Meis talks up role of fan engagement

No, it's not my M&S, it's not my McDonalds, it's not my Goodison Park or my new stadium.

It is simply a marketing ploy to make us feel like we're involved. Everyone uses it so let's not fall in to the same trap.

It will be designed by some guy, according to some guidelines designated by LCC and EFC.

The guy is just whipping up interest and generating his profile nicely. Unless he has something to say, I suggest he shut the fuck up and just get on with it.

All we really care about is:
● Do not compromise design for the running track
● Make the sides as steep and as close to the pitch as possible
● Don't make it red.

I mean really, what else needs to be said? I don't want a stadium designed by a committee, I want a highly paid architect to showcase about 5 different designs and then the board can choose what they want. Maybe they could involve a fan vote with it.

As someone who has to deal with wooly requirements all day, we can't allow this stadium to be the Mazda RX7 of its day.

Now, let's see a few sketches of the stadium, Dan.

As for Dan's comments, if he were silent, then that would raise more concern; surely it's better to hear something than nothing.

Since this is "Our" stadium though (see what I did there?), I'll just filter out the inevitable contemporary corporate presentation stuff. Some of his work is excellent, and his ideas surrounding the development are interesting.

I share your thoughts about the core issue, though, regarding the running track, as I've said elsewhere. Until I see designs from Meis that make me reconsider my whole understanding of size and measurement in the three dimensional physical world, I'm more than concerned about this running track angle.

He can only design what is possible.

How else is he going to convince his future users? Did Steve Jobs just throw out a phone and say, "I hope you like it"? Or Bill Gates saying, "Ooh, I've got some new software. Try it out"?

I'm not particularly keen on all this promo lark but that's how they do it and they've been doing it for years. Remember the old slide shows?

Amazing that when people disagree, they always use the anger as a way of devaluing your opinion.

Take off your blue-tinted specs for one minute and look at it objectively, please.

I used the RX8 metaphor because it's a great car, ruined by trying to appeal to too many people. Too many compromises.

Because making people feel involved and that they have been consulted and have had their say is a bad thing, right?

Of course ultimately the Board will have the final say, they are paying for it, but they have found out to their cost in the very recent past what the danger of taking fans for granted are.

Anyway, I'd email your valued feedback in but I wouldn't volunteer for the focus groups.

The pitch/stand boundaries are almost identical to Goodison, and the setback of the upper tiers along the pitch sides, too. It's a great looking stadium internally in my opinion, with the stand corners well handled.

A stadium like that would be fantastic. How about a blue version of Dortmund's yellow wall at the home fans' end?

If you listen from 31:55, you hear Meis mention a very large, very steep, right on top of the pitch home end. This I think may be the only homage able to be paid to Goodison's proportions, should it be necessary to include that running track.

There's going to be a lot of discussion here when those first designs are shown...

But you know what. It is possible to choose an alternative attitude towards the stadium project. We have started to see just a few shards of light at the end of our very long dark tunnel and personally I choose to remain cautiously optimistic. (Yes, I am aware that most Evertonians live their lives constantly switching between optimism and despair.)

I truly believe that some supporters are starting to see a few changes for the better – and even supporters of other premier league teams are having to begrudgingly admit that Everton are now taking small steps in the right direction and are beginning to change the perception of our premier league rivals towards us.

There is undoubtedly still a massive journey ahead before we get where we want to be, and you can be assured that there will still be some obstacles to overcome and some disappointment before we become the club envied by many. However, with a decent set of youth players, a few good signings, a new stadium on the horizon and a majority shareholder who seems to be committed to the cause, I am CHOOSING to look at the glass as being half full for a little while.

It's not easy to do that I know as our history is littered with twisted metal car crashes. All I am saying is you have the choice on how you wish to perceive the coming years and months.

At least he seems to be getting a grasp on what makes a decent football stadium – which is more than can be said for many who take on this task, Arsenal's new ground being a great example of how to fail spectacularly.

We have the makings of a good young team secured under long term contracts, we have a progressive manager with high standards, and in a few years we will have the newest stadium in the EPL! JHC again!

What will it take to put the smile on some of our fans' faces? Personally I am grinning from ear-to-ear. I have not been optimistic about anything EFC-related since the great 1984-85 team started to get broken up post Heysel.

