Cahill: Everton are confused and lacking chemistry

That's the attitude that goes a long way to winning acclaim as a legend. A player who visibly gave everything he had in every match he played and still talks of "US".

I wish he was at Finch Farm instead of the likes of that never-could-be-arsed tosser Ferguson, who by his own words is now so far up Allardyce's back-side. Hopefully he's expecting to get the boot too and is pre-emptively grovelling, again, this time for a job at Allardyce's next club. Here's hoping.

Couldn't be truer words spoken!

Everton are a soulless rudderless team now with no pride in their own performances and a total lack of regard and clear disrespect for the famous Blue shirt and badge.

Sad when you think it's less than 10 years ago that squad of Cahill, Arteta, Carsley, Pienaar, Osman, Neville, Hibbert ect had that real camaraderie and togetherness about the place and the likes of Cahill would run through brick walls for his teammates.

I don't know where Everton have gone wrong, whether it's too much lavish wages now, too many losers mentalities on board and nobody really hurts when we lose (something you just can't train into a personality) or whether there's too many players who don't know what it means to play for Everton and just simply don't care enough anymore.

But Cahill is right what he says, the trouble is now we have lost our identity I think it's going to be very hard to get the right mentality back because that stems from boardroom right through to management, coaches and more importantly the players where the buck stops and the evidence of a lack of effort is so apparent.

The lack of leadership and direction at board level means mediocrity is allowed to run rife at the club so where does this stop?

This is the crucial point that he makes and the lack of chemistry and camaraderie is what has pulled us down. No heart, no pride, no spirit.

I hope we fix it this summer.

In fact, Martinez was so paranoid about Moyes's influence he got rid of all the backroom people that Moyes had put together.

That is when we started to lose our identity and team and club spirit and it's gonna take a much better man than Allardyce to put us back on a level footing let alone challenge the top 4.

Those responsible should be held to account.

The balance has shifted somewhat from togetherness and putting heart and soul on the line for the team. To personal career progression with maximum financial gain.

I'm talking about a shift in the mentality of some of the players we have.

Others, like Seamus Coleman play for the team and the club first. Any personal gains are secondary and probably not even thought about. It's why he is loved by every single Evertonian.

Any real success needs a full team of such characters inherent or converted, it doesn't matter.

Its not just lacking chemistry, there is no identity with many of these players as 'Everton' players.

Moshiri ballsed up the hiring of Koeman and Walsh. He has a second chance to put that right this summer. Get it wrong again and will have to start questioning him and his motives, Kenwright mark two perhaps.

The fact is Koeman, changed way too much, too soon, and we have had too many new players, with their backs against the wall for most of this season.

I would say if we could find a mixture between Allardyce and Martinez, we would probably end up with a good manager, but it's only my opinion, because neither of them are good enough for Everton, and even though Allardyce, seems more professional, his football has got no soul, and this is what has destroyed everyone else's soul.

He's right in what he says. We have tried to move on too fast and with that we have lost our identity. Every new manager has brought in his own style of players to suit the way he wants the team to play and every manager wants the team to play differently so at the moment we have players running around with no idea of what style of football to play.

With Martinez he wanted to keep the ball in the middle with passing just for the sake of it without any attacking effect and poor defending.

Koeman wanted a slow build up without any speed or energy and totally drained the team of any confidence.

Allardyce has made us more compact but we are lacking any style and are brainwashed to think a draw against a relegation threatened team is a good result.

We need an identity, we need a style, we need players with energy, we need to get rid of the slow lumbering players who are just not good enough.

For me the players to go would be:

Rooney
Klaassen
Schneiderlin
Williams
Martina

Also a few older players who we need to look at replacing and start to bring the younger players through. I think we are all just waiting for the end of the season now and hopefully get a manager in who will give the fans and team a boost.

Hopefully lessons have been learned by Moshiri and his Jim White whispering has seemingly ceased.

If we land a manager with vision things can turn pretty quickly. But it's worrying that Sam is still in charge. We desperately need to be making decisions NOW about next season.

We have lost ambitious players in the past our problem is we don't have any left. This lot seem to be content just coasting it.

He was followed by Thierry Henry, who also made a significant and very valid point. We as fans don't KNOW what we want, and that's what we need to be discussing on ToffeeWeb, not some diatribe on Jesus's influence on modern days society and how we will have to answer on judgement day for our sins!!

So come on guys, what DO we want? Lyndon? Michael? how do we get the bus rolling because as sure as hell Timmy is right and we NEED to decide who we are and what we want and deliver it to the club. A statement of Intent of who we are, how we approach the game, why its so important, what are our objectives to identify success? What is success when you don't have billions to spend?

The way we play is more important than winning, if we do it right we will win. We will all win. The dissent needs to be buried, the broom needs a sweep at the club and in ToffeeWeb. We need to unite around what it means to be Everton at any and every level.

We need to add value to the debate and not just condemn, but that's difficult with a clubs directors who don't trust their own supporters. We have so much to offer too.. and we have to trust in a vision that we all agree on.

I stopped writing articles a couple of years ago partly because I could not add any value to Everton as a club. Its time a line was drawn in the sand and we all move forward.

It starts with a new manager and a new vision. Thank you Timmy.. the penny dropped.

We can expect more of the same if a new manager comes in and changes too many people too. Next season will be just about rebuilding. I hope we get the new person in asap or with the World Cup in the summer, we can expect yet another poor preseason and a crap start.

I'd argue we need a three year long core of players to steady the ship.

I'd say:

Pickford, (Captain) Seamus, Holgate, Keane, Davies, Gilfy, Kenny, and Rooney. A mix of youth and experience that could find that “chemistry” in my opinion.

Why Rooney?

Because he has more talent in his pinky toe than anyone else and the younger players can learn a ridiculous amount from him.

Everyone else is expendable or can be replaced.

And if you make the argument Rooney should go, fine. I get it.

A Club that gives back with increase (EITC), signs solid human beings not mercenaries, led by a manager who will play open but not reckless football and not be scared to actually attempt to win three points every single game.

A tall order to be sure, but a goal to have and one that is not unattainable.

He's right, most of us liked Martinez, but he only had half a plan, and Thiery, will find this out for himself, if he hasn't already?

Koeman, was 100 times worse than Allardyce for me, simply because he never appeared to have a real system, or plan, and this has pushed Everton, back a few years.

Allardyce seems professional, but his football is both joyless, and souless, and therefore can never really be accepted by us long suffering fans?

What do we want? We Probably all want something different? but for me, it's about pride, and its about intelligence, and if we can find these two ingredients, then I'm sure the crowd will re-unite, and Goodson, will become a much happier place?

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe we can unite, next week against Newcastle, because if we don't get rid of Allardyce, and try to start again, then maybe we might lose our identity, for a long, long time?

Integral part of the squad of bottlers who won nothing and played nearly 50 games without an away win at the usual suspects. Legends night on a loop here we come.

Can't wait to tell my grandkids about the time when we nearly won one of those away games. No doubt he'll be back for another coaching role with the other 'legends' like Jeffers & Unsie. Fuck me. We're Boltonesque.

What this club is crying out for is a winning mentally and an understanding that anything less is unacceptable.

I think you know I feel you're a very valuable contributor on TW. I like you, straight up. But your response may be the single most disappointing thing I've ever read on these pages.

To marginalize a former player who bleeds Blue, and is clearly hurting seeing where the Club are currently, and is lending his voice and opinion to the subject of improving the Club, is counter-productive.

Tim Cahill would run through brick walls for this Club. In a time where we had very little capital, liquidity, and were strapped, this man took the pitch and always gave 100%. I highly doubt at that time, an FA Cup final aside, there was realistically much he could do about winning trophies. But he sure as hell tried to.

Why in the world would any of us bash a former player who has his heart set firmly in the best interests of the Club? And one who uses his former position as a loved and admired player to try to lend his voice to the debate to improve the Club he loves!

It's exactly that type of negativity that stops meaningful discussion of what Christine aptly asks @17 - what do we want?

Listening to a man's opinion who bled for the Club and taking it on board does not equate to us being "Boltonesque".

In fact, it might go a long way to stoping us from becoming "Boltonesque".

You might have heard my sigh of despair when I read your post from across the Atlantic?

Ripping Tim Cahill of all people branding him a "bottler(s) who won nothing" when all he's done is put forth his thoughts and opinions of how to actually help Everton makes very little sense to me.

Why?

Now it is all about, money, winning at any cost and anyway they can, lots of the actual football is very good but from three or four teams, and even that is a possible exaggeration, but winning no matter how is the main point of today's football and I don't think that will change.

For me watching an Everton team playing with good quality football is what I would love to see, playing hard but fair is another expectation and winning honours playing like that would be a lovely extra bonus.

