Why Moyes failed at both Man Utd and Everton

But for me his defining moment was at Carrington before the Olympiacos game. Obviously aware of rumblings of discontent, he invited the media into a training session to display their "unity". The players were doing one of those drills where a circle passes the ball around, whilst a couple try to intercept. And it became obvious in that moment that our Davey was completely out of his natural habitat – gurning like Forrest Gump whilst Internationals ’megged him for fun.

Yes, it has to be said he should only be at Carrington or Finch Farm if he’s looking through the fence. If I was you Davey I’d have the Summer off, then I’d get on the phone to Stenhousemuir!

To his credit, Moyes is great at unearthing cheap bargains and generating profits from player sales to fund new purchases. On the flip side, it’s well-documented that Moyes has seldom been able to get the most out of any player purchase above £5M (except perhaps for Baines and arguably Fellaini).

Now, what if the reason Blue Bill and the rest of the Everton board have been withholding from Moyes a huge transfer kitty because they knew long ago that Moyes wasn’t the man to spend it on the right players? What if they saw Moyes as an excellent bargain-hunter that he was, but not the astute marquee-signing manager who could be trusted to spend well on a huge transfer kitty (like how the Glazers are now realising)?

It would be interesting to see if Roberto is given significant funding should he take us to the Champions League, and if so, would that make Blue Bill an astute chairman and good judge of managers?

Heard the song? "You can fool some people sometimes".....A heartfelt thanks Sir Alex.

As someone who admired his work here and was surprised that he could not make the step up to a mega club - seemingly trading his regular seventh for us for similar status at Old Trafford - I think he should now be consigned to history.

Martinez, his more than able successor here, is currently enjoying ’all the love’ of Evertonians but, no doubt, will see how fast the worm turns should he encounter a period of less than positive results.

In the meantime, perhaps we should concentrate our energy on cheering our lads on to at least a Europa place.

and so on and so on

My counter-argument has been based around a belief that the right man with vision, ambition, tenacity and nous could take a group of good players and mould them into a team in excess of the ability of its individuals
Yes, a decent stating position and some cash will accelerate the process

Throughout our history, our success has been sporadic and cyclic; us believers in Nil Satis may have become a dying breed but, through all the bad times, I rertained hope that our day would come again; if too late for me, then for the generation who have never seen great Everton sides

Illogical? So, what has being an Evertonian got to do with logic?

Hopefully, Roberto is the man and we’ll get there
He said the other day, "success in football just doesn’t "occur", you have to have a dream, a vision"

by the by...Nobody celebrates like Evertonians - nobody (have a look at the Pathe 66 Final clips and homecoming on YouTube)

Moyes was so keen it was embarrassing. Clearly he felt he was too good for us by then. I realised the the talk in the past about being concerned about whether he was stale and therefore didn’t sign his contract on past for that reason was bollocks He hadn’t been settled for years and had only signed because of money - this despite saying fans getting ripped off and players should take 20% cut. Last season he then contradicted himself from years before by saying not signing a contract was not unsettling for players.

After he left he got worse, grinning like the cat got the cream, being a conee hypocrite in terms of jumping ship to something "better" despite comments after Pienaar transfer and most notably saying he wouldn’t have stood in a players way to better their career despite his actions during the Lescott transfer. Then defending players like Young when diving .... Whilst a. Hypocrite before he just went even worse and believed his own hype.

I don’t think it’s sour grapes (&if it is so be it) but I can’t help but feel glad he’s been taken down a few pegs

Certainly he reached his limit a couple of years ago and settled for safeguarding his carefully manufactured reputation with the media whilst he waited for "the call" but what he achieved up to that point made him the best Everton manager since Howard and I shudder to think where we would be now if we had stuck with Smith instead.

I was delighted to see Roberto appointed and he has shown Moyes folly in thinking that we had reached a peak .I strongly resented Moyes antics over Baines and Fellaini and the statement about how we were just thankful to get away from OT alive when playing there really showed why we never once won at the Big 4 clubs . I never like to see anyone lose their job regardless of the huge compo he will get but there is some poetic justice in all of thisbut all of that said,I don’t see how he failed at Everton. ok he won nothing but did he leave us in a much better position than when he joined us? - that to me is the key question and putting my feelings to one side I would have to say that he did but thank god we now have Roberto!

You are joking right? Suggesting Bill and Co have had millions lined up for players and are just waiting for the right manager??

So the transfer funds are ring-fenced????

’sake.

Given the transfer funds in his last four seasons, it may well have been a wasted time for Everton, but for Moyes as well. No wonder he wanted out.

I know its bash Moyes for all his worth time on TW but if we had Lukaku last season, we’d be as close to top4 as we are now. And no one expected Jelavic to turn into Big Vic.

£6m+ on loans this season? Luxury!

Agree with you Lukaku is one major difference, but the other is Barry and McCarthy which we attained by selling Fellaini.

Control the midfield and their understanding means the full backs can go further forward. Think they have been a huge influence.

In terms of the original article, think his conduct with Baines and Fellaini is key. If he wasn’t so hypocritical (because of his anger towards City when they tried to buy Lescott so close to the end of the transfer window) he probably wouldn’t have been booed on Sunday, and not as much bitterness against him on this site.

I hope he gets back in the game with another job, and given enough time to see what he can do with another team. But he should have left us after 2008.

When he was obviously having 2nd thoughts in 2008 over signing the new contract (was he expecting Fergie to go then?) perhaps he should’ve gone. The stories go that he had coveted the Man U job since he first started in management, so maybe the 11 years at Everton under a board of relative paupers was too long in his development.

