Everton fan guilty of shouting anti-Semitic abuse at Spurs supporters

07/03/2023 143comments  |  Jump to last

Everton fan Neil McManniman has been found guilty of shouting anti-Semitic abuse and making hissing sounds referring to Nazi gas chambers during the side's 0-0 draw against Tottenham Hotspur in November 2021.

The 46-year-old, of Kirkby, was convicted of religiously aggravated harassment at Liverpool Crown Court. The court heard that McManniman also had a previous conviction for shouting racist abuse at Goodison Park. He was given a suspended nine-month prison sentence and was banned from football matches for five years.

» Read the full article at BBC News

Reader Comments (143)

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Ernie Baywood
2 Posted 07/03/2023 at 09:53:15
While this is terrible... I take some comfort in my memories of Spurs coming to Goodison 20+ years ago.

You'd have had to arrest half of the Street end. We wouldn't have been alone in that.

So things are changing at a rapid rate.

Martin Mason
4 Posted 07/03/2023 at 11:02:28
Why though should you be allowed to break the law under cover of a football game? Why should a football ground be a place where families can't go and enjoy the game free from racists and foul mouthed adult males. Football needs to change.
Jerome Shields
5 Posted 07/03/2023 at 11:42:49
You will always get one.He probably is quite rependent now.
Brent Stephens
6 Posted 07/03/2023 at 12:06:13
Dermot, far too kind. I don’t for the life of me see how someone gets kicks or satisfaction out of making the hissing sound. Disgusting.
Barry Hesketh
7 Posted 07/03/2023 at 12:36:38
Martin @4
You're correct, a football arena, shouldn't be a haven for toxic chants or other anti-social behaviour, but sadly, it's a sign of the times in which we live.

If you happen to have a public facing job in this country, it is more than likely you will be sworn at or threatened with violence at some point in your employment, even if that employment is to help the very people who are often the perpetrators of this type of unwanted behaviour. If we can't as a society prevent that from happening on an all too regular basis, what chance is there of preventing ignorant louts acting like the man in the main story.

Anybody found guilty of anti-Semitic abuse and making hissing sounds, should be taken to the nearest military camp and experience a CS gas training exercise, that might make them think twice about their words and actions in the future.

Ray Jacques
8 Posted 07/03/2023 at 12:44:10
Five year ban from watching Everton, lucky bugger.

On a serious note, its appalling behaviour.

Andrew Ellams
9 Posted 07/03/2023 at 13:00:45
I haven't been to an away game at Spurs for many years but I do remember this being awful amongst blues and probably most other teams back in the day.
Barry Rathbone
10 Posted 07/03/2023 at 13:35:00
Football fans are the same wherever you go and always will be. 60 seconds in a football stadium confirms the lowest forms of society find sanctuary in the relative anonymity. If the authorities hadn't taken steps back in the day fans would still be running around kicking each other in the bollocks and the present day euphemism for the activity - "passion" - wouldn't be tolerated.

Racism, violence and intimidation lie incognito secretly waiting for an opportunity to pop up and say "here's Jonny" - they've never gone away and never will do..

Danny O’Neill
11 Posted 07/03/2023 at 14:09:45
We've moved on. There used to be some shocking racist chants in the 1980s and lets be honest, we were no saints. The vitriol aimed at John Barnes and the bananas thrown at him.

I still remember a person I didn't know but used to stand next to in the Gwladys Street. He used to kick off with the Everton are white chants, wore a badge on his coat with that slogan and used to get on the Amberline coach at Widnes for the away games.

Another dedicated Evertonian I knew and travelled with on many occasions, running on the pitch to throw his season ticket on the Goodison turf when we signed Amokachi.

Personally I never got involved.

There is and never has been a place for it. Race, religion, whatever, it's all about the football. Wherever you come from, whoever you are.

I can't believe in 2023 that a 46 year old can behave like that. I wouldn't excuse a teenager for that and grab them around the collar, let alone and adult and probably a father.

Rob Halligan
12 Posted 07/03/2023 at 14:21:36
Just a word of warning for anyone going to Chelsea on 18th March. You can be arrested and charged for “That Chant” aimed at Chelsea fans. I’m sure you know which one I mean.
Mike Gaynes
13 Posted 07/03/2023 at 14:48:15
I thought I was pretty much up to speed on anti-Semitic abuse, but I've never heard about the hissing. Is this a British thing?
Kevin Molloy
14 Posted 07/03/2023 at 14:51:22
The action itself is foul, but what worries me about this more is what it signifies for our future. This is the thin end of the wedge, they know they have the power to regulate individual people's behaviour and they are going to use it. Soon it will be chants which contain ANY naughty words, they won't be able to stop themselves. It's a frightening path we are headed down, cos where does it end. It ends with unbearable mediocrities like Matt Hancock micromanaging everyone's life.


I think it's football fans doing what football fans do, I don't see it as football fans or English football culture being antisemitic per se. They chant vile things, but it's to enrage, I don't think there is any real animus behind it (from my view ten steps back)

Tony Abrahams
15 Posted 07/03/2023 at 14:54:56
No pyro’s, no joyful pitch invasion’s, no banter. There has long been a suspicion, that the people in high places, often use these young helpless victims, for their own gratification without prosecution, but to sing about it at the football, could see you getting locked up? (Chelsea song)

It’s a crazy upside down world, and sometimes football might be a person’s only escape.

Sometimes it’s nasty, but most of the time it’s just harmless banter, IMO, but little by little, character is slowly getting eradicated from humanity, and humans are becoming more robotic, every single year.

Tony Abrahams
16 Posted 07/03/2023 at 14:57:22
I don’t know if it’s a British thing Mike, because if a 46 year old man, is hissing and trying to make the noise of a gas chamber, then he’s obviously not the full shilling. Not everyone is, but please don’t take madness out of this world!!
Barry Hesketh
17 Posted 07/03/2023 at 15:24:02
Germany circa 1933, that truly was political correctness gone mad and currently Russia might be treading a similar path.

Asking people to stop chanting extremely horrible chants or asking them to stop making noises that offend many people, that's the very least a civilised society should ask. Freedom of expression doesn't need to abuse others in order to make a point or have a 'bit of banter'.

Alan McGuffog
18 Posted 07/03/2023 at 15:27:10
In no way, shape or form would I defend the actions of this individual. But if anyone believes that such abhorrent behaviour is new or recent needs to have another think. Having been attending Goodison since 1961 I have witnessed the most boorish behaviour imaginable.
In the early sixties grown men scrapping it out with Stoke fans in the Park End. Bottles being thrown on the pitch. Homophobic, sexist, racist chanting. Jesus wept I was actually pissed on by the bloke behind me at the 71 semi final.
The only real change is that seating stadia and cctv make it possible to isolate and identify the knuckle draggers.
Football grounds have always been a stage for some of the worst in behaviour although most people, thankfully, have moved on.
Kevin Molloy
19 Posted 07/03/2023 at 15:43:15
Barry, nobody likes those chants, I'm not against the stewards slinging out anyone who carries on like that. But we are looking at 100 people who chant 'Chelsea rent boy' at a football match now all being up in court charged with hate crimes. And that's where we are now, what will it look like in a couple of years, Will police go back through the archives to charge the crowd at Goodison of hating on the obese after Wayne was told he was fat?
with utter fools in charge it's a grim prospectus.
Eddie Dunn
20 Posted 07/03/2023 at 16:04:16
Danny I am always amused when folk mention the current date, ie "in 2023" as if things are always improving on the planet Earth!
They certainly aren't in terms of EFC.
I wish it was 1985, I'd be looking forward to going to Rotterdam and I would only be 24 years old!
Danny O’Neill
21 Posted 07/03/2023 at 16:11:29
As I said above, it just needs nipping in the bud and taking a bit of responsibility.

We could get offended with the "you Scouse bastards", "going home to a shithole" chants and to cap it off the "we pay your benefits" chants we are regularly subject to.