In a nutshell I would like the modern game to be more like it was not too long ago before Sky TV and the money it brought came spoilt the game, possibly even ruined it.

Are you stark raving mad... Allardyce? The best management we had at Everton was the Moyes legacy of defensive discipline without taking unnecessary risk and good organisation as well as a team collective. Add Martinez “Go and express yourselves philosophy” just like dogs being let loose of the leash and we had the perfect combination.

We need a manager who will:

1. Gain the respect of the players.

2. Allow each player to be the best they possible can without fear of taking risks.

3. Mould each individual into somebody who can contribute to a team philosophy. (Chemistry).

4. Believe in the the Everton Motto. Nil Satis Nihi Optimum.

Who can answer that call I do not know but we cannot appoint another manager who sees the job as a stepping stone to greater things. He has to believe in Everton Football Club.

I would have loved if Unsworth was the man but alas the opportunity came too early. Moyes (who I would not have back) is the type of person we want but now the manager would have the resources to bury the type of player who'd fits the club ethos.

Besides the team of the 80s, players like Coleman, Cahill, Carsley and even at the risk of being ridiculed, Rooney who is an Evertonian at heart and has a role to play in Team Building even though he not longer capable of controlling a game for 90 minutes.

TC is one of the very few that I could be bothered to remember when the dust settled on Moyes's term. As Jamie says, he would run through walls for the club and never gave up or an inch on the field.

I for one hope he's doing his coaching badges and we do see him back at Goodison, because it certainly wasn't his fault we won nothing under Moyes.

For 20 years we have suffered under that kind of negativity. Not only did we suffer we actually lapped it up by making excuse after excuse for the self promoting clowns.

With barely complaint the match going fans have put up with garbage players who are rewarded with a fortune for making a mockery of our once proud shirt. Not only have we not complained about them (some of us have) but these frauds have garner their own fan clubs that leap to their unworthy defence.

What is really annoying is how we drive the few good players out of the club. A multitude of reasons can be found for their leaving but deep down that situation was not helped a board and managers who failed to provide a glimmer of hope.

The first thing the club needs is unity.

The owner, manager, players and fans have to be together and attacking the new season as a unified force.

Only then does a club become more than the sum of its parts. That's what I want Everton to be.

For me the process starts with a new regime June 1st, new manager, new DOF, and an off field approach that is comparable or better than any of the top 4.

I want to see JCBs at Bramley-Moore this year.

If all that can be achieved we will be going places.

Kenwright's mishandling of the clubs affairs are the only cause of our decline and heaping the blame on Allardyce for our lack of identity is just what Bill will be hoping for as he moves into retirement. A lot of people have fell into his slippery trap.

He could not do it alone but have lost count of the number of times he popped up with a goal in The Derby, against City, a player who was not even our striker but popped up with some unbelievable goals.

We may not have too many players we can look back on, over the last 20 years, but Tim Cahill is right up there at the top on goals, a will to win and giving 100%.

Not often I disagree with you Kev, but I do on the Tim Cahill comment.

Despite being decidedly shite plenty of times in the past, it wasn't until under his watch and hoisting of the 'People's Club' banner that a widespread acceptance of 'plucky' failure and a gradual repositioning of such as 'sort of success' begun to worm it's way into the Evertonian soul.

Over a decade in which supporters were made out by journalists, pundits and those 'in the game' to be bolshy ingrates with delusions of grandeur if they weren't fully satisfied with 'miraculous' Moyes inspired mid-table security and the odd peek up the skirt of whoever was bringing up the rear of the top four...then the top six... now and again. Over a decade in which the club tried to make us believe such unspectacular drifting was worthy of rejoicing and releasing commemorative DVD's of ('The Magnificent Seventh', 'The Elation Of Eighth', 'Fifth, Fifth, Fo Fum, Even Had A Fucking FA Cup Run').

The players at the club during that period may have had a bit more heart than the current rabble, but they were hardly adverse to coasting along in their comfort zone, or collapsing on their arse when the pressure cranked up, themselves.

In my opinion, by far the best team Moyes ever put together was in 2007-2008, yet they still blew it/bottled it twice, to the surprise of absolutely nobody. Firstly, against Florentina when they had a great chance to get to the latter stages of the Europa League and again in the Premier League,when a top four finish looked to be on, after they had pulled ahead of one of the most pish RS sides in recent memory.

A familiar story though.

Champions League Qualifier? Bottled it. European Consolation Cup v Bucharest: Bottled it. FA Cup Final and a first minute lead? Bottled it. FA Cup Semi-final and 1-0 up going into the second half? Bottled it.

Would I rather that than the dismal fare we have witnessed the last few seasons? Well sure, I suppose I would, if it was reduced to a simple choice between the two, but I certainly wouldn't finger that era of little victories as being emblematic of the sort of Everton 'character' I would dearly love to see coursing through the veins of the club once more (no matter how colossal a boner the 'be careful what you wish for' brigade may currently be packing).

Fancy "The Magnificent 7th" dinner at then end of the season? Apparently,, there's an actual DVD that was released as a souvenir. Incredible, eh?

PS Love Tim Cahil, he was beautifully just above average

Martinez teams bottled a fabled CL place many of our support crave over silverware when we had Arsenal on the rack and threw two semi finals away. We even threw a two goal lead away at the Etihad and our bright young things conspired to miss chance after chance at Wembley and defend appallingly.

Ultimately it all boils down to the same thing. We were average then and we are worse now but it still equates to the same thing. Mediocrity.

What did happen though is whenever we got to a cup semi or final, we never had the likes of Sunderland, Wimbledon, West Ham or Birmingham City, it was always the likes of utd, City, Chelsea and our neighbours we came up against.

The last time we had any luck on our oppenents in a final goes way back to 84 Watford, every final after that has come against the very top sides.

Not once have we had any luck a weaker team getting to a final against us.

I look at the likes of Baines the same way. A player that was happy to just sit at Everton and not win a damn thing when he reportedly had the chance to join a club to compete for titles and the pressure that would involve, I don't respect that. That's a Mark Noble type, something associated with small clubs that accept repeated failures. A player like Lescott or Stones is hated, yet they are willing to risk an easy for the chance to compete at the highest level.

I liked Cahill, he was a tough player that always tried his best. But he was limited as well and his years included zero trophies. That in no way should be seen as a dislike of Cahill. I just don't buy into this legend status and worshipping those players of those years. But we keep Duncan Ferguson employed so I guess I'm not surprised.

As I say, we were 'Boltonesque' long before BSA arrived.

Nepotism is usually a bad thing, and in any competitive jobs you should have people around you who dare to be critics, and who can think in another direction than yourself. I dare to say a blood brother don't fit that bill.

I believe this says something about Koeman; he doesn't take to critics at all, and, he believes power should stay within the family. Not good trademarks in my humble opinion.

He used money as a drunken sailor, with little to show for it. He could not keep players as he had no plan, and they knew. "Let's get off this ship..."

He did not get on a friendly tone with the fans. As charmless as a toothbrush.

He used players without seeing their abilities or lack thereof. One could believe he played the players most up his ass. Not the one suited for the game.

And now that arsehole is manager for the Dutch nationals? What the hell is going on??

We've a lot of average now; we'd a lot of average then. Cahill wasn't one of them.

Tim Cahill bled for Everton as did Duncan Ferguson before him.

It grieves me to see these guys vilified by some on here.

We didnt win anything under Moyes largely because the man was never given any money to spend by "I'm skint" Bill and cronies.

We got a lot closer than we should have done though given what we did spend.

At least those teams did have a go unlike the current crop of mercenaries.

Fairly regular top six finishes always close to the RS.

Now there is a chasm.

And if there is one individual to blame for it all its the now rich while not putting a penny of his own into the club BPB.

I was lucky to enough to be there in the eighties and unlucky enough to see so much dross afterwards but Cahill would have always been one of my favourite players no matter who he played with. Much as we 'bottled' or blew it so many times, nobody should forget that we were a team playing under severe financial constraints. His comments are spot on.

You say always having a go, but that is categorically not true under Moyes. Moyes would send out teams filled with defenders and no striker. He's out Neville and Heitinga in midfield together. Those years are the reason why Martinez was such a breath of fresh air when he first arrived, when he said we go to win every match.

You obsess with this “mercenary” term while ignoring Baines, Coleman, Jagielka, being a common thread of those teams that have won nothing. Meanwhile it was Lukaku that came here and got us the goals we needed. It was Fellaini under Moyes they came here and was the player desired by clubs above us. It was Arteta that came here and started in our midfield before being poached by a club above us. Duncan Ferguson meanwhile continues to milk the club for a paycheck while delivering absolutely nothing, along with his buddy Kenwright.

