The WWII sidetrack thread

Mike

What's that saying about if a thread goes on so long someone mentions the war? I guess it falls to me.

If Truman and Churchill could stomach an alliance of convenience with Stalin, surely Dyche can handle playing along with Gray for 8 months in the basis that he might score the odd goal?

Kieran,

It was Roosevelt and Churchill; Truman came in after FDR's death as the war was almost over and it was Roosevelt who wanted Stalin's help in defeating the Japanese after VE day. If anything, it was the other two who had to stomach the Imperialist, Machiavellian Tory, who riled both with his obsession with keeping the colonies, and his antagonistic behaviour with Poland and Greece.

On a minor scale, all Dyche has to do is put Gray in the squad, and leave it up to him, if he doesn't react with positive displays when picked to play, everyone will say he's the problem, whereas, if he performs to a high standard that we know he's capable of, then Dyche will get the plaudits – simple

Kieran, I knew you were in trouble when you brought up WWII with all the historians here! (Mick, top corner finish on your reply.)

But hey, if Patton could apologize to Ike, then Gray can apologize to Dyche. (See what I did there?) And Patton was a much better finisher than Demarai.

So FDR and "genial" Joe Stalin had to stomach Churchill's antagonism towards Poland?

My late father-in-law would be intrigued by that assertion. He spent 2 years incarcerated by Stalin in Siberia after said tyrant joined Adolf in partitioning the country. Still he was lucky... had he been an army officer his remains would have been found at Katyn.

Machiavellian? What about managing to have the Nazis take the blame for decades? The PR outfit at Anfield couldn't have done better.

Antagonistic? Wanting to supply the Poles at Warsaw but being denied airspace by Joe whilst his former mate Adolf bombed the fuck out the place.

I'm no Tory and Churchill's faults were legion, I agree he was an imperialist, but ffs he was one of the few establishment figures in the 1930s to warn against the rise of Nazism.

Mick (137). The Imperialist, Machiavellian tory was proven right though about Stalin's post war aims and Poland and many other countires paid the price for Roosevelt not listening. We, are still seeing the legacy of that in the Ukraine, today.

Oh and what Basil Fawlty said.

To those quoting personal stories; look at the bigger picture - Stalin wanted an alliance with Britain to counter German and Italian fascism, but Churchill and his cohorts admired Hitler and Mussolini. When the Spanish Civil War broke out, the Western powers refused to aid a democratically elected govt and helped fascism to triumph in Spain. Only Mexico and the USSR sent aid, while Britain and France stopped any volunteers and aid getting there to help the govt.
Then, during the Munich crisis, Poland denied Russia access to attack Germany with the West to help the Czechs. After this, they realised that Churchill/Chamberlain etc expected a war between the commies and Nazi's and also, Poland took a slice of Czechoslovakia from Hitler, so much for the military govt in Warsaw - they were architects of their own demise.
Sorry for the lecture but ignorance of the past just causes repetition

Mike, I believe Patton went around slapping soldiers — I wonder if Dyche is like that with his players?

Well I mostly come on here to discuss Everton and football, but as we've moved onto World War Two, I thought I'd chip in as I watch a lot and read a lot about history.

Having lived in Germany as a child and served there in the Army, I'm pretty clued up on their history.

Churchill stood firm when Europe had collapsed. After Chamberlain tried to do a deal with the devil, a member of our Royal Family visited the German Kopite at his Berghoff residence.

Churchill was trying to be coaxed into doing a peace deal by the UK Parliament with the most evil regime in modern times that eventually slaughtered millions. Shooting civilians into their open graves and gassing people before burning their bodies. He saw through it when others were weak and turning a blind eye.

You stand up to bullies in simple speak.

On our own as Europe collapsed, until the US cousins came in, he refused those who suggested we should do a deal. Watch the Darkest Hour film.

World War One, but I have often visited Iper (proper Dutch spelling for Ypres). I often walk around the battlefields and the cemeteries and always find something new. Very sad but very poignant.

I once stumbled across a memorial to the Liverpool Scottish, originally part of the Kings.

