Stop Moaning About Loaning!

We have many talented homegrown youngsters in the squad like Browning, Pennington, Kennedy, Garbutt, Ledson, McAleny and Lundstram. Last season the total amount of first team football they played was just a couple of minutes. Literally Garbutt played 2 minutes against Southampton.

All the first team football experience went to Barcelona’s Deulofeu and Chelsea’s Lukaku. Two footballers who will probably never play for Everton again.

Next season we will have all the young players I mention above plus a whole selection of title winning U18 players.

There is very little chance to give these young players a chance in the Premiership. First team experience is essential to young players and our young players are in desperate need of it.

And yet all the rumors suggest Martinez is about to sign Chelsea’s Thorgan Hazard on-loan or possible Atletico Madrid’s Saul Niguez on-loan.

So basically next season all the first team opportunities for young players at Everton will go to Chelsea and Atletico Madrid kids while the likes of Ledson, Browning and Garbutt watch from the sidelines.

I simply do not like the loan system. I hate the idea of Everton developing younger players for other teams. Let Chelsea and Atletico Madrid develop their own youngsters.

Give what little first team experience is available to Everton youngsters.

But I can’t help thinking that it also represents its own pitfalls for Everton FC that being if two of the spine of the team i.e. Barry and Lukaku decide to move on or the parent club decide to put them into their own first-team then we have to start all over again with their replacements needing time to settle in at Goodison and with the possibility that they will not be of similar quality of the outgoing players.

It is impossible to create an excellent team if year on year you have to replace your engine room and your main target man, short-term it might help the cause but in the longer term I want Everton FC to have the main elements of the team tied to the club and be 100% Everton players.

As you say Paul, Bobby’s hands are tied and it’s no use going for the likes of McFadden or Hitzlsperger only to see them rot on the bench. What was the point of those loans?

It’s a catch 22 situation, a ’look what you could of won’ if they turn out to be a hit at the club, so in a way it’s even more galling those fuckwits in the boardroom will not move aside.

I sincerely believe Martinez will walk away if he feels his ambition is not being met.

I have and always will be opposed to teams loaning out players in the same division.

I think the fundamental problem is the gap between youth/reserve football and the Premiership.

While we flood the Premiership with quality foreigners we do it to the detriment of developing good English youngsters.

I also think players and agents earnings have gone crazy and would like to see some sort of legislation to control this.

The Financial Fair play policy is a step in the right direction but is far too open to abuse and circumvention.

I think there should be a cap on players earnings,Agents fees and the value of transfer money a club can spend.

As far as the loan system goes, it seems as though the demands of the loaning club in terms of guaranteed appearances is becoming problematic (eg Dela). Also, if a club loans a player they should have to run the risk of the player in question affecting their parent club (i.e playing against them) in the same way they do their competitors in all competitions.

I see our business in the loan market increasing for good or bad this summer until such time that restrictions are placed and/or our domestic & European success limits clubs’ willingness to loan.

All of a sudden it’s an issue and detrimental to the club... Why?

If City offered us Dzeko on loan for a season, would that be wrong too?

We could have seen a starting 11 including Lukaku, Barry, Deulofeu and Traore. It’s also makes it difficult for the manager as these players know they’re only here for one season - so full credit to Martinez for motivating these players.

Whatever we think, it shouldn’t be our long term strategy.

But...

If RM now has an advantage of further funds due to Traore being here instead of the £7m "rated" Jelavic and a fit Barry ready to sign instead of an unfit player who has sat on the bench up the East Lancs all season, I can see the point of it...

A few years ago a lot of us bought our cars on HP then got peanuts for them when we wanted a new one. Nowadays a lot of us pay for them for three years, never own them and get the keys to a new one once we resign a contract...

Could football be going the same way...? Today, Most clubs only turn a profit on home grown talent, only a few of their signings are moved on for a greater transfer fee...

Probably a shit analogy but you get the gist.

