but I think significant. As is the airport. Another major factor was the stadium and corporate facilities. Another factor was that the council could not even provide an adequate site. So, if Mansoor really wanted to buy Everton and was prepared to build a new ground, he couldn't anyway. The Reebok does not fit into the Goodison site.

I was going to say: a new owner could reclaim land in the Mersey in front of the Albert Dock, similar to the map in Dubai. But I thought the 'sky above Walton' was funnier. Didn't realises how sensitive some have become. As a scouser, I can take a joke; as an Evertonian I often have to.

As I believed I was talking to only other Everton fans, I thought I could be frank and honest. My belief is that we are all being blinkered down to new ownership street when in the short term we need to pushing this board for more.

When I suggested making a serious offer for Rooney a few weeks back, which would put us on the map, the majority jumped all over that. BK should be moving heaven and earth to find the cash to persuade him to come home. But, rather than push for that, we as fans get bogged down in nonsense – no-evidence-based accusation – about not being for sale.

For the record, I'm a major critic of this board; I think THEY should invest more. But to make Everton successful you have to be prepared to loose money. If you're prepared to loose money, you're probably a Russian resident of London, or part of the new billionaire, countryless jet-set that flit between Manaco, Paris, London, Dubai and New York.

If you want to use a consortium to buy out Kenwright and make a reasonable-sized investment to try and generate a profit, then you would not do any better than the current board in all probability. Ask Lerner, Henry, Ashley and Co.

Spurs will build a 60,000-seat stadium, charge a minimum £62 a game, fill 100 boxes paying double what our boxes are, and struggle to catch Arsenal or finish above Liverpool.

People, instead of criticising, should name the buyers that we've missed out on. I've just named three who are in worse position than us... and can think of loads more: Bates; Sullivan; Shinwatra; Birmingham's Hong Kong fella, Risdale. As far as I can see, Mansoor was the only realistic good buyer of Everton and he got a better offer. Maybe Lerner and Villa was a safer bet.

Question for everyone: If my arguments are flawed, why when DIC lost out on Liverpool, did they not turn to Everton?

IMHO They didn't turn to anyone, because no-one besides Man Utd in this country has the potential to exploit a fanbase the size of Liverpool's. And only Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd could match their matchday revenue should they get a new stadium.

ps: Harold, any space over there for a stadium? I've heard Wirral council are okay...

"Tony Marsh@046 - 'Liverpool is the Pool of Life' Classic TW quote !"

A Carl Gustav Jung quote actually.

Just walking around Albert Dock a couple of weeks ago I heard Italian, Spanish, Chinese and Russian languages spoken by tourists, and saw hordes on walking tours of the city.

I hear more English spoken here in Thailand than I did in 2 weeks in Liverpool.

What I do begrudge is them having sat on the club for 14 years, turned a net positive balance sheet into a negative one, as well as loading the club with debt. You see what a lot of people forget is the opportunity cost - whilst we've stagnated, other clubs have caught us up and surpassed us. These days of the TV money were the days to, allied with an investment strategy, really grow the club domestically and internationally.

If I had the money to buy the club my personal distaste to giving this lot a massive return would be a major roadblock for me.

In an interview with the Guardian in 2009, Mubarak said of the running of City: "This is telling a lot to the world about how we are. It is showing the world … the true essence of … what Abu Dhabi is about. There is almost a personification of the values we hold as Abu Dhabi, with the values of the club and the values we would like to stick to."

Nicholas McGeehan, UAE researcher for HRW, describes the country in the light of the recent trial as increasingly "a black hole" for many basic human rights: "In this situation, a Premier League club is being used as a branding vehicle to promote and effectively launder the reputation of a country perpetrating serial human rights abuses," he said. "That should be of concern to football supporters as well as human rights organisations."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/jul/30/manchester-city-human-rights-accusations

Getting new fans to come here has nothing to do with local economics. We probably have all the local fans we will ever have so we do need to spread the net far and wide. Comments like yours don't help.

Liverpool does have its problems but it is way ahead of all the other Cities outside of London in terms of things to do and see as well as the football.

Tony Marsh has inadvertently suggested it and Kevin Tulley also. I really think we can sell the club but I am afraid apart from the obvious work to be done and cash to be spent, the real work is a major rebranding exercise beyond the comprehension of True Blues. I mean by that the use and exploitation of our city name, a global brand in its own right and something LFC exploit and have lived off for years....

To attract a buyer and get this club recognized beyond football and beyond its history, we need to change our name to Liverpool City and let a new owner with money exploit and develop our club with all that it entails, Play in blue, tell the world who we are, what we have been, what we have achieved, and what we can achieve.

