When “Legends” Were Thin on the Ground — Part 1

I will have to check thoroughly before I submit my next offering, at the moment Everton's use of players in the 5-year period has risen to 49.

I realised my mistake almost immediately, and it's caused me a restless night. I'm blaming the seven-week vacation in Southport Hospital.

Thanks for the time you spend John, very much appreciated by us all.

I have seen the vast majority of the players I'm writing about, and coupled with 70 years of watching Everton, and possessing a passion for the club, I have picked up a bit of knowledge along the way.

I must confess that the passion has waned a little during the tenure of the last three managers. Roberto Martinez in his last season as manager started the rot, Ronald Koeman in his time at the helm proved to be a cold fish, and when he discussed Everton, he never once said "We" it was as if he was on the outside looking in.

As for Sam Allardyce, he appears to live on a different planet, I'm fully aware that football is a results driven sport, but if you're going to lose, then at least try to win.

Hi Rick [3] I posted on the 'Egerton and other nostalgia' thread last week, that I would like to meet some of the "ToffeeWebbers" who recently wished me well following my 'Medical episode, I did suggest that the bestl time would be on Sunday July 15th, my 80th birthday. an afternoon diet coke would be ideal.

I have felt a connection with so many people on this site that I would like meet as many of them as possible, putting a face to the name so to speak, perhaps we may get some feedback on the subject.

Some years ago, in 1965, Stanley Mathews, who was at one time the most famous footballer in the world, was appointed manager of Port Vale, but couldn't handle the job.

Bobby Charlton (a World Cup winner) was appointed manager of Preston North End in 1973 another failure.

'Nobby Stiles', another world Cup winner, was also appointed manager of Preston North End in 1977, one more failure.

Arsene Wenger a relatively unknown, was appointed manager of Arsenal in 1996, and won countless trophies. I think enough said.

If you have received it please reply privately, if you haven't please let me know on this thread.

Best wishes, Peter

If you are interested, would you be kind enough to send me a one line email to peter@acsurveyors.co.uk ? No worries if not.

You may know that my Grandson attends the games with me, and has done since he was six years of age. I instructed my daughter to upgrade my season ticket for the last five games of the season, that way he would always have an adult with him so that he wouldn't miss a game.

As we live in Skelmersdale and travel in by train from Ormskirk, I wasn't too keen on him travelling in alone. Everton kindly allowed my daughter to take over my season ticket for the coming season. [I paid for it and that gives me licence to use it if I feel up to going], and to tell you the truth I don't think I'll miss a game.

I had to relinquish my over 65 concession but I thought that was a small price to pay, because it guarantees that Josh will also see every game, and he can keep an eye on me, that seems fair to me because I've looked after him for the last eight years.

Once again thank you for your kind offer, I really do appreciate the fact that you were prepared to do that for a stranger.

You may have read on a couple of threads, that I would like to arrange some kind of a "ToffeeWeb" get together on my 80th birthday (15 July) to give me the opportunity to put faces to names, and to thank people for the good wishes that were extended to me during the worst seven weeks of my life.

I'm so relieved that there was nothing sinister in your approach to me, and I can go to sleep with the window open,

A pint on your birthday sounds a good plan, count me in if the plan develops into a reality.

How do you think the greats of the past would do today? Say, they were allowed the same training, diet etc? Do you think that pure talent would cross generations?

I think it would. I think that Ray Wilson would be great in any era. However, I know, through work, younger Evertonians who think that Everton began with the Premier league. I have referred them to this site and your articles. Keep them coming, they are important, well done.

My dad (God rest his soul) used to mention Wally Fielding a lot when I was just starting out as an Evertonian in the early 60's. Will he get a mention in your coming posts?

On the managerial question - do you think Huddersfield is a good place to find managers?

I've written an article on Wally Fielding, you'll find it on archived fans articles, "The day Wally signed for me". I have just checked and it's still available.

Regarding Huddersfield and football managers, Herbert Chapman was in charge of Huddersfield Town when they won the league title three seasons in a row, although I believe he left to join Arsenal, shortly before they clinched the third title.

I also believe that when Arsenal equalled the feat of three championships in 1932, 33, and 34, Chapman had died in the January of 1934. Then of course there was Bill Shankly.

Hi Ron [16], yes Skelmersdale United were a force in the Amateur Cup in the late sixties, losing a Final replay at Maine Road, and eventually lifting the trophy a couple of years later, at Wembley.

We moved to Skelmersdale in April 1967, 51 years ago, and I have never seen Skelmersdale United play.

