Moyes says he was 'very close' to rejoining Everton

by   |   25/03/2022  116 Comments  [Jump to last]

Citing a gushing interview with Alan Shearer, published in The Athletic, this headline in the Daily Mail says “David Moyes reveals he was 'very close' to re-joining Everton before taking his second chance at West Ham.”

I was puzzled by the timeline: West Ham sacked Moyes in May 2018, just when Moshiri finally secured the services of Marco Silva after a long battle with Watford.

Silva was at Everton for the next 18 months while Moyes was back at the Hammers within 6 months. So when exactly was he 'very close' to re-joining Everton?

I can't recall Moyes being in the hat for getting his old job back at that time. We all knew (a) Allardyce was gone as soon as the 2017-18 season ended, and (b) Moshiri had fought Watford tooth and nail to get Silva.

Of course I'm not allowing for the distinct possibility that gushing Bill Kenwright would have done his utmost to disrupt the Silva appointment and get Moyes back to his spiritual home… hence Moyes thinking he was "very, very close" to returning.

But I think we know they were both delusional.

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Jim Bennings
1 Posted 27/03/2022 at 14:09:33
At the time of appointing Carlo Ancelotti we would have all scoffed at appointing Moyes.

However hindsight is a wonderful thing and frankly I'd have taken Moyes back before we brought Allardyce in back in 2017.

He's not a championship winning manager Moyes but he's a fantastic day to day manager that gets his team's well organised and has a good eye for a transfer as he's proven at West Ham.

John Raftery
2 Posted 27/03/2022 at 17:59:31
I imagine the closest Moyes came to returning was in December 2019. Moyes, who was out of work at the time, was mentioned as a possible candidate immediately after Silva was sacked following the 5-2 derby defeat on 4th December. Arteta was another name being touted. As we know Ancelotti was appointed, Arteta went to Arsenal in the same week and Moyes subsequently returned to West Ham just before the end of December 2019.

The return of Moyes would have been greeted with dismay by some but I doubt we would be in the pickle we are in currently. Who knows, we might even be enjoying a run in the Europa League and the luxury of a place in the top half of the table. Instead we can enjoy the thrill of a relegation battle.

Danny O’Neill
3 Posted 27/03/2022 at 18:11:53
No thank you.

Moyes done a good job at Everton. He stabilised us and got us to the brink of achieving something but didn't have the ability to take us that step further.

For those who claim what he could have done with money and funds, well he proved that after Everton with some spectacular failures including a relegation.

Even now with his second West Ham coming, although doing well, he is doing what he does; when expectation is on, he plays it down to detract from actually trying to win something.

He's a decent manager for a club that doesn't expect to win anything. If that's what you want, he's your man.

We're related by the way. Our Grandfathers were brothers.

Clive Rogers
4 Posted 27/03/2022 at 19:03:14
Danny, #3, you have summed it up precisely for me. I would only add that some of his tactics were ridiculous and he always veered towards defensive negativity.
Frank Sheppard
5 Posted 27/03/2022 at 19:04:42
Going back rarely works, which is a shame. Moyes was brilliant for us.I think his many detractors on this site are OTT in their vitriol to wards him.
Was he perfect No.
Is he is our best manager by a country mile since Kendall mark 1- Yes.
Brian Murray
6 Posted 27/03/2022 at 19:06:36
Moyes epitomised Everton at the time. He loved and embraced a glass ceiling along with his mate upstairs brainwashing a generation of fans that we should just be grateful to be plucky with the odd big result in 20 against the top four. I have no time for the fella, to be honest.
Danny O’Neill
7 Posted 27/03/2022 at 19:08:07
I'd challenge that with Joe Royle, Frank.

If only the board would have backed him.

There lies the eternal problem at Everton. We keep blaming managers.

Danny O’Neill
8 Posted 27/03/2022 at 19:26:33
The argument I have with my brother and the lost generation, Brian. They accept 6th as success. That's what the Kenwright and Moyes years done to a generation of fans

Not me. We're Everton. Believe it and realise it. Everton Football Club. 9 times league champions. 10 before my time is done. If anything because I don't like odd numbers!!

Brian Murray
9 Posted 27/03/2022 at 19:54:43

A week as they say is a long time in politics and the same for football if the right calls are made on and off the pitch. That's what's so sad and frustrating with this club.

Okay, we can't get back that half a billion but, with proper scouting (Purdy anyone?) we could rise again. I honestly think this club is terrified of success so employ safe people who don't ask questions.

Danny O’Neill
10 Posted 27/03/2022 at 20:11:38
Yes-men, Brian. And those who do question or challenge are moved on.

Change the culture. Leave the nostalgia to fools like me!

See you at West Ham or United?

Brian Murray
11 Posted 27/03/2022 at 20:28:17
Danny, I remember going on my own to West Ham early in season 85 (the special trains and Eddie Cavanagh was a steward, believe it or not ), Inchy goal and a one-nil win but I just somehow knew when Peter Reid with 10 minutes left put his foot on the ball as if to say this game is ours.

Might not sound too dramatic but I knew we was on the verge of something special. Just needs belief and some inspired shrewd signings it could happen again.

Tony Abrahams
12 Posted 27/03/2022 at 21:01:42
Just reading on the Echo website that it's 10 years today since we beat Sunderland in the FA Cup quarter-final replay. I can say, hand on heart, that it's one of the “few” great memories I've got from watching Everton over the last 27 years.

I hope Moyes wins in Europe for the West Ham fans, but I came out of the Stadium of Light on that fantastic warm night, after being amongst one of the best Everton crowds I've ever witnessed (6200 according to the Echo) and I had a feeling that the only way we could lose to Liverpool was if we beat ourselves, and that's exactly what we did.

It took me a long while to get over that Semi-final defeat, but the last couple of weeks have also been horrible, and I'm just praying the international break is not the calm before the storm.