I believe in Moshiri, Koeman et al, it can't be disputed that Kenwright delivered on his promise to sell to the right person/people, and I believe that Dan Meis is doing a thorough job in the design of the stadium. Let him get on with it in his own style – don't forget he is speaking to an upbeat American audience and that is what they expect.

I am sure that when he presents the EFC Stadium designs in this city, he will include excerpts from Schindler's List, the scene where Bambi becomes an orphan and that ending from the Lassie film where she dies, just to pander to those who need their fix of misery. This will not detract from the rest of us enjoying seeing the unveiling of a great stadium that ticks every box, and smashes the running track issue out of sight.

"I am sure that when he presents the EFC Stadium designs in this city, he will include excerpts from Schindler's List, the scene where Bambi becomes an orphan and that ending from the Lassie film where she dies, just to pander to those who need their fix of misery."

Cracking stuff, Dave! Love it!

And Dean Johnson, I'm really glad I don't live in your dystopian world.

Doesn't the thought of the "Everton Experience" at the new stadium grip you more than Betty from Belle Vale dressing up in a blue and white frock and umbrella, tossing the quarter-pound of Everton Mints to the crowd – not forgetting to bung a few in her pocket for her bin lids at home?

I don't think even the brilliant Dan Meis can do much about that. Not that it's much of a problem through yer typical overcast, wet and windy winter months.

But that should make you an advocate of the wonderful 12:30 kick-offs when our players seem half asleep yet that sun-angle is a lot more favourable! Or (gawd forbid) the rumoured 11:30 kick-offs coming for the Aisian market.

No weather, no pesky sun/shade thing going on...

I'm Tweeting Dan right now!

There are two types of people in this world, drains and radiators, I much prefer the radiator type, as the drains do just that, drain you.

Onwards and upwards, Evertonians.

Just nip on a Ryanair flight to Dortmund, give Borussia £20 for a copy of their stadium. Job done.

I've lived through the days of Catterick & Kendall and right through the awful days of Peter Johnson's stewardship of the club. I've watched the awful football churned out by Mike Walker's team and the frustrating dogmatic style of David Moyes's charges.

I was excited when Roberto Martinez arrived and yet delighted when he was sacked. I'm now living on the brink of a potential golden era for my beloved Everton and I don't say that lightly.

I grew up watching Koeman playing for Holland in their better days. I think he wants to be a winner. I think Bill Kenwright has done well in finding Moshiri. I never thought he would actually do it, I'll be honest.

Many younger Evertonians have not endured so many years of hurt and disappointment but they are living in heady days for Everton Football Club, trust me and it's the first time since being a youth watching Alan Ball grace the turf at Goodison that I am truly excited at the coming season and moreover the seasons that are just ahead.

It's just going to get better and better, I can feel the world is turning for us. These mages of the proposed new stadium can only be great news for us all; don't pass up the moment to enjoy them – savour them

However, when bargaining processes begin it is a fundamental essential to have crystal clear two boundaries. That which you will accept, and the terms acceptable.

Aspects which are termed "No! Not even up for discussion. No! No! No!"

I want a 22nd Century Goodison Park.
Rectilinear Football Ground.
Bearpit.
Royal Blue.
Scary.

Away section in Tranmere.

Blue Floodlights.

I want the hairs on me to stand electrified when I approach New Goodison in daylight, let alone nighttime !

I want a sound system that will deafen people in Montivideo when we roll out Z-Cars.

I want the Royal Blue Mersey to boil when the lads or lasses run out.

Four solid sides. Steep and vociferous.

Them Archie Leitch motifs all round...

I'm no advocate of 12:30 kick-offs, Michael. Since moving to the US, a 10am beer with a fry-up is reasonable but 7:30 on a Saturday morning is a stretch!

That would be an excellent idea. I mentioned aspects of Dortmund's stadium in the questionnaire the club sent out recently.

I've been banging on about the Lucas Oil Stadium and as such it is a stadium that has all the attributes we need – 60,000 plus capacity, retractable roof, external brickwork and effectively 4 stands as opposed to a bowl. It is even built from below ground level – very useful considering the infill at the dock!

But oh no – Meis are not going for that. Or is it what Everton's remit is for Meis? Kenwright doing things on the cheap?

