The Gump Brothers

by   |   08/11/2022  52 Comments  [Jump to last]

In the movie Forrest Gump, the titular character somehow pops up at every major event in the '60s and '70s. At Everton, after a miserable failure and fans calling attention to the failings of yet another manager, I have to ask, why are our Forrest Gumps still here?

Michael Keane and Tom Davies. They were there in the side the day Koeman's team lost 2-5 to Arsenal and he was sacked. Keane started, Davies came on at half-time when it was 1-1.

With Koeman gone, they both played at home to Atalanta under Unsworth: 1-5. Soon he was gone and replaced by Fat Sam.

A few months later we saw a repeat with Keane starting and Davies on at half-time and we lost 5-1 again to Arsenal. Sam finally got the chop after a miserable end-of-season defeat to West Ham Utd (3-1) and guess which two fellows were playing from the start? Davies and Keane. 

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In came Silva and the low point of his first season was a 2-6 defeat at home to Spurs. Even with the new acquisitions, somehow Tom Davies found his way into the starting line-up on that day too, alongside, of course, Michael Keane.

More new signings the next summer but, when Silva got sacked, it was after a 2-5 defeat to Liverpool and, lo and behold, once again the dynamic duo were playing.

In came Carlo and the heaviest defeat in his first season saw us lose 4-0 to Chelsea with again Davies and Keane starting. We had ups and downs but the season petered out miserably with a 1-3 home defeat to Bournemouth and – would you Adam and Eve it! – the Gump Brothers were starters again.

More new signings and a promising season that ended in an embarrassing 5-0 loss to Man City with Europe on the line and, once again, as if by fate, Keane and Davies were starters that day before Carlo walked. 

Another new manager (Rafa Benitez), more new signings but the first shock wave of the season came as Davies and Keane started against Watford at Goodison when we lost 2-5. Rafa wasn't gone long after the 1-4 defeat to Liverpool and the loss at Norwich, both of which Tom luckily missed through injury but naturally Keane played in both.

In came Frank, things turned around at Palace but, to cap another wonderful season of failure, we had to end with a 5-0 loss at Arsenal and, on cue, both Keane and Davies had made their way into the starting line-up that day. 

Another season, another standout humiliation against Bournemouth tonight and is it any surprise the Gump Brothers both played – just as they have in every remarkably, costly, embarrassing and manager-ending defeat over the last 6 years?

Yes, we have had other losers (Gomes, Gbamin, Tosun, etc) but none of them have been ever-presents in every one of our most humiliating defeats over a 6-year period. They may play in a few then, then are dropped, subbed, sold, injured or what have you for the next but, every single time without fail, these same two players are in the most epic fails. Even Holgate has only appeared in about half the aforementioned nightmares.

So my question is: Why are they still here? 

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Reader Comments (52)

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Lyndon Lloyd
1 Posted 09/11/2022 at 07:20:59
I'm at my wits' end with both players myself, Kieran, but that's probably harsh on Keane and Davies. Let's not overlook, for example, the role of the former played in keeping us up with that goal against Palace in May (and, yes, I know he shared culpability with the rest of the squad for us being down there in the first place).

Why are they still with us? As ever, it's down to budgets (ours), saleability and the fact that until we brought in Onana, Garner, Gueye, Tarkowski and Coady, we weren't blessed with a lot of options. Even when Ancelotti came on board, he had to sign three midfielders to add depth.

Davies has been a body; regarded as an adequate back-up option, not soaking up big wages like Gomes, and a player who could, perhaps, improve under the right manager. I think we can all agree that, on the latter point, the ship has probably sailed even if he has had a couple of effective cameos this season, notably against Liverpool.

With other players you mention either sold off or shipped out on loan, the likes of Keane and Davies are among the last vestiges of a poor squad; the next players to be replaced by up-and-coming youth or better replacements from outside. It's simply a matter of time.

