New ground will breathe life into Everton and the city

Thursday, 11 October, 2018 195comments  |  Jump to last

Everton's Director of Finance says that the club will use the experiences of rival clubs as learning opportunities as they look to advance the development of a new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

Speaking at the Leaders Sports Business Summit at Chelsea's Stamford Bridge today, Sasha Ryazantsev said that while the decision to leave the Blues' current home at Goodison Park was a hard one, avoiding from some of the mistakes made during the planning and construction of other stadiums will make the transition to the banks of the Mersey that much smoother.

Ryazantsev, who joined the club with Everton owner Farhad Moshiri in 2016 as his presence in the Boardroom and has since been installed in his current role, didn't mention any specific examples in the quotes attributed to him but the delays and cost over-runs of Tottenham's new stadium serve as the most obvious instance.

West Ham's move to the London Stadium, meanwhile, has been fraught with complaints over policing and a lack of atmosphere in the wide expanses of a former athletics venue.

He says that if Everton can get their move right, it could be the catalyst to propelling the club back into the elite of the English game while also providing enormous financial benefits to the city of Liverpool.

“There's been quite a few stadium moves and some of them arguably made some mistakes and I hope we can learn from those mistakes,” Ryazantsev said.

“Sometimes it's good to be a trailblazer but when you're not first, you can learn from others' mistakes. It is a very long-term project and it will take several years before we move.

“We see it as an opportunity to close the gap on the top six and the stadium itself will create a huge amount of new life.

“It will breathe new life into the team, create new jobs in the area and be worth one billion pounds of economic value to the city.”

The proposed new ground at Bramley-Moore Dock still has a target completion date of 2022 but the financing of the project has yet to be finalised, leaving the planning application, final capacity and design up in the air.  


Reader Comments (195)

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Danny Broderick
1 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:05:48
Sound bites. We’ve heard it all before. Get on with building it!
Alan J Thompson
2 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:09:55
I notice he didn't mention "ring-fencing".
Eddie Dunn
3 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:16:32
It is therefore still some way off. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes 5 years from now, but then I wouldn't be surprised if it never happened.
Steve Ferns
4 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:19:00
I read several years to complete was at least five or he would have said a few. That’s 2023 at least. So I’m reading delays. I hope I’m wrong.
Paul Birmingham
5 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:32:25
When you go by this site – and the last few weeks, I've been working close by and taking stock of the scale of the site daily – the engineering required to get the ground prepared is immense.

If it happens, and is completed to final design specification, I believe it would be a massive psychological boost for Evertonians.

There lies the challenge for the club, and I'm as cynical as the rest until the work starts, as there have been many false dawns in the past.

I hope this does happen, as if the club doesn't move, then Everton will get left behind and it would be nigh on impossible to get close to the so-called Sky 6 again.

Onwards with hope and belief in Everton board and Bramley-Moore Dock project team.

Martin Nicholls
6 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:53:57
In my view, we must close the gap on the Sky Six sooner rather than later – if we fail to do so, or even begin to do so for "several years" (I agree with Steve that this expression, assuming it was carefully chosen, probably means around five years) then I fear it will be too late.

As an aside, I can't see that the WHU move is relevant to this debate as theirs is not a purpose-built football stadium.

Despite my reservations, I remain cautiously optimistic!

Dermot Byrne
7 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:57:35
Tottenham: site first discussed in 2008. The club also did not fully commit itself to building the stadium in Tottenham until January 2012; still being built.

Arsenal: In November 1999, Arsenal examined the feasibility of building a new stadium in Ashburton Grove. The club bought an industrial and waste disposal estate in Ashburton Grove in 2000; opened 2006.

Liverpool: Plans to replace Anfield were originally initiated by Liverpool FC in May 2002. New stand opened 2016 (Built by Carillion; Closes 2020!)

Man City: moved into stadium owned by Council and with £22m from Council.

West Ham: nuff said.

Just seems these things take a while. We all have memories of Kings Dock and Kirkby but, with the new owner, I get the feeling we can take this plan seriously and maybe we just have to realise this project is not developing much quicker or slower than others.

Personally I am checking the deep freezing option so I can come back and sit there when we win the Premier League.


Rob B Williams
8 Posted 11/10/2018 at 08:57:49
Sand's on site, now for a couple of bags of cement and some building blocks and we're away. Oh yes, we may need a pump to get rid of that big puddle in the middle.
Bob Parrington
9 Posted 11/10/2018 at 09:37:54
Interesting ref to West Ham's experience. I believe many of us Evertonians in the past have rated West Ham as a relatively close similarity to our "peoples' club" perspective. If they are finding a "lack of atmosphere" in their new home then this is something we should definitely learn from.

My own believe is that "atmosphere" is up-front in the thoughts of the design team. I hope I am right in this.

As far as Spurs experience is concerned – surely, this is a lot to do with due diligence, which starts with the precision of the contract. We should have the right people at the top of Everton, plus Usmanov? Shouldn't we??

Tony Abrahams
10 Posted 11/10/2018 at 09:38:34
We are talking about the biggest redevelopment of our city, in most people's lifetime.

Look what Liverpool One has done for the city centre, and then think about the scale of this major, major redevelopment, which is just waiting to be kick-started by Everton?

Of course we are sceptical, some more than others, but I think Sasha has got the sums wrong, and once it begins it will transform Liverpool back to its finest days, and a lot more than a billion pounds will go into something that both Evertonians and the city of Liverpool, have been waiting a long time for.

Sam Hoare
11 Posted 11/10/2018 at 09:57:28
I know very little about such things but doesn't 2022 already seem pretty unrealistic for the amount of progress that has been made?

I'm not massively bothered if it's 4 years or 5 or even 6. As long as we can see things moving forwards then I think that the psychological boost will begin to have effect. Better to do it right than to do it fast!

Joe O'Brien
12 Posted 11/10/2018 at 10:08:51
I agree with Sam. Might as well do it right than fast and shoddy. I think we'll be in at the start of the 2022-23 season. Once the plans get finalised, it'll kick on fast enough. I'm expecting plans before Christmas. There seems to be more chatter coming out of the club more frequent lately.

We've waited so long, I'm patient enough to wait a small bit longer.. to get it done properly. We'll be in envy of the Premier League.

Brian Foley
13 Posted 11/10/2018 at 10:16:49
Bob Parrington @9 is talking total sense. Why don't we just leave them to get on with it, like Ryazantsev says, and learn from other clubs' mistakes. We can still compete if the players pull their fingers out on a regular basis. After all, three points at the King Power is better than nil points at Goodison Park (WHU). It's how we play — not where, god.
Rick Tarleton
14 Posted 11/10/2018 at 10:39:54
I'm 72, I hope I get the opportunity to attend a game at this new ground. I've got my doubts.
Brian Harrison
15 Posted 11/10/2018 at 10:40:03
I can't understand why the delay, we have a billionaire accountant as our major shareholder, and the Council prepared to loan the money needed to build the stadium. Only a couple of weeks back Usmanov said he would give Moshiri whatever help he needed. Yet here we are now being told it will be years before we move, and as we all know the longer we delay the more the cost of building the new stadium will rise.

So still no funding in place and still no planning permission to build on the site, yet we have been bombarded with sketches from Dan Meis the architect. Largely the debate has been amongst supporters about the capacity of the new ground with many favouring a stadium that will have a capacity for 60,000 fans.

As we have seen over the last decade, moving to a new stadium doesn't always turn out to be the panacea it was expected to be. But, that aside, for us to challenge for the top spots we have to create greater revenue streams than we currently get from Goodison Park, so, every year we delay, it's another year were we fall further and further behind the top 6.

Amit Vithlani
16 Posted 11/10/2018 at 10:53:26
What concerns me is:

“We see it as an opportunity to close the gap on the top six and the stadium itself will create a huge amount of new life."

So, we need the new stadium to close the gap on the top 6, and said stadium will take 5 years?

I hope I have read that wrong. In 5 years, ground or no new ground, I still have hope we will be a contender for a top 4 place.

Adding to the trophy cabinet by challenging and winning the domestic cup competitions during said 5-year period is also part of my hopes.

I would hate to think we move in 2023 with the last trophy being 28 years prior and us becoming known as the best of the rest outside the top 6.

Jim Bennings
17 Posted 11/10/2018 at 10:58:20
Just as long as the new place (if it ever happens) has individual stands and character like Goodison Park.

Don't get me wrong I know we can't remain at Goodison Park if we want to seriously challenge the top clubs – mind you, it didn't stop Arsenal developing The Invincibles in 2004 at Highbury with a capacity of 38,000.

I don't want to be like Sunderland or West Ham playing at a soulless bowl that creates no atmosphere.

The character of English football stadiums has been on the wane now for years, gone are famous old places like Highbury, White Hart Lane, Boleyn Ground and they have been replaced by carbon copy cut outs.

I'd like to see when the new Everton stadium is built some kind of “home end” behind the goal, something very similar to that beast that Borussia Dortmund have, the Yellow Wall.

Hopefully, if we do get a new stadium, this will be taken in for consideration and the rest of England can be look in envy at something unique in its design.

Stan Schofield
18 Posted 11/10/2018 at 10:59:57
There's a difference between a 'nice to have' and a 'must have'. A new stadium is a 'nice to have', whereas playing effectively on the pitch is a 'must have'.

The latter can be achieved without the former, and at the end of the day I won't lose any sleep if we don't get a new stadium, but I probably would lose some sleep if we continue to be mid-table, whether or not we play at a new stadium or Goodison Park.

Mark Taylor
19 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:12:48
Has a business case for the new stadium ever been published? Not just covering costs and financing but also expected revenue streams from both the Goodison Park re-development and the incremental ticket income.

I've tried googling this but found nothing. Without this, it is hard to determine viability.

Laurie Hartley
20 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:15:53
Tony #10 – keep the faith – I've seen this happen

Link

The stadium precinct in 2000 kick-started it and it is still going – it is expected to finish in 2025.

Melbourne is growing that fast it is going to outstrip Sydney in population shortly.

Sam Hoare
21 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:21:09
Jim @17, as far as I can see Dan Meis has done a really good job of acquainting himself with English football and in particular Everton football club and our history and identity. He has said many times on social media that atmosphere and connection with the fans will be of primary importance. I feel confident of the design in his hands.

I suspect the issue that will upset people will be the capacity. There've been many discussions on here about capacity equalling status but it sounds to me like we are being prepped for a capacity between 50-55k rather than the 60k that many want and see as indicative of a place at the top table.

Gary Edwards
22 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:32:19
"Learn from the experiences of other clubs" – fuck off, you're clueless and it started with the appointment of Dr Keith Harris to oversee the development of the new stadium.

As someone who knows how to successfully deliver mega construction projects (albeit in oil and gas), it angers me to see the club dither and frankly look very amateurish in their management (sic) of this project.

It pains me to say but I fear that the Bramley-Moore Dock Project will end no better than the King's Docks Stadium Project.

Tony Everan
23 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:34:00
It would be better to hear something concrete rather than never-ending PR.

I understand everything about the project is complex and the financing of it is central. But we have been hearing all the soundbites and rhetoric for god knows how long.

I'm wondering if there is a genuine will to make this happen, or if it is being purposefully delayed. Moshiri has to get the major parties round a table and make it happen.

Laurie Hartley
24 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:34:14
Mark #19 – the West Ham experience makes interesting reading.

West Ham Attendances 2017-18 season | Crowd figures & stats for WHUFC home games at London Stadium 17-18

Conservatively, if we can get another 12,500 fans per home game at say £40 per fan, that is £500,000 per game in increased revenue.

Steve Ferns
25 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:47:14
"One massive factor being overlooked is Brexit. Now that's a politically charged word."

Forget your view on Brexit, the facts are these are uncertain times. Until there is stability after the terms of Brexit are known and adapted to, then the uncertainty affects Everton in terms of our ability to get the finance we need. Financial institutions are very wary right now. Also, the price of steel is volatile and there's a number of other factors.

If you think of the ground as just a major construction project, as opposed to the emotions of being our new home, then it does make sense to wait until March to then sort out the finance when things are more settled.

