Andy Gray – Everton Giant

Andy Gray was certainly a catalyst at the beginning of that golden era, but whether that merits a place in the Hall of Fame is doubtful as Harold says there are a few special players who might deserve to be up there. If Andy Gray was to get a place what about Kevin Campbell without whose services we may have been doomed to relegation.

Don't get me wrong like you I loved every moment of Andy Gray's career at Goodison and all those games you mention I remember as if they were yesterday, but Hall of Fame not too sure.

From what I have been told Tommy Lawton should also be considered as a great. And if only for one game, for the sheer euphoria he created at Wembley on 14 May 1966, Mike Trebilcock!

The man seems (to me) to be an arsehole, a real bar-room lawyer know-all type.

He also (to me) gives off that self-made man Tory vibe of "I've got where I have by sheer hard slog"

Plus if we're judged by the company we keep (see 'Keysie') the verdict would be 'guilty...of being a big twat!'

However as far as Andy Gray Everton player goes - a giant every single day of the week.

Brave, determined and with a personality on the pitch that dragged those around him to great(er) heights (this type of player is absolutely invaluable - West Ham are now up to 10th, only imo because 'big mouth dirty bastard' Nolan despises losing and keeps the rest of them from slacking)

I honestly believe that had Reid and Gray not got over injuries in 1984 and had to finish their careers, we'd have had none of the success we did over the following three or so years.

Not an amazingly skillful player but talking ALL the time, completely fearless and I've never seen a player anywhere who enjoyed seeing a ball hit the back of the net more.

Sheedy was undoubtedly a great player but he needed (and was given) confidence and protection from tough mouth-pieces like Reid and Gray.

Gray for me is 100% an Everton giant, as much for the winning mentality he helped instil in those (younger players) he played with as for his goals.

When does ' Giant ' become 'Legend'.... then we get well if xxxxxxxx is in what about yyyyyyyyy....onto, well without Trebilcock, Jackson, Whittle, Heath, Mountfield, would we have won the cup and the League x 2

Collins, Vernon, Parker, Gabriel, Kay, Harris, Trebilcock, Husband, Morrissey, Whittle, Jackson etc.

Trouble was, when we were good we were F'kin Brill... all over the place.

Everybody who pulled on a Blue Shirt are Giants ( 1=20 ) Some however are bigger than others, so where do you draw the line.

Andy Gray fits into that category and would clearly be a giant in my eyes.

I remember coming home from school to our house in Walton in the early 1980s and my Mum telling me that Radio Merseyside had announced we've signed a new player. It was Andy Gray and he was to be a catalyst for our success. ( Around the same period, I also remember Peter Reid's brother or cousin phoning in to RM on the Alan Jackson show questioning why Peter Reid wasn't a first team regular!)

Compare Gray to Lineker (who was far more prolific) and Gray had that extra charisma and drive that would put him ahead of GL on the Giants list. It's the same argument with Duncan Ferguson (#1) whose presence / threat gave us that bit extra when we really needed it.

Mick Lyons is a good shout. Came close but won nothing with us. If ever a player was unlucky, it was him.

Gray's image is tainted somewhat by his persona of his Sky era.

Footballing wise, brilliant player that made those around him want to win too. That quality is too rare in players today.

His time at Sky was very good until the sexist remarks scandal. And I will never forgive Talk Sport for giving them a job over Mike Parry, Parry was a knob but great entertainment made morning radio worth tuning in to...

Similarly, his standing as an Everton giant is, in my (perhaps biased) opinion, not the shoe in it should be because of the time he publicly flirted with taking the managers job only to jib it when he'd secured a stonking rise in salary from his pay masters at Sky. I never looked at him the same way after that.

Andy Gray, the media man, the gregarious geezer, the mouthy misogynist muff maestro in his own mind, is symptomatic of the sort of moronic, lowest common denominator shite that has been clogging up the British airwaves and permeating it's way into the wider cultural consciousness for far too long.

He's of the 'bit of banter, boys?' brigade, summed up beautifully in this qoute:

"Banter is a catch-all word for idiocy that warns the rest of us that 'Here Be Lads'.

Banter is Soccer AM. It is Andy Gray. It is middle-aged men on Top Gear pretending that they are edgy outsiders by mocking society's weakest, then going home to Chipping Norton where they live two doors down from the Prime Minister. It is an English stag do in Dublin or Amsterdam with matching T-shirts. It is cruelty unleavened by wit but which is excused because it is a bit like wit, if you look at it from a certain angle.

It is what is left when humour has died, and just the rotting, stinking carcass remains, bearing a resemblance to the living being but lacking all that made it good."

Having said all that....he's still one of my all time favourite Everton players purely because he was capable of lifting those around him to greater heights via sheer force of will. He played to win and was perfectly willing to do whatever it took. If that meant being a dirty bastard or bollocking his teammates, then so be it.