I don’t care what he did at Manure apart from he insulted this fine club and showed lack of respect to the people who put him on the map.

Leave it be folks I want to talk about Everton not Moyes

WE ARE BORN- NOT MANUFACTURED, COYB, COYB COYB

I suppose you will scoff at the thought just like Robbie Savage and the likes as you explained in your piece. The point is, SAF, Wenger and Brendan didn’t have the greatest of first seasons but have gone on to have success. Is it not possible that Moyes could turn things around in a season just as he did at Everton when we finished 17th and then finished 4th the following season without the likes of rooney and graveson? It is still far too early to judge Moyes success and failures.

It was always believed that the Utd job was going to be a poison chalice to any manager who took over after SAF, I’m sure who ever takes the helm next will face the same difficulties and will struggle to make to top 4 without huge investment and a complete rebuild.

The question is will the current manager fail too?

IMO The only decent thing Moyes did was assemble a top group of players, he did it a couple of times during his decade of "stability", trouble was, once he had them, he didnt know what the fuck to do. with them.

Martinez has the best chance of success any Everton manager has had for decades. He not only inherited one of the best defences in the country, but in Stones and Barkley, he has inherited the best young English prospects seen for years and while its true he didnt have millions to spend. In Lukaku, Dell boy and Barry he has enjoyed the services of around 40 million quids of talent .

Newcastle and Villa have occasionaly competed with the big boys. but not this year, they are nowhere to be seen, United and Spurs have been shambolic by their usual standards .. . even Arsenal have taken hefty batterings and their fans have been screaming for whenger to be removed.

I really don’t belief there will ever again be so few teams challenging for a Champions league place. Surely all the clubs mentioned will be stronger next season and we cant even guarentee that we we will still have Stones and/or Ross - We all know Kenwrights kecks will role up if somebody flashes the cash . . and what about the three loanees ? Who says they’ll stay ?

Logic would suggest this is our greatest, possibly our only chance.

I don’t care which manager fails at another clubs, I just hope Martinez doesnt join the growing list of failures at ours.

Its gonna be mighty embarresing if all we’ ve got to show
for all this gloating, is our name being thrown into the same hat as Man U’s when they make the draw for the Tursday night cup

That’s the point - he didn’t get him. All that encyclopaedic knowledge of good players and he didn’t get him.

There was a bloke on the left wing called Naismith last season. He’s scored a few this season, hasn’t he? Because he’s playing in his right position, with a balanced team sround him. Maybe he’s playing for a manager who gets the best out of his players.

Moyes bought them, Martinez has got more out of them. That’s I.

We endured a bland brand of football that was predictable and generally unpleasant on the eye. Had Man Utd not come in for him I really do think he would still be in charge and he would be telling us this is as good as it gets for Everton fans. I am the Moysiah, I am God, no-one will question my authority. Without me you are going nowhere.

All I can say is thank you Sir Alex Ferguson you have put Everton back were they belong.

I don’t know if what you say about Martinez getting more out of players is true. The way they play is different of course. But is Howard, Baines, Jags, Distin, Coleman, Mirallas, Pienaar, Osman playing better as individuals?

That’s my point on Lukaku, we’d have been in the hunt as we are now were he with us last season. And though some may forget, we took the fight for 4th to game 35. And that was with a Fergie Utd and a decent Spurs.

I’m not diminishing Robbie’s good season, but what he’s delivering in terms of competing in the league is promoted as incredible, and what Moyes delivered was apparently bullcrap. Yet the difference is that what comes from having a decent striker.

We were 10pts off 4th last season, how many is Lukaku worth over Jely and Vic?

What I do know is a lot of fans on here were giving Moyes a good bashing for playing the likes of Steven and Seamus. Good job he never listened.

But, back to the point made in the OP. Did Moyes fail at Everton? Well, I think you all know my views on that.

He did fail here. Fair enough, he gave us stabikity and kept us consistently in the top 8, I won’t argue that fact. But this is the 4th most successful club in England, should we have just rolled along with 7th and maybe a run to the 5th round of a cup before throwing it away by him bottling big games?

He met Bill’s basic expectations, but not ours. He thought that we’d be happy with a 7th placed finish every year. His mid table mentality, his negative attitude have all been swept away by Martinez, who basically came in here, picked the club up and said ’Look, we are Everton, we belong in the top 4, we don’t need billionaire investors to compete’, and his awareness of oyr history and stature is wonderful to see and enjoy.

Moyes and Bill, in league with the media, convinced us that our glass ceiling was 7th, and it was un-penetrable without money. Martinez has shown that we can and will break through that psychological barrier that had been entrenched in our minds for 11 years.

He failed and bottled big games, we started badly in over half the seasons in his tenure, the football was poor, negative. We were predictable, his tactical awareness was almost non existant most of the time, snd in the last 3 years we stagnated and needed a change.

That change came, amd in Bobby, we are seeing the best football at Goodison for a long time, we are unpredictable, our counter attacking ability is breathtaking, a bit like Wenger in the early years. He has tactical flexibility, showing that he has a Plan B, and a C if we need it.

Above all, he has brought positivity. He has cast aside the no money excuse. We can mix it wirh the rich kids, we can get top 4, where we belong. He understands our history and uses it as motivation, like Rodgers is doing at Liverpool to great success.

Of course, Moyes should have got 18 months in my view, but he had been found out as a man without a plan, little tactical awareness, out of his depth. He is a mid table manager, think of him as a Lexus.He meets your average expectation. But he’s dull, dour, middle of the road, uninspiring. Martinez on the other hand, is like a Ferrari. Fast,exciting, unpredictable.

