Like many Blues on here, I am currently basking in our new positive football being played without fear of the opposition, and bringing our recent outstanding results.

Trying to put our start under Roberto Martinez into some sort of context got me thinking about our history. I started regular attendance at Goodison in the 1952 season, and like many of my generation have seen lots of changes.

What is happening now reminds of the time Shankly came to Liverpool in 1959. I believe there are many parallels with that time. They were definitely second best in the city; we were top dog with our ’School of Science’ reputation and NSNO motto, we had 1st Division status, while they were 2nd Division perennial promotion runners up and that year they were knocked out of the FA Cup by non-league Worcester City (before Shankly arrived). My Liverpool-supporting younger brother cried at the result; I was of course delighted, as the next best thing to a Blues win is always a Reds defeat.

Shankly started with three defeats, he famously promised the board that they would win a game before the season ended. They didn’t win promotion until his second season. When they regained 1st Division status, we were beginning to build a Championship winning side under Harry Catterick. We duly won the league, but Shankly stuck to his football principles, was good with the media and showed love and respect for the fans.

Although we had great times from mid ’60s to 1970, Shankly was building a successful dynasty founded on the famous ’Anfield Boot Room’ principles, whereas we failed to build on the Ball-Kendall-Harvey era and have been playing catch-up ever since apart from the glorious Kendall Mk 1 success of the mid-eighties, which was brought to a crashing halt by the post Heysel restrictions on our entry to European competition in 1986.

After Catterick retired through ill health in the early seventies, we had a succession of managers who promised much but delivered little. I exclude Howard Kendall and Joe Royle. In David Moyes we had a manager who stabilised us after we flirted with relegation more than once. However, he failed to build on the stability he created. After the Wigan result I was convinced he could take us no further, and Roberto was my first choice as his replacement.

But in Roberto Martinez I see the beginnings of a revolution in our playing style, ’sin miedo’ attitude on the pitch, media savvy press relations and deep respect for our club, its history and our outstanding fans. Much the way Shankly started to turn around Liverpool’s fortunes all those years ago, I think Roberto may be at the start of a similar journey.

Long may it continue because, like many of my generation on here, ’I am just loving’ our return to our ’School of Science’ traditions.

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Eric Myles
1 Posted 10/12/2013 at 14:47:20
Tony, surely your remember Shankly's teams being built around yard dogs and physicality whereas we were the antithesis and known as the School of Science because we played football, as someone recently described it "the Barcelona way, but before Barcelona did"...

So no. not a Shankleyesque revolution, more a Catterickesque revolution, or more appropriately a Matinezque revolution.

Thomas Lennon
2 Posted 10/12/2013 at 14:45:32
Was only thinking something similar a few days back after hearing quotes like 'we don't worry about the opposition, we let then worry about us'.

There is something intangible about the way the team just suddenly believe. The mirror image of what is happening down the M62. I keep expecting us to have a stinker, concede 3 or 4 against the more technical teams but - well we saw what happened. It is so simple it seems too simple - but that is what Shankly (and Clough) used to do too.

Eugene Ruane
3 Posted 10/12/2013 at 14:59:22
Good piece Tony.

I remember not long after he retired listening to him on radio Merseyside.

One thing I remember distinctly is him saying you need to be able to communicate with the people of the city, you have to have the supporters 100% WITH you.

He said many people had difficulty with Scousers because they're not big on being told what to do and they can be "Ayyyyy FORTHRIGHT and ayyyyyy ABRASIVE and ayyyy they don't ayyyy MINCE THEIR WORDS!"

He added but if the RIGHT person talks to the supporters, the RIGHT way, there is nothing that can't be achieved...NOTHING

He then added "You name a task that needs 20 people to complete...let's say building a wall. And you're going to compete against me. You can pick your team of 20 from anywhere, I'll pick mine from this city... and I'm telling you, we'll win, you won't beat us"

Harold Matthews
4 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:18:51
Luv it Eugene. Luv it mate .Ooh. Get in there.
Kevin Tully
5 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:17:03
I truly believe Martinez has the personality and charisma required to build something special here. Maybe that's not something you would immediately want from a football manager, but I think every great manager has those traits in abundance.

It's about making good players great, and I only had to see Jagielka galloping down the wing at the Emirates to realise how different Martinez is. If we were playing decent football and sitting in 8th/9th I don't think many would complain, but to hear Everton and the title being mentioned in the same sentence has me giddy with excitement. I am literally like a kid on Christmas morning.

When some argued that £50k a week International footballers couldn't learn to pass a ball, I just laughed to myself. We have just passed Arsenal off the park on their own ground, after 15 games in charge! - I shudder to think what this man can achieve after a couple of seasons.

Forget the loans, he will take average players, give them a huge confidence boost, and make them shine in a blue shirt.

You won't be able to get a ticket for Goodison in a few weeks, that's for sure.

Mike Doyle
6 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:28:11
Like Eric (371), my recollection of (the later years of) the Shankly revolution was of a physical side ever keen to play the direct long ball to "Big Tosh" (and I suspect their possession stats weren't that impressive).

As discussed on one of the other links yesterday, the Martinez philosophy and approach seems closer to Dave Brailsford's British Cycling revolution than anything I've seen in British football.

Jon Ferguson
7 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:35:06
I'm too young to remember Shankley, but I do feel there is a revolution afoot. Martinez has convinced the players that they can beat anyone. If you are convinced you are going to win before you start that's half the battle won. Conviction and belief scare the opposition, and you never know you are beaten.

I'm so excited to see who Martinez brings in over the next few years. He's convinced me that we will win trophies again!

Andy Boyer
8 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:28:04
Thomas @374

I have always said that Brian Clough was possibly the best manager we've seen from this country, he took a team of players that in the main had decent ability and moulded them into a team, a single unit that you couldn't stop and I see something similar happening to us.

Yes, it's more refined and certainly more cultured, the ability levels of theplayers is higher also but the manager is the lynchpin of it all, you can see that Roberto simply believes that we will win every game we play, that we have nothing to fear anymore, he's like the footballing version of Obi Wan Kenobi.