Jay, that's the same Duncan Ferguson who 'bled' for Everton that asked "how did you lads go on yesterday?" when he arrived at training after another game he was sitting at home on a suspension for being sent off. The same fella who said he "didn't like football."

Kiss the badge all you want. He's another phoney.

Tim Cahill hit the nail on the head. He is worthy of our respect, if you don't like that, well tough.

No diversions guys... who are we, how are we to be defined as a club? Just answer the questions without condemning I really would like to know, because after all, should it be something we believe in or something we are given?

How can a player with over 350 games be so lacking in skill his extremely rare attempt at crossing a decent ball is met with roars of surprise. In the course of all those games spread over 12 years, he scored not a single goal. There are 2nd-raters who came from nowhere collected a few million quid then vanished into nowhere not even crying on their way to the bank.

Tim Cahill is one of the few from that period who can hold his head up high. Lawd! I wish we had a young Timmy right now,

He may not have much left in the engine but I believe he has more passion than the rear quarters of the current team. His role is in the future not the present, mate.

I have no problem saying what I want this club to be. Sadly, the answer is right across the park. Klopp came in and brought a passion and enthusiasm, a love of the club, supporters and every one of his players. We hate it when we see him jumping around and kissing his players. But if he was doing that in blue instead of red, we'd love it. I want that passion from the manager and the players, that level of effort while going into every match to not just win but dominate. The polar opposite of the Mourinho's approach, which make no mistake also gets results.

So shoot me for saying it, but that is what I am so envious of these days. I want to be signing these incredibly talented players that are sent out there with the mindset to destroy their opposition. When a big player wants to leave we don't just sell at the first asking but instead hold out for the price we want. A team that plays fast and is always on the attack. And a team that is expected to compete for every trophy each and every season. And by the way, a Cahill type of player would work in that type of team. A Schneiderlin type would never touch the grass.

Sam OldSpice isn't an Evertonian, I've never been convinced by Drunkan either.

It's the players that matter, just somebody who loves the game, loves the Blue (while they're here) and shows some of the joy that we'd see when Cahill would leg to the corner flag and give it a punching.

Jay, I like and admire admire Tim Cahill but, really, "he bled for Everton"? He did, to the very best of his ability, what he was hugely paid for. So we fucking worship him for that and think that his opinions have special status because he actually tried?

Many years ago highly talented Everton players gave their all for little pay. Don't confuse them with Duncan "the legend" Ferguson who gave fuck all for loads of pay.

Moyes did not have the cash to bring in a lot of players and he could only change two or three each season. As a result, the core of the team was solid. Who are the players who love Davies and Calvert-Lewin for the time being. But Bolasie, Walcott, Gana, Schneiderlin, I don't think so. You can afford to have a few mercenaries on the team but you must have a core, players like Tim.

We, all of us, know what the problems are. We, all of us, know what we DON'T want to be, what doesn't work, we see it every week.

None of us know ALL of what is needed to fix them, we all know bits here and bits there, some of us attach more credence to this bit than that bit.

When Catterick won the title with half of Carey's team, we lapped it up, I thought we were the epitome of hard but fair...(Seems we were so hard and fair that the London press outright said we kicked Spurs out of it... but they would say that!)

We want 'joined-up' footy, a bit of entertainment, goals. WINS. But you don't get that without attitude and effort.

And if we can win something playing like that all the better.

Tim Cahill was... nice one Kevin... beautifully just above average. There is nobody in the squad who could, straining on tip toe, brush a finger tip on the sole of his boot.

That's the second problem to be addressed, the first problem... and I fear we'll only have one go at this, is to find the right persons to address it.

I could be wrong, but neither are proven in the Premier League. Both are likely to buy another 5 or 6 foreigners, adding into a group that already don't give a fuck. The bit of quality in Coleman, Jagielka and Baines will be another year older, so it'll be shit or bust whether they can deliver quick enough to cheat the hangman. This seems the wrong strategy to me.

I'd go down the English route and get Eddie Howe. He plays with style, is in it for the long term, is respected and would have the pick of up and coming players through the leagues. He's ready for his next challenge, and would offer the possibility of exciting football with a British core. This is important to our club. We are never going to be happy with XI mercenaries, as we aren't Chelsea - not are they ever going to be good enough that skill will win the day.

I'd fetch him tomorrow, and ensure he has a long contract and plenty of money to spend over 6 windows to turn it around. We need to be patient, but I'd buy into that strategy.

So please explain to me why we need a British guy and a British team while we watch liverpool march on with a German manager and a star lineup consisting of an Egyptian, Brazilian, 2 Dutch, Senegalese, German, among others.

Honestly, what you just wrote is to me the problematic mindset of this club. It has to be British and up-and-coming and for some reason anti-foreign players and the worst of all has to have experience in the Premier League. Right, because Conte, Pep, Klopp, Wenger, Mourinho, Benitez all were brought up in the English game... right?

Some time ago somebody wrote of the swagger of Evertonians. We didn't go to the match wondering if we could win, we knew we could but it had to be with style, panache and originality. How we loved Bally trapping the ball with his backside, even Rooney doing his Bally impression by looking at where his watch should be wondering when the defender standing off would do something, Colin Harvey making offside tactics and deep lying defenders look silly ideas. We had Tommy Wright, Ray Wilson, Keith Newton and Henry Newton and they were only the full backs. The motto was something we aimed at fulfilling, we didn't need to explain that we ARE one of the BIG clubs.

The end started when john Moores started relinquishing the reins, appointing shop managers to run the club where the accounts and bottom lines became more important and now it must finish with the train set being relinquished, no hanging on trying to be the best Evertonian ever. We missed the boat that City sailed on and now we need to aim for and get the best but unfortunately we seem to have this mind set which asks, "But who would come to us". That is what needs to change, bring back the swagger, from top to bottom.

Please do not misunderstand me, whilst he played for Everton I alaways felt he grasped the ethos of the club even if not being the very best. He strove to be.

However since leaving Everton, Cahill has mastered brand management from the Red Bull's, to the A league & China. A very savvy lad.

Even the move to Millwall is great PR, to keep him ticking over for one last swing at a World Cup with Australia.

Whilst many cannot bring themselves to grant the lad legend status, more rather best of a mediocre bunch. I would say that group of players never left me feeling diveroced from the club, disconnected and largely apathetic.

I think it would be better framed as the cult of Tim Cahill.

Your couple of statements here condense it all to what is needed.

“I want talented players who have the mindset to go out there and destroy the opposition.
A team that plays fast and always on the attack.”

Teams like that win the biggest trophies, and cement themselves into the top 4. It has been the footballing model of Man City and Liverpool for a good few years. Not many teams can live with it.

We need to find our own Mane and Salah / Sane and De Bruyne and find a manager who can energise and motivate.

I looked Tim Cahill, especially in big games, he's looked after himself well to still be playing and earning a living from football, it's all about ego with Tim, keeping himself ahead of the game, career wise, so good luck to him for that.

I thought Kevin Tully wasn't far off the mark with his assessment of Tim as a player,but it's all about opinions, each to his own.

Going to Goodison has become a fucking bore, a total nothing-ness. There is no atmosphere and I really mean "no atmosphere", then I have to sit and watch the most shite football since I've been turning up and for an encore, I get to listen to the away fans continually take the piss out of how shit Goodison and Everton Football club is. Are they wrong?

For me, Cahill makes valid comments about our club and they are well worth listening too. Whether or not Cahill gets into your all time favourite footy team is irrelevant, Tim Cahill is telling us that Everton Football Club has well and truly lost it's way.

I used to comment on TW quite regularly but so much has happened over the past 5, 10 or 15 years that it just seems to not matter that much any more. Lot's of people have made lot's of money from this great club and for me that's what has become so important to the players, the many managers and their huge wad of hangers-on claiming to be coaching staff and of course, the board-room boys.

To the board, the supporters and their opinions are meaningless and for me we, the supporters, have become meaningless. How many clubs let that happen to their own supporters, FFS, Everton Football Club has seriously been fucked right up.

I knew what I was writing, that word processor didn't.

There aren't alot of answers on here but David Barks @54 gives it a good shot. Loathe to admit it but I think most on here would love us to be playing with the skill and identity of the RS.

I disagree though when he says a Cahill type would work in that setup. I don't think it would. They rely on pace and good technique to transfer the ball quickly into danger areas and hurt teams on the counter. Cahill was neither quick nor the most accurate passer. Though he did work very hard, as nearly all of Klopp's players do. Firmino is a great example; he's a skilled brazilian with flair and pace in abundance but my lord does he work hard to cover ground and make himself available. The likes of Lookman, Dowell and Vlasic would do well to follow his example.