Our own youth sides have only had one season learning to play the Martinez way and will need a few years before we see some positive results, but I believe the amount of young players making the grade will rise as the whole club play the same style and the Martinez brand becomes ingrained. We need patience now so that the seeds being sown have time to blossom and flourish. IN 3 years time I beleive we will no longer need to use loan players, rather more of us becoming the loaning club to others in our league, getting them to blood our promising youngsters. We really are on the road to the school of science and Nil Satis Nisi Optimum may soon be a reality.

My belief is that this is mostly a short term strategy for Roberto and once his ideals and philosophies start to take fruit we shall see more of our younger players start to come through thus diminishing the need for so many loan players.

Dick, probably going forward Roberto will start to give some of the youngsters game time as he has had time to look at them and how they have adapted to his ideas.

What amazes me on this site is the number of posts that indicate Roberto will walk due to Bill and the boards penny pinching etc. Have none of these posters read or heard Roberto’s views on BK and transfer funds etc. He has made it quite clear that he is a great admirer of BK and that he is more than happy with the transfer funds that will be available to him.

I recall reading somewhere that Chelski had 22 players OUT on loan this season......

We did nothing wrong, we "borrowed" the maximum number of players (2x domestic, 2x continental).....Arsenal could have done that too.
One of our loanees scored and then went sick.

We do loan out young players to gain experience because there is no "Central League" (reserves) as once there was to rehabilitate injured first team players whilst simultaneously educating up an coming prospects....but also keeping bench warmers match ready.

The bottom line is that "The Game" deliberately slants ANY and EVERY opportunity in favour of "The Fastest Buck", and via the route which involves zero thought, investment or forward planning.

Wenger utterly crapped himself when he thought we might overturn his applecart.

Despite it meaning that we would begin our Europa campaign earlier, I REALLY wanted Hull to win the FA Cup. I wanted it because I want the "Assisted Monopoly" broken at every single turn, repeatedly and for years and years to come.

Only Southampton have felt able to buck the trend but with a mass exodus likely this summer, what’s the betting that they will be loaning with the best of us come August !

Bobby does right to play the system - he can hardly compete in the market with ’the big boys’ can he?- but what’s the betting that if he ever makes top four they will change the rules overnight.

Wenger says that teams based on loans are built on sand and, of course he’s right. But at least we get to get to see new faces every year , don’t we ?

All the biggest teams inhale the best youth players from around the world. A talent vacuum is created and the biggest teams end up screwing clubs like Everton in this secondary market place, co-created by the two.

Martinez is left having to pay bigger clubs huge fees for players they don’t need and we can’t have.

Everton wouldn’t have got 4th without Arteta’s loan, wouldn’t have done a number of things without Campbell, Howard, Jobo, Ferrari, Pienaar, Fernandez, Donovan, Jo. In this flowery re-imagining, what it doesn’t tell you is that now there’s little other choice.

It works both ways. I don’t agree with loans in the same division - there is potential for a conflict of interest, and I don’t think it’s right that you can’t play against your parent club.

But the loan system is here to stay, and while we can’t compete with the big boys financially, this is one area we can use in our favour...

What a bitter bastard. Now that his mate Moyes got the sack he, like a lot of journalists, are now made to look stupid with their Moyes patronage!!!

We have been using the loan system as a "try before you buy" option for ages and in all that time it has never been guaranteed that the loanee would become a permanent signing. We have had the chance with each of the 4 players we have loaned this season to forge a relationship that stands us in good stead if/ when they come onto the open market, though the explicit reason for the loans has simply been to strengthen the squad for the 2013-14 season.

The idea that we are stifling our own talent and merely benefitting other clubs is absolute nonsense. There has been plenty of opportunity for youngsters from our own ranks to step up when the loanees weren’t available or would have benefitted from a rest. The fact that they didn’t is simply an indication that they are not ready yet (if they ever will be) and not because their development is being suppressed. The opportunity for youngsters to train with good quality players every day is a good thing, and the sustained good form of the first team actually makes it easier to bring in the occasional inexperienced player. Chucking them in in a sink or swim manner is a situation that is more likely to damage their career permanently.