Moyes will be back, probably at Newcastle or Villa. His reputation is forever damaged and he certainly won’t manage a top club again, at hone or abroad. As you know, I have no sympathy for the man whatsoever. He shouldn’t have even got that job.

I must admit I really enjoyed this well written article happily devoid of swearing and mostly words spelled correctly. Moyes however succeeded at EFC as the board who took him on were quite happy with survival with any extra’s a bonus.

I agree with many of the comments in the article as Moyes did let himself down by losing his integrity as far as I am concerned by not coming clean and then complaining when we did not give him the players he coveted for a pittance.

I don’t blame him for leaving if he thought he was the right man for Man Utd, but I blame him for hypocrisy he displayed when expecting his former club to cave in to the ’mighty’ Mancs.

Roberto has brought optimism to this great club and I want him to remain and establish a team that can compete at the top. So far we seem to have a manager with honesty who never hides from the media. Who does not get sent to the stands or carry on like a spoiled brat complaining about referees. A Spaniard who is more articulate than virtually every other manager in the division.

Martinez is the best ambassador this club has had and I do not believe that anyone can argue that particular point.I just hope that he remains with us long enough to leave a legacy of value.

What pleased me was how Martinez responded to his tactical blooper in the C Palace game. The Mancs game proved my point that you can mix the long and short styles to good effect.

Against Palace we piss farted around with short balls that led to blind alleys. Against the Mancs we were much more direct and went straight for the jugular.

Roberto has taken on this excellent team and added a couple of his favourites from his previous club plus added 3 top quality players that we otherwise could not afford to bring to the club and got rid of some dead wood but even with the implosion of Man Utd and for all this mytholigical great football and tactics it looks as though we will still be given the perennial best of the rest tag.

We might have the best possesion stats or the hight total of points but it’s league position that counts for me. 4th is a must if we are to show any real progression.

(I digress, but we were pulled out of that principally, indeed almost single handedly, by Tim Cahill’s head - a reason why that guy is a ’true Everton legend’ in my opinion.)

Yeah, that’s not nil satis nisi optimum thinking Steve; but I’m talking about reality here people, not a motto. The hackneyed corporate wisdom is that a CEO has done pretty much all they can do come 5 years in the job, and it’s time to refresh. Moyes stayed too long, and was stale by the time he left.

If you believe you can or you can’t then you will.... it’s that simple. Moyes didn’t believe he could beat the top teams over a league season; he didn’t believe he could turn over the top teams on their patch. So he couldn’t.

Martinez does believe he can... and he has.

Martinez believes in his own ability and the players’ ability. Did anyone see him when he was on the box during the World Cup draw, and Lineker made some derogatory remark about a poll that showed four percent or something of England fans thought England could win the World Cup next year?

Straightaway Bobby asks him "Why not?"

It really is as simple as some see problems and others see opportunities.

Waffle, murky the waters, semantics, ’yeah-but-no-but’ nonsense.

You begin - "It seems evident to me that Moyes was the man who was most consistently named best of the rest and managed to put together the best group of players we have had since the mid 80’s"

Yeah he was...by the exact same people who are now lining up to tell us he’s shite and wasn’t up to the job - so what does THAT tell you?

Oh and your ’best group of players’ isn’t actually a fact, it’s your opinion and not one I go along with (I’ll take Joe Royle’s 95 winners to beat Moyes’s demotivated chokers)

You continue - "Roberto has taken on this excellent team and added a couple of his favourites from his previous club plus added 3 top quality players that we otherwise could not afford to bring to the club and got rid of some dead wood but even with the implosion of Man Utd and for all this mytholigical great football and tactics it looks as though we will still be given the perennial best of the rest tag"

Well we understand you’re desperately clinging to your ’I’m not wrong’ position but what none of these ’facts’ take into consideration is that Everton supporters are singing songs about The School Of Science and that season ticket renewals are up by over 200% - SOMETHING has changed.

Finally you inform us - "We might have the best possession stats or the highest total of points but it’s league position that counts for me. 4th is a must if we are to show any real progression".

Luckily, nobody is arsed about what counts for you and most see progression as us now being a team who will take a gun to a gunfight (ie: United away)

I believe your view is simply past posts damage limitation.

However if you REALLY see things that way..

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2520012032/hE5B83040/

But I think Michael and Lyndon should ring the bell for ’last orders’ on the whole M word thing and we as fans get our heads around the fact from ’D day’ in ’M month’ that the towels are going on.

Support for all we are worth for the last 3 game and see where all the cards fall after the last game.

Get your holidays out of the way.

Yes if we want, use the subject as a filler (along with endless transfer speculation) during the dog days of the close season, because nothing much is going to happen until after the World Cup Final.

My tip for what it’s worth, is the ’towels go on’ the M subject at the opening world cup game... for 6 months min.

And we all pray daily to our respective gods that Roberto doesn’t get 2nd season syndrome.

Over to you, Michael.

The landscape has changed markedly in recent seasons, and finishing ahead of Spurs and United and within touching distance of the top four should place us firmly within the top seven, and not simply atop a pile of 14 ’no-hopers’.

I don’t expect due respect from the moronic media and their believers, but I would hope for more from our blessed ranks.

Fantastic article.

Most of Your second to last paragraph should be printed, framed, and hung in the doorway of the changing room so every player reads it before they take the pitch.

Brilliant.

"Nothing but the best". It means we can, and should, aim to be the best, and that nothing else is acceptable. Being a Blue means aiming to win every game, and every competition we enter, and to do it in a style that will make us the envy of world football. Yes, there is a long way and a long struggle to get there, and yes, there are many challenges that we must face on the way, but as long as we ... ignore the ignorant consensus, believe in ourselves, and keep doing the right thing every day, then ... we will get there, and that the journey will be most satisfying.