There is obviously a line that shouldn't be crossed, but without wanting to dismiss any out of order behaviour, a bit like coming on here, you have to accept you're at a football match and the vast majority of those in attendance are well behaved.

Those who step over the line will get dealt with. Often by those around them before the stewards or police get to them.

I was 14 Eddie!! You've got 10 years on me.

David Currie
22 Posted 07/03/2023 at 16:12:30
Will Chelsea fans be arrested and charged for their chant at Everton fans that they always sing " Sign On''? Mocking people who have no job, which is the worst chant?
Allen Rodgers
23 Posted 07/03/2023 at 16:43:05
Spurs fans have been told repeatedly not to sing Yid Army but they still do home and away. The FA say that it's is offensive to some people but some Jewish people disagree.
Eddie Dunn
24 Posted 07/03/2023 at 16:44:06
Danny -I hope you didn't drink too much over there!
Andrew Taylor
25 Posted 07/03/2023 at 16:50:56
Glad to see tolerance of this is ending. The sins of the past do not excuse the behaviour of today. Racism and homophobia are not remotely the same as banter or being rude about Wayne Rooney. And yes, it's worse than singing 'Sign On...', however foul and ignorant that chant is too.

If you're in any doubt, the law has fixed it for you - racism and homophobia are hate speech; they attack people's own identity and sense of self. Chants about poverty and obesity are not – they are just moronic low-grade shite.

Sadly, I have witnessed this stuff far, far more than I've ever seen anyone being called out for it. History proves Evertonians, and all football fans, will not police themselves.

John Bourne
26 Posted 07/03/2023 at 16:52:41
Personally I feel that this individual just needs to be educated, perhaps spending a day or two with the Israeli Defence Force would help in this regard, I feel certain they would be very understanding and take good care of him.
Dave Lynch
27 Posted 07/03/2023 at 17:32:49
Referencing a holocaust that murdered millions of innocent men, women and children and inflicted great pain mentally and physically, perpetrated by sadistic, evil individuals is extremely different to what amounts to taking the piss out of scousers.
John Bourne
28 Posted 07/03/2023 at 17:35:29
Dave Lynch @29,

100 percent with you, we must never forget what happened to those people.

Ray Roche
29 Posted 07/03/2023 at 17:53:05
Just for debate, if Spurs fans use the word ‘Yid’, and they’re not Jewish is that an offence? Can only Jewish Spurs fans sing ‘Yid Army?

Why is that more offensive than if an opposition supporter uses that word. Is it the word that’s offensive? I remember a song from my childhood called ‘My Yiddisher Momma’, is that consigned to the scrap heap now?

Likewise if a black person use the ‘N’ word is it ok? Or is it the word that is offensive? The N word is used regularly by rappers so if the rapper is white can he sing the same song as a black rapper or not? The waters getting muddier by the minute. I’m confused.

Michael Lynch
30 Posted 07/03/2023 at 18:14:09
The word "yid" is a derogatory term whoever uses it, unless they are Jewish themselves, same as a black person using the N word.

Spurs fans are basically talking shit when they say they are "reclaiming the word" unless they themselves are Jewish. And the vast, vast majority of Spurs fans are not Jewish.

It's a sign of ridiculous hypocrisy that Spurs aren't fined and threated with playing behind closed doors every time their fans sing that song.

I can't make it for our home game against Spurs but, if you hear them singing Yid Army, can I ask you to report it to both clubs as a racial slur please? They might ignore it, but as fans we shouldn't let that stop us highlighting how offensive it is until action is taken against the Spurs fans,

Pete Neilson
31 Posted 07/03/2023 at 18:14:36
Andrew (25) not sure if you’re aware that this incident was dealt with because a supporter reported him to a steward. I’ve seen similar supporter “self policing” a couple of times over the past ten years or so. One involving a racist at an away game at Burnley and more recently a lad at Goodison screaming abuse at Mykolenko saying his legs should be blown off (and much worse). Both dealt with immediately. These incidents are pretty rare now, still completely unacceptable, but to say that supporters don’t self police is completely wrong.
Eddie Dunn
32 Posted 07/03/2023 at 18:26:50
On the Yid question, I have old chums who follow Spurs, season ticket holders for many years, one is Jewish, most of his family wiped-out, from Czechoslovakia, and another mate who is married to a Jew and grew up in Hampton Garden Suberb, in North London, a very Jewish environment.
Both these fellers think it is fine to sing "Yid army" and are happy for all home fans to chant it.
Unfortunately, we seem to have lots of people being offended on other people's behalf these days.
As for the hissing thing - I only became aware of it when reading something a couple of years ago, about Chelsea fans doing it at the Lane.
As for chants about disasters...well it is just a way to make your enemy cross, is it not? Bad taste? Of course.
I have seen videos of EFC fans in the Anny Rd End making wall-pushing gestures.
Unfortunately, chants at individual players, fat, bald, sex-offender etc can obviously be funny.
I recall thinking that the Mary Brown song aimed at Tommy Doc was particularly hilarious when I was 17, when he was managing Derby and he was banging the physio's missus.
Today, at 62, I certainly wouldn't sing it.

Andrew Taylor
33 Posted 07/03/2023 at 19:30:22
Pete (33) yes, I had heard this came from reporting by fans to a steward. It feels like the tide is turning. Have to say, I've heard it far more often than I've heard of it being reported and dealt with, hence my comment. It used to be that if reported often nothing would happen - that is now changing too thankfully.

I have also sat in the away end at White Hart Lane and cringed as many so-called Evertonians hissed, in the full knowledge it was an undetectable crime hidden by sheer numbers. I seem to remember that game where the Yak bust his achilles was a bad night for it. I think it was the same game where a banner some fella had brought in was confiscated by their stewards for remarking on the fact that Sammy Lee drinks his own urine. Bad taste banter, maybe - but racist or homophobic it was not.

On the 'Yid' stuff, it's really not that hard. It's wrong, of course, and some Spurs fans are 'confused' just because they've always done it and/or don't want to change. Doesn't really matter if they're Jewish or not - (some) Spurs fans don't get to dictate or define what's racist language that's been used offensively towards an entire people. It's one thing that David Baddiel is good on – he did a whole thing about the term and its use at Spurs - if you're that bothered or really that confused then you'd do well to look it up.

Ray Roche
34 Posted 07/03/2023 at 19:55:20
Michael Lynch @32
“ The word "yid" is a derogatory term whoever uses it, unless they are Jewish themselves, same as a black person using the N word.”
I must take you to task here Michael, if a word is offensive it’s offensive regardless of who says it. If one hundred people sing “Yid Army” at you, how do you detect the Gentile? Ask him to show you his willy?
One half of that ‘choir’ can’t be wrong and one half right.
Same with the ‘N’ word. A radio sees no colour. If the word is used by a rapper how do you know what colour the singer, and I use the term singer loosely, is? You can’t suddenly be offended when you are aware of the ethnicity of the singer. No, it’s the word that is offensive or it’s not, regardless of the singer’s colour.
For the record, in 1964 I became an indentured apprentice cabinet maker in a small cabbies shop in Benson St and half the cabbies were Jewish. I had as much respect and affection for those lads as I have had for any work colleagues since. No anti-semitism here. I owed them a lot.👍🏻
Andrew James
35 Posted 07/03/2023 at 20:54:07
Sadly, a slang term like "Yid" or "Scouser" becomes pejorative and then ends up being regarded as negative and used against said groups who hear the words used in a negative and toxic context by those who lazily fire them their way.

The recipients often try to control the narrative – like Spurs fans (most of whom aren't actually Jewish from my experience) or reclaim a word which is considered offensive. The latter takes us into Spike Lee v Quentin Tarantino territory.

The hissing stuff is another level but has been going on for years, especially when Chelsea face Spurs. It is, as many have said, utterly sick and twisted.

Unfortunately, there are football "fans" who do horrible things which are incomprehensible. Man Urd fans baiting Liverpool about 1989 and our loveable neighbours doing airplane impressions...