What is happening down the road illustrates that the mentality of the man in carge affects all, Roberto is positive and thoughtful, he has a plan a through to a plan z and he most importantly has one goal, success and glory above safety and mediocrity.

He has asked that we play without fear and that we are doing, typified by Ross Barkley who is looking more and more like the real deal under Martinez, an arm around the shoulders and a bit of belief can work wonders can't it.....


Michael Kenrick
9 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:43:22
I think to focus on footballing style would be missing the point of Tony's post.

It's a nice idea to think Roberto is building something at Everton (incredibly quickly by all accounts) that could transform us for years to come... but that makes me think Tony's post is way too premature: can't we actually watch it develop without this perennial need to project into the future? Or to parallel it to someone from the ancient past?

Carpe Diem! Enjoy what we have now... look no further ahead than the next game.

It's called 'living in the present'.

Eric Myles
10 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:38:50
Mike, my recollections are from earlier than the Toshack decade, I'm refering to "YadDog Yeats", Smith, Lawler and St John from the 60's foundations of Shankley who wouldkick anyhting in sight, bar the ball.
Graham Mockford
11 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:55:03
Michael #388

Very wise words, we have had a very good fortnight but I think some are getting ahead of themselves. Let's start talking about a revolution when there is silverware in the trophy room, that will take time and probably some patience. In the meantime we can all enjoy the football.

Albert Crocker
12 Posted 10/12/2013 at 15:54:55
Eugene 377.

Can I be the only person left on earth who remembers one of Shankley's glossed over quotes?

I think the question at the time was where St John might be best emloyed and many Koppites were letting their views be known.

Shankley's reply was that he wasn't going to let his team be selected by "A bunch of dockers and railway clerks".

So much for a man of this city. But nevertheless I have to admit that with that Ayreshire accent, charisma and his ability to have the press drooling over his every word he did a magnificent PR job for the darkside.

Chris Leyland
13 Posted 10/12/2013 at 16:03:51
Michael K , I like the idea of 'living in the present' but you have to admit that we do spend a lot of time on this site discussing the past, in particular our most recent former manager and what he did and didn't do in comparison to the current incumbent.

Do I take it form your post that you are adopting a new editorial style and that ToffeeWeb will be looking forward rather than back or will we still be looking back to the more recent past?

Julian Wait
14 Posted 10/12/2013 at 16:07:00
Regardless of the intent I think the analogy is weak (Everton are not in a lower division and didn't we finish above Liverpool recently?), and I don't like ever comparing myself to them over the park.

I think the stronger comparison is Wenger. Arsenal were a decent side before he came along but he has created a legacy with some very good football being played (Viera-Bergkamp-Henry anyone?).

That's what we need here, to create a new legacy, and to consign the 80's to history as one of the times we were dominant, not just the last time we were dominant.


Iain Love
15 Posted 10/12/2013 at 16:08:08
Shankley was the media darling, Paisley was the man.
Martinez has given me some belief and hope for the future, I can't think of anything he's done wrong since he's been here, and long may that continue.
But he needs financial backing from the board, and that is where my trepidation lies.
Thomas Lennon
16 Posted 10/12/2013 at 16:07:28
I agree Michael - but we are allowed our dreams.

I am worried about the next game all right, players beginning to get suspensions, resurgent under a new manager applies to them too. We have all been here many times. Lets see where we are in the New Year.

Ray Roche
17 Posted 10/12/2013 at 16:21:47
Tony has written a thought and memory provoking piece. I take it by calling it a "Shanklyesque Revolution" he means starting a footballing dynasty, Martinez laying the foundations as to how we will play and progress for the future, which is something Shankly did across the park. The oft quoted Boot Room crap was one example but it worked for them until, I think, Souness came and torpedoed the ship. I seem to remember him saying that, when they bought a new player, that player would sit in the reserves until he knew the way the RS played because the reserves played a mirror image of the first team, and when a right back was injured, the reserve right back stepped up, none of this swapping players around to accommodate the best player available, whether he was a right back or not. George Green has said that the young 'uns were knocking the ball about against Brighton, it sounds like we have already started in the Martinez Way.

I just wish Catterick had been as media savvy as Shankly was, maybe then we'd have more TV recordings to drool over.

Ian Burns
18 Posted 10/12/2013 at 17:18:04
I firmly agree with Michael in that we have to live in the present and stop drooling over the future.

However, the past fortnight has allowed us to get out of jail and breathe the fresh air and it is intoxicating!

The next 6 or 7 games are going to tell us a great deal but in the meantime, I will continue to have my sweet dreams because they are made of this!

Norman Merrill
19 Posted 10/12/2013 at 16:36:58
I met Bill Shankly once it was at the Marine FC, club, & it was in honour of Ray Clemence. I was introduced to Shanks by Ray Kennedy, who I knew thru business.

On shaking hands, Shanks said who do you support son? I proudly said "EVERTON", he quickly replied, "Don't worry son we've all got our problems".

He was very proud of being involved on Merseyside; he told some great stories, of players from years gone by, and some I could not repeat on here.

Raymond Fox
20 Posted 10/12/2013 at 17:47:36
Tony's main point is that hopefully Roberto is starting a resurgence in our fortunes which will enable us to actually win something again after all this time.

I think he's right, if anyone can in our present financial state its this guy.

Mike McLean
21 Posted 10/12/2013 at 18:04:29
Shankly was a media natural, like Mr Martinez. In those days, however, the eyes of the world were on the city of Liverpool like they never had been nor ever will be again thanks to a beat combo some of you may recall. Thus, Shankly's ability with the press had a magnified effect.

As to a "revolution", who knows? Silverware first; talk of revolutions later.

Barry Rathbone
22 Posted 10/12/2013 at 17:33:01
Shanks "let them worry about us ..." philosophy is what it's about, if you read Martinez comments he says it time after time in various guises - something this club has lacked since Alan Ball.

With due respect to previous legends we've never had a Shanks and it's festered, a few years ago I realised such a character would not just be nice but absolutely essential.

There is a generation of our own who really don't know Everton their ideas are based upon failure and only a leader of courage and charisma doing what Martinez is doing right now can change it.