But, now that Moyes has finally been put out to grass, there should be little or no need to talk about him any more.... Yea, right! Seems there’s always someone who just has to tell us he saved us from relegation, he had a good eye for cheap young talent, and he left a great platform for Martinez to build upon...

There, I’ve said it. Everybody knows it; so there’s no more need to make posts telling us the same old thing that everyone already knows. Let’s move on, and enjoy the last few games of this tremendous first season for Roberto, who has demonstrarted inside 10 months exactly what it means to be the Everton manager.

I’ve been in Urawa, over 16 years. My 2 young boys are mad on Everton. Always clad in blue, nobody really knows our team yet... but it’s coming.

Maybe you know Everton came here with Kendall in ’81’, they played the national team. There was even an Everton ceremonial plate in the Urawa reds shop when I first arrived... I’m always asking relevant people where it went!

One of my boys is in the Urawa reds junior team, being groomed for Goodison around 2024......Where are you in Japan?

Hajimemashite.

I’ve been in Japan for 10 years, Tokyo for 7. I live out by Shinkoiwa but work in Yotsuya.

I didn’t know about Howard bringing the boys out here in ’81. (Year of my birth, as it happens). I tried to follow a J-league team for a while. I ruled the Reds out for obvious reasons, but perhaps I was too hasty? I tried to follow Kashiwa Reysol for a while, but gave up on them first game this season when they allowed the away fans (FC Tokyo) to sing that dreaded anthem "You’ll Never Walk Alone" just before kick off, with absolutely nobody booing or trying to disrupt them. I value Japanese courtesy and civility as much as the next man, but not at the footy and not with that horrible song being sung at me, thank you very much! It’s a shame about the atmosphere because the football was actually quite entertaining. I see that Reysol host the Reds this weekend.

PS. Me and a few fellow Blues started a group on Facebook last year, Tokyo Toffees

Give it a like and come along to a televised match gathering one day if you can make it. (Although I don’t think there will be anymore this season as the word on the street is that the Southampton game is not being televised in Japan and of course the City game will be on too late.)

Anyway, when he signs his contract with Everton, make sure you stipulate it’s 15% cut off the commercial revenues from Japan!

However, the term ’ Moyes apologist’ used by MK and many others on this site used to slap me in the face.

Then Tony Marsh’s posts about DM raged against the tide of accepting mediocrity.

Then I woke up and smelt the coffee.

Shows the importance of sites like this.

The point I was trying to make was yes there have been people who have made various comments about D.Moyes both before and after he was Evertons manager but it seems that since he was sacked various people are now writing about the pros or cons of his managerial style and to me after the way he treated Everton when he left the only memory of him should be a photograph in a hallway with the rest of other Everon managers .

He is just a memory in Evertons past forget him.

But that does not mean he is a bad manager and it doesn’t mean Martinez would do any better or anyone else for that matter. We will never no If Moyes could have turned things around if he was given time to get rid of the bad apples and bring in his own players without the egos like he did at Everton. The Utd fans and player were clearly not keen and wanted rid from the begining because he wasn’t fasionable enough and didn’t have a foreign enough sounding name. It was the same way the red shite couldn’t wait to dig the knife into hodgson and even rodgers early on. If he was given the same time as fergie and wenger or even rodgers and the team continued to decline, then fair enough, you would have an argument. We simply don’t know if Moyes was up to the job or not because he wasn’t given the time to build and put his own stamp on things. Personally I don’t think anyone was up to the job of stepping into fergies shoes so soon after his departure, not even the amazing Martinez.

I’m sure when Clough was sacked at Leeds there were people like you who couldn’t wait to say "I told you so, I was right, he’s not up to it". Maybe you are right and nobody cares what I think but luckily I don’t care what you or anybody else thinks either but I am entitled to my opinion and I think the site would be a lot poorer and boring if every one had the same opinion and blindly followed the lead of certain contributers. I am not one for jumping on the bandwagon or being fickle and having knee jerk reactions or behaving like sheep and being brainwashed by the media and the likes of robbie savage I would rather listen to an expert like Alex Ferguson. I think Moyes will probably get the spurs job and I believe he would do a better job than than Sherwood and avb and even harry. I don’t think its wise to start gloating and back slapping or proclaiming you are right just yet. We had a false dawn before when Moyes finished 4th. Let’s just hope Martinez can keep hold of lukaku for evertons sake and let’s not forget that even Newcastle and Pardew were competing for 4th place the other season so let’s no get too carried away just yet.

Done.

The End

because he came to management over 40 years too late.

Fin

I’m not disputing your opinion or seeking a confrontation, I’m just offering an alternative viewpoint to your post.

He bottled it the big games & certainly towards the last few seasons was that predictable, it was painful.

Where I feel he got his comeuppance, he held us ransom in the final stages of his contract, left us knowing we wouldn’t get a penny, took our good wishes & thanks and showed us complete disregard by believing he could steal our better players & we’d accept whatever he offered.

As we’ve seen this season the southern based media clearly have it in for us, with all the loan system drivel. OFM started to believe in the hype they spun about his ability & the job he was doing at ’PLUCKY, CASH STRAPPED EVERTON."

Well you reap what you sow!!

Moyes did a decent job for a couple of years relative to the abnormally bad period we had just endured, and then he manipulated the chairman, club and fan base. I turned against him when he bought Beattie and saw him as a PE teacher, a dinosaur, dull, boring, self serving, bottling, sanctimonious, expectation lowering twat. He’s been a Liverpool fans ultimate dream which says it all really.

