I’m partly writing this to exercise a few demons as a less-than-perfect Blue, partly as a way to draw a line personally under the whole Moyes saga so that I can move on from it, and finally, hopefully to offer a little bit of insight into one reason Moyes failed, at Everton as well as Manchester United, and how we can understand that reason to move onwards and upwards as a club going forward.

Like many Blues, I’ve been basking in Schadenfreude since last Sunday: each day, the cathartic feeling of vindication and justice done growing stronger and stronger feelings that have building slowly all season, growing in intensity with each Manc humiliation until a certain peak was reached reading about Moyes’s "shock and disappointment" over his sacking in the papers today. Are these the "better things" you had moved onto, Dear David?

My dissatisfaction with Moyes started having been a supporter of the status quo up until that point the very moment it was announced that he was to be the new Man Utd manager, and yet Everton were to allow him to remain as boss for the last games of the season. "Unbelievable," I thought; I was enraged. "Let me get this straight," I thought incredulously, "he is now the manager of an enemy club, yet we are going to allow him continued access to our club secrets, players, and facilities, so that he can most effectively begin his new chapter by tapping up our players and staff, and sowing a few seeds of damage at a now rival club? You have to be joking!" And all that while giving him a send off that almost rivalled the one given by the Mancs to the all conquering Ferguson despite the fact that he had never won anything with us!

This emotion started a chain of self-reflection that exposed a lot of guilt, and turned into not a bit of bitterness, but would also evolve into a lot of resolve and optimism over the next few months.

Firstly, I started to see how I had been part of this culture of acceptance of mediocrity as a Blue. At 33 years old, I’ve pretty much grown up with Everton being shite. (Although, Ironically, I first started going the match during the cup winning run of 95.) Although I’d read about Everton’s history as a lad, and so knew full well what a big club we are, somehow the emotional turmoil of the relegation scrapes of the 90s had conditioned me to dread each new season, and to be content to reach 40 points each year so that we could live to fight another day. In my head, there was a vague idea that maybe one day investment would come, and from there we’d maybe be back to the elite, but until then we just needed to survive.

I was so passionless, so emasculated, that I even remember wishing Rooney well when we sold him to Manchester United, as I felt he deserved his chance to play with the big boys in the Champions League. I even used to cheer for Man Utd in that competition, partly because of national pride, partly as English club success would ensure more places for the Premier League, and partly because I had an unhealthy case of Stockholm syndrome, being happy with the Manc dominance just as long as they kept Liverpool off their perch. Also, most of the lads at the school I went to were either Everton or Liverpool, with only one Manc fan (ironically from Norway), so I never got into arguments with Mancs, only ever Kopites, whom, I couldnt fail but notice, could be wound up quite easily by invoking the achievements of Alex Ferguson and his red machine. So I often did. (How ashamed I feel now.)

It even got to the point, dear readers, where I allowed my own son to become a Man Utd fan. Again, passive acceptance was the root cause. Living in Japan now, and with my lad half Japanese, United were the only club shown on TV, and with Kagawa a big star out here, how could he support anyone else, I thought?

That was the low point... but then left Moyes, and along came Bobby. Thanks to my rage and self-reflection, and with the refreshing optimism and philosophy of Bobby, I woke up as if from a decade-long coma. I finally saw how Everton, and me as a fan, had been taken for a ride for so long. I finally saw the depth of insult at Man Utd cast off Phil Top 10 is a massive achievement Neville having ever been captain of our great club. I saw that Moyes and Ferguson had been using us as a feeder club and an apprenticeship for over 10 years, like some national dailys editors nephew getting fixed up at the local paper before moving on to the big time when a job became available.

I think of it now, the cast off players that came from United, and it seems Ferguson was throwing Moyes a bone or two to help out his development. And of course, there was Rooney going the other way... I wonder how hard Moyes fought to prevent that transfer? I wonder how much unspoken understanding or agreements there were between the two fellow countrymen even back then?

Of course, this collusion would become obvious when Dear David refused to sign a new contract giggling to himself, no doubt, when he fed the media cryptic comments about wanting to manage in Germany all the while confident of taking over the Old Trafford hot seat, and free to cruise through his last season at Everton thinking more about how he was going to succeed with Man Utd rather than caring about little Everton and their, to him, trivial desires for a lowly bit of silverware such as the FA Cup. How could these deluded fans expect to win anything on such a limited budget anyway? And here is where we get to Moyess big weakness.

Read about any managerial success story, and in all cases we will see that it is invariably achieved against the odds, and against the consensus opinion of the day. Can you imagine the contemporary versions of Robbie Savage or Alan Hansen predicting Nottingham Forest winning the league or European Cup at the time of failed Leeds United manager Brian Cloughs appointment back in 1975? But if you read biographies of him now you can get hints of where his success would come from. For me, it was the story of he and Peter Taylor being willing to paint the fences and drive the team coach at Hartlepool United. Or read about Fergie at St Mirren, driving around in a van fitted with a loud speaker in an attempt to exhort the locals to turn out for games.

As far as I can see, in any examples of success, whether they be in sport or business, or as far as I have learned through my own experience in life, the common denominators are that it is (a) never predicted by the consensus opinion of the ignorant masses; (b) thus taking all of the supposed experts by surprise; (c) engineered by free-thinking iconoclastic individuals with confidence in their own opinions, and the determination to drive through their vision in the face of jeers, cliche, and derision, from the Robbie Savages and other misinformed, dull, idiotic mouthpieces of the day; and (d) they do this by being absolutely focussed on the end goal of success and a willingness to do whatever it take to get there, whether that means painting fences or soliciting for fans through a loud speaker.

Now, it is easy for someone to come along and make big promises. The difference between a bullshitter and a winner is that the winner will break the promise down into actionable tasks. So, in the cases above, Fergie will promise to improve St Mirren. To do this, he knows hell need better players. To get them, he knows he needs more money. To get more money, he knows he needs more gate receipts. To get them, he goes out one day with a loud speaker and prospects for fans.

It is a principle that was put succinctly to me once by a successful nightclub owner in Roppongi, who explained that his business was each day to turn one dollar into two. It is the principle of investment and is the driving force behind any successful enterprise in life. How can we turn one dollar into two?. And the next day, two dollars into four. We can see how the effect is exponential, and this is the secret of its power. Because with this principle, one dollar can become a fortune, or in the case of a football team, Aberdeen can dominate the Old Firm, Nottingham Forest can become the best team in Europe, or Manchester United can go from being an under-achieving laughing stock to the most successful club in English football after just over two decades. And it is this very principle that the hapless Moyes did not understand.

In his 11 years at Everton, he brought stability to the club, it has to be said. He even employed the principle of turning one dollar into two, and them some, with the acquisition of such gems as Seamus Coleman. But he never understood the full potential of this way of thinking, nor his own potential, nor the potential of Everton Football Club. He was no iconoclast, no free thinker. He was as conventional as a bingo night down at the local conservative club. He was absolutely in tune with the cacophony of hackneyed drivel fed to us by the expert pundits and the media. And why not? It was all very flattering of him.

Brave, honest Dave struggling to keep the hapless Everton in the Premier League. Miracle worker Dave, working his magic in that old creaking stadium with nothing but a shoestring and a few moths in his pocket. When is Dave going to get his shot at a big club? Ungrateful, impoverished Everton are just holding him back...

Forget the fact that we plucked him from obscurity and gave him his big chance. Forget the fact that we backed him through thick and thin and more than a few bitter disappointments. Forget the fact that we made him one of the highest paid coaches in world sport. Forget that we made him famous and made him rich. And in return, he left us with not a single pot in the formally bulging Everton trophy cabinet. In an era in which teams like Wigan and Portsmouth won the FA Cup, and Swansea, Birmingham, Middlesbrough, Blackburn and Tottenham have won the League Cup, David Moyes could not lead the 4th most successful English club of all time to a single major honour. In 11 years. How can this man even sleep at night?

But again, that is the root of his problem. He never understood that success has to be made, always, against the odds. He thought that Everton was just a stepping stone, that Everton was too small a vehicle to deliver his ambition, but that once hed made the step up to better things the success would flow. Sorry David, life just doesnt work like that.

I have to laugh now reading about him being seen, in his final days at Manchester United, with self-help books such as Good to Great. This is the kind of book middle managers at banks and small time entrepreneurs read, convinced that the key to success is some esoteric secret that once they grasp will allow them to take over the world. Its sad, like some alchemist mixing nostrums in some futile effort to turn lead to gold. How did he last 11 years at a club like Everton without knowing that success is as simple as starting each day better off than you were the day before, and not ever stopping to do that until you achieve your goal of being the very best? How did we tolerate this middling, bumbling fool for so long?

But its over now. Its really, really over now that hes left United. This season has been not only the season that Ive woken up to reality, but a season of such excitement, as Roberto Martinez has shown Everton the value of looking at positives instead of negatives, of raising expectations rather than lowering them, and of doing whatever it takes to achieve success, even when it rubs the cosy consensus the wrong way. (like using the loan system to bring in better players).

This is the season I finally understood what it means to be a Blue. I feel like Ive almost gone through a religious conversion: Im a born-again Blue. I finally understand the meaning of Nil Satis Nisi Optimum. It really does mean Nothing but the best. It means we can, and should, aim to be the best, and that nothing else is acceptable. Being a Blue means aiming to win every game, and every competition we enter, and to do it in a style that will make us the envy of world football. Yes, there is a long way and a long struggle to get there, and yes, there are many challenges that we must face on the way, but as long as we as a club manager, board, players, and fans focus on turning one dollar into two; focus on continuous investment in improving our club, and as long as we ignore the ignorant consensus, believe in ourselves, and keep doing the right thing every day, then I believe that we will get there, and that the journey will be most satisfying.