Danny, Number 10 would be the biggest achievement by any football club in English football. I might be biased, but imagine being the only club to win the English Championship in three different centuries? It really would be something special that.

Robert Tressell
13 Posted 27/03/2022 at 21:05:40
Brian # 11. Unfortunately it will not just take a few inspired signings for us to compete for trophies / top 4 again.

We are miles off and our worrying losses mean we couldn't invest even if we have the money.

With careful planning and a bit of luck we could make an assault on the top 4 in about 3 years.

It will absolutely not happen just by picking up the new Reid, Gray and Power.

Newcastle are likely to finish above us this season and have untold riches - and even they won't make the top 4 next season.

Without untold riches we need patience and careful planning. There us no shortcut.

Brian Denton
14 Posted 27/03/2022 at 21:43:10
Tony Abrahams (12) Villa could beat us to that; even Sunderland are as likely to!
Michael Kenrick
15 Posted 27/03/2022 at 22:39:39
I think you're right, John @2, it must be in reference to the shenanigans before Ancelotti was appointed, in December 2019. Moyes was not reappointed at West Ham until 29 December 2019, fully 18 months after he left them in May 2018, not the 6 months I thought I read in the article.

That makes more sense as there was strong talk that Kenwright wanted Moyes back at that time, but did not get his way with Moshiri.

Paul Birmingham
16 Posted 27/03/2022 at 22:59:49
Hi Brian, good call out, I was on that train and what a day.

Eddie was larger than life, banter, wit and in the day on some away games he was wearing that Soviet style hat, from Callans, Whitechapel, the army surplus shop, long since gone.

Great result and some great memories of the journey down, getting to the ground the old West Ham Supporters Club, before the game, after the game, and much more.

Shocking that such days have become almost a once a season event if at all, in terms of results, but the Everton away support is second to none, over the decades, and the current squad need to try and connect more with the fans and what it means to support Everton.

Barry Hesketh
17 Posted 27/03/2022 at 23:22:24
Tony @12
An incredible evening in Sunderland, I used to go away all of the time in my twenties and thirties, but that trip to the Stadium of Light was one of the very few I attended in the last 20 years, but I can't remember an atmosphere like it for Evertonians outside of a semi-final or final.

Man U in 1983 at Old Trafford, it was good, even though we lost, a few others, perhaps White Hart Lane in 1985, was as loud but Sunderland that night was exceptional, it was like we'd transported Goodison to the North East. You can sense the buzz of the Everton crowd, on the link below. A few Sunderland fans say it is the best away crowd they had seen at the Stadium of Light.


Classic Evertons

Laurie Hartley
18 Posted 28/03/2022 at 08:49:07
One thing I will say about Moyes - he signed a lot of players who had character: Martin, Howard, Cahill, Distin, Arteta, Coleman, Yobo, Carsley, Lescott, Mcbride, Donovan to name but a few.

They may not have been the most skilful players to ever pull on the shirt but they always gave it everything they had. No show ponies in that lot.

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
19 Posted 28/03/2022 at 09:00:46
Those saying that we would win nothing with Moyes are totally right. If he was still here we would be regular top half of the table but never ever challenging for the title.

At least with him gone we have a chance. We could get the League 1 title in 2023-24 and maybe a trip to Wembley in 2025 for the Championship playoff and the trophy that comes with it. If he was still here – forget it, we would still be in the middle of the Premier League.

Sean Roe
20 Posted 28/03/2022 at 09:41:29
I would've taken him back like a shot. As others have stated, the team would at least have been well drilled, hard-working and fit. We also wouldn't have ended up with 5 new players in January who have added absolutely nothing to the team.
Matt Hunter
21 Posted 28/03/2022 at 09:46:49
I think, because the club is in such a horrible mess, people remember Moyes as better than he was. He benefits because for years before he arrived we were an absolute joke and since he left we've been a joke.

Moyes himself though is a loser and always will be. I don't mean that in a nasty way because I like him. He just will never win anything and will always come up short because the lacks he key qualities to be win trophies. Tactically he is short and most important of all he doesn't have the bottle when the big moments come.

I remember off the top of my head losing 7-0 to Arsenal, 6-1 and 4-1 at home (×2) to Arsenal. 4-0 at home to Bolton. 4-1 at home to Blackburn in the cup. 1-0 in the cup to Shrewsbury. Also all the times we went to certain grounds just to "get out alive" his win record at certain grounds is non-existent.

I remember in particular the semi-final against a dreadful, dreadful, out of form and confidence Liverpool side and going 1-0 up, Moyes on the touchline sucked the life and belief out of his players with his tactics.

I remember a semi-final against Man Utd with a different manager (not popular on here) with the score 1-1 and I saw with my own eyes, Martinez waving his players forward and going for the win the result was we despite having a makeshift team should have won that game if not for Stones and Lukaku we would have. Contrast between someone who wants to win and someone who is trapped in fear.

Moyes is now doing a good job at West ham but anyone who watched West ham play Kidderminster could see the old Moyes unable to instruct his team to simply pass the ball quicker and getting lucky in not losing to a non-league team.

Everton is a massive massive football club. Men like Kenwright and Moyes transformed the image of the football club into a small club. Very sad and actually that is one of the biggest problems with this club: 20+ years of having our true identity ruined.

Danny O’Neill
22 Posted 28/03/2022 at 10:00:56
Interesting reading the comments. It will always be a debate amongst the generations.

I agree, he gave us back a bit of pride. His teams worked hard and were mostly disciplined. But we had some shockers on his watch too. I know it wasn't the worst score line, but that 4-0 at Highbury on the last day of the season when the poor Evertonian fell asleep and was caught on camera for a global audience. That was bad.

In some ways, there are parallels to the nearly team of the 70s who never quite got there but are often remembered fondly by that generation despite winning nothing. Not in style or anything like that, just in how that era is remembered.