I have no doubt he can be our shanks it's just whether we can fend off the monied elite during the annual managerial merry go round.

(bites finger nails)

Eugene Ruane
23 Posted 10/12/2013 at 18:16:22
Albert (396) - Jesus, I never heard that.

When was that?

Sounds like he learned the error of his ways and it was lucky (for him) that it was (apparently) not taken to heart and forgotten.

Today he'd be goosed.

Now he'd have to spend two weeks apologising to 'The Spirit' and he would never get the supporters back 'on side'.

Still, as much as I loathed him at the time, he was (philosophically) a socialist and was a big fan of James Cagney so I couldn't keep the hate going after he'd retired.

Plus after he retired and they fucked him off out of Melwood, he was welcomed by the staff at Bellefield.

Something I've used for 30 years as a stick to beat red mates whenever his name is mentioned.

ie: "Yeah yeah Shanks was God, well remember, youze fucked God off sharpish when you didn't need him no more. The man who built your wonderful club spent his last days having tea and biscuits with the training staff at Everton. You'll never walk alone!? You must be FUCKING joking. The man died heartbroken....HEARTbroken!!"

Etc (I can go on in this vein for hours)

Dave Lynch
24 Posted 10/12/2013 at 18:38:03
There will be no dynasty built while BK is at the helm.

Dynasty's these days are built with mega rich forgien owners, the rest of us don't stand a chance, the odd piece of silverware wouldn't go amiss but I fear that's all we can expect until BB jumps ship.

Carl Sanderson
25 Posted 10/12/2013 at 18:46:55
Albert 396:

And Uncle Bob Paisley said something similar a few years later, something along the lines of, "they're all on the dole anyway".

Brian Waring
26 Posted 10/12/2013 at 18:55:14
Spot on Dave.
James Flynn
27 Posted 10/12/2013 at 18:28:56
Michael (388) - Good stuff.

Liam Young
28 Posted 10/12/2013 at 19:10:13
I think we must see this as a new revolution, our history is very important to us, but football has changed dramatically in the last 20 years. More so in England because of the foreign influences coming into our game more and more.

Martinez has adopted a very Catalan mentality of attacking football. Keep the ball on the ground and keep possession at all costs. I don't think it is about comparing with past teams, they were great in their own right, in a different climate of football. Moyes stabilised our club, and now, Martinez is modernising our football standards.

A new generation is born, the key to all of this, is to finish as high up as we can, gain as much money for it, and try to hold onto our loan players. Barry, I think, will be an easy one with his contract. But what about Lukaku and Deulofeu?

Lukaku will possibly go for a very large fee, and Deulofeu could maybe come on a second season loan. But what an amazing future, it is a pleasure watching our team now. Well done Blues, and long may it continue. New Everton, enjoy!

Trevor Lynes
29 Posted 10/12/2013 at 19:22:38
I remember Shankley well and he built his team without the money that the present managers are supported with. He had no foreign players and as an Evertonian through and through I envied the Shankley conveyor belt that was continued by Paisley. I deplored our board and managers dismantling our successful team of the early 60's and bringing in work horses. Even Catterick emptied out the class players that John Carey signed and Carey managed in the same way that Martinez is doing but was fired for finishing 4th. I believe that Carey had the original vision of playing entertaining football which delighted the fans and Martinez is the 2nd manager we have had that insists on playing entertaining football.
I saw Catterick as a player and he was pretty poor he got rid of Vernon, Collins and Young too soon for my money and replaced them with water carriers by comparison.

Talk of Liverpool being physical is a joke, every side was physical including us. Goal keepers were not protected like they are today, tackling was much harder and there was no pundits watching every move in slow motion.
I am not a blind bigot and evertonians who just hate Liverpool are just as bad as Liverpool fans who hate everton. I just want our two city teams to be back at the top above the real media darlings who are Manchester Utd and the London clubs.

Liverpool won five European championships with British players and no other club has done that. I want us to aspire to that and get back ahead of the Manchester and London teams.
When Liverpool and Everton ruled, the London clubs apart from Arsenal always lost away matches at Goodison and Anfield.

David Hallwood
30 Posted 10/12/2013 at 19:48:02
Oh go on then I'll start it.....No one's using the C word; straw poll time- what's the chances of us winning the Prem?
Peter Lee
31 Posted 10/12/2013 at 20:22:41
City will win it but if pushed you’d say that there are 4 teams with the ability. MUFC, AFC, CFC and COYB.

So 4/1 then.

Barry Rathbone
32 Posted 10/12/2013 at 20:32:41
David as it stands the 2 best footballing sides in the Prem are us and Arsenal if the blue shirts were swapped for ManU shirts everyone would have us as favorites for the title.

It's just recent history that makes everyone wary of shouting it from the rooftops - but make no mistake we are fucking brilliant at the moment.

Mick Davies
33 Posted 10/12/2013 at 20:20:24
Eric, I think you misunderstood the analogy; Shanks built a "bastion of invincibility" with his positive attitude, not footballing ethos. The game was different then, a good tackle was leaving an opponent in traction and pitches were more like WW1 re-enactment fields.

I can see a Shanklyesque belief which has transcended through the whole club and although it's still early days, the Martinez positivity is producing displays from players who previously seemed incapable of reaching the present level. Liam Young sums it up as a 'Revolution' and its been a very thorough one; it's involved the whole club and, most importantly, has infected us supporters like no other managerial change in our history.

Mark Taylor
34 Posted 10/12/2013 at 22:33:07
I'm as excited as anyone about the results and even more, the way we are playing at the moment, but we will have a long, long wait before we can know whether the Martinez era is as successful as Shankley's, Catterick's, Kendalls or even Moyes'.

Maybe I'm a bucket half full realist but I'd settle for Moyes' PL results, but achieved with more panache and maybe a cup win or two. That seems realistic under the current board and owners. Anthing better than that will have RM down as ultimate EFC legend.