I suspect the football ground enables keyboard warriors their only place to express their abhorrent views which they'd be too scared to do on the street or in the pub. The mob mentality feeds into that.

Danny O’Neill
36 Posted 07/03/2023 at 21:16:23
I go to football to watch Everton.

Yes there is banter, but there are boundaries.

On the self-policing thing, it does happen. Sometimes I think it is a bit unnecessary as supporters will report fans to stewards just because they're in the wrong end to get them ejected.

I had a few stern words with a couple of Palace fans when I inadvertently got diverted into the lower Bullens in the away section last season. They stepped over a line and were out of order, so I told them so.

I could have put myself in a situation, but we have principles. They were shocked but we all ended up friends by the end.

The stewards, who had put me there instead of the Upper Bullens gave me a pat on the back and told them to get back to their seats. And me as well obviously.

Eric Myles
37 Posted 08/03/2023 at 05:04:41
Mike #13, it's a reference to the gas chambers of the German concentration camps, Spurs traditional supporters supposedly being Jewish.

Don't know why though, maybe the area of London they originated in?

Eric Myles
38 Posted 08/03/2023 at 05:12:36
I thought Yiddish is a language, not a race?
Danny O’Neill
39 Posted 08/03/2023 at 06:25:36
Yes, Eric. Traditionally their support came from North London, where a lot of areas where populated with Jewish people, so that is where they drew their support from.

I suppose you could compare it to traditionally Everton's following being predominantly Irish Catholics from the north of the city.

Tottenham have a history of owners and board members who were Jewish.

Obviously times change as have the demographics of their support, but it's a historical thing.

And yes again Eric. Yiddish is a language. It's closely related to German. In fact, even though my German is rusty these days, if you speak German, you can pick out the odd word or sentence.

Colin Glassar
40 Posted 08/03/2023 at 07:27:28
I believe it was the Lazio “ultras” who started this hissing shit. They proudly show(ed) off their banners at home games referencing gas chambers and ovens (Lazio being a fascist stronghold in Rome) especially in games against Roma and Napoli for some reason.

Anyway, my point being, we seem to copy everything (good and bad) these days. What happened to being original or unique? Just a bunch of ignorant sheeple who can’t think for themselves and find humour in other people’s misfortunes. Pathetic.

Danny O’Neill
41 Posted 08/03/2023 at 07:54:08
Now we're on a historical journey Colin. Forgive me for taking this one.

Remember Di Canio's "salute" to the Lazio supporters?

There is history in that region and I experienced first hand it when I lived in the Lazio state. Rome is and enclave city region surrounded by.Lazio.

The background is that it was marshland that was reclaimed by a project instigated by Mussolini. The 3 main towns of Pomezia, Aprilla and Latina (where I lived) emerged as a result of that project.

And although I left in 2002, in my experience, there was still a lot of admiration for Mussolini for developing the area, particularly with the Lazio supporters.

I'm off on a tangent, but having lived there and gone to watch both teams at the Olympico on a few occasions, I much preferred the Roma supporters. Interestingly, they tended to be predominantly from the city. The Lazio ones tended to be from the surrounding areas, including where I lived, which was a bit of a Lazio hotbed.

John Bourne
42 Posted 08/03/2023 at 08:20:51
There can be no excuse for anyone behaving in such a manner, I have already said, hand them over to the IDF (or even better to the Sayeret Matkal) let's see how brave these people are then.

I take comfort from the fact that what happened to the Jewish people during WW2, will never happen again, they will simply turn anyone who tries into glass.

John Bourne
43 Posted 08/03/2023 at 08:25:13
Danny O'Neill @43,

You are certainly a well travelled and interesting man.

Eric Myles
44 Posted 08/03/2023 at 08:33:45
So if Yiddish is a language, Yid iintrinsically does not have a racial connotation, it merely denotes someone who speaks the language, much like a Dane or a Pole, or maybe more relevant, a Scot since it's a dialect. Anyway I've always heard a K word in relation to Jewish persons but have no idea of the origins.

Coincidentally while reading this thread I'm actually wearing a shirt advertising the manufacturer of xyclon B.

Danny O’Neill
45 Posted 08/03/2023 at 08:34:40
Thank you John. When I look back, I have had some experiences!!

Sadly, it did happen again in the former Yugoslavia, and I saw that first hand too in Bosnia.

It is going on all around the world. Try Afghanistan, which we have washed our hands of.

I think the majority of us here only realise it when it's on our doorstep.

Putin's campaign in the Ukraine is possibly the closest we've come to what happened in WW2.

I love how we can have these discussions on an Everton website.

Ray Roche
46 Posted 08/03/2023 at 09:18:37
Eric, ironically the research that led to the invention of Zyklon B was Jewish.

‘Fritz Haber, was the Jewish chemist whose scientific research led to the invention of Zyklon B, the cyanide-based pesticide used in death camps'.

If only he had known where his research would end up.

John Bourne
47 Posted 08/03/2023 at 09:27:55
Danny @47,

If you saw it first hand in Bosnia then that certainly qualifies as an experience, though not a pleasant one I am sure.

Yes Afghanistan is a disaster, so many gave their lives, but the politicians always have the final say, to their eternal shame.

Ukraine has to be a red line for the West; Putin must be stopped, whatever the risk. I recently heard that Putin was warned by NATO that if he deployed a single tactical battlefield nuclear device in Ukraine, then NATO would destroy all Russian units in Ukraine, scary thought.

It takes my mind off Everton, lol. Whenever I think that Everton are finished, I read your posts and take comfort from your never-say-die attitude!

Andrew Taylor
48 Posted 08/03/2023 at 09:29:59
Eric (46),

The antecedence of the word is not really what's important, is it? It became a racial epithet intended to offend a race of people, and is rightly treated as such. It's not that confusing or new.

Michael Lynch
49 Posted 08/03/2023 at 10:11:44

Yiddish is indeed a language, and one spoken by my late grandmother. But if anyone called her, or me, a 'yid', they would find themselves in a world of pain.

Pakistan is a country, but I hope you would never call someone a Paki?

Danny O’Neill
50 Posted 08/03/2023 at 10:40:25
It's interesting Dave.

Krauts and Frogs. Some Germans refer to us in the UK as Insel Affe (Island Monkeys).

We are stereotyped all over the country who apparently pay our benefits.

There is obviously no room for racism or abuse.

I don't get offended when someone calls me a Scouser or a Catholic. Proud of both.

I guess the term 'Yid' has become derogatory. Like being called a Fenian or Taig.

Raymond Fox
51 Posted 08/03/2023 at 10:46:46
We are sometimes called Brits, Limeys etc, I don't take offence at them – why should I?

This politically correct stuff is going way over the top, it's when they are used in a derogatory context that they can become objectionable.

Dale Rose
52 Posted 08/03/2023 at 11:18:33
Football can unite as the universal game. With that universal game comes all the bigotry and baggage. Sad fact of life.

I don't condone it but there are many who get swept up in the hysteria, who – in the cold light of day – would never behave or have views like that. Mob mentality...

Andrew Grey
53 Posted 08/03/2023 at 11:24:01
John (44),

'I take comfort from the fact that what happened to the Jewish people during WW2, will never happen again, they will simply turn anyone who tries into glass.'

Unfortunately humans don't learn and some just don't want too. There are many cases of attempted genocide which have happened after WW2.

Rwanda, Bosnia, Congo (Hutus), Darfur, Cambodia, Rohingya to name but a few. We even have the state of Israel and their newly elected right-wing government containing a minister calling for the wiping out of Palestinians!

ps: Just ready Danny's post (47) sorry to repeat and go on!


Eddie Dunn
54 Posted 08/03/2023 at 11:30:33
Really, we have to not take some things too literally.

When I sing "And we'll hang those Kopites, one by one, on the banks of the Royal Mblue Mersey", I don't really mean my sister-in-law or my late father-in-law or my late uncles and grandad or most of my cousins.