And the German Langemark cemetery is very humbling. Buried with black head stones as they were the defeated. Over 40,000 buried there. The Armies of the British Empire got white headstones as the victors.

The ritual that is carried out at the Menin Gate every day of the year in Iper by the locals is very moving. The British Army takes their recruits there during basic training.

I don't think I'll ever get back to Helmand, I wouldn't ever want to. What I witnessed in Bosnia upset me in hindsight, but I was young enough at the time to cope. And nearly being blown up in Northern Ireland didn't bother me as a youngster. We all went out and took photos near the crater from the mortar.

I could talk about this stuff all day.

Let's get back to Everton.

I'm very ignorant and uneducated about certain things that really interest me, Danny, so I often ask what might be construed as very ignorant questions, to provoke more insight from people with a lot more knowledgeable than myself.

Is it in any way possible that Margaret Thatcher put a load of money into a Swiss bank account for Galtieri to send his troops to the Falkland Islands, and help her get back onside at home?

Tony,

If she had thought of it, she would have done, so maybe that's what happened.

I wouldn't put nothing past that evil witch, I bet Kenwright is related to her!

Dave and Tony,

I understand it was more cock-up than conspiracy. They all thought Argentina wouldn't be daft enough to do anything, never mind invade. So when they did, they took full advantage.

I am late to the Roosevelt - Churchill - Stalin discussion.

f anyone wants to know the WW2 story from the Polish perspective then "A Question of Honor" by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud is a great read.

Paul, was the sinking of the General Belgrano ship a cock up or a deliberate attack on a ship outside the zone Britain had marked?

Over 900 lives lost in a couple of weeks to win a General Election. No tears shed by Thatchter over any of them but plenty shed when her son Mark was lost in a race in the desert. I believe she was an evil witch of a woman.

When you look at it over the years, it makes interesting reading.

I believe Thatcher was linked to the harsh Chilean Military Dictator. Obviously Argentina's neighbour.

America pleaded with her not to retake the Falklands. She sent a Task Force that was outnumbered 3 - 1 and because of the loss of helicopters due to ships carrying them being sunk, the troops had to march 50 miles on foot to then fight as well as fight additional battles that occurred on the way.

Don't fight, gamble or drink with the British as the Americans officially used to get advised when serving in Germany!!

We supported Iran then switched to Iraq before going to war with the latter and now support Saudi in their proxy war with Iran and side with the US. Obviously due to the lucrative defence contract with have with Saudi.

We backed what eventually became the Taliban against the Soviet Union, arming them with anti-aircraft missiles that they eventually used to try to shoot our helicopters down. I had a close call there too, but have a picture of me smiling as I just thought it was a hard landing. That was a summer when I think we experienced the heaviest fighting the British Army had experienced since Korea. Bayonets fixed. That's when it's getting close and personal.

I lost a close friend. Shoulder blown off and he bled out. They didn't risk the helicopter as he was gone. The young lad sat in the vehicle had the door open so got blown out and got away with cuts and bruises. He'd have been mince had that door been closed.

I'd been there previously, but during my first full tour of Afghanistan, we had just over 5,000 covering somewhere bigger than Wales. I went a few times in between, but the second tour, although we had 10,000 by then, the Americans came in to help and thought we were crazy. They more than doubled our numbers.

I told you I could talk all day about this. Sorry if I sound morbid. I don't mean to.

One for the Harlech. The day after my birthday now as they've changed the date, which meant a change of train ticket. Thank you Premier League. Everton Birthday present.

Wherever I've been, they've always been there with me. The lads used to send me the results over the radio.

Like my second cousin removed Ben Novak, who was killed in Iraq. Very connected with Everton. Poor lad grew up in a family of Kopites.

Enough of my ramblings. We've got to get this annoying international break out of the way and get to Arsenal. See you there.

Don't fight, gamble or drink with the British, Danny?