David Ellis
35 Posted 11/12/2013 at 06:55:27
I would love it if Martinez can build a legacy like Shankly did. However, the more likely analogy is Bobby Robson at Ipswich in the 70s. Built a great side at a club that had less financial clout than its competitors. Won a couple of cups. Came second in the league. And then all their best players joined Utd and Arsenal and the manager went on to manage England (when that was considered the top job in football). A great few years and no lasting legacy.

Ultimately Derby and Forest ended up back at square one after a few good years (and trophies) with Clough. Shankly was different in that he put Liverpool on a different level to where they were before and they have stayed there. It also helped that Paisley his successor was even more successful, but no coincidence as he was groomed by Shankly.

Although Everton are a much bigger club than Ipswich we have to somehow match our competitors off the field for long enough for us to make it sustainable, eventually continual success will lead to continual revenue, but its keeping it together long enough that is even harder than being successful in the first place.

In Shankly's day the gap between Liverpool and the top teams was much narrower (in terms of revenue). Man Utd has what - 5 or 6 times as much revenue as we have? A Clough or Robson like comparison would be unbelievable; but to repeat what Shankly did would be miraculous,

Paul Andrews
36 Posted 11/12/2013 at 08:28:19
Mark Taylor,

" ........era as successful as even Moyes"
What success would that be Mark?

Mark Taylor
37 Posted 11/12/2013 at 08:55:15
Paul, his PL finishing record, especially the last 7 seasons.

If RM beats that, assuming we have the same ownership and financial position, he will have done well.

Paul Andrews
38 Posted 11/12/2013 at 08:59:41

I don't think Roberto will consider 7th position as successful.

Mark Taylor
39 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:26:42
The average finish for the last seven seasons is 6th. Much as I applaud RM's positivity, I remain of the view that to beat that for a sustained period (not just a one off season) will be a good outcome assuming an unchanged board/ownership/financial position.

What are your targets for him then, if you were to judge him a success (and/or what do you think he would judge a success for PL finishes)?

Mark Taylor
40 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:34:39
Correction, to match that record of 6th, not beat it, would be a good outcome, especially if he could win a cup and/or have us playing with a bit more panache.

Paul Andrews
41 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:32:44
Moyes finished 6th or better for five of the eleven seasons he was manager and 7th or lower for the other six seasons,so his average over the piece is lower than 7th.
I would expect Roberto to better that comfortably.
Paul Andrews
42 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:36:30

You can say with 100% certainty he will have us playing with more panache.

Ray Roche
43 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:35:40
Paul, I would like us to win things as much as you would, but to be realistic, the points Mark is making are quite sound. With the financial clout that City, Utd, the RS, Arsenal and Chelsea, as well as Spurs have, it will be difficult for anyone, Martinez included, to improve on Moyes finishing places in the Prem, but if we did equal a 6th place finish, with the Martinez style it would be a vast improvement for those actually watching the game.

OK, we are playing great at the moment and getting results at the top clubs, but it is still early days yet and when teams play a more defensive game against us it will be more difficult to knock the ball around in the final third.

Paul Andrews
44 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:46:40
I disagree Ray; more importantly, so does Roberto.
Ian Burns
45 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:39:37
Eugene - 437 - that was a fascinating post - never knew that Shanks ended up taking tea at Bellefield. You learn something every day on this TW Website, I've even been able to correct my mis-spelling of many swear words!

My only problem with Shanks (apart from him being a Red) and for that matter Cloughie was they would sometimes make soundbites for the sake of having to say something - not our RM - media savvy is this boy! Let the revolution begin - er or has it already begun?

Ray Roche
46 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:59:17
So, Paul, you think that there is little difference in the amount of money clubs have?

I think Martinez has done a great job in serving us free flowing, attacking football, light years away from Moyes trademark fare, but I still think, regardless of what Martinez or anyone else says, that the ability to just go out and buy the best players in the world makes a difference and makes it more difficult to compete with. How did City win the league....? Er...that's right, they bought it.

I desperately want Martinez to do great things here and he's started by making us exciting to watch and to garner points at places we've never managed for years. Now comes the hard part, changing us into winners.

Mark Taylor
47 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:47:26

No question about panache, but I think we need some realism here otherwise we risk consigning RM to a near impossible task. I was talking about the last seven seasons, when Moyes could be said to have truly established his team and saved us from the debacle that was the latter 90's, early 2000's. That average finish was just a little over 6th, during 7 whole seasons. RM is inheriting a far better team and record than Moyes did so I think it reasonable to compare him to these last 7 seasons.

Why do I think that will be hard to beat? Pure and simply, money. Take a look at the PL turnover figures. Forget about positions in the turnover league, just look at the absolutely massive gap between 6th highest turnover (Spurs) and the 7th (Newcastle). The former is over 50% higher. That is a massive gap, when money correlates so closely to success.It creates a virtual closed shop.

From 7th down, the bunching is much closer. We are very similar to Newcastle and Villa. They are our benchmarks. Over the same 7 year period, Villa's average position was 10th, Newcastle's was 12th. If nothing else, that should make for sobering reading.

I think we need to be careful that, while welcoming RM's optimism and belief, we do not fool ourselves into setting unreasonable expecations. My concern is that in the somewhat breathless attempts being made by some to rubbish Moyes' record, we are setting RM up to fail.I think 6th or 7th with a cup win and good football is an outcome I'd take right now. I'd like more, but what is holding this club back is less the manager, more the ownership.

Adam Luszniak
48 Posted 11/12/2013 at 09:48:42
What a fantastic argument to be having as a blue. Regardless of view point, it's great to read and be infected by the positivity around at the moment.

I have been a blue because of my dad my whole life, but have only been following closely for the last 4 or so. All I have ever known is Moyes. Like many I was worried when he left, and worried when Martinez succeeded him. I have had to eat my hat several times over with regards to the latter, and what a delicious hat it has been! For me, Martinez has effected a revolution compared to what i'm used to. I'm not old enough to remember Shankly, so I cannot comment on the comparison, but it certainly seems like a massive shift to me.