I started following Everton closely in the 90s and so Moyes' was probably the era that I remember most fondly. The identity we had in those days was of a team that fought for everything, that worked hard to be better than the sum of its parts. I think that would be a good place to start. As much as we would love to play like RS or City I think that maybe the title winning Leicester team is a more realistic target in the short term. A team that was solid defensively but had enough going forward to always score, that was resilient but entertaining, that played with passion and belief.

My Everton team:

1. Gives everything. Fights from first whistle to the last. Any player not leaving drenched in sweat has not done enough. And no team looks forward to playing us.

2. Is solid and organised but always looking to win. Somewhere in between Mourinho/Moyes and Klopp/Martinez. The defence is good enough that we never fall back to 11 men behind the ball. It's not reckless but we are always looking to score 1 more.

3. Has pace and energy in abundance. No old school 'got a good brain' types. Smarts is important but this is a mobile team who will never come second in the physical battle that is the Premier league. More David Silva than Wayne Rooney.

4. Has belief. We may not win the title but we'll give it a shot and believe that we can give anyone a good game.

5. Is honest. Call me old fashioned but I don't want to see diving or conning the ref. Don't confuse honesty with niceness though, I don't want us to be the quiet retiring types, I want us to be in the ref's face, appealing to the crowd, playing the game hard. I also don't want to hear placatory interviews. If you play shit then put your hand up and admit.

6. Entertains. A few tricks here. A cheeky swag there. An over the top celebration. A bone crunching tackle. A 6-0 drubbing of whichever dross Allardyce is managing next season. Us Everton fans deserve a smile.

4 seasons too late if you ask me. He perpetuated the loser mentality that is so ingrained in the club right now.

Moyes, Martinez, Koeman, Fat Sam.

How lucky we have been.

Now we appoint our first Official Club Ambassador, a man while he was playing at Everton was arrested Charged and Convicted of Drink Driving.

Moshiri & Kenwright are responsible for the tarnishing of our great Clubs image.

Why on earth was that team of the sixties broken up? Same with the 70 title winning team. Then you have Heysel, but did Kendall, Steven, Stevens have to leave?

We signed a superstar in Kanchelskis but did we try hard enough to keep him? Did Joe Royle leave too soon? I am also sure we let Lineker go too easily. Rooney went for peanuts as did Ball.

If a player does not want to be at our club, then I agree in getting shut but the people in charge should be doing more to keep the players with us.

Do we have an inferiority complex about ourselves as a club? How many players and managers have left us who could have made a difference to our history??

We are never going to sign eleven world beaters, so we need to get a team blend of fight and guts, and I think having British players in will make a difference. Foreign managers buy in the markets they know, and as I say I think Howe could successfully skim the English leagues for players we need.

Yes clubs have gone out and hired top foreign coaches, but how many have inherited such a mess and successfully turned it around with no real experience of the Premier League? The managers you list are top quality, but not what we can attract bar Benitez, and the rank and file won't accept him after his small club comments.

We need managerial stability. I fear the foreign approach is likely to fail, and continue the turnover of managers and players. We need green shoots if recovery, patience before the money runs out. We need fucking hope.

I think the difference in opinion comes down to can a player be a legend if the team haven't won anything. I believe they can, just as a player with a winners medal isn't automatically a legend.

We nearly all agree the best way to move forward is to get in a new manager. Let's start with that.

Improve style without compromising Premier League safety. Fits the club, suits the players and is well enough respected and known to bring in 2 or 3 quality players. I don't think bringing in another 10 new players will work, been there and got the "embarrassed" t-shirt. Even Pep had to wait 3 transfer windows to identify and get the right players in.

I'm all in for Mancini. I believe his time in Russia is up, he's done a very good job in another new league. I believe he'd love another crack at the Premier League and knows the Northwest.

I'm worried that Arsenal, Spurs if they lose Pochettino, and Chelsea could be interested but hopefully not and we can get an experienced winner that will take us forward.

Probably more a counter-attack style, depending on the recruitment and how we start the season. I'm not expecting to break into the top 6 but 2-3 seasons of improved style and a chance of battling the top sides would be a huge step forward and then reassess.

Think i'd rather have Paredes over Mancini from them.

Their agents tell them they can do better financially elsewhere, other players tell them they can do better elsewhere. Sometimes their families do too. The stick they sometimes get from the crowd tells them the same thing. No wonder players like Joleon Lescott, Jack Rodwell and others choose greener pastures.

Tim Cahill's point, however, is that we have lost our way as a club. Hiring Sam Allardyce is a symptom, not a cause of that lost way. Getting us back on track must begin with unloading him and some of the dead wood we have gathered over the last several years.

I believe with TC on the pitch, be it in the colours of Everton or Australia, a game was NEVER surrendered, never lost, until the final whistle.

To how many of our current squad can you apply the same label?

Other sides hated playing against TC because they knew they would be battered and bruised by the end of the game.

I would also dispute he was merely a 'beautifully above average footballer.' He wasn't only a 'boxing kangaroo,' a battering ram of a footballer. He had more guile, ability and technical skill than many Evertonians are willing to credit him with.

Also, bracketing TC with Duncan Ferguson is an unjust one. He gave far more to the Everton cause than DF ever will.

As for his comments, they ring true for so many of us and I do not question his sincerity for uttering them, or cynically believe they are self-serving, only interested in promoting 'Brand Cahill' as one poster suggests.

TC's comment provoked Christine to lay down her challenge to fans 'what is it we want?'

As the replies to Christine's question demonstrates, I think her question is an academic exercise in futility. You simply are not going to get coherent consensus from such a broad open question from the fans.

In answer to that question, the lead needs to come from the club. For me, it is very simple. Two things will change everything from the downward cycle of inertia we are currently witnessing which is alienating so many, to a tsunami of upward positivity.

As I have already advocated on these pages:

1) appoint the former Southampton Chairman Nicola Cortese as our CEO and give him the absolute executive powers he enjoyed at the Saints. As the man who first brought Pochettino to these shores, Cortese should also be central in addressing the second point.

2) find us our 'Pochettino'. I have no idea who this could be.

Do this and you will see positive change in the club's workings in days, certainly weeks, which will give confidence to the fan base AND the playing staff.

Cahill hasn't a medal to show for his illustrious time at Everton. The identity of The People's Club and punching above our weight was perpetuated by club and media spin, to cover poor performances and no progress.

The result being one top four place and a preseason after, which was more like a holiday tour. Everton were down in the mouth when they got back.

As for the identity that I want at Everton? I want a team whose captain will show the ref and opposition that his team isn't going to just accept whatever you give them (Jags is fantastic at nodding and turning away). I want a team who kicks a ball to where it should go, unlike the underhit passes we've come to see so regularly. But most importantly, I want a team that hates losing, and we haven't had that for a very, very long time.

Who wouldn't want him in our team now?

I love Timmy but come on... I don't want him in our team now. We have plenty of aging has-beens surely. This romance with the past has to stop!

I am not for bringing back Moyes by any means but please put things into perspective. If you consider distinctly average as regularly achieving 6th/5th and even 4th place with the budget that Moyes had, then I think many would bite your hand off.

In those years, we were ahead of Spurs and were competitive with many of the top teams except we didn't have enough belief. We have gone progressively down hill since then and most of it is because we have lost leadership, organisation and discipline. Yes, Moyes was not ambitious enough but he certainly got the best out of his team.

My original point was to contend your claim that we need a manager who was a cross between Allardyce and Martinez. I think he should be a cross between Moyes and Martinez. That season Martinez took over, he inherited the organisation and discipline of a Moyes squad but allowed them the freedoms and belief to play football. Problem was that Martinez believed it was his creation and lost the organisation and discipline to mould a team, and hence the wheels weren't long coming off the wagon.

I'm not in favour of big-name ex-players as managers because they have too big an ego and not enough managerial skills. I have no idea who we should go for but Dyche is doing some job at Burnley and should be worth consideration. I don't know how he would handle the egos of some of our squad though.

In fact the only manager who has raised our spirits since the Howard Kendall era has been Moyes who,while we didn't win anything exceptional under his reign still brought a team that got us excited and gained us worldwide respect by the quality of our skills and sheer effort both on an off the field.

we are no longer regarded as a force to be reckoned with,even by the media, the name Everton is now rarely mentioned in footballing terms except in the past tense and sarcastic asides, all justified, as we continue to be ruled by another team of miscreants and losers with no end in sight, Well Said Timmy lad, always loved.

I'd go even further Jay and recall that Cahill was often second only to Lampard as the best attacking midfielder in the league. For sure some seasons weren't as prolific as others but his initial return of 11 goals in 33 games from midfield and 7 in 18 a few years later speak for his potency.