He was a failure here and it’s driving me mad how the media keep on referring to the fact he got the Utd job after the amazing job he did at little old Everton.

Martinez has achieved more already and he’s not had a season yet. He’s the opposite of the Moyes list above. He’s improved our image, raised expectations to where they should be, entertained us and the world, and best of all has given us all hope for the future. I feel that Moyes stole a decade of my Everton supporting life and like most of you, that’s a big part of my life.

I think we all want Champions League because of what it will bring to the club but even the Europa League would be real progression, surely?

Next season will read 2014-15 and as far as I’m aware this will be the first time this decade that Everton will have qualified for Europe through their league position. SO, NEEDLESS TO SAY, BUT THIS LOOKS LIKE REAL PROGRESSION TO ME!

So for me progression means taking everton a step further than Moyes which means breaking the glass cieling by getting into the top 4 and getting past the qualifying stage. For me points are like possession stats. It looks good on paper and suggests that you are doing well but the real stat that counts is the score at the end of the match or the position in the table at the end of the season.

Moyes may well pop up again at a club with similar budget as Everton (Newcastle or Villa for example) and I worry that he will bring such a club into the top 8 battles on a consistent basis, in the same way he did at Everton. Worse still if he does so we will still keep on having whole threads dedicated to him. Perhaps if we sacked Martinez we would then lose our Moyes obession (but I doubt it).

And Eugene (080) - there is no way that the team of ’95 (surely the worst team to win the FA Cup in living memory) would stand a chance against any of the Moyes teams from 2005 onwards.

Moyes is certainly a good manager if not a great one and most likely he will be managing a club that is competing with us quite soon. I think irrelevant of his somewhat acrimonious departure many people underestimate the good he did for our club and I think Ian Tunstead has a point in that although the football and mood have certainly improved this season we have yet to see the end results definitively progress ie trophies and league finish. Of course if we come 4th then that progress will be concrete but if we come 5th then the end result will not be as much as a step forward as the mood and football on display have at times suggested.

The only top 10 teams who will not improve on last season are Spurs and Utd. Chelsea currently have equal pts, City are 4 behind and Arsenal 3. Its safe to presume they will surpass last year’s, and everyone else has already done so.

For large parts of the season more than half the league were on relegation form so I don’t think its unfair to say the overall quality of the Prem this term has been pretty dire.

As you say, its positions that count, not pts.Though it has meant happier times at 4:45.

Saying that, I appreciate that we took a few games to get moving under our new system (something that should not happen next season) and Martinez (remembering that he was apart of a team relegated) still managed to get his hands on some wonderful loan signings = though the jury is still out on Dell Boy. Next season, I would like to see Martinez improve on what he has done so far. Bring in better players on loan and I would also like to see Kone have a decent season and Ovey recover and get back to his best. By this time next year, we will be in a better position to judge whether or not Champions league football will be a regular fixture. If we are still holding the position of the best of the rest, then Martinez tenure may have to be short lived.

Moyes, the board and the match-going fans had forgotten about the importance of our motto. Hopefully, we can now and for the future, wear it on our chests with pride.

Under SAF they always found a way to win and could mix it if they needed to. They had the mongrel element that teams need and they had a manager who would not accept defeat under any circumstance. He would never admit they were shit but find an excuse with the ref or the linesman or the weather or a car back firing in the car park. The players were so shit scared of him they either performed or he fucked them off.

I don’t think Moyes knew what his best team was and was continually berated for playing players out of position. He had Mata as a winger FFS. It’s a real shame he got the sack as he would have had a £200mil warchest to rebuild. Would he learn from his mistakes? Well, we never saw it at Everton, so it’s unlikely. I doubt he was ever the right man for Everton to take us above the tag of under-dogs, battlers, paupers, plucky little Everton. he seemed to excel in this comfort zone as there was no pressure.

Man Utd are the biggest club in the world their stock price is related to the football results. He was probably just out of his depth and it was as proved too much for the man. I hope he gets a gig at a place like Stoke or Fulham maybe Southampton if they lose their manager to Spurs. Hey he might be able to do a job at Spurs although its unlikely they want dour defensive football served up each week? It could be that we have seen the last of David Moyes – it’s not like he needs the money?

City Lost
Chelsea Lost
Spurs Lost
Arsenal Drew
L********l Lost

And United under a "crap" manager we finally won.

Gun to a gunfight maybe but we still didn’t win any of them - but we have progressed.

I’m glad we have Martinez, I’m glad with the way things have gone, and I wasn’t sad to see Moyes sacked at United, because he acted like a twat in the summer towards us. But Moyes was great for us, and we for him. He brought this club back to right end of the league, without a pot to piss in. And those demonising him retrospectively should remember that. I will have some respect for Moyes for that, even if alot of he has disappeared because of what has happened after he has left. He was too dour, too downbeat...but he did very well in the league because of the considerable financial restraints he worked under. His signings can flourish under Martinez, and we can enjoy a new age. But we only enjoy it, because Moyes was a success. If he hadn’t been, we’d still be floundering at the wrong end of the league. The likes of Coleman, Oviedo, Stones, Baines, Distin, Jags, Mirallas and Pienaar were all brought here by him, and I think Martinez can bring to the younger players what Moyes lacked...but, we will see yet if Martinez can match Moyes’ record in the transfer market, and how, as the seasons past by, Martinez replaces the defenders brought to the club by Moyes. There are alot of ifs yet, and I wouldn’t be too condemn Moyes a failure. He gave us a much better decade than the one before it, and I’m hoping Martinez does the same. If he does, we will all be very happy Evertonians.

Translation - ’Fuck misery guts and his cautious presbo-ball’

Meulensteen said he had tried to impress upon Moyes that Everton, the club he was leaving behind, was not on the same scale as the 20-times English league winners and three times European champions.

