Time to Prove It

Darren, I’m sure you’ll be expecting it but I’ll wager not many respondents to this piece will agree with you on many of your assertions.

First of all, it’s premature – and probably disingenuous – to cite results at Tottenham and Arsenal last year that occurred in April seeing as we’re not even there yet this season. Indeed, given that Martinez has us on more or less the same trajectory as had Moyes, but with a better points total and a more severe injury crisis, it would surely make sense to have offered this critique in May?

To the same point, Martinez has been in the job for less than nine months whereas Moyes had been there for 11 years and it’s not a given that an incoming manager can effect as seamless a transition from one regime to another as Roberto has done. Ask Mr Moyes. Or Brendan Rodgers, who took most of a season to get Liverpool performing the way their superior resources suggest they should do.

For me, the writing was on the wall for us last season with the defeats at Manchester United and at Norwich City in February, followed up by the Wigan debacle in the FA Cup. I may yet be proved wrong, but I don’t see the same signs of our challenge coming off the rails this time; on the contrary, we look like we’ll have staying power and the ability to control matches in a way that we never had under the previous manager.

One of your tenets of your argument seems to be that: Martinez inherited this great squad but improved on it by drafting in some terrific loan signings (which Moyes could have done but didn’t to the same level); that he doesn’t deserve praise for not holding us back in the same Moyes seems, in hindsight, to have done; and for having Ross Barkley, a player that Moyes refused to play, handed to him on a plate when in reality he has made him the player he is now by believing in him. Forgive me, but all that stacks up as things for which Martinez should be praised so I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

Finally, the defeat at Anfield. The fact is, we were not murdered in the way that the scoreline suggested. Martinez got his defensive tactics very wrong that night, perhaps for the first time since he arrived, with two clearly unfit defenders. But we still had over 60% of the possession and could easily have leveled things up after half an hour which, had we done so, would have made for a very different game. I regard the capitulation of two years ago when Moyes rested half his team as worse – at least this time we gave it a go.

With regard to Liverpool, specifically, though (seeing as you have made finishing above them as the marker by which Martinez will prove his worth this season), we’re not up against the same team as the last two seasons. They have a settled manager now, a vastly bigger budget, and better players than they had when we finished above them. I, personally, think they would be some way below us were it not for Suarez and if we had someone with his ability to score goals out of nothing that we would be firmly in the top four. It’s going to take everything we have to finish above them, and that would be the case no matter who our manager is. (It’s no accident that six of the current top seven in the Premier League have megabucks at their disposal.)

I think Martinez has been a breath of fresh air, to be honest, and I think that he is at the beginning of a significant evolution at Everton. His predecessor changed the mentality from fear of relegation to one of stability and then lament at the glass ceiling above us. Martinez seems to be putting in place the platform from which we can break the glass ceiling (one that is much thicker than it was when we finished 4th in 2005) – in terms of mentality, our ability to attract top talent on loan, and our youth. On that basis, it’s far too early to be challenging him to prove anything at this point. Just let him get on with it.

Martinez made a tactical mistake against a potent forward line, OK mistake made, he will learn from it and move on.

Cast your eyes over to old Trafford and look at his incumbent, repeated mistakes, not just one, but the same ones many times over.

It seems to me some fans struggle to accept they were wrong in over rating Moyes and under rating Martinez. Enjoy being wrong and let the man get on with altering the mindset of a club led to believe that mediocrity is acceptable for Everton by a man who has made a fortune out of it.

The only thing Martinez has to prove to me is that he can give us a decent tenure,

By the way Darren, Moyes inherited a squad who had just pissed the league, and in a short space of time he had turned them into a team who are fucking woeful.

Here you said hopefully you will look back in 4 months time and not feel reason to worry? Maybe you expected more than top 4 contenders playing great stuff.

Personally I think it sums your agenda up.

However, I would also add that, whenever I talk to Manure fans they highlight the same weaknesses in Moyes we were banging on about for the last few years....No Plan B, poor substitutions left too late to make an impact. defending a 1-0 lead instead of going for 2. Provided he stays there (jury out on that one) Moyes will eventually have some success at manure because even he has surely got to win something with all the money he’ll have to spend; but I don’t think their fans will enjoy it much. He’s already managed expectations downwards whereby qualifying for Europa would now be seen as a triumph.

Meanwhile our side don’t know when they’re beaten, play some great football and have me looking forward to watching them play in the style that has everything to do with our new manager’s positive attitude to how the game should be played and nothing to do with his inheritance from Moyes.

Brian W, I’m not sure where you’re at re Moyes inheriting a squad which had just ’pissed the league’. There’s no question Moyes improved us, (and then frustrated us) so can you elaborate?