Daniel A Johnson
26 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:50:15
Every part of my body just says this isn't going to happen.

Fair enough criticising other stadiums but hey they are built and actually exist. They're not just fanciful drawings or grand statements which is all this is.

I feel I could travel to star date 2210 and we would still be at Goodison Park.

Sorry for the negative vibes but Kings Dock crushed every hope I ever had for the future of this club. It also signalled the start of our decline. I'm just not getting my hopes up this time, it is Everton FC after all.

Jim Bennings
27 Posted 11/10/2018 at 11:54:20
Sam

I hope so!

I want us to get the new stadium but I want us to get it right also; clubs like West Ham and you could argue with the lack of major success at Arsenal, they have thus far got it wrong.

I don't think anything rivals Goodison Park under the floodlights for a night game against one of the “Sky Six” — just look at the atmosphere against Arsenal two years ago when we won 2-1 under Koeman.

The new place needs to have the capacity to generate such atmosphere also.

John Raftery
28 Posted 11/10/2018 at 12:05:44
Mark (19) No business case has been published. If it is to be published, I guess it will only be after the capacity has been determined.

A definition of ‘several' is more than two but fewer than many. I will be surprised if we are in the new stadium before 2023. Finance has always been the biggest hurdle and as Steve says the current economic uncertainty just adds another layer of risk to what was always going to be a high-risk project.

We are not alone. Bournemouth have recently postponed the building of a new stadium which was originally planned for 2020. They have not set a new date.

Liam Reilly
29 Posted 11/10/2018 at 12:24:26
Whilst Brexit should be a consideration, Steve, I suspect it's not the reason for the delay. The club can protect itself against market volatility by leveraging some financial instruments such as Futures and Options.

The delay is more likely down to investment and planning, I'd have thought.

Tony J Williams
30 Posted 11/10/2018 at 12:50:30
Blah, blah fucking blah...

Get it built.

Martin Berry
31 Posted 11/10/2018 at 12:54:17
Mr Moshiri has not set up his office in the Liver building just to look out of his window and face a desolate dock area.

He is looking to have the best view in town — and he is going to get it!

Joe O'Brien
32 Posted 11/10/2018 at 12:54:48
Daniel @26,

I think the massive difference between Bramley-Moore Dock and kings dock is that we've got a billionaire owner now who is clearly putting money into the side... and we've got potentially an even more wealthier owner (we all know his name) stating that he's interested in helping his friend.
That's the reason that this will happen, imo, for sure. Keep the faith.

Bill Watson
33 Posted 11/10/2018 at 12:55:51
Rick #14

71 for me. I'm starting to fear I'll never see the 'spade in the ground' never mind attend a match, there!

Steve Ferns
34 Posted 11/10/2018 at 13:01:12
The stadium WILL happen. It has to or Moshiri makes a big loss on Everton. He doesn't seem the type to make big losses.

For me, the worry is whether we get one or the best grounds in the Premier League or just a big standard ground with a reasonable capacity.

Let's remember that Goodison Park was one of the best grounds in the world at various stages of its (re-)development culminating in the World Cup semi-final. Sure, the old girl has had her day, but it was a ground fit for our motto and the club set all those “firsts” at it. My worry is that the new ground will not be the same. I don't worry it won't get built.

Dave Brierley
35 Posted 11/10/2018 at 13:09:21
Steve Ferns #25 & #34,

I totally agree. I think there's a question mark only over 'when', not 'if'. Uncertainty in the markets is almost certainly the decisive factor in delaying the project but, like you, I believe it will happen.

Hopefully it will be full speed ahead in early 2019.

Tony Abrahams
36 Posted 11/10/2018 at 13:32:43
That's obviously the biggest concern until we see what the design is going to look like, Steve, but I wouldn't be too worried about the cost of steel with “Big Al” waiting in the wings.

Laurie, I love your little snippets on the “Docklands of Melbourne” and I honestly think that Liverpool could outstrip everyone bar the capital once this project gets underway.

It's hard when the Tories are in power; they recently had their party conference in Birmingham, not long after awarding them the Commonwealth games bid, but at least we are going to get our new hospital after Labour came to this city for its own conference!

Politics aside, I don't think any other city in Britain has got such a terrific waterfront; it's been waiting to be developed for a long time now, and when it is, I'm sure that Liverpool as a city will benefit just as much as your adopted home town.

Minik Hansen
37 Posted 11/10/2018 at 13:42:52
It was Sky top 4 some ten years ago, now it's Sky top 6. I'm trying to imagine there'll be more clubs that break into that top 6, West Ham could if they keep spending like that and keeping the right players.

I don't know if Aston Villa will be a great opposition to Everton again, I remember with Villa under O'Neill, we dragged each other at 5th, 6th, 7th some seasons ago. If Newcastle just took the right steps, in which they haven't for a long time (unlike them, we've finished 5th, when there was Sky top 4 clubs).

Is it my blue perspective, but I can't imagine the likes of Leicester, Southampton, Bournemouth, Watford, or Burnley breaking into the top 6 for at least a while, which leaves it with lucky and focused circumstances to Everton for the taking.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

38 Posted 11/10/2018 at 13:47:28
I get all the financial arguments in the current climate: Brexit edging ever closer to the unknown (and financial institutions get easily spooked by the unknown); the meltdown of global stocks in the last 48 hours; the political hot potato of the city mayor's loan proposal to the club.

I get the need to get this right in as many aspects as possible: arrange the best loan deal possible; ensure the planning proposal is watertight; get the build and capacity right.

But a concrete new stadium build project, final designs of how the stadium will look, with start-build-finish dates, remain distinctly lacking, for all the new appointees in the summer to oversee stadium-related matters.

I don't find Sasha Ryazantsev's words very reassuring, in particular: "We see it as an opportunity to close the gap on the top six and the stadium itself will create a huge amount of new life."

The target completion date has been mooted as 2022. We are already close to 2019, but still no financing, planning application, design or final capacity has been announced.

Even in the best case scenario – that we do indeed start the 2022-23 season in a sparkling new dockside stadium – that is still 3 years away.

I find myself siding with Stan Schofield @ 18. A new stadium would be 'nice to have'. Playing well on the pitch and moving up the table is a 'must have'. The two are not mutually inclusive, as Ryazantsev's words imply. We need to strive on the pitch primarily to close the gap to the top six, not await a new stadium build to start to do so.

Tony Abrahams
39 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:01:45
Agree with last paragraph Jay, especially if we are to let the world's first purpose-built football stadium go out with the bang it deserves!
Minik Hansen
40 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:03:16
Jay Wood, I bet there is also a lot of positives going on behind the scenes.
Dave Lynch
41 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:11:17
Transfer window looming...
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

42 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:17:34
I would bloody well hope there are 'many positive things going on behind the scenes', Minik.

There are certainly many positive things going on in the public domain also, thanks to the appointments of Brands and Silva and their recruitment policy and refreshing of the squad.

But as this thread demonstrates – and it is a strong trait of the sons and daughters of the city of Liverpool – we have a low tolerance level of blag.

And every 2-3 months or so we hear some blag about the new stadium, but nothing concrete in terms of the financing, design, start-build-finish date, or capacity.

Given the entire history of Everton's proposed move away from Goodison Park, is it really any wonder some are exasperated with empty rhetoric, rather than spade-in-the-ground action?

As this link shows, it is nearly two years to the day that Moshiri first visited two possible stadium sites at Bramley-Moore Dock and Stonebridge Cross.

Link

Two years.

It's not unreasonable that some consider we should be a tad more advanced than the current hiatus.

Joe O'Brien
43 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:19:58
Where we've always spent money since Moshiri has taken charge, Dave. There's no doubt that he has put money into the club in fairness.
Steve Ferns
44 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:24:56
Jay, might be wishful thinking here, but seeing as he’s the finance guy, was he talking about closing on the big six in terms of income?
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

45 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:35:37
Steve, matchday and non-matchday income is important and part of Ryazantsev's remit on the board.

But he surely must be talking of closing the gap in terms of actual football and league positions, if this was a message intended for the support, rather than specifically his live audience at the Leaders Sports Business Summit?

(At which yesterday, as an aside, I thought the Leeds owner made a valid point with his proposal to change the Championship to Premier League 2 to improve TV earnings - Link)

Lawrence Green
46 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:41:14
Like many others I can't see Everton playing first team games at BMD in 2022-23. If Tottenham's stadium took over ten years to be envisaged and built, how can Everton FC get it done in a little over half the time?

The construction of the stadium was initiated as the centrepiece of the Northumberland Development Project, intended to be the catalyst for a 20-year regeneration project in Tottenham. The project covers the site of the now demolished ground of White Hart Lane and areas adjacent to it. The project was first conceived in 2007 and announced in 2008, but the plan was revised several times, and the construction of the stadium, beset by disputes and delays, did not commence until 2015

Obviously given the Kings Dock and Kirkby debacles the club may not have put all of its progress in the pubic domain and prefer to keep everything closer to their chest rather than make promises they can't keep.

The financial burden on the club is the most pressing matter to most fans, how would it impact on the clubs transfer kitty and, seeing as the club is possibly too over reliant on TV money, how would a decrease in that particular income stream affect the club ten years down the line?

Unless there is a generous and benevolent person or company out there, I can't see how Everton FC will be able to structure the total debt in such a way that satisfies the need for constant transfer dealings and an ever-increasing wage bill.

We do need a new stadium, we needed one 20 years ago, but I still worry we may be biting off more than we can chew by committing the club to so much debt for such a relatively long period. That said, the possiblity of remaining at Goodison Park is also fraught with problems, as unfortunately its condition now reflects the slow decline of Everton FC on the pitch.

We want Everton FC to pursue excellence both on and off the park, but there are many issues surrounding a new build, that could prove devastating for the club if not managed properly; for that reason it is more important for those responsible to make the correct decisions rather than make quick and rash ones. As a fanbase, we have waited this long, we may as well trust that the desire for a new stadium is a real one and that the club are in a position, both now and in the future, to make that desire a reality.

Matthew Williams
47 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:43:28
It will certainly look the part, if built, and will be a major new focal point in the continued expansion of the City Centre.

Footballing wise, as it currently stands, if it had a 100,000 capacity and was made of solid gold, it would only be half-full at best.

The footballing world only notice winners of trophies and that will not be us — unless there is a major shift in current priorities.... or Moshiri sells up!

Derek Taylor
48 Posted 11/10/2018 at 14:50:25
I'm still betting we shall never see this project completed in my lifetime. I was born in 1957.
Steavey Buckley
49 Posted 11/10/2018 at 15:01:11
The UK is probably one of the worst countries in the world to build things quickly and on budget. So, if anyone is expecting a new stadium sooner than later... dream on.
Dave Abrahams
50 Posted 11/10/2018 at 15:29:39
Laurie (20), faith: that is the word. I honestly don't care if I'm not here when the stadium on Bramley-Moore Dock opens to a new season.

I hope I am, but I know my sons, grandsons and great grandsons, who go to see The Blues now, will see Everton play their first game at Bramley-Moore... faith, faith and more faith, it can move mountains.

Those of you who do see the new stadium, if you hear a haunting, screaming voice celebrating Everton scoring a goal, that will be me.

Brian Harrison
51 Posted 11/10/2018 at 15:43:31
Jay @45,

I read what the Leeds chairman was saying about calling the Championship PL2 for a bigger slice of the TV money. But the truth is that they can call it what they like there is no way the teams in the Premier League are going to agree to their proposal. It was only a matter of months ago that the big 6 in the Premier League demanded a bigger share of the TV money, but this was voted down by the other Premier League clubs.

But I don't believe that this will be the end of it, the likes of the top 6 generate most of the World wide interest in Sky games and, at some point, they will have to get their way. I know the likes especially of Man Utd and Liverpool are increasingly wanting to break away from the Sky deal and sell all their games on their own pay for view channels. There might even be a move to create a European league which would sound the death knell for the Premier League.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

52 Posted 11/10/2018 at 15:53:56
Brian @ 51.

The way I read it Brian was that he was neither asking for, nor expecting, the Premier League (1, if you like...) to divi up their own TV earnings with the PL2/Championship.

