The Gump Brothers

Why are they still with us? As ever, it's down to budgets (ours), saleability and the fact that until we brought in Onana, Garner, Gueye, Tarkowski and Coady, we weren't blessed with a lot of options. Even when Ancelotti came on board, he had to sign three midfielders to add depth.

Davies has been a body; regarded as an adequate back-up option, not soaking up big wages like Gomes, and a player who could, perhaps, improve under the right manager. I think we can all agree that, on the latter point, the ship has probably sailed even if he has had a couple of effective cameos this season, notably against Liverpool.

With other players you mention either sold off or shipped out on loan, the likes of Keane and Davies are among the last vestiges of a poor squad; the next players to be replaced by up-and-coming youth or better replacements from outside. It's simply a matter of time.

He hasn't been allowed to develop, but then I don't think anything or anyone has been allowed to truly develop since Farhad Moshiri came into Everton FC. (Except the building that is beginning to take place on the waterfront, I know.)

The development beforehand was all about being best of the rest, whilst punching above our weight (even though this was mostly a total fallacy, considering Everton usually came around 7th, and usually paid around the 7/8th highest wages?) and trying not to live beyond our means, even if this meant selling everything we owned, like our training ground, and choosing instead, to rent training facilities at an extortionate price.

Borrowing from Peter, to pay Paul, just helped push Everton further away from the bigger teams, and now leaves us at the very lowest point in our long playing history, considering we no longer exist to win trophies. This should surely be a much bigger concern than picking out two average players, who very rarely start for Everton anymore?

Tom Davies… I've just never understood how such a limited player could be at a Premier League club for so many years. Christ, he qualifies for a testimonial in 3 years!

It'd probably brighten Kieran's day though!

We have had some fearful hidings over the last few years. There is not a regular Everton player who has not been on the receiving end of these hidings. Yet none of the many other players are even mentioned.

Tim Cahill is as close to an Everton legend as we have had recently, but can you imagine how many hammerings could be listed by somebody as determined as the author of this distasteful piece to besmirch his record?

On Saturday, we could find ourselves back where we were last season (when Davies hardly featured). I wonder who is to blame for that? The Gump Brothers haven't been playing.

£750M spent on numerous players who have all to varying degrees failed. Yet two players (one who cost nothing) have cost four managers their jobs???

I think that sort of genius logic only ever really surfaces when people abandon all common sense to pursue petty little vendettas against the players they don't like.

What was it Forest's mother used to say? Oh yeah… "Stupid is as stupid does."

He's what we've had but not where we want to be. I suspect his time is up, depending on what goes on with the manager.

I've criticised Tom Davies many a time for individual performances, but I'm also sympathetic to him being a victim of the turbulent club he's had to grow up in and around. It's a good job he understands Everton or he'd probably have voluntarily walked himself a few years ago.

How are young players supposed to develop amidst the rotating door of managers that is Everton? For where we are now, a decent squad player, I think, Kieran.

I'm still hurting quite badly from last night. I could easily slate Keane and Davies for poor performances on the south coast. But then I could do that for all but two... okay, maybe three of the god knows how many players we used last night.

Shocking. And most know the usual blue-tinted glasses I look through. I believe I even got called out on the live forum last night. A place I gave up a long time ago and certainly not when I'm stood in the stands.

I've never hidden from not rating Keane and at 29, the phrase containing Leopard and changing spots springs to mind. Although I too will forever be grateful for that deft finish against Palace. Davies isn't where we want to be, but right now he's a decent squad member.

Not wanting to further insult your great intelligence but, having highlighted they both played in all of our worst defeats over 6 years, let's flip it and look at the other side: our best results.

This season's biggest win was v Palace – were they both in the team? No. Last season's was v Brentford? Did they both play? No.

Did they both play in Rafa's three early-season wins last season? No. When Rafa beat Arsenal? No.

When Carlo won at Spurs, Leeds or Arsena, were they both in the line-up? No.