Some other good news to finish is that I managed to get to a couple of games over the Christmas period, while I was back, and took my boy to the Old Lady for the first time. Anyway, it seems like his soul might be saved, as although he played it cool at the time, and in spite of the fact his first game was the 1-0 loss against Sunderland, recently he has started to wear his royal blue Everton replica kit exclusively at footy practise on the weekends, and he has learned the names of nearly all of our first team squad, with Barkley seemingly replacing Kagawa and Barcas Messi as his favourite football player. It may be only one additional Blue in my little family, but there are two of us today, where as yesterday there was only one.

Up the Toffees!

@BlueDomAsh

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Reader Comments (109)

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Gary Reeves
1 Posted 23/04/2014 at 07:41:55
What was it that did for OFM at Man Utd? Was it the dour demeanour, the big-match bottling, the transfer dithering, playing people out of position? Well it was all nailed on, really, wasnt it.

But for me his defining moment was at Carrington before the Olympiacos game. Obviously aware of rumblings of discontent, he invited the media into a training session to display their "unity". The players were doing one of those drills where a circle passes the ball around, whilst a couple try to intercept. And it became obvious in that moment that our Davey was completely out of his natural habitat gurning like Forrest Gump whilst Internationals megged him for fun.

Yes, it has to be said he should only be at Carrington or Finch Farm if hes looking through the fence. If I was you Davey Id have the Summer off, then Id get on the phone to Stenhousemuir!

Rob Teo
2 Posted 23/04/2014 at 15:47:10
One talking point that has emerged from Moyes’s sacking is the Glazers’ reluctance to hand over a 150 million pound transfer kitty to a man who’s unable to motivate his players. Over the past 10 months, Moyes has also consistently highlighted the need to overhaul the Man Utd squad with new players something he often alluded to as Everton boss when he would compare our players to Marks and Spencer and use that as an excuse/reason for our inability to finish above 7th/6th.

To his credit, Moyes is great at unearthing cheap bargains and generating profits from player sales to fund new purchases. On the flip side, it’s well-documented that Moyes has seldom been able to get the most out of any player purchase above 5M (except perhaps for Baines and arguably Fellaini).

Now, what if the reason Blue Bill and the rest of the Everton board have been withholding from Moyes a huge transfer kitty because they knew long ago that Moyes wasn’t the man to spend it on the right players? What if they saw Moyes as an excellent bargain-hunter that he was, but not the astute marquee-signing manager who could be trusted to spend well on a huge transfer kitty (like how the Glazers are now realising)?

It would be interesting to see if Roberto is given significant funding should he take us to the Champions League, and if so, would that make Blue Bill an astute chairman and good judge of managers?

Chris Morris
3 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:23:27
He failed because he’s shit when it matters most
Brin Williams
4 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:24:48
Well you sure as hell ’exercised’ those demons - now try exorcising them.

Shane Corcoran
5 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:27:54
So, anyone looking forward to the game at the weekend or are we all too worn out laughing at/getting over/exorcising all things related to David Moyes and his many aliases?
Lee Gray
6 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:31:44
Sometimes in life you get shafted, sometimes in life you get what you deserve... David Moyes got both.

Heard the song? "You can fool some people sometimes".....A heartfelt thanks Sir Alex.

Steavey Buckley
7 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:32:58
Biggest problem with Moyes he is a very cautious man when it comes to managing football clubs. He is aware that the opposition can score at any time, so, sets up his teams to prevent them. When Everton were crying out for more creativeness from mid-field last season, by over looking the immensely talented Ross Barkley, he kept playing Osman and Phil Neville. Neville was so bad in the end, he retired at the end of last season. Osman has somehow been rejuvenated by playing in a more advanced free role this season, when everyone should recognise he is a liability when tracking back with his unlikely pass backs.
Mike Byrne
8 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:15:25
Makes me wonder who the ’marque’ names supposedly offered to Moyes but turned down over recent years were.
Nigel Gregson
9 Posted 23/04/2014 at 17:01:15
@BlueDomAsh Top top article. I sent something in along very very similar lines, but slight less articulate and slightly more colourful language (probably why it didnt get published). My points very similar to yours. Congratulations on your boy finally seeing the right path.
Malcolm Joyner
10 Posted 23/04/2014 at 17:05:04
Evertonians continue to be obsessed by Moyes. As someone commented recently, the man has got almost more exposure since he left us than when he was our (very capable) manager.

As someone who admired his work here and was surprised that he could not make the step up to a mega club - seemingly trading his regular seventh for us for similar status at Old Trafford - I think he should now be consigned to history.

Martinez, his more than able successor here, is currently enjoying ’all the love’ of Evertonians but, no doubt, will see how fast the worm turns should he encounter a period of less than positive results.

In the meantime, perhaps we should concentrate our energy on cheering our lads on to at least a Europa place.

Phil Bellis
11 Posted 23/04/2014 at 16:55:50
Firstly, I DO understand why many younger fans bought into the "plucky liitle Everton"
I’ve been told so many times that
it’s all about money
it’s a different world now
Clough couldn’t do it nowadays
you need a billionaire
it’s not a level playing field

and so on and so on

My counter-argument has been based around a belief that the right man with vision, ambition, tenacity and nous could take a group of good players and mould them into a team in excess of the ability of its individuals
Yes, a decent stating position and some cash will accelerate the process

Throughout our history, our success has been sporadic and cyclic; us believers in Nil Satis may have become a dying breed but, through all the bad times, I rertained hope that our day would come again; if too late for me, then for the generation who have never seen great Everton sides

Illogical? So, what has being an Evertonian got to do with logic?

Hopefully, Roberto is the man and we’ll get there
He said the other day, "success in football just doesn’t "occur", you have to have a dream, a vision"

by the by...Nobody celebrates like Evertonians - nobody (have a look at the Pathe 66 Final clips and homecoming on YouTube)

Trevor Thompson
12 Posted 23/04/2014 at 17:34:26
Moyes is a cautious manager; he’d rather go for a draw than try to win but lose.
I can’t remember what year but Liverp**l had a player sent off and instead of going for it he still got us playing cautiously. He famously said we’d do well to get out of Manchester alive; It sums the man up in my opinion.
Alan Williams
13 Posted 23/04/2014 at 17:49:03
Thanks Dom, a really well balanced and articulate read. Having your son support the blues and stand/sit next to you at a match is truly magical, it’s what we are all about. Living in Japan has certainly made you more in tune with National philosophy when writing this article maybe even the genre of Nihonjinron has touched you.
Chris Davies
14 Posted 23/04/2014 at 17:59:53
Excellent article. Great read, thanks
Peter Warren
15 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:12:17
The one thing I always admired Mkyes for was his ethics and morals. I though he was straight as an arrow and admired his honesty. What did it for me with Moyes was when the Spurs job came up and Linekar was basically asking him if he would take it if offered.

Moyes was so keen it was embarrassing. Clearly he felt he was too good for us by then. I realised the the talk in the past about being concerned about whether he was stale and therefore didn’t sign his contract on past for that reason was bollocks He hadn’t been settled for years and had only signed because of money - this despite saying fans getting ripped off and players should take 20% cut. Last season he then contradicted himself from years before by saying not signing a contract was not unsettling for players.

After he left he got worse, grinning like the cat got the cream, being a conee hypocrite in terms of jumping ship to something "better" despite comments after Pienaar transfer and most notably saying he wouldn’t have stood in a players way to better their career despite his actions during the Lescott transfer. Then defending players like Young when diving .... Whilst a. Hypocrite before he just went even worse and believed his own hype.

I don’t think it’s sour grapes (&if it is so be it) but I can’t help but feel glad he’s been taken down a few pegs

Dave Brierley
16 Posted 23/04/2014 at 17:59:45
Nice article Dom. You’ve pretty well nailed Moyes and his shortcomings.
It’s funny how so many of us were (and some still are) full of admiration for the mediocrity he served up during his 11 years. I guess it goes back to our abject form when he first arrived but there’s really no excuse for me as I have 60 years experience as a supporter and have therefore seen the real highs as well as the mundane and lows.
Congrats on getting your boy on board.
Dave Williams
17 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:12:51
Sorry chaps but I can’t agree that Moyes failed here . Cast your minds back to the state we were in when he took over, the old has-been players we had and some of the sub standard ones he had to work with. We had the shell of Gazza, the totally spent Ginola, Mark Pembridge, Scott Gemmill, Nyarko, Alexandersson. Maybe he bought a couple of those himself(?)but what we had and what we could afford was very poor. Bit by bit using what limited funds he had Moyes built this club back up from genuine depths to top 8 regulars .

Certainly he reached his limit a couple of years ago and settled for safeguarding his carefully manufactured reputation with the media whilst he waited for "the call" but what he achieved up to that point made him the best Everton manager since Howard and I shudder to think where we would be now if we had stuck with Smith instead.

I was delighted to see Roberto appointed and he has shown Moyes folly in thinking that we had reached a peak .I strongly resented Moyes antics over Baines and Fellaini and the statement about how we were just thankful to get away from OT alive when playing there really showed why we never once won at the Big 4 clubs . I never like to see anyone lose their job regardless of the huge compo he will get but there is some poetic justice in all of thisbut all of that said,I don’t see how he failed at Everton. ok he won nothing but did he leave us in a much better position than when he joined us? - that to me is the key question and putting my feelings to one side I would have to say that he did but thank god we now have Roberto!

Matt Traynor
18 Posted 23/04/2014 at 17:27:34
Rob #924 "Now, what if the reason Blue Bill and the rest of the Everton board have been withholding from Moyes a huge transfer kitty because they knew long ago that Moyes wasn’t the man to spend it on the right players?"

You are joking right? Suggesting Bill and Co have had millions lined up for players and are just waiting for the right manager??