I think he was floating the idea of rebranding the Championship to improve its marketing value and thus - quite reasonably - ask for more from televised matches on the back of that. The Championship and the rest of the Football League has its own TV deals which have absolutely nothing to do with the Premier League's own deals.

It is particularly pertinent to his own club, Leeds, because as he mentions their games are consistently the most televised live matches.

I have a Leeds United fan as a mate and he constantly complains about their fixtures being messed around to accommodate the TV broadcasters and – like his chairman, it would seem – believes this does impact on Leeds' performances over a season.

The Leeds chairman says the current TV match fee does not compensate them enough to cover costs at times. The even greater cost to his club is that accumulative, over the course of a season, it costs them valuable points which ultimately denies them promotion to the land of milk and honey of the Premier League.

I thought he presented a well-reasoned case for his idea.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

53 Posted 11/10/2018 at 15:59:57
To answer another point you raise, Brian, the mega clubs of the major European leagues will without doubt be studying the possibility of creating a 'closed shop' European Super League for themselves.

I wouldn't be so quick, should that be realised, to predict that would sound the death knell for the Premier League, or any other domestic league.

I'm more confident that domestic leagues would continue to have broad appeal for home audiences and would not slip quietly into the night.

Mike Gaynes
54 Posted 11/10/2018 at 16:29:20
Dermot #7, superb comment. Judging by many of the posts here, your perspective is needed.

Please save room in the freezer for me. Just my head if necessary. You'd carry me to the game, right?

Justin Doone
55 Posted 11/10/2018 at 16:35:04
I've said a few times: it will take 5 years and, as it's not moved forward for 12 months, I'm not expecting a new home before the 2023-24 season.

We may have new owners by the time building commences!

James Ebden
56 Posted 11/10/2018 at 17:00:23
Laurie @24,

What that article doesn't state is that West Ham have to MASSIVELY discount their tickets to get anywhere near those attendances. I live in London, and their tickets are advertised every week in the free papers from £5!

Don't assume all extra capacity will be filled with full paying punters. That's why the stadium will never be 60k, because the extra 5k seats never pay for themselves when they are rarely filled, and even then at only £5-10 per ticket. Not forgetting the extra 5k seats are disproportionately expensive to build.

A high-quality 55k stadium, with improved transport and a regenerated area, would be great for us, and has more chance of succeeding than this silly 61,878 thrown around by many.

Craig Walker
57 Posted 11/10/2018 at 17:19:53
This is the one positive thing that keeps me going as an Evertonian with hope of rejoining English football's elite clubs.

I wish we'd get some designs or early ideas or anything instead of reading about what the outcome of a new stadium would mean for the club.

Christy Ring
58 Posted 11/10/2018 at 17:51:36
I'm totally positive, and believe Moshiri is totally committed to the new stadium, unlike Kenwright and Co. You have to look at the money spent in the transfer windows, and the changes in the boardroom, to see that he's here long-term.
John Cartwright
59 Posted 11/10/2018 at 17:57:08
I don't see 61,878 as silly, anything less shows a lack of ambition and confidence. Most RS fans would be smirking if we settled on a smaller ground. If we are going to mix it in the top 6, let alone top 4, we need a ground to match our ambitions.
Christy Ring
60 Posted 11/10/2018 at 18:14:31
Great to see Mina, Gomes, Macca and Baningime played a 60-min game at Finch Farm today.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

62 Posted 11/10/2018 at 18:23:46
John @ 59.

'I don't see 61,878 as silly, anything less shows a lack of ambition and confidence. Most RS fans would be smirking if we settled on a smaller ground.'

Anfield's capacity is just a smidgen over 54,000.

In the whole of England, Wembley is out on its own at 90,000. Next Man Utd – the only club with a +70k capacity.

Spurs' new ground will make them only one of 3 clubs with a +60k capacity, joining Arsenal and West Ham.

Then there are just 3 more clubs with a +50k capacity – Man City, our bastard offspring and Newcastle.

So a +50k capacity is not commonplace and we don't need the romantic number you quote as a minimum to stop our loveable neighbours 'smirking' at us.

Brent Stephens
63 Posted 11/10/2018 at 18:25:22
Derek #48,

"I'm still betting we shall never see this project completed in my lifetime. I was born in 1957".

How would you intend to collect?

John McFarlane Snr
64 Posted 11/10/2018 at 18:39:15
Hi Dave [#50], I share your sentiments entirely, if we didn't have faith as Evertonians, we would have thrown in the towel years ago; add a little bit of hope and who knows what may happen?

Our memories of Goodison (good and bad) will be experienced by our descendants in new surroundings, but the important thing is that the 'faith' is maintained.

Mike Gaynes
65 Posted 11/10/2018 at 18:41:53
Christy #60, great news indeed. Jags too. Thanks for the head's up!

Here's the update from the club site: http://www.evertonfc.com/news/2018/10/11/blues-boosted-by-quartets-return

Mike Gaynes
66 Posted 11/10/2018 at 18:43:45
Brent #63, he can have himself frozen alongside Dermot #7 and me.
Tony Everan
67 Posted 11/10/2018 at 18:56:14
Christy #60

Great news for all of those lads, maybe another game scheduled for next Tuesday? Having them 4 back, training hard and chomping at the bit for a start, can only be very good news for the club.

I am particularly delighted for James McCarthy coming back after his injury. I'm surprised Martin O'Neill hasn't called him up to play a full game for the Republic on Saturday.

Dave Abrahams
68 Posted 11/10/2018 at 19:13:39
John (64), nice to hear from you, I hope your recovery is coming on nicely and you are back supporting The Blues in your, for now, spiritual home. Best wishes as always.
John Cartwright
69 Posted 11/10/2018 at 19:18:59
Jay, the RS are planning a 60k stadium already by extending the Anfield Road end. You ommited Man Utd from the list so I feel we will need to think big and show desire to compete at the top.
Jay Wood
[BRZ]

71 Posted 11/10/2018 at 19:40:45
John. I can only quote current numbers. A stadium of 50k will be more than 10k up on our present capacity.

Rather than fret about having a prosaic discussion about a mystical capacity of 61,878 or not, I'd rather see and hear about concrete plans to fund and construct a new stadium with start, build, finish, and open dates.

And you evidently missed this paragraph in my previous post:

'In the whole of England, Wembley is out on its own at 90,000. Next Man Utd – the only club with a +70k capacity.'

Paul Birmingham
72 Posted 11/10/2018 at 19:49:18
Brilliant gallows humour on this thread! I've an open mind but for the club to have put more profile and progress updates on Bramley-Moore Dock, albeit sparingly, surely then this time it's for real..?

Hope eternal, this if it happens, will be like the parting of the Dead Sea for Evertonians, such is the fresh hope for the future and the optimism it would give.

I'd like to think that the club is working on the total project – the stadium design, build and business plan – to make the club a viable business, including fair prices for admission reflecting the economic times.

The Bundesliga match prices as in most European Leagues seem more realistic and affordable for the average football supporter.

Success on the pitch is the priority and, in such a finance driven world, the club needs top class naming rights and sponsorship to endorse such a prestigious project, and generate Brand value and security.

The club having the Liver Building also can be bold and make a massive life-long impression on the City and great opportunities to integrate the social, economic and business of the North docks area.

The club alledgedly have the bit between the teeth, in terms of this project but momentum must be consistent. The costs will soar, and there will be some defined trigger point for go, or no-go, as with all project plans.

Hopefully sooner than later, but proper planning in all aspects and due diligence is needed. Has the club learned and is the wisdom of learning from past projects and other clubs, gonna be a positive or negative driver?

Farhad Moshiri alone has a chance to build a great legacy on and off the park. For now, I see the project in review, and no regular updates to the public.

There lies the issue but perhaps the club's Project Team have all signed NDAs.

Hope eternal on and off the Park; hopefully all TWs will see the new plans come to life... by 2024...

There's some road works going on at Regent Road but not the whole length... could it be a baseline to upgrading existing infrastructure to access the docks?

Wishful thinking. Hope eternal for EFC.

Joe McMahon
73 Posted 11/10/2018 at 19:53:44
When I turned 40, I was sure I would see Everton in a new stadium before I was 50. My 49th Birthday was 3 weeks ago, so now I'm thinking it's gonna be nearer me being 60.

Christ — Kings Dock fell through 15 years ago and we are still at Woodison. How much longer will Bullens last with new blue paint and Sellotape???

Dermot Byrne
74 Posted 11/10/2018 at 19:56:56
Stop your moaning, Joe. I'm 58 on Tuesday. Have faith, you will see it! As will I.

Then we can debate how some think seats at the RS ground are shite.

Brent Stephens
75 Posted 11/10/2018 at 19:57:36
Mike #66 - cool!
Dan Brierley
76 Posted 11/10/2018 at 20:00:34
How does having a big stadium show desire? I know a guy who splashed out on Range Rover Sport because he believed it would make others take him more seriously. But everybody knows full well he doesn't need a Range Rover to drive around the city, and is crippling himself to pay for it.

Having the right stadium that we can fill week-in & week-out, with the right corporate and fan facilities, and won't significantly eat into squad funding, has to be the goal? Talk of 60,000+ stadiums is Range Rover-esque to say the least! We don't need that capacity, and certainly don't have the revenue streams to support it.

Alan McGuffog
77 Posted 11/10/2018 at 20:16:27
To add to all this bollocks, I am watching Turkey v Bosnia in a bar in southwest Turkey. Cenk has just attempted an overhead. Sweet baby Jesus!

Second half and he hasn't touched it yet. Bless. Roll on, Gillmoss!

John Cartwright
78 Posted 11/10/2018 at 20:36:58
Dan I'd prefer a Range Rover to a mini anyway...can fit more people in it 😀
Brent Stephens
79 Posted 11/10/2018 at 20:51:00
John, yes but if you don't have enough mates etc who want to go in your Range Rover...
Daniel A Johnson
80 Posted 11/10/2018 at 20:56:08
How old is Moshiri??? Can he wait 10 years for it to happen?
Tom Bowers
81 Posted 11/10/2018 at 20:57:41
We need this new stadium to move into the 21st. century big time and to provide the backdrop for the wonderful new team being built.

Okay, a little early to jump the gun, I admit, but, with the injured players coming back, we shall soon have a full squad to choose from, which can't be a bad thing as long as nobody else gets injured, particularly with this international break.

Good to see the Everton players at the England Under-21s game combining so well even if it is only against Andorra.

Lawrence Green
82 Posted 11/10/2018 at 21:08:56
He's 63, Daniel, Born 18 May 1955.
Ken Williams
83 Posted 11/10/2018 at 21:09:28
I will believe it when I am sitting in the new ground watching the match. Until then it is just talk, talk and more talk.
Karl Meighan
84 Posted 11/10/2018 at 21:22:35
As regards West Ham, I'm confident that, if they had a winning team, their fans wouldn't complain about a lack of atmosphere... purpose-built football stadium or not.

I never had any complaints winning at the old Wembley or the new for that matter and fans were not close to the pitch there.

Like most, I'm still loving Goodison when full after a victory over any of the so-called Sky 6, but I do believe that, the faster we get to the new stadium, the more it will help manager and coaches get us upto and keep us where we belong.

Stan Schofield
85 Posted 11/10/2018 at 21:33:03
Anfield was inferior in many ways to Goodison for many years, but it didn't stop them over the park being the best team in Europe. Anfield is still fairly shite, like an overblown sardine can, in my humble opinion.

Anyway, the point is, it's not he stadium so much as the quality of the team that decides whether we're elite or not. Those beautiful bits of football by Bernard and Sigurdsson would look the same regardless of the stadium, and I can't for the life of me see what all the fuss is about.

Peter Mills
86 Posted 11/10/2018 at 21:54:01
I’m 62, and am determined to hang around to take up my season ticket at the new stadium. Then, I shall gently slip away.

So, please, let’s have more business case preparation, fan consultation, money-sourcing, rs protests, planning applications, construction delays. I may live to see 2050.