I remember reading a chapter in a book written by a Stoke City hooligan and in the story he talked about how the British army went berserk and battered a load of American sailors in Gibraltar. This was started because of a throwaway remark by one cocky American over the sinking of a British ship during the Falklands conflict.

I've searched the internet for stories about this but never been able to find anything, although this fella did have a front page headline from a national newspaper to back his story up.

Not to get involved but a note on Pinochet and Thatcher. The pension reform in Chile was the pinnacle of the Friedman economic model in practice. All right-leaning Rand-worshipping heads of state gave lip service and more to that cause.

Mick. Stalin's vicious and cynical attacks on POUM are some of the most disgraceful acts of the Spanish Civil War, when a proper united front might have had some real success in the fight against Fascism. The Communist Party was in effect, a Fifth Column.

My grandad built aircraft for the RFC during WWI, in Woolton I think it was. Me dad fought in North Africa and Italy in WWII. So my family beat the Germans twice, so there!

On the Churchill debate, Winnie admired Mussolini but detested Hitler and the Nazis.

And here's me thinking that "WW11" was some sort of new-fangled weird team formation!

The British army is waiting out there
And it weighs fifteen hundred tons.

White man in Hammersmith Palais.

"If Adolf Hitler flew in today they'd send a limousine anyway."

The Clash.

University Challenge is crap these days. Bring back that insufferable snob, Paxman.

I'm kinda proud to have two war heroes in my family -- for saving lives, not taking them. Both were doctors.

My grandfather Leonard was Chief Medical Officer aboard the first army hospital ship ever converted, USAHS Marigold. A few months in the Med, then to the Pacific. They were present at the Japanese surrender, then my grandfather ordered the Marigold into Tokyo harbor and docked. He and his team unloaded two Jeeps, filled them with medical supplies and headed for the POW camps around Tokyo at a time when the Japanese population didn't know yet about the surrender. They provided the first medical treatment for US, British, Aussie, Canadian Dutch, Greek and Chinese prisoners, then they stayed on for two more months to serve as the only available hospital for wounded, starving Japanese civilians, mostly elderly and children. Major Gaynes MD got a Bronze Star, I believe the only noncombat one the Army awarded. I never met him, unfortunately.

My grandfather's little brother Harvey commanded the 79th Field Hospital in 1945 in Europe, where as Lt Colonel Gaynes he outranked his big brother (which he enjoyed immensely). He made the 79th the first "mobile" medical unit, a model that later became the famous M*A*S*Hs and saved thousands of lives in Korea. Somebody wrote a book about him. Harvey married the widow of a Marine pilot and became the funniest allergist in Los Angeles. I still remember my parents' laughter when we visited them. Sadly he too died quite young.

Haha sorry Michael

They were all heroes, Mike, whatever their roles were.

Colin @ 24; Paxman? Nowt but a pale imitation - Bamber, now he was a quizmaster.

(Paul & Bamber; funny how one 'family' can have such a wide range of members.)

The Medics are unsung heroes. In Afghanistan, they were in the mix and first on the scene, saving lives in the critical moment to get people back to the main hospital at Camp Bastion. Life-changing injuries, but they kept them alive.

Right in the firing line, but with one aim in mind. To save life. And not just of our own. We often took the other side back too to get them fixed.

The military is a machine, not just about the infantry, and the Medics are a vital cog in that. It's similar to football in a way. You need a bit of everything.

I reflect a lot on my service. My Grandfather fought in what was then Burma before returning to Speke and then eventually living out his days on Arkles Lane. Both of my brothers served.

It's interesting, all the time I was away, I never gave it a second thought. I missed 18 months of the first two years of my son's life. When I got home, he was talking. His reaction broke my heart the night before I went to Afghanistan the second time.

I used to be away for 6 months at a time, always mindful I might not come home. I didn't think about it. It was a job.

My son is now serving and was deployed last year. I'll admit, despite what I've just said, I was worried sick every single day and night until he got home safe.

On a lighter note, we're having healthy debate about Everton at the moment. He's 28 and a realist. I'm about to turn 52 and waiting for Kevin Sheedy to get fit.