It depends what you want. I was brought up listening about the 60s. League titles and FA Cup triumph. I watched us win 2 league titles, an FA Cup, go close to the double twice and win our only European Trophy to date. Narrowly missing out on a historic treble of League, FA Cup and European glory and regular appearances at Wembley before the semi finals were held there.

That I am afraid is my benchmark. And that won't change regardless. I am not being told that we are fortunate enough if we finish 6th and are a nice club. No-one – Moyes or whoever – can play my expectations down for Everton. That is acceptance and appeasement to those who want you to believe it.

Brian Denton
23 Posted 28/03/2022 at 11:08:44
Just tootling about and discover that City will overtake Villa's number of Titles if they win this season, and be just one behind us.

All bar two of City's Titles have been won since 2011.

Proud history.

Christopher Timmins
24 Posted 28/03/2022 at 11:25:48
Folks in fairness to Moyes, he improved on the position he inherited from Walter Smith and, despite spending huge amounts of money after his departure, we find ourselves in a worse position today.

Let's move on, we have two mega important away games coming up that will determine the seriousness of our position going into a series of games against some of the Top Six teams. We need to maintain our current advantage over Burnley heading into those games.

Tony Abrahams
25 Posted 28/03/2022 at 12:33:47
Thank you Barry, mate. I’ve felt really down with Everton these last ten days, (I could say a lot fuckin longer, but I don’t want to sound dramatic!) and that’s the first positive thing I’ve seen about Everton, since Iwobi scored against Newcastle.

The fans wanted Liverpool, the players gave us Liverpool, and I left their stadium that night with a picture of a harp with the word “believe” from the Guinness advert, already ingrained into my mind, because not one Evertonian was scared of Liverpool, but David Moyes and his players were to scared to beat them unfortunately.

I’m certain Sunderland moved the away fans into the gallows, not longer after that Barry, I think Chelsea moved the fans away from the side, behind the dugout, not longer after Mouriniho, asked how come 3000 Evertonians, could make more noise than the rest of the ground, even though Chelsea were top of the league, on MOTD.

I’m sick of this Everton team, who isn’t? But after watching that video Barry, I’ve decided I’m going to West Ham this Sunday. The chips might be down, but that’s exactly the time to stand up and be counted, and I just hope the players can realize this, because Everton’s future is at stake.

Danny O’Neill
26 Posted 28/03/2022 at 12:39:05
Give me a shout when you hit town on Sunday, Tony. I will be Stratford bound too.
Christine Foster
27 Posted 28/03/2022 at 13:04:32
Tony, 29# this season has been one of the worst I can remember, and you're right, the past few weeks I have been in such a funk about the club I began wondering if I needed anti depressants!
It's even been hard coming on ToffeeWeb, and I know it's bad when I don't want to bother even commenting. I thought I would write a couple of articles as it's something I used to do a fair amount of some time back, even wrote a couple, but I wondered what was the point? But I am slowly turning it around, I could no more turn my back on the blues than accept Moyes back! So enjoy West Ham, my voice will be shouting as well at the other end of the world, 3 points and I guarantee you will hear me!
Steve Shave
28 Posted 28/03/2022 at 13:45:05
Not having a personal dig at anyone in particular, I think the anti-Moyes brigade are still living in the past. Did our previous success (especially in the 80's) mean that having a manager who was happy to "settle" for 5th/6th was unpalatable to us, yes! However, it isn't the 80's and we are a basket case of a club.

Many didn't realise what we had in Moyes for many of the above mentioned reasons. He brought grit, professionalism, stability and determination to our club. He made us punch above our weight. I would like to point out that he has real affection for the club, I especially wish to point out that all of his achievements had been on a shoe-string budget.

Moyes can pick a signing, we all know it, he researches thoroughly and character is everything to him. I suspect Moshiri would be considerably closer to his dream if he had appointed Moyes several years ago.

Tony Abrahams
29 Posted 28/03/2022 at 13:55:44
That took me back to Barry Horne’s goal, Christine, when I was on the other side of the world, listening on the world service radio, and whilst they were going round the grounds, the thunderous noise, alongside the famous words (to me) there’s been a goal at Goodison, (confirmation for me!) and I went absolutely berserk, lost the station for about five minutes, and told someone who I’d woke up, to fucking shut-up and get back to sleep!

I finally found the station, but when Stuart scored, I couldn’t move a muscle in case I lost the station again, but I made-Shaw I woke the house up again, once I knew we were safe🙏

Barry Rathbone
30 Posted 28/03/2022 at 13:59:27
The monumental gamble of appointing Benitez could at least be justified by his trophy-laden CV and reputation for taking no nonsense. He represented acknowledgement that root-and-branch surgery was/is required to embrace ambition.

It didn't work out because sometimes it just doesn't… but Moyes!!!!! The king of trophyless, mid-table nothingness.

Just what we deserve!!! 😂😂😂

Ken Kneale
31 Posted 28/03/2022 at 14:06:02
Steve 28 - what way did Moyes make us punch above our weight? That is a ridiculous assertion to make.

Have a look at some of Danny's points on this thread and go research some bits about English football - you will find Moyes was the first Everton manager ever who was not challenged - was allowed to stay in post for over a decade without a trophy (no other Everton manager in history had such an easy run) and with his chairman, perpetuated the narrative about 'plucky little Everton'.

Add to this his disgraceful exit and subsequent behaviour towards Everton and it shows the true measure of the man - mediocre coach ahd charletan in my view

Michael Lynch
32 Posted 28/03/2022 at 14:29:50
Steve @28, I tend to agree, but when Moshiri came in he thought he could push us to the next level with investment. Moyes wouldn't have been the right manager for that scenario. Sadly, the club has been so badly run, and obviously been a bit unlucky too, that Moshiri's dream is over - if it was ever a reality.

To break into the the top four/six now is almost impossible. We've missed our chance and, like every club bar Citteh, the RS and Chelsea, we'll be lucky to pick up one cup trophy over the next 20 years however good we are. The PL is now a cross between the Scottish league and the Spanish league - a closed shop at the top.