Mind yo,u I probably would have hung Emlyn Hughes, Jimmy Case and John Aldridge.

Dale Self
55 Posted 08/03/2023 at 13:30:24
Is there a ‘Yid’ immigration problem I'm not aware of? This meeds a bit of a reset not an open door to any associated grievances.

Those defending the banter that might include that term should state clearly if they are okay with either escalation of negative banter or the victims should just understand and take it. Or is there some other dynamic to that?

Pete Clarke
57 Posted 08/03/2023 at 13:41:57
There's hatred everywhere and it's usually historic boundary issues that have caused it. The religious or racial side of things is just an excuse to get abusive or violent or, in this lad's case, it's probably ale and stupidity.

On the subject of Israel. I spent a few months there in my backpacking days in the '80s. Most of the people who lived and worked on Kibbutz Dvir (down in the Negev Desert) were from broken Jewish backgrounds in South America. We played footy and basketball everyday with the lads and also got on great with the beautiful girls. It really felt like I was in Europe rather than the Middle East.

When asking about them being in the army, they clammed up and said it was just a job they had to do. Some of the Israelis would even take us to Bedouin parties because they lived nearby and traded with them.

These Israelis were immigrants and they had no dislike for the Palestinians but knew their job was to remove them from their homes and establish a greater Israel. Once they are in the army, they never fully leave and, as a country, they cannot afford to make peace. The Palestinians in return truly hate the Israelis for what they have done to them and it's completely understandable.

I really loved the people we met there and kept in touch for many years but my thoughts are always with those poor Palestinian people who have been forced out of their homeland.

I met a scouse lad over here in Australia a few years ago who had family that were Jewish and they were hounded out of Liverpool because of their religion. They had not long escaped from the tragedy unfolding in Europe during the war too so how bad must that have been?

Living in Australia is beautiful but there's plenty of racial slurs thrown around on a daily basis here with “fakkin' Pommie barsted” being one of favorites… but luckily, mostly said in jest.

Danny O’Neill
58 Posted 08/03/2023 at 13:51:12
Peter, I served with a few Australians over the years. Some of their remarks and views about the native Australians were eye-opening to say the least.

Greatest keeper and one of our best midfielders as well as a 40-goal season striker doesn't make them any more a political judge than you or I, Brian.

Good debate and kept sensible despite differences of views, but it will be good to get back to the football.

Eric Myles
59 Posted 08/03/2023 at 14:32:34
Michael #49, but Pakistani is not a language, they speak mainly Urdu among other dialects, none of which could be called Paki.

Andrew #48, yes I think the origin of the word is important. Remember the "bollocks" obscenity case of the Sex Pistols that was thrown out because 'bollocks' is not an obscenity and could be traced back to monks' writings centuries ago?

Joe McMahon
60 Posted 08/03/2023 at 14:47:00
Eric#71, that's not true. I work in the NHS.
Eric Myles
61 Posted 08/03/2023 at 14:52:38
To add to #69, I have referred to Pakistani co-workers as Baluchi, as that's where they were from and the language that they spoke. And what they described themselves as.
Eric Myles
62 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:01:31
Danny #72, yes I have heard that about the Pashtun in Afghanistan from friends who were there.
Andrew Ellams
63 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:15:53
Eric, that's just not true. There were shortages in the NHS and social care system pre vaccinations because so many of the migrant workers that were the lifeblood of those sectors left the country after the Brexit vote.
Bill Gall
64 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:19:12
Well if you would like to bring in discrimination into the discussion, how about the way people who are born in England work all their life in England and decide to join their children and grandchildren in one of the commonwealth countries, their pension that they worked all their life for is frozen. They can go to most other countries in the world including Europe and receive upgrades, but not in commonwealth countries. that is being discriminated against
Dale Self
65 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:24:09
Danny, I wasnt looking for conflict so thanks gor that response. I don’t think I need to remind anyone where I’m at on the spectrum. My point of engaging this is to point out what you did; Things are quite hot right now and the last thing we want is for those who’ve held back to let it rip now.

Also to be a logic mom, you don't really get to shade one inappropriate term with etymological justifixation and then claim contextual criticism of another. Everyone gets back from the line or there is no line and stop talking about one. It’s one or the other. I could make a non-binary anti-CIS joke to light things up but I will respectfully refrain.

I got an idea, let’s talk about football.

Dave Abrahams
66 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:29:16
I’m not taking part in the debate going on in this thread but on the No. 19 bus this morning an old fella with a walking stick hobbled along the bus to get off in Breckfield Road, he asked the lady driver where such a place was, he spoke English with difficulty and the lady couldn’t understand him, a Scotsman tried to help the foreigner but he couldn’t make any sense out of him either, then an auld Scouser sitting near the front shouted up to them “ I think he wants to know where the nearest job centre is” everyone just cracked up with laughter which lightens most arguments or debates.
Danny O’Neill
67 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:46:13
Dale, you're fine and I always like your views. I know you weren't looking for a fight. Not yours or my style. We have opinions of our own and express them. We have opinions on others' views and comment on them. We may see things differently from time to time but it would be a boring world if we didn't. As long as it doesn't get out of order and spill over, we can agree to disagree. You should hear some of the debates I have with my red cousins. You would think we were rivals, not family. Oh, that's right, we are rivals,

Dave Abrahams, that's brilliant. Did the fella get off the bus in the right place? I have to know.

I've got my bus routes wrong in the past apart from the 82C and 81D given I'm an Uber person these days. The 19 runs along Country Round right? I used to be a proper bus geek bus I'm out of touch these days.

Less than 72 hours to go.

Ed Prytherch
68 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:46:17
I am a Brit living in South Carolina and I have been here so long that people have a hard time figuring my accent. I tell them that I am an SIL - Southern Improved Limey. Who decides what is offensive and what is fun? These days "Colored" and "homosexual" are deemed offensive yet we still have the NAACP. I think it is wrong to deliberately insult other people for their ethnicity, sexuality, etc but you have to stay up to date on what is considered offensive.
Eric Myles
69 Posted 08/03/2023 at 15:50:13
Andrew #77, so knowing that there were already shortages, they didn't shoot themselves in the foot by sacking non-vaccinated workers, they shot themselves in the head!
Dave Abrahams
71 Posted 08/03/2023 at 16:01:26
Danny (83), when I looked out of the window of the bus he was walking down towards Anfield so I presumed he was another foreign Red supporter but I don’t where he was looking for I was still laughing like the rest of the bus.

No Danny the 19 doesn’t go along County Road, it comes up from town through London Road up to Everton Road then along Breckfield Road right down past Anfield Road on to Stanley Park then past Goodison Park and on to Walton Hall Avenue where I make my departure and home.

Eddie Dunn
72 Posted 08/03/2023 at 18:12:01

I love that bus story.

Danny O’Neill
73 Posted 08/03/2023 at 18:53:45
The poor man, Dave.

Maybe I'm thinking the 20?

I'm in serious danger of failing my bus exams!

Dave Abrahams
74 Posted 08/03/2023 at 19:18:52
Danny (93),

Yes the Nos 20 and 21 do go along County Road but the No 19 has always gone the same way as it does today – and when the 19 was a tramcar, remember them, Danny?

Bleedin' freezing and wet in the winter until we got The Green Goddesses. Ah, pure luxury! As Mr McMillan said, “You've never had it so good!” Was he Boris Johnson's godfather?

John Keating
75 Posted 08/03/2023 at 19:28:50

The best bus was the 101 Vauxhall circular. Just stopped whatever your house was.

My mam went to town one day from Salisbury Street to the gyratory. She bought a frozen chicken from Marks in town.
When she got home, there was no chicken in her bag!

She went outside and waited for the bus to come back and stopped it. When she went on she asked everyone if they'd seen a chicken. They all looked around until someone spotted it under a seat!

“Here it is, Betty!”

Mam went off happy and the bus went on into town.

I could tell loads of stories about singing on buses and buses making detours to drop people at homes well off track cos the singing got the bus up.