My 34-year-old youngest brother just shakes his head at me.

What does a realist do when he's having a conversation about Everton with you Danny? Shake his head and smile!!

Tony and Dave @ 10 & 11, I have no wish to get into a discussion about Lady Thatcher on ToffeeWeb. I know that my views on her aren't shared by many on here and, once bitten, twice shy!
However, what is the point of making totally unsubstantiated slurs about her? As far as I am aware, no serious commentator has ever suggested that she bribed Galtieri to invade The Falklands.
Dave @ 14. The sinking of the Belgrano was, in my view, absolutely the right thing to do.

Mick. Churchill was many things. An undoubted white supremacist. His attitude towards the famine in India in the 1940s was disgusting.
However he was never an admirer of Hitler, ever. Unlike many of his contemporaries in the Establishment.
Lord Halifax, Rothermere ( Daily Mail ) and, ffs, Edward VIII who was happy to turn a blind eye whilst von Ribbentrop got down and dirty with his missus.

Geoff, Hmm.. trying to stick to the football is commendable, but on Margaret Thatcher, (no lady in my eyes) there is a valid reason a significant part of Liverpool partied on her demise. Not just the managed decline bit either.. I think also the British army did its job brilliantly in the Falklands despite the obvious political exploitation by the PM. BTW you're right, there is no need to make unsubstantiated slurs about her, the substantiated ones are sufficient.

Geoff (31), Fair enough mate you have your views and I have mine we'll leave it at that except to say you are not alone in your views and I have no doubt if Thatcher came back today and entered politics again she would be a good bet to be elected and amazingly, to me, so would Johnson and possibly Trump.

We are a funny mixed up crowd of people aren't we!

Colin #20, the American planes were put together on the old Dunlop site in Speke. They were delivered into Garston docks and assembled in Speke. My Grandfather worked there as well. He was also in the Home Guard based at Woolton Golf Club.

To think that there were 14,000 people employed on that site up until the late 70's.

Geoff @ 31; during the dying embers of Jim-crisis, what crisis-Callghan's Government, there were moves afoot to cut costs and let Argentina 'administer' The Falklands and even after the Tories got in I got the impression that, if they had asked nicely, 'we' probably would've paid them to take the job on.

For their own internal reasons, they took the macho route, little suspecting that Maggie – probably also for her own internal reasons – decided to out-macho them.

Chile were not on the best of terms with Argentina and there was I'm sure a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' and while technically neutral were happy to give us supply and landing rights at Punta Arenas on the Atlantic side of Patagonia.

But as the as the oft maligned Churchill said "Jaw-jaw is always better than war-war"...and me and Edwin Starr are in full agreement with this.

Stephen @ 35; my 14-year-old mum had her first job there working on those planes. I have a copy of a picture of a convoy of Mustangs – minus wings – going down Allerton Road, no doubt on route to Dunlop's or Speke Airport.

Having visited the Falklands earlier this year for the first time, I think we need to remind ourselves that, if we are ever to condone or allow the invasion of sovereign territory, namely our own, we are on thin ground indeed when we see aggression like Russia's invasion of Ukraine or even China's possible invasion of Taiwan.

There is at the heart of this the concept of self-determination in cases where they might be multiple historical claims and I can tell you that there is and never was any support among the residents of the Falklands to operate under Argentinian rule. The thankfully brief occupation did not change that. Given Argentina's sad economic collapse, that applies today, even more so.

It was a very big ask to expect a nation to militarily support a territory with a few thousand citizens very many thousands of miles away at a time when our own economic position was weakened, even more so for our military to conduct such a difficult operation which was much closer to defeat than some realise (that loss of helicopter cover). But had a Labour government not followed the same course, they would in my view have been making a very big mistake, both morally and practically.

Christine @ 33. It is undeniable that she was a Lady. Having met her many times at Conservative Party functions, I can assure you that she was also very much a lady.