Tell the world about the players who have graced Goodison Park and make them aware that we are a serious player in this country and could be globally. I am afraid the little suburb of walton is not enough in my book to attract buyers with vision.

Apart from the idea in general, our friends across the park would hate it and can do nothing about it.

Liverpool City — The true blue original of football in Liverpool.

--------------------------------------

Alan,

I'm not sure you have any idea what you're on about..

To suggest that our current board can provide an extra 25mill a year for transfers is one eyed drivel..

Like it or not money is at the bottom of most of these ills, but there things have been changing this century. Massive investment has been made and is forthcoming with much promise. Peel has correctly identified an area with enormous potential and attraction - the Manchester/Liverpool corridor has everything needed to build the second capital of the UK - but there is much redevelopment work still to be done in Liverpool.

A young lad who worked with me in Manchester has moved to work for a big company in the city. He was asking me where he should live and if his car would be safe. My first reaction was how out of date his attitude was but then I tried to think of where he should live as he currently lives close to one of the seriously wealthy areas of South Manchester. I couldn't actually think of anywhere in the North end other than Formby, and Woolton/Allerton in the South but these aren't exactly celubrious compared to Hale/Wilmslow/Prestbury where even our players come to live! The docks seem to be the only new place over the last 40 years?

Disposable income figures are calculated for use by big companies and Liverpool's are poor - probably the poorest area in the UK. Big employers are needed but for that good education is paramount and political stability. Until high tech companies move in our best people will move.
What we get are employers who pay minimum wage/fast turnover in staff - but then they are everywhere else too.

Ever wondered why Portsmouth was a popular club for a while? Look at the disposable income figures, same with the likes of Leeds, Norwich, Cardiff and of course London - the best of all. Manchester has twice as many people earning twice as much disposable income as Liverpool region if I remember correctly. Manchester clubs are building high seat numbers to sell at a lower prices than London clubs due to these figures showing them that they cannot compete on price with London clubs. These are what underpin major purchases of football clubs.

The reason some of us go on about economics in a football forum is that money does indeed bring success. I think it has gone too far when a region that has been fanatical about football for more than a century is being forced out of the top because of lack of money, but that is what is happening to Liverpool region. Thanks to Peel, hopefully better times are coming as Liverpool is a superb location in which to live and work. No-one in their right mind could compare life on Merseyside/Manchester with the dreadful life most live in London. Sadly it might take another 20 years to repair the damage of the post war decline.

As regards Liverpool versus other cities. ... I believe this has only limited relevance. Manchester has grown its business quarter in recent decades. They are 20yrs ahead of us in this process.... but let's not get carried away with exaggeration. You could put all of Manchester's office space into one New York city-block and have room to spare. It is no great metropolis and holds nothing like the world trading status that we once held. The opening of the new panama canal and the new large container berths on the docks could radically increase our port's turnover and indeed change trading patterns dramatically. On top of that the developments known as Liverpool and Wirral waters could in one go help our city surpass anything achieved in any other British provincial city by some margin..... so things can massively change on that score.

However, it has to be remembered that there are clubs all over the country..... many in much smaller cities and towns who all nevertheless have many more boxes than us and they fill them. Just in the NW........ are: Burnley, Blackburn, Preston, Wigan all bigger and more affluent areas/clubs than ours? Of course not. There are even clubs in the conference league with more boxes than us. As far as general wealth of the region it should also be remembered that even at our lowest ebb in the 80s our clubs dominated everything, and while we do have many seriously deprived areas there are many very wealthy ones too. Even before 2000 the region boasted one of the highest proportions of households with 2 or more cars for instance. Liverpool city centre has bucked the national trend with growing sales figures yr on yr. New hotels are opening all the time and the city's architectural heritage comfortably outshines anything to be offered in Manchester or Brum...... by a wide margin. Compare skylines (and that's without Liverpool waters). Things change and we are certainly at a lower point on the redevelopment cycle than many other cities. .... but who's to say our potential isn't greater?

With greater vision and planning our club would've realised its potential in recent years. Failure to have done so has very little to do with any of the outside factors mentioned. .... just a woefully short-sighted and fundamentally flawed operating model.

The ask why DIC didn't buy us.

The most obvious reason why Mansoor, DIC, uncle Tom cobbley and all haven't (and won't buy us) doesn't even get a mention.

Just too much analysis and not enough thinking.

It would be more productive to demand more from the current owners, in the short term, than to go on about selling to a buyer that doesn't exist. Some if our owners are billionaires. I too want this board out, but its not happening any time soon.