Where they both in the starting line-up when Dunc beat Chelsea? Nope.

In fact, the only noteworthy win they both started in the last 5 years was Liverpool.

So, if a pairing are always involved in our worst defeats and that pairing is absent in our best results over 5 years, then that rather looks like a trend.

Also, Keane cost £25 million – that's not “next to nothing”; it's more than we spent on most of our other players.

How's Tom decent? What actual attribute has he shown since that Man City goal?

Dribbling?
Passing?
Tackling?
Scoring?
Pace?

What quality does he possess ahead of any untried kid? Free transfer journeyman?

The goal v City was well over 5 years ago, in a game we scored 4. Lookman also scored but was written off (way too early). If he had scored the easy chance last night, we probably would have won. He missed the penalty at QPR last season and we went out of the competition also.

He's a liability, who's on Easy Street at Everton as "He's one of us". (Unsworth and Ferguson model...) I've a horrible feeling Gordon will end up the same.

But then I could rant about most of them.

I don't think Tom has developed into the player we thought he might. A lot of that is down to circumstance and the club's instability, in my view.

Sadly, at 24, I don't feel he's going to get much better. Squad player for where we are right now. Which isn't the best of places.

Sorry (again). I still have a football hangover. I wish it was a real hangover, but no drinks trolley on the train and taxi straight home to sleep with the dogs.

Or are we all Gumps for putting up with it?

Do you remember those old Peter Sellers Pink Panther films? Whenever I see those two on the team sheet I feel like the Herbert Lom Commissioner character who was eventually driven insane by Clouseau's incompetence. Just the same clowns like hamsters in a wheel.

I initially thought he could be a very good midfielder; lately I've believed he was a decent squad player who could "play his part when required".

But last night he was atrocious. The miss in the first half was really quite pathetic and, late in the game, he had a perfectly easy opportunity to play a release pass but it was intercepted with ease and we were back under pressure! The game was already lost at this point, but even so…

Like Kieran said, he offers nothing in terms of passing or dribbling and he's certainly not a ball-winner or goalscorer. And that corner at the end of the first half was infuriatingly bizarre!!

We were fuckin losing with 30 seconds to play and he takes a short corner when he's not even left-footed, meaning, when he got the ball back, he wasn't in a position to actually do anything with it besides lose possession as his body shape was all wrong! It was just plain incompetence.

I'd happily play Mills or Warrington over him from now on.

It doesn't make him great but there were plenty of other mistakes in that performance. I'd still play Davies ahead of Doucoure or Onana.

Good call on Farrelly a poor player. Like Stracqualursi, Drenthe, Van der Myede, Niasse, Chadwick, Velios, Max Moore, he has a moment or two for his highlight reel but we quickly said "Thanks very much" and moved him on as his general performances were poor. We didn't keep him around for 6 or 7 years.

Davies is here for two reasons. The first being that around half a billion pounds has been spent on upgrades and they have have all failed.

The second one is easy. He is cheap as chips (always welcome at a badly run club) and a steady stream of managers have trusted him to fill in and do what he is told.

He hasnt been a regular first choice. If He is in the starting line-up it's because it's an already weakened one. Somebody/s is unavailable.

He gets games in competitions the club has long since abandoned to keep him ticking over. Just in case. He is unlikely to win you a match. Ever. Most Evertonians know that

Tom Davies doesn't have much more to offer than bravery and honest endeavour. He only ever does what it says on the tin.

Some clearly don't understand that and choose to hate on him, both throughout a match and long after its over. for me that says more about them than him. How can people watch such desperate team performance as last night and still keep coming back to attack the same source ? Talk about blinkered.

People can make ridiculous claims about Davies and Keane costing four managers their jobs.

But they are going to be scratching their heads wondering who to blame if we lose on Saturday and Frank is dismissed

"Tom Davies doesn't have much more to offer than bravery and honest endeavour."