Regarding the Huddersfield manager thing, I have to confess I was being a bit mischievous there. It was a sort of cryptic question. I was putting the feelers out for your thoughts on their current manager - feel free not to comment though ;)

Anyway I am sure the current off field activity will have restored your hope for our footballing future. Who knows you might end up back in the Park End at the start of next season.

Up the Blues.

Nicki, my daughter had my season ticket upgraded for the last five games of the season, and when I said that I wouldn't be attending any more games, Everton kindly allowed her to transfer the card to her name, which enables my grandson Josh to continue watching the "Blues.

Naturally I paid for it, losing the discount afforded us old'uns, so having invested so much in josh's football education, it is my intention to be fit for the coming season. He's been my constant companion at Goodison since he was six and he'll be fourteen in September.

I'm a little disappointed in the response to my current article, but as there has been so much upheaval, I suppose it's understandable. I have double-checked and I'm satisfied that Everton used 50 players in the period 1946-47 to1950-51, and as I have covered only six of them I suppose there's time to catch up.

Keep us updated on your birthday celebrations, I'd love to pop as long for a drink and a chat if possible.

However he was a good footballer with two good feet and a powerful shot with either of them. I saw him one Saturday playing for Man.Unt. reserves at Goodison band then the next Saturday playing for Everton in the First Division against Man. Unt, both games ended 0-0, Ted could play on both wings gave good service to the Blues.

For such a slight man he [like Roy Vernon], possessed a mean shot.

I'm glad you've posted, because as you may have seen I'm trying to arrange a get together with some of the people who, through the ToffeeWeb site, wished me well following my vacation in Southport Hospital. Three have already expressed a desire to attend.

Following our previous encounters where we swapped football yarns, over a cup of tea, I thought it would be little more pleasant if we could do it in a pub this time.

As my birthday is on a Sunday, 15 July, I thought a Sunday lunchtime get together would be ideal, depending on where people come from, I would like to pick a venue that suits all.

Having enjoyed our previous chats I would be delighted if you could attend.

It may be considered a bit selfish of me, but because I will travel by train from Ormskirk tp Liverpool Central' it will only be short walk for me, and I'm assuming that the people who have expressed an interest in attending will be from the Liverpool area.

Hopefully I will be feeling a little stronger nearer the date, so if that venue is not suitable, I will fall in with whatever decision is taken.

Apart from you and I, Peter Mills, Bill Griffiths, and Steve Ferns have put their names forward, and because it's my birthday, I'm declaring that 'Five constitutes a quorum.'

You'll know that I'm a stickler for accuracy Dave, so what do you make of this snippet from Dave Prentice in today's Echo. "In 1950/51, Ian Buchan's Blues conceded three or more goals in a single half of football 12 times. Unsurprisingly they were relegated at the seasons end" There may be a 'pint or two' lost this afternoon.

Returning to the possible ToffeeWeb get together, I'm hoping for a better response as there are so many people I would like to thank personally, and it would be nice to put faces to names.

Cliff Britton was manager when Everton were relegated and he was also in charge when we came back up. Cliff left Everton around 1955-56 and then Ian Buchan came on the scene. He was appointed as coach, which was unusual in those days, as were his methods of training and coaching.

H e didn't last long before Johnny Carey became manager.

Regarding your birthday, it is early days yet, John; see what transpires.

They have a term in parliament, which I just can't bring to mind, but it refers to the most venerable member. You are ours.

But it's fair to say that I've seen the majority of players featured in the current theme. I'm pleased to hear that you enjoy the articles, I use them as a sort of therapy to escape all the doom and gloom surrounding the appointment of a new Manager.

Thank you for your kind words.

Edit: Sorry John, I should have read above!

I have seen all the six players named in the first lot but three of them only in the reserve team: Wally Boyes, Stan Bentham and Daniel Cameron and I didn't remember Cameron's first name, only that he played for the reserves and I think he played in a No 4 shirt.

Wally Boyes I saw a few times but again in the reserves, Stan Bentham the same although I remember him well as the first team trainer.

When you get to George Burnett, you might come up with a remarkable fact about George; if you don't, I will tell it — and it wasn't the one about his best game for Everton being the night he played in goal for Oldham, the night we won promotion.

Hi Dave [30], like yourself my stronger memories of the older players is mainly in their Central League games, for example the players you mention, Stan Bentham, and Wally Boyes, but I have no recollection of Pat Cameron.