So, right now, Moyes looks a fantastic option for any PL club outside the Sky lot. He was right for us when he arrived here, he wasn't right for us when we were making our ill-fated tilt for the top, he'd be right for us now as we adjust to our place in the pecking order.

Jay Harris
33 Posted 28/03/2022 at 15:27:45
We have to give Moyes credit for instilling what we are lacking now that is culture.

He instilled a sense of unity throughout the club even down to the tea ladies. He received next to no backing in the transfer market and therefore imo he performed heroics during the early Kenwright regime.

However the manner of his leaving and subsequent put downs of our club means for me he should never be allowed near the place again.

I don't know why we are even discussing him but I suppose it takes our minds off the dreadful position we are in.

Danny O’Neill
34 Posted 28/03/2022 at 15:54:05
Never say never Michael. I guess City would have said that 20 years ago and Chelsea 30 years ago.

Talk about throwing the towel in and accepting.

Not I.

Kevin Prytherch
35 Posted 28/03/2022 at 16:02:13
Ken 31 - a net transfer spend of around £25m over 11 years and the 2nd most consecutive top 8 finishes in our history (8 consecutive years).

I’d say that was punching above our weight, wouldn’t you?

Barry Hesketh
36 Posted 28/03/2022 at 16:32:20
Even in the turbulent times since Moyes left, Everton achieved 8th place or better for four of the eight seasons in that period. Admiteddly we've lost the plot in recent years and would snatch off somebody's hand for 8th or better.

There's a local club which hasn't finished outside of the top 8 in over sixty years - that's what Everton should at the very least aspire to, and the Moyes years should have been a temporary blip in our historical ambitions but that period is rapidly becoming the template for many, if nothing says the decline of a football club and Everton in particular, the pining for the Moyes years shouts it loud and clear.

Ken Kneale
37 Posted 28/03/2022 at 16:49:16
Kevin - it sounds more like accepting the mediocrity of Kenwright and Moyes as the club's new identity to me

Everton are heavyweights punching well below their weight and it suited Moyes and Kenwright to say otherwise to fit in with their own limited abilities and complete lack of ambition.

Michael Lynch
38 Posted 28/03/2022 at 17:09:50
Danny, the City and Chelsea scenario can't be repeated because of FFP rules, and next season's salary cap at 70% of turnover.

It's not throwing in the towel, it's facing reality. I'm hopeful we might one day win a cup - the league cup or FA cup - and maybe qualify for a European competition again. But we're so far away from challenging for the Top 4 let alone the title, that it's impossible to imagine a scenario in which that becomes a possibility. Not in my lifetime anyway. The next club to have a go at it will be Newcastle, and maybe they'll have better luck that we did since Moshiri arrived. I doubt it though.

Kevin Prytherch
39 Posted 28/03/2022 at 17:16:42
Ken 37 - I’mnot saying it’s acceptable to see consecutive 8th place finishes and no trophy’s as success for a club of our size - it isn’t acceptable. I also wouldn’t say it’s a template for success, although I do think it’s a good template for recruitment.

Everton, as a club, punched below their weight, Moyes, however, undoubtedly did punch above his weight with the resources he had.

Steve Shave
40 Posted 28/03/2022 at 17:17:47
Ken, I disagree. I think Moyes would have spent wisely and well, even if buying a better calibre of player. It's so easy for you to say he went unchallenged despite the lack of trophies. There is a reason for that, it's because he was given buttons to spend. He over achieved, as did we, for ages. He left and apart from one season under Martinez we've been shit ever since.
Tony Abrahams
41 Posted 28/03/2022 at 17:29:35
So it’s all about top 8 finishes nowadays? We are without a trophy for 27 years and counting, because Kenwright, was allowed to drum down Everton, and this was all allowed to happen because of us, Evertonians.

How we celebrated being the best of the rest, Moyes even received a hero’s welcome before he departed for Manchester United. This was a job he got because he did a great job for himself, and especially for our Chairman, but nobody could ever convince me, that David Moyes did a great job for Everton fc.

John Raftery
42 Posted 28/03/2022 at 17:40:37
Moyes left us in a much better state than he found us. Collectively and despite significant expenditure Martínez, Koeman, Allardyce, Silva, Ancelotti and Benitez have taken us on a downward spiral to our lowest ebb since 1998. It remains to be seen if the fans’ choice, Lampard, can arrest the decline. The next month will tell us.
Tony Twist
43 Posted 28/03/2022 at 17:49:25
Moyes was an excellent manager, he brought a bit of pride back to the club and it is good that he still has feelings for the club and it's supporters. Let's face it, having BK as his boss must have been some handicap. Never go back, seems to be doing alright at West Ham. The best of luck to him. He would have been more than good enough to right this pathetic excuse of a football club. Everton are a shambles, let's hope that Lampard has had time to reflect and see where he is failing also, the players are generally to blame but he ain't squeaky clean himself. If he doesn't change his ways then we will have done well to avoid the drop by the end of the season.
Danny O’Neill
44 Posted 28/03/2022 at 17:56:16
Michael, I'm as much a realist as the next person.

But football, like life is cyclic. Why can we not expect to rise again? I follow this club as I have done all my life waiting for the next trophy and league title.

Just as I did when I played, I played to win. I support Everton to win. I'll accept reality at a point in time, but I'll never accept mediocracy for Everton over time.

"Everton expects success. We've a very good crowd and our crowd are very loyal. But of course they pay money and expect to see us do well. If we don't do well then something should be done about it and something will be done about it".

Before my time but fine words from Sir John Moores that totally resonate with me. How we could do with that mentality at board room level now and over the past decades.

Before this becomes a "this manager v that manager" debate, the manager is not the problem at Everton. It hasn't been for a long time.