Player hoarding is not a good thing but there is little that can be done about it without changing global economics and attitudes. In the meantime, if we are able to successfully exploit the unusual loan opportunities it creates then that will benefit our club by making immediate success potentially more attainable. Alongside the loan strategy, sensible club hierarchies will also look to combine it with developing their own prospects and astute permanent signings whenever possible.

In this time and age, the notions of " long term" and "development" have to be re-visited.

Anyone can be sold for a price. How many times have we seen a player signed on for a huge contract, only to be sold the following season? And I believe those long contracts (from the club’s perspective) serve primarily to ensure some transfer monies, rather than to tie the player down. It is more often than not, about not losing your assets without getting anything in return.

Thus, my point is - anyone can be moved, and when this is the case, a team of fully contracted players can be as "transitional" as one with loan players.

What I believe Martinez is recognizing is that you have to use the loan system as a strategy, especially when the club doesn’t have lots of money to burn.

What I feel optimistic about is that Roberto has shown himself able to maximize the loanees’ development. That can only be good for us we become an attractive team for more of the same.

I think it’s conjectural at best to claim that the loan players are being developed at our own youth players’ expense. While Stones and Barkley are Moyes’ players first, Martinez’s willingness to deploy them suggest to me that he will give youth a chance. And by extension, he will give our youth players a chance if they are good enough.

’The idea that we are stifling our own talent and merely benefiting other clubs is absolute nonsense. There has been plenty of opportunity for youngsters from our own ranks to step up when the loanees weren’t available or would have benefitted from a rest. The fact that they didn’t is simply an indication that they are not ready yet (if they ever will be) and not because their development is being suppressed. The opportunity for youngsters to train with good quality players every day is a good thing, and the sustained good form of the first team actually makes it easier to bring in the occasional inexperienced player. Chucking them in, in a sink-or-swim manner, is a situation that is more likely to damage their career permanently.

I think option (a) makes sense if it is an icing on the cake situation - we can make the first team a little bit stronger in the short term then this can yield longer term benefits. However we do need to bake a proper long term cake underneath with youth structures and long term contracts for the bulk of the squad. Both of which I think are now in place.

Given that we can only have 11 on the pitch at anyone time the key is to ensure that we have sufficient depth of the right quality. I would rather have a couple of loan stars around than any number of below par signings that have no impact on the pitch - and who also block the introduction of youngsters. Its also a much less risky way of proceeding than blowing large amounts in the transfer market.

I do think there should be regulation on the number of players a club can loan out (22 from Chelsea is ludicrous) - but those who want to cap wages, cap agent’s fees, cap transfer fees clearly do not understand economics. Perhaps we should regulate summer time temperatures as well whilst we are at it? A cap on wages we had until the 1960s and it was a disaster for the players and in the modern day would simply drive the best players overseas and destroy the Premier League.

Capping transfer fees would mean that under the table payments would need to be paid to attract the best players - practically hardwiring in corruption into the system and forcing otherwise honest managers to become crooks. I have no idea how you could stop players paying their agents what they please. I would like agents to be forced to declare their conflicts of interest, but I am not sure this would make much difference. Agent’s could and to some extent do provide a genuine service to players, but unfortunately their interests are not at all aligned and this is where the problems start - bluntly it is in the agent’s interest for a player to agree to a transfer because this results in a big fee to the agent. Why player’s have not worked this out I do no know, but them a professional football player may wonder why I can’t do more than two keepie ups!

He also brought in Barry and Lukaku as short-term plugs to fill two of our biggest holes. Traore was signed as cover for the injured Kone and outgoing Jelli and Del Boy was signed as one of the hottest talents in the world (and probably to try and forge a relationship with Barça that will end up with us getting more chances for loans and purchases until Martinez takes the trip in the opposite direction).