So the transfer funds are ring-fenced????

’sake.

Nick Entwistle
19 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:31:07
Agree Matt,

Given the transfer funds in his last four seasons, it may well have been a wasted time for Everton, but for Moyes as well. No wonder he wanted out.

I know its bash Moyes for all his worth time on TW but if we had Lukaku last season, we’d be as close to top4 as we are now. And no one expected Jelavic to turn into Big Vic.

6m+ on loans this season? Luxury!

Ben Jones
20 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:36:02
Not sure I agree with you Nick.

Agree with you Lukaku is one major difference, but the other is Barry and McCarthy which we attained by selling Fellaini.

Control the midfield and their understanding means the full backs can go further forward. Think they have been a huge influence.

In terms of the original article, think his conduct with Baines and Fellaini is key. If he wasn’t so hypocritical (because of his anger towards City when they tried to buy Lescott so close to the end of the transfer window) he probably wouldn’t have been booed on Sunday, and not as much bitterness against him on this site.

I hope he gets back in the game with another job, and given enough time to see what he can do with another team. But he should have left us after 2008.

Dave White
22 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:29:26
Great article Dom, took the words right out of my mouth.
Matt Traynor
23 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:44:15
Nick #971, I said on one of the other threads that suggest Moyes stayed a few years too long for Everton, that I thought he stayed a few years too long for his own good. The "plucky" tag, "punching above our weight" label etc may annoy us all, but the fact is that whilst we are where we are we’ll be seen as a stepping stone by hungry ambitious managers, as well as players.

When he was obviously having 2nd thoughts in 2008 over signing the new contract (was he expecting Fergie to go then?) perhaps he should’ve gone. The stories go that he had coveted the Man U job since he first started in management, so maybe the 11 years at Everton under a board of relative paupers was too long in his development.

James Hughes
24 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:57:35
I just wish everyone would let all this talk about Moyes stop, enough already.
He arrived at a time convenient for both parties his departure was not the same.

I don’t care what he did at Manure apart from he insulted this fine club and showed lack of respect to the people who put him on the map.

Leave it be folks I want to talk about Everton not Moyes

WE ARE BORN- NOT MANUFACTURED, COYB, COYB COYB

Ian Tunstead
25 Posted 23/04/2014 at 19:27:21
So basically you jumped on the bandwagon when everyone seemed to back Moyes and now you have jumped on the other bandwagon when it appears everyone has wrote Moyes off. You make an interesting point though about Clough failing at Leeds but then going on to greater things at Nottingham Forest but fail to recognise that it is possible that Moyes being sacked at Man Utd might lead to bigger and better things for Moyes at another club.

I suppose you will scoff at the thought just like Robbie Savage and the likes as you explained in your piece. The point is, SAF, Wenger and Brendan didnt have the greatest of first seasons but have gone on to have success. Is it not possible that Moyes could turn things around in a season just as he did at Everton when we finished 17th and then finished 4th the following season without the likes of rooney and graveson? It is still far too early to judge Moyes success and failures.

It was always believed that the Utd job was going to be a poison chalice to any manager who took over after SAF, Im sure who ever takes the helm next will face the same difficulties and will struggle to make to top 4 without huge investment and a complete rebuild.

Darren Hind
26 Posted 23/04/2014 at 18:47:05
Dont care why Moyes failed at Man U. But I have a good idea why he failed at Everton. He simply didnt have it, just like the guy before him and the guy before that . . and the guy before that. Big Joe delivered a trophy ok, but by the time he walked away he too was embrolled in a relegation fight,
We just dont employ top class managers. How could we? Since Sir John left weve always had second rate chairman why would any top class coach work for us?

The question is will the current manager fail too?

IMO The only decent thing Moyes did was assemble a top group of players, he did it a couple of times during his decade of "stability", trouble was, once he had them, he didnt know what the fuck to do. with them.

Martinez has the best chance of success any Everton manager has had for decades. He not only inherited one of the best defences in the country, but in Stones and Barkley, he has inherited the best young English prospects seen for years and while its true he didnt have millions to spend. In Lukaku, Dell boy and Barry he has enjoyed the services of around 40 million quids of talent .

Newcastle and Villa have occasionaly competed with the big boys. but not this year, they are nowhere to be seen, United and Spurs have been shambolic by their usual standards .. . even Arsenal have taken hefty batterings and their fans have been screaming for whenger to be removed.

I really dont belief there will ever again be so few teams challenging for a Champions league place. Surely all the clubs mentioned will be stronger next season and we cant even guarentee that we we will still have Stones and/or Ross - We all know Kenwrights kecks will role up if somebody flashes the cash . . and what about the three loanees ? Who says theyll stay ?

Logic would suggest this is our greatest, possibly our only chance.

I dont care which manager fails at another clubs, I just hope Martinez doesnt join the growing list of failures at ours.

Its gonna be mighty embarresing if all we ve got to show
for all this gloating, is our name being thrown into the same hat as Man Us when they make the draw for the Tursday night cup

Paul Tran
27 Posted 23/04/2014 at 19:56:07
Interesting point on Lukaku, Nick.

Thats the point - he didnt get him. All that encyclopaedic knowledge of good players and he didnt get him.

There was a bloke on the left wing called Naismith last season. Hes scored a few this season, hasnt he? Because hes playing in his right position, with a balanced team sround him. Maybe hes playing for a manager who gets the best out of his players.

Moyes bought them, Martinez has got more out of them. Thats I.

Anto Byrne
28 Posted 23/04/2014 at 19:51:22
Moyes was untouchable at Everton, he could guarantee 40 points each season and maintain our premiership status. For the club stakeholders this is very important because championship football is not a consideration. Moyes set us up not to lose and in his last season we had a record haul of some 18 drawn games.

We endured a bland brand of football that was predictable and generally unpleasant on the eye. Had Man Utd not come in for him I really do think he would still be in charge and he would be telling us this is as good as it gets for Everton fans. I am the Moysiah, I am God, no-one will question my authority. Without me you are going nowhere.

All I can say is thank you Sir Alex Ferguson you have put Everton back were they belong.

David Cornmell
29 Posted 23/04/2014 at 20:36:16
Five star read, really well thought out and articulate.
Nick Entwistle
30 Posted 23/04/2014 at 20:39:54
Did he want him? With Jelavic ending the season on fire, probably not.

I dont know if what you say about Martinez getting more out of players is true. The way they play is different of course. But is Howard, Baines, Jags, Distin, Coleman, Mirallas, Pienaar, Osman playing better as individuals?

Thats my point on Lukaku, wed have been in the hunt as we are now were he with us last season. And though some may forget, we took the fight for 4th to game 35. And that was with a Fergie Utd and a decent Spurs.

Im not diminishing Robbies good season, but what hes delivering in terms of competing in the league is promoted as incredible, and what Moyes delivered was apparently bullcrap. Yet the difference is that what comes from having a decent striker.

We were 10pts off 4th last season, how many is Lukaku worth over Jely and Vic?

Kevin Tully
31 Posted 23/04/2014 at 21:14:02
Nick, I would say without a shadow of doubt, Jelavic, Anichebe and Heitinga would all be regulars for us this season if OFM was still polluting the dugout.
Julian Exshaw
32 Posted 23/04/2014 at 21:34:10
sorry for being a thick git, but what does OFM mean? I obviously wasnt paying attention in toffeeweb class that day. I guess M is for Moyes, I can assume "F" is a derivative of the infamous F-word but o?? Overrated, obnoxious??? Please help,answer on a postacard...whatever!!
Ian Tunstead
33 Posted 23/04/2014 at 21:34:04
You would say that though wouldnt you, Kevin, just as I would say the opposite. The truth is we just dont know and could both be wrong. The fact is it was more to do with Mirallas that we got Lukaku than Martinez and it is a fact that Steven Naismith was only just returning from a serious injury and long lay off last season so he was never going to be firing on all cylinders.

What I do know is a lot of fans on here were giving Moyes a good bashing for playing the likes of Steven and Seamus. Good job he never listened.

Patrick Murphy
34 Posted 23/04/2014 at 21:42:45
Julian - Our Former Manager. Although I think it should now stand for Ole Football Martinez.
Ross Edwards
35 Posted 23/04/2014 at 21:25:47
Youre all well aware by now of my view on David Moyes, both while he was here and on his destroy Man Utd mission. He was out of his depth at Utd, lost the dressing room, lost the board, showed his total lack of tactical awareness as he showed here, and thats that.

But, back to the point made in the OP. Did Moyes fail at Everton? Well, I think you all know my views on that.

He did fail here. Fair enough, he gave us stabikity and kept us consistently in the top 8, I wont argue that fact. But this is the 4th most successful club in England, should we have just rolled along with 7th and maybe a run to the 5th round of a cup before throwing it away by him bottling big games?

He met Bills basic expectations, but not ours. He thought that wed be happy with a 7th placed finish every year. His mid table mentality, his negative attitude have all been swept away by Martinez, who basically came in here, picked the club up and said Look, we are Everton, we belong in the top 4, we dont need billionaire investors to compete, and his awareness of oyr history and stature is wonderful to see and enjoy.

Moyes and Bill, in league with the media, convinced us that our glass ceiling was 7th, and it was un-penetrable without money. Martinez has shown that we can and will break through that psychological barrier that had been entrenched in our minds for 11 years.

He failed and bottled big games, we started badly in over half the seasons in his tenure, the football was poor, negative. We were predictable, his tactical awareness was almost non existant most of the time, snd in the last 3 years we stagnated and needed a change.

That change came, amd in Bobby, we are seeing the best football at Goodison for a long time, we are unpredictable, our counter attacking ability is breathtaking, a bit like Wenger in the early years. He has tactical flexibility, showing that he has a Plan B, and a C if we need it.