Tom,

I used the Reebok because it was supperimposed onto the Goodison site, along with The Emirates one the proposed Kirkby ground. These images were shown in The Echo some years back. The Reebok was the smallest and still didn't fit.

I would like nothing better than to stay at Goodison.... a new buyer wouldn't! Therefore, to sell the club, I believe the council should provide us with a massive site near to the city centre (or Goodison?).

Why won't Peel link up with us for example? They could build the stadium. It's not a viable business opurtunity at this moment in time.

I agree with everything Thomas (#267) said. And totally agree with you about our history, architure, skyline of city etc. And while that is something to be immensely proud of, it is of no concern to a profit-making business.

You mention Burnley, Preston and others selling corporate boxes — at what price and volume? Also, Everton can not sell all theirs now. All I'm saying is... if Everton finish 1st and Arsenal finish 4th, Arsenal would have earned more money from their ground and boxes due to London prices.

No-one on this thread has explained how a football club could make more money in Liverpool, than in Birmingham, London or Manchester. I'd add Leeds and the Southeast to that list too.

No-one as explained a way to get a suitable ground that would be worth investing in. And extending the Bullens Road would cost millions and give give us the corporate facities of Villa... Wow!

What about the concourse space in the Main Stand, Upper Gwladys, Top Balcony? That must affect Chang sales....

Just build one on stilts above Walton, is the best idea. The Eagle's Nest it could be called.... or Pie in the Sky — like a billionaire wanting to buy us.

One major question you have to ask is regarding the motives of the people who own and invest in Premiership football, aside from purely financial reasons. As an aside I'd guess Bill's true motives for his ownership of Everton shares would make a more interesting read than most but that would be another article in itself.

You can't assume either that the world just carries on as normal and that you can project the future of Everton on that basis. Who'd have thought that the collapse of the Soviet Union would lead indirectly to Chelsea winning the Champ's League?

Without speculating on the variety of reasons why Abramovic bought Chelsea or Mansour City, I would personally hate to see Everton sold to robber capitalists or human rights abusers like these people. Those two clubs have sold their souls and there is no way back.

I would consider it real progress if someone came in and bought the club if only to wipe off the debt with the banks so that we didn't have to sell a player every year just to survive. I would also consider it progress if that new owner was to buy property around the club so that there could be an alternative option to increase revenue by gradually rebuilding stands... If only one stand every 5 years, it would be better than what will happen with the current board in control.

I don't buy into the idea that we need some filthy rich tycoon, just someone with a good working brain and a plan and... erm... someone with a bit of money.

We went a couple of windows without a single singing of value because of this. In the full tenure of this board we have sold to buy.

I was suggesting a consortium to invest 5-10 mil a season of their own money...this would then allow them to restructure the club commercially without the pressure of stagnation. In addition, a revamp over a decade of the Old Lady.

However, none of this will happen. The board will not sell. The Chairman will not sell.

Nothing anyone says will convince me that the surrounding area is to blame for us not being sold. It is the board's reluctance to sell.

The area never stopped us being sold in the past. In fact, no area, anywhere, has stopped a club being sold.

I can understand the rationale of our brand holding us back. But if LFC can be sold, not once but twice, this is ample proof that brand not area is more important.

However, it's all pie in the sky...this board will simply not sell.

A slow steady progression with Ideas on how to grow the club from a firm foundation.

Did Manchester United suddenly spring up from nowhere like City? They put long-term commercially viable plans into effect and worked from there.

Any progress, investment, fresh ideas will be a huge improvement on the current regime.

Like Moyes leaving has allowed a fresh breeze through the club....imagine what it would be like if we had a forward thinking board....

I sort of like that to be honest...it has a 'stick 2 fingers up to the RS' feel about it.

And would be a commercial success i'm sure.

Maybe our esteemed editors could conduct a poll to see what the general feeling would be....

Liverpool City....I like the sound of that...

Any businessman wants/needs a return on his capital and few people `stick` money in clubs just because they are supporters.

Any new investors would certainly want a measure of control commensurate with their level of shareholding and BK don`t play that game!

Where do we spend 5-10mil net each season without selling first?

Can you name a single time the board spent their own money on players?

Why do we need a Billionaire? A wealthy person or people with business nous and a plan would suffice. Or at least be an improvement?

Quite an assumption to make regarding only finishing 6th or 7th with more investment than we have previously had...we nearly finished 5th last season and that was with spending the Rodwell money. Imagine that money spend every season.

I wasn't suggesting 5-10 mil 'investment' as BK intends. I was suggesting the person (people) 'investing' 5-10 mil would be the new owners.