Tony Abrahams
45 Posted 28/03/2022 at 18:11:33
Sir John Moores, was a man who gave Evertonians some great times Danny, but after reading that great speech from yesteryear, it’s apparent to me that Evertonians have lost a lot of defiance, since Bill Kenwright’s, narrative change was accepted.
Jerome Shields
46 Posted 28/03/2022 at 18:15:26
Kenwright was always going to want Moyes back. His tenure was comfortable and not demanding on the club. The rot already existed before Moyes was appointed. After he was appointed, there was complaints about harder training and more demands. Moyes conformed to type and ended up giving them all a comfortable time.

He could not depend on them to produce the points when it mattered. Against the top teams, he was exposed as a bottler, with results to prove it over the years.

He partly enhanced the Everton Club to the structure of entitlement we have today, that many managers have had trouble with. Even at West Ham, his interviews before Top 4 opposition show an inferiority complex which we are, oh too familiar with.

I find myself also conforming to accepting the mediocrity that is Everton in some vain hope of some light emerging.

Ken Kneale
47 Posted 28/03/2022 at 18:35:32
Sorry Kevin and Steve - like Tony and Danny I personally find the last 27 years wholly unacceptable - especially the acceptance of mediocrity by the supporters and media that Moyes and Kenwright propagated and allowed to flourish for their own selfish ends one for personal gain and control and the other to suit his ability as a coach and character as a man.
Dave Lynch
48 Posted 28/03/2022 at 18:39:14
I can only remember the let downs with Moyes.
Never won away at the "Big 4", going 5.4.1 against Chelsea at home in that semi, getting battered by a Portuguese and was it a Romanian side in Europe, getting beat by them lot in the semi, the cup final Capitulation after going 1 up
And the numerous knife to gunfight scenarios we endured.
Not to mention he tried to strip us of our best players when he went to United.
I fucking despise him and his safety first KITAP one mindset.
Steve Shave
49 Posted 28/03/2022 at 18:40:25
Kevin 39 agree entirely. People seem to forget Moyes did it all with very little in the way of financial backing, why? Because they are too burdened with the weight of their expectations that's why. Moyes would have in my opinion spent wisely under Moshiri. I'm not even a massive Moyes fan, just can't stand the negativity towards someone who did a bloody good job in (at times) difficult circumstances.
Danny O’Neill
50 Posted 28/03/2022 at 19:01:34
For the sake of balance Steve, I was very supportive of Moyes in the earlier phase of his tenure. He did what was needed to be done and done a good job for us initially. He stabilised us and put us on a decent footing.

But it eventually became apparent he wasn't the person to take us to where I want Everton to be. Like the Chairman, he came in at an hour of need but overstayed the welcome and between them, set the club onto a pathway and mindset of accepting mediocracy.

Between them, they played down any kind of expectation. They are responsible for the lost generation of Evertonians who not only have never experienced success, but now don't seem to expect or demand it. I will continue to do so as long as I can breathe, speak and type.

I still shudder at the thought of that Wigan cup match at Goodison. I wake up in cold sweats over the semi final surrender against the dark side when they were there for the taking and we had them. I am embarrassed at the knife to a gunfight mentality that got installed into the club.

As for the way he departed, I like to consider myself an honest person. Not the best, but honest. He knew he was going to United from January yet lied and denied it. Then went as everyone knew he was.

To coin a phrase labelled at those who supported Ancellotti, the happy clapping of him on his last game at Goodison still makes me cringe.

Dave Abrahams
51 Posted 28/03/2022 at 19:02:29
Ken (47), Don’t forget Moyes’s selfish reasons, as well as Billy Boys, for staying so long as Everton’s manager, he was one of the top paid managers in Europe while at Everton, paid well above what talent he had, twelve long years and nothing in the cabinet to show for it, wasting a few chances to win something because he was too frightened of losing games rather than trying to win them.
Dale Self
52 Posted 28/03/2022 at 19:09:51
While Moyes's managerial capabilities and achievements can be debated there is no question about his wind-up ability. Good one, David, we still don't miss you.
Tony Abrahams
53 Posted 28/03/2022 at 19:31:35
I never set foot inside Goodison, whilst Moyes was still our manager, after that sickening Wigan defeat, and can still remember listening to the man’s euphoria on the radio, the following week, after Everton beat Man City.

At the time I remember thinking, are those three points worth more than being in an FA Cup semifinal? But as time went by, it became apparent why Moyes had celebrated the victory so joyfully.

The biggest problem has always been our current Chairmen, and to me, he has only ever had one rival, with regards to being the biggest jinx on Everton football club, and quite often, I get the feeling that Bill Kenwright is a secret Liverpudlian, especially when he tells us we have had some great times.

Paul Hewitt
54 Posted 28/03/2022 at 19:35:14
We haven't won the league since 87 or a trophy since 95 but people still claiming we are a big club, why?

Moyes did a marvelous job for us getting regular top 6 finishes. The next trophy we win could possibly be the Championship.

Danny O’Neill
55 Posted 28/03/2022 at 19:45:53
Manchester United, Chelsea, Leeds, Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Tottenham, Manchester City.

All have been relegated in my lifetime Paul and at times hadn't or haven't won trophies in years. A couple even went to the 3rd tier of English football. I doubt any of their fans stopped believing they were a big club.

Why shouldn't we consider Everton a big club? Some Evertonians may have had it beaten out of them. I haven't.

Brian Harrison
56 Posted 28/03/2022 at 19:46:47
I wont get into the debate about Moyes, but I do think some of our fans need to wake up and smell the coffee. Reading some of the comments would make you think that we are serial trophy winners, when you have to go back 36 years since we last won the league. In the 67 years I have followed this club I have only seen 3 managers in that time win a trophy, no wonder our favourite song has the line " if you know your history" in it.