This new ground has to be big and "make a statement" – just like the signings on the pitch. Don't fuck it up, Everton.

We wouldn't really want all that much would we? Just a commitment to putting the fans close to the pitch, avoiding the soulless bowl designs.

What else? Some nods to the design of Goodison would be nice, such as the Bullens Road cross-hatchings. I suppose we could ask for a church in the corner too!

Some of his Twitter posts are very encouraging. He watches our games, follows the team, has wallpapered the company conference room with a life-size image of Goodison, with Tom Davies celebrating his goal against Man City.

Some examples of his posts for those who aren't on Twitter:

"Just to be clear, this isn't about Anfield. It is about designing the most intimidating stadium in football."

"Bramley-Moore is one of the greatest sites I have seen in my entire career."

"This is an opportunity to design a stadium to set the standard for English football for generations to come."

"Everyone is focussed on getting this right. You don't easily replace the Old Lady."

"Seriously though, I love this City, love the history and I hear the fans. Working hard to get it done. You have a club that truly cares."

And finally, for those who have been talking about a roof:

"I honestly don't understand the desire for a roof. It would be seldom used and cost far more than a handful of great strikers!"

I personally like the fact that he is actively engaging with fans and showing a great amount of passion for this project.

Oh, and by the way, the wallpaper looks absolutely mint. We should all have a wall in our house that looks like that!

The inside of the ground was warm and dry. It was awful.

"I honestly don't understand the desire for a roof. It would be seldom used and cost far more than a handful of great strikers!"

Use the money else where on players as he suggests.

Exciting times, the club's made a lot of progress over the last 12 months.

I was reading in terms of the Commonwealth Games that the site sits within an English Heritage zone. Are we going to see any obstacles with regards planning permission?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-bramley-moore-stadium-architect-13224345

Stadium architect keen to recognise Goodison Park history

That's good bait you're using mate.

Landed a couple that jumped right into your net.

But my comments are still pretty valid, eh??

A bit more background in Meis, who is an actual Blue (he has tweeted during games)... he has also done the Staples Center, home of the LA Lakers, plus Safeco Field in Seattle, Paul Brown Stadium in Cincinnati, Miller Park in Milwaukee and the rebuild of the LA Coliseum.

His other current projects include Stadio Della Roma and a footy-only stadium in Cincinnati. At every site he gets positive reviews for his emphasis on the fan experience.

Meis is an interesting guy to hear talk... good sense of humor. Here's an extended interview with him from 2011 about his stadium design business and philosophy: http://www.businessinsider.com/vacation-brain-food-2011-6

He's also selling his family home in the Southern California hills if anybody's interested: http://www.latimes.com/business/realestate/hot-property/la-fi-hotprop-dan-meis-calabasas-home-20170315-story.html

The dockside is going to be very cold in the winter my dad was docker for 30 years mainly Seaforth but I know he will have worked at Bramley Moore and believe me he'd come home from work frozen.

Anyway sounds like the architect and the club already have plans as someone intimated about lip service the fan consultation. As far as I'm concerned, it is all me arse and Ifeel the club are going for a cheapo version. The ground might be brand new, modern, intimate seating but I doubt it'll be iconic. Missed opportunity.

I think he really has bought into the idea of steep sides creating atmosphere being No 1.

First with a roof and playing Championship football wouldn't be good.

How on Earth can you say it's a missed opportunity when we haven't even seen the plans? The sheer negativity on here is mind boggling at times.

Yeah, a club famed for firsts... I know, no-one's ever had a plasticine stadium before... let's have one of those. Is that ground breaking enough for you?

A retractable roof is just one aspect of what should be an 'iconic' stadium in my opinion. State of the art as they say. If the club aren't willing to pay for that level, then we will only get what we pay for.

At the end of the day this move is for many future generations of blues so the club has to get it right. I want us to be bold in its design so that everyone can see we mean business on and off the pitch. Make it second to none. For example, capacity should be second only to Old Trafford make it 65,000... We can fill it. It would make a statement..

Maybe I'm alone being so ambitious? I don't just want just a new ground IE a 21st century Goodison Park, I want us to build something that is truly "iconic" and befitting of the waterfront setting. Of which a retractable roof is just one aspect.