Above all, he has brought positivity. He has cast aside the no money excuse. We can mix it wirh the rich kids, we can get top 4, where we belong. He understands our history and uses it as motivation, like Rodgers is doing at Liverpool to great success.

Of course, Moyes should have got 18 months in my view, but he had been found out as a man without a plan, little tactical awareness, out of his depth. He is a mid table manager, think of him as a Lexus.He meets your average expectation. But hes dull, dour, middle of the road, uninspiring. Martinez on the other hand, is like a Ferrari. Fast,exciting, unpredictable.

Moyes will be back, probably at Newcastle or Villa. His reputation is forever damaged and he certainly wont manage a top club again, at hone or abroad. As you know, I have no sympathy for the man whatsoever. He shouldnt have even got that job.

Lordy Hughes
36 Posted 23/04/2014 at 22:01:09
Great article. Top marks fella. Glad you (and your lad) feel better now. Cathartic for us older readers too!
Trevor Lynes
37 Posted 23/04/2014 at 21:48:29
Having lived through great title winning times and even that dismal short relegation period when we were REALLY bad. Incidentally we had two centre forwards during those terrible years; Catterick and Jock Dodds (Dodds was the better one).

I must admit I really enjoyed this well written article happily devoid of swearing and mostly words spelled correctly. Moyes however succeeded at EFC as the board who took him on were quite happy with survival with any extras a bonus.

I agree with many of the comments in the article as Moyes did let himself down by losing his integrity as far as I am concerned by not coming clean and then complaining when we did not give him the players he coveted for a pittance.

I dont blame him for leaving if he thought he was the right man for Man Utd, but I blame him for hypocrisy he displayed when expecting his former club to cave in to the mighty Mancs.

Roberto has brought optimism to this great club and I want him to remain and establish a team that can compete at the top. So far we seem to have a manager with honesty who never hides from the media. Who does not get sent to the stands or carry on like a spoiled brat complaining about referees. A Spaniard who is more articulate than virtually every other manager in the division.

Martinez is the best ambassador this club has had and I do not believe that anyone can argue that particular point.I just hope that he remains with us long enough to leave a legacy of value.

Mark Frere
38 Posted 23/04/2014 at 22:19:13
Spot on Ross (036). A very accurate and well put together post. Its nice to see you posting on here again....
Ross Edwards
39 Posted 23/04/2014 at 22:20:33
Cheers Mark mate. Ive heard about a number of departures from the site recently, so I thought Id throw my hat back into the TW ring as it were...
Dick Fearon
40 Posted 23/04/2014 at 22:16:31
Dom, It matters not that you exercise, exorcise or excise your demons you make an excellent job of it.

What pleased me was how Martinez responded to his tactical blooper in the C Palace game. The Mancs game proved my point that you can mix the long and short styles to good effect.

Against Palace we piss farted around with short balls that led to blind alleys. Against the Mancs we were much more direct and went straight for the jugular.

Ian Tunstead
41 Posted 23/04/2014 at 22:29:26
It seems evident to me that Moyes was the man who was most consistently named best of the rest and managed to put together the best group of players we have had since the mid 80s.

Roberto has taken on this excellent team and added a couple of his favourites from his previous club plus added 3 top quality players that we otherwise could not afford to bring to the club and got rid of some dead wood but even with the implosion of Man Utd and for all this mytholigical great football and tactics it looks as though we will still be given the perennial best of the rest tag.

We might have the best possesion stats or the hight total of points but its league position that counts for me. 4th is a must if we are to show any real progression.

Bill Gall
42 Posted 23/04/2014 at 22:42:36
The only thing that the sacking of Moyes has done it has got him more articles written about him on TW in a couple of days than he did the whole time he was at Everton.
Steve Carter
43 Posted 23/04/2014 at 22:48:51
Interesting article. I agree with the poster who opined that Moyes was not a failure at Everton. He came at a time when our squad was crap and, on a beer budget, consistently assembled sides that were competitive. He did get us to the Champions League and, apart from one season early on, we were never threatened by relegation.

(I digress, but we were pulled out of that principally, indeed almost single handedly, by Tim Cahills head - a reason why that guy is a true Everton legend in my opinion.)

Yeah, thats not nil satis nisi optimum thinking Steve; but Im talking about reality here people, not a motto. The hackneyed corporate wisdom is that a CEO has done pretty much all they can do come 5 years in the job, and its time to refresh. Moyes stayed too long, and was stale by the time he left.

David Cornmell
44 Posted 23/04/2014 at 23:00:31
Bill Gall, you havent been on TW very long then...!!!

If you believe you can or you cant then you will.... its that simple. Moyes didnt believe he could beat the top teams over a league season; he didnt believe he could turn over the top teams on their patch. So he couldnt.

Martinez does believe he can... and he has.

Martinez believes in his own ability and the players ability. Did anyone see him when he was on the box during the World Cup draw, and Lineker made some derogatory remark about a poll that showed four percent or something of England fans thought England could win the World Cup next year?

Straightaway Bobby asks him "Why not?"

It really is as simple as some see problems and others see opportunities.

Eugene Ruane
45 Posted 23/04/2014 at 23:28:22
Ian Tunstead (059) - maybe the most desperate I wasnt wrong! post Ive ever seen on TW.

Waffle, murky the waters, semantics, yeah-but-no-but nonsense.

You begin - "It seems evident to me that Moyes was the man who was most consistently named best of the rest and managed to put together the best group of players we have had since the mid 80s"

Yeah he was...by the exact same people who are now lining up to tell us hes shite and wasnt up to the job - so what does THAT tell you?

Oh and your best group of players isnt actually a fact, its your opinion and not one I go along with (Ill take Joe Royles 95 winners to beat Moyess demotivated chokers)

You continue - "Roberto has taken on this excellent team and added a couple of his favourites from his previous club plus added 3 top quality players that we otherwise could not afford to bring to the club and got rid of some dead wood but even with the implosion of Man Utd and for all this mytholigical great football and tactics it looks as though we will still be given the perennial best of the rest tag"

Well we understand youre desperately clinging to your Im not wrong position but what none of these facts take into consideration is that Everton supporters are singing songs about The School Of Science and that season ticket renewals are up by over 200% - SOMETHING has changed.

Finally you inform us - "We might have the best possession stats or the highest total of points but its league position that counts for me. 4th is a must if we are to show any real progression".

Luckily, nobody is arsed about what counts for you and most see progression as us now being a team who will take a gun to a gunfight (ie: United away)

I believe your view is simply past posts damage limitation.

However if you REALLY see things that way..

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2520012032/hE5B83040/

Derek Thomas
46 Posted 24/04/2014 at 01:50:14
Well in Dom good points well made and with a happy ending to boot.

But I think Michael and Lyndon should ring the bell for last orders on the whole M word thing and we as fans get our heads around the fact from D day in M month that the towels are going on.

Support for all we are worth for the last 3 game and see where all the cards fall after the last game.

Get your holidays out of the way.

Yes if we want, use the subject as a filler (along with endless transfer speculation) during the dog days of the close season, because nothing much is going to happen until after the World Cup Final.

My tip for what its worth, is the towels go on the M subject at the opening world cup game... for 6 months min.

And we all pray daily to our respective gods that Roberto doesnt get 2nd season syndrome.

Over to you, Michael.

Si Cooper
47 Posted 24/04/2014 at 02:23:11
I take great exception to some trying to label our likely (fingers crossed, touch wood, etc) 5th or possible 4th place this season as merely the same as previous best of the rest finishes.

The landscape has changed markedly in recent seasons, and finishing ahead of Spurs and United and within touching distance of the top four should place us firmly within the top seven, and not simply atop a pile of 14 no-hopers.

I dont expect due respect from the moronic media and their believers, but I would hope for more from our blessed ranks.

Jamie Crowley
48 Posted 24/04/2014 at 03:17:24
Dom -

Fantastic article.

Most of Your second to last paragraph should be printed, framed, and hung in the doorway of the changing room so every player reads it before they take the pitch.

Brilliant.

"Nothing but the best". It means we can, and should, aim to be the best, and that nothing else is acceptable. Being a Blue means aiming to win every game, and every competition we enter, and to do it in a style that will make us the envy of world football. Yes, there is a long way and a long struggle to get there, and yes, there are many challenges that we must face on the way, but as long as we ... ignore the ignorant consensus, believe in ourselves, and keep doing the right thing every day, then ... we will get there, and that the journey will be most satisfying.

Michael Kenrick
49 Posted 24/04/2014 at 03:36:30
We were right there, Derek (#097), but Doms piece was so well written (if a little over-long) that we could not not post it.

But, now that Moyes has finally been put out to grass, there should be little or no need to talk about him any more.... Yea, right! Seems theres always someone who just has to tell us he saved us from relegation, he had a good eye for cheap young talent, and he left a great platform for Martinez to build upon...

There, Ive said it. Everybody knows it; so theres no more need to make posts telling us the same old thing that everyone already knows. Lets move on, and enjoy the last few games of this tremendous first season for Roberto, who has demonstrarted inside 10 months exactly what it means to be the Everton manager.

Dave Long
50 Posted 24/04/2014 at 04:08:49
Hajimemashite Dom,

Ive been in Urawa, over 16 years. My 2 young boys are mad on Everton. Always clad in blue, nobody really knows our team yet... but its coming.

Maybe you know Everton came here with Kendall in 81, they played the national team. There was even an Everton ceremonial plate in the Urawa reds shop when I first arrived... Im always asking relevant people where it went!

One of my boys is in the Urawa reds junior team, being groomed for Goodison around 2024......Where are you in Japan?

Dom Ashton
51 Posted 24/04/2014 at 04:35:56
Dave (#111),

Hajimemashite.