I wouldn't go that far Geoff. I've seen the letters she wrote to Emlyn Hughes in the 70s, congratulating him after she'd just watched Match of the Day, and wishing Liverpool luck in various finals. I couldn't believe it, I always thought she was a blue. There's even a photo of her with Bob Paisley with some cup they won abroad. Clearly she'd been dragged up.

Margret Thatcher may have been given Lady as a title,
but she certainly was not a lady to many areas of the UK,
especially Northern England and Scotland.
She destroyed the industrial heartland of the UK, one reason the miners, the other reason, it was easier to make money in London through the banking and insurance industrial which backed the Tory Party.
Look at her legacy,
Gave away the watery industry (thats turned out well).
Deregulated the Bus Services (another fine mess).
Deregulated the Insurance & Banking services, so they could all sell the same, ie mortgages, insurance, pensions
etc. (again a mess, with more claims of mis selling).
Remember, tell Syd about buying gas shares.
A small carrot for the masses, while the elite made a fortune.
Similar to above with the building societies.
Sold off the Council House Stock with out replacing it, which was the start of the housing shortage.
When she finally left us, that lovely £4 million house in London, she lived in, brought no tax into the UK, as it was
owned by a company in the Channel Islands, set up by her family.
Today the Tories, would call it levelling up, but for who ?

I do find Thatcher bashing highly amusing, especially when it comes to mining. You do realise the economics behind all this?

The UK and all developed economies are service economies and have been moving that way over time. Coal mines had to close – now look at the awful Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) movement and renewables (which is costing a fortune and they're still mining this stuff). The only place it's not closing is China….and for a reason. The bigger tragedy was (and is) how the North Sea Oil revenues were wasted.

Anyway, the alternative to Thatcher was Neil Kinnock and even a half-baked socialist could see in hindsight that would never have worked. Socialism doesn't work, by the way, never has and never will. It's more like a cult (of Marx and Engels).

But it's a useful distraction to globalists that make people believe that there are two parties pulling in opposite directions that have your (the individual's) best interests at heart.

They don't and it's an illusion. And until you realise they are one of the same thing, you/we all remain trapped in the perpetual cycle of dissatisfaction.

Go and read Carroll Quigley – he had some interesting views on two-partyism. Alternatively 1984 - the socialists' handbook on the future of humanity. Happy reading!

I'm sorry, Nick, but 1984 can be used by any political philosophy that believes it should be totalitarian, it's not exclusive to socialists. The Labour Party and the Trade Unions were built due to the holders of wealth being unwilling to do anything but exploit the workers.

WWI and WWII helped to make people question what had been happening and most fair-minded people wanted to see a 'fairer' society, not necessarily equal but fairer.

Thatcher and Reagan threw that notion of a fairer society into the waste bin, and we now have what they wanted, a society with individuals fighting their own corner, and unconcerned about the impacts on the wider society.

I'd agree that the two-party system isn't an either or choice, but that's mainly because the vested interest groups, Banks, Media, Oil etc use their power to cry 'foul' if either party strays too far from what is best for those industries.

Whether Kinnock was a good or bad politician, it doesn't matter, the voter should only choose the party that is best able to deliver what they want, not vote as if it was a TV talent show, where the 'personality' becomes the leader of the country.

A century on, and society hasn't learned that personality politics is the danger, not the party that the personality belongs to.

Geoff (31) “I have no wish to get into an argument about Lady (?) Thatcher on ToffeeWeb" – yet here you are @ (38) assuring us that the bleedin' witch was very much a lady having met her at Conservative Party meetings! Any chance of telling us what your role was at these meetings or were you just an innocent bystander?

Facts Nick, Facts Dear Boy !!
I did not slate a party, I just gave you facts, which you have not disputed, because you know they are correct.
You prefer to slate another party by your right wing beliefs, not facts.
Perhaps we can have your take on levelling up ??

It's 2023 I cannot believe that anybody connected to the City of Liverpool has anything even remotely positive to say about that woman.

Don @ 21, it's heavily dependent on right wingers.

Barry (42), Yes I get your drift, George Orwell gave me some understanding of Socialism in his book “ The Lion and the Unicorn “ first published in 1941 but some of it went over my head although a lot of his ideas to change how Great Britain was run appealed to me.