Over the summer, I expect to see either Lukaku, Barry or Traore replaced with a permanent signing and a loan player coming in to replace either Ossie or Pienaar. Other signings will probably be squad players.

Is McAleny anywhere near as good as Lukaku? No. Conor Grant as good as Barry? No. Quite how Deulofeu or the injured Traore (who changed hands for £30M in his last 2 transfers) has kept out Garbutt is anyones guess.

Our young players need to go out, probably on loan, to lower league clubs to get 30 or 40 competitive games under their belt. Most will sink, but some will swim. Any that are good enough will get game time under Roberto who clearly believes in giving young players first team chances.

The loan system provides a number of opportunities for a club like ours:

1) Gives us players with exceptional ability, and/or very good experience for generally good value. They are players we’d struggle to afford, and to be frank, players we may not actually want to take on permanently.

2) It gives the gaffer time and space to move players out he doesn’t rate, and wait for the best shopping times to get new players in.

Traore is a bit of a bad example; he was injured just after Jelavic left, but had Martinez known that I don’t think Jelly would’ve been sold.

So, Martinez used the fact that he (thought he’d) brought in cover, to allow him to move Jelly on and we got a decent fee, and replaced Jelly in the short term with a better player... someone who looks like may stay on for another season, perhaps longer.

Who would Martinez have bought to cover Jelavic in that January transfer window if we were stuck with permanent signings only? We’d have paid over the odds, and got a second-rate purchase.

One final comment: I don’t buy all this "Roberto will leave if not supported". That suggests that he hasn’t and/or won’t be given the same freedoms as Moyes was, ie, that he can spend 70-80% of whatever the club turnover is (but no more).

Roberto didn’t come here expecting to be able to spend like Spurs or Man Utd. He’s been very careful with his cash in his first season, and having had a full season to see the first team and youth squads, has a much clearer idea of where he needs to spend money.

With the new TV deal kicking in, we now have much more to spend than we have ever done. This gives us no advantages over our Premier League rivals, but it does give us much more spending power in foreign leagues, which is where I’d expect Roberto to do most of his shopping.

I’d love EFC to have the same financial clout as those but were nowhere near it. I wouldn’t have minded one bit if the people who took over LFC, had taken over us and I’d have been chuffed to bits if those who took over Man City, had taken over us.

I know that’s another debate all of its merry own but the fact is, we cannot go out and buy £40 million worth of players, just to take one or two forward places, as one team is rumoured to be considering. If we could buy Lukaku for £20 million then I guess Roberto would get him asap. Whether we do or not we’ll have to wait and see but the likelihood is, we might have around £20 million to finance All our transfers in, not just on one player.

We could, I suppose, bring on the kids like one or two have suggested; and one post made a very impassioned plea to do just that. The poster, I think, hates the loan system and would rather see our "Young Guns" be included in the first team. I think though, that Robbie would play them if he thought they were ready. My view is that there is a real danger of ruining a kid, if he is brought into the team and expected to leap into "first team player" mode instantly.

Deulofeu is rated to be one of the best young prospects in European football and in my view, he has got loads to learn yet. He’s naturally gifted with loads of skill and pace but he hasn’t been as effective as he could be. That skill isn’t fully effective if he keeps thinking he has to beat every man in sight and score. He hasn’t learnt how to use his skill to bring in other players in the team. That is why we’ve got him (had him!). We send our young lads out to teams in lower divisions to gain first team experience and I’m sure that affects the chances of teams they go to, of wining their division or fending off relegation. Those clubs use our players as Roberto uses the players he has brought in on loan.

Lukaku and Barry have been excellent loans and I hope we could sign one or both. If teams like Liverpool can bring in loan players, when they are streets ahead of us financially, then Robbie is using the system as effectively as anyone I’ve seen.

I believe we will have no chance to compete in the transfer market with Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, let alone Man Utd, Man City or Chelsea.