Of course we have to give the man time, but if Martinez believes we can get CL, then we can. One thing is for sure, he has put us in a decent spot to achieve it so far. I don't think we can win the league, and I think this comes down to pure squad size. Those around us can rotate and we cannot. The upcoming game is a prime example, with McCarthy suspended, our midfield is not what it was. (Having said that, we will still win that game.) We only need a few more suspensions or injuries and I think we will drop down the table.

Paul Andrews
49 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:06:57

What was the financial difference when we finished 4th?

Ray Roche
50 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:13:27
Paul, when we finished fourth, 16 points off third, we had a negative goal difference. That season was a bit of a fluke in my opinion, with a number of clubs underachieving, City finished eighth. Two years later Thaksin Shinawatra bought them and they spent £21m on Shaun Wright Philips. Money means nothing?. Don't be silly.
Paul Andrews
51 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:23:11
Who said money means nothing Ray?
Not sure if that is at me?

So to use your logic... we can fluke a 4th-place finish with a negative goal difference when being managed by a defensive-minded manager, but are unlikely to better a 6th or 7th finish when managed by a tactically aware attack-minded innovative manager?

Kevin Tully
52 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:13:16
I look at Liverpool and Man Utd, and apart from one or two world class players, they really are nothing special. Even Chelsea can't make 80m worth of striking talent put the ball into the net. City have great individuals, but are pretty average away from home. Spurs haven't gelled at all this season, and we are certainly a match for them. 100m hasn't made a massive difference (yet), they were playing better football under Harry.

We have a team full of Internationals, and a progressive young manager full of new ideas. We can bridge the financial gap, especially if the likes of Barkley proves to be the 50m player Rooney was. People need to realise we are still capable of great things - look at our away support, every game sold out.

Fuck all this "if we manage 7th," that thinking should be consigned to our ginger past. We are going places with Roberto. No excuses, he's publicly set a target of 72 points. Sin miedo!!

Mark Taylor
53 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:26:11

One freak season that took place before City and Chelsea became what they are today and as Ray said, frankly a bit of a fluke.

Even today, I think it is possible to do CL as a one-off this season being a possibility but, over time, money talks and we are c 60m a year poorer than the team in front of us. That is a massive gap making it harder to do this sustainably or near impossible in my view.

Our best hope to break this glass ceiling is for our board and owners to get enthused about the possibilities RM has brought and invest some serious money in the club. It is not the craziest investment idea. If you really do have one of the world's best managers, he can optimise use of the money and if you can break into the top echelon, there are real profits to be had right now, all we do is deliver a pretty consistent, albeit fairly small loss, despite having to sell our best players and trade.

Amid all the dreaming, I am thinking about the (possible) reality, that our spineless board will end up in January selling our best players (Baines or, god forbid, Barkley), buying a replacement for half the money, then banking the rest. Why do I think this? Because it is what they do every effing transfer window!

Mark Taylor
54 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:37:42
Kevin, I admire your optimism and of course, I hope you are right, but there needs also to be room on this ship for the cold eyed realists, in addition to the romanticists.

As it happens, I think you are right and there is a possible chink in the top 6 armour for this season. For sure I can say this- we have had by far the most successful transition to a new manager. Provide the board don't choke in January, CL for this season is at least a possibility.

But as I said earlier, I'm not talking about one offs, I'm talking about a sustained period, 5-10 years because that is what the article is about. I fear that will be harder to deliver over that period without more significant structural changes than a new manager, however talented.

Patrick Murphy
55 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:30:21
Kevin I'm with you on the point that nothing is impossible and we certainly should try and remain optimistic for this season at least. I also acknowledge that realistically it will still be a tall order to get into those CL places and to finish there would be no mean feat. A lot will depend on how much the other clubs bolster their squads in the January window.

At least under the stewardship of RM we have seen the type of performances that the players are capable of and the type of football they can produce, but as always we have to perform in that way against the 'lesser' sides on a regular basis.

Let's see how many points we have accumulated come the start of the New Year and then hopefully we can really start to get excited.

Paul Andrews
56 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:40:52
I agree with you re the board, Mark, that goes without saying. But disagree with you wholeheartedly re our ambitions. Of course it would be easier with money.

A lot of our fans have been brainwashed into thinking 6/7th position is successful; not in my eyes. We are currently playing some of the best football in the league, and that after only 15 games for the team to adapt to the new style. Our football will become quicker and better the more games we play. The manager will play positive attacking football regardless of opposition or ground. Given a decent run with injuries who knows where we can finish.

One thing I know for certain: Roberto won't have your cautious approach to our possible league finish, I think he is not a man to respect the so-called pecking order, the display at Arsenal shows just that.

Ray Roche
57 Posted 11/12/2013 at 10:47:46
Paul, in 601 post you disagreed with my earlier comments that money would have an impact. My logic says that in todays football world is IS possible to fluke a top 4 finish in a season when other clubs choke, and remember, in our run in we lost 8 of our last 14 games and won only 4, hardly the form of a team destined for the CL is it? And with a defensive minded manager, too, so we got lucky.

Paul, I really admire Martinez and his optimism and hope he's right about us finishing in a top 4 spot, maybe we will, but without investment, finishing in the top 4 for more than a season or even two, is unrealistic. Why? Because to do that would showcase our best players and Kenwright and his mates would sell them to balance his books which would put us back to square one.

Kevin Tully
58 Posted 11/12/2013 at 11:03:55
We've played 15 games and lost 1.

The question is gent's, can we get to 30 games and keep our losses to say 3 games?

I believe we can, and that my friends is title winning form, never mind CL!!

Can Roberto extract an superhuman effort for those last 8 games - yes he can.

Everton are 7/2 in places for a top 4 finish, in from 22/1 at the start of the season!

The last time we finished top 4 BTW, we did it with a total of 61 points - just enough for an 8th place finish in 2009-10. A massive anomaly.

Paul Andrews
59 Posted 11/12/2013 at 11:07:21

You are twisting it there to suit your argument. I didn't say money means nothing. One thing is certain: if you don't believe you can achieve 4th, you won't achieve 4th.

I agree with you on the need to qualify for season after season as being a must, but one step at a time this season would be a start. Bearing in mind the money gained by qualifying and IF the board gave it to the manager is it beyond the realms of possibility we could do that?