Could only happen in Liverpool!

Dave Abrahams
76 Posted 08/03/2023 at 19:46:41
John (95),

Yes, that was a killer when the 101 was taken out of circulation, the “happy bus”.

What about the last bus to Dodge City (Kirkby) on a Saturday night, singing, dancing in the aisles, the conductor stopping the bus to let people off to have a “hit and a miss” before carrying on the journey… What a trip, best part of the night!!

Danny O’Neill
77 Posted 08/03/2023 at 20:18:12
Only on here can we diverse from alleged racism, to the refugee crisis to land on hilarious Liverpool bus stories that have me laughing and smiling and looking forward to Saturday.

The chicken story is the type of thing my mother would have done John.

Great recollections. Those type of memories are the best.

John Keating
78 Posted 08/03/2023 at 20:23:16
Aye, Dave, some great laughs on the buses. No buses anywhere going near the Clock in Salisbury Street but used to stop regularly to let the singers off!

One day, my mam was full of praise for firemen? She's on a Number 3 going along Scottie, the whole bus singing, mind this is early afternoon and everyone sober.

The bus stops and the driver bails out. The bus is still singing.
Next thing, the firemen are on, and my mam is over a shoulder and off… The bloody bus was on fire!

Nobody but the driver knew!!

A million stories.

Peter Mills
79 Posted 08/03/2023 at 20:50:22
A wise man once said to me that offence cannot be given, only taken.
Danny O’Neill
80 Posted 08/03/2023 at 20:58:48
Very wise words, Peter. I think I get offended quite a lot but I have thick skin and big shoulders and tend to ignore it.

More often than not, I turn the situation around and end up being friendly with the offenders.

You know me.

Shane Corcoran
84 Posted 10/03/2023 at 20:38:43
Very good debate lads. One of the best in a while. I’m glad to see Martin and Barry’s early comments regarding spectators feeling of security in shouting any form of abuse they want from the security of the stand. This doesn’t happen in other team sports or in wider society.

It’s hilarious to see some of the Irish soccer clubs’ fans replicating what they see in the premier league as if it’s something they should do because the English do it. They even sing the same stupid songs in English accents and turn to celebrate their team scoring by giving the other fans the finger. Fascinating

Andy Crooks
85 Posted 10/03/2023 at 21:45:50
Can we not just get back to talking about buses? Dave Abrahams knows a thing or two about them. He and I were held on one as we returned to the city centre after a game. The door was opened to let a sick woman off and Dave, being much quicker than me, managed to escape.

Paul Hewitt
86 Posted 10/03/2023 at 22:30:15
Colin I agree. We deffo need 3 points tomorrow.🤞
Dave Abrahams
87 Posted 11/03/2023 at 09:54:44
Dave (204),

“They think it's all over” was Kenneth Wolstenholme (?) — I couldn't think of his name at the time and most probably spelt it wrong now!!

Tony Abrahams
88 Posted 13/03/2023 at 13:41:59
If you want words of wisdom, you should read what Marcel Brands had to say about Man Utd signing Anthony.

To be fair to Marce,l though, he should know because money definitely made him lazy – unless he just wasn't up to the job and never had enough experience of English football.

Danny O’Neill
91 Posted 13/03/2023 at 14:33:27
Yes, Paul, but we don't talk about that.

Conveniently airbrushed from history and apparently we are bitter if we mention it.

They may be cousins, but they boil my blue blood. Especially the ones down here in West London who I begrudgingly have to educate on the team they allegedly support and follow. All their lives apparently. Fuck off.

Sorry. Trip to the swear jar.

I despise them. You've started me now.

Brian Wilkinson
92 Posted 13/03/2023 at 15:18:20
This is where the world has gone mad. Okay, stick with me on this one and only two examples:

There were two people in the Big Brother house of a certain race. All the time, they kept calling each other the n-word, night after night.

"Alright nigger", where the other would reply back "Yeah, nigger."

Now that was acceptable as they were a certain race. A week later, Jade goody let it slip out, probably with constantly hearing them say it to each other, and as soon as she said it, both the other two reported it and Jade got booted out of Big Brother for using the same word as they did to each other.

Fast forward and a certain race called Jade Goody's mum a piece of white trash. No action whatsoever, but if it was said in another way, with another colour opposite to white said, they would have been up in arms and no doubt action taken.

And there lies the problem, the only people who cannot be racially abused are white people, and that is acceptable in today's world.

Kieran Kinsella
93 Posted 13/03/2023 at 15:48:26
Brian 92,

I think this typifies the craziness of the world:

Lacey Lou and Georgie Bee are two of a new vanguard of female drag artists – and have been accused of 'cultural appropriation' by male drag queens who have made their careers by dressing up as women.

The pair are among a number of women working as drag queens who are, in fact, women, reports The Telegraph.

But there has been a backlash against this new variety of live performer. Male drag artists cite women like Lacey Lou and Georgie Bee as purveyors of 'cultural appropriation'.

Brian Wilkinson
94 Posted 13/03/2023 at 16:21:46
The world's gone mad, Kieran.

I do not use the N-word, I am not racist, but if it is such a bad word, and it is, then those using it themselves as a way of communicating within their own race should also be accountable for using the word.

Gerry Quinn
95 Posted 29/03/2023 at 07:10:54
Talking of ASBO, this tickled me with reference to misbehaviour of British holiday makers in the red light district of Amsterdam...in particular a certain song being sung...

UK-based travel agencies offer stag weekends in Amsterdam, including canal boat cruises with unlimited booze, "steak and strip" nights and red light district pub crawls.

For years people have complained of drunken Brits urinating in public, throwing up in canals, stripping off and engaging in drunken brawls.

This is not a new phenomenon. Almost a decade ago, Amsterdam's then mayor invited his London counterpart Boris Johnson, who had described the city as "sleazy", to see for himself what Brits got up to.

"They don't wear a coat as they slalom through the red light district… they sing 'You'll never walk alone'. They are dressed as rabbits or priests and sometimes they are not dressed at all. I'd love to invite him to witness it,"

Mick Davies
96 Posted 07/04/2023 at 00:53:31
I disagree with the reference to gas chambers, but to criminalise religious hatred is another example of our world going backwards. Religion is NOT a race, and you can't tell someones religion from anyone else, To mock a religion is no worse than mocking Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, yet the power of religious groups is now becoming more powerful as a means of control; this is all harking back to blasphemy laws, which I thought disappeared decades ago. Religion has killed more people than any other concept in history. We are indoctrinated from birth about unfounded fairy tales, and if we're not allowed to mock it, then why?
Chelsea fans were singing sick chants about Liverpool supporters dying at Hillsboro, yet no one seems to have been arrested for that, but geographically (and politically) London and Merseyside are worlds apart
Mike Gaynes
97 Posted 07/04/2023 at 01:49:20
Mick #96, your first two sentences may be the sickest thing I've seen posted here in a long time.

11 people were massacred in the Pittsburgh synagogue my cousins formerly attended, simply because they were Jewish.

People were murdered in Poway, California and Jersey City and brutally beaten on the streets of Brooklyn simply because they were Jewish.

Synagogues were burned in Sacramento and Duluth and Austin and vandalized in literally hundreds of other places, including North London and Leeds, simply because Jews worship there.

Cemeteries across the world -- Manchester, England, Philadelphia, Grand Rapids, St. Louis among many others -- have been desecrated simply because Jews rest there.

Tooth Fairy my ass. Justifying that kind of thing -- or hissing like a gas chamber -- as "mocking" is nothing short of perverse. Unfortunately, warped thinking like yours has become all too popular in these neo-nationalistic times, which is why you'll never see a synagogue again in the world that doesn't have an armed guard in front during services. Churches don't need them. Shuls do.