It would be like spending $50m on a reserve goal keeper which you wouldn't use much and nobody really cares about.

When you think of all the most iconic stadiums on this planet, does anyone really give a shit if it's got a roof or not? For me, it's all about the shape and the stands.

Plus some of the best games to watch are when it's lashing down.

"Sure Barcelona are a decent team, but can they do it on a wet and windy Tuesday night down at the docks against their new Champions League rivals?" We don't want to make it too comfortable for everyone who visits!

Anyway, from a selfish stance, if there is one thing I would like Dan to focus on above all else, it would be the 'acoustics' of the building itself. Let our new stadium be the most atmospheric there is.

Overlapping multi tiers with Leitch crosses on, a big 'home end' and capacity 60k minimum plus a massive Everton tower in one corner (unique design defining feature and nod to the Church at Goodison) would be my 5 requests.

Gotta be a roof. I'm too old to catch a chill. And I want a stand for my hat and muffler, and a coffee table for my pipe and tobacco and my copy of Country Life (and for Ian Burns to put his gin on).

And moving to Heswall.

Christ on a bike...

Brian, is it nice by the way? I don't get home often enough and normally go into town. Any good places to eat there? Sorry, I know you ain't Trip Advisor

I think Burnley gave up on the initiative pretty quickly, there are quite a lot of cold days in north-east Lancashire and Bob didn't like the expense.

Great idea, surprised no one has really tried anything similar since, although I think there might be a few modern grounds with heated seats in their posh sections (I could be wrong there as our away allocation never seems to be anywhere near the posh bits).

No double-decker bus for me, mind you. Crown Coaches, pick up at Page Moss for all away games back then. Now there's posh!

Retractable seats to provide space for a running track for Commonwealth Games Athletic events, while simultaneously allows fans to be as close to the pitch as possible during a football game.

Retractable roof.

Why isn't there two home ends? Shouldn't what is the best design for a home end be replicated at both ends? Otherwise they're admitting the other end isn't the best possible design? Is this the compromise for the Commonwealth Games?

Having the best possible home ends, at both ends is key to making the stadium intimidating. The end stands create the noise, the sides join in with that noise. So sides should be different designs to the ends.

In stadium design to date, "As possible" doesn't equate to "As Goodison" where a running track is or has been, in terms of closeness. Or perhaps I should say, the closeness is not possible to real world financially feasibility.

From St Rupert's you can see our Liver Birds and the Royal Blue Mersey.

I've said that I do not want to depart "The Grand Old Lady". I just bloody well don't. And I'll not debate why. I just bloody well don't.

Born. No explanation. Understood.

Now, I will accept that we will be moving.
So.

Them granite stones of Bramley-Moore, I bloody like them!

Dan Meis, build me a fortress at Bramley-Moore clad in them granite blocks and make it resound with "Johnny Todd", make me a bearpit to worship my Royal Blues and yours and our great, great grandkids will still know your name.

"Alisher – how do you like the sound of The Megafon Stadium?"

After the success the Dortmund stand has seen and the fact Spurs are trying something similar, why would a famous design man not start with the idea of one super stand that gets other fans talking?

2,000 fans from all over the world visit Dortmund every home game just to be involved in the atmosphere. That is something to be considered if the club wants a new batch of support or attention.

I fully agree with Dean – it's obvious what we don't want in our stadium... but, to be completely honest, I can't see anything that doesn't suit the athletics first. Benches and stands too far from the pitch etc.

Suit-wearing self-acclaimed superstars hardly ever relate to what a real fan wants.

As for the design, I'd be reluctant myself to agree to la arge single stand at one end as then we're getting in to the realms of a "kop end". Say no more. I'd love a ground to be modelled slightly on Old Trafford the two goal ends and their triple decker stand.

And a retractable roof!!!!

Let's hope we're bold enough to do go for it.

And preferably under a sprinkler system to shut them up if they get too loud. With a contingent of blokes who were thrown out of the SS for being too cruel to twat them about a bit for being, well, let's say Kopites or Mancs or Skunks, whatever.

I don't want the away fans having the opportunity to cheer their team on to the detriment of OUR atmosphere. Okay Dan?