Tony Abrahams
2 Posted 09/11/2022 at 08:09:53
I will always be thankful for that Bergkamp-esque finish that Michael Keane provided, Lyndon, and I will always wonder how Tom Davies might have developed if he hadn't been playing for the most dysfunctional club in the Premier League, since he burst onto the scene around 7 years ago, Kieran?

He hasn't been allowed to develop, but then I don't think anything or anyone has been allowed to truly develop since Farhad Moshiri came into Everton FC. (Except the building that is beginning to take place on the waterfront, I know.)

The development beforehand was all about being best of the rest, whilst punching above our weight (even though this was mostly a total fallacy, considering Everton usually came around 7th, and usually paid around the 7/8th highest wages?) and trying not to live beyond our means, even if this meant selling everything we owned, like our training ground, and choosing instead, to rent training facilities at an extortionate price.

Borrowing from Peter, to pay Paul, just helped push Everton further away from the bigger teams, and now leaves us at the very lowest point in our long playing history, considering we no longer exist to win trophies. This should surely be a much bigger concern than picking out two average players, who very rarely start for Everton anymore?

Joe McMahon
3 Posted 09/11/2022 at 08:20:38
Micheal Keane's goal v Palace was priceless, and occasionally he has been okay. Sometimes average players score important goals (eg, Gareth Farrelly).

Tom Davies… I've just never understood how such a limited player could be at a Premier League club for so many years. Christ, he qualifies for a testimonial in 3 years!

Dennis Stevens
4 Posted 09/11/2022 at 13:29:53
If the two players in question had played their last match for the club last night and left for pastures new on a free transfer tomorrow, it would make very little, if any, difference to where the club is right now, other than to free up some wages.

It'd probably brighten Kieran's day though!

Dave Cashen
5 Posted 09/11/2022 at 13:39:40
This sort of article doesn't just cheapen football websites. It insults the intelligence of the knowledgeable Evertonian.

We have had some fearful hidings over the last few years. There is not a regular Everton player who has not been on the receiving end of these hidings. Yet none of the many other players are even mentioned.

Tim Cahill is as close to an Everton legend as we have had recently, but can you imagine how many hammerings could be listed by somebody as determined as the author of this distasteful piece to besmirch his record?

On Saturday, we could find ourselves back where we were last season (when Davies hardly featured). I wonder who is to blame for that? The Gump Brothers haven't been playing.

£750M spent on numerous players who have all to varying degrees failed. Yet two players (one who cost nothing) have cost four managers their jobs???

I think that sort of genius logic only ever really surfaces when people abandon all common sense to pursue petty little vendettas against the players they don't like.

What was it Forest's mother used to say? Oh yeah… "Stupid is as stupid does."

Danny O’Neill
6 Posted 09/11/2022 at 13:58:29
I have been a Keane basher over the years. I won't hide from that. He worries the shit out of me. His concentration and anticipation don't compensate for his lack of pace like with other not-so-quick defenders who manage to do so.

He's what we've had but not where we want to be. I suspect his time is up, depending on what goes on with the manager.

I've criticised Tom Davies many a time for individual performances, but I'm also sympathetic to him being a victim of the turbulent club he's had to grow up in and around. It's a good job he understands Everton or he'd probably have voluntarily walked himself a few years ago.

How are young players supposed to develop amidst the rotating door of managers that is Everton? For where we are now, a decent squad player, I think, Kieran.

I'm still hurting quite badly from last night. I could easily slate Keane and Davies for poor performances on the south coast. But then I could do that for all but two... okay, maybe three of the god knows how many players we used last night.

Shocking. And most know the usual blue-tinted glasses I look through. I believe I even got called out on the live forum last night. A place I gave up a long time ago and certainly not when I'm stood in the stands.

I've never hidden from not rating Keane and at 29, the phrase containing Leopard and changing spots springs to mind. Although I too will forever be grateful for that deft finish against Palace. Davies isn't where we want to be, but right now he's a decent squad member.