Mick Davies
98 Posted 07/04/2023 at 02:21:15
Mike @ 97, you've just concurred with my view: people are being murdered in the name of religion - well why have a religion then? It's nothing but a means of control, and the sooner people realise that, then the sooner we unite instead of being unnaturally divided. And you live in a country where schoolchildren are massacred on a daily basis, because the Christian religion made it possible when the constitution was written, that centuries later, loonies could go into Walmart and by a device to wipe out dozens of innocent lives.

Also, you obviously only read what you want to, as my first line was "I disagree with the reference to gas chambers". We have a different belief on Merseyside, where extreme right wing views are not tolerated, so before you condemn (wrongly) posts like mine, take a look at your own country, where "Making America Great" means more extreme anti-semitic and racist activities.

Mike Gaynes
99 Posted 07/04/2023 at 03:17:44
Wow, Mick, you "disagree" with the reference to gas chambers? Can't tell you how that warms my heart. What a noble sentiment.

I sure as hell don't need YOU to tell me about religious intolerance or the utter despicability of US MAGAs and their bigotry. I know a great deal more about the subject from very personal experience than you ever will from reading about it.

However, it's a simple fact that the Christian religion had nothing to do with the Second Amendment (gun rights) in particular or the US Constitution in general. Neither of the foundational documents of the United States, namely the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, ever mention God, let alone Jesus. And the greatest writers among our founders, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, were vehemently hostile to organized religion. The fact that the Second Amendment has been perverted to abet mass murder has nothing to do with Jesus. Or King David or Buddha or the Prophet Muhammad, for that matter.

(And to complete your education for the evening, you should know that Jews are both a religion and a race. We have unique, identifiable genetic markers.)

You're welcome to your opinion of religion, and I partly share it, but the fact is that our species has been devoted to religious ritual since we first evolved a couple million years ago, and billions of people today build their lives around their faiths -- I'm married to a deeply devout Buddhist -- so the idea that it's ever going to simply disappear from humanity is otherworldly.

I stand by my opinion of your views. Blaming the existence of religion for the existence of religious persecution, and excusing blatant religious bigotry on that basis, is perverse.

Mick Davies
100 Posted 07/04/2023 at 03:26:36
We are both Evertonians, but the difference between us is, I have the ability of free thought, whereas you are ruled by a 2,000 year old fairy story, with no evidence of any truth. I have said nothing to condone the holocaust, so don't twist words, and when you've had relatives who fought the Nazi's in Europe and North Africa, then you can preach about history.
Kieran Kinsella
101 Posted 07/04/2023 at 04:34:36

Mike is not a Christian so he doesn’t follow a 2,000 year old “fairy tale.” But I do and am not sure what you mean about it having “no truth.” Are you one of these numptys who thinks Jesus didn’t exist despite Jewish and Roman sources? That apart I have relatives who fought in Europe, North Africa and indeed Asia so yeah I know about history. I also know that people kill people not religions. The communists have no religion yet Stalin killed 20 million. Check out the situation in Godless North Korea and tell me folks there a better off? People are the problem be they gun manufacturers, Nazis, religious zealots, atheist zealots or any other kind of extremist psychos perverting one ideal or belief to justify evil. The other nuance you miss is that Judaism isn’t just a religion. Jews are a race. There were lots of non religious Jews gassed in concentration camps based on their race rather than their religion. Did you family members who fought the war not pass on that little nugget of information to you? Learn your history sunny Jim.

Mick Davies
102 Posted 07/04/2023 at 04:56:30
Kieran, do not insult me with that bollocks: Judasim is a part of Christianity, and you call ME a numpty? Where is the proof? Or did you just get told about all these religions ALL being the right ones? Why you mention Stalin I don't know, but you know nothing about history - Stalin was a Nationalist psychopath, and the Soviet Union had no communist credentials, as the workers were the oppressed, and 29% of North Koreans practice religion.

As for the Jewish 'religion' they are NOT a race, just as the Irish are not a race, just because a society is insular and there's only a small gene pool, does not make these people a race. Those non-practising Jews were identified by their names, just as I can identify your name as of Irish descent, so there you go Sunny Jim

Danny O’Neill
103 Posted 07/04/2023 at 06:02:28
Well, this one picked up and got emotive.

I'm Catholic and have witnessed enough religious induced conflicts first hand to last me a life time.

It's not the religion or faith that is the problem. Each to their own beliefs and faith. It's those alleged leaders in positions of power who use it to stoke the fire.

Everton is a religion that I and we all follow. I am a proud of my city of Liverpool roots.

Should I lodge a complaint at the ignorant Tottenham supporters who called me a Scouse barsteward, claimed that they pay my benefits and told me to sign on?

Offended? Not at those pathetic stereotypical chants from people who I probably earn more money than and who have never been to Speke or understand the innovation of our city. Ignorance or banter? Probably a bit of both.

I can live with it. I'm thick skinned enough and can always challenge perceptions, often leaving people with little to say in response.

Let's get into match day mode and focus on our Everton. That's what we do best. Leave other supporters to spend half of their time and ticket money watching and goading us. We will get behind the team as we always do.

Steve Brown
104 Posted 07/04/2023 at 06:10:47
Danny O, funny that the Germans call us “Island monkeys”! I haven’t heard that before me before.

The Spanish used to call us “pirates” who can from the “perfidious albion.”

Guess we have upset a few countries over the last few centuries.

As for the term “yid”, it is for the people it is aimed at that to decide whether it is offensive or not. If Jewish people find it offensive, it should stop being used - even if Jewish people choose to use it themselves in jest occasionally.

Alan J Thompson
105 Posted 07/04/2023 at 06:31:26
Mike(99); And what are your views on the treatment of Palestinians?
Steve Brown
106 Posted 07/04/2023 at 07:14:03
Mick, I thought that Jewish people are a race - they are semites. As are the Palestinians if I am not wrong?

Someone correct me if this is not accurate, as I am not 100% sure on it.

Danny O’Neill
107 Posted 07/04/2023 at 07:54:25
Yes Steve, the German phrase is "Inselaffen". It existed way before Brexit. Decades before actually. Just like we call them Krauts (cabbages).

To my knowledge, the term Yid comes from reference to the language historically spoken by the European Jewish population. Yiddish. I don't find it offensive. It's a reference to European Jewish history and culture. Although not particularly relevant to all of the contemporary Tottenham fan base, it is part of their North London history if you look into it.

A bit like our north Liverpool dockland and Irish immigrant heritage. But gone are the days when we were all Catholics of Irish descent living in or around L4.

Are we going to offended by being called a Brit, a Mick, a Jock or a Taff?

Whilst there is no room for discrimination and there are red lines that shouldn't be stepped over, we do seem to be becoming a very outraged society.

Geoff Trenner
108 Posted 07/04/2023 at 07:57:55
Steve @ 106. Arabs are a part of the Semitic people group. However, anti-Semitic is defined in the dictionary as hatred towards Jews. Not because Jews are the only Semites, but because the word originated in Germany in the late 1800s in order to give Jew-hating a more scientific name.
Steve Brown
109 Posted 07/04/2023 at 09:03:15
Thanks Geoff and Danny.
Steve Brown
110 Posted 07/04/2023 at 09:06:58
Funny, when I lived in Indonesia people used to shout “bulay” at me. It means albino in Bahasa. Made me laugh.

To be fair, I have always been a bit pale due to the Celtic genes!

Tony Abrahams
111 Posted 07/04/2023 at 09:52:36
Very outraged or are we just stripping away character from nearly every part of life, Danny?

The Harry Kane situation the other night was the perfect example of how a major part of the human race has just become so sickeningly cynical and snide, imo.

Chants about Munich & Hillsborough are sickening and should definitely be stamped out, but football is not doing itself any favours imo, by coming down hard on a lot of songs, that “I believe” is just banter.

Not everyone will see it like this of course, which means the only questions left to ask, is where is all this outrage at being offended by everything going to take us, and where is it going to end?

Dermot O'Brien
112 Posted 07/04/2023 at 10:03:19
It's nice to be reminded now and again that there's gobshites in every fanbase, even ours.
Danny O’Neill
113 Posted 07/04/2023 at 10:10:20
Agree Tony,

The Munich runway chants of the past were awful. I've visited the memorial in Munich with my wife and son. Very humbling and moving.