Neil Copeland
88 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:17:36
Mike 66, I think you are going to need a bigger freezer!
John McFarlane Snr
89 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:34:43
Hi again, Dave [68],

Yes, I am in my customary seat in the Park End, Everton were superb in first of all, allowing my daughter Nicki to take over my seat when it looked as though I had seen my last game at Goodison, and when I felt well enough to attend matches again, they didn't hesitate in reinstating my season ticket and giving me a refund of £262.00.

This enabled Josh to continue attending games. I know that Everton come in for a bit of stick now and again but, as far as I'm concerned, they are indeed "The People's Club" — a club I'm proud to support. We must get together again for a cup of tea in the Church.

Neil Copeland
90 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:35:28
Stan 85... Ha! You have solved it in one! We need to have Bernard and Sigurdsson build the new stadium.
Laurie Hartley
91 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:37:36
Jay #42 – that two years has gone fast! Would you agree though that we lost one year through the debacle that Koeman and Walsh created in "their" transfer window? If I had been Moshiri, I would definitely have said "Hold your horses" under those circumstances.

James #56 – I had read that West Ham had been selling seats cheaply; however, 56,000 is still 18,000 more fans per game than Everton and I reckon our fan base is bigger than theirs.

My thoughts on the stadium size have varied over time. I think the site and the orientation of the pitch will have determined the capacity from what I have read.

I can't see it being more than 55,000 at the most. I think it would be full for any games between us "them" and the two Manchester clubs and I reckon we would get 50,000 for any other games. In my opinion, that would be a good outcome.

My guess is the capacity has already been decided, the design completed, and the budget set. That would be necessary information required by any financier, I would have thought.

On the construction, I would be very surprised if the stadium is not of concrete construction in the main. Only the roof will be made from steel.

Dave, Tony, and John Mc – a very great thing to possess is faith. ;)

John Boon
92 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:42:30
I watched Everton vs Liverpool on 18 September 1948. I was 9 years old at the time and we drew 1-1. Jock Dodds scored for us and Willie Fagan for them. There was 78,000 plus at the game, an attendance record. I was with my friend Allan Clare and we were in the very front.

I know that we won't get anywhere that when we move to the new Stadium, but I don't have any doubt that I will still be around. To be a true Evertonian, you have to loyal to the cause as well as a little bit daft. I intend to live to at least 100 to celebrate having won the Premier League 10 years in a row.

Christy Ring
93 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:44:39
Tony @67

I can't wait for Macca champing at the bit!!!

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

94 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:48:50
Laurie, I was also surprised it's already 2 years since those long lens photos of Moshiri at Bramley-Moore Dock appeared.

Personally, I would have thought the stadium move is such a cornerstone project to Moshiri's plans for Everton that it would not be put on hold due to events on the pitch or an underperforming manager and his director of football.

That it is already 2 years ago further highlights how slow progress has been on the stadium question.

Dan Brierley
95 Posted 11/10/2018 at 22:53:42
Stan, I think you're right here. Nobody seems to judge a club's intent on the stadium they play in, it's always on the football that they play, the players that play it and/or the manager.

There are some teams that have developed a reputation based on the stadium experience (I'm thinking St Pauli or Fenerbache), but that's more down to the fans, not the stadium itself.

It would feel hollow to sit in a 61,878 capacity stadium that was 80% filled, fighting for 7th place. A new stadium needs to happen, but it cannot come at a cost that has too high an impact on the budget for the playing staff.

Stan Schofield
96 Posted 11/10/2018 at 23:05:37
Dan, spot on, the team comes first (we need top players and the money to secure them), and the stadium a firm second. Personally, I couldn't give a toss whether we have a new stadium, so long as the team performs well.
Mike Price
97 Posted 12/10/2018 at 00:23:18
Christy #93,

Finally someone has said ‘champing at the bit', not ‘chomping'! Thank you.

David Ellis
98 Posted 12/10/2018 at 03:26:14
Jay #53 on super leagues:

"I'm more confident that domestic leagues would continue to have broad appeal for home audiences and would not slip quietly into the night."

I don't know what you base this confidence on. Look at what happened to other clubs in Liverpool once the Football League was established in the 1880s – our big rivals were Bootle and Earlestown. They did indeed slip quietly into the night.

Times are different now but even more accentuated to a "winner takes all" system. A European Super League would be a death knell for any club outside it. Okay, we may carry on playing Villa and Newcastle, but we'd be playing at a whole level lower than the top clubs, permanently second division and perhaps playing their B squads in the FA Cup. There would be no rivalry with Liverpool or the Manchester clubs, and the standards would be dramatically lower.

Andy Osborne
99 Posted 12/10/2018 at 05:48:28
Nothing stopping a stadium being designed and built for a 55k capacity, but with the ability to be expanded later, if and when required.

I'm pretty sure Man City did this recently.

Jay Wood
[BRZ]

100 Posted 12/10/2018 at 06:48:39
David @ 98. This is purely a hypothetical discussion so anything anyone says is highly speculative.

However, as you said yourself David, your example is from a very, VERY different time, at the very beginning of professional football 150 years ago. As such, I don't think it's a very valid one.

UEFA expressed concerns just last season about falling numbers for both live matches and TV audiences. It is already being mooted they are considering yet another format change, so possibly the appetite for non-domestic games has less appeal than domestic games.

That often seems the case if you compare attendance figures for almost any Premier League team in European games against their Premier League attendances.

Every weekend, almost every Premier League game, regardless of the opposition, is at 80, 90 even 100% capacity.

Interest in domestic Premier League football is consistently strong. I don't think that interest would collapse if a breakaway group formed part of a European Super League.

And a strong reason I hold that belief is because the broadcasters would still compete to televise this modified domestic league. As a business, it would remain viable and lucrative.

There are an abundance of channels worldwide now and they all need content.

In this scenario I don't see Everton, or any other Premier League side, slipping away quietly into the night like your Victorian examples of Bootle and Earlestown.

Kieran Fitzgerald
101 Posted 12/10/2018 at 07:16:22
James @56, West Ham may not have had the match-going fanbase to begin with to constantly fill a stadium of that size. While the stadium atmosphere may also be part of it, I think it is a good idea to sell tickets in the way you have described.

Their board were slow to show the ambition required to make the most of the new and bigger stadium and this was going against the club before this summer. However, this season, they went out and spent money on players, have gotten in an experienced manager, and are trying to make the style of play more attractive and competitive as a result. This ambition, if they continue it, will get more fans in to their new stadium. Once you get people hooked, they keep coming back.

Look at the attendance at Goodison Park in recent seasons. Despite the godawful fare on the pitch, attendances didn't fall off the edge of a cliff. Being a football fan gets into your bones and it is very hard to walk away. I lost a lot of interest in recent seasons but just couldn't disengage completely.

I think the trick for West Ham, and any club with a new and bigger stadium, is keeping the momentum going and getting the benefit you hoped for from the stadium.

Having the ambition is great, but you also need the seed money to begin with to make the most of the new stadium. Man City had both; Arsenal had both; we are starting to show that we have it, albeit to a lesser extent. Both Bolton and Sunderland didn't have the cash.

Man City had enough cash, the right ambition and perhaps as importantly the recruitment policy to keep going until they got to where they are now. Arsenal fell away to some degree due to keeping Wenger on for too long, but they did enough to stay somewhat competitive. They have now recruited a new manager that is doing well and have more than enough cash in reserve to go toe to toe with any team in the transfer market.

Everton have cash and, through trial and error, finally seem to be getting the recruitment policy right. The question for me is: Do we have the ambition — something the club has lacked most of all, to get things done.

Alan McGuffog
102 Posted 12/10/2018 at 08:32:08
The only reason I can now see for this going ahead is that if the club DO mess up (a la Everton) once more, it will become a real laughing stock and will almost certainly alienate a lot of supporters for ever.
Paul Dewhurst
103 Posted 12/10/2018 at 09:48:17
To all the people moaning and naysaying, I ask the following: What experience have you got in funding and developing a £500m-£1bn project?

How does the negativity in saying "We have been here before; it will happen again" benefit you? (Other than the possibility of saying "I told you so"!)

What difference does 4, 5, 6 years make as long as it's done in the best way it can be delivered?

How much of an impact will it make for Spurs fans, once they are in the stadium and winning games, that it was delayed?

What benefit do you get from complaining online and saying "We are Everton; we always mess it up"?

What will be, will be — unless you can influence it or do a better job than Moshiri in funding the club?

Stop dragging the club and its image down, and breath a bit of life into Goodison. Because it is becoming a morgue — we may only have this stadium a few more years; let's make the best of it!

Cheer up!!!

David Ellis
104 Posted 12/10/2018 at 10:22:14
Jay – hopefully we don't get to find out who's right!

Actually, I agree we would continue as a viable business – assuming we survive the initial revenue shock; say a 70% drop in revenue... might be tricky with all those players on Premier League contracts.

But, after that, the standard of player we could attract would be lower than now as the revenue would be much lower than before, and the profile of the league much reduced. It would be very depressing.

There are more recent examples of similar scenarios such as the decline of the Welsh Rugby Union Clubs, the decline of the Old Firm, the decline of Ajax and Benfica. We'd be on the same level as the Old Firm clubs are now. Of course Celtic might get into this new League (as may Ajax).

Lawrence Green
105 Posted 12/10/2018 at 10:22:29
Paul #103,
You do have a point as, according to a tweet by the Esk, Everton are far below where they need to be when it comes to non-broadcasting income. His figures show that, in the last available accounts, 2016-17 non-broadcasting revenue was as follows:

Arsenal £217m
Chelsea £204m
Liverpool £210m
Man City £270m
Manr Utd £388m
Spurs £118m
West Ham £65m
Everton £40m

This table shows that the board have some catching up to do with those clubs that they want to emulate in terms of commercial activity, and that the cost of the stadium may inhibit progress on the pitch rather than accelerate it, unless and until Everton FC find some major sponsorship or commercial partners.

If this ground move fails, it would add to a long litany of failed plans by the club... but, this time, given the scale of the costs involved, it might not be the present owners' fault, but rather more the decline of the club's commercial activity which has beset it for nearly 30 years. The club is in a stronger financial position with Moshiri on board but is it yet in the right position to take on such a major undertaking as a move to a new ground?

I would imagine that, apart from what the supporters have witnessed on the pitch in the last few years, this failure to attract commercial income to the club has also sapped the confidence of the fans and that may have also led them to view things a little less optimistically than they may have done even five years ago.

Don't blame the fans for being cynical or less than optimistic about the possibility of moving to a new stadium – they know the facts, they know the figures, and, at this moment in time, the figures aren't really adding up – and neither is the timescale that the club insists is possible.

The problem, as I personally see it, is that, from the outside, it seems the board is looking to take a huge gamble and hoping that the new stadium will become the driver for increased sponsorship etc... but what if that doesn't happen? Where will Everton FC be then?

Tony Everan
106 Posted 12/10/2018 at 11:18:06
Christy, Mike

Thank you for educating me.

'Champing' was the original, 'chomping' didn't appear until the 1930s.

'Chomping' is now the more popular and frequently used but that doesn't necessarily make it right!

And that's straight from the horse's mouth (the Oxford English Dictionary).

Tony Marsh
107 Posted 12/10/2018 at 12:56:27
Yet more nothing news regarding the Idea of a new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock because – in reality – this is all it is... an idea!

If we are being honest with ourselves, there is absolutely nothing of any real substance to talk about regards this matter. All we really have at the moment are promises and maybes.

It is now over 2 years since Farhad Moshiri went live on TalkSport telling the world about this fantastic stadium we would all be proud of... yet nothing — and I mean nothing has been done.

I have said it before: Why not, if this stadium is a definite starter, have we not at least drained the dock and put in the initial foundations??? I cannot see how doing the footprint now could impact on the build design. None of this heel-dragging makes any sense.

Around this time last year, Michael Kenrick said I was talking nonsense when I raised my concern on these very same issues. Now another year passes by and still not a hard hat or high-viz jacket in sight down at Bramley-Moore Dock. Why can the basics not be started?? Why, after all this time, not one single bucket of cement has been laid??

