What’s the point?

by   |   20/01/2024  39 Comments  [Jump to last]

Feeling exasperated with the Sky 6 and all the VAR, Premier League and FA corrupt unfairness, I decided to do a little research to substantiate my thought that we may as well throw the towel in.

After all, the same favoured teams win every year. The Premier League is not competitive. The same teams win the FA Cup every year as the rest of us put out weakened teams so we can prioritize Premier League safety. So, to prove my point I decided to analyze stats for the last 10 years versus the final 10 years before we had the Premier League.

The results were shocking. In the last 10 years of the corrupt Premier League Sky Big Six era, only four different clubs have won the Premier League trophy. In the same timeframe, only six different teams have won the oldest competition in world football: the FA Cup.

In contrast, when you go back to the good old days of Philip Carter, terracing and Bert Millichip, you find shockingly that, in the last decade of the old First Division… just exactly the same thing happened! There were four clubs that won the First Division Championship and six different clubs teams won the FA Cup!!!

Article continues below video content


Yeah, I was surprised too. Delving deeper there is a greater discrepancy in some respects. The last 10 years of the old First Division saw 13 clubs crack the top four versus 8 in the last decade. Likewise, the Mickey Mouse (League) Cup had 7 different winners versus 4.

But honestly, I was expecting to find 30-odd clubs had been in the top four in the later years of the old First Division, whereas in fact it was just a select group including some of the usual suspects repeatedly: Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs and Manchester United. The real difference is that the currently shamed duo of Everton and Nottingham Forest have been usurped by Chelsea and Manchester City. 

So my attempt to excuse my negativity and hopelessness has been proven to be complete bullshit and in fact, regardless of how we feel, the actual record suggests things on balance are as they were in the Good Old Days of Bracewell, Ian Wilson and Bobby Mimms.

So, I guess that means… UTFT!


back Return to Talking Points index  :  Add your Comments »


Reader Comments (39)

Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer ()


Brendan McLaughlin
1 Posted 21/01/2024 at 01:01:13
Brave Kieran

Won't go down well.

Don Alexander
2 Posted 21/01/2024 at 01:37:54
By the end of the 80's, and even taking into account our very brief success just a few years earlier, I had come to the same conclusion Keiran.

In my life I've seen Ipswich and Forest win the title immediately after promotion. In addition I saw City, Huddersfield, QPR, WBA, Stoke and Sheffield United (and maybe others) make a bloody impressive impact in the top league after their promotions too - but all of that had gone by the wayside by the time 1990 arrived.

The fact that the entire "top-six-preservation-at-all-costs" media and football-governance cabal ever allowed lil' ol' Leicester win the league is as far as I'm concerned a massive hindrance to any other such "lowly" club being able to win it in future.

Media and the FG cabal cited above will move heaven and earth to prevent that.

PL football is sick to the core.

Kieran Kinsella
3 Posted 21/01/2024 at 03:12:30
Brendan

I know mate I’d be frothing at the bit myself if I hadn’t looked at the actual stats. The biggest thing that surprised me was that in the 80s as now Spurs were constantly the bridesmaid never the bride. I really only took a serious interest as a kid in football in the 86/87 season and yes then with Clive Allen’s 40 odd goals Spurs finished third I think and lost the FA cup final. But I recall Saint & Greavsy, and Bob Wilson on football focus often mentioning Spurs fairly recent spell in the second tier so I was surprised to find they were just as much nearly men then as they were now.

Also, Forest. I was aware they’d won the EC when I was 2 years old but I’d forgotten the regular top four material for the next 10 years or so. Although of course like us in Richard Masters terms they’re a “small club.”

Dave Abrahams
4 Posted 21/01/2024 at 08:54:20
Kieran, Football was once a sport, John Moores said so in the late 1950s, but went on to say “It is now a business”. Money might have always played a part but it took over long ago.