Ive been in Japan for 10 years, Tokyo for 7. I live out by Shinkoiwa but work in Yotsuya.

I didnt know about Howard bringing the boys out here in 81. (Year of my birth, as it happens). I tried to follow a J-league team for a while. I ruled the Reds out for obvious reasons, but perhaps I was too hasty? I tried to follow Kashiwa Reysol for a while, but gave up on them first game this season when they allowed the away fans (FC Tokyo) to sing that dreaded anthem "Youll Never Walk Alone" just before kick off, with absolutely nobody booing or trying to disrupt them. I value Japanese courtesy and civility as much as the next man, but not at the footy and not with that horrible song being sung at me, thank you very much! Its a shame about the atmosphere because the football was actually quite entertaining. I see that Reysol host the Reds this weekend.

PS. Me and a few fellow Blues started a group on Facebook last year, Tokyo Toffees

Give it a like and come along to a televised match gathering one day if you can make it. (Although I dont think there will be anymore this season as the word on the street is that the Southampton game is not being televised in Japan and of course the City game will be on too late.)

Matt Traynor
52 Posted 24/04/2014 at 04:29:11
Dave #111
If Everton ever got a Japanese player (or South Korean) it would provide a huge opportunity for our commercial prospects in Asia (which no doubt wed fail to exploit).

Anyway, when he signs his contract with Everton, make sure you stipulate its 15% cut off the commercial revenues from Japan!

Julian Exshaw
53 Posted 24/04/2014 at 06:39:38
Cheers Patrick Murphy (034) ;)
Michael Evans
54 Posted 24/04/2014 at 08:31:16
To be honest, I did subscribe for a while to the Moyes is doing a brilliant job with the resources at his disposal .... brainwashing particularly as he was a media darling for the job he was doing at little Everton.

However, the term Moyes apologist used by MK and many others on this site used to slap me in the face.

Then Tony Marshs posts about DM raged against the tide of accepting mediocrity.

Then I woke up and smelt the coffee.

Shows the importance of sites like this.

Rick Tarleton
55 Posted 24/04/2014 at 09:02:12
Gary Reeves, What have you got against Stenhousemuir?
Colin Glassar
56 Posted 24/04/2014 at 09:33:52
Ive finally got him out of my system as this has been a sort of a cleaning exercise for me. A kind of football exorcism.
I dont care what happens to him now or where he goes. For me he will be a footnote in Evertons long and glorious history.
East Stirling for me, Garry Reeves.
Bill Gall
58 Posted 24/04/2014 at 14:27:57
D.Cornmell 072 sorry but I am not new to TW.

The point I was trying to make was yes there have been people who have made various comments about D.Moyes both before and after he was Evertons manager but it seems that since he was sacked various people are now writing about the pros or cons of his managerial style and to me after the way he treated Everton when he left the only memory of him should be a photograph in a hallway with the rest of other Everon managers .

He is just a memory in Evertons past forget him.

Ian Tunstead
59 Posted 24/04/2014 at 16:16:54
Eugene you are obsessed with this whole who was right and and who was wrong non sense. Its a matter of opinion. You seem to be implying that I am wrong and you are right, How so? From very early on I suspected Moyes would get the sack from Utd, you can find it on this site in a conversation with Brian Waring.

But that does not mean he is a bad manager and it doesnt mean Martinez would do any better or anyone else for that matter. We will never no If Moyes could have turned things around if he was given time to get rid of the bad apples and bring in his own players without the egos like he did at Everton. The Utd fans and player were clearly not keen and wanted rid from the begining because he wasnt fasionable enough and didnt have a foreign enough sounding name. It was the same way the red shite couldnt wait to dig the knife into hodgson and even rodgers early on. If he was given the same time as fergie and wenger or even rodgers and the team continued to decline, then fair enough, you would have an argument. We simply dont know if Moyes was up to the job or not because he wasnt given the time to build and put his own stamp on things. Personally I dont think anyone was up to the job of stepping into fergies shoes so soon after his departure, not even the amazing Martinez.

Im sure when Clough was sacked at Leeds there were people like you who couldnt wait to say "I told you so, I was right, hes not up to it". Maybe you are right and nobody cares what I think but luckily I dont care what you or anybody else thinks either but I am entitled to my opinion and I think the site would be a lot poorer and boring if every one had the same opinion and blindly followed the lead of certain contributers. I am not one for jumping on the bandwagon or being fickle and having knee jerk reactions or behaving like sheep and being brainwashed by the media and the likes of robbie savage I would rather listen to an expert like Alex Ferguson. I think Moyes will probably get the spurs job and I believe he would do a better job than than Sherwood and avb and even harry. I dont think its wise to start gloating and back slapping or proclaiming you are right just yet. We had a false dawn before when Moyes finished 4th. Lets just hope Martinez can keep hold of lukaku for evertons sake and lets not forget that even Newcastle and Pardew were competing for 4th place the other season so lets no get too carried away just yet.

Steve Pugh
60 Posted 24/04/2014 at 17:29:31
David Moyes was a great manager throughout the first few years, average for the rest and a total dick as soon as he left.

Done.

The End

Nicholas Ryan
61 Posted 24/04/2014 at 18:46:00
Dear Dom ... While exorcising your demons is usually a good idea, exercising them is usually not!
Anthony Jones
62 Posted 24/04/2014 at 19:07:04
Why Moyes failed at both Man Utd and Everton:

because he came to management over 40 years too late.

Fin

Keith Simmonds
63 Posted 24/04/2014 at 19:13:54
He didnt fail at either club. Never got the chance to. The ungrateful Blues thankfully are in the minority
Ross Edwards
64 Posted 24/04/2014 at 19:22:36
Keith, firstly, we arent ungrateful as you put it, and secondly, doesnt taking a team that won the title by 11 points to 7th, missing out in Europe for the first time in 32 years, constitute as a failure?

Im not disputing your opinion or seeking a confrontation, Im just offering an alternative viewpoint to your post.

Matt Muzi
65 Posted 24/04/2014 at 19:24:43
OFM took us from regular relegation battles, to a solid top 6 side in the prem, which he deserves credit for.

He bottled it the big games & certainly towards the last few seasons was that predictable, it was painful.

Where I feel he got his comeuppance, he held us ransom in the final stages of his contract, left us knowing we wouldnt get a penny, took our good wishes & thanks and showed us complete disregard by believing he could steal our better players & wed accept whatever he offered.

As weve seen this season the southern based media clearly have it in for us, with all the loan system drivel. OFM started to believe in the hype they spun about his ability & the job he was doing at PLUCKY, CASH STRAPPED EVERTON."

Well you reap what you sow!!

Mike Price
66 Posted 24/04/2014 at 16:40:41
Really enjoyed the article.

Moyes did a decent job for a couple of years relative to the abnormally bad period we had just endured, and then he manipulated the chairman, club and fan base. I turned against him when he bought Beattie and saw him as a PE teacher, a dinosaur, dull, boring, self serving, bottling, sanctimonious, expectation lowering twat. Hes been a Liverpool fans ultimate dream which says it all really.

He was a failure here and its driving me mad how the media keep on referring to the fact he got the Utd job after the amazing job he did at little old Everton.

Martinez has achieved more already and hes not had a season yet. Hes the opposite of the Moyes list above. Hes improved our image, raised expectations to where they should be, entertained us and the world, and best of all has given us all hope for the future. I feel that Moyes stole a decade of my Everton supporting life and like most of you, thats a big part of my life.

Tony Abrahams
67 Posted 24/04/2014 at 16:36:43
Ian, 059. A record points haul in the managers first season isnt real progression?

I think we all want Champions League because of what it will bring to the club but even the Europa League would be real progression, surely?

Next season will read 2014-15 and as far as Im aware this will be the first time this decade that Everton will have qualified for Europe through their league position. SO, NEEDLESS TO SAY, BUT THIS LOOKS LIKE REAL PROGRESSION TO ME!

Ian Tunstead
69 Posted 24/04/2014 at 23:10:57
Tony over the last 10 years we have been hovering between 4th and 8th, usually finishing as "best of the rest" in the European places. Unfortunatley we couldnt take that final step and break into the top 4 consistantly, we did it once but didnt get past the qualifying stage.

So for me progression means taking everton a step further than Moyes which means breaking the glass cieling by getting into the top 4 and getting past the qualifying stage. For me points are like possession stats. It looks good on paper and suggests that you are doing well but the real stat that counts is the score at the end of the match or the position in the table at the end of the season.

Stuart Gray
72 Posted 25/04/2014 at 08:42:03
Like this article. Thanks.
David Ellis
73 Posted 25/04/2014 at 09:03:52
Moyes did well for us, but behaved badly towards us after he left. Martinez looks like he can take us to a higher level still.

Moyes may well pop up again at a club with similar budget as Everton (Newcastle or Villa for example) and I worry that he will bring such a club into the top 8 battles on a consistent basis, in the same way he did at Everton. Worse still if he does so we will still keep on having whole threads dedicated to him. Perhaps if we sacked Martinez we would then lose our Moyes obession (but I doubt it).

And Eugene (080) - there is no way that the team of 95 (surely the worst team to win the FA Cup in living memory) would stand a chance against any of the Moyes teams from 2005 onwards.

Sam Hoare
74 Posted 25/04/2014 at 09:33:34
Many people seem to think that Moyes failure at Man U is evidence that he also failed at Everton. It is not. They are very different clubs with totally different situations. So please lets do away with all this we were right and you were wrong bollocks.

Moyes is certainly a good manager if not a great one and most likely he will be managing a club that is competing with us quite soon. I think irrelevant of his somewhat acrimonious departure many people underestimate the good he did for our club and I think Ian Tunstead has a point in that although the football and mood have certainly improved this season we have yet to see the end results definitively progress ie trophies and league finish. Of course if we come 4th then that progress will be concrete but if we come 5th then the end result will not be as much as a step forward as the mood and football on display have at times suggested.