No planning permission. No stadium drawings. No finance yet in place — just waffling and bullshiting as per usual — and it's me talking nonsense...

Sean Kelly
108 Posted 12/10/2018 at 12:57:01
I'm sitting here with pipes and graphs going apeshit on an ECG. I hope they don't announce anything in the next few hours. 2022 will do me thanks.
James Hughes
109 Posted 12/10/2018 at 13:11:25
In comparing us to other clubs now in terms of new stadiums, I would like to add a couple of points.

The big issue for West Ham is the running track around the pitch. It detracts from the gameday involvement: you are too removed.

They had the fan base to fill the stadium and sold over 60,000 season tickets. The number is now well down. Many of my mates here are Hammers; many have given up going due to the lack of atmosphere.
Part of the deal was also they had to donate to Newham Council matchday tickets. This allocation is not always used, leading to many empty seats and (again) lack of atmosphere.

Now the Commonwealth Games have gone elsewhere, we don't have that hanging over the stadium build. I also believe we should stay away from any funding deal with Liverpool Council, due to the above comment about Newham. Any finance deal with the Liverpool Council would lead to so many clauses in the contract that your head would spin.

If – WHEN? – we actually go ahead and build the stadium, then benefits will be massive for all. The whole area would benefit and would attract more business and visitors to the city. IMO, the benefits far outweigh any detriment. I just think the longer we leave it before going to market, the bigger the opening bid will be.

So come on, get a move on! It will l save us in the end!!!

Jonathan Tasker
110 Posted 12/10/2018 at 14:00:39
There's no new ground!

[How any times?]

John Pierce
111 Posted 12/10/2018 at 14:24:10
The stadium development is not the issue. As always, Everton's ability to communicate effectively leaves chasms of doubt for supporters to fill with their own fears and anxieties.

The club internally were refreshed in the summer. Yet no clear individual communicates regularly and clearly to allay doubt and suspicion.

The club is accountable, and has yet to remedy a long-standing issue.

Ron Sear
112 Posted 12/10/2018 at 15:02:31
I still can't help worrying about what will surround this new stadium. The infrastructure in the area around the dock (apart from one hotel) is absolutely abysmal. No independent shops, bars, cafes, restaurants, car and coach parking, buses... and just one small railway station — plus the general air of a collapsing industrial estate, complete with iron scrap tips and commercial refuse processing.

The only thing Dan Meis can do is to produce a stadium that acts as a cash-syphoning machine if you want to experience any of the more civilised aspects of life as well as the football. It will be a bit like going to Manchester Airport — and just as costly, for those of you who appreciate that kind of experience.

Rob Halligan
113 Posted 12/10/2018 at 15:26:37
Ron, you have probably just described the surroundings of probably 99% of new stadiums in this country.

I have been to every new(ish) stadium in this country that Everton have played at and, as far as I remember, there is very little in terms of bars, restaurants and shops surrounding the new stadiums. We will be lucky in the fact that Bramley-Moore Dock is only a short walk from Liverpool city centre, so there will be plenty of bars and restaurants (and shops) that will be used on a matchday. Hopefully the bars in the new stadium will be good enough to attract people to get to the stadium early.

Obviously, all new stadiums have car / coach parking surrounding the stadiums, so this shouldn't cause any problems when we come to build.

I really don't see the point in building new bars and restaurants adjacent to the new stadium which will probably only be used for a few hours one day a week. That's just my opinion though.

Pete Edwards
114 Posted 12/10/2018 at 15:27:45
We're great, us Evertonians, aren't we! Nothing gets said and it's all moaning about it's never going to happen... and, when someone from within the club (or Dan Meiss) say something, we get the same moans!!

These things take time, a lot of time. Not every single piece of what's going on will be brought up and announced. I'm sure there's a group of "fans" who just want us to fail at everything so they can tell us they were right and "I told you so"!!

Annoying to fuck, to be honest.

Rob Halligan
115 Posted 12/10/2018 at 15:32:03
Pete. Totally agree mate.
Tony Abrahams
116 Posted 12/10/2018 at 15:53:34
I'm not sure Moshiri, and hopefully his mate would have got involved if it was just to build a stadium and nothing else.

Look at last night's Echo, the Baltic Triangle is getting a new 500-apartment building, with a cost of £90 million, and just think of the scope around Bramley-Moore, for the money-men.

I'm glad we are not going to build this stadium on the back of the Commonwealth Games but it would have been nice to get hold of all that money to spend on the infrastructure hat this development will ultimately bring.

I think some of the stadiums you mention, Rob, are close enough to their respective city centres that not much else gets done once the stadium is built. But, with the plans of Peel Holdings for this unique location, then this is probably why this stadium is so important to the creation of this villageon the outskirts of the city centre.

Derek Taylor
117 Posted 12/10/2018 at 16:01:54
Explain to me, Pete, just how our club has progressed over the 50+ years of my support?

We were definitely Big Time in the Sixties but now we are just bloody average in every way. Moshiri has managed to spend all the additional TV money on crap managers and iffy players. Still, only the hope remains.

Michael Kenrick
118 Posted 12/10/2018 at 16:20:03
A lot of good comments above on this perennial problem the club have had in getting us a new stadium.

I wouldn't comment as it's primarily a waiting game — and most of us know this only too well... But you-know-who has finally made his all-too-predictable appearance on this thread (@107), spouting his usual nonsense and naming me in the process of his frustrations:

"Why not, if this stadium is a definite starter, have we not at least drained the dock and put in the initial foundations??? I cannot see how doing the footprint now could impact on the build design. Around this time last year, Michael Kenrick said I was talking nonsense when I raised my concern on these very same issues. "

Tony, sorry, but you have absolutely no fucking idea. No comprehension, no knowledge, no nothing. You were talking nonsense then, and you're talking nonsense now. Clearly what I say has no effect, but hopefully other readers won't be swayed by your strawman nonsense.

The foundations are the most important part of a project like this because, if they're not done exactly right, and fully copacetic with the structure on top... well, you might as well forget the whole thing.

I know this because it's my business. It's what I do for a living. And I've seen it go wrong first hand in a massively embarrassing way for one of the largest structures in downtown San Francisco. A 58-storey skyscraper has already sunk 17 inches into the Old Bay Clay... and we don't think it will stop till it gets to 2½ feet — and it's tilting, none of which pleases the hundreds of residents who paid millions of dollars for their luxury apartments. And it's happening because they got the foundations horribly wrong:

A 58-story skyscraper in San Francisco is tilting and sinking — and residents say their multimillion-dollar condos are 'nearly worthless'

They changed the build on top from steel to concrete — which weighs four times as much — but didn't change the foundation design to support it.

You don't start "the basics" until the whole plan is in place and approved. Until you've gone through the whole planning process and got the green light. Just imagine the furore if Everton did what you said, ran out there, drained the dock and built some crazy-ass foundations (not that they could without permission, but let's play along with your madcap idea for a moment)... and then the project went tits-up. Laughing stock wouldn't be the half of it!! Or the stadium got built... and it started sinking!!!

I understand the frustrations, believe me, but please don't have them make you spout 100% total shite as a result, Tony.

Brent Stephens
119 Posted 12/10/2018 at 16:34:25
Tony #107 "No planning permission. No stadium drawings. No finance yet in place — just waffling and bullshiting as per usual — and it's me talking nonsense..."

Well, you said it.

Stephen Davies
120 Posted 12/10/2018 at 16:55:10
For this club to have any future (in respect of challenging for honours) then a new stadium is crucial to competing against the likes of the present top 6. Otherwise, we will be a perpetual mid-table club unable to compete on a regular basis.

I don't think Moshiri has bought us to remain a mid-table side or pay the salaries of Harris and Chong as some sort of facade that we are forever pretending that we are.

Michael Kenrick
121 Posted 12/10/2018 at 16:59:24
That said, couldn't they tell us a bunch more than they have? Couldn't they show us the conceptual sketches, the 3-D VR fly-thru? The American-style concourses with bars, restaurants, club stores... You can bet Mies has these already, and has shown them to the Board.

It's the lesson they've learnt the hard way, from Kings Dock and Destination Kirkby... but surely it's the wrong lesson. Those projects didn't fail because they let the plans out too early. They made fundamental errors that they are determined not to repeat, but what would be the harm in showing us more of the conceptual plans?

Yes, the plans could change; yes, the finance is still not in place. But here is what we are thinking of building, after all the fan consultation and feedback. It may have to change when it goes through planning permission and engineering review, but this is where we are at.

Why not? What would be the harm? Show a little bit of faith.

Dermot Byrne
122 Posted 12/10/2018 at 17:17:25
Michael Kenrick : that will shut us all up! Nice one.
Tony Marsh
123 Posted 12/10/2018 at 19:04:40
Okay, Micheal, I conceed to your superior knowledge on all foundation matters but what I am trying to say is nothing at all has been done as of yet. Nada, Zilch, Zero. Why 2 years after revealing this stadium plan to the world we haven't seen any progress whatsoever on any front?? At least send in a firm to clear the site and put some hoardings up... but no, nothing.

I have been told the wall surrounding Bramley Moore Dock site is listed and needs to be taken out brick by brick, stored, and then rebuilt which includes the Gateway and pillars. Is this true? If so, why not start doing that, Jon?

There is a complete lack of movement down there and it is a proper shithole. Surely clearing the surrounding areas would help get us a bit of a head start — if funding is ever found, that is. Was knocking back the Council's funding scheme another heel-dragging exercise?? Certainly appears so.

Why on earth bring this stadium idea in to the public domain when the club never had and still doesn't have a single base covered when it comes to any aspect of this project? What you are telling me is, after 2 years plus of messing about on a project of this scale, there is not a single job the club could be getting on with? There is nothing whatsoever to do in that area of the city??

I am not buying that, sorry.

Mike Gaynes
124 Posted 12/10/2018 at 19:10:51
Michael #118 and #121, I don't comment on the stadium threads because I know so little about the issues, but those are two great posts.

Funny you should mention Millenium Tower – my ex-wife works for a firm that sub-contracted some of the design work for Handel Architects on that ill-fated project. (Apparently they did some past work in Pisa, Italy.)

My favorite news item from that whole mess has been one quoting an architect as assuring everyone that the tower is in no danger of tipping over.

David McMullen
125 Posted 12/10/2018 at 19:18:20
Reading through, one or two points.

Some good comments that it's a big project, it will take time. The club wants to learn from mistakes of other clubs – not just Tottenham and West Ham, but all of them! Those awful identikit grounds, Southampton, Middlesbrough, Derby, even Leicester. Through to Arsenal's design.

As for the capacity. Some moaning about 61,878 being fanciful. Don't just mention West Ham because they're discounting their tickets. All new grounds have a spike in attendances. Maintaining them is another thing of course. New grounds have a genuine pull. And why not discount some tickets? Add in the location, jobs a good'un.

The only thing I'd question from the club and Dan Meis is the "size envy" quote. I want us to keep up with our peers (the top 6). 60k will be the benchmark; just because some are not yet at that level doesn't mean they won't. Didn't Meis say the stadium would not be added to once built?

I think since the summer the club has gone up a level but the stadium I'm sure will happen. Hopefully since Elstone went we're now going to be even more ambitious with the capacity instead of downplaying whether we could fill a stadium just over 50k – never mind 60,000.

Mike Gaynes
126 Posted 12/10/2018 at 19:20:02
PS... I assume you read the news a couple of weeks ago that the windows have started cracking up there?
Dermot Byrne
127 Posted 12/10/2018 at 19:41:09
Good post, fellow Iceman!
Billy Roberts
128 Posted 12/10/2018 at 20:35:29
Christ, I'm a stadium news junkie but the frigging apparent inertia could test the patience of a saint. All that said, I'm definitely in the Kenrick, Dermot camp of logical time scale thinking etc.

Tony Marsh, it seems even though you seemed to have moderated your wild outbursts, you are still a bit irrational with your stadium "man didn't land on the moon" conspiracy theory. Anyway, please don't take offence — as a reader of TW for a number of years but a first time poster, we are all part of ToffeeWeb's life's rich pageant.