I remember when I was a kid – yes, I know the uncle in Only fools and horses – Portsmouth, Wolves and Blackpool were three of the top clubs just by playing fairly regards to the rules, Sunderland tried to buy into that success but got caught paying backhanders to get there.

Now money is the one who does the talking and makes sure it gets listened to, it rules the game and, until it is controlled, will continue to do so, sorry to say!

Alan McGuffog
5 Posted 21/01/2024 at 09:04:18
Dave...

Regarding the history of money and football. Might I recommend the film The Card, starring Alec Guiness. Set in Victorian / Edwardian times, he invests in his local club

Mark Murphy
6 Posted 21/01/2024 at 09:14:57
“What's the point”?

I don't think I've ever supported Everton just for the chance of seeing silverware, even though we have.

If fans only supported a team that had a chance of winning the league, we would all turn into them little lads you see around the country who this year are wearing Man City shirts instead of Liverpool shirts last year and Chelsea the year before that.

There would be no clubs like Wrexham, Leyton Orient, Oldham or Millwall (okay… that wouldn't be a bad thing!) as there's no point.

Whilst I agree with the general point, and I do think something should be done about it, I'll support Everton the rest of my lif,e whatever.

Danny O’Neill
7 Posted 21/01/2024 at 10:24:10
There's always a point, Kieran.

We want Everton to compete. We've never been a dynasty in the way our cousins and Ferguson's Manchester United created. But we are one of the institutions of English football.

Football is indeed rotten but it's still the game we love and can't resist. More so Everton.

I'd follow that club to whatever the Conference is called now if the unthinkable happened. I don't believe it will. Whatever happens, we will all still be Evertonians.

Wolves had padlocks on Molineux. Middlesborough saved from near abyss. Leeds Utd and Manchester City playing in the third tier of English football. Manchester Utd got relegated and even our red cousins were close to the brink and on the brink of administration before Fenway stepped in. Rangers in Scotland.

Stormy weather and choppy seas. You just have to ride it through. We will still be here.

To adapt and put a twist on a oft-used phrase. St Domingo rising from the ashes.

Brian Williams
8 Posted 21/01/2024 at 10:52:37
“Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose”

There was always a cabal of clubs once the game progressed from a working man's escape and local lads playing for their local teams to become the game where players became stars and celebrities and travelled to the "bigger" clubs, and abroad, to play on European and world stages.

The world in general has changed and football has changed with it.

As the amount of money in and around the game has hugely increased so has the whole ethos of the game.

Everything "progresses" as time goes by. Progress isn't always positive unfortunately but the world just seems to become "more" when "more" refers to negative things. More violent, more corrupt, more ruthless. I could go on.

When more money pours into anything, there will always be the sharks and the minnows. Those who seek to consume and control and those who merely seek to exist.

There is no desire to change things because those who control the game want to maintain the status quo because it suits them and the few mega clubs who help to feed them.

And with that in mind I'm off to find a length of rope!

Dave Abrahams
9 Posted 21/01/2024 at 11:10:07
Brian (8), Nice post.

I hope that length of rope is used the same way as the innocent man in The Shawshank Redemption it got him out of that corrupt run prison and a lovely new life.

Put that rope around Everton, Brian, and drag us out of the mess we were put into, but not by the fans.

Brian Williams
10 Posted 21/01/2024 at 11:30:41
Thanks Dave.

Don't worry, mate, once I got that in print, it was out of my system and I return to be the foolish optimist I've always been mate.

Barry Rathbone
11 Posted 21/01/2024 at 11:37:43
Football support is something that should never be scrutinised unless ready to accept being a self-flagellating lunatic.

I arrived at this conclusion in the late 70s and left Liverpool in good part to get away from the absurdity… then we become champions.

There's a moral there somewhere but I'm not sure what it is.

Rob Jones
12 Posted 21/01/2024 at 11:43:47
I love Everton.

If I wanted trophies, I'd have stuck with Man Utd (I was born into a half Mancunian family). Instead, by accident (I was bought an Everton shirt at age seven), I'm an Everton fan.