Maybe it’s the attitude of "Let’s get to 40 points first" mentality you are missing? I for one wouldn’t waste my short time left on this planet to watch that shite again. Martinez has the team playing a better brand of football and has instilled confidence in them to play with the ball rather than hoofing it for fear of losing it.

Mistakes were made in the derby but I for one feel more confident in the team and Martinez learning from those mistakes. Darren you are deluded if you think that the dour one never made mistakes in his 11 years here. Remember, he wouldn’t give Barkley a chance, held onto his love child Neville for far too long, and ran the shite out of his starting eleven, for example, Ossie.

I suggest you are suffering from the same condition as the dour one, which is fear of change. Roberto on the other hand is changing the fear. He is putting the fear on to other teams instead of instilling the fear in his own players. When you crawl back under that rock again, tell the dour one we are loving life without him.

I have read your posts on the site and on the match day forum.

Of course everyone is more than entitled to an opinion and to air that opinion.

But football is about passion and belief and not logic.

I have watched Everton consistently since 1959 and I can say honestly that the past 7 years of Moyes, who I was very clear about in all my posts, generally bored me senseless ( apart from the very odd game) and was most of the time completely gutless.

Martinez on the other hand inspires me a bit.

Agreed he hasn’t won anything yet - - unlike Moyes whose record is without doubt incredible???? - - but maybe you can get behind Martinez for the next few months and maybe give him a bit of the time you obviously gave Moyes over 11 generally dull and uninspiring years.

If you want to throw the Liverpool game at Martinez then OK - do you want a list of the Moyes games I could throw at you.

Let’s support him hey and see where it takes us - or maybe I could ask you as I was always asked when I criticised Moyes - who do you want.

Me I am a happy Evertonian at the moment all things considered.

Again, my thanks to ManU for making us make a decision and I for one am happy with where we are right now.

At least at Anfield we kept trying to play football. If you were shamed at Anfield this year then please let me know your shame times under the dreadful (in my opinion) Moyes - - mine are many.

Best wishes.

Martinez has clearly done a brilliant job in changing the way we play and reinvigorating an admittedly already strong group of players plus adding some extra quality and flair. To finish in the top 7 and maintain the level of side with no extra investment would have to be regarded as a great achievement for a first season in itself, effectively maintaining the status quo results wise when many thought the wheels would fall off and stars depart post Moyes.

To do the above and actually improve the squad (which I think he has done) and also serve up attractive attacking football (which he has definitely done) would be even better.

Beyond that, to finish top 5, improving on last few seasons and securing some form of European competition would be a genuinely fantastic success that would be worthy of plaudits both inside and outside the club.

And if we could add to this a good cup run and maybe even a final tilt at a tin pot, that would be frankly amazing.

The real problem for Roberto is that he’s already raised our hopes and belief even further. A Champions League place and a chance to win the cup both seem within reason now, rather than being the dreamland prospects that they have been previously (and arguably should be in financial competitivity stakes).

In fact, these ambitions have actually had to be downgraded gently from the whispers of a title challenge that was doing the rounds pre Xmas.

Indeed the situation right now is such that if we don’t end up grasping 4th or winning the tin pot I know that part of me (and a good number on here) are going to end this season feeling more than a little disappointed - when in reality we should be dancing in the streets at a top 6 finish, a cup run and the prospects of European competition.

Is this a good thing? I don’t know 100%. What I do know is that barring a collapse Martinez reign has started on an absolute flier and for the first time in many years we’re going into pretty much EVERY game expecting to win.

Great line Peter Roberts (544). It just sums Moyes up IMO.

Don't get me wrong: I want to beat the Shite everyday of the week; however, I want us to finish as high up the table as possible, first and foremost, and my biggest disappointment was that the performance was below par for the season. However, if we can get back on track tomorrow and put a run together that gets us to where we deserve to be, then I think Champions League won't be far off. Now that would really rub the Shite's noses in it.

However, if that is not to be, I believe that we will be able to look in the mirror and say we gave it a fuckin good go and in a style we are proud of. I have not been able to say that in a long time.....

Thank you for taking the time out to put together such a a measured and persuasive response.

Let me clear a couple of things up: whilst I stand by the point that Martinez inherited a fantastic talent in Barkley, I'm more than happy to acknowledge he is doing a terrific job with regards to the boy's development. I'm also happy to acknowledge his achievement in the transfer window. I'm not against praising our manager, but I cannot agree with all of your points. I do see signs of our challenge coming off the rails.

I am worried by the home loss to Sunderland, the uninspiring draws at WBA and Stoke, so much so that I celebrated the attritional win over Villa as if it were a cup final.

I also disagree with you about the Anfield game. You're right, we did have over 60% possession, but was that not part of the Shite's game plan? I thought they were happy to let us have the ball up to a certain point, but when they countered, they cut us to pieces. They scored from three one-on-ones but they had several more. We played too high a line all night.