Paul O'Neill
129 Posted 12/10/2018 at 20:43:16
That's just peachy. Now get it built!
Laurie Hartley
132 Posted 12/10/2018 at 23:13:28
Michael #121 – that is a very fair comment. The concept plans have already been drawn up without a doubt in my mind.

I base this opinion on the fact that the orientation of the pitch and therefore the stadium has been decided – Dan Meis commented on this somewhere.

They should most definitely have something to show us.

Michael Kenrick
133 Posted 13/10/2018 at 04:32:40
Hey Mike, I missed that news about windows cracking.

It's not so much the architects but the engineers; however, they're probably all in the same bag as far as Joe Public is concerned.

Tony @123.

It doesn't have planning permission.

So nothing gets done. Nothing.

Least of all, moving the wall and putting it in storage.

That's the way of the world. Not Everton's fault.

Mike Gaynes
134 Posted 13/10/2018 at 04:36:59
Welcome, Billy. You have crossed to the other side. There is no going back.
Kieran Kinsella
135 Posted 13/10/2018 at 05:03:12
Tony Marsh,

On the shit hole front. The dock in your words is a “proper” shit hole while Goodison is an “embarrassing” shit hole. Is proper better than embarrassing? Or does proper mean it is more of a shit hole, ie, worse, whereas Goodison is embarrassing by not being as much of a shit hole?

Just trying to get some clarity.

Steve Brown
136 Posted 13/10/2018 at 05:21:11
I pray that the stadium gets built, just to see Tony Marsh sat there eating his pie.
Eric Myles
137 Posted 13/10/2018 at 06:24:54
Paul #5 "the engineering required to get the ground prepared is immense."

I work on islands which are increasing their land mass exponentially every year and see it daily.

It's amazingly easy and quick to fill in the dock using a dredger. That to me would be the main engineering obstacle. After that, it's normal construction techniques.

Eric Myles
138 Posted 13/10/2018 at 06:29:02
Rob #8, no need for the expense of a pump, just use the Eureka principle.
Eric Myles
139 Posted 13/10/2018 at 06:54:02
John #69 "the RS are planning a 60k stadium already by extending the Anfield Road end."

That was their original plan but, seeing as how their owners' plans to raise ticket prices in their current loft conversion were scuppered, what is their appetite to put in more money in the near future with longer repayment terms?

Laurie Hartley
140 Posted 13/10/2018 at 07:52:29
Eric # 138 - I'll lay you a pound to a penny (big punter me) that they won't fill the dock in.

I think you are on the right track with the Eureka principle though. Roughly speaking I would:

Open the dock gate at high tide.
Close it at low tide.
Seal the dock gates.
Line the dock with concrete.
Sink the pitch as far below the dock wall as possible.
Start building up from there.

Thats my master plan and may I say it is as good as anything else that anyone else has come up with up to now.

David McMullen
143 Posted 13/10/2018 at 10:22:08
Laurie (#140), it should be like the Lucas Oil Stadium with the pitch below ground level. they could also use the dock for underground parking. My request was to have an underground tunnel/road for the team bus to arrive in. It would make the stadium a natural fit for major European finals.

Then Meis said it would be built above the dock back in April.

Laurie Hartley
144 Posted 13/10/2018 at 11:38:02
David #143 – there goes my master plan! The upside is, going by what you say he said in April, that our architect has apparently got one.
David McMullen
145 Posted 13/10/2018 at 11:47:57
I think it's something to do with retaining the dock walls and also the north-south length that it would only fit the pitch so it's effectively built a few feet above ground level. Seems such a waste not to use the dock below the ground level!
Derek Thomas
146 Posted 13/10/2018 at 12:03:57
Lawrie and Michael K. The whole area sits on a bed of Sherwood Sandstone...half the walls and buildings in the Old City were built from it, see the Cathedral or the Sandstone canyons as you come into Lime Street.

The Bramley-Moore Dock walls that house your lock gates must sit on something not too far down, they didn't just plonk them down in the mud. A new survey, a few test bores, even though there are plenty out there will show just what is needed and how far down the bedrock is. (I still can't think of bedrock without thinking Fred Flintstone...) Anyway, I don't think it's too far down for what we'll need in way of adequate foundations.

Tanking it to keep the river out may be where the real problem is.

Oh and the finance.

Ray Roche
147 Posted 13/10/2018 at 12:14:49
Eric@138, Lawrie @140.

Question. How many Greek philosophers does it take to fill a Merseyside dock?
Answers on a postcard to Boys Pen Bill, Kings Dock, Liverpool.

Your Eureka solution requires more philosophers than are readily available I fear.
.

Gary Edwards
148 Posted 13/10/2018 at 12:30:47
Bramley-Moore Dock should prove less challenging than many other new Permier League grounds as it is not in the middle of a heavily populated, urban area. Technical parallels could be drawn with West Ham's stadium.

I hope the designers think outside the box as a very obvious cost and time saving could be realised in modular construction built elsewhere, shipping it in, lift into place, join all the bits together, outfit... et voila — new stadium!!!

It's only an idea but it's far more than what's been presented to date. Stop fucking about and get on with it.

Hire me on a rate comparable to the average wage of the first team and I'll have it ready within 30 months and I'll accept damages for schedule delays.

Tony Everan
149 Posted 13/10/2018 at 12:43:44
Ray

A midfielder like Socrates in his prime would have it filled every week.

Paul Birmingham
150 Posted 13/10/2018 at 12:59:32
Not knowing what's next in terms of any public communications from EFC on this project, this thread and the interest it's generated should have the Bramley-Moore Dock project team primed up for latest update...

It would at least be part of a regular update, even if there is no progress or nothing further to report.

But I sense, until the finance muscle is signed, secured, underwritten etc, it will be a waiting game.

Let's hope lessons learned and the Bramley-Moore Dock project team do the plan and build to full design specifications and make this city a new Venice of the north in context of the potential it could release for the City and City region in terms of industry and tourism and the future.

Great chance to rebrand EFC.

Paul Tran
152 Posted 13/10/2018 at 13:19:35
Funny debate, this. Too many people with too little responsibility & knowledge and little interest in acquiring any knowledge shouting 'Just get on with it!' and berating those in power for not doing the impossible quick enough.

Like many things at the moment, I want those in charge to think about what they're going before doing it well.

Sean Kelly
153 Posted 13/10/2018 at 13:47:22
Would it be called Floodison Park, Laurie?

Sorry...

Derek Taylor
154 Posted 13/10/2018 at 14:07:26
Don't fret, Paul. Nobody at Everton will do anything in a hurry. Usually they take a long time to make a balls-up of it!
Dermot Byrne
155 Posted 13/10/2018 at 14:51:24
I agree, Mr Tran. The irony is that the understandably impatient remember the King's Dock and Destination Kirkby fiascos and want this bloody sorted. Many getting older on TW, so time is the essence!

But for God's sake, get this right. I posted re similar projects at other big clubs earlier with similar timescales and, though I want it tomorrow, most of all, I want it done well.

How long have we been at Goodison Park? Yeah, ages. We will be at the new place a long time too. Let's make that just a step towards a well-planned home that places us where we belong. Right at the heart of the city where we have most fans.

To risk a backlash... again, it is about patience, but, in my view, this time, patience that has a reason for it.

Don Alexander
156 Posted 13/10/2018 at 14:51:51
The Everton/Toffees new definition of the Archimedes Principle (and my apologies to him by the way);

"When a new ground is immersed in a wet hole, whether fully or partially submerged, there is an equal and opposite weight of words that the ground displaces, acting in an upward direction in the manner of hot air."

I'll get me coat.

Tom Bowers
157 Posted 13/10/2018 at 15:00:49
Onwards and upwards.

Everything changes as the existing stuff gets too old so we have to get used to change.

However, be prepared to pay the cost as so often is necessary.

For the older fans, it will be a sad day when Goodison finally goes but the realism is that many top clubs are moving ahead with new or improved stadiums; if Everton hadn't had so many financial woes for many years, they would have probably had a new or newer stadium well before now.

The major concern will be the transformation of the squad into a consistent, competitive entity that will compliment a 21st Century stadium.

Kieran Kinsella
159 Posted 13/10/2018 at 15:40:34
I don't get the 60,000 capacity being pushed by some. Yes, I would prefer to have 60,000 fanatical fans there each week while 80 or 100,000 would be even better but honestly I think 48,000 would probably be a stretch.

Firstly, Everton have never had average gates of 60,000. Even in the 80s, when we were top dogs, we were getting 30,000-ish. Okay, so people will say hooligans drove families away at that time. True, but cheap tickets also enabled many people to go who have been priced out these days.

Secondly, if you look at Sunderland and Man City, there is a cautionary tale. Sunderland were getting 19,000 crowds at Roker Park, that more than doubled with the novelty of the new place but things tapered off pretty quickly. Likewise, I used to live close to Man City's old ground and they'd get a solid 30,000 at that dump but saw that jump about 150% with the new place. Again, it has tapered off.

Right now, our tickets are among the cheapest in the league. I cannot imagine prices dropping if we get a new stadium. A lot of folks already struggle to attend just as prices are now. So potentially we could lose some folks with a new ground.

On the flip side, I hear a lot about the new location being convenient in the city center etc but for whom? Yuppies? Hipsters? People who have enough spare cash to buy a season ticket but will they actually drag their arses out of their luxury lofts to watch Everton v Palace on a dreary winter's day? Corporations?

As you can see at the New Wembley or the Emirates, those types show up if you're top of the league but, otherwise, the seats are left empty – even if the gate receipts show a "sell-out."

I would rather have a packed stadium every week rather than a massive one with 10,000 to 20,000 empty seats every game other than derbies.

Tony Abrahams
160 Posted 13/10/2018 at 16:19:36
You make a lot of sense, Kieran, but until Arsenal and Liverpool made bigger grounds, only 3 clubs in this country had ever averaged over 50,000 for a full season:

Manchester United, Newcastle and Everton were the only 3 clubs, so let's not underestimate our support.

Tony Marsh
161 Posted 13/10/2018 at 16:56:54
Micheal @133,

Exactly, mate, we are not doing any work because, as of yet, this project is merely an idea with no real substance to it. Who is to say Big Joe doesn't get booted out of office and a new regime says No to a stadium on the Dock Road??

The club should of at least have submitted plans by now and know if they would be granted with the finer details of the stadium tweaked here and there once we had the permission. Is that such a ludicrous suggestion? The club should've moved quickly while Joe Anderson is still in power as who knows what lies in wait?

I know of a piece of land on the Wirral were I want to build a mansion that contains a swimming pool, snooker room, sound-proofed cinema and bar. Also tennis courts and a huge driveway with electronic gates. All I need now is planning permission and plans drawn up plus someone to fund it for me but, once I have all of the above, it will be great. Yes, I know it's all fantasy... but we can all dream, can't we??

Alan J Thompson
162 Posted 13/10/2018 at 17:16:49
How I love these sort of humorous and educational pieces, I can't even find "copacetic" in the dictionary.

I do understand "not in my lifetime" but it must be said that is more my fault than any completion date. Wither Tommy Hughes, having a pint with Buckley?

Michael Kenrick
163 Posted 13/10/2018 at 17:53:10
Tony (#161), you look for every opportunity to denigrate this project, which sadly undermines any sense there might be lurking amongst your ramblings.

Your latest ploy – comparing Everton's real plans for a stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock with your fantasy plans for a dream house in Heswall – might sound amusing... but really just continue to demonstrate how your twisting of the truth helps no-one understand the real status of the project, which is of prime interest to most sensible Evertonians.

● Do you have any fiscal interest in the property in question? No. But Everton do as they have negotiated a long-term lease/purshase agreement for the site with the owner, Peel Holdings.

● Have you done anything to check the ground conditions and presence of contaminants? No. But Everton have as they had a site investigation done last December — a very real first step in such a project.

● Have you employed an architect to develop a conceptual plan for the new gaff? No. But Everton have employed one of the best in the business, in Dan Meis.