Neither of which are or have been in evidence for years. The short corner last night, the pass to Mina when he was on to score, the weak pass of a shoot he should have buried a few weeks ago.

As for Frank I won't be scratching my head who is to blame if he is sacked.

We have a Davies... Mina... Keane or Holgate – you pays your money,you take your choice!

Funnily enough, I didn't have a reaction in mind. I was just posting an opinion based on specific data relating to who plays when we win and who plays when we lose over a 6-year period.

Thanks for playing.

We've tried to move him on. We started the Southampton and Newcastle rumours to tempt them into an £8M(!!!) offer but they knew something that everyone knows (except maybe Dave) that he's nowhere close to being a Premier League player.

Even by the law of averages he should have done something noteworthy in 7 years, but he's even too shite to earn a once-in-a-blue-moon slice of luck. In any properly run club, he'd be demoted to cutting up the oranges, but he'd probably fuck that up too.

As for Keane, he's shite too.

I'll reiterate, I think Tom Davies is a decent (not great) squad player, who has suffered with the instability at the club. It's affected his development.

I think Ross Barkley wasn't coached properly as a youngster and then there seemed to be an attitude / off field issue. That affected his development

I think Jack Rodwell was played in the wrong position and not coached correctly. He was a ball playing centre back in my opinion. He seemed to not enjoy football. Those factors affected his development as much as injury.

I think Michael Keane is an honest footballer who gives his all but has his flaws in his game that he has never has and probably will never iron out.

It's not that they're "shite". I can't say that as they've played a way higher standard of football than me. It's the circumstances and coaching as much as the natural natural ability that have contributed to how far they could have and possibly should have gone.

I have to say, I would like to understand how some can be suspended or moderated on here, when others seem to be able to rant at will. I apparently even got a mention on the live forum yesterday. I don't go there having given it a swerve for a few years now. Likewise I won't be there on Saturday when I'm back at the Vitality.

I'll probably get a yellow for that one, but had to say it!

Michael Keane must have confidence in his ability, otherwise I'm not sure he could have phoned Gareth Southgate, to ask him why he wasn't in his England squad. But whenever I watch Keane play, I've never seen a player who looks confident on the pitch, and that's the only place that really matters when it's your job.

Rumours flying around about trouble in the changing rooms after yesterday's game, but I'm not sure the players have got enough fight in themselves for this to be true…

In his first five full seasons, he averaged 30 appearances per season. I am sure that, if he'd been good enough, he would have made it.

I don't see club instability as a factor when he was featuring that much. He just lacked pace and ability.

You'll have to do better than “shite” to get a yellow, try a bit harder!!

But I am never, ever happy to see him on the pitch. He simply has nothing to offer. "Bravery and honest endeavour", yes, certainly, but that is the barest minimum expectation for a professional footballer. (Notwithstanding that many don't bother to produce it.)

It isn't just the lack of physical ability that drives me crazy about him... it's the mental mistakes. He has cost us games with missed defensive assignments, with foolish fouls, with poor passing decisions in midfield that brought counterattacks in return.

I wouldn't necessarily have expected him to score that goal on Tuesday -- not after such a long rusty stretch on the bench -- but at age 24 in his 167th appearance, I would expect him to at least make wise, composed decisions on the ball. It doesn't really happen.

I don't blame the club for extending his contract 4 years ago. There seemed to be a possibility he would develop, and it's not big money by Premier League standards. But I would expect him to be sold this summer.

Was that the City game when he made that weak shot that turned into an assist for Lukaku but we all pretended it went over the line as we didn't realize he'd be a long-term charity case?

I just checked to see if it was 80 yards he ran, or was it just the 70 before he deftly lifted over the keeper? Yep, it was 80.

I think you'll need to be a bit patient waiting for him to go though. Many believe the fans turned against Koeman and they also hounded out Sam and Rafa. However "irrefutable proof" has emerged that Tom Davies (assisted by Keane) drove out our last four managers.