Excuse me, can someone direct me to the popcorn machine? I'm going to pull up a chair.

Dave @ 43. I said ‘discussion' not ‘argument'. The fact that you chose to change that word is perhaps part of the problem. Everything has to be polarised.
In the distant past I was chairman of a couple of Conservative Party branches. Lady Thatcher was a fairly regular visitor to these and other local branches. I took every opportunity to meet her and indeed hosted her at my local branches as chairman. I also met her at a number of party conferences. She was most definitely a lady. Charming, personable and actually very amusing. There was no disguising her intellect and determination even in a social setting but she was excellent company.
Incidentally, I also met Tony Benn on a number of occasions when canvassing for the Conservative candidate in his Bristol constituency. I vehemently disagreed with his politics but he was a gentleman. Courteous, friendly, able to share a joke. Ditto Paddy Ashdown
Dennis Skinner on the other hand….

Dale (47) Dale get yourself a big bowl of ice cream it's bleedin' roasting over here!

Thanks Gramps, that will go nicely with the cake!

Geoff (48), I honestly never consciously changed the word discussion into argument, it's the same to me discussion, debate or argument although your lady friend seemed very argumentative to me in the debates at Parliament and you seem to have lapped up every word she said, didn't you ever disagree with her politics like you disagreed with Tony Benns, a man who had to go to court, costing him a lot of money, to get the word Lord changed from his name so he didn't have to go into the House of Lords which he was entitled to, being the son of a Lord, but you are correct he was all the nice things you said about him, not sure about Paddy Ashdown some of his skeletons escaped from his cupboard.

Now Dennis Skinner, he had his faults but he slaughtered some of your Tory friends in Parliament, maybe he was too honest to be liked from your side of the House.

Danny wrote that the US backed the Argies when they invaded the Falklands. Jean Kirkpatrick gave them the nod but she had to shut up when Reagan backed us. US intelligence played an important role in our success. I had recently moved to the US and everyone that I spoke to supported the British.

And of my personal experience of World War 2 I enjoyed the VE street party. 87 Scarisbrick Road.

Dennis Skinner was ace. I may be misquoting slightly but one day in Parliament..
Dennis.." half of that lot opposite are crooks ".
Speaker " out of order, withdraw that remark "
Dennis.." fair enough, half of that lot over there aren't crooks "
😃

Alan, that's pretty much exactly what he said apart from he specifically called them Tories instead of that lot

Stephen [35] and Derek [36]. You are both right about the US warplanes being built in Speke. It was at the huge aircraft hangar, which is now the David LLoyd Tennis Club. If you go into the Club, there is a large [6' by 6'] black and white photograph at the top of the stairs, which shows half a dozen shiny new planes bearing American markings, parked up at the doors of the hangar.

Although WWII is obviously a serious matter, I'll try to lighten the mood. My friend's dad [EFC Season-ticket holder] was called up right at the very end of the war. He actually reported for duty on VE day! He went up to the Duty Sergeant and said 'Here I am'. The RSM looked him up and down and said: 'Just **** off!'

As a graduate in Russian History from London University's School of Slavonic & East European Studies, I will do a proper piece on Stalin and WWII... but not today!

Alan 54

Never liked Skinner or his politics but that is very funny.

Ed 52

It's true the US were ambivalent and actually wanted to negotiate a settlement without a war. They had very much pivoted to S America and were as willing to offer succour to despots in Argentina as we were to Pinochet and indeed Europe today is to China, Saudi or to some extent, even Putin. Realpolitik and all that. In fact it's a supreme irony that the rabidly anti Communist Junta's greatest ally post the invasion was. Castro's Cuba. My enemy's enemy is my friend and all that.

Kirkpatrick was certainly not much on our side and Haig's blundering didn't help. Another irony, given his current antipathy towards the UK, is that Biden was one of our strongest supporters and helped achieved cross party consensus.

Ed 52, good call. While Will Rogers is the most famous and loved Okie, Jean Kirkpatrick was perhaps the most powerful and despicable.