Nick Entwistle
75 Posted 25/04/2014 at 09:58:27
Ian, record points totals...

The only top 10 teams who will not improve on last season are Spurs and Utd. Chelsea currently have equal pts, City are 4 behind and Arsenal 3. Its safe to presume they will surpass last years, and everyone else has already done so.

For large parts of the season more than half the league were on relegation form so I dont think its unfair to say the overall quality of the Prem this term has been pretty dire.

As you say, its positions that count, not pts.Though it has meant happier times at 4:45.

Ellen West
76 Posted 25/04/2014 at 09:54:17
Nice article Dom. Like a lot of Everton fans, I too had been brain washed into believing that Moyes was the best Everton could get as a manager. The question that would arrive during a phone-in after yet another dour performance was usually if he left, who would we replace him with?. Due to this, I along with many other match going fans were less than vocal about bettering ourselves with a more talented manager. I felt that the match going fans were in the best position to make their frustration heard (Kenwright would have been glad that he wasnt being blamed) and we could have been rid of Moyes a few years ago. Hopefully, we have learnt a lesson and though we should give Martinez time, we should not be duped again. If we want to be seen as a big four club, we should start acting like one and quickly remove the blocks that are holding us back.

Saying that, I appreciate that we took a few games to get moving under our new system (something that should not happen next season) and Martinez (remembering that he was apart of a team relegated) still managed to get his hands on some wonderful loan signings = though the jury is still out on Dell Boy. Next season, I would like to see Martinez improve on what he has done so far. Bring in better players on loan and I would also like to see Kone have a decent season and Ovey recover and get back to his best. By this time next year, we will be in a better position to judge whether or not Champions league football will be a regular fixture. If we are still holding the position of the best of the rest, then Martinez tenure may have to be short lived.

Moyes, the board and the match-going fans had forgotten about the importance of our motto. Hopefully, we can now and for the future, wear it on our chests with pride.

Anto Byrne
77 Posted 25/04/2014 at 09:46:20
I think Moyes was too nice for his own good. As we said on this site for years, he needed to a grow a set. He would have had to be absolutely ruthless at Man Utd and those aging prima donnas should have been moved on last summer. He needed to stamp his authority and show who was boss. He really needed to embrace the Man Utd way of playing, it wasnt like he didnt have some quality players in that squad.

Under SAF they always found a way to win and could mix it if they needed to. They had the mongrel element that teams need and they had a manager who would not accept defeat under any circumstance. He would never admit they were shit but find an excuse with the ref or the linesman or the weather or a car back firing in the car park. The players were so shit scared of him they either performed or he fucked them off.

I dont think Moyes knew what his best team was and was continually berated for playing players out of position. He had Mata as a winger FFS. Its a real shame he got the sack as he would have had a 200mil warchest to rebuild. Would he learn from his mistakes? Well, we never saw it at Everton, so its unlikely. I doubt he was ever the right man for Everton to take us above the tag of under-dogs, battlers, paupers, plucky little Everton. he seemed to excel in this comfort zone as there was no pressure.

Man Utd are the biggest club in the world their stock price is related to the football results. He was probably just out of his depth and it was as proved too much for the man. I hope he gets a gig at a place like Stoke or Fulham maybe Southampton if they lose their manager to Spurs. Hey he might be able to do a job at Spurs although its unlikely they want dour defensive football served up each week? It could be that we have seen the last of David Moyes its not like he needs the money?

Ian Tunstead
78 Posted 25/04/2014 at 11:19:16
I think in the short term there has been progression on last season, altough we have less assets. In the long-term though its still far too early to say. Im sure when we finished 4th 10 years ago those who backed Moyes thought they were right. 10 years on, the opposite is probably true. We may have to wait another 10 years to see if it changes back again.
Phil Roberts
79 Posted 25/04/2014 at 11:24:06
Cant win at the top teams

City Lost
Chelsea Lost
Spurs Lost
Arsenal Drew
L********l Lost

And United under a "crap" manager we finally won.

Gun to a gunfight maybe but we still didnt win any of them - but we have progressed.

Jim Knightley
80 Posted 25/04/2014 at 11:49:41
Moyes took a a bottom sixth/seventh side, and turned us into a top six/seven side with the smallest transfer budget in the division. In what world is that failure? Some comments stink of a lack of football knowledge, and a lack of relativity. We were shit in the decade before he come, do not forget that (I know the article doesnt). Go look up our finishes in the years before Moyes, for those with holey memories. Part of the reason weve had such a good season this year, is because of Moyes. And even the season this year will not result in fourth imo, or a trophy. Again.

Im glad we have Martinez, Im glad with the way things have gone, and I wasnt sad to see Moyes sacked at United, because he acted like a twat in the summer towards us. But Moyes was great for us, and we for him. He brought this club back to right end of the league, without a pot to piss in. And those demonising him retrospectively should remember that. I will have some respect for Moyes for that, even if alot of he has disappeared because of what has happened after he has left. He was too dour, too downbeat...but he did very well in the league because of the considerable financial restraints he worked under. His signings can flourish under Martinez, and we can enjoy a new age. But we only enjoy it, because Moyes was a success. If he hadnt been, wed still be floundering at the wrong end of the league. The likes of Coleman, Oviedo, Stones, Baines, Distin, Jags, Mirallas and Pienaar were all brought here by him, and I think Martinez can bring to the younger players what Moyes lacked...but, we will see yet if Martinez can match Moyes record in the transfer market, and how, as the seasons past by, Martinez replaces the defenders brought to the club by Moyes. There are alot of ifs yet, and I wouldnt be too condemn Moyes a failure. He gave us a much better decade than the one before it, and Im hoping Martinez does the same. If he does, we will all be very happy Evertonians.

Eugene Ruane
82 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:07:51
From Giggs press conference - "Its going to be my philosophy. Its going to be a Manchester United philosophy. Passion, speed, tempo, be brave, imagination. Work hard but most of all enjoy it. If you enjoy it, you can express yourself more."

Translation - Fuck misery guts and his cautious presbo-ball

Nick Entwistle
83 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:12:43
If Utd players are suddenly going to infuse passion speed and tempo on Giggs request, then theyve been playing favourites with personalities, not giving their best at the biggest club on the planet. Roy Keane was right. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Patrick Murphy
84 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:33:38
This is the thing that infuriates me about Man U and the media no respect for Everton FC whatsoever, in an interview with CNN former coach:

Meulensteen said he had tried to impress upon Moyes that Everton, the club he was leaving behind, was not on the same scale as the 20-times English league winners and three times European champions.

"Dont forget, David was a respected manager in the Premier League who worked for 11 years at Everton in a very good way.

"But I did warn him: Do you realise, after everything at Everton, youre going from a yacht to a cruise liner? Thats how big the difference will be.

Everton 9 times English Champions FA Cup finalists on 13 and 5 times FA Cup winners with one European trophy we are not Rochdale or Doncaster Rovers ffs.

Eugene Ruane
85 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:27:00
By the way Roy Keane has a nerve talking about who should be ashamed of themselves, this a man who shat on his national team manager and country because things werent the way he (a player!) thought they should be.

Utds players may not have played well for misery guts but they at least played.

Thomas Lennon
87 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:43:51
Player power: Ferguson fought it for years, now they are running the club. How mad must the old boy be feeling now.

Sponsors called the shots and put him in his place.

We may never see the same club again.

To quote Homer Woo-Hoo!

Andrew Ellams
89 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:50:23
Nick @ 493, how many of these teams are posting their biggest points totals in 20+ years?
Nick Entwistle
91 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:53:53
I did because passion and speed (and tempo) and passion and passionate speed (tempo) are achieved through effort. And if theyre playing favourites with personalities, the effort is first to go...

Dave Lynch
92 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:54:24
Its about letting your players trust themselves and believe in their ability. Something a certain dour jock coached out of players by playing them out of position and telling them what to do instead of just letting them "Do it."

Ive never known so many strikers lose confidence under one manager.

Nick Entwistle
93 Posted 25/04/2014 at 14:03:07
Andrew, Id wager Southampton and possibly Stoke. Of course all the other teams have either won the league or as with Newcastle come second.

Tommy, if you want an everybody-agree-with-everyone circle jerk, youre in the wrong place.

Dennis Stevens
95 Posted 25/04/2014 at 13:43:07
Moyes shouldnt have stayed at Goodison for that last contract. He was, at best, treading water.

I cant imagine what MUFC thought they were buying. If they wanted continuous success then Moyes was never the answer, somebody like Mourinho would have been a better bet.

Id assumed that they wanted to avoid the 70s post-Busby implosion & were willing to accept a few seasons of dull stability before moving on to a more suitable coach who might actually win things. Moyes average finish with Everton was 7th, just where MUFC are now. Given time Im sure he would have improved on this & had them consistently in the top 4.

I hope Ian is right in suggesting Moyes is destined for Spurs, I never did like Spurs much.

James Flynn
97 Posted 25/04/2014 at 14:17:39
Forget Moyes. Look at the Glazers. With Fergy gone, theyve returned to their default hiring/firing mode, just like with their NFL team. Thats the key. Man Utd fans better be prepared for whats coming.

With Henry and them getting the RS back to legit title contention, Fergy retiring couldnt have been better timed. One more team to worry about, sure. But one less, too.

Come on Bill, if ever you were gonna shake a little loose for your manager to spend, nows the time.

Tony McNulty
98 Posted 25/04/2014 at 14:13:18
Eugene,

Have you ever read Roy Keanes book and his side of things? FAI seen as amateur-hour personified. Suits and their wives up at the front of the plane whilst players fly cattle. His comments about McCarthys behaviour.