● Have you had any discussions to seek creative funding that could also benefit the local council as they struggle to find income with their budgets slashed by Westminster? No. But Everton have through their well-publicised discussions with LCC, supported by Joe Anderson.

The plans are real, not fantasy as you foolishly claim, but the finance still needs to be secured. That step is all-important. Until that happens, no plans will be submitted and there is not going to be any further progress on the site. No bags of cement, no hard hats, no fluorescent vests, no draining of the dock, no dismemberment of the wall.

As I've told you before, until the project goes forward, there is always the risk that it will never happen. Even after it starts in earnest, there is always the risk that it never gets completed. But only an idiot takes those risks and converts them into their own reality over and above the truth of what is really going on.

Steven Jones
164 Posted 13/10/2018 at 18:01:01
Don 156 Lovelly …..

Mark these words … Alisher Usmanov is now behind things. Hence the change from the council money thing.

I predict that as Moshiri went and surprised us with the Liver Building – and USM surprised us with the training ground piece…. there is more afoot than procrastination and potential failure.

The delay in my mind is that they are looking to do something more significant with the regeneration of the area and the overall financing is not just the stadium but a big piece of the action for Alisher Usmanov and Farhad Moshiri of the property and regeneration value piece that will come of this.

Taps nose… ;-)

Michael Kenrick
165 Posted 13/10/2018 at 18:08:50
Sorry, Alan (#162), I should not have used that word 'copacetic'. I suspect only Mike Gaynes, Jamie Crowley and other Yanks amongst us will have heard it.

Seems it has a very dubious etymology having been invented obscurely somewhere in The States 100 years ago. Therefore, not a real word. I must stop using it.

Kieran Kinsella
166 Posted 13/10/2018 at 18:13:33
Steven Jones 164

I agree. I don't know much about the construction industry but I do know about the finance industry. Lending is risk based with rates based upon the risk of default. Generally, municipalities e.g. LCC can borrow money much more cheaply that businesses because they can raise taxes or sell municipal assets if the actual project goes south. If a business goes south well that's that for the lenders pretty much save whatever they can extract through bankruptcy proceedings. Consequently, is very unlikely Everton would get a better conventional lending arrangement (e.g. financing from a bank or finance firm) than the one involving LCC. The fact they say they have another option indicates something unconventional e.g. financing involving the owner or his mates e.g. Usmanov since their view of the risk/rewards of a loan as owners/invstors would be decidedly different than the view of risk/reward from a third party lender.

Alan J Thompson
167 Posted 13/10/2018 at 18:38:33
Michael (#165); Many thanks for not telling us English speakers what "copacetic" means. (Never ever mislead us by starting it with a "K").

I've often thought that, if these people are that clever that they would invent a language of their own, which it seems they have, or at least pay a licence fee for using ours.

This is why we have a problem with the likes of the BNP as Africans and West Indians come to the land of Shakespeare speaking proper, understandable English rather than changing pronunciations every 5 or 10 miles (distances we had before Europe).

Any chance we could refer to it as the future dry hole in the ground?

Dermot Byrne
168 Posted 13/10/2018 at 18:40:06
Tony: "this project is merely an idea with no real substance to it. "
Just same old stuff mate.

Some on here believe and others don't. But to say what you say that with bugger all knowledge just seems mad.

MK answered you so well with his real world skills but I will challenge you in our world and with a Q..

Why the hell have you spent years being so negative about our club? Sure, we are not winning what you hope or being what we have been in past decades.

But hell lad, we all want the same but to be like a kid who didn't get all he wanted seems to me to show little understand ing of what 90% of football fans accept.

It is the game.

Tony Marsh
169 Posted 13/10/2018 at 18:49:35
Yes, Micheal, you are 100% correct in everything you say in your last post. So please explain to me why Farhad Moshiri went public 28 months ago on the Stadium issue as though it was a done deal and the bulldozers were on route as he spoke?? Gushing with pride about a facility the fans would be proud of and deserved. A Mickey Mouse artist sketch soon followed. "Great, we are nearly there" we all thought. Why talk of this stadium if we were and still are a million miles away?

Once the Commonwealth Games went elsewhere, there was a distinct shifting of emphasis coming from the club. Elstone coming out with the statement about Bramley-Moore taking longer than we first thought. Then the financial issues being raised even though Big Joe offered to chip in. No planning permission either, though the club may have been given the nod... who knows?

I mean Micheal am I wrong to smell a rat somewhere. Am I being nieve not trusting what comes from the club's top brass?? The phrase "Actions speak with louder than words" comes to mind when I think of this stadium issue. I ask you this one question:

If at the end of this season EFC find itself in the exact same position as we are in now with no progress shown will you still be super confident the stadium will go a head at that location?

I mean how long does taking your time to get things right consist of. It will be 3 years in July 2019 that we first got the news.. The land was purchased way before that date. I would assume after 3 years we would expect a little movement?

Tony Marsh
170 Posted 13/10/2018 at 19:44:35
Dermot, I just want to see it built, mate. No more Kings Dock scenarios, no more Kirkby Tesco sagas.

I thought over 2 years ago we were on our way to building a new stadium yet nothing appears to be happening. The fact they sent that muppet Elstone out with his statement about needing more time seriously dented what little confidence I had.

EFC past history on stadiums is awful. I thought Moshiri had pull and power. I still hope he does... but get the thing built before we all die of old age. I don't know who on here lives in the City but I pass Bramley-Moore Dock about 5 times a week and it looks the same as it did 3, 5, 8 years ago. Take your pick but don't be surprised if it goes tits up. If it was them lot across the park, it would be half-built by now.

Michael Kenrick
171 Posted 13/10/2018 at 19:50:08
"So please explain to me why Farhad Moshiri went public 28 months ago on the Stadium issue as though it was a done deal and the bulldozers were on route as he spoke??"

Tony, as I recall, the first mentions of Everton possibly constructing a new stadium on the north docks appeared as understated rumours in May 2016.

The first mention that it might be Bramley-Moore Dock came in August 2016. Still little more than a rumour. When Moshiri visited it in October 2016, he also went to Stonebridge Cross.

The first utterances from Moshiri were less than 2 years ago: Moshiri promises investment on and off the pitch. Still nothing even close to what you claim you heard. Done deal and bulldozers?!?!? — You are just making it up. As usual.

"Micheal, am I wrong to smell a rat somewhere? Am I being naive not trusting what comes from the club's top brass??"

You can smell a rat to your heart's content. Still doesn't make any of it true or false. Still doesn't give you a free pass to ignore what is actually happening, to continue to claim that, because what you want to see going on at the site is not happening, that it means the whole thing is a sham.

You said one question but then you add another:

"If, at the end of this season, EFC find itself in the exact same position as we are in now with no progress shown, will you still be super confident the stadium will go ahead at that location?"

Firstly, there is progress: you just can't see it. Or you don't want to see it because it upsets your narrative.

Secondly, I've never claimed super confidence about any future event, beyond perhaps the sun coming up in the morning. Don't put words into my mouth.

Thirdly, the stadium will go ahead if it gets funding, and if it gets planning permission. Two big 'ifs'. I'm sure there are other risks that could prevent it from going ahead in this location.

It won't happen until it happens. Not before. Not because someone says "I'm gonna build you a new stadium", snap their fingers, and there it is. A project of this magnitude takes time.

I suspect (as you say) that they had expectations for the Commonwealth Games, and had to readjust (perhaps substantially) when those went away.

The project is delayed. That doesn't mean it's a myth. That doesn't mean it's been cancelled. If it is cancelled, I expect they will tell us. (Although Blue Bill was never exactly honest about the demise of either Kings Dock or Destination Kirkby, so the track record there is badly stained.)

Paul Birmingham
172 Posted 13/10/2018 at 20:00:05
Don, @156, superb analogy, and sums up the mood of Evertonians.

The year is closing fast and in Summary a positioning statement from the club on the Bramley-Moore Dock project would be helpful.

Paul Birmingham
173 Posted 13/10/2018 at 20:20:32
I've said this – if it happens – will be the Evertonian second coming.

It's as big as the parting of the Dead Sea, that's what this means, and after where the club has been, and with a carefully planned finance, security and budget plan and the world's best stadium designer, something seismic will happen on the Banks of The Royal Blue Mersey to make Evertonians, past, present and future, proud and inspired.

The club will move to the promised land, but it will happen when the plans and due diligence is tried, tested and has been signed off by the board, and the club's finance partners.

The club has a great chance to make a marker on English football, based on the location alone. The Everton Phoenix will rise.

I believe this plan, will happen...but the question is When? So we need to put faith in Farhad Moshiri and Co to deliver this plan.

They didn't get the 8th floor of The Royal Liver Building only for the view of Liverpool Bay and the surrounding 40-mile radius, for nothing.

Rob Halligan
174 Posted 13/10/2018 at 20:35:33
Every time somebody within the club utters the words "Bramley-Moore Dock", a new thread starts and the forum goes into utter chaos with the same posts repeated over and over again.

The usual suspects come out with the "it's never going to happen" posts, but with absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back up this statement. All they want to say is Kings Dock and Destination Kirkby, which they think is evidence that Bramley-Moore Dock won't happen.

The majority of us, myself included, hope (or believe) it will happen. We have so far spent a good few million quid, the majority of that on purchasing the site, for it not to happen.

As many have said, and quite rightly, every time someone within the club speaks about Bramley-Moore Dock, it seems to be what we've already been told. Things are going on in the background which we don't know about, and maybe, just maybe, the club don't want to tell us about. What do people want, a daily report published on the official site telling us what happened that day?

I think the best thing for Michael or Lyndon not to do is start another thread about Bramley-Moore Dock until we have clarification that either it goes ahead or is dead in the water.

So, until there is an official announcement from the club saying that Bramley-Moore Dock is no longer going to happen, then I am a firm believer that it will.

Dermot Byrne
175 Posted 13/10/2018 at 20:51:10
"I mean, Micheal, am I wrong to smell a rat somewhere. Am I being naive not trusting what comes from the club’s top brass?? "

Naive? No.

Stuck in a tired negative rut?

Ask yourself, Tony M.

Billy Roberts
176 Posted 13/10/2018 at 23:59:09
Thanks for your welcome Mike Gaynes,

A very strange thing occurred on this thread, I noticed Michael used the term " a whole bunch of " and I thought that's a very American expression?? For a scouser? And then after following the thread I realised after following TW for a couple of years that Michael is indeed American!!!

Obviously reading TW half pissed hasn't helped my Sherlock Holmes skills, as for the Bramley-Moore Dock area being a shithole, it hasn't deterred the massive regeneration of the old tobacco / heritage market area has it? They are continuing with gusto on that project aren't they undaunted by the shitholiness of the area.

Laurie Hartley
177 Posted 14/10/2018 at 06:30:20
Don # 156 - you got a smile out of me with that post but I am sure if they could build the Mersey Tunnel in 1928 with the old technology the draining and tanking of Bramley Moore dock can't be that hard a proposition 90 years later.

On a more serious note, my personal view is that to fill any of the docks in on either side of the river is an act of vandalism.

My reasons for saying this are threefold.

1. The men who planned and engineered this dock system were not only brilliant but had a vision. Qualities that are sadly lacking in many quarters in these days having been replaced by greed disguised as economic rationalism.

2. The contribution of the men who provided the muscle and sweat, and no doubt in some cases lost their lives, to do the actual construction work. Liverpool Maritime Musem (No relation)

3. The dock system is a big part of the heritage of the people of Merseyside and something to be proud of.

For anyone who doubts the last comment and also for the benefit Mike Gaynes and our other American Evertonians friends, here's is a quote from Herman Melville your great writer and poet who was also a seafarer:

"For more than six weeks, the ship Highlander lay in Prince's Dock; and during that time, besides making observations upon things immediately around me, I made sundry excursions to the neighbouring docks, for I never tired of admiring them.

Previous to this, having only seen the miserable wooden wharves, and slip-shod, shambling piers of New York, the sight of these mighty docks filled my young mind with wonder and delight..."

Despite the fact that I haven't lived on Merseyside for 45 years, I would like to see the waterfront and dock systems on both sides of the river restored to their former glory.