If Tim Horward (for example) had even half of Andy Gray's appetite and desire and hatred of coming out of a confrontation second best then there's no way he would have hesitated when he saw John Terry steaming in towards him on Saturday.

Like Mocky (I can call him Mocky coz we are mates now) I was at Meadow Lane in yep the wettest game ever and like Mocky I did my dance of delirium when Gray scored. Unlike Mocky, however, I can't think of him as an Everton 'great'. Simply can't. Does he have enough games under his belt to be a 'great' - although to be fair magic Dunc did not play a huge number of times (I blame Dracula for that). I do agree about Gray's impact on games but he was in no shape or form the lynchpin of that team and there's a little bit of overkill here on him creating the space for say Sheeds, who has a far better case to be legend.

I remember when Lineker arrived and Gray was in effect pushed to one side there was a fair amount of protesting when his move down the M6 was publicly announced.

Now, more dodgy ground, Gray's post-Everton attitude to and relationship with the club because I can't see a single one of the inducted who have been nothing but steadfastly loyal once they hung their old boots up. Didn't Gray piss a lot of people off with his response to the possibility - thank God it didn't happen by the way - of him becoming EFC gaffer? How many times do we see Gray in and around the Old Lady like all the true greats being invited back by the club to speak, giving his time to Everton .... remember his 2011 chat show tour being cancelled coz nobody wanted to go to hear his chat - including the Liverpool shows?

He appears to be an utter tosser to me - his grubby embarrassing so called repartee with dickhead Keyes. Remember, too, 'Charlotte, can you tuck this down here for me?'. He thought he was untouchable and he wasn't.

On another note, when doing my dance of delirium at Highbury in '84 when Inchy - does he deserve a place in this roll of honour? - scored at 117 I managed to lose one of my rather tasty designer shoes. If anyone has that shoe could they please post on ToffeeWeb Miscellaneous and I will reward her/him with a handsome amount of sponds.

Gray in - not for me - not yet anyway - there are quite a few more deserving candidates and much better Evertonians than 'im.

Paul, at my age "hospital pass" might start to take on a new meaning!

At the very least I feel there are others nearer the front of that queue. Off the cuff :- Joe Mercer, Tommy Lawton, Royston Vernon, Jimmy Gabriel, Mick Lyons, Tim Cahill all leap to mind. But I'm happy not to be the one making the final selection.

Dennis - 109 - Joe Mercer, Tommy Lawton, Royston Vernon, Jimmy Gabriel,

Wow that is a roll-call of honour and I'd be more than happy if they were the next four to be added to that glowing list.

I could list 20/30 more worthy recipients, memorable for some classic headed goals in a golden era, for me his greatest sin was "You Beauty" ode to Stevie Gee. Fuck off, Andy.

I like the idea but it must be restricted to the greats.

Carry on with one a year and, before you know it, Peter Beagrie's in there.

By the way, Harold and others help me out here, was the Jack Sharp in town when I was experiencing the ravages of puberty owned by THE JACK SHARP. Hope so, I bought a few things from there. Thanks, mum.

Well he was in my mind until this...."What A Hit Son....What A Hit!!" screaming at the top of his voice and all but jumping out the stand as Stevie GBH’s 89th minute shot hit the back of the net against Olympiakos thus eliminating the Greek side from the Champions League 2004-05 and keeping the Dark Side in the competition which they then went on to win...a competition they never even qualified for.

To my mind no true Evertonian would have behaved in the manner he did.... no matter whether he’s supposed to be neutral or not... Did any one here behave in such a manner when that goal went in?? I know I didn’t... I was absolutely gutted!!

Does anyone think Gary Neville would do the same??

In fact the way he (Gray) commentates on most Liverpool games if you didn’t know better you would think he had played for them and not us!!

Andy Gray... Everton Giant??

Never in a million years !!

Eugene as ever says this more eloquently than I can but for me it's not what he's done since he left Everton but what he achieved on the field marks him out.

Maybe it's those of a certain age (mid 40s / mid 50s) that are most likely to think of him as a giant. In the same way my old feller bangs on about Young and Vernon. I don't have that point of reference, I saw Latchford, Sharp, Lineker and Ferguson but never saw anyone with the bravery, aggressiveness and sheer energy that Gray played with. Maybe it's those qualities that off the football field make him the individual he is.

IMHO there would be lots of greats, a smaller number of giants, a handful of legends and just three immortals.

He soon started doing a weekly column for that rag soon after,so I believe.

01 Southall (90s)
02 Coleman (10s)
03 Wilson (60s)
04 Kendall (80s)
05 Ratcliffe (80s)
06 Watson (00s)
07 Ball (70s)
08 Young (60s)
09 Royle (70s)
10 Beardsley (90s)
11 Rooney (00s)
12 Arteta (10s)

It's very difficult!