Kieran Kinsella
7 Posted 09/11/2022 at 14:09:41
Casho,

Not wanting to further insult your great intelligence but, having highlighted they both played in all of our worst defeats over 6 years, let's flip it and look at the other side: our best results.

This season's biggest win was v Palace – were they both in the team? No. Last season's was v Brentford? Did they both play? No.

Did they both play in Rafa's three early-season wins last season? No. When Rafa beat Arsenal? No.

When Carlo won at Spurs, Leeds or Arsena, were they both in the line-up? No.

Where they both in the starting line-up when Dunc beat Chelsea? Nope.

In fact, the only noteworthy win they both started in the last 5 years was Liverpool.

So, if a pairing are always involved in our worst defeats and that pairing is absent in our best results over 5 years, then that rather looks like a trend.

Also, Keane cost £25 million – that's not “next to nothing”; it's more than we spent on most of our other players.

Kieran Kinsella
8 Posted 09/11/2022 at 14:12:22
Danny,

How's Tom decent? What actual attribute has he shown since that Man City goal?

Dribbling?
Passing?
Tackling?
Scoring?
Pace?

What quality does he possess ahead of any untried kid? Free transfer journeyman?

Joe McMahon
9 Posted 09/11/2022 at 14:26:25
Danny I'm with Kieran (sorry dude), I just can't see of any benefits Tom Davies brings.

The goal v City was well over 5 years ago, in a game we scored 4. Lookman also scored but was written off (way too early). If he had scored the easy chance last night, we probably would have won. He missed the penalty at QPR last season and we went out of the competition also.

He's a liability, who's on Easy Street at Everton as "He's one of us". (Unsworth and Ferguson model...) I've a horrible feeling Gordon will end up the same.

Danny O’Neill
10 Posted 09/11/2022 at 14:40:16
He certainly wasn't decent last night, Kieran & Joe.

But then I could rant about most of them.

I don't think Tom has developed into the player we thought he might. A lot of that is down to circumstance and the club's instability, in my view.

Sadly, at 24, I don't feel he's going to get much better. Squad player for where we are right now. Which isn't the best of places.

Sorry (again). I still have a football hangover. I wish it was a real hangover, but no drinks trolley on the train and taxi straight home to sleep with the dogs.

Ian Pilkington
11 Posted 09/11/2022 at 14:52:02
The real Gump is the one who has been sitting on the front row of the Directors Box for three decades.

Or are we all Gumps for putting up with it?

Joe McMahon
12 Posted 09/11/2022 at 14:52:36
Danny, I know you are probably going on Saturday. If you are there for the day, you can have brunch with Frank and Uncle Harry in Sandbanks. Then nip upto Poole for a couple of pints on the Bricklayers Arms (fab pub).
Danny O’Neill
13 Posted 09/11/2022 at 14:58:01
I know Poole quite quite well Joe. Spent a bit of time down at Hamworthy over the years when in the military.
Kieran Kinsella
14 Posted 09/11/2022 at 15:14:46
Dennis Stevens

Do you remember those old Peter Sellers Pink Panther films? Whenever I see those two on the team sheet I feel like the Herbert Lom Commissioner character who was eventually driven insane by Clouseau's incompetence. Just the same clowns like hamsters in a wheel.

Dennis Stevens
15 Posted 09/11/2022 at 15:24:20
I was more optimistic, Kieran. When I saw Frank had selected that back three, I wondered whether he might be intending to play Keane as a false no. 5!
Lee Courtliff
16 Posted 09/11/2022 at 15:29:10
I said on the Live Forum last night that I've finally given up on Tom Davies.

I initially thought he could be a very good midfielder; lately I've believed he was a decent squad player who could "play his part when required".

But last night he was atrocious. The miss in the first half was really quite pathetic and, late in the game, he had a perfectly easy opportunity to play a release pass but it was intercepted with ease and we were back under pressure! The game was already lost at this point, but even so…

Like Kieran said, he offers nothing in terms of passing or dribbling and he's certainly not a ball-winner or goalscorer. And that corner at the end of the first half was infuriatingly bizarre!!