The word on the street is that they are after a five-timer. Apparently the bookies have got Frank odds-on to go before either of them.

All very well people saying "See this through and we will be okay". But when you're detached, sitting on a yacht, maybe getting a bit twitchy looking at the table again, it is very different to our reality when he has so much riding in our survival.

Hope I'm wrong... most us want Frank to get through this.

We won't have to sell him as he will be out of contract. Hopefully if we leave him outside, the rag and bone man will take him.

Rob, you're correct, thank you.

Dave #34, Tom also ran about 70 yards for the goal I'm talking about, April 2017 against Leicester. He sprinted past about eight people to support Super Kev, who was pulled down, and Tom picked up the loose ball and slotted it neatly past Schmeichel. It was a fantastic effort, and we all know the young man has never lacked for effort.

I got to meet him the following week and wanted to tell him what it had meant to me, but he was really shy, only 18 then. So I just said Hello.

When I spoke to him myself, I thought the kid was a very good listener, and if anyone doesn't think that playing for so many different managers, whilst coming mid-table or worse every season, hasn't had a detrimental effect on every young player at the club (bar Calvert-Lewin maybe?) then this surprises me.

His miss the other night was absolutely appalling imo though, he'd already sent the keeper, and only had to take another step forward, remain calm and simply pass it into the open goal. Surely this is the one of the main reasons why footballers train?

Never forget that as young players Tarkowski was the reserve for Keane and Mee at Burnley. Davies was the great hope, and the Man City goal did exist.

We are quick to condemn certain players at Goodison. Centuries ago, Derek Temple was condemned as over-rated, nicknamed "Shirley", because he wasn't Hickson or Harris, but reinvented himself as a winger and became a Goodison hero. Mick Buckley was hounded out and, in recent years, Jeffers, Ball (Michael), Rodwell and Barkley have been the objects of abuse.

Gordon is obviously in a limbo after his elevation to £60 million player and is frustrated and angry in his every action. Few players have the mental strength of Iwobi who has moved from zero to hero in recent months. Crowds are not sympathetic to players who are injury prone or have a run of three bad games.

Players, like most of us in our jobs, need empathy and encouragement, carrots rather than sticks. Centuries ago in "Football Monthly" John McAdam said the Everton crowd was the hardest and least sympathetic in the League, I was about 12 at the time and didn't believe it; now, I think he had a point.

As far as the miss goes, yeah, we only pay him to practice five days a week.

I went to a meeting some years ago where Colin Powell, the ex-General and US Secretary of State, was speaking about motivating people to be better performers. But the first thing he said is that you can get frustrated as people struggle to perform despite tough love, arm round the shoulder, pep talks, whatever.

This, as he said, "is because some people are just losers. You can't help them. Get them out of your life."

They aren't world beaters but have put it all out on the pitch whilst in a blue shirt.

£25m is a fraction of the £500m wasted. Whilst Mina was bought for £27m and isn't capable of running through a wet paper bag, Keane was wearing a boot 2 sizes too big due to a foot injury. A fractured skull was soon to follow oh and a vital goal about 6 months ago!

Davies the local lad must have seen off at least £100m worth of midfielders in his time with us. With well over 100 appearances for the blues under about 7 different managers, there must be a reason why he keeps getting appearances?

Maybe these two are the modern day Mick Lyons and Ronny Goodlass just honest pros that played for the blues.

I think some fans of most clubs have gelled into critical cliques for and against certain of their players ever since football began. That said, Keane and Davies have never consistently impressed as reliable players in my opinion.

They're bog-standard at best......

.......But way more productive and successful than the two total tossers who are still driving OUR club into oblivion after seven ruinous years, and in one of their case's, for more than 20 years beforehand.

Cheers mate. I hope the folks down in NZ are taking good care of you and you’re feeling better

The author of the article claims he is merely giving opinion, but, for me, this concerted effort has something a little more unsavoury to it than that. He repeatedly focused on these two on the Match day thread and has come back to this thread a dozen times. Is that what People who are merely giving an opinion do ?