Kevin Tully
60 Posted 11/12/2013 at 11:26:16
Points required for 4th place finish in the P.L. ;

71, 71, 74, 63, 68, 63, 67, 67, 68, 71, 67, 60 (Lowest ever - L,pool) 61 (Us) 67, 68, 76 (Highest) 72, 70, 68, 69, 73.

Raymond Fox
61 Posted 11/12/2013 at 11:06:31
Plenty of quality posts in this thread.

We have a manager in my eyes that has the ability to take us to the very top. But I agree that lack of money is a restriction, its the equivalent of a boxer fighting with one arm tied behind their back.

I do think it's possible to attain a CL spot this season because of the collection of players that RM has put together, plus our older players are still in good form, but if we get injuries to 1 or 2 of our best players we can forget I'd say.

I'd say if Roberto could go out and spend say 25m-35m in January our chances would be considerably improved though.

Mark Taylor
62 Posted 11/12/2013 at 11:17:37

You are absolutely right that if you believe you will only finish 6th or 7th, then that is where you will finish. But that applies to RM and the players- not to us! We can take a more dispassionate look at things.

On that basis, I think the caveats I'm putting before you have some substance.

Kevin, I love your optimism. Actually I think we can afford to lose more than 3 provided we don't draw so many, especially against teams we should in theory beat.

What is certain is that I haven't felt this good about watching us since the mid-80s.

Paul Andrews
63 Posted 11/12/2013 at 11:39:05

We will have to agree to disagree.
I don't really go in for dispassion were the Blues are concerned.
Much to my disappointment over the years!

Ray Roche
64 Posted 11/12/2013 at 11:45:15
Paul, 622, I'm not twisting anything, mate, I considered your post to mean that money wasn't the main requirement. If you agree with the importance of it, then we are pushing in the same direction.

I'm delighted with the optimism that pervades the atmosphere both on ToffeeWeb and at Goodison and hope we can finish top 4 at least once, and if we did and the rewards were made available for team building we could even cement our place in the CL spots for years to come.

You also say "One thing is certain if you don't believe you can achieve 4th you won't achieve 4th." which is something I'd like to agree with, however, Moyes set out for 40pts, not to finish 4th yet we still bumbled over the finishing line in 4th.

Now, mate, I'm trying to take my old kitchen out and then put a new one in so I don't have time to argue on ToffeeWeb all day, so accept your wrong and let's move on. ;-)

Paul Mackie
65 Posted 11/12/2013 at 12:05:56
I posted on here at the start of the season that I'd only consider Martinez a successful appointment if he was going to improve on our recent league placings and get us European football. So far we're on course to do that and assuming Roberto can keep evolving our playing style I think we'll get to 70 pts or thereabouts.

It's all well and good not getting beat, but 38 draws won't get us to where we want to be. I've seen enough of a change since the Palace game though to believe that we've got a manager who can adapt and we'll start breaking down the "bus parkers" of the PL soon enough. Spurs/Man U are both shite this season (with managers that are rapidly cracking up) so if we don't finish at least 5th I'll view this season as a missed opportunity.

Mark Taylor
66 Posted 11/12/2013 at 12:24:17

This reminds me of that memorable quote from Clockwise as John Cleese manfully tries to (unsuccessfully) cope with the barriers put in his way to get to a conference on time.

'It's not the despair. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand'

David Ellis
67 Posted 11/12/2013 at 16:53:04
yes indeed Mark - we should adopt that as the new motto to replace Nil Satis.
Paul Andrews
68 Posted 11/12/2013 at 17:06:23

It's not arguing mate,it's two people with a different opinion that's all.
No need for us to fall out.

Jay Harris
69 Posted 11/12/2013 at 18:25:07
There are 2 things that money doesn't necessarily buy:

1. Team spirit and togetherness (I include supporters in this).

2. Team tactics and style of play.

That is where the difference can be made up.

Shankly to be fair made that difference by telling dogs they were top class players and the opposition were weak and by banning any press who gave Liverpool a bad writeup.

He was a canny lad and I do see similarities in Martinez who is intelligent and articulate but most of all he seems to be convincing the players they are better than they believed.

I have to confess that I was very anti RM at the time of his appointment and like MK I think it is still too early to get carried away but tell me any Evertonian that doesn't feel we are unbeatable right now.

That belief from the terraces will infect the players and hopefully make up the gap to the monied clubs.

Dan Parker
71 Posted 11/12/2013 at 18:41:07
Thanks Tony, always good to hear from Toffees that witnessed the post-war 50s and 60s period. NSNO.
Gerry Quinn
72 Posted 11/12/2013 at 23:49:53
Kevin, get yerself into that dressing room with Roberto before every kick-off - AND at half time. Love the attitude...with you all the way
Laurie Hartley
73 Posted 13/12/2013 at 08:50:55

It takes a lot of courage to suggest that Roberto Martinez can lead Everton on a Shanklyesque revolution, be cause that would be a monumental achievement.

Let me say when it comes to LFC, sad to say, I am a complete bigot. However in recent years I have come to realise what Bill Shankly did for that club. My dad took me to my first Everton game just after John Carey was sacked. I have a vague recollection (lot of booze drunk in the ensuing 20 years) of Bobby Collins running out on to the pitch from what was too become my usual spec under the clock on the Goodison Road terraces.

We won the league title the following season - what a great time in my life. But you know what, many of us new deep down even then that Shankly had already started laying the foundations for success - we just wouldn't admit it - I for one was in denial. Anyway what followed was probably the greatest success story in the history of the English game. I don't know how much sliverware they won in the next 30 years - but I do know that Shankly laid the foundation.

The thing with Shankly was that he was a LEADER and he was fearless. He made the players believe in themselves, that they were invincible, that there was no such thing as a lost cause and so they followed him.

That was really something, But his greatest achievement was that he made their fans believe also and they spurred the team on from the terraces. That is why, in my opinion he remains the greatest manager in the history of the game in England - unlike Ferguson he started from nothing.