Although, I don't think we'll get new owners either tbh

Would I want the name changing of the beloved club iv'e supported all my life, even for a bit of financial gain? No way! Everton is our identity

I first visited Liverpool in 1968 and as a ten year old Everton supporter was pre disposed to love the city, which I did. In countless visits since I have nothing but wonderful memories. Over a year ago I visited with an elderly relative who hadn't been before. He was astonished that the city was so different from what he expected.Also, in a frightening emergency we were shown unbelievable kindness by a group of reds who new we were Evertonians.

I appreciate that anecdotal evidence doesn't attract investment but...if the world came to Liverpool they'd love it. So, it seems to me, that Liverpool needs to be taken to the world.

Now, finding a buyer for a football club in Belfast would really be a tough one.

Your comments on the city of Liverpool, its economy and people are ludicrous.
I was born in Everton, have lived and worked in London, Sheffield and New Zealand. For the past twenty years I've worked in Manchester. I have travelled round the world and seen cities great and not so great.

Liverpool is an amazingly attractive and historic city, blessed by nature, blessed in in its architecture, its fantastic culture and best of all, inhabited by warm and generous people (Bainsey's passengers are the exception that proves the rule!).

The hordes in Malaysia don't give a flying f**k about where the club they support is located. They will support a team which wins trophies, which these days means one which can out-spend the competition.

The Man City ground is located in an impoverished, very unappealing part of a very ordinary city. The Sheiks don't care, City's future acquired fan base won't care. Winning trophies will attract the new fans and their money.

I was disgusted some time back when I read a Liverpool Echo article spouting the same garbage about 'small city.' It's bollocks. The propaganda beamed out nightly by BBC Manchester has clearly worked on you and the Echo hack (whose name escapes me). Do some research. Look up the population figures.

Get out and see the world. Only then will you appreciate what a bloody marvellous city we live in. Come on Scousers! Be proud! Up and at 'em!

P.S Toffee Web, your US English spell check is driving me nuts! This might explain why 'defense' is written in so many articles on your website. British English please!

I have lived in

Do me a favour mate read Alan Smith 157. I love my city and my club and have been supporting both all my life.

In just highlighting reasons why non-Evertonian businessmen think there are more profitable options. I'm not slagging off the city as I'm only talking to fellow Evertonians — not outsiders.

MUFC have asked the Council to review its decision as it doesn't think that the legislation has been applied correctly.

Interesting; can we do the same for Goodison Park? ... have we got a supporters trust?

Are they the best people from Liverpool that left for something better?

And then criticise what they left behind?

Hypocricy of the highest order.

Who gives a fuck where you've lived? What's it got to do with anything?

"Get out and see the world"

I've been to 35 countries for various reasons, lived in Germany, Canada, Cyprus, Reading and London. Was born in Dovecot and live in Huyton now. Which has fuck all to do with any of my points.

The argument was about economics, ground and population. I'm sorry but I'm right. We're behind Manchester on all three. And the point is it's harder to make a profit without a ground, without selling as much corporate and without being able to charge the prices of the likes of Chelsea, Spurs etc... Loving our city doesn't change that.

And being honest about the commercial success of other cities compared to my own isn't slagging the city or the people.

To be so sensitive you must be a German? Or worse, are you kopite, they're crying hyper sensitive babies as well. You're even moaning about the spell check.

ps: "The hordes in Malaysia won't care were City's ground is located" spot on, I agree.

So the major advantage we have over other large cities — Three Graces, historic city, etc — won't matter will it.

The only thing investors will look at is stadium, fan base, potential corporate sales, and fan spending power.

If you mean 'exception to the rule' then fine, that's your opinion, but your exception doesn't prove anything.

I kinda liked the start of your post and then it kinda turns to shit when you discredit people (Baines's passenger's) and then continue to say 'Get out and see the world. Only then will you appreciate what a bloody marvellous city we live in.'

And considering (Baines's Passengers) are so below all of us here in ToffeeWeb Land, how do you suggest that they should carry out your advice?

Get a job?

You're only partly right with your figures, as fan match day & commercial only represent around 50% of our income, the rest is made up of TV money.

Yes, we are behind Manchester & London, but Liverpool FC can still keep up with their London rivals, and they haven't won a title for 23 years!

Try and watch the BBC documentary on Swansea City – nearly out of existence 12 years ago – now outspending us the transfer market, and they are in Europe next year.

It has only taken Man Utd 20 years to become the most valuable club in the world, so it's not impossible to imagine we could be on a par with Spurs in 10 years is it?

You under-estimate the power of a little success, and we are not a million miles away from Champions League football.

To say we cannot be sold, or made into a commercial success, is ridiculous. With investment, we could do it in 6 years.