We were fuckin losing with 30 seconds to play and he takes a short corner when he's not even left-footed, meaning, when he got the ball back, he wasn't in a position to actually do anything with it besides lose possession as his body shape was all wrong! It was just plain incompetence.

I'd happily play Mills or Warrington over him from now on.

Eddie Dunn
17 Posted 09/11/2022 at 15:37:52
I only caught the lowlights of the Cup match but Tom Davies seemed energetic, full of running, and should have popped in a goal.

It doesn't make him great but there were plenty of other mistakes in that performance. I'd still play Davies ahead of Doucoure or Onana.

Kieran Kinsella
18 Posted 09/11/2022 at 15:42:34
Joe,

Good call on Farrelly a poor player. Like Stracqualursi, Drenthe, Van der Myede, Niasse, Chadwick, Velios, Max Moore, he has a moment or two for his highlight reel but we quickly said "Thanks very much" and moved him on as his general performances were poor. We didn't keep him around for 6 or 7 years.

Dave Cashen
19 Posted 09/11/2022 at 15:53:31
You either understand why Davies is here or you don't.

Davies is here for two reasons. The first being that around half a billion pounds has been spent on upgrades and they have have all failed.

The second one is easy. He is cheap as chips (always welcome at a badly run club) and a steady stream of managers have trusted him to fill in and do what he is told.

He hasnt been a regular first choice. If He is in the starting line-up it's because it's an already weakened one. Somebody/s is unavailable.

He gets games in competitions the club has long since abandoned to keep him ticking over. Just in case. He is unlikely to win you a match. Ever. Most Evertonians know that

Tom Davies doesn't have much more to offer than bravery and honest endeavour. He only ever does what it says on the tin.

Some clearly don't understand that and choose to hate on him, both throughout a match and long after its over. for me that says more about them than him. How can people watch such desperate team performance as last night and still keep coming back to attack the same source ? Talk about blinkered.

People can make ridiculous claims about Davies and Keane costing four managers their jobs.

But they are going to be scratching their heads wondering who to blame if we lose on Saturday and Frank is dismissed

Kieran Kinsella
20 Posted 09/11/2022 at 16:01:34
Dazza

"Tom Davies doesn't have much more to offer than bravery and honest endeavour."

Neither of which are or have been in evidence for years. The short corner last night, the pass to Mina when he was on to score, the weak pass of a shoot he should have buried a few weeks ago.

As for Frank I won't be scratching my head who is to blame if he is sacked.

Dave Cashen
21 Posted 09/11/2022 at 16:23:34
Keiran

Sorry your article didn't get the reaction you clearly expected. Leave you to it.


Stephen Smyth
22 Posted 09/11/2022 at 17:04:32
Unfortunately every team needs a scapegoat.

We have a Davies... Mina... Keane or Holgate – you pays your money,you take your choice!

Kieran Kinsella
23 Posted 09/11/2022 at 17:08:42

Dave,

Funnily enough, I didn't have a reaction in mind. I was just posting an opinion based on specific data relating to who plays when we win and who plays when we lose over a 6-year period.

Thanks for playing.

Jason Hewly
24 Posted 09/11/2022 at 18:02:01
Tom Davies? He's shite. A solid 3 out of 10 in every game. Far from him being a victim of a turbulent club, he's a benefactor of it, because a well-run club would have shipped him out in his second year.

We've tried to move him on. We started the Southampton and Newcastle rumours to tempt them into an £8M(!!!) offer but they knew something that everyone knows (except maybe Dave) that he's nowhere close to being a Premier League player.

Even by the law of averages he should have done something noteworthy in 7 years, but he's even too shite to earn a once-in-a-blue-moon slice of luck. In any properly run club, he'd be demoted to cutting up the oranges, but he'd probably fuck that up too.