So this season w'eve beaten, Chelsea, Man Utd, passed Arsenal of the park at the Emirates, and come from behind to draw with "them". Yes City beat us on their patch but does anyone believe we can't beat them at Goodison?

As you all know I have held on to the hope that "we will be great again" (like in the 60's and 80's). Thanks to Roberto Martinez I am beginning to believe that I will see a great Everton side again.

Don't tell me to settle down - I can't. To see the youngsters in this team playing without fear and the commitment of the older heads has filled me with a happiness in recent weeks that I haven't experienced in 40 years - and our young Evertonians never.

I don't want it to end - and it's not going to.

I'm with you Tony.


Tony Sullivan
74 Posted 13/12/2013 at 11:16:52
Laurie, I think you have summed it up pretty well, Like you I think this guy is a leader in the Shankly mould, and we could be on the verge of a revolution, despite the disparity of financial resources.
Eugene Ruane
75 Posted 13/12/2013 at 11:55:02
Ian Burns (602) - This was from a piece in the Guardian.

(as I say, I have used it many times as a stick to beat them).

"A year after retiring, Shankly sat down and wrote his autobiography with Roberts. Perhaps the most candid passages dealt with Shankly's retirement. On his treatment by Liverpool, he wrote it was scandalous and outrageous that he should have to issue complaints about a club he had helped to build. But while Shankly's fury burned from the page, there was no sadness about him, says Roberts. Indeed Shankly remained an ebullient man. "But he did feel that he had been let down by Liverpool; by the directors, mainly. Shankly also revealed his shock that he had found solace at once-hated rivals Everton. "I have been received more warmly by Everton than I have been by Liverpool," he wrote. Indeed, on being exiled from Melwood, he began turning up at Everton's training ground, Bellefield, where he trained and sometimes helped Everton's club captain, Mick Lyons, coach the junior teams"

Actually, it just occurred to me, would any t-shirt annoy them more than..?

"I have been received more warmly by Everton than I have been by Liverpool," - Bill Shankly.

Ray Roche
76 Posted 13/12/2013 at 12:09:34
Eugene, I have used that same stick to good effect many times myself. So many RS fans have no idea of their history. I wonder how many of the Spirit Of Shankly shower are aware of that comment and, as you say, how many would be seriously pissed off by the T shirt. After all, they are not averse to trotting out in one themselves....
Patrick Murphy
77 Posted 13/12/2013 at 12:09:01
Just read on BBC Teletext Wigan's new manager Uwe Rosler has promised a return to the 'Roberto Martinez way' and midfielder McArthur said of last night's Europa League game "We got the ball down and tried to move it like we used to". And to think Owen Coyle was being touted for the Everton job not too long ago,
Alan McGuffog
78 Posted 13/12/2013 at 12:25:46
Trevor (460). Whilst I agree with you on the issue of blind bigotry, I have to take issue with your view that Catterick shipped out Vernon, Young et al to replace them with "work-horses" and "water-carriers".

The cup winning side of 1966 included Colin Harvey and Tommy Wright from our much admired youth policy.... Other such products, plus the addition of Ball and Kendall, formed the basis of the the best footballing side I have ever seen in the top English division, with particular reference to 1968-69

Ian Tunstead
80 Posted 13/12/2013 at 17:24:35
Not sure of the comparisons between Shankly and Martinez. If there is anyone to compare with Shankly it would have to be Moyes. Like Shankly, Moyes took over a struggling team and made them a team that could compete at the top end of the table. Obviously it is a different time now so Shankly didn’t have to compete against billionaire owners. Maybe one day Martinez can prove himself to be the Paisley, but it will take a lot more than a dozen or so games.

All this positivity stuff is all well and good but where did it get Wigan? Yes he could motivate them to win ‘one off games’ to win a cup, but in the league they suffered because they just didn’t have the quality or the money to improve.

Its like when a lower league team plays one of the big guns, they will raise their game and run that extra yard through the pain barrier, put their body on the line to make sure they win that 50-50 tackle and stretch that extra inch to win that last ditch tackle. It is their chance to have their names written in history and to be a hero and every now and then they will cause a shock result as a consequence. The thing is, the players are not machines.

It is very difficult to maintain that level of performance week in week out over the course of a season.

I think its far too early to compare Martinez to anyone, until at least the end of the season, preferably the end of next season when he has had to make do without the likes of Lukaku.

Paul Andrews
81 Posted 13/12/2013 at 20:41:35

I am just pondering whom I can compare you to.

Several similar minded people as yourself appear on the list.

Eugene Ruane
84 Posted 13/12/2013 at 21:31:28
At this time of year it's easy to forget those less fortunate.

Those who are having a tough time of things.

Those for whom everything appears to have gone horribly wrong.

So I'd like to ask Evertonians, who are enjoying life at the moment, to think of blues like Ian Tunstead (150) who, after pinning all their hopes on being able to say 'I told you so', have been kicked in the teeth by Martinez and the players.

Maybe some sort of live aid-type single is in order?

Sings: 'It's christmas time and there's no need to be a cun.."

(well you know how it goes)

Colin Wainwright
85 Posted 13/12/2013 at 21:35:00
Comparing Moyes to Shankly???

They are both Scottish, I'll give you that Ian.

Kevin Tully
86 Posted 13/12/2013 at 21:41:36
Just picture it - a statue of Moyes outside Goodison, the Moyes gates at the entrance to the ground.

All his quotes being published 50 years on - 'let's get to 40 points and see where we go from there.'

Or 'top 10 is where we should be aiming.'

The trophies, the charisma, a legacy that lasts for 50 years or more, the KITAP1 revolution...why didn't I get it before today??

Colin Wainwright
88 Posted 13/12/2013 at 21:50:44
I know Kevin. Tim Cahill dining out for years on the "Knife to a Gunfight" speech. The after dinner circuit wont know whats hit it.
Colin Wainwright
89 Posted 13/12/2013 at 21:57:55
The comparison doesn't end there. I do remember seeing grainy footage of Shankly telling massed ranks of deludes, that he should have dropped more players for the derby.

I think.

Kevin Tully
90 Posted 13/12/2013 at 22:03:43
Or Col, an inscription for the foot of the statue that would really sum up his time with us ; 'We went to Old Trafford, and got out alive.'