What does it even mean to call him a limited footballer? Aside from being superb in the air, being able to strike the ball with either foot, perform acrobatic overhead kicks and time his runs into the box to near perfection I guess, yeah, he was limited. Just like 99.9% of footballers who ever played the game professionally then (ffs).

As even his detractors point out, it has been a long time since we've had any silverware to crow about. During this famine I often gauge an Everton side on how it performs against our neighbours. Everton under Moyes were disappointingly poor but Tim Cahill wasn't.

First player since Dixie Dean to score in three derbies at Anfield - occasionally a mere consolation but at Goodison he was instrumental (and scored) in two resounding wins.

There are no prizes for winning a derby but there is a hell of a lot of pride. In an era of slim pickings I'll take Tim Cahill's record, performance and attitude.

New rules then. Let's have Kanchelskis, I really liked him. And Waggy Watson, he was good. Then there was Alan Ball. Before him Brian Labone and Gordon West...

Heck, what about Dixie Dean? Sam Chedgzoy was supposed to be pretty good at corners... and yes, Alex 'Sandy' Young – that winning goal in the 1906 FA Cup Final!!!

I'll stop now.

I'd love to, but I'm still wankered from the "We're off to a flyer: A winning start to 2006" tenth anniversary.

Link

'Off to a flyer' not at the start of the season, but in January...when we were down near the bottom of the league and had failed to win 18 out of 25 games in all competitions.

Scenes.

He was a decent player with the ability to pop up with a goal, no argument with that.

The club lack a clear identity at the moment? The corner flag is nodding furiously in agreement as you knock fuck out of it, Tim.

However, when he finishes by slipping in the suggestion that the 'lost identity' we should now be lamenting is the one that lingered during a fallow eleven year period, in which the pinnacle was a solitary 4th placed finish achieved with the same points total Ronald Koeman managed to rack up last season then, sorry, I think he's painting a very parochial picture of the Everton examplar, from a pallette extending no further back than Ground Point Ginge.

If being happy finishing 'best of the rest' and embracing underdog status ever amounted to a unique, enviable, identity then it was one formed on the back of belittling felicitations for fuck all and nowhere near enough to leave me feeling misty-eyed or forlorn.

Cahill also suggests that, perhaps, more patience should have been shown toward Martinez. As far as I'm concerned, he should have been put out of his misery much sooner than he was. Is it a slight against Cahill's character, or ability, to disagree and say he's defo chatting out of his arse on that one then?

The fans also have lost any faith in this group, and even more so in the manager. Sadly the atmosphere at Goodison reflects this mood. It has become a bit like going to the theatre instead of a football game. The big difference is the actors or singers onstage are committed to give you a good experience, something that some of our players are not committed too.

I think the reason if rumours are correct in season ticket sales being on a high, has absolutely nothing to do with the dire football we pay to watch. More to do with the loyalty of our fans, and I also think people want to retain there season ticket for when we eventually move to our new ground.

I don't want Allardyce, but Everton, have definitely improved defensively since he came on board, and if living in the past with a manager like Moyes, is the way to look at things, then it just shows you how far the once mighty Everton have fallen.

Moves had some decent finishes, he made a couple of good teams, with some very good players, but he never won nowt, not even a victory at Anfield, which is not surprising really when I remember some of the shithouse tactics he also employed over the years.

I remember Carsley, partnering Yobo, in the center of the park at Anfield one year, and then remember why we lost to ten men?

Neil, if you read the whole posts, I'm sure it will make more sense, but as I said I was just giving an opinion, because neither Moyes, Allardyce or Martinez, are good enough for Everton really.. well not the Everton I remember anyway, simply because 5/6 and 7th will never be good enough for me.

'Everton the complete !!$ collection!" featuring all of the highlights of the Allardyce years, watch as England's greatest ever goalscorer Wayne Rooney gasps for air as he tries to rescue another misplaced pass. Be amazed at the prancing skills of Yannick Bolasie, the coolest dude in a blue shirt as he loses possession on the touchline for a record number of times.

Stare in wonder at the navigational skills of the French magician as he manages to avoid the ball for 99% of the game and when he does get his foot on it, he aimlessly passes it in whatever direction he is facing. All of this and much, much more available at all good retail outlets.

Jay Wood has pointed one way forward and yet there are still arguments over how good a player TC was. we need to get out of the past and start seeing the future, stop arguing with each other and find some uniform agreement on the way forward.

I would start by saying I think we are (mostly) all agree on Allardyce going.

Elstone is going anyway.

I believe a large majority would want Walsh and Kenwright gone too.

We have serious question marks over the quality and application of the squad.

I am with Jay on Cortese although I would argue that Les Reed also contributed to that period of success at the Saints. I would also put forward David Dein as a candidate.

I would prefer Monchi or Wenger as DOF rather than Brands.

I would let the new CEO and DOF search for a new manager and personally would be looking at Emery as the level of manager we should go for.

I cant see Kenwright going until he is carried out in a box so the new management will have to be strong enough to manage him.

According to the Echo over the weekend, 29,300 fans renewed their season tickets prior to the deadline.

I think you take Tim Cahill's original comments out of context by claiming it is some sort of 'lament' and 'parochial' exaggeration of Paradise Lost since Moyes's departure.

You apparently agree when he says: “They have lost their identity as a club, there is nothing they are really building around."

You seemingly exclude his very next words:

"Before there was a basis and a group of players that was built and we were adding to it and looking for the long-term plan of how to evolve as a football club."

That doesn't read to me that he is trying to paint an exaggerated rosy image of what or where the club was in his time. Rather, it very accurately reflects that, for the most part, there was a year-on-year improvement in Moyes's and Tim's time at the club on the quality (plus mentality and application..?) of the players recruited. A vision, an objective, a PLAN as to what we were trying to achieve on limited resources. Martinez actually continued that in his first season.

Again, Cahill nails it as to what has happened since Moshiri has come on board.

"Now it seems like they are just making signings and the chemistry is not there and on the pitch they are not linking well."

As paupers, Moyes was meticulous in his scouting and recruitment, not least of all in the personality and character of a player and how he would fit into the existing squad.

It appears such tight scrutiny no longer applies to today's player recruitment, much to our detriment.

Your post, IMO, completely and inaccurately distorts what Tim Cahill actually said.

He did the same with Australia and is still capable of a few goals when given time on the pitch but it is not only his goals but his will to win that stands out.

I would welcome him at our club in exchange for a load of the deadwood we currently have, just to see if he can give the playing staff a boost.

Legends for me are a special group of players who pushed the team to success through skill, intelligence and determination.

Timmy may not be in that elite group but he is in good company with the likes of Andy King, Bob Latchford, Martin Dobson, Dave Thomas and a good few others.

Just like with those names above who did not have the manager to gel them into winners, we have had some very good players over the past few years but the managers have let them down. Moyes being being one of them.

The other one was Arteta,who I'm sure wouldn't have signed for Everton,if either Scott Parker or Emre hadn't signed for the maggots. That's not being critical because they were both good players, and Kenwright rarely gave Moyes enough money.

Moyes also knew he was losing Lescott and I just wish he'd been a lot more meticulous with that money because he had a team that wasn't that far off at the time.

Distin was as good as Lescott; Heitinga wasn't bad but Bilyletyadown, dvice

Just look at pictures of Kompany, Stones and Walker celebrating IN THE PUB with their fans last night.

Kompany even mentioned the pain of being a sky blue over the past 40 years. We need that in our club but who would be our champion? There has to be a manager who has the drive and understanding, firstly to be top dog on Merseyside, then in England.

I hope this link works, otherwise it is on BT Sport homepage:

Man City stars celebrate title win with fans

To achieve higher ambitions, Everton must have better players. Players who are comfortable on the ball and can pass accurately. These two attributes are sadly missing in the squad. That's is why attacks break down and why the opposition are able to launch their attacks. Whoever is deciding on transfers sadly does not take passing seriously as a priority.

It's got way worse since Mr Moshiiri arrived, though, and whoever's responsible, other than Koeman, should be got rid of at the same time as Kenwright and his many acolytes.

I wonder: Why now? Sorry, even though he gets the club, his decision to speak now coincides with the most public display of anti-Samism at Swansea.

Just a clever lad garnering more love from us success-starved Evertonians who will look twice at any ex-Evertonian spouting misty-eyed tales from years ago. That's us in a nutshell, hankering for the past. Knock it off, nostalgia has almost killed this club stone dead.

The comments do nothing but get people nodding in sage agreement and clicking on vids of yesteryear.

Would I employ the lad as a comms officer at Everton? A strong maybe.