Rodgers does have a much bigger war chest than Martinez (who hasn't?) but he didn't really bring in any superstars with the money he got from the sale of the likes of Carroll, Shelvey, Downing etc. It could be argued that with loan deals we brought in better players than they did last summer.

Unfortunately, Lyndon, as you know, time is not something given to these managers. It's a results driven business. Seven EPL managers have had the push already this season and who would bet against a couple more getting the sack? Brendan may have had a year more in the job, but as long as they are both here that will always be the case.

George (565) — I have seen you post too and respect your views, so I will answer your question. The times I felt shame under Moyes are too numerous to mention... but this has nothing to do with Moyes, mate, he's been gone nearly a year.

I'm a similar age to you and over the past decade or so I have grown heartily sick of people talking about "relative" success; I thought I'd heard the last of it. IMO, this is our chance, but we must prevent the Shite from getting their hands on Champions League money; the others will not be in transition next season, they will almost certainly be flexing their financial muscles. I don't believe Martinez or Everton will get a better chance.

Despite the Shite's performance today, a victory over Spurs will put us right back in it. If my expectations are unrealistic, then the "relative" success we have enjoyed / endured for a decade may we prove to be all we can ever achieve.

I think demands should be made of Robbie, he should be challenged; we've spent years allowing a manager to believe 5/6/7th was acceptable.... does that mean Martinez should be afforded the same luxury? Two wrongs don't make a right.

As Paul says the table doesn't lie and we'll end up where we deserve to end up and as far as I know there is no special prize for finishing ahead of your rivals - unless Sky have introduced one.

If Everton had measured every season against our rivals we would have an empty stadium and probably be playing in the lower leagues by now.

It is time for all Evertonians to forget what the other lot are doing and concentrate on what Everton are doing - It's not easy I know from personal experience - but believe me we have been through a lot worse in our recent history and we shouldn't allow the media and other supporters to put us off supporting our club

Support your own club and forget about the rest until the season has run its course, it's never been an easy task but we are Evertonians.

Martinez shouldn't be afforded the same luxury, no, but the clear distinction between him and Moyes is that with everything he says and does, Martinez doesn't believe that 5/6/7th is acceptable. He may have come to terms with the fact that finishing higher than that is unrealistic in the short term but his rhetoric suggests he is setting Everton up to be able to finish in those positions over the medium term.

We disagree on whether Martinez should be given time, though, so that answer may not satisfy you. Yes, football is a results-driven business but given the current gulf in resources and squad depth between us and the teams above us, we're doing as well as can be realistically expected. As optimistic and ambitious as Everton should be, if Martinez finishes 5th for the next 5 seasons given that glass ceiling, he will certainly be doing his job in terms of what Kenwright and the Board will expect from him.

With regard to Liverpool again, I'm going to have to concede on the back of today's game that they are more than just a one-man team. And it doesn't matter that Rodgers has bought some crap, with the speed and potency in their team from the likes of Coutinho, Sturridge, Rat Boy and Sterling, they have enough to rip teams apart if they'll afford them the space to do so.

Now, we can say we have to deny them a Champions League slot and the money that comes with it all we like, but if they keep scoring 4 or 5 goals a game and keep on winning, there's not a lot we can do about it sitting below them.

We have to keep on winning but it stands to reason that we will not win all our remaining games. Football doesn't work like that, no matter how good a manager I believe Martinez to be.

For me, I viewed his arrival as the start of a 4/5-year process. The fact that we're in top-four contention just 9 months in is a bonus and I'd really like to see us make the most of the opportunity now that we're here. But I won't blame Martinez if we don't make it.

I am fed up with the "nearly" stuff.

I think money buys the Premier but if you haven't got it then let's see some football and hope for a Cup.

However, at the beginning of every Season I believe – football not being logical – that we will win the League.

I have my bets on that we will finish above RS and put my money on an FA Cup win in December. I do Everton to win 4-0 every game. £1 bet.

Best wishes and regards.

There are so many factors which make this simplistic comparison irrelevant. As Lyndon has stated, injuries are a massive factor, and had a clear impact on the derby match. We also are bringing in a new style of football, which takes time, and introducing younger players to the squad. We are also facing the most competitive league in many seasons. We always have to put up with teams outspending us, but the money spent over the summer from clubs throughout the division, demonstrates the general competitiveness of this division (Southampton, Cardiff, Swansea etc). Unless we collapse, I've been proud of our performance this season, and still have hopes for a cup run, even if I do not think top 4 will happen. And Martinez has surpassed my expectations.

Unfortunately, though it pains me to say so,
they are playing some fantastic football and appear unstoppable at present!