All the top clubs would be ashamed at our poor trophy record over this period, and our only notable achievement is that other than Arsenal we have the longest unbroken spell in the top division and even that is now under threat. When I look at the teams at the top Man City, Chelsea I have seen both of these clubs playing outside of the top league, City dropping down 2 leagues, but both benefitted from rich owners taking over, when we finally got someone who could match their wealth the club have gone backwards. Not only have we gone backwards we are having weekly discussions to keep the right side of the FFP rules, so in essence we have blown Moshiris money and financially we are back to a club that is struggling financially and very little hope of reverting that decision any time soon.

Dave Abrahams
57 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:06:56
Danny (55)regarding a few big clubs have been relegated, I was asked a question the other week, couldn't get the right answer.

Who was captain of Man Utd when they were relegated?

No cheating now, just honest replies, that is if anyone is interested in replying.

Ken Kneale
58 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:16:57
Dave- I'll go for Martin Buchan although not sure if he became captain when they came back up.

As for Moyes, supporting him now is akin to a shipwrecked sailor clinging to the driftwood bits of the boat that their captain built in the first place - it shows how far we have fallen.

John Hughes
59 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:17:12
Dave (57). Martin Buchan?
Ray Said
60 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:17:17
Dave (57) was it Martin Buchan?
Dave Abrahams
61 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:21:10
No it wasn’t Martin Buchan, good guess though he was one of six or seven players I thought was captain!!
Danny O’Neill
62 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:29:45
I don't know the answer on that one Dave and I won't cheat, but intrigued if someone knows.

Not just for family reasons (now), but I remember Villa going down the year we last won the title. They've been relegated twice more recently since then. But they bounced back. Newcastle likewise, City and Leeds were staring down the abyss. Chelsea a nothing club.

We've sailed close to the wind with those 2 last day escapes in the 1990s. Hopefully it doesn't come to that this season.

But we will always be a big club. And we will be back to claim our place.

Chris Williams
63 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:41:05
Denis Irwin.
Dave Lynch
64 Posted 28/03/2022 at 20:46:28
Was it either David Sadler or Sammy Mcilroy?

Alan Gowling popped into my head but I think he was a bit later.

Dave Abrahams
66 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:04:53
Sorry, lads, still nobody with the correct answer.

I was very surprised when I was told the answer, queried it in fact, but it was correct!!

Dave Lynch
67 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:06:32
Alex Stepney, Dave?
Brian Hennessy
68 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:06:58
Dave #57 The answer is Harry Maguire 2022-23 season.
Dave Abrahams
69 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:15:13
Brian (68),you could be right with that one, depending on which club they get rid of him to!!

Dave (67), sorry, no go.

Si Cooper
70 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:31:17
Isn't the most consistent correlation between wage bill and finishing spot, and so you are only punching above your weight when you finish higher than expected when looking at your expenditure on wages?

Moyes had his time and many were convinced he could never transform the team into out and out winners. If that perception was true and the reality is that it continues then why hand the reins back to him rather than gambling that the next guy may be more hero than zero?

Remember, we are looking for ‘nothing but the best' not a steady hand on the tiller. The approach isn't risk-free but it is the one we must take to find the manager who can deliver what we are hoping for.

Jeff Armstrong
71 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:37:29
Dave A, Was it Tony Dunne ?
Dave Abrahams
72 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:39:26
Jeff((71), no Jeff, another one of my wrong answers!!
Danny O’Neill
73 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:41:50
Denis Irwin. Now there was a left back.
Andy Riley
74 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:43:54
I think the big problem with Moyes overall was the manner of his leaving. If he’d have signed a contract meaning that Man Utd had to pay compensation for him I think most people would have been reasonably content at his leaving feeling that he’d probably run his course at Everton at that time?
Sadly, the manner of his leaving and subsequent behaviour when trying to sign Everton players meant that the negative aspects of both his time at Everton and his leaving meant that a return would always be problematic.
Jeff Armstrong
75 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:48:56
Last guess, Willie Morgan?
Robert Tressell
76 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:57:13
Si # 70, by your own logic, was Moyes' glass ceiling our low wage bill relative to that of Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea?

Or was it his limitations as a manager? Or both?

Given our poor squad, financial issues and the fact no manager has lasted more than 18 months since Martinez - I think we could really use a manager to steady the ship. I don't want Moyes back, but if Lampard gets us into Europe in the next few seasons he will have done well.

Literally no manager in the world can transform this side into winners without huge investment (or an extremely astute strategy implemented over 3 or more years - and a bit of luck).

So if we try to hunt out a manager to win things without such investment or wider club strategy we will fail - as the last few years have demonstrated.

While that might not sit well with those who have actually witnessed successful sides and believe in the motto - it's our present reality.

Danny O’Neill
77 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:58:46
Put us out of out misery. Who was it?
David Currie
78 Posted 28/03/2022 at 21:59:15
Was it Jim Holton?
Dave Abrahams
79 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:01:41
Jeff (75), No, sorry Jeff.

Danny (77), ask your wife, she might know I think he played for Villa, not sure, I'll put the answer up in another 5 minutes.

Neil Copeland
80 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:05:28
Dave, was it Brian Greenoff?
Danny O’Neill
81 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:06:40
She's not talking to me. I'm going to West Ham away and Man Utd home. I'm with the dogs in the dog house.

I love them more than they realise.

The dogs and Everton that is!

Ian Hollingworth
82 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:08:44
Gordon Hill

Dale Self
83 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:08:55
Very well pointed out Andy 74. I didn't want that to get lost in Dave's fantastic quiz show he's put on here.
Barry Hesketh
84 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:13:53
The only Aston Villa player of that time with connections to Man Utd is as far as I remember, Jimmy Rimmer… but surely he wasn't the captain?

I think I know who it is now, but his connections are with another major club as well as Villa, and most would forget he played for United – if I've got the right guy.

Dave Abrahams
85 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:16:20
Neil and Ian, no wrong answers: I bet you all start checking the answer, yes, he did play for Villa, Danny in a distinguished career both as a player and a manager who made us all happy when his team scored a last-minute winner at Anfield to stop Liverpool from winning the league.