"Don’t forget, David was a respected manager in the Premier League who worked for 11 years at Everton in a very good way.

"But I did warn him: ’Do you realise, after everything at Everton, you’re going from a yacht to a cruise liner? That’s how big the difference will be’.

Everton 9 times English Champions FA Cup finalists on 13 and 5 times FA Cup winners with one European trophy we are not Rochdale or Doncaster Rovers ffs.

Utd’s players may not have played well for misery guts but they at least played.

Sponsors called the shots and put him in his place.

We may never see the same club again.

To quote Homer ’Woo-Hoo!’

I’ve never known so many strikers lose confidence under one manager.

Tommy, if you want an everybody-agree-with-everyone circle jerk, you’re in the wrong place.

I can’t imagine what MUFC thought they were buying. If they wanted continuous success then Moyes was never the answer, somebody like Mourinho would have been a better bet.

I’d assumed that they wanted to avoid the ’70’s post-Busby implosion & were willing to accept a few seasons of dull stability before moving on to a more suitable coach who might actually win things. Moyes average finish with Everton was 7th, just where MUFC are now. Given time I’m sure he would have improved on this & had them consistently in the top 4.

I hope Ian is right in suggesting Moyes is destined for Spurs, I never did like Spurs much.

With Henry and them getting the RS back to legit title contention, Fergy retiring couldn’t have been better timed. One more team to worry about, sure. But one less, too.

Come on Bill, if ever you were gonna shake a little loose for your manager to spend, now’s the time.

Have you ever read Roy Keane’s book and his side of things? FAI seen as amateur-hour personified. Suits and their wives up at the front of the plane whilst players fly cattle. His comments about McCarthy’s behaviour.

I was working in Ireland at the time of Saipan, and I looked out the following "Ode to Roy Keane" which was doing the rounds in Dublin at the time. You might have seen it:

This is a tale of a man they call Roy,
And how often he filled our hearts with great joy,
Until some fucking wankers in the FA of I,
Booked a pitch in Saipan which was totally dry.

Roy had a go at Packy Bonner and Kelly,
While the team was training and the keepers watched telly.
There’d been bust-ups before, this wasn’t the first.
And meanwhile the players were dying of thirst.

The FAI had made a deal for some energy drink
But forgot to bring it, so what did Roy think?
"You’re some fuckin’ langer!", he screamed at big Mick,
And Duff whispered to Jason, that ’langer’ meant ’prick’.

So Roy packed his bags and went up to bed,
To rest all the blood that had rushed to his head.
He said he’d go home, but would he go really?
But Mick got on the phone and called up Colin Healy.

"We need you here Colin, so go pack your bag,
You’re in the squad now, cos Roy’s lost his rag".
Roy rang Alex Ferguson, who was home in his gaff,
And Alex said, "Roy, have you gone bloody daft?"

"You’re at the World Cup, you’re on centre stage.
Calm down, put a cork in your murderous rage!"
So Roy changed his mind, and decided to stay,
And told Mick it’s cool, he’d just had a bad day.

But next day Roy’s story appeared in the papers,
And Mick had enough of his captain’s mad capers.
He called a team meeting, and Jason got lost,
When Roy was asked for to explain to the boss.

What was it that really was getting him down?
Roy’s vein popped out, and he started to frown.
"Obviously as I said, like, at the end of the day,
I am the team captain, and I want my own way".

"I want keepers to train, and a decent grass pitch,
And a much better manager, you son-of-a-bitch!"
Then Quinner and Kelly and Stan stood up tall,
Saying, "Roy, you’re not the only one, who can kick a ball!"

And Roy said, "Well I know that Duff can play a bit too,
And that other Keane fella, but Christ, look at you!
You’re has-beens, you’re muppets, who can’t take the heat
And Quinn you can head, but do you know you have feet?"

Mick said, "That’s it Roy, you’re taking the piss"
As Jason arrived and said, "What did I miss?"
Roy was told, "You’re not welcome, get out and go home",
And the FAI boys got Ryanair on the phone.

There weren’t any flights until the next day,
Now Roy’s coming home, the whole country must pray.
Please help us, Lord Jesus, Bertie and the Pope,
Without Roy in Japan, we haven’t a hope.

It was certainly something that ’split the nation’ so to speak, although in fairness it actually was more Cork (for Keane) against just about everyone against.

Certainly among my work colleagues, the opinion of Keane was simply ’he’s one little bollix’

I don’t doubt things weren’t perfect in Japan, but whatever did or didn’t go on pre-Saipan, what IS beyond dispute is that he was the player and McCarthy was his boss and not liking the training facilities (or whatever) so insulting his boss, then flying home was (imo) unforgivable.

Also, re his book (which I haven’t read), if I remember rightly, it was put together by Eamon Dunphy, a staggeringly inconsistent poisonous pundit with the worst case of short-arse disease I’ve ever seen.

Basically, Dunphy had anti-FAI previous and was someone (back then) who was waiting to put the boot into McCarthy, as he saw him as ’a Charlton man’.

He aggressively defended Keane over Saipan and (literally) ranted at anyone with a different opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prep4trYNj4 (from about 4 mins)

Yet a few years later it was..

2009 - "Eamon Dunphy has branded Roy Keane an "arsehole" for blaming Shay Given and Paul McShane for Ireland’s World Cup exit in Paris" He claimed the former Irish captain and Manchester United hero was ’still dining out’ on the infamous Saipan row"

And..

2013 - "Roy Keane would be a bad choice as Ireland manager, he doesn’t like people.".