When you go out and spend £15M on a player (Fellaini) who was pretty much unknown to many, as well as large amounts on Johnson and Yakubu, the 'plucky' tag started to wear thin. That spending, plus the downplaying of expectations, meant we didn't really have an identity anymore.

When Martinez came in, he wanted to create an identity, the Barcelona of the Premier League. Unfortunately he didn't have the players, or the defensive mindset to put it into practice. By the end of his reign we were a complete mess. Koeman steadied the defensive aspect for a while, but seemed to disillusion all the players through him being a useless man-manager.

Allardyce created a similar mindset with Bolton to what Moyes did, but there would be no way of replicating this with the highly paid bunch of players we have right now. The utter dross he's served up goes to show that he's here for one thing: keeping us up and that's it.

The next appointment has to be someone who the players can buy into and has the ambition to take this club forward. We've been rudderless for years and will continue to be until we get it right.

Cortese obviously did great work at Southampton, so there's got to be a reason that no other club has offered him a similar position in the four and a half years since he left Saints. I think it's because he has a big ego and a big mouth, and that's why I can't see Moshiri hiring him. We've had enough of those, thank you.

Whether the club manages to get back on its feet I don't know. I think it hinges on the stadium and think Moshiri knows that is the only chance to make us attractive as a club.

But on a bad day, I can easily picture 15,000 at Goodison still singing about a history nobody else gives a shit about or can even remember.

And you reckon our children and grandchildren will take the baton from us?

Obviously some of the memories are rose-tinted now -- I chuckled at one reference above to his technical skill, which is something I never saw -- but while he'd never make anybody's Greatest Everton 11, he'll always be in my Favorite 11.

And yes, when the subject is passion, I'm one who cares what Tim Cahill thinks.

He may not have won us trophies but he made the group that was there much better. If we had a couple of world class players while Tim was there it would have been a different story. Boys Pen Bill's regime was skint and we fought with what we had.

I think he was better than beautifully above average in his prime . He was no David Silva but was resplendently above average.

An eagerness to opine doesn't make that which is crystal clear opaque.

It's quite obvious which of Cahill's words I took issue with. As I stated, they are those he opted to close with:

"...under David Moyes maybe they thought it was getting stale, but now you can appreciate what they have lost"

I didn't simply "exclude" Cahill's description of 'how things were before', rather I chose to dismiss it as soon as I got to the part about the continual striving toward a long-term plan to take the football club forward.

It's like Bones banging on about how the crew of the Enterprise could never be swayed from completing 'the search for Spock', when fucking Kirk was there on deck giving it "let's just look to get to the 40th planet of the Federation and then see if we've got enough fuel to kick on", in between openly campaigning on Galactic TV to be given the chance to take command of a rival ship and turn it from 'USS Spurs' to 'U&ME Spurs', then saying he absolutely, positively, would not put laser pen to holographic paper unless he was given a bigger crew for the good of the mission, before suddenly shutting the fuck up about pressing staffing problems as soon as his boss promised to pay him a salary so huge his pants would be doing a passable impression of Scottie screaming "ah(rse pocket) cannae take much moar ay this, Captain!".

Captain Kirk: He had "a vision, an objective, a PLAN" (but an unfortunate habit of crapping himself whenever a Klingon crossed his path).

Even though Jagielka was part of those squads and has been captain for a long time, he has always been criticized for his lack of leadership. The only real leaders we have now are Rooney and Coleman. How many times have they actually captained the side? Baines has worn the armband a number of times, but he doesn't really strike you as a strong personality within the squad.

A captain should play the role of the manager on the field,though without someone with leadership skills, no wonder we are rudderless.

"Cortese...is not a football man, he's an investment banker with some football knowledge. We've got that already -- Moshiri is an investor with some football knowledge.

"Cortese obviously did great work at Southampton, so there's got to be a reason that no other club has offered him a similar position in the four and a half years since he left Saints."

Do your research Mike and educate yourself on the wrong assumptions you make. You might then reconsider those bold speculative statements.

Coleman has the fire and leads by example, and I fully expect him to wear the armband next season.

But I asked who do we want to be and there have been some good replies as well as those who just see it as a pointless exercise because the club won't listen. Somewhere along the line, things have to change, so I would rather try to influence change than be told this is what you will get.

To do that, we have to challenge our own apathy and someone, somewhere in the club might just think we are on to something... we need our pride back; this is not The People's Club, nor someone's train set – this is our club and we have to step up to the mark and realise that it's the supporters who make a club too.

So here is my opener for 10:

Who are we?

We are one of the founding members of the world's finest leagues with a tradition of producing great players and great teams. Once touched by Everton, you are never the same.

We are proud of our School of Science – a belief of playing winning football with passion, flair, fairness skill and honouring wearing the Royal Blue of Everton.

We believe our players should reflect in their play, attitude and adopt our values as a club, take pride in themselves and be aware that, forever more, they will be Everton.

We will expect in a player, manager, and all appointed to this club, passion in being exceptional, pride in who they are, and measure their own performance in delivering the best and nothing but the best.

They will make a contribution in the School of Science, Fortress Everton or in the daily lives of supporters everywhere.

We will aim to excel on the pitch, playing football of quality, fast and flowing; our defence will be our name, our image will be of The Fortress, because no one will ever tear us down.

Our ground will intimidate and our Fortress impregnable. Every jersey will bear our crest with pride and passion of what it means to be Everton, worn with honour.

We acknowledge and appreciate teams and players of quality, hold them in high standing with fairness and due deference, but we will be the club others will aspire to, that fans point to,that players want to be part of, that sets an ongoing standard of sheer passion in all we do,

We define all of the above as the love of our club, our pride in that love and shun those players, managers, or supporters who cannot, do not, or will not accept these conditions of being Everton.

We will play to win but not at any cost; we will play football with finesse and skill pride and passion and seek our players, managers and staff with such credentials and accept nothing less.

Success will not only be judged by silverware alone but by our ethos, by the way we approach football, by the way we are passionate in our performance, by the camaraderie of family and the way the rest of the football world looks at our club.

In this money led industry we acknowledge that it is money that buys talent, but it will never buy love, passion and desire. If we never have enough money to meet our aims, we must ensure we have the other three in abundance.

As fans, we must support our club at all times through hell and high water, and never lose our faith or belief in the values our club lives by.

It is my Everton too.

Link

My posts at 25, 25 and 62 not only give a thorough potted history of Cortese's time at Southampton, they also contain links with even more details of the events to which I refer.

As for your charges about 'why he hasn't be employed in football for 4 1/2 years?', it's simple: he had a young family, is Italian and chose to return to Italy to raise them in their own culture during their important formative years.

As for your belief that "he has a big ego and a big mouth", as the links reference, he was universally respected at Southampton, not least for his personal touch of knowing the first names of all staff members and more, those of their spouses and children.

A bit more humble and empathetic than you wish to paint him, based on what, I've no idea.

Obviously hiring Poch was his genius move, and he invested well in Southampton's academy, but I don't remember anything else particularly dazzling that would make me consider him a crackerjack football man. And it's a matter of record that he mouthed off in all directions and pissed off his owner so badly that his position became untenable.

My only "bold speculative statement" was raising the possibility that his predilection for bending noses has been the reason for his lack of subsequent employment in football, which considering he's been at liberty since 2014 is not an unreasonable guess IMO. If you have better information that proves me wrong, I'm all ears. (Or eyes in this case.) I'd certainly be interested to know why you feel so strongly in his favor.

The one thing that will unite us all is surely a team that wins more than it loses and has us going to the game (or our laptops!) with anticipation and expectancy?

Surely we're entitled to expect at least that?

But hey ho, we'll all place him in a different part of the scale between Messi and Niasse. It is the posts from (initially) Kev Tully and lastly Grant Rorrison I truly can't get my head around. Such lofty expectations.

But in any case ignore me, the debate on Cortese is more interesting.

I won't prolong this but, if you really believe that Allardyce improved us defensively, then I don't think there is any point as we will never agree.

Yes, I want the Everton of the 60s and 80s but what we need leadership at board, managerial and some really good scouting talent to bring us some hope that we can get some of our pride back. At the moment, we are just a mismanaged shambles.

What this thread seems to demonstrate is people's ability to polarise everything. If you agree with (any of) Cahill's comments, you're living in the past with Blue-tinted glasses and think Moyes was a brilliant manager. If you disagree with (any of) Cahill's comments, you think he was an overrated footballer whose opinions don't matter any more.

For those asking why he's chosen now to make these comments, he was on a football show on TV the day after a match that saw Everton do pretty much nothing (include not score their goal) against a team that has been pretty much cannon fodder all season, and, coincidentally, against a team who sold them their best player at the start of the season.