Personally, this season has been one of the most exciting I’ve experienced at GP for years. We are going into Europe and Robbie boy has said we will be getting another five or six players in. We’ll have to wait and see but I believe that he means what he says.

I’ve had enough of the philosophy of bringing a knife to a gunfight, I want to see us packing six guns, if not Kalashnikovs. If some of those guns are borrowed for a season or two, bring it on, as our American cousins would say.

That may be down to lack of funds, or a falling out along the way, but he strikes me as the type of manager who won’t stay at the club mumbling about having to sell players etc... he’ll just accept another offer to go elsewhere. I don’t imagine we would ever hear the reason why he left, as one thing our Board excel at is keeping former employees quiet.

Obviously this is all guesswork on my part, but I think once he has proved himself over a few seasons at Everton, he will be offered a chance at a massive club. We have to match his ambition, which goes far beyond a top 7 finish.

I also don’t think Martinez has a problem with selling players. Moyes was always against selling anyone, unless his hand was forced, or they’d somehow got into his bad books. We got good offers for players like Saha, but Moyes didn’t take them, and kept grumbling for more cash; cash we don’t have.

Roberto has shown that he’s happy to move players on (Heitinga, Jelavic, Anichebe) if he thinks we don’t need them or can put the cash to better use.

That’s not to say Martinez will stay for 10+ years; I think if Barcelona come calling he’ll be off, but I think he has a long term vision for us, based on our current spending level, and I can’t see him jumping ship to Spurs, Man Utd, Arsenal etc, just because they can give him £40M more to spend per season.

I think in terms of ambition, a club like Everton need to be challenging for the Premier League, winning cups and getting into the Champions League regularly. I think that is enough for Martinez. In terms of financial "ambition", I think Martinez is perfectly happy to work with what we have, based on a long-term plan.

I think someone here posted that Atletico Madrid had won La Liga with a wage bill less than QPR’s (and Real Madrid’s and Barça’s). It goes to show that having less cash is not necessarily a barrier, and foreign transfer markets can be good places to shop for clubs in the Premier League.

It is helping us to challenge the richer clubs and the resentment it is causing is a sign that it is working.

Either some owner or technical director will buy and sell players under his nose or, if he has one "bad" season, he’ll be out the door.

BK at least offers stability to let the manager get on with his job. BK has a lot of faults, but letting the manager work without undue pressure is probably one of his greatest traits.

Ideally for me that means:

1) That we are never loaning players in positions in which we have talented youngsters who are ready to step up.

2)That we are not paying exorbitant loan fees that would be better put towards permanent transfers.

3) That we loan players who genuinely want to play for the club and will offer something to the first team.

4) That we don’t loan players from our direct rivals thus helping them develop their youth.

Last season it would seem that maybe only rules 2 and 4 were in danger though I don’t know exactly what the loan fee’s were and perhaps you would not consider Chelsea a direct rival. I would like to think that they are.

All-in-all, I have no issue with Martinez using the loan system sensibly so long as he is also bringing in permanent players to replace the ageing legs and bringing through the youth players where merited.

Did you mean In the absence of ANY investment?

Namely:
a) gain regular first team experience for our up and coming players because such opportunity does not presently exist.
b) "try out" likely players for our first team with a genuine view to purchasing them.

If there is any abuse of the loan system it is simply that their is monopolisation of the TRANSFER market by the fat hogs.
The loan system allows them to stifle "free market" opposition almost as a cartel and arguably to actually stifle rather than develop talent.

Their actions also inflate transfer fees and players wages for "better players", thereby making "Challengers" (such as us) fewer in number.

So perhaps an abolition of the loan system and a development of a "Central League" could address this.
But certainly a numerical limit as to just how many players at "First Team" level (as already happens in ECL) any one club are allowed to register would be a great step forward.

Clearly fair numbers would need also to be applied to the various age "divisions" too.