I noticed there was outrage at the Chelsea supporters in their chanting at the cousins last weekend.

Everything seems to get related to Hillsborough whereas those chants are more linked to Heysels and were around before the tragic events of 1989.

Airbrushing and changing history. Denying their past. Always outraged, never embarrassed.

As Rob H often says, I'd rather have our history than live with theirs.

Tony Abrahams
114 Posted 07/04/2023 at 10:36:01
I never took much notice Danny, and just assumed the Chelsea fans were singing about Hillsborough. The Everton flag I think I first witnessed in Nuremberg said it best, with regards Liverpudlians. If Don Corleone, owned the politicians, then it’s definitely the fan base across the park, that have got the sycophantic media in their pockets!
Alan McGuffog
115 Posted 07/04/2023 at 11:52:07
I always believed that everyone from the Indian sub continent going west were Caucasians. So I'm the same race as a bloke from Sri Lanka or Iran. I'm good with that.
Mick Davies
116 Posted 07/04/2023 at 14:05:28
I agree with Danny - my religion is Everton FC
Danny O’Neill
117 Posted 07/04/2023 at 15:08:21
Tony, you open up a new debate.

I may be childish or paranoid, so I'd like like other people's views.

I was born in the city of Liverpool. I'm proud of my city. I'm an Evertonian.

But call me a Liverpudlian and I take offence. Just no. It makes me feel unclean.

I never, ever call myself a Liverpudlian. Is it just me? Do I have a problem?

Bill Gall
118 Posted 07/04/2023 at 15:20:04
I think most of the chants seem to be more on disasters and race, and not actually on religion, witch is different.

My own experience with Everton and religion came about with me being Church of England I married a Catholic girl. First the Nuns asked me unsuccessfully to change my religion, then they sent for the big guns the Priest. He came to the house and said, I here you don't want to change my son, my answer, no sir I am remaining an Evertonian, his answer with a laugh was, so am I, have been for years, and much to my wife's dismay all we talked about was Everton.

That was I believe 1962 still an Evertonian.

As far as fighting over religion goes I remember at the end of a movie called Kingdom of Heaven, that said King Richard the Lion-heart after 3 yrs fighting the Muslims left Jerusalem, 2,000 yrs later they are still fighting over it.

Mick Davies
119 Posted 07/04/2023 at 15:27:29
Excellent Bill
Danny O’Neill
120 Posted 07/04/2023 at 15:34:18
Bill, different times, but my mother, a Protestant was told in no uncertain terms after a visit by the Priest from St Chrisopher's, in Speke, where I was christened that she had to (yes had to) have her children christened Catholic.

Also, she wanted me registered as Danny, the name I go by and always have. But it had to be Daniel for the record. I hate Daniel, it always makes me feel like I'm in trouble.

On the chants, I just don't like the way anything shouted at them has now been twisted into a Hillsborough thing.

Especially from us. We stood by them and have stood by them more than any other club over that.

They should speak to my middle brother who annually puts up a "Remember the 39" post on his social media. And those Juventus supporters who turned their back on the gesture from the Kop.

The chats I hear are not Hillsborough related. Don't let them win the emotional blackmail game because the nasty fans shout at them.

We know the chant. Every single one of them.

John McFarlane Snr
121 Posted 07/04/2023 at 15:46:23
Hi Danny [117] like yourself, I too I was born in Liverpool [Mill Road hospital Everton] on 15/07/1938, a stones-throw from the family home at 75 Everton Road. I have never taken kindly to the description of 'Liverpudlian', mainly from people we've met on holiday. Needless to say I made it quite plain that I viewed it as an insult.

I'm sure that you and I are not alone in our displeasure, and I think that the saying of, ''Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me'' is due for updating.

Danny O’Neill
122 Posted 07/04/2023 at 15:55:49
Thank you John Senior.

Sefton General on Smithdown Road is where I entered the world, which I now believe to be to site of an Asda?

My youngest brother was born in Mill Road, even though the family home was in Speke.

We are Everontonians. I cannot go by the tag that associates me with the unholy.

Tony Abrahams
123 Posted 07/04/2023 at 16:01:10
I’ve just saw your post Danny, and like John Mc, I was born in Everton. I wish that this was on my birth certificate, BORN IN EVERTON💙
Bill Gall
124 Posted 07/04/2023 at 16:06:48
Yes Danny different times, I do not know if it has changed but when I was married, I married in a Catholic Church, St Swithins in Croxteth, as according to my wife she had to be married before an alter to be considered married, but the truth was you were only legally married when you went around and signed the legal marriage papers.

My children were brought up Catholic, and on a Sunday I used to run a football team and my daughter yrs old used to come with me. After the game we used to go to Jacobs club and when my daughter asked were we are going I used to joke and say were going to Church. I guess 1 Sunday my Wife asked her if she wants to go to Church with her and her answer was no I want to go to dads Church.

I had numerous conversations with the Nuns and Priest over religion but they were never forceful, always respectful maybe they thought it was a better tact for change.

David Bromwell
125 Posted 07/04/2023 at 16:30:12
Just a thought, I know why fans have to be segregated but for me one of the joys of going to a match in the past was standing next to the opposition supporters. I always found that they would give you an honest assessment of their team and it was good to hear what they thought about Everton.

The best or worst example of enforced segregation can be seen during Derby matches when my relatives, friends or neighbours team and their supporters are treated to a barrage of abuse. Much better in my opinion to take away much of the anxiety and tension that surrounds these games as this simply winds up the players and over the years has possibly contributed to our dismal record.

Kieran Kinsella
126 Posted 07/04/2023 at 16:30:16

You accused Mike Gaynes of following a 2,000 fairytale. Mike is Jewish he is not a Christian. Judaism pre-dates Christianity and since Jewish people largely didn't believe in Jesus then while Christianity has roots in Judaism, Judaism is distinct from Christianity.

I mentioned Stalin as you said we would be free of conflict without it and Stalin was an atheist as was Hitler as was Mao Tse Tung as is Kim Jung Il. Point being people are psychos as I said and you can't blame it on their religion or irreligion.

Lastly as to "fairytale." what precisely do you mean by that? That Jesus didn't exist? Well Roman and Jewish sources show he did. Moreover, plenty of people were documented as being killed for following him. If you're suggesting he wasn't the Son of God or rose again? I can't prove he did or he didn't. It's a matter of belief.

John Keating
127 Posted 07/04/2023 at 16:31:14
It would be nice to have Everton on the birth certificate
I travel the world with my job and anyone who doesn’t recognise my accent and asks where I’m from I automatically say Everton
Never had a problem
John McFarlane Snr
128 Posted 07/04/2023 at 16:31:34
Hi Tony [123] Fortunately for me my birth certificate reads,

[Name and Surname], John McFarlane
[Sex], Boy
[Date of Birth] Fifteenth July 1938.
[Registration District], Liverpool North.
[Sub- District] Everton.

I have always said that it wouldn't be bother me if I snuffed it at Goodison Park, but now I want to hang on for the Bramley Moore Stadium.

John Cook
129 Posted 07/04/2023 at 17:13:21
Hi John,

Like you I have Everton on my birth certificate.,Like they say Evertonians are born.,I too hoping to be at Bramley Moore,top of my ever diminishing bucket list

All the very best, respect.

John Keating
130 Posted 07/04/2023 at 17:13:30
Strange my registration district is also Liverpool North but the sub district is Netherfield!
Strange as I was born in Upper Beau Street next to the Friary church and school.
Bill Gall
131 Posted 07/04/2023 at 17:18:20
Hi John Snr

Just found my Birth Certificate.
( Sex, Boy )
( Date of Birth ) 6th October 1940.
( Registration District ) Liverpool North.
( Sub District ) Fazakerly.

I am not sure if this just signifies, where you were actually born or just the district you lived in for the registration. I know my brother was born at home in 1946 in Norris Green but not sure what is on his certificate.