Reading his stats alone would have the hairs on your neck stood on end
He really was a worthy replacement for WR Dean
Sadly Tommy's football career was badly interrupted by an Austrian vegetarian painter & decorator's histrionics

But Tommy was a world class act and a true gentleman
I reckon if you asked Billy Dean who he'd nominate he'd only have one answer

Tommy Lawton

Thanks everyone else about Jack Sharp's in Whitechapel where I got my adidas/perry/coq/pod late 70s so happy it went into the coffers of one of us.

Great thread this.

I spent a wonderful 90 minutes with Joe & his lovely wife Lily on the train back after the '84 FA Cup Final
Wonderful memory, of 2 wonderful people

Gentleman Joe is also the first Evertonian to manage England

Joe also had success at Arsenal and managing Man City

A more devout proper Evertonian is yet to be born

I was reading the "Dixie" Biography of Billy Dean when I met Mr Mercer, he signed it for me and wrote
"I signed for Everton in 1932, on my first day Billy told me that I had a pair of legs that wouldn't last his postman the morning", Joe Mercer, Everton & England

Gentleman Joe would add to the status of Legend

Nice posting by Dave Prentice, adds insight to the whole subject

As always Harold adds class with his contributions (though I completely disagree with his views of Duncan McKenzie "Is MAGIC !" )

I'd also suggest that further down the line there's a guy who earned Legend status with a single act

Andy King

The fact is there was precedent. A couple of years before 2005 Real Madrid had won the competition (probably the last time they did) but didn't qualify to defend it through league position. UEFA ducked the issue deferring it to the League, as they "nominate competition entrants" (remember - it's England's choice to give a Europa place to League Cup winners, but give it back to the league if the winner already qualifies for CL, rather than to the runner up).

Anyway, can't remember the team in Spain that "took" the last CL slot, but they were bought off by a combination of the League and Real Madrid to swap their CL slot for Real's Europa League spot. There's probably a report if you look online, but it was something like £25m, or more.

When it happened again, Brian Barwick (RS season ticket holder) was Chairman of the Premier League, and to be fair, declared an interest and dodged the decision, bouncing it back to UEFA who gave us an unprecedented FIVE slots for the CL that season.

Had we been offered a huge financial incentive by the FA and RS to swap places, what do you think our board would / should have done? Hindsight is 20:20 of course.

Instead that approach was deemed less than clean (ok for the Spaniards though remember), we got a really "unfortunate" draw to eventual semi-finalists and a referee coaxed out of retirement for one match, and UEFA finally introduced the rules to prevent it happening again.

Tottenham were in exactly the same position as us when Chelsea won a couple of years back vs Bayern - and under the new rules they went into the Europa.

(Sorry to go off topic).

Back on topic - Andy Gray - appreciate his catalysing influence in that team at the time. Legend - not in my definition, but in the expanded concept mentioned above - probably.

Surely Ray Wilson ?
Evertons only World Cup Winner (albeit Bally joined us afterwards)

He would be my automatic choice

He'd stroll into any top side today

Did you keep any of that stuff. I still have the gear I wore to Rotterdam and Wembley in 85. One outfit for six days, was a bit minty when I got home.

Got it out to show my son a few years ago, Benetton rugby shirt, Diadora Borgs and Everton/ Celtic bobble hat. He laughed his fucking head off!

Before Evertonians wore "Ski Hats" no-one did

AFTER our Euorpean Adventure the whole world latched on (a phrase coined by the Oxford English Dictionary to commemorate Bob 30 in a Season Latchford)

Where the great tread first, the lesser are bound to follow

And albeit off-topic
Everton FC's original name as we ALL know was St Domingo's

But a well hidden fact is that following "The Great Schism" our loveable neighbours original name as an independant entity was.............
Everton Athletic

As I said
"Where the great tread first, the lesser are bound to follow"

Goodison Derby, 73-74 season, and Kevin Keegan gets hit by the equivalent of the proverbial steam train; Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the one, the only David Clements...

As for my immortals No1. need I say is Dixie. No 2 is Alex Young who raised standards, certainly in England, to a level of football so sublime it had grown men gasping in awe. My No 3 may not be univerally accepted is none other than Tim Cahill. I give him the nod because in a long period of dire football Tim had an uncanny ability to give us hope.

Many others mentioned above were part of good teams Timmy never was yet he turned a huge number of defeats or draws into wins.

I also reckon it was his contribution that kept Moyes in a job.

Heard it all now. The man is an total arsehole of a human being. I'd rather choose Gary Lineker then Gray, he has more time for Everton then Gray......

My very first 'own' football was bought at Jack Sharp.

My father who was not an overly keen football fan let alone an Evertonian had ventured to Goodison with some of his mates in the '50s and what do you think I had for Xmas – a SIZE 5 leather ball with laces and an inner tube. Great ball but when soaking wet you could break a leg kicking it!!

Always remember the name on that ball – Jack Sharp.

Following your condemnation of people who might "Get where they are through sheer hard slog", I’ve seen the light and decided to hand in my Notice. I shall now be following a more honourable route.. Right on Brothers!