This sums it up well..

http://www.soccer-ireland.com/saipan/eamon-dunphy.htm

All I can say is if we'd not moved forward in those ten years, Martinez wouldnt be thinking 'who do I put in defense the england starting centre back or the best young prodigy in the prem?' He'd be thinking 'I wonder how Hull are shaping up because we may be in and around them this season. People decried 7th and 6th but a look at Villa and Newcastle show how easy it is for big clubs to slump.

As for me I have always blamed the players. Amongst all the euphoria this season you will notice that, a decimated United aside, the away record still reads P 5 W0 D1 L4. In amongst that is the worst performance at Anfield in living memory. There are also two poor cup exits away at struggling sides which in hindsight would have led to glorious trophy opportunities. Of course we also got our usual nosebleeds so made the world right by losing to Sunderland and Palace at home.

All of this from a team who'll get +70 points. Roberto's got them there, like Moyes got them to a certain level before that. They need to do the last bit themselves though otherwise those annoying stats under Moyes will continue.

Both good managers, both arrived at the right time, both have improved the club, be thankful their arrivals werent reversed othrwise we may gave been relegated in 2002 or would havr gone backwards in 2014. If you cant appreciate what Moyes did then fine, but this myth thst theres 1987 - the dark years of Moyes - then Roberto to bring us into the light is ridiculous. People need a lesson in early premier league history sometimes and the reality of a decade fighting relegation before everyone went mad about this new young manager who drove us to europe brought youngsters through, set the prem points record and brought hope back. Sound familiar? I remember it. Sometimes its the hope that kills you.

He was never the most naturally talented of players, but by sheer force of will and determination, he made himself into one of the best.

He had high standards for his team (for whom he gave his all) but even higher standards for his own performance.

He didn’t like McCarthy – neither do I (probably sheer prejudice on my part). Whether the book is entirely accurate in all its detail is open to question, but it does seem as if McCarthy (who had failed to get the right facilities for the team) forced the World Cup issue into one of his need for power and control rather than trying to harness the available talent. The best talent can often be awkward and difficult to manage: effective managers understand this.

He thinks Clough was a better manager than Fergie – and gives his reasons.

He saw through Charlton, his behaviour (you must have heard some of the tales whilst in Ireland) and his tactics. Could you imagine? The team fly to the States. Charlton, FAI officials and coaching staff plus wives fly first class; the players fly economy.

He seems prepared to speak truth to power (a rare quality).

I find him quite amusing and sometimes rather insightful ("Only dead fish swim with the tide"; "I was insulted by Ferguson’s praise that I had done well. Do you praise the postman for delivering letters? It’s his job"; "Unlike people, dogs don’t talk shite"; "The game is full of bluffers who bang on about ’rolling your sleeves up’, ’right attitude’, ’pride in the shirt.’ They miss the point. Clough dealt in detail, facts, specific incidents"; "The majority of the public wouldn’t know a football from an egg timer"; "If I opened my mouth every time there was something wrong, I would need my own newspaper.")

Re. your last comment, he can also be self-mocking: "Player-manager? Nobody would play for me but we’d have great facilities."

By the way, I am not Irish, so I suppose this has rock bugger all to do with me.

I think he was a superb footballer, kept it simple, practically made the space between boxes his own, gave the simple pass, NEVER over-complicated things, was always available to receive the ball, pushed all around him on the park to bigger and better effort. One of the best players I've seen and in the last 5 years (or so) for Utd, I started to really study what he did. As rated as he was, I actually came to the conclusion he was UNDERrated.

Of the park however, seemingly sociopathic, narcissistic, depressive and completely devoid of empathy.

I genuinely see him as a man with problems (taps temple) up there and someone seemingly incapable of happiness (and not because he's not grinning like an idiot all day).

Anyway, these are just observations.

Re Charlton and McCarthy, whatever their faults, whatever they did or didn't do 'right', who likes or dislikes them, they both took Ireland teams to World Cup Finals.

It remains to be seen whether Roy of the Rages can help Martin O'Neil do the same.

He' s not that unusual. He has a low tolerance for bullshit to his detriment which is why he'll probably never be a good manager. He probably can never understand why everyone can't be as driven as he is.
I'd say he's frequently happy at home and with his dog.

Devoid of empathy seems in particular over the top. One of the greats though.

Fairy chuff.

I suspect you may have something on the happiness issue. I recall vaguely some research done years ago. The best predictor of longevity amongst the inhabitants of an old people’s home was how highly social workers rated these inmates on a ten-point happiness scale. I suppose if you are as driven as Roy of the Rages (nice one), it has its downside. (By the way, Bluto for Martin Samuel the other week was a masterstroke).

To return to the original topic of the thread, one reason Moyes got found out at the Manure was because of his inability to manage real talent. Average players might respond to extra vaults of the horse or climbing up and down the wall bars but Van Persie and his ilk expect the manager to add some value (e.g. by building the team around their strengths).

As I say, as a player one of the greats (in fact I rate his play as just about as good as it gets) but from a human perspective, well I believe I know a petulant shit-stirring gobshite when I see one.

As for lack of empathy, you yourself say "He probably can never understand why everyone can't be as driven as he is"

Er..that lack of understanding for me (more or less) describes lack of empathy.

"Passion, speed and tempo (speed and tempo?) were if anything top of the pro-list of Moyes at Everton."

I agree with passion, but speed and tempo? That’s not the first words that come to my mind when describing Moyes’s ’style of play’. I’d describe it as uninspiring and slow.

Which is to say almost none.