None of this will happen because the favoured few are the favoured few and will continue to be both favoured and few in number.

A Cartel.

I think the problems will start when we get the injuries, suspensions, Africa Cup etc. as I don't believe our young lads are going to be able to fill all the gaps that will come throughout a season, though they will certainly get their chance

While the loan system is with us, I've every confidence that Robbie will use it well. While the unlimited numbers that the rich teams can afford is with us, it will get progressively harder to break into the top four. Someone said it was one of Bill Kenwright's greatest strengths that he puts no undue pressure on a manager.

I don't see that being a great strength, I see that as Billy Boy continuing the scene that he began with David Moyes and would have left us with Walter Smith as manager if he could have provided us with mid table mediocrity. For a Chairman of one of the biggest clubs in England not applying pressure is, in my opinion, a massive letdown to the club and it's supporters.

Personally, I don't see Kenwright as having any great traits, certainly not as our club Chairman. He might in theatre producing.. I see Robbie having great traits though and if he is given an increase in funding as well as using the loan system, then I think we'll have a chance. If not, I don't think even Robbie boy will break that glass ceiling consistently.

"But I also have a few young players who will be given an opportunity in pre-season and depending on how they do they will fill some of those positions in the fist-team squad. I think our young players next season will have a massive say in how good we are going to be."

Sam doubtless has Lukaku in mind but for what it's worth I don't think that Lukaku is a neat fit for the picture Sam paints and I also suspect - given the ringing success of Bobby's loans last season - that Lu might well be the last player we ever have on loan from say a club with real hope to finish in the top-4.

From what I can unpick from the varying stories we have heard Lukaku will not be at Chelsea next season not least with Jose's famed stubbornness and the reasons for him ending up at The Old Lady might possibly have had as much to do with the wishes of the player himself as the wishes of his parent club.

I suggest it suits Billy and the board to say nothing and let things drift. Unfortunately Roberto may be the maker of his own downfall down the road. He brought us to 5th and the Europa League in his first season while playing a more attractive brand of football.

Loanees are our future as – even after reducing our debt, making a profit from previous transfers, and the increase in TV monies – we reportedly have a miserly £20 million to spend.

I think it's time for us loyal supporters to put real pressure on Billy and his mates to invest now and not to accept their bullshit of "looking 24/7". Remember everyone else in the league is getting an increase in their TV money and they will invest in their squads. Over to you, Billy... or fuck off.

Them coming into our squad did not 'hold back' the development of any of our youth players because none of our youth players were or are better than any of the players loaned in. Had we played the youth (not counting Barkley or Stones), for any number of games, we wouldn't have achieved what we did. Also a lot of our youth players were sent out on loan to lower divisions to get competitive experience.

There are many things wrong in principle with the system but as long as its there we should make use of it to try and get the best possible starting 11 on the pitch. If the likes of Chelsea and City are stupid enough to loan out players like Rom and Barry then great, we'll have them, even if its only for one year.

In the longer term, its a simple equation, without a massive investment, the only way for the club to move forward is to try and achieve more and get more global/commercial recognition. Challenging the top 4 and getting into Europe is exactly what we need and if loans are going to help us in the short term, then so be it.

If (hopefully) we can produce some youngsters who have the quality for the first team, then Roberto will give them a run out. The EL will also mean that there will be at least half a dozen more games for us this season to give the fringe players a run out.

Either get rid of the whole system or lets take full advantage of it - we certainly don't need to be loaning in the likes of Straq, Hanneman and Anthony Gardner! Now there was a complete waste of time and money, not to mention a massive confidence boost to the youth!

Of course, the fact that most of said pundits were ex-Redshite accounts for their bias never ending against Everton.

Loans have to be repaid... there's the rub. It is not a way to build a career for a good player or build a good team, however. You can be in loan limbo too easily, which we are again now.

It buys you time to get out of trouble. We now have to buy wisely. In Roberto we still have trust. But less loans please and more solid team!