You may recall that I told you that I don't remember seeing TG Jones play, it would be so easy for me to say I do, but you can't tell lies to yourself can you?

I have no doubt that I will have seen him, how can I remember Peter Corr and not TG? but you may also recall me saying that I can't remember my first game, that's absolutely true.

Often in the pub we debated William Dean and what he'd be like now. If you simply went back in time collected him, and then shoved him into a modern match, then it wouldn't go well. But as you said, what if you allowed him to study the current game, train properly, have a modern diet, etc how would he do then. The consensus usually was that he wouldn't stand out. For Dean to be Dean, he would need to be half a foot taller. He was 5'-10" at a time when 5'-10" was often the tallest player on the pitch. So to have his main strength he'd need to be 6'-5" as well.

The only thing is, I recall Tommy Lawton talking about Dean in a BBC documentary. Tommy died in '96 and he was comparing Dean with Ferguson which means the documentary was made sometime around 1995. Lawton said Dean was better in the air. Duncan doesn't leap properly, because he doesn't need to, was the verdict from Lawton. God knows what he'd make of Crouch's or any of the other beanpole striker's heading technique.

So maybe, Lawton is right and even without making Dean half a foot taller to give him modern big man status, his physical attributes would still be such that he'd be very dangerous in the air.

Bill Shankly was prone to exaggeration, and described him in superlatives comparing him to Beethoven, Shakespeare and Rembrandt. Matt Busby though assessed his skills and said this: “To play against Dixie Dean was at once a delight and a nightmare. He was a perfect specimen of an athlete, beautifully proportioned, with immense strength, adept on the ground but with extraordinary skill in the air.”

I think ultimately, Dean is a footballer from an era where football is more or less a different sport to what it is now. That this era and that era cannot be compared. Put Messi in Dean's boots, on the pitches Dean played on, with the balls Dean used, and the rules and referees Dean had, and I think he wouldn't get a touch and would be hobbling off after a few minutes.

I'd also say that Maradona and Pele could have excelled in any era. Maradona wouldn't be quite so small in the 1920s, and if anyone could dribble with that ball on those pitches, it's him. He also grew up on the mean streets of Argentina where much bigger boys tried to kick him off the pitch and there was no ref, so he'd be able to cope with the physicality.

Pele for me was the greatest player of all time, and he'd be a master of any era, in any position. The young Pele dribbling round Benfica in '62 surpasses Messi for me, whilst the old maestro of 1970, a player almost completely different from the boy of '58, with the pace kicked out of him, but yet the ability to become this magical playmaker, for me that's why he was the best. He lost his main attributes and simply transformed into something else. Therefore, any era, any pitch, any rules, just give him a ball and watch him dominate.

I would put Jimmy Greaves, Eusebio, and yes, slim Jim Baxter in that group. Alex Young, Asparukov, Muller, Neeskens. Actually, I seem to be naming some of my favourite players, and comparing them unfavourably to Best, Pele, Cruyff, Dean, Beckenbauer, Ball, yes, Ball. Blue-tinted specs off, now.

If he'd had the licence rightly now afforded the likes of Messi, God knows what more he could have done. He would be the first name on the team sheet to play Mars as far as I'm concerned, with Bally in midfield, Labby at the back and big Nev in goal. (And sorry, Westy, it was a very close call!)

You will no doubt be aware of my views on themes that are based on conjecture but, if I had to join the debate, I would have to agree with those who say that, given modern day facilities, the talents that the former players possessed would see them through.

I believe that although, Dixie Dean was renowned for his heading ability, the majority of his goals were the results of shots on target.

I feel that the likes of Stanley Matthews, Tom Finney, George Best, etc, would shine in any era. You appear to have converted me to the ranks of those who know in advance, what any future Manager of Everton will achieve.

Ron [39] Harry Potts will feature in the thread, but as far as I know he was never in contention for the role of Everton Manager, and as the players will be introduced in alphabetical order it's likely to be towards the middle'

Steve, regarding the proposed get together, I would prefer it to take place in the Midland Hotel opposite Central Station, but I'm flexible on this issue. Anyone reading this post is quite welcome to join us, it was my gesture to thank those who wished me well following my spell in Southport Hospital.

They both would have been as great as they were but George would have had the same outcome, his career would have ended the same because he didn't take football seriously as he should have done, never looked after himself and put enjoying himself first and his career second.

I believe Tom Finney was just as gifted as George, much more humble (maybe because of the era he lived in) and put his family, club first and looked after himself in order to do so.