George Graham.

Paul Birmingham
86 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:17:05
Dave A, just tuning in to TW, tonight, was it Alex Stepney, when they got relegated in 1974?
Neil Copeland
87 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:21:04
I would never have guessed George Graham in a million years.

Great bit of trivia that, Dave, thanks.

Paul Birmingham
88 Posted 28/03/2022 at 22:32:58
Good question, Dave. I wouldn't ever have got George Graham, and he seems to be away from football for some time, now.
Don Alexander
89 Posted 28/03/2022 at 00:03:12
I wonder if George "Stroller" Graham is the surrogate father of most in our midfield?

He lost his place at Arsenal when they signed Bally off Catterick by the way.

Si Cooper
90 Posted 29/03/2022 at 02:05:40
Robert (76), er, yes, that is right, I was not contesting Moyes's general performance.

The point I was countering was how much value could be placed on another ‘quality' of Moyes that had been presented. How much a manager spends (or doesn't) may just not be that relevant if the overall quality or worth of the squad of players is more accurately represented by the total wages they command. Therefore, ‘judging' managers on net spend as some have tried to do on this thread is perhaps a pointless exercise. Sorry for not making that clear.

There are, of course, some occasions when the wage bill League and actual league placings haven't lined up (Leicester obviously) but it tends to show whether the manager is operating under the harshest conditions or not.

As I said before, my eventual dissatisfaction with Davie Moyes was because I couldn't see his teams developing further than best of the rest and so I'd much rather take punt after punt on unknown quantities rather than welcome him back.

The present relegation-haunted circumstances may cause some to hanker after we used to have but I'm generally happy that the club hierarchy has pursued that ‘X-factor'.

David Thomas
91 Posted 29/03/2022 at 08:01:00
Didn’t from memory George Graham have the captaincy taken off him during that season after falling out with Tommy Docherty?

Or am I thinking of when he fell out with him at Chelsea?

Tony Abrahams
92 Posted 29/03/2022 at 08:08:41
Moyes got clapped out of Goodison, so I’d say it was his subsequent behaviour afterwards which turned a lot of people off the man?
Dave Abrahams
93 Posted 29/03/2022 at 08:34:35
Neil (87) and Paul (88), you are both like me I couldn’t have guessed George Graham and I even queried the answer when I was told it.
Robert Tressell
94 Posted 29/03/2022 at 08:47:29
Si, I think we broadly agree on everything but the conclusion.

Certainly League placings broadly correlate to the level of investment into the playing squad.

Wage bill is a good proxy for that.
Net and gross spend are also indicators - as is overall squad value (which takes account of the fact that we don't get our moneys worth for the wages paid to Tosun, Delph, Sigurdsson and Gbamin etc). Transfermarkt publish this information and although it isn't perfect, each teams' value suffers from the same imperfections so it sorts of works out about right overall.

Net spend probably is the best indicator of how wisely you've spent your money rather than how good your squad actually is.

However you cut it, Moyes did very well relative to investment. Financially it was a knife to a gunfight. It's a shame he used that phrase in a footballing sense though and in that respect he let himself and the club down with that mentality.

However, what the 90s and period post Moyes have shown is that we can't just chop and change managers until we find one who materially out performs the level of investment. That approach has led to very unwise spending and managers underperforming the level of investment in the playing squad. In short, we'll get relegated doing that.

The moral of the story for me is that, without comparable riches, it is impossible for any manager to compete with the richest clubs at the top of the league.

However, I do think that a patient approach to building up a quality squad (through a sensible approach to net spend amongst other things) will allow us to return to a position where we are in with a shout of 4th to 6th place, European adventures and Cup trophies. Barring a miracle, that is the best we or any other club can hope for until we have huge sums of money to spend.

Brian Harrison
95 Posted 29/03/2022 at 10:01:34
Dave 93

I think Martin Buchan was definitely the captain when Man Utd went down in 73/74. Yes Docherty signed and played George Graham but he only played 24 games out of the 42 that season.

Tony Abrahams
96 Posted 29/03/2022 at 10:21:53
The official Manchester United captains website says Graham was captain of United in 1973, but has no mention of him still being captain in 1974, so it looks like you’ve led everyone up the garden path Dave.
Barry Hesketh
97 Posted 29/03/2022 at 11:27:09
Tony @96
According to the link below George Graham was the club captain in that relegation season. Maybe Buchan or somebody else led the team out on the occasions that Graham wasn't selected?

United Captains

Dave Abrahams
98 Posted 29/03/2022 at 14:55:39
Well it is certainly open to debate who was the captain of Man.Unt. when they were relegated in 1973-74, with Willie Morgan in the frame, it seems to me that Graham started the season as club captain but only played 24 games as Brian pointed out @ (95), maybe through injury or as David points out @(91) possibly had the captaincy taken off him by Tommy Docherty, Martin Buchan was definitely at the club signing in 1972, and he led them out of the second division in 1974-75 but doesn’t look like he was captain in the relegation season, so it’s a toss up between George Graham and Willie Morgan.

The moral of the story is when you ask a question make sure you know the bleedin’ answer. Sorry for the confusion but the question was asked in good faith of the answer being right.

Following on from that when you fall off your bike you get back on straight away so you can learn to ride it. With that in mind: Here is my next question, strictly for the over 75’s only: Who played centre half for Everton in the 1950 semi final versus Liverpool?

Danny O’Neill
99 Posted 29/03/2022 at 15:12:36
I don't know the answer to that one Dave, but you have reminded me of falling off my bike as a 6 year old.

I went hurtling down a bridge over a bypass. It had 2 traffic control pillars to stop vehicles using it. Going way too fast, I managed to perfectly make the handle bars hit them square on. The bike stopped. But I didn't and for a moment looked like Superman flying through the air.