I would suggest this "article" may have been penned by somebody playing to what he thought would be a ready made Lynch mob.

Both Tom Davies and Michael Keane are honest professionals. They're not up to the level we need. Not often enough anyway. They need to be moved on and probably will be, but when they look back on their careers. they can look back with the certain knowledge that they have scored goals for this club that they (and many an Evertonian ) will take to their graves.

When I saw this article I felt compelled to respond, but having seen the desperate attempts to shout down down even mild support and decry TD's goal against City. I now realise I am deep into pinch of salt territory.

Mike.

I haven't lived in Liverpool for over thirty years. Visits home are fleeting. I kiss the family, hug friends, watch the match and I head back.

The city has its fair share of wrong'uns. But I would recognise the generosity of soul you so beautifully describe in my sleep. It is deeply engrained into the fabric of the city.

A big well done to all concerned and a special one to the people from other parts of the country who have taken this club to their hearts.

Your story and the ensuing thread has just made my Friday spring even springier Mike. It's beautiful

And for whoever it was having a pop at Onana, the difference is that Onana has played about 20-plus first-team games, Davies is not far off 200 first-team games,

Onana is named in the Belgian squad for the World Cup; Davies can count himself lucky to make the bench for Everton. That miss the other night was absolutely shocking,

I don't care if he's a blue or local or is on minimal wages, the lad is bang average and contributes absolutely sweet fuck-all on the pitch.

When he was clean through last season away at Man Utd in the closing minutes, only to square the ball for Yerry Mina who was unfortunately in an offside position. A few more steps forward and Tom Davies scores.

That the other night was insane. He didn't just put it high and wide, he blasted it high and wide. Again another step or two and he almost walks the ball in. The goalie was almost on his knees fearing the worst.

I'm sure there are other occasions when he has had panic attacks when in front of goal, but I can't think of any at the moment.

Lynch mob? Far from it. I used specific data to support my opinion as I realize others disagree. I don't except everyone to agree and if everyone did agree on everything, ToffeeWeb wouldn't need to exist.

Moreover, I realize that nothing I say on here has any effect on the people running the club, much less a lynch mob.

Yes, I also talked about these two on the match thread because they were crap and I'm sick of watching them be crap over the last 6 years. Since you yourself conceded they're not good enough for us, I'm not even sure what your actual disagreement is.

Rob; I'll message you and see you there. See you all there blues. In person, in spirit or whatever way you are following.

You are not merely giving an opinion. You are bearing false witness. Making up stuff in an attempt to besmirch two men who have only ever given their all for this club. You did the same with Gordon recently, peddling stories you read in a notoriously tatty tabloid.

The claim that these men have cost four managers their jobs is beyond ludicrous. Both performed reasonably well for Koeman despite the mediocrity surrounding them. Benitez and Big Sam were deeply unpopular appointments and were driven out by an angry fanbase in short order. Carlo left to accept a better offer. I can only assume you are claiming they lost Unsworth and Ferguson the jobs they never had in the first place.

Michael Keane was a fine centre-half. Admired and coveted. But, like every centre-back who has played for Everton or England in this era, he has lost his way.

That's another topic for another thread, but let's be very, very clear here. Without Keane's drive, determination and skill in the Palace game, you and every other Evertonian would be watching Championship football right now.

Keane's drop in form, lapses of confidence and concentration have most definitely blotted his copybook, the criticism has been justified., But the guy has given everything to this club. He has played through horrific injury, including a broken head. Anybody trying to ridicule him in the way you are doing here will always draw a response from me.

Everyone knows when a player is p!aying badly. not least the player himself. No good can come of distorting or exaggerating what is already a problem for the club. No good can come from angrily denying the good things they have managed to do.

If this is coming between you and your sleep, don't resort to counting sheep. Try counting all the Man City players Tom Davies left trailing in his wake leading up to the goal you are so childishly denying him credit for.