David Graves
91 Posted 13/12/2013 at 21:48:06
Ian Tunstead your analogy that the new Everton is like a "when a lower league team blah blah blah" is ..... You know what I can't even be arsed to respond to your inanity.
Colin Wainwright
93 Posted 13/12/2013 at 22:10:55
I know Kev. I really can't believe I haven't noticed this similarity before! We need that statue. Sell Barkley to fund it Bill FFS!

So they're both Scottish and their PR skills are second to none. No wonder Utd went for him.

Jim Lloyd
94 Posted 13/12/2013 at 22:35:30
Good post Tony!

I agree that what is happening with our team, is a revolution and I think that many fans who didn't want Martinez at Everton, are now believing that he can an Everton team playing exciting football and also strong in the tackle and chasing back as a natural part of their game.

They certainly appear to be enjoying their football and it's sometimes difficult to pick a man of the match because of so many good individual performances. I think the football being played is not only exciting us fans, it's got the country looking at us.

Where I think the revolution that Roberto has started, might flounder, is when Billy Bullshit disappears back down to London when he asks "what's in the transfer kitty Bill?"

I don't say we can't finish 4th, because we can. But I feel it is more likely that we will finish outside the top 4. What I wouldn't like to see, is people saying that he's failed, if he doesn't make Europe. I love the way we're playing football and it's great to see Jagielka playing with more confidence on the ball. I've previously posted that he couldn't pass wind, let alone give a decent pass but he's improved a lot in a short time.

Like you Tony; and Ray and Trevor, I saw what I consider to be some of the best football by an Everton side that I've ever seen in the early 60's and I believe that Johnny Carey would have had us as the greatest side in the division, had he stayed. He almost gave us a revolution; with fantastic football and I don't consider Catterick as good a football manager. nor as a communicator with the fans.

Whereas Liverpool welcomed the telly, Catterick shunned it. I think we missed out big time in the late sixties, while lfc surged to world wide fame.

Well, a vastly different time now and different circumstances. All I can say, is that Roberto Martinez has made me pleased as punch that I got my season ticket back this year. The football is exciting and I think he's given already, a lot of Evertonians something else...Pride.

Jim Lloyd
95 Posted 13/12/2013 at 23:02:47

Comparing Moyes to Shankley? Bloody Nora!

Andy Riley
96 Posted 13/12/2013 at 22:50:37
I think Mr Martinez has changed the mentality of Everton from top to bottom even in the short time he has been here. There is now a much more positive, friendly, fan focussed and "can do" approach that I've had personal experience of recently over a couple of issues.

Possibly he had nothing to do with it but shortly after Roberto's arrival I attended a very positive EGM at the Philharmonic Hall at which is has to be said our Chief Executive was to me outstanding. Maybe at all levels Mr Martinez is a unifier who has got everyone singing from the same hymn sheet.

We have history, we are a big club and Roberto seems to instinctively know that we should be at least trying to challenge for the top four rather than basically being satisfied with avoiding relegation every year and looking at anything above that as being plucky knife carrying minnows punching above their weight against the Johnny Seven (remember them) wielding big boys.

I couldn't believe that OFM had never invited Howard Kendall to Finch Farm but again the facts that Roberto did soon after arriving says much about him. Please wake me up because I do think I'm dreaming at the moment!

Tony Sullivan
98 Posted 14/12/2013 at 03:46:00
Ian (150)
Apart from promotion from the old 2nd division Shankly didn't win anything until 64-65 1st Div Champions, 1965 FA Cup (for the first time),1966 1st Div Champions.

Most people can see that Liverpool went on from there and although we competed for a time, we broke up our winning sides prematurely.

And by the way, we were nicknamed the 'Mersey Millionaires' because John Moores was bankrolling us, we could ask did we waste that opportunity?

Shankly instilled a winning mentality in his teams, which it seems to me is what Roberto is doing with us. Surely this is the reason why Blues of my generation are so optimistic.

Ian Tunstead
100 Posted 14/12/2013 at 04:31:02
Tony, 265, fair enough, thank you for giving me some faith in fellow Evertonians and putting forward some sort of reasonable discussion rather that just dishing out the insults and trying to belittle other Evertonains for having a different opinion.

As I have said time and time again whether its been Moyes in charge or Martinez, I will reserve judgement until the end of the season. Sorry to other fellow Evertonians for not wanting to get carried away and for trying not to get caught up it the Martinez Love in just yet but I have heard all the hype so many times before and then watched us fall at the pivotal moment too many times. I don't want to criticise Martinez or kiss Moyes arse I just want to see a balanced discussion.

Laurie Hartley
101 Posted 14/12/2013 at 10:00:11
If you think you are beaten, you are;
If you think you dare not, you don't;
If you'd like to win, but think you can't,
It's almost a cinch you won't.
If you think you'll lose, you're lost,
For out in the word we find
Success begins with a fellow's will,
It's all in the state of mind.

If you think you're outcasted, you are;
You've got to think high to rise.
You've got to be sure of yourself before
You can ever win a prize.
Life's battles don't always go
To the stronger or faster man;
But soon or late the man who wins
Is the man who thinks he can.

-Walter D. Wintle.

Winning is a state of mind.

Roberto Martinez is teaching us (and perhaps the hierarchy at Goodison) how to think again.

Si, se puede!


Laurie Hartley
102 Posted 14/12/2013 at 10:07:28
If you think you are beaten you are;
If you think you dare not you don't;
If you'd like to win but think you can't,
It's almost a cinch you won't.
If you think you'll lose your lost,
For out in the world we find,
Success begins with a fellows will,
It's all in the state of mind.

If you think you're outcastes you are;
You've got to think high to rise,
You've got to be sure of yourself before
You can ever win a prize.
Life's battles don't always go
To the stronger or faster man;
But sooner or later the man who wins,
Is the man who thinks he can.

- Walter D. Wintle

Winning is a state of mind.

Roberto Martinez is teaching us (and perhaps even the hierarchy at Goodison) how to think again.

Si, se puede!


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