The same comments and thoughts from others are making the rounds on football media, and Tim Cahill happened to be scheduled on the show that day. What would you want him to say? Take a page out of Jagielka's or Baines's book with a "Everton need to get back to the training ground and concentrate on the next match and start doing things better" soundbite? We've heard that so many times, the words – and the people delivering them – have lost all meaning.

IMO heading, volleying and overhead kicks are more exercises of athleticism and timing; obviously Tim had those qualities in spectacular proportions.

I had read the thread you linked and your previous posts on Cortese. Agree that he was universally respected among the players and staff... but among the other club officials, not so much. And the fact that years later he is still telling interviewers about his accomplishments there speaks to me of a love for the limelight.

Regarding this: "...he had a young family, is Italian and chose to return to Italy to raise them in their own culture during their important formative years."... are you sure about that? According to the biographical references I have found, he remained in Hampshire after departing Southampton. I find no mention anywhere of him returning to Italy to raise his kids. If you have superior information, please share.

And he did so on a point of principal when the Club's owner, Katharina Liebherr, wished to curtail the executive powers Cortese had so successfully wielded. Indeed, she herself expressed regret that he had resigned, adding that Cortese had done a "wonderful job" in his tenure as chairman, and "we wanted him to stay".

Care to share with us any links supporting your claims that "it's a matter of record that he mouthed off in all directions and pissed off his owner so badly that his position became untenable..?"

Or links supporting your self-admitted speculative statement "that his predilection for bending noses has been the reason for his lack of subsequent employment in football..?"

As for denouncing him because he 'isn't a football man', what does that even mean? Look at some of the owners, CEOs, chairman, or anyone at a high profile football club – some of who have been hugely successful in their role at their clubs – who are not 'football men.' Indeed, most I would suggest have none, little or less knowledge about the game than the average football fan.

It's a nonsense charge to make about Cortese as his personal key skills are far more important than the need to be first and foremost a 'football man'.

Listen again to the TalkSport interview you yourself referenced.

Moshiri's best mate opens the interview with an intro saying his guest – Cortese – is very bashful talking about his achievements at Southampton. Cortese himself speaks of his own self-doubt, that he could run a football club. He also mentions his young family and wife in Switzerland (my bad! it was Switzerland where they were based AND returned to after leaving Saints).

Plus, that interview was way back in September 2017. What evidence, other than that single interview, do you have to support yet more highly inflated self-speculation from you that "...the fact that years later he is still telling interviewers about his accomplishments there speaks to me of a love for the limelight?" He simply answered questions put to him, modestly and factually, about the events under his stewardship that totally turned Southampton around.

And in answer to your final question you posed in post 134, "I'd certainly be interested to know why you feel so strongly in his favor," you have the answer in the thread and posts I referenced earlier.

You are saying nothing – nothing at all – to counter or change my mind on why I 'feel so strongly in his favour'.

I didn't "denounce" anybody.

Poch wasn't "little known" except perhaps to Southampton fans... nobody who manages four years in La Liga is obscure. That's a crib from one of the articles you linked.

I think you'll find that the "non-footy" execs who have been successful in the EPL have all been ably supported by top football men. (And, dear God, do we need one!)

You asked for a link to support my impression that Cortese spouted his mouth a lot... here's just one of several I found. Martin Samuel's view: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2541553/Cortese-thought-star-Southampton-just-rich-familys-banker-Martin-Samuel.html

A few excerpts:

Nicola Cortese found that out this week when a very rich woman decided she could spend her fortune, or not, without his assistance. He really should have known. One of his final statements as Southampton's executive chairman spoke of his manager Mauricio Pochettino in the coldest terms.

‘The manager is basically a department head like the others,' he told a Leaders in Football conference. With a stunning lack of self-awareness, he forgot that this was all he was, too. He might have been the head of the department heads but he was an employee just the same. It wasn't his money, he merely acted as if it was."

"After Liebherr's death, his shattered family pledged to continue supporting Southampton to honour their father's vision and, as this was to make the club a presence in the Champions League, that meant honouring Cortese's vision, too. He proved an excellent administrator and Southampton returned to the Premier League through two divisions.

Alan Pardew did his bit, and more significantly Nigel Adkins, who won both promotions. Yet Cortese's managers never seemed to get much of a mention when he did his interviews. He was part of a new breed: the manager-chairman. He spoke as if Southampton was a one-man show — and he was the star And what seemed to be forgotten in all this was that the bill for Cortese's grand plan — impressive though it was — always landed at the door of Liebherr's daughter, Katharina. Without her, Cortese might as well have been playing a computer game."

Finally, of course Liebherr "expressed regret" at Cortese's departure. That's what a farewell press release is supposed to say. I've written more than a few of those myself. What would you expect, an exultant "Arrivederci, paisan!"???

So, Jay, now you see what my viewpoint is based on... and it's not as off-the-wall as you imply. You and I may disagree, but my opinion is just as well-researched as yours. And it's certainly not "nonsense".

But whoever is right, I suspect it's a purely academic debate, because I don't believe there's any chance of Moshiri hiring Cortese.

Your opening lines to me in your first post @ 119 in our wee tete-a-tete were: "He's not a football man, he's an investment banker with some football knowledge. We've got that already -- Moshiri is an investor with some football knowledge."

This reads to me as an immediate attempt to denounce, deride, damn him with faint praise - you choose! - on basically a non-issue.

So, based on the respective performances of the two men you reference in those opening remarks, who would you prefer sat in the seat at Goodison Park, making the day-to-day and long-term executive and planning decisions - Cortese, or Moshiri..?

How many super-execs, be it at individual sports clubs or in THE seat of power at the head of a league organizing body, are '[insert appropriate sport here] men'?

Rather than undermine their ability to fulfill their appointed role, NOT being '[insert appropriate sport here] men' may benefit, rather than hinder, their decision making and action taking as they are not encumbered by traditional '[insert appropriate sport here] men' ideas and practices.

As for the Martin Samuel piece, I referenced it myself in my own links so I've already read it - in FULL! I enjoyed your selective cherry-picking of the article as an attempt to bolster your point of view.

Tellingly, you fail to include the fact that - yes! - of course it was Liebherr's money that financed the club and Cortese was merely a hired gun. But even before Liebherr died within a couple of months of the buy-out, he had already appointed and anointed Cortese to have the full executive powers that he wielded so successfully.

The daughter who inherited the club was more than happy to leave Cortese to it, also.

This is very clear in Samuel's closing words in his article:

"Money restored the natural order [at Southampton], Liebherr money, and Cortese spent it well, as the best bankers do. That's why billionaires use them."

To repeat: "That's why billionaires use them."

It neatly highlights why I am lobbying for Cortese. Moshiri has already demonstrated he has neither the time, the inclination, nor the ability to run Everton Football Club on a day-to-day basis, with clear long-term objectives in place.

Nicola Cortese most certainly has and done so extremely efficiently and successfully.

So Mike, allow me to close by paraphrasing and inverting the question you put to me in post 134:

"I'd certainly be interested to know why you feel so strongly opposed [to Cortese being appointed at Everton]."

Because what you've offered thus far Mike is no case at all. None.

We have that in common, Jay, because we've both based our "cases" on newspaper articles quoting other people and zero firsthand knowledge. We're expressing opinions, not making legal arguments.

"I'd certainly be interested to know why you feel so strongly opposed [to Cortese being appointed at Everton]."

Because I don't think he's the football man we need or the employee Moshiri would want. And I'm not strongly opposed, I just think we can do a lot better, whereas you seem to believe he'd get to work at Bramley-Moore by walking across the Mersey. But as I said, I doubt we'd hire him.

I assume you have more dismissive remarks to make about my views and the way I express them, but I believe this debate has run its course. So ciao. Or as they say in your neighborhood, até mais.

"...we've both based our "cases" on newspaper articles quoting other people and zero firsthand knowledge. We're expressing opinions, not making legal arguments."

Yessss...and...?

Where we clearly differ is how each of us has presented the information freely available in the public domain and how each of us is interpreting it.

I have referenced with links multiple quoted sources of just how well-liked Cortese was at Southampton and just how thorough he was on seemingly trivial detail which, when accumulated with other things he implemented, incrementally but considerably rapidly improved things at Southampton.

You, sorry to say Mike, have offered little or no counter to all these beneficial changes Cortese instigated. Rather, you've speculated a great deal on his qualities (or rather, the lack of them...) with little or no supporting proof.

You 'think' it's "because he has a big ego and a big mouth" and "his predilection for bending noses has been the reason for his lack of subsequent employment in football." At least you were honest enough to admit this is pure speculation on your part.

You imply Cortese MUST be flawed because "there's got to be a reason that no other club has offered him a similar position in the four and a half years since he left Saints." More speculation.