Wouldn't the images depicted in this article be a grand outcome?

Revised £5 Billion Liverpool Waters Plan

Tony Abrahams
179 Posted 14/10/2018 at 08:52:22
Billy @176, stay half bevied mate. I would say that Liverpool's best hotel is already in this area and the way they've transformed the fantastic Titanic hotel, with the awe-inspiring tobacco warehouse also well on its way, will only help confirm that only the capital can compare with Liverpool when it comes to great and historic buildings.

I don't know much, I am practically useless when it comes to even knocking a nail in the wall, but I've marvelled over this part of the docks from the day Everton were linked with a move to this part of the city.

The scope is unbelievable, helped no end because it's the gateway to the city by water, and to be given a blank canvass so to speak, I can only imagine that the outcome could become magnificent, and the days of reading that we are not the capital will also become a thing of the past.

This site is that good, it's fucking frightening, and although us Evertonians are in a rush, I'd say to the planners to take their time because, for anyone involved, this really is the chance of many lifetimes to turn Liverpool back into one of the great European cities, without even a hint of exaggeration. Honestly!

Eric Myles
180 Posted 14/10/2018 at 09:19:25
Laurie #177 Revised £5 Billion Liverpool Waters Plan

That's not our new pitch in the last photo is it?

Laurie Hartley
181 Posted 14/10/2018 at 09:38:21
Eric - you have an eye for detail! and a sense of humour but no it isn't; our pitch is inside that big square thingy in the bottom left of the second picture.

Meanwhile at the other end of the project it seems a subsidiary of the Chinese government (and they have got money) are starting work.

The Lexington

Tony Abrahams
182 Posted 14/10/2018 at 11:58:55
Tip of the iceberg, Laurie, but I think you more than most people already know this, mate!
John G Davies
183 Posted 14/10/2018 at 13:13:16
Anyone who thinks the ground isn't happening...

Try to buy a bit of land in the area, see what is available.

Good luck.

Ray Said
184 Posted 14/10/2018 at 14:11:52
Michael (#171). you say that rumours around the construction of a stadium in the North Docks started in 2016 – I posted on this in 2012 when the first rumours around Peel, the council and EFC trying to sort a deal first arose:

Peel Holdings.

Peel, and then leader of the council and now Mayor, Joe Anderson, spent a significant amount of time trying to get Kenwright to get involved but it was only when Moshiri bought in to the club that money was committed. If Kenwright had gotten engaged – and my information is that a meeting was arranged but, as usual, he wanted Peel and LCC to do this as an act of charity and fund, build and then hand it over to him – then we would be much further along.

Tony Abrahams
185 Posted 14/10/2018 at 14:20:42
Out of order blaming "Blue Bill" for anything, Ray, he saved us from oblivion, and is only going to come out of this with his saviour status enhanced!
Ray Said
186 Posted 14/10/2018 at 14:37:53
Tony (#185), it's apparent to most people (not all though) that this docklands development is of such scope and potential that it's hard not to be critical of a man who failed to grasp that, by being involved, he could transform the club forever.

Small-minded, no vision and wants everything on a plate for free. The sort of feller that sidles up in the pub, leeches on, becomes your 'new best friend' so he can get bevvied all night on your money, then claim he did you a favour by letting you listen to his war stories.

John G Davies
187 Posted 14/10/2018 at 17:28:22
A very narrow-minded man, Bill Kenwright.

No vision, no get up and go for it, no ambition.

No denying he has held this club back.

Michael Kenrick
188 Posted 14/10/2018 at 17:28:27
Good recollection, Ray. For a long while, following the ignominious demise of Destination Kirkby – a really shocking episode of incompetence and deliberate obfuscation by Boys Pen Bill and his 'team' – the club seemed to hunker down on the whole stadium conundrum, refusing to countenance redevelopment of Goodison Park while they searched in vain for a sugar daddy to put it on a plate, as you say.

Then along came Farhad and everything changed... Or did it? I think the one gobbing off out of school has been Joe Anderson, and his now infamous promise that there will be an announcement "In a couple of months" — that was in August of last year... No wonder people are frustrated and impatient, but £500M is a lot of money to find.

Dave Williams
189 Posted 14/10/2018 at 18:48:17
It will happen. Why would Farhad sell his shares in Arsenal to invest in a top 8 club unless he wanted to make it into a top 4 club?

Why would Usmanov raise £500m by selling Arsenal shares which he had held for years – he hardly needs the cash does he?

Why restructure the board to get stadium and financial expertise in place if it is pie in the sky?

Is the reason for a lack of information from the club merely one of best practice in any large business deal? I have never known any of my clients publicise details of a development until everything is secured. We have vilified the previous board members for promising Kings Dock and then failing to deliver – maybe the board has learned from that and is far too professional in its experience of high worth projects to start telling the world what it is hoping to achieve?

Tom Evans
190 Posted 14/10/2018 at 18:53:16
Of all the challenges facing the project, the one I fear the least is the draining of the dock and filling it in.

Here in Hull, I witnessed the same exercise take place when Hull's Alexander Dock was acquired by Siemens for their blade factory. A larger scale event compared to Bramley-Moore Dock and accomplished with aplomb by those fiendish Dutch.

Bill Watson
191 Posted 14/10/2018 at 19:02:26
Tom #190,

Draining the dock should be a relatively simple part of the project.

The Edwardian engineers drained the George's Docks and the three building were still there last time I went past!!

John Keating
192 Posted 14/10/2018 at 19:12:47
Tom/Bill
I think we will find that the least of the problems will be draining the drydock. Seen it done countless times in various places of the world.

The older docks linings are sometimes in poor repair so once drained as long as the linings are double checked and the lock gates are reinforced and deeply backed up that should be it.

As for most major new builds, the initial piling and supports are most critical; after that, it's just a building.

Lawrence Green
193 Posted 14/10/2018 at 19:43:16
Sorry for posting what many readers will already have known, but it is interesting to see that Mayor Joe has been possibly the most outspoken person regarding Everton's proposed move from Goodison- but by Everton's standards the move to BMD is still in its infancy!


16 September 2014 - Everton 'can plan for stadium move', Liverpool City Council says

Liverpool mayor Joe Anderson said the stadium plan for Walton Hall Park would be a "catalyst" to spark regeneration in the nearby area. A council spokesman said it and the club would create "a new, vibrant and sustainable neighbourhood".Club chairman Bill Kenwright said the chance to build "a minute away from our beloved Goodison" was too good to miss.The council spokesman said the decision to develop the park followed "an exhaustive search for suitable sites within the city".

Mr Kenwright said that "for several years" he had thought building the new stadium at Walton Hall Park "ticks all the boxes". "It could be something very special for our city, the residents of north Liverpool and all Evertonians. "Of course, there's an enormous amount of work to do [which] involves fixing a huge financial jigsaw, but we are certain it's an opportunity we should pursue with great commitment, endeavour and ambition."


16 May 2016 - Everton have abandoned plans to build a new stadium in the Walton Hall Park area of Liverpool.

The club hoped to move from Goodison Park and build a larger, purpose-built ground. But with their plans for Walton Hall Park based on retail investment in the area ultimately deemed too ambitious - with objections to the scheme also raised by local protesters - the plan has been scrapped. "Liverpool City Council and Everton Football Club can confirm they have been working together over recent months to investigate alternative plans for a new stadium for Everton Football Club," the two bodies said in a joint-statement.

"However, through the work that the club and the council have done, we have concluded that effectively building a new village in north Liverpool with lots of retail space is a step too far in this current economic climate. "On the subject of the park itself, I can now say that the park will remain a park and will be designated as such in our Local Plan, which will be out for consultation this summer." Mayor Anderson later told BBC Radio Merseyside: "I'm confident the new stadium will be up and running in three years."

Robert Elstone, chief executive of Everton, said: "Our work with the council, particularly over the last few months, has been positive and progressive. "While our work evaluating the alternatives is at an early stage, we are hopeful that the new sites provide us with a much more straightforward, deliverable opportunity to build a new stadium."

05 January 2017 - Everton reveal Bramley Moore Dock as preferred stadium site

Everton's preferred site for its proposed new stadium is Bramley Moore Dock, the club has confirmed. The issue was discussed by shareholders at the club's annual general meeting at the Philharmonic Hall on Wednesday. Liverpool mayor Joe Anderson said the council would invest £20m in a new road near the planned ground, alongside plans for a railway station. He said the proposals were the "most exciting opportunity that the club has had in decades".

Tony Abrahams
194 Posted 14/10/2018 at 21:01:40
I can't believe your post never had the line off Kenwright about driving past Walton Hall Park on the way to every Everton home game, Lawrence!

Dermot Byrne
195 Posted 17/10/2018 at 18:39:30
Dermot Byrne
196 Posted 17/10/2018 at 19:38:54
Different owners, Lawrence... so I have heard.
Tony Abrahams
197 Posted 18/10/2018 at 19:11:28
Just been getting told today that the plans for this massive project are going to stretch from town to Miller's Bridge.

If this is true, it's not going to be huge, it's going to be absolutely gigantic. I've heard a new train station is going opposite the old Heritage Market, which is going to be some building once it's brought back to life.

I just hope Everton get brought back to life as well!

Steve Ferns
198 Posted 18/10/2018 at 19:15:57
Tony, that's Liverpool Waters. It's a £5,500,000,000 project run by Peel Holdings. Where you been the last 10 years?

https://www.liverpoolwaters.co.uk

Tony Abrahams
199 Posted 18/10/2018 at 19:24:25
Waiting for Everton, Steve, waiting for Everton!
Tony Abrahams
200 Posted 18/10/2018 at 19:27:21
I might not have much to steal, Steve, but that’s a bad site you’re trying to send me to there mate!
Steve Ferns
201 Posted 18/10/2018 at 19:34:22
Wikipedia Instead?
Brent Stephens
202 Posted 18/10/2018 at 19:59:26
Dermot #195 that Echo piece gives two quotes from Rotheram that I can't reconcile (and both sound strange):

"Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram says public transport links WILL be included in plans for Everton's new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock - and says he hopes the scheme will have planning permission by 2020".

Possibly no planning permission until 2020?

"In 2020 we will have a spatial development strategy which means that the metro mayor takes responsibility then for a lot more of those planning issues. We expect that Everton will have a ground before then, so it will have gone through the current regime."

A new ground BEFORE 2020?

Am I misreading this?

Tony Abrahams
203 Posted 18/10/2018 at 20:12:28
I thought that when I read it, Brent, but something in the way Rotherham spoke, made me feel like he didn't know as much about this whole project, as he maybe should do?

Steve, I knew about Peel's plans, but I didn't expect this regeneration to go all the way to Miller's Bridge mate, and I can't see anything on those Wikipedia pages about this either?

I heard today that the land has been bought opposite the Titanic hotel, and three new tower blocks are going to be built besides the canal.

As I've said before, Anfield was a shit-hole when Everton left but, judging by all these plans, we are gonna go back to what John Motson once described as the affluent Everton!

Lawrence Green
204 Posted 19/10/2018 at 09:16:42
I can see why the Echo's piece may have led some to believe that 2020 was a significant date in the diary of Everton's ground move – but in fact it is just a date that happens to coincide with a change of responsibilities for the Metro Mayors.

Assuming that Everton submit a planning application way before 2020 – and it is passed – then Rotherham will be correct in asserting that Everton FC will have a new ground by 2020 – not ready to use but in the process of being built.


Steve Rotherham, speaking at a Liverpool city region delegation at the Mipim UK property conference in London today, Rotherham is quoted by the Liverpool Echo as saying that he doesn't expect to have to deal with planning applications before it could be affected by the spatial development strategy.

He said, “At the moment that still lies with the local authority and the Secretary of State. In 2020 we will have a spatial development strategy which means that the metro mayor takes responsibility then for a lot more of those planning issues.

“We expect that Everton will have a ground before then, so it will have gone through the current regime.”

Brent Stephens
205 Posted 19/10/2018 at 10:30:18
Yes, Lawrence, sloppy wording.

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