As for Keane, he's shite too.

Danny O’Neill
25 Posted 09/11/2022 at 18:45:29
I'll praise players when I think it's warranted. I'll criticise payers when I think it's warranted. It's all opinion based and I try to do it constructively, even in the heat of the moment.

I'll reiterate, I think Tom Davies is a decent (not great) squad player, who has suffered with the instability at the club. It's affected his development.

I think Ross Barkley wasn't coached properly as a youngster and then there seemed to be an attitude / off field issue. That affected his development

I think Jack Rodwell was played in the wrong position and not coached correctly. He was a ball playing centre back in my opinion. He seemed to not enjoy football. Those factors affected his development as much as injury.

I think Michael Keane is an honest footballer who gives his all but has his flaws in his game that he has never has and probably will never iron out.

It's not that they're "shite". I can't say that as they've played a way higher standard of football than me. It's the circumstances and coaching as much as the natural natural ability that have contributed to how far they could have and possibly should have gone.

I have to say, I would like to understand how some can be suspended or moderated on here, when others seem to be able to rant at will. I apparently even got a mention on the live forum yesterday. I don't go there having given it a swerve for a few years now. Likewise I won't be there on Saturday when I'm back at the Vitality.

I'll probably get a yellow for that one, but had to say it!

Tony Abrahams
26 Posted 09/11/2022 at 18:55:31
I often say that life is full of contradictions.

Michael Keane must have confidence in his ability, otherwise I'm not sure he could have phoned Gareth Southgate, to ask him why he wasn't in his England squad. But whenever I watch Keane play, I've never seen a player who looks confident on the pitch, and that's the only place that really matters when it's your job.

Rumours flying around about trouble in the changing rooms after yesterday's game, but I'm not sure the players have got enough fight in themselves for this to be true…

Ed Prytherch
27 Posted 09/11/2022 at 19:05:26
If there is one player in a defence who cannot be trusted by the other players, it fucks up everything. It happened with Cuco Martina and it happens with Michael Keane. Last night, he looked like he could not trust himself.
Clive Rogers
28 Posted 09/11/2022 at 19:05:48
You can't say Tom Davies hasn't had his chances. He has made 167 appearances for Everton.

In his first five full seasons, he averaged 30 appearances per season. I am sure that, if he'd been good enough, he would have made it.

I don't see club instability as a factor when he was featuring that much. He just lacked pace and ability.

Dave Abrahams
30 Posted 10/11/2022 at 10:27:18
Danny (25),

You'll have to do better than “shite” to get a yellow, try a bit harder!!

Danny O’Neill
31 Posted 10/11/2022 at 10:32:21
I guess that's a 5 out of 10 Dave!!!
Mike Gaynes
32 Posted 10/11/2022 at 16:26:29
Tom Davies scored 32 seconds into my first game at Goodison. I cried like a little kid and my eyes still fill up at the memory. For that reason alone, I will carry him in my heart forever.

But I am never, ever happy to see him on the pitch. He simply has nothing to offer. "Bravery and honest endeavour", yes, certainly, but that is the barest minimum expectation for a professional footballer. (Notwithstanding that many don't bother to produce it.)

It isn't just the lack of physical ability that drives me crazy about him... it's the mental mistakes. He has cost us games with missed defensive assignments, with foolish fouls, with poor passing decisions in midfield that brought counterattacks in return.

I wouldn't necessarily have expected him to score that goal on Tuesday -- not after such a long rusty stretch on the bench -- but at age 24 in his 167th appearance, I would expect him to at least make wise, composed decisions on the ball. It doesn't really happen.

I don't blame the club for extending his contract 4 years ago. There seemed to be a possibility he would develop, and it's not big money by Premier League standards. But I would expect him to be sold this summer.