Well I did stop, but about 20 yards from where the bike came to an abrupt halt, landing like a crashing glider on my chest and stomach.

I took most of the skin off my stomach and chest. Picked myself up, cried all the way home (with my bike).

Aside from telling me off for being stupid, my mother put me in a hot bath of salted water. I guess in hindsight it was tough love and cure, but it hurt!!

I digress. Let's see the answer to this latest football trivia!!

Dave Lynch
101 Posted 29/03/2022 at 15:54:46

Me arl fella seems to recall it was Falder or possibly Farrell.

Hes not google and his memories going a bit but thats what he came up with.

Danny O’Neill
104 Posted 29/03/2022 at 16:54:52
Technically, David Moyes and I are related. We are cousins of some sort by virtue of our Grandfathers. But I don't want him near my club again.

I will be at West Ham on Sunday and want to wipe the smugness off his post match interview.

Most importantly, I want Everton to win. That's all I ever want.

Win, not try not to lose. Awful mentality and approach to the beautiful game.

Dave Abrahams
105 Posted 29/03/2022 at 17:14:47
Dave (101), Your dad is right on the button with that, Ted Falder from Ellesmere Port and Peter Farrell played alongside him at left half in that game.

Tell him he did well with that answer, not many get that right and very few people remember Ted Falder at all, doubt if he played many games for the Blues and at that time we had the great TG Jones, out of favour with the club then, another Welsh international centre half Jack Humphrey’s possibly injured along with Maurice Lindsey all ahead of Ted Falder, tell him he gets 10 out of 10.

Dave Lynch
106 Posted 29/03/2022 at 17:27:44
Cheers Dave, he'll be made up with that.

Funny thing is age, his recall from the 50s,60s and 70s with regards Everton is phenomenal.

Watch a game with him now and he keeps asking me who our players are.
He wants no truck with the modern game and keeps repeating..." not a patch on Temple or Morrisey".

Jeff Armstrong
108 Posted 29/03/2022 at 17:47:20
To be fair Dave #106, there’s not one man, woman or child in the 39,000 crowd who would be able to argue with your Dad..
Derek Moore
109 Posted 29/03/2022 at 18:28:25
It was Willie Morgan. The arl fella had the answer instantly. Impressed, I did have to ask how he remembered so quickly and why he was so confident of his answer.

"Because I saw us beat them on my birthday at Goodison (23 April) and Willie skippered them. It was during the week because I got absolutely bladdered and I was really hungover on site the next day. Mick Lyons scored the only goal of the game. It was us that sent them down really coz after losing to us it was out of their hands. They needed to win the last two league games and have results from other clubs go their way, and them results never arrived for them. They lost to City and the back heel a few days after we did them and they were down."

Danny O’Neill
110 Posted 29/03/2022 at 18:32:35

If you want to bring a tear to the eye, read that.

Caveat that I'm an emotional Everton fool.

Tony Abrahams
111 Posted 29/03/2022 at 18:34:29
Some quiz-master you Dave!
Tony Abrahams
112 Posted 29/03/2022 at 18:54:57
A brilliant read Danny, it epitomizes everything me and you both feel about Everton, but this unfortunately makes me think of someone else, who is still connected to our great club, or we was, until he got his claws Into us anyway.
Dave Abrahams
113 Posted 29/03/2022 at 18:55:49
Tony (111), I did my best and Willie Morgan got the nod by default, poor George had captaincy snatched off him by Tommy Doc.

Tony guess who gave me the question? Your brother and my good son Michael, I got bleedin’ lumbered with you two!!

Danny O’Neill
114 Posted 29/03/2022 at 19:07:07
I know where you're going with that thought Tony and agree.

But coming from an Everton winner who played amongst winners and managed a winning team means something.

My son sent me the link. He's still away and they poor lad being born in 1994 has not seen Everton win anything in his living memory. His time has to come.

Paul Cherrington
115 Posted 01/04/2022 at 09:38:54
I personally loved Moyes as Everton manager and would have welcomed him back with open arms. This was a man who came into the club when we were at a low ebb (much like how we are now) and gave us back our pride, passion and respect.

The current side would not be in the state it is in with him here and would be much harder to play against. Quality manager who had the pragmatism to play to this teams strengths, rather than being welded to a 'philosophy'. Let's hope Lampard turns out as good.

Brian Murray
116 Posted 01/04/2022 at 10:56:14
Paul, your idea and my idea of Everton are miles apart.

Kenwright would love you unconditionally.

Danny O’Neill
117 Posted 01/04/2022 at 11:09:52
No, Paul. Just no.

An alternative view is that he was a manager who played down a generation's expectations and played into the Chairman's run book. They were a good match in that respect. He done a job but failed to push us forward. They failed to push us forward for the sake of balance.

The word 'pragmatism' speaks volumes for how that expectation has been set.

We'd rather see pragmatism than win the Premier League as Champions? Is that what we have become? Sorry, I respect different views, but I won't accept that. My bar for Everton is higher than being pragmatic.

Ken Kneale
118 Posted 01/04/2022 at 18:44:19
Paul; - your attitude is music to the ears of Kenwright and shows how the expectations and standing of Everton Football Club have been diluted beyond belief in his tenure - I am with Danny
Chris Hart
119 Posted 10/04/2022 at 08:17:43
Look at the state we were in before Moyes arrived in 2002. Eight relegation battle in 10 years. We never had any relegation worries during his 11-year stint.

If he had been given the money to spend these last 5 years, we would I'm sure be a regular Champions League and definite Europa League club. Pity we never brought him back after Silva.

Danny O’Neill
120 Posted 10/04/2022 at 08:23:53
Why are we still talking about a former Everton manager who never won anything?

He's the past. He's gone. He's not coming back.

Peter Carpenter
121 Posted 10/04/2022 at 09:37:37
Poor Moyesie, he can't let it go. Even at his funeral a voice will be heard from within the coffin... 'I was very close to rejoining Everton, you know!'

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