I said as much after our derby defeat, that I didn't put all the blame on our back line because 2 of the through balls that led to 2 of their goals, I put down to good play on their part, not bad defending.

Much the same happened to Arsenal today,
it should have been 7-0 after 20-25mins.
They tore Arsenal to pieces with through balls and other all round good play.

Anyway that's enough of me giving them credit, anything can happen from now on and I hope their wheels come off and we can have a exceptional run in.

I think its somewhat short sighted though to say that if we finish behind rs. Martinez will have failed, given the difference in transfer spending and the length of time he's been in charge.
I have never decried what OFM did in respect of our finishing position each season, I think he did a 1st class job given the circumstances.

I also think that you should give our new manager more credit, because you appear very much out of step with the great majority of Everton fans and the media.
Your entitled to your own opinion of course, but in line with Phil you do seem to have held a vendetta against Martinez from the beginning.

I must also ask, if you're refer to others as "Robbie's supporters" then I assume you consider yourself one of Robbie's detractors, no? For there to be any kind of division amongst supporters into pro- or anti- positions on a manager who has only been in place a few months & is doing a fine job, so far, seems utterly pitiful. I consider my self an Everton supporter - the coaches & players are merely transitory.

Can I ask, who was your choice to take this club forward when Moyes left? You must have had someone in mind surely?

What I am saying is that, in my opinion, there has never been season when so many of the CL contenders are being reconstructed. There may never be a better chance than this... and this chance has fallen to Martinez. After this season, the gulf in resources you rightly refer to is far more likely to widen than narrow.

We dropped seven valuable points against three teams looking nervously over their shoulders leading up to the Anfield game, surely that's more down to our inability to see them off than the wealth of other clubs. As manager, should Martinez not shoulder at least some of the blame? Is he to be praised for the good performances, but escape accountability for the bad?

I sat in the kop the other night, I'm not whining about that, nobody put a gun to my head, but I got a good insight into how much better the Shite believe Brenda is, those who think I don't want Martinez to ram their chants down their throats couldn't be further from the truth.

I believe the Shite will slip up when teams come to park the bus and we have to capitalise if they do. In my view, Robbie Martinez is more likely to succeed if Evertonia demands and expects,

I can see most people disagree with me, but IMO the last thing we need right now is another manager being told it' s okay if he doesn't do it.

Much too early to judge Martinez, he's had half a season. I like what he's doing so far.

But, 2 or 3 seasons down the track, if he becomes or seems to become as inflexible in his ways as TGT was to his, well the MOB uniform is still in the back of the wardrobe somewhere.

Can't be havin with Inflexible.

You see this as a weakness to be exploited yet City, Chelsea, Spurs and us have all changed managers to great effect, add in Arsenal and Liverpool improving and your case is built on sand - as usual.

The only weak CL club being reconstructed is at OT and we all know why that is.

Try and get over it he's gone, get behind our club and our manager we have improved immeasurably, your mindset is getting like that Jap soldier who stubbornly refused to believe ww2 was over for 29 yrs.

You'll end up hiding in a privet hedge in Stanley Park shouting at squirrels - "EMPEROR MOYES LIVES!" .

One part amused me... "I don't think we do disagree on whether or not Martinez should be given more time Lyndon. I'm not calling for him to be sacked, why would I, who would we get?"

Your hero Moyes will be available soon enough Darren. He may have signed a 6 year contract at £6m a year, but all that guarantees is that if he is sacked, he's still getting paid until he picks up another job. It's the way of such contracts these days - giving security to the overpaid without the potential liability to the over-payers.

Of course he could sit tight for 5 years and do nothing, and Utd would take the hit. Lots of clubs piss money away each year. We piss away upwards of £7m a year in interest and finance charges.

Thanks for at least adressing the points Lyndon

Off to spurs

Your case just isn't balanced at all... You are creating a criteria for Martinez to be judged on which is frankly goal stretching due to the fact that he has irritatingly blown your premature reservations and judgement out of the water.

Being wrong is good when it comes to football, it's reassurance that the likes of you and I have no real idea when it comes to understanding the game at the level the likes of Martinez clearly does. If we were always right then why not steal a living picking £70k a week playing a one size fits all brand of football?

I understand your position to a degree, I have wanted Moyes out of Everton for 5 years, listening to doom mongers tell me that without him and his percentage football would see Everton back to the walker and Smith days didn't sway my judgement of a man who is an expert in sandbagging. The very fact I have been proven right on two counts is satisfying.

The fact is fans get too carried away with being tribal towards a manager... I am mindful of this with Martinez as I do rate him very highly. Watching him operate this club is like watching Lewis Hamilton take the drivers seat when you need to get somewhere quick. The previous driver was too insistent on Sat nav and saving petrol, this fella knows where he's going and gets the car performing to its maximum.

Bit early for that, isn't it?