Kieran Kinsella
33 Posted 10/11/2022 at 17:18:51
Mike,

Was that the City game when he made that weak shot that turned into an assist for Lukaku but we all pretended it went over the line as we didn't realize he'd be a long-term charity case?

Dave Cashen
34 Posted 10/11/2022 at 18:11:34
What a pity it wasn't the goal against City, Mike. Many believe it was one of the best individual goals by an Everton player in the last 20 years.

I just checked to see if it was 80 yards he ran, or was it just the 70 before he deftly lifted over the keeper? Yep, it was 80.

I think you'll need to be a bit patient waiting for him to go though. Many believe the fans turned against Koeman and they also hounded out Sam and Rafa. However "irrefutable proof" has emerged that Tom Davies (assisted by Keane) drove out our last four managers.

The word on the street is that they are after a five-timer. Apparently the bookies have got Frank odds-on to go before either of them.

Brian Murray
35 Posted 10/11/2022 at 18:25:53
Dave.

All very well people saying "See this through and we will be okay". But when you're detached, sitting on a yacht, maybe getting a bit twitchy looking at the table again, it is very different to our reality when he has so much riding in our survival.

Hope I'm wrong... most us want Frank to get through this.

Kieran Kinsella
36 Posted 10/11/2022 at 18:28:30
Wouldn't "individual" mean he ran all the way as opposed to passing to Lukaku (and overhitting it)? Then, after the other player got it and actually played it into Lukaku, Rom ran into the box, then passed it to Tom.
Kieran Kinsella
37 Posted 10/11/2022 at 18:34:37
Mike,

We won't have to sell him as he will be out of contract. Hopefully if we leave him outside, the rag and bone man will take him.

Rob Halligan
38 Posted 10/11/2022 at 18:34:49
Kieran and Dave. The game Mike refers to was against Leicester, when Tom Davies scored after 32 seconds. We won the game either 4-2 or 4-3.
Mike Gaynes
39 Posted 10/11/2022 at 18:46:12
Kieran, you're correct, thank you.

Rob, you're correct, thank you.

Dave #34, Tom also ran about 70 yards for the goal I'm talking about, April 2017 against Leicester. He sprinted past about eight people to support Super Kev, who was pulled down, and Tom picked up the loose ball and slotted it neatly past Schmeichel. It was a fantastic effort, and we all know the young man has never lacked for effort.

I got to meet him the following week and wanted to tell him what it had meant to me, but he was really shy, only 18 then. So I just said Hello.

Tony Abrahams
41 Posted 10/11/2022 at 19:00:08
He comes across as a very decent young man, Mike, and I'm sure he'd have opened up if you had said a bit more to him.

When I spoke to him myself, I thought the kid was a very good listener, and if anyone doesn't think that playing for so many different managers, whilst coming mid-table or worse every season, hasn't had a detrimental effect on every young player at the club (bar Calvert-Lewin maybe?) then this surprises me.

His miss the other night was absolutely appalling imo though, he'd already sent the keeper, and only had to take another step forward, remain calm and simply pass it into the open goal. Surely this is the one of the main reasons why footballers train?

Rick Tarleton
43 Posted 10/11/2022 at 19:03:33
Careful, Danny (25), such objective and rational opinions won't go down well.

Never forget that as young players Tarkowski was the reserve for Keane and Mee at Burnley. Davies was the great hope, and the Man City goal did exist.

We are quick to condemn certain players at Goodison. Centuries ago, Derek Temple was condemned as over-rated, nicknamed "Shirley", because he wasn't Hickson or Harris, but reinvented himself as a winger and became a Goodison hero. Mick Buckley was hounded out and, in recent years, Jeffers, Ball (Michael), Rodwell and Barkley have been the objects of abuse.

Gordon is obviously in a limbo after his elevation to £60 million player and is frustrated and angry in his every action. Few players have the mental strength of Iwobi who has moved from zero to hero in recent months. Crowds are not sympathetic to players who are injury prone or have a run of three bad games.