You claim on the one hand you did do your research on Cortese, but then add "I don't remember anything else particularly dazzling that would make me consider him a crackerjack football man."

As I've already countered, the phrase 'football man' is irrelevant, not a pre-requisite for anyone assuming the role Cortese filled at Southampton. What is indisputable (although you are trying to deny it) is that there is plenty - an ABUNDANCE of evidence in the links I provided - which clearly demonstrate the many good things Cortese did to improve Southampton Football Club, 'football man' or not.

Too bad if you don't like the word Mike, but the multiple examples I offer do make a nonsense of many, if not all, your claims and largely speculative view of Cortese.

And if you consider my responses to you as 'dismissive', there is a reason for that Mike: you haven't presented any sort of convincing fact-based counter worthy of serious consideration to cause me pause for thought. Not one.

Ciao for now!

A primary and ongoing problem for us is: We are slow. To challenge for anything, we need to be lightning fast like Man City and Liverpool.

Rooney, Schneider, Gana, the all have certain qualities but speed, alertness and lightning transition from defence to attack just won't happen. Slow, ponderous and sideways is served up time and again.

We need to play with just one defensive midfielder and go for the throat and try and win games with pace and quality in attack.

Oh to have had the money we have wasted in the past 12 months then.

COYB – let's keep the faith and stick together!

Both would have won trophies like Arteta at those clubs. Is Coleman going to get the same treatment for being a loser?

Yes, if he turns down greater challenges. Do you not understand that part of our problem is keeping players that are totally content to go their entire careers without a single trophy while selling players motivated to compete at the highest levels and win trophies?

By the way, I absolutely accept that both could have done better than us. It also annoys me that others, not fit to lace their boots, have become "legends".

Just look at recruitment. We had the chance to sign Robertson, Van Dijk, Bertrand, Clyne, Butland, and Maguire for absolute peanuts. We did nothing, watching an ageing squad or signed crap like Stekelenburg, Martina, Funes Mori.

Sign the former and perhaps Lukaku and Stones stick around with a club competing for honours. A bit more star dust and you're up there with Spurs etc.

You think Van Dijk would have given us some sort of Everton discount instead of grabbing the 㿷M and playing in the Champions League?

Why would we want Clyne when we have Coleman?

WTF do we want Bertrand for?

You'd rather have Butland than Pickford? Seriously?

You've got a case on Maguire, who is better than Keane and cost less, and also on Robertson. But, sorry, the rest is bunkum.

I'm not sure where all that is coming from, but why would we not want a young Bertrand while Baines has been declining and often injured? Did you enjoy watching Martina all this season?

Butland, compared to the £30 million we spent for Pickford would not be a bad choice. Van Dijk was heavily linked before he went to Southampton. Clyne is sadly a damn good player, why would we not have liked to have him?

We had the chance on Butland for ١m from Birmingham. We had no money or decided we wouldn't spend it on a highly promising England U21 goalkeeper, and he went to Stoke. A repeat of Joe Hart, left Shrewsbury for 𧺬k, and we passed that up to.

Van Dijk was linked with us for 㾸m to partner Stones. We decided to buy Funes Mori for ٣m, which suddenly became 㾶m late in the deal. Either naive or something stunk on that deal. How many South American central defenders have made it in England?

Clyne left Crystal Palace to Southampton for next to nothing despite being a regular for England Under-21s. With Hibbert being 104 at the time, he'd have been another cheap signing.

We were long linked with Robertson when he was at Dundee United. We've had no cover for Baines for years, but some bright spark thought Garbutt was a better option and he left for Hull in a ٠m deal.

Maguire out of Sheffield United was another mistake. He done well for them, and left for Hull for ٣m. He had another good season leaving for Leicester for 㾽m, when we paid 㿅-30m for Keane. Again, we knew we had a central defensive issue with Jagielka getting older.

All hindsight I know, but each window throws up two or three good English prospects to take a club forward.

I couldn't get on me keyboard quick enough to "put him right" ... "Boltonesque" ? WTF ?

I sat there for ages trying to find the words, but they didn't come, it suddenly occurred to me that he was bang on the fucking money.

Evertonians were once regarded as one of the most knowledgeable group of fans, but is that the case now, or are we simply getting what we deserve ?

When I think of the things I have heard in the alehouse and read on these pages, I wonder what happened to our fan base. I would despair when people would applaud Roberto because he "had a dream" and excuse his possession obsession. I was shouted down regularly for "not giving him time". Those who did the shouting down were amongst the most vociferous in calling for his head a short while later.

The same thing happened with Koeman. The guy brought Zombie football to this parish from day one and rather that condemn it, He was cheered the rafters for finishing 7th "Give him time. He was a world class player and will bring top players and glory back to this club" .

Yeah, of course he would. Straight talking Ronnie was full of shit. The "positive" happy clapping faded to a silence as once again reality dawned. It was as if some fans think we need to suffer for a certain amount of time before they could admit to what had long since been the blindingly obvious.

The trend continued. Calls for Sam Allardyce made me feel that our own supporters were calling for the sale of the clubs soul. We knew what we would get, but an illogical panic had descended and "fireman Sam was are only hope of salvation"... in a season where eight clubs were seemingly hell bent on being relegated and 34 points could ensure survival we needed this football criminal??? Really???

Once again the people who condemned his football were dismissed as negative, divisive and poisonous for not happy clapping the removal of the clubs soul. You don't even need to leave these pages to see that. One expert triumphantly claimed "Sam's got this"... oblivious to the fact that the Black Country buffoon was slowly removing his kecks.

The happy clapping is not simply confined to the managers. The great rejoicing as we spent fortunes on poor players made me feel the average Evertonian had lost the right to call himself knowledgeable. I clearly remember getting slaughtered and being told something like Tinkerbelle had died because "one little boy" (me) was not clapping happily enough in an article I wrote questioning our summer window's purchases.

Schneiderlin was a Rolls Royce of a player, Gana was top four Material, Rooney a brilliant signing and would find his legs again (eh ?), The Spanish Andy Johnson would solve our striker problems, Klaassen was a wonderful signing who would bring flair and gloss. The Egremont from Burnley the greatest signing since Dave Watson...

There are too many Evertonians these days who wouldn't recognise a footballer if he crashed his Aston Martin through to his living room with his Gucci shirt peppered with the Charlie he was trying to hoover up as he drove down their street.

Too many Evertonians who insist a manager should be given more time, because they are unable to see he is a bad fit, too many who will support, apologise and applaud him until the agony becomes unbearable.

We permanently embrace what the fans of top clubs would reject out of hand... and we wonder why we are not one of them

I could go on, but I don't want to, I find it incredibly hard to swallow the hypocrisy of people who applauded these things at the time and are now pointing fingers at a wet-behind-the-ears owner and a gobshite "talent finder" who they treated like a knight in shining when he arrived from Leicester.

Identity? Of course we have an identity. We are the greyest club in the fucking league and a large (too large) percentage of our fan base has applauded while we worked tirelessly to attain it.

It's not the poor players or the Moronic managers who have all but destroyed this club, it's the judgement of the happy clappers who have encouraged, applauded and rejoiced as Starship Everton set off in search of planet mediocrity.

These jokers who run the club actually think they are doing a good job – why wouldn't they when so many people are queuing up to tell them they are?

This isn't murder, it's Hari Kari.

"Linked" means speculation and rumour. I don't recall any definitive statements of interest by Moyes or Kenwright on any of these players you mention from 6 or 8 years ago. Obviously there were lots of rumours about Van Dijk, but nothing ever confirmed.

I repeat my question on Clyne. At the time he left Palace in 2012 we already knew we had a dazzling young 60K Coleman coming up to replace Hibbo. Who in their right mind would have suggested Everton buy Clyne at that point?

What do you mean we had no cover for Baines? You must be joking. Oviedo was outstanding the year Robertson left Dundee, and we also had a teenaged Galloway looking like a young star in the making.

Sure, we made a big mistake in choosing Keane over Maguire (I strongly preferred Steve Cook to either) and in signing Funes Mori... not because he's South American but just because he's not that good. But we've also made some absolute steals (Coleman, Jags, Gana and Baines from the current squad and many more from the recent past I'm sure you could name), and I just think the whole hindsight thing is pointless. Making some of the deals you're mourning today would have required nothing less than precognition at the time.

We used to be good at signing players, but this has gone downhill in recent times from a lack of money or poor decision making. We used to sign players on the up, with hunger and determination to succeed.

The batch of signings like Arteta, Pienaar, Coleman, Lescott, Jagielka, Cahill, Baines and Stones was a real sweet spot in our talent search. All with something to prove – how much can we say that from our current squad?