However, he can be judged on his achievement in getting close to the Champions League in his first season (which is absolutely outstanding by the way). Despite nothing being guaranteed anything other than we will be in Europe next season, this is a bigger achievement than Moyes's dragging club this club out from being a relegation- threatened laughing stock, qualifying for the Champions League, qualifying for the Europa Cup, reaching the FA Cup Final and making us as a top 8 club for a decade. Come off it, you can't have it both ways.

Moyes was a good manager for us full-stop. Martinez has it in him to be a great manager, but let's not try to over-praise him and totally denigrate Moyes. Doing that just loses the credibility in the positive things being posted about Roberto.

Actually I think that should be colon.

(in place of good manager)

The rest of us will go on supporting the Martinez revolution, enjoy the school of science being reopened and look forward to some silverware heading our way watching great positive football along the way.

You cling on to your LMA's, knifes to a gun fight, 0 wins away at the big 4 in 11 years, capitulations at Wembley, favorites, players played out of position, no strikers on the pitch, hoofball, negative tactics, defense first, screw the youth, percentage football, striker destroying, lowered expectations, happy to be 7th, hypocritical, money grabbing, moving on to better things, dour, I know more than supporters, crap substitutions, predictable, single dimensional, tactically inept, 0 shots in a match, Robbie Savage wanting, self serving, contract stalling, shit head of a man.

Good bye and good riddance, feel free to follow him, you won't be missed by the rest of us. COYB.

IRIT

But, the problem I have with your post is that you simply dismiss everything Moyes ever did at Everton as shite. So By doing this you fail to explain how, despite our manager being so shite, he managed to change us from being a bottom 6 club? Was this a pure coincidence and happened despite him as not because of him? Did he accidentally sign players of the calibre of Arteta, Lescott, Baines, Jagielka, Coleman etc?

Yes, we can all agree that fat too often he bottledgames and that, having taken Everton to a certain point, seemed to accept that as being the limits of what could be achieved. However, to re-write history to say that everything he did was bad and dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you as an apologist is far to simple and devalues your argument.

To me, Moyes Everton epitaph would read 'brought stability to the club on the field by changing the club from regular relegation battlers and assembled a squad of talented players but failed to be able to smash through a self-imposed glass ceiling due to his own tactical limitations and style of play.'

Sorry I disagree with you but I'm already clearly an apologist anyway by trying to highlight that not everything Moyes did was bad.

The only people there's no arguing with is the likes of Robbie and David. There is no debate between the two men, they are two different sections of a narrative. No-one has ever advocated that we should get rid of Martinez and bring back Moyes, no-one wants that, no-one thinks it. The difference between your view and that of others is that some people recognise the positive contribution made by David Moyes to this club in his time and circumstances. Those same people are recognising the same from Martinez at this current time. Incidentally, many of them regularly recognise his limitations and often did so throughout his tenure, even when defending him against the vitriolic criticism we saw on ToffeeWeb. Its simply a more balanced approach to acknowledge both strengths and weaknesses and attempt to weigh them up to come to an overall, qualified viewpoint than it is to commit to an extreme view and interpret everything in such a way as to fit into that extreme view.

This issue was absolutely done to death in the first half of the season, and it was clear then, and pointed out regularly, that it was a false dichotomy. Many (probably most?) fans supported Moyes when he was here, then supported Martinez. It seems to me this would be the normal thing to do. One guy even came on to say that he didn't like Moyes and he didn't like Martinez either. It's only the established 'Moyes-haters' who continued with the narrative of putting the two men in a false competition with each other, and trying to make out that we all have to choose between them. To these people, epitomised here by Robbie and David, any defence of Moyes is somehow a choice to line yourself up against Martinez and Everton's current positive season. (Paragraph 2 in post 744 is clear and direct evidence for this nonsense).

In fact, I might say that David's post is the worst ToffeeWeb post in history, but that would be quite a claim as there have been so many bad ones. Not only was it lazy David, but what you meant about Robbie's post was merely that you agreed with it. That isn't what makes a good post is it? Shouldn't it be interesting, insightful and stimulating? Shouldn't it be written with respect and humility as well as passion? Shouldn't it be free from capitalised acronyms which don't really say anything and are there as a replacement for actually making a point supported by reasonable evidence. I'd have really quite high standards for a claim of the best post ever on ToffeeWeb, and it might even be something I disagree with. It would probably be something with the qualities I mentioned above that forced me to reconsider a strongly held position I had, having finally enabled me to understand a different point of view to my own that I had thus far struggled to comprehend.

Although Moyes can clearly have been deemed a 'failure' at Man United, that doesn't directly translate into having proved anything about his time at Everton. Football has far too many variables in it for that to be the case, and the differing circumstances of the two jobs make a simplistic comparison a desperate exercise.

Why do you feel such a desperate need to create a simple narrative where you are right and others are wrong? Do you need to feel special? You'll probably find a little self-examination is more productive and therapeutic than writing nonsense on ToffeeWeb.

For the record, my position is, and always has been, that Moyes was exactly what we needed when he came, but after only 3 years into his reign it was becoming clearer and clearer to me that he simply was not a genius, in fact quite the opposite, pretty much all the complaints I made above were evident then, and they only got worse with each passing lost year.

Robbie's third paragraph is spot on. Excluding shithead of a man, is there anything in that paragraph that is not correct?

Just for the record, I have never been a Moyes hater, and I have said and continue to say he improved us, and he was the right man for a number of years,he did a lot right and improved us without question.

I am more than happy to give him credit and acknowledge what he did for us, but equally I can see the other side, as Robbie put so succinctly.

Now that I have "Got that off my chest" as you very astutely put it, I am over it...... I hope....... For the record, I would like to say a genuine heart felt thank you to David Moyes for saving our great club from oblivion when he did.