Players, like most of us in our jobs, need empathy and encouragement, carrots rather than sticks. Centuries ago in "Football Monthly" John McAdam said the Everton crowd was the hardest and least sympathetic in the League, I was about 12 at the time and didn't believe it; now, I think he had a point.

Kieran Kinsella
51 Posted 10/11/2022 at 20:09:52
Tony @41,

As far as the miss goes, yeah, we only pay him to practice five days a week.

I went to a meeting some years ago where Colin Powell, the ex-General and US Secretary of State, was speaking about motivating people to be better performers. But the first thing he said is that you can get frustrated as people struggle to perform despite tough love, arm round the shoulder, pep talks, whatever.

This, as he said, "is because some people are just losers. You can't help them. Get them out of your life."

Rob Dolby
52 Posted 10/11/2022 at 21:47:59
Both players are honest Premier League pros. I could have picked half a dozen others that deserve the Gump mantle.

They aren't world beaters but have put it all out on the pitch whilst in a blue shirt.

£25m is a fraction of the £500m wasted. Whilst Mina was bought for £27m and isn't capable of running through a wet paper bag, Keane was wearing a boot 2 sizes too big due to a foot injury. A fractured skull was soon to follow oh and a vital goal about 6 months ago!

Davies the local lad must have seen off at least £100m worth of midfielders in his time with us. With well over 100 appearances for the blues under about 7 different managers, there must be a reason why he keeps getting appearances?

Maybe these two are the modern day Mick Lyons and Ronny Goodlass just honest pros that played for the blues.

Don Alexander
54 Posted 10/11/2022 at 23:23:46
Rick (#43) The Football Monthly was GOLD to me as a lad. Thanks for the memory.

I think some fans of most clubs have gelled into critical cliques for and against certain of their players ever since football began. That said, Keane and Davies have never consistently impressed as reliable players in my opinion.

They're bog-standard at best......

.......But way more productive and successful than the two total tossers who are still driving OUR club into oblivion after seven ruinous years, and in one of their case's, for more than 20 years beforehand.

Bernie Quinn
56 Posted 11/11/2022 at 01:52:23
Kieran; Just popped in to say I enjoyed and agreed with your article and to add that Holgate must be a near cousin to the Gumps.
Kieran Kinsella
57 Posted 11/11/2022 at 04:49:23
Bernie

Cheers mate. I hope the folks down in NZ are taking good care of you and you’re feeling better

Steve Carter
58 Posted 11/11/2022 at 06:58:12
Er, Kieran, what Dave means is that correlation does not imply causation. Or so goes the informal fallacy. Then again, I suppose part of the fun of Forrest Grump is that it invites acceptance of the proposition.
Dave Cashen
59 Posted 11/11/2022 at 08:06:02
I think Don sums this up when he talks about cliques and calls both players bog standard. I would also agree with Rob Dolby - Excellent point about seeing off millions of pounds worth of talent under two international managers and a couple of Champions league winners.

The author of the article claims he is merely giving opinion, but, for me, this concerted effort has something a little more unsavoury to it than that. He repeatedly focused on these two on the Match day thread and has come back to this thread a dozen times. Is that what People who are merely giving an opinion do ?

I would suggest this "article" may have been penned by somebody playing to what he thought would be a ready made Lynch mob.

Both Tom Davies and Michael Keane are honest professionals. They're not up to the level we need. Not often enough anyway. They need to be moved on and probably will be, but when they look back on their careers. they can look back with the certain knowledge that they have scored goals for this club that they (and many an Evertonian ) will take to their graves.

When I saw this article I felt compelled to respond, but having seen the desperate attempts to shout down down even mild support and decry TD's goal against City. I now realise I am deep into pinch of salt territory.

Mike.

I haven't lived in Liverpool for over thirty years. Visits home are fleeting. I kiss the family, hug friends, watch the match and I head back.

The city has its fair share of wrong'uns. But I would recognise the generosity of soul you so beautifully describe in my sleep. It is deeply engrained into the fabric of the city.