There is no political system that works perfectly.

Communism should in theory be the best but lack of insentive and personal greed has shown its simply not worked in practice.

Our economy has to compete with the rest of the world, to do that you need a forward looking successful business industry.

If you have policies that restrict business success it has a negative effect on general prosperity.There's less employment and your heading for a downturn.

You will always have arguments about how the cake is cut.

What I don't like nowadays is the fact that you are getting too many companies with too much power.

I don't have the figures but we have the situation now where 6 or seven supermarkets are providing a great percentage of the countries food needs, no wonder the prices are going up.

In fact in every sector you look at they are dominated by too few of companies, a lack of greater competion is bad news for the consumer.

I'm not a fan of nationalisation, but there is something to be said for nationlising the energy and water supply, it doesnt sit right when foreign companies are supplying those.

Dave @ 51. I didn't agree with Lady Thatcher on everything but, being basically right-of-centre, of course I disagreed with her less than I did with Mr Benn. I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make reference his need to revoke his title.
I don't have a problem with people from all sides being argumentative in the Commons.
Mr Skinner was indeed excellent in the Commons and I am sure added some much needed colour. I was referring to the only time I met him, again canvassing for the Conservative candidate in his seat, when he told me to ‘f-off Tory boy'.

Thatcher was a haenious individual...but let's not forget it was a dyed in the wool Tory in Michael Hesseltine who refused to give up on the city when she wanted to grind us into the dirt.

Ah yes, Heseltine, I remember him. He was the guy who put his arm around the secretary of the UDM ( scab Notts miners union ), and said they were friends and would look after the UDM and its members. ………Not many years later, the Notts pits were decimated. ( As was the rest of the industry. ) Never trust a Tory minister.

Some decent arguments. Agree with Barry about identity politics. Most/all of them are in it to enrich themselves anyway, like Blair. Like Johnson. Few are actually politicians representing their constituents anymore. As for “real” capitalism (which is essentially evolution with money) it was hijacked years ago. Weather by the military industrial complex, like Eisenhower warned in his ‘51 speech or even earlier by the Central Banks. Latterly by the globalists and the NGO's; it's really a greed based system now. Otherwise the likes of Gates and co would never be able to get so rich and leverage so much power if they weren't allowed to.. There isn't an easy fix but I would suggest scrapping the idea that they're there to represent your views. And that two party politics works….and that Government is a good custodian of your taxes that they collect. It doesn't, they aren't and people should demand far far better (and a fairer society but in that, it doesn't mean that hard working people pay for those that can't be arsed - the key downside risk of actual “socialism” - that they instead have some stake in society worth having, and in the company they work for).

As for 1984, it was written by a “social democrat” but it's about despotic socialism - why? Because the state owns you and your family. The state rules. This is “left wing” = big state, small people, total dependence, little choice. If you run this model to the right you reach anarchy - no state and no government, barter system (think Mad Max post apocalyptic type thing). It's certainly not facism - that's another media myth likely created by the CIA somewhere down the line. And facism isn't the opposite of communism. The Nazi's were big statists. You can be racist and a socialist. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Just think about it.

Minor correction Ed.

I didn't write that the US backed Argentina. They didn't want us to invade. I say invade, counter an aggressor who had invaded a British overseas territory.

I've long given up on politicians. They're pretty much the same. Blair with his false smile and lies. I'd be surprised if he isn't mates with our Bill.

I met Gordon Brown in Afghanistan. He wasn't a fan of the military and is the same back. Very awkward and tense.

I also met David Milliband. Very good. Labour backed the wrong horse/ brother.

Thatcher was devisive. She was more focused on global politics.

And then our very own Degsy. Preached militant socialism yet took his seat in the 500 club.

Like I say, all the same in my view.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Far left, far right? Extremism is Extremism. We're better off with moderate politics. Then we can make an informed decision.

Dale 58. Will Rogers was certainly a great Okie and I had no idea that Kirkpatrick was also one. Thanks for the insight.