If the city was Barcelona, they may go to a Barcelona game to see what all the hype is about. If the city is Manchester, they may go to an Utd game to see what all the hype is about. Why would you go to see Everton right now, unless you were an Everton fan?

We are light years away from making anything out of tourism. Utd already has a global brand before Ferguson took over. Even then, it took his success, allied with a proper board and commercial aggressiveness of the highest order, to really bring them to where they are now. It has taken Chelsea, what ten years using Abramovich's hundreds of millions to develop a global brand. Livepool are still living off a global brand and reputation earned almost thirty years ago.

No business man in his right mind would buy us in our current financial condition or with our lack of a global appeal, regardless of which city we are based in. It would cost too much, as the original piece has outlined. But then we wouldn't need to be bought out to make a go of things. Modest investment could lead to success on the pitch. Success on the pitch attracts investment. More investment leads to more success on the pitch. One feeds into the other.

The worst thing the current board is guilty of for me is that when Moyes had turned us into a top six club, they did nothing to attract the modest investment needed, either through putting their own money in or attracting it.

I wish we had a supporters trust that could buy our ground and maybe some shares. They could block the odd player sale and raise money to bring Rooney back. That for me would better than any billionaire investment.

Champions League games at Goodison Park with a local owner, local players, a Fans Trust representative on the board — now that would be a proper football club!

Since time immemorial it's been an ego trip usually with a local man made good but in recent years shady money from abroad has superceded the local man.

Unpalatable? of course - but it's the name of the game and arguing about revenue streams, marketing, brands etc is missing the entire point and frankly appears an indulgence for those who like talking about their own expertise in said fields.

Truly successful clubs (as we used to be) rely on benefactors - almost without exception it has NEVER changed. The idea success and being run as a proper business go hand in hand is a fallacy - perhaps Utd??? certainly the exception rather than the rule.

American buyers have had a tough time because they have tried to do just this - make money as a going concern as per sports franchises in the states. It is no wonder the Fenway group are rumoured to be wanting out of LFC global football business is the wild west compared to the protected franchises of sport in the USA.

Long term there's a slim chance of making a few bob selling it on and as a loss leader to advertise your air line that's fine, but as a going concern put your money into Mcdonalds franchises.

So we find a suitable buyer then will we?

In fact the person worth having is Lord Grantchester. If he indicated an interest to buy all the shares, he'd get the backing of everyone.

One thing he is not a fool,therefore at the current asking price for the club,don't hold your breath waiting for him to give Kenwright his 30 pieces of silver

Until this fundamental point is grasped by Evertonians and pressure put on the those involved to adjust terms it's all just hot air about nothing.

Meanwhile this years potential usurper to push us further down the pecking order is Fulham. Mathematicians can now extrapolate by season to predict a likely relegation year such is the regularity of other teams buy outs.

But who cares?

But as Barry says, who cares.

Did I read that right?
Mr Chairman is protecting us against the sharks by inflating the selling price ?

Where is this shark?

A realistic price is one that attracts buyers.......

I agree completely and if someone really wants to sell something they announce some indication of the price being sought. They then reduce it periodically until sold or withdrawn from sale as being not worthwhile selling at the prices being offered. As none of this has occurred with Everon these last however many years that a buyer has been sought then we can all draw our own conclusions!

The sticker price has to have some semblance of reality otherwise people turn away from the get-go.

It's far simpler - it's greed - they really do want these vast sums hence the secrecy, anger and avoidance of pertinent questioning.

The brazen words of Bill Kenwright should strengthen the resolve of every Evertonian to chase them;

“Well I’m speaking on behalf of Robert, Jon, Arthur and Philip; we’ve got the club, we own 75% of the Club".

Yes we know.

That's why it's safe to assume no-one is interested. Imagine if they were to do a quick 2-minute interview on Sky Sports News saying they wanted to buy Kenwright out. They would have 40,000 blues descending on Goodison to chase the current board out, quicker than you could say "24/7 search". He'd be in the weakest negotiating position of all time. He'd have no excuse not to sell.

So I don't believe it's the asking price. The same people who do are ones that are convinced we're a potential Man City. And bigger than West Ham, Newcastle, Villa or Spurs. Well they're worth £125M easy.

One comment on his thread argued that Mansour "wouldn't care about spending £400M on a stadium" so why argue over a mere £125M? You can't have it both ways? If you do not think we're worth £125M, don't come on here crying about how great we are and how much potential we have.

If I win £125M tomorrow on the Euromillions, I'll buy the club and carry on at work for my living. An Evertonian billionaire should just get on with buying it, and have a go.