I was working in Ireland at the time of Saipan, and I looked out the following "Ode to Roy Keane" which was doing the rounds in Dublin at the time. You might have seen it:

This is a tale of a man they call Roy,
And how often he filled our hearts with great joy,
Until some fucking wankers in the FA of I,
Booked a pitch in Saipan which was totally dry.

Roy had a go at Packy Bonner and Kelly,
While the team was training and the keepers watched telly.
Thered been bust-ups before, this wasnt the first.
And meanwhile the players were dying of thirst.

The FAI had made a deal for some energy drink
But forgot to bring it, so what did Roy think?
"Youre some fuckin langer!", he screamed at big Mick,
And Duff whispered to Jason, that langer meant prick.

So Roy packed his bags and went up to bed,
To rest all the blood that had rushed to his head.
He said hed go home, but would he go really?
But Mick got on the phone and called up Colin Healy.

"We need you here Colin, so go pack your bag,
Youre in the squad now, cos Roys lost his rag".
Roy rang Alex Ferguson, who was home in his gaff,
And Alex said, "Roy, have you gone bloody daft?"

"Youre at the World Cup, youre on centre stage.
Calm down, put a cork in your murderous rage!"
So Roy changed his mind, and decided to stay,
And told Mick its cool, hed just had a bad day.

But next day Roys story appeared in the papers,
And Mick had enough of his captains mad capers.
He called a team meeting, and Jason got lost,
When Roy was asked for to explain to the boss.

What was it that really was getting him down?
Roys vein popped out, and he started to frown.
"Obviously as I said, like, at the end of the day,
I am the team captain, and I want my own way".

"I want keepers to train, and a decent grass pitch,
And a much better manager, you son-of-a-bitch!"
Then Quinner and Kelly and Stan stood up tall,
Saying, "Roy, youre not the only one, who can kick a ball!"

And Roy said, "Well I know that Duff can play a bit too,
And that other Keane fella, but Christ, look at you!
Youre has-beens, youre muppets, who cant take the heat
And Quinn you can head, but do you know you have feet?"

Mick said, "That’s it Roy, youre taking the piss"
As Jason arrived and said, "What did I miss?"
Roy was told, "Youre not welcome, get out and go home",
And the FAI boys got Ryanair on the phone.

There werent any flights until the next day,
Now Roys coming home, the whole country must pray.
Please help us, Lord Jesus, Bertie and the Pope,
Without Roy in Japan, we havent a hope.

Andrew Ellams
99 Posted 25/04/2014 at 14:52:50
Roy Keane is one of the biggest dickheads to play professional football in my memory, and in the last 20 years of that there have been some serious competition in that department. As good a player as he was, he was never as far ahead as everybody else as he thought.
Eugene Ruane
100 Posted 25/04/2014 at 14:45:22
Tony, I was also living/working in Dublin at the time.

It was certainly something that split the nation so to speak, although in fairness it actually was more Cork (for Keane) against just about everyone against.

Certainly among my work colleagues, the opinion of Keane was simply hes one little bollix

I dont doubt things werent perfect in Japan, but whatever did or didnt go on pre-Saipan, what IS beyond dispute is that he was the player and McCarthy was his boss and not liking the training facilities (or whatever) so insulting his boss, then flying home was (imo) unforgivable.

Also, re his book (which I havent read), if I remember rightly, it was put together by Eamon Dunphy, a staggeringly inconsistent poisonous pundit with the worst case of short-arse disease Ive ever seen.

Basically, Dunphy had anti-FAI previous and was someone (back then) who was waiting to put the boot into McCarthy, as he saw him as a Charlton man.

He aggressively defended Keane over Saipan and (literally) ranted at anyone with a different opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prep4trYNj4 (from about 4 mins)

Yet a few years later it was..

2009 - "Eamon Dunphy has branded Roy Keane an "arsehole" for blaming Shay Given and Paul McShane for Irelands World Cup exit in Paris" He claimed the former Irish captain and Manchester United hero was still dining out on the infamous Saipan row"

And..

2013 - "Roy Keane would be a bad choice as Ireland manager, he doesn’t like people.".

This sums it up well..

http://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/eamon-dunphy.htm

James Martin
101 Posted 25/04/2014 at 14:51:49
Depends on your expectations. At the start of his tenure no one expected European football. He delivered that. Not a failure. By the end of his tenure people expected trophies. He didnt deliver that. Failure.

All I can say is if we'd not moved forward in those ten years, Martinez wouldnt be thinking 'who do I put in defense the england starting centre back or the best young prodigy in the prem?' He'd be thinking 'I wonder how Hull are shaping up because we may be in and around them this season. People decried 7th and 6th but a look at Villa and Newcastle show how easy it is for big clubs to slump.

As for me I have always blamed the players. Amongst all the euphoria this season you will notice that, a decimated United aside, the away record still reads P 5 W0 D1 L4. In amongst that is the worst performance at Anfield in living memory. There are also two poor cup exits away at struggling sides which in hindsight would have led to glorious trophy opportunities. Of course we also got our usual nosebleeds so made the world right by losing to Sunderland and Palace at home.

All of this from a team who'll get +70 points. Roberto's got them there, like Moyes got them to a certain level before that. They need to do the last bit themselves though otherwise those annoying stats under Moyes will continue.

Both good managers, both arrived at the right time, both have improved the club, be thankful their arrivals werent reversed othrwise we may gave been relegated in 2002 or would havr gone backwards in 2014. If you cant appreciate what Moyes did then fine, but this myth thst theres 1987 - the dark years of Moyes - then Roberto to bring us into the light is ridiculous. People need a lesson in early premier league history sometimes and the reality of a decade fighting relegation before everyone went mad about this new young manager who drove us to europe brought youngsters through, set the prem points record and brought hope back. Sound familiar? I remember it. Sometimes its the hope that kills you.

Tony McNulty
102 Posted 25/04/2014 at 16:24:10
Eugene. Looks like we differ over Roy Keane. I am prepared to cut him a bit of slack for a number of reasons:

He was never the most naturally talented of players, but by sheer force of will and determination, he made himself into one of the best.

He had high standards for his team (for whom he gave his all) but even higher standards for his own performance.

He didnt like McCarthy neither do I (probably sheer prejudice on my part). Whether the book is entirely accurate in all its detail is open to question, but it does seem as if McCarthy (who had failed to get the right facilities for the team) forced the World Cup issue into one of his need for power and control rather than trying to harness the available talent. The best talent can often be awkward and difficult to manage: effective managers understand this.

He thinks Clough was a better manager than Fergie and gives his reasons.

He saw through Charlton, his behaviour (you must have heard some of the tales whilst in Ireland) and his tactics. Could you imagine? The team fly to the States. Charlton, FAI officials and coaching staff plus wives fly first class; the players fly economy.

He seems prepared to speak truth to power (a rare quality).

I find him quite amusing and sometimes rather insightful ("Only dead fish swim with the tide"; "I was insulted by Ferguson’s praise that I had done well. Do you praise the postman for delivering letters? Its his job"; "Unlike people, dogs don’t talk shite"; "The game is full of bluffers who bang on about rolling your sleeves up, right attitude, pride in the shirt. They miss the point. Clough dealt in detail, facts, specific incidents"; "The majority of the public wouldn’t know a football from an egg timer"; "If I opened my mouth every time there was something wrong, I would need my own newspaper.")

Re. your last comment, he can also be self-mocking: "Player-manager? Nobody would play for me but we’d have great facilities."

By the way, I am not Irish, so I suppose this has rock bugger all to do with me.

Eugene Ruane
103 Posted 25/04/2014 at 16:44:01
Tony - "He was never the most naturally talented of players, but by sheer force of will and determination, he made himself into one of the best"

I think he was a superb footballer, kept it simple, practically made the space between boxes his own, gave the simple pass, NEVER over-complicated things, was always available to receive the ball, pushed all around him on the park to bigger and better effort. One of the best players I've seen and in the last 5 years (or so) for Utd, I started to really study what he did. As rated as he was, I actually came to the conclusion he was UNDERrated.

Of the park however, seemingly sociopathic, narcissistic, depressive and completely devoid of empathy.

I genuinely see him as a man with problems (taps temple) up there and someone seemingly incapable of happiness (and not because he's not grinning like an idiot all day).

Anyway, these are just observations.

Re Charlton and McCarthy, whatever their faults, whatever they did or didn't do 'right', who likes or dislikes them, they both took Ireland teams to World Cup Finals.

It remains to be seen whether Roy of the Rages can help Martin O'Neil do the same.

Shane Corcoran
104 Posted 25/04/2014 at 17:19:45
I think you're overstating Roy's off-field characteristics there Eugene.

He' s not that unusual. He has a low tolerance for bullshit to his detriment which is why he'll probably never be a good manager. He probably can never understand why everyone can't be as driven as he is.
I'd say he's frequently happy at home and with his dog.

Devoid of empathy seems in particular over the top. One of the greats though.

Tony McNulty
105 Posted 25/04/2014 at 17:27:31
Eugene,

Fairy chuff.

I suspect you may have something on the happiness issue. I recall vaguely some research done years ago. The best predictor of longevity amongst the inhabitants of an old people’s home was how highly social workers rated these inmates on a ten-point happiness scale. I suppose if you are as driven as Roy of the Rages (nice one), it has its downside. (By the way, Bluto for Martin Samuel the other week was a masterstroke).

To return to the original topic of the thread, one reason Moyes got found out at the Manure was because of his inability to manage real talent. Average players might respond to extra vaults of the horse or climbing up and down the wall bars but Van Persie and his ilk expect the manager to add some value (e.g. by building the team around their strengths).