I am guessing it's to improve the noise levels and improve the Sky product. As far as I know, Sunderland apart (and they've gone down) all other Premier League grounds already comply with this new rule.

Hampden Park appears to be what people think will be right. Intimidation, Look how far away from the touch line you are. Dan says you will not lose any atmosphere. However, unless he has skills of Paul Daniels it's going to end up similar to Hampden Park.

Dan thinks we will like it, not a lot, but like it. Birmingham for the games, would do nicely.

Perhaps fans mean multi-tiered stands that overlap each other? That would mean more fans are closer to the action, and more intimate. The top tiers in that case would have to be steep to keep it close to the pitch.

Be clear in what you want.

In one of his tweets he commented that he wanted the stadium to "rise up out of the docks". There is the clue.

Bramley-Moore Dock is wide enough and more importantly long enough to accommodate a 110 metre by 68 metre pitch with enough space left over to fill with quite a few rows of seats at the sides and the ends.

In other words, the pitch could be below the quay level with a terrace at quay level say one third of the way up the stands. That would certainly give you a "bear pit".

To accommodate the commonwealth games a temporary falsework support system could be built from the pitch to the terrace level - same as they did at Hampden.

So trust our new blue chum Dan Meis architect – he will give us an atmospheric bear pit stadium.

However, when entering the building, you walk downwards to the lower tier seating.

Just saying.

Just wondering what type of cladding was used at Goodison when they updated the external look...

I'm not sure what you're concerned about. If you listen to those that are involved or read the latest reports when they come out, as I do, you'll realise that they are allaying those fears about the running track should the city get the Commonwealth Games. Hampden Park has no relevance to the new ground other than they hosted the Commonwealth Games recently and had a temporary running track added.

Now what our new ground will look like etc etc is still open to debate I do and will keep hoping that we build something like the Lucas Oil Stadium. Put THAT on the dock and we'd all be very happy.

Sadly, Meis is his own man from what I can gather he won't be copying other stadiums.

Which is exactly the relevance. Being laid out to accommodate a temporary running track has resulted in the stands and hence fans being sited a long way from the touchlines at Hampden.

Reading Mike Connolly's post, it's crystal clear what he's concerned about.

The Ethihad was built as an athletics stadium and later permanently converted to a football stadium. This is why it has very deep (front to rear) and shallow-sloping lower tiers. Even now it is open and set away compared with our current home – the second tiers are further away than those at Goodison.

Since our ground may have to be a football stadium, then house a temporary running track, then revert to a football stadium, The Etihad only shows roughly what we will end up with; which is not something like Goodison.

There is only one realistic way around this, and that would be to not construct the permanent lower tiers until after the running track has been and gone. Even this would result in second tiers further back than we are used to, in order to provide a view of the running track.

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Does this look as close and as intimidating as Goodison?

I guess you've changed your mind.

All we asked for was a footie stadium the fans deserve. But this is Everton – Always a compromise. Remember Kirkby. We had to have a shopping centre included in the plans. And now a running track.

Get a Dortmund type stadium built so our future fans can be proud of it. And not something designed for two weeks games. We don't want our fans thinking like West Ham (extreme example) we're stuck with this for life.

Have a good look at Goodison from your seat next game and see how close you are to the pitch. Then look at the pictures of grounds that have had a running track. You will notice the difference

Absolutely nothing at all to do with comparing Hampden Park and Bramley Moore Dock stadium or Goodison for that matter. Changed my mind on nothing. It was about how they added a temporary running track and subsequently removed it. Get with the programme.

‘Final warning’: Liverpool's Unesco status at risk over docks scheme

"So about allaying fears of running tracks."

The fears were about the design of the stadium by having to have a temporary track, not the process of fitting and removing a track. I wrote this several times, as did many others.

I replied to Ray earlier in this thread, and the relevance of Hampden or anywhere else that has had a track is obvious to the point I'm making; how it affects the layout (you know, "design").

So you post: "Hampden Park it is nothing to do with Everton FC's new ground. Other than they had a temporary running track installed for the Commonwealth Games and therefore, yeah, the seats were further from the pitch."

Are you thick or just argumentative?

Your opinion, my opinion, just opinions, you don't get mine. Who cares, I don't. Move on.

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p.s. turn the sound down!

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