A big well done to all concerned and a special one to the people from other parts of the country who have taken this club to their hearts.

Your story and the ensuing thread has just made my Friday spring even springier Mike. It's beautiful

Mick O'Malley
60 Posted 11/11/2022 at 08:18:43
I'm with Kieran on this, I hope I never see these two in an Everton shirt again, there not the only 2 mind you…

And for whoever it was having a pop at Onana, the difference is that Onana has played about 20-plus first-team games, Davies is not far off 200 first-team games,

Onana is named in the Belgian squad for the World Cup; Davies can count himself lucky to make the bench for Everton. That miss the other night was absolutely shocking,

I don't care if he's a blue or local or is on minimal wages, the lad is bang average and contributes absolutely sweet fuck-all on the pitch.

Rob Halligan
61 Posted 11/11/2022 at 08:33:16
Tom Davies must have some kind of panic attack when he sees the whites of the goal frame.

When he was clean through last season away at Man Utd in the closing minutes, only to square the ball for Yerry Mina who was unfortunately in an offside position. A few more steps forward and Tom Davies scores.

That the other night was insane. He didn't just put it high and wide, he blasted it high and wide. Again another step or two and he almost walks the ball in. The goalie was almost on his knees fearing the worst.

I'm sure there are other occasions when he has had panic attacks when in front of goal, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Kieran Kinsella
75 Posted 11/11/2022 at 19:14:37
Dave,

Lynch mob? Far from it. I used specific data to support my opinion as I realize others disagree. I don't except everyone to agree and if everyone did agree on everything, ToffeeWeb wouldn't need to exist.

Moreover, I realize that nothing I say on here has any effect on the people running the club, much less a lynch mob.

Yes, I also talked about these two on the match thread because they were crap and I'm sick of watching them be crap over the last 6 years. Since you yourself conceded they're not good enough for us, I'm not even sure what your actual disagreement is.

Danny O’Neill
76 Posted 11/11/2022 at 23:06:16
I thought I'd posted elsewhere, but like you Dave, I live elsewhere now and only travel home for Everton, weddings, christenings and unfortunately occasional funerals. But the city never leaves you.

Rob; I'll message you and see you there. See you all there blues. In person, in spirit or whatever way you are following.

Dave Cashen
77 Posted 12/11/2022 at 09:05:30
I thought I was done here, Kieran, but you still don't seem to understand the point.

You are not merely giving an opinion. You are bearing false witness. Making up stuff in an attempt to besmirch two men who have only ever given their all for this club. You did the same with Gordon recently, peddling stories you read in a notoriously tatty tabloid.

The claim that these men have cost four managers their jobs is beyond ludicrous. Both performed reasonably well for Koeman despite the mediocrity surrounding them. Benitez and Big Sam were deeply unpopular appointments and were driven out by an angry fanbase in short order. Carlo left to accept a better offer. I can only assume you are claiming they lost Unsworth and Ferguson the jobs they never had in the first place.

Michael Keane was a fine centre-half. Admired and coveted. But, like every centre-back who has played for Everton or England in this era, he has lost his way.

That's another topic for another thread, but let's be very, very clear here. Without Keane's drive, determination and skill in the Palace game, you and every other Evertonian would be watching Championship football right now.

Keane's drop in form, lapses of confidence and concentration have most definitely blotted his copybook, the criticism has been justified., But the guy has given everything to this club. He has played through horrific injury, including a broken head. Anybody trying to ridicule him in the way you are doing here will always draw a response from me.

Everyone knows when a player is p!aying badly. not least the player himself. No good can come of distorting or exaggerating what is already a problem for the club. No good can come from angrily denying the good things they have managed to do.

If this is coming between you and your sleep, don't resort to counting sheep. Try counting all the Man City players Tom Davies left trailing in his wake leading up to the goal you are so childishly denying him credit for.



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