Eugene Ruane
106 Posted 25/04/2014 at 17:36:22
Shane - "Devoid of empathy seems in particular over the top. One of the greats though"

As I say, as a player one of the greats (in fact I rate his play as just about as good as it gets) but from a human perspective, well I believe I know a petulant shit-stirring gobshite when I see one.

As for lack of empathy, you yourself say "He probably can never understand why everyone can't be as driven as he is"

Er..that lack of understanding for me (more or less) describes lack of empathy.

Ross Edwards
107 Posted 25/04/2014 at 20:45:43
Nick,

"Passion, speed and tempo (speed and tempo?) were if anything top of the pro-list of Moyes at Everton."

I agree with passion, but speed and tempo? Thats not the first words that come to my mind when describing Moyess style of play. Id describe it as uninspiring and slow.

Harold Matthews
108 Posted 26/04/2014 at 01:26:20
I was never against him but was pleased when he went. Never forgave him for continuing to ignore Oviedo after he had performed brilliantly in the FA Cup disaster at Leeds. He had his favourites and stuck with them.
Mike Gaynes
109 Posted 26/04/2014 at 02:24:08
Harold, to be fair you should feel the same about Martinez. Before Baines was injured, he was giving Oviedo exactly the same minutes that Moyes had.

Which is to say almost none.

Harold Matthews
110 Posted 26/04/2014 at 04:06:49
True Mike. Even after his good showing at Upton Park, he was still left on the bench. Never fully appreciated, he's likely to be left out when he returns.
Steve Brown
111 Posted 26/04/2014 at 05:32:44
Seems to be some interesting twists of logic here. Martinez's results away at the top clubs this season are poor - Phil 528 was pilloried for making this point - but apparently it's OK because it is only his first season compared to 11 seasons under Moyes. So he cant be judged on these.

However, he can be judged on his achievement in getting close to the Champions League in his first season (which is absolutely outstanding by the way). Despite nothing being guaranteed anything other than we will be in Europe next season, this is a bigger achievement than Moyes's dragging club this club out from being a relegation- threatened laughing stock, qualifying for the Champions League, qualifying for the Europa Cup, reaching the FA Cup Final and making us as a top 8 club for a decade. Come off it, you can't have it both ways.

Moyes was a good manager for us full-stop. Martinez has it in him to be a great manager, but let's not try to over-praise him and totally denigrate Moyes. Doing that just loses the credibility in the positive things being posted about Roberto.

Eugene Ruane
113 Posted 26/04/2014 at 07:36:42
Steve Brown - "Moyes was a good manager for us full-stop"

Actually I think that should be colon.

(in place of good manager)

Robbie Shields
115 Posted 26/04/2014 at 08:14:39
I see the apologistas are out in force. One last hurrah aye. Well guys, you've all been shown up for the muppets you are, just like your glorious leader. There's really no arguing with this lot, they simply don't get it and can't see it.

The rest of us will go on supporting the Martinez revolution, enjoy the school of science being reopened and look forward to some silverware heading our way watching great positive football along the way.

You cling on to your LMA's, knifes to a gun fight, 0 wins away at the big 4 in 11 years, capitulations at Wembley, favorites, players played out of position, no strikers on the pitch, hoofball, negative tactics, defense first, screw the youth, percentage football, striker destroying, lowered expectations, happy to be 7th, hypocritical, money grabbing, moving on to better things, dour, I know more than supporters, crap substitutions, predictable, single dimensional, tactically inept, 0 shots in a match, Robbie Savage wanting, self serving, contract stalling, shit head of a man.

Good bye and good riddance, feel free to follow him, you won't be missed by the rest of us. COYB.

IRIT

David Greenwood
117 Posted 26/04/2014 at 08:46:04
Robbie @744, that's quite possibly the best TW post ever.

Chris Leyland
118 Posted 26/04/2014 at 09:06:55
Robbie - I've fully bought into the Martinez way and it is clear that as a club we have moved forward and have a more progressive and entertaining way of playing.

But, the problem I have with your post is that you simply dismiss everything Moyes ever did at Everton as shite. So By doing this you fail to explain how, despite our manager being so shite, he managed to change us from being a bottom 6 club? Was this a pure coincidence and happened despite him as not because of him? Did he accidentally sign players of the calibre of Arteta, Lescott, Baines, Jagielka, Coleman etc?

Yes, we can all agree that fat too often he bottledgames and that, having taken Everton to a certain point, seemed to accept that as being the limits of what could be achieved. However, to re-write history to say that everything he did was bad and dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you as an apologist is far to simple and devalues your argument.

To me, Moyes Everton epitaph would read 'brought stability to the club on the field by changing the club from regular relegation battlers and assembled a squad of talented players but failed to be able to smash through a self-imposed glass ceiling due to his own tactical limitations and style of play.'

Sorry I disagree with you but I'm already clearly an apologist anyway by trying to highlight that not everything Moyes did was bad.

Mike Allison
119 Posted 26/04/2014 at 10:01:18
Give it up! There is no Martinez vs Moyes debate, there never was. They were both managers of Everton and did so at different times.

The only people there's no arguing with is the likes of Robbie and David. There is no debate between the two men, they are two different sections of a narrative. No-one has ever advocated that we should get rid of Martinez and bring back Moyes, no-one wants that, no-one thinks it. The difference between your view and that of others is that some people recognise the positive contribution made by David Moyes to this club in his time and circumstances. Those same people are recognising the same from Martinez at this current time. Incidentally, many of them regularly recognise his limitations and often did so throughout his tenure, even when defending him against the vitriolic criticism we saw on ToffeeWeb. Its simply a more balanced approach to acknowledge both strengths and weaknesses and attempt to weigh them up to come to an overall, qualified viewpoint than it is to commit to an extreme view and interpret everything in such a way as to fit into that extreme view.

This issue was absolutely done to death in the first half of the season, and it was clear then, and pointed out regularly, that it was a false dichotomy. Many (probably most?) fans supported Moyes when he was here, then supported Martinez. It seems to me this would be the normal thing to do. One guy even came on to say that he didn't like Moyes and he didn't like Martinez either. It's only the established 'Moyes-haters' who continued with the narrative of putting the two men in a false competition with each other, and trying to make out that we all have to choose between them. To these people, epitomised here by Robbie and David, any defence of Moyes is somehow a choice to line yourself up against Martinez and Everton's current positive season. (Paragraph 2 in post 744 is clear and direct evidence for this nonsense).

In fact, I might say that David's post is the worst ToffeeWeb post in history, but that would be quite a claim as there have been so many bad ones. Not only was it lazy David, but what you meant about Robbie's post was merely that you agreed with it. That isn't what makes a good post is it? Shouldn't it be interesting, insightful and stimulating? Shouldn't it be written with respect and humility as well as passion? Shouldn't it be free from capitalised acronyms which don't really say anything and are there as a replacement for actually making a point supported by reasonable evidence. I'd have really quite high standards for a claim of the best post ever on ToffeeWeb, and it might even be something I disagree with. It would probably be something with the qualities I mentioned above that forced me to reconsider a strongly held position I had, having finally enabled me to understand a different point of view to my own that I had thus far struggled to comprehend.

Although Moyes can clearly have been deemed a 'failure' at Man United, that doesn't directly translate into having proved anything about his time at Everton. Football has far too many variables in it for that to be the case, and the differing circumstances of the two jobs make a simplistic comparison a desperate exercise.

Why do you feel such a desperate need to create a simple narrative where you are right and others are wrong? Do you need to feel special? You'll probably find a little self-examination is more productive and therapeutic than writing nonsense on ToffeeWeb.

Robbie Shields
120 Posted 26/04/2014 at 10:16:00
Chris, I wrote that post because I am sick to death of reading pathetic posts stating that not much has changed including results, position, points etc. etc. and there's not much difference between Martinez's Everton and Moyes's Everton when the truth is that EVERYTHING has changed.

For the record, my position is, and always has been, that Moyes was exactly what we needed when he came, but after only 3 years into his reign it was becoming clearer and clearer to me that he simply was not a genius, in fact quite the opposite, pretty much all the complaints I made above were evident then, and they only got worse with each passing lost year.

David Greenwood
121 Posted 26/04/2014 at 11:02:34
Mike, dear oh dear. Perhaps I should have said best get it off your chest moment ever on TW (and there has been a few of them)

Robbie's third paragraph is spot on. Excluding shithead of a man, is there anything in that paragraph that is not correct?

Just for the record, I have never been a Moyes hater, and I have said and continue to say he improved us, and he was the right man for a number of years,he did a lot right and improved us without question.

I am more than happy to give him credit and acknowledge what he did for us, but equally I can see the other side, as Robbie put so succinctly.

Ray Roche
122 Posted 26/04/2014 at 11:10:30
Why can't there just be an acceptance that Moyes arrived, did very well in stabilising the ship, bought some extremely talented players many of whom are still performing to the highest level, gave us back some pride, but ultimately fell short of what Everton require, stayed too long, in fact so long that many of us were glad to see the back of him and his negative ways? He has been replaced by a manager who has blown through Goodison and Finch Farm like a breath of fresh air. Someone who has brought excitement, flair and smiles to the fans who watch and the staff who serve. OK, the nucleus of the team ARE Moyes men, but the way they're playing is all down to Martinez. Moyes has gone. Let's leave it now, shall we, and look to the School Of Science ENTERTAINING (!) us.
Robbie Shields
123 Posted 26/04/2014 at 12:10:46
Dave, you are right, the shithead bit was OTT, I've actually met Moyes and talked too him. He's a nice bloke, but even then was complaining in front of me to an old friend of his that you can't compete with the big boys, that was 4 years ago!

Now that I have "Got that off my chest" as you very astutely put it, I am over it...... I hope....... For the record, I would like to say a genuine heart felt thank you to David Moyes for saving our great club from oblivion when he did.


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