Mike Gaynes
132 Posted 07/04/2023 at 17:20:58
Kieran #126, thanks for your comprehensive beatdown of Mick's malarkey. I couldn't have said it better. Unfortunately, a guy who believes "'Judasim' is a part of Christianity" isn't likely to respond to either scientific fact or common sense.

Steve #106, my understanding is that the term Semites relates less to defined ethnic origin, which is imprecise, and more to people who speak Semitic languages, including Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic. The term "anti-Semitic", however, applies specifically to the Jews.

Danny O, "yid" is considered derogatory, if quite quaint due to age. It was directed at Yiddish-speaking immigrants in both Europe and the US a century ago. (Yiddish isn't a derivative of Hebrew, but rather an old form of High German.) Somebody using it these days is most likely to generate a chuckle.

Alan #105, like the vast majority of American Jews, I consider the treatment of the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs by the current Israeli government to be both disgraceful and morally corrosive to our identity as Jews and our historic commitment to peace and justice. I believe it damages Israel in much the same way that apartheid morally damaged South Africa.

Danny O’Neill
133 Posted 07/04/2023 at 17:43:49
Yes Mike, a central European language that is Germanic. I don't understand it, but being a relatively decent German speaker, I can pick out words and when I see written text can make sense of it.

I still don't see Yid as derogatory. Maybe that's me.

Being called a Liverpudlian is more offensive.

Martin Mason
134 Posted 07/04/2023 at 18:03:50
Mike, it's easy to criticise the actions of the Israelis from an armchair in the USA?
David Currie
135 Posted 07/04/2023 at 18:07:58
John Mc Snr 121,
I wish I had been born on Everton Rd, I was born on Manchester Rd ??
Dale Self
136 Posted 07/04/2023 at 18:12:15
I don’t think it matters if you are not offended by some subgroup’s externally used slang name. It only. matters if THEY are offended. Is that in question or are we trying ‘grey area’ that too?
Dale Self
137 Posted 07/04/2023 at 18:21:40
And Marty baby, Bebe is making that easy from any and all geographic coordinates.
Robert Tressell
138 Posted 07/04/2023 at 18:23:54
Martin, where else would Mike be critical of the Israeli government from? He lives in America.

Do you tend to travel closer to your objects of criticism? Or do you do that from home also?

Bill Gall
139 Posted 07/04/2023 at 18:53:49
John #130

Funny thing about that is my Wife lived in the 4 Squares, Queen Anne Place, and went to the Friary, her birth certificate registration is Born North Liverpool and her Sub Division is Everton.

Bill Gall
140 Posted 07/04/2023 at 19:12:00
My only experience of German language was for 4 yrs we received lessons to speak German for about 1hr a day. I got reasonable understanding it in classroom speech, but in 1956 I went on a tour with a boys club and when there, I suppose it may have been the dialect, I could not understand a word they said.
It could have been different as after the war my Dad who was an engineer was asked to stop in Germany, but thankfully my Mother put her foot down with a firm hand refused to go.
Kieran Kinsella
141 Posted 07/04/2023 at 19:18:49

Martin seems to have little trouble criticizing people from all over the globe on ToffeeWeb from the comfort of his armchair in Lancashire.

Kieran Kinsella
142 Posted 07/04/2023 at 19:24:49

I disagree on your sensibilities. You said 'Brit' is like 'Taff' but 'Taff' is derived from the English misinterpretation of the Welsh 'Dafydd' and popularized by the English song Taffy was a Welshman which was about a stereotype of Welsh people as ignorant thieves.

In contrast, 'Brit' is simply short for 'British' – although it is somewhat offensive as it brackets us English with Taffys. (Just joking)

Deborah Maria
143 Posted 07/04/2023 at 19:56:29
If there is a god or Jesus or whatever you might call your god, he is either an impotent god or he doesn’t care.
John McFarlane Snr
144 Posted 07/04/2023 at 20:21:43
Hi John [130] & [Bill 131, & 139]

I think it depends where your birth details are registered, I was registered in Brougham Terrace, West Derby Road.

Hi David [135],

Where is Manchester Road? I can only recall Manchester Street, which runs along the side of the Mersey Tunnel. My memory is not functioning as well as it used to, but I believe Everton and Liverpool players were regular visitors to the Royal Tiger, which was on Manchester Street. Someone will put me right if I'm mistaken.

Danny O’Neill
145 Posted 07/04/2023 at 20:23:55
As we were on the subject of Birth Certificates, I blew the cobwebs off mine.

Registration District just reads Liverpool.

Sub District is Sefton Park.

Kieran, I know. It's like the stereotyping of Scousers, which I prefer to be called. Don't call me.a Liverpudlian. Never.

I have many friends through the military from Wales. One spells his name as Taph rather than Taff. Pronounced the same. I never asked him why and still haven't;

I was based near Haverfordwest for 4 years, although 2 or those were spent in Afghanistan, but south west Wales was my home base.

I have a strong connection with Pemrokeshire. A beautiful part of these islands. Once you get there. Drive to the end of the M4 and keep going until you hit the sea is how I used to describe it!

I guess my point is how easily people are offended and twist arugments. And I by no means aim to dismiss abuse. Let's just have a bit of perspective.

Otherwise, it's okay to call me a Scouse bastard and assume I'm on the dole, sponging off benefits. A correctional converstation I have on countless occasions on the train to Lime Street.

Mick Davies
146 Posted 07/04/2023 at 20:43:03
Mike, your knowledge of religious history is far superior to my 'malarkey' but the reason for that is I'm too intelligent to be interested in fables and so-called 'chosen people' or master races.

What happened 2,000 years ago when humanity was in its infancy should have no relevance on the 21st century, it's just that people like yourself don't have the capacity to leave that all behind, and embrace others as equals.

The only credit I will give is your condemnation of Israel's genocidal policies in Palestine, where an average of 25 or 30 a month are slain by soldiers and settlers, and the indigenous people are herded into ghettos, while ethnic cleansing and land grab are ignored by the world.

Martin Mason, on the other hand, would obviously rant on for hours about similar behaviour by Nazi Germany – double standards.

Tony Abrahams
147 Posted 07/04/2023 at 20:48:26
I thought what Mike wrote all the way from America was a very good description and I'm glad he expressed it, Martin, because I wasn't aware that most American Jews had those feelings.

Anyone who is intrigued by this part of the world should watch the Netflix programme Fauda and might even come to the same conclusion with regards to what Martin has just said. The Israelis, do seem to be under constant threat, although it might also be argued that the Jews are the real perpetrators. Can it be any other way when they are surrounded by such hatred?

Danny O’Neill
148 Posted 07/04/2023 at 21:10:24
I was in Warsaw only 3 weeks ago.

I visited the Jewish Memorial Museum and various sights around what was the Ghetto that the Nazis created before their deportation plan was implemented.

Very eye-opening. Very humbling. Sobering. Of the estimated 6 million murdered, 3 million of them were Polish Jews. That constituted 90% of the Polish jewish community at the time.

Modern Israel lives under a siege mentality.

Deep for Good Friday.

Andy Crooks
149 Posted 07/04/2023 at 21:12:50
Honestly, Mick, never say "I"m too intelligent..", it really deflects from your argument, actually in a Trump like way.
Mick Davies
150 Posted 07/04/2023 at 21:28:58
Andy, sorry if it comes across that way, but I meant, too intelligent to believe in unverified fables. I live in the 21st century, where the effect of thousands of years of organised religion is still causing massive problems in the world
Alan McGuffog
151 Posted 07/04/2023 at 21:36:11
John 144...If my memory serves me, there was also a Wine Lodge and a small church / Chapel on Manchester Street. Funny little street really.
Mike Gaynes
152 Posted 07/04/2023 at 23:12:48
Danny #133, you understand more Yiddish than you know. For instance, if I were to describe a poster here as a "schmuck", you'd know exactly what I meant!

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