Every fan base thinks they're something special. I truly think we are. We're defiant, loyal, and I think generally, we have a sense of fairness and right from wrong that I don't think a lot of other clubs have.

I'd love to give up. Because being an Everton fan is a chore. But I love the club, and I know that in general, the average Everton fan is more admirable and worth knowing than any other club's fans.

Tony Abrahams
13 Posted 21/01/2024 at 11:45:56
I supported Everton, because when I saw my dad taking my older brother the match, I also wanted him to take me, and when he eventually got around to taking me, I found out I absolutely loved everything them.

Liverpool were winning everything, but even though I was only very young, I realized that there was always a real defiance about Evertonians, and I think I realized how much our football club meant to us, the day Andy King, scored the goal, that ended our Merseyside drought.

You can’t always win, but you can always compete, and although football is definitely dictated by money, it is also definitely about how well you can run your football club.

Moyes and Kenwright got loads of credit, but if you have a “certain degree of professionalism”, then you should always be able to compete to a standard that your wage bill dictates, so I personally think they got loads of very undue praise?

I thought like this because whilst it was obvious we were never going to win the league, and it was also obvious that we never quite had the squad to go and qualify for the champions league, and yet we still never “really competed” in the cups.

There is absolutely no glory in coming 5/6/7th, unless you also want to at least try and go and win a cup, and this is where Everton football club, have really fallen down, over the last thirty years, imo.

Moyes and Kenwright proved that having stability definitely helped a club of Everton’s stature, easily reach and maintain a certain level of consistency, and this is why I’m desperate for Everton to get decent owners, who have a long term plan for our football club, because this imo, would guarantee that Everton, could go and start winning trophies from time to time, once again🤞

John Raftery
14 Posted 21/01/2024 at 11:51:35
Aside from our great successes in 1984-87 the 1980s decade was generally a dreadful time for the game with poor attendances, slum stadia, hooliganism, antagonistic policing, boring ‘pass the ball back’ tactics and the RS winning five championships. Some of those problems had begun to take hold in the seventies but the game reached its lowest ebb in the eighties.

Whatever we think about the Premier League, and there is no denying the downsides, it has brought about high attendances in safe, modern stadia watching many exciting high quality matches on great pitches. The quality of play has also improved in the EFL and at the top of the non-league pyramid.

Having said all that I count myself lucky to have started watching our club from the mid-sixties which I still consider to be the golden age of football when star players were shared around many clubs. Virtually every club had a player worth watching be it Johnny Haynes at Fulham, Bobby Moore at West Ham, George Eastham at Stoke, Derek Doogan at Wolves, Jimmy Armfield at Blackpool, Peter Osgood (no good!) at Chelsea, Jimmy McIlroy at Burnley, Gordon Banks at Leicester and so on. That was before listing all the stars at Spurs, Leeds, the RS, Manchester United and Manchester City. Good management and yes, some money, could take a club to the top but few believed success could be maintained in perpetuity.

To underline the egalitarian nature of the game success and failure were shared around more equitably. In the ten seasons 1960-69 the league title was won by eight different clubs across four different conurbations plus two small town clubs, Burnley and Ipswich. In the same period eight different clubs shared the FA Cup which was still seen by many as the most important trophy to win.

Danny O’Neill
15 Posted 21/01/2024 at 12:02:33
You say it all, Tony.

I just never knew anything different. As I have said before, when I questioned why I supported Everton at a very young age, I was simply told because you do. There was no going back.

I feel more for my son and youngest brother who grew up with Moyes and Kenwright's interpretation of "success". But they still keep going.

I think I have more respect for them than my idiotic undying following of Everton.

We just want them to compete and bring a trophy home on occasions and European trips for the best supporters in the land.

Give us something to smile about.

Although they put a smile on my face every time I watch them even when I get angry with them. In the rain at Crystal Palace and the replay at Goodison. I was smiling just to be there privileged to be watching the club I have watched all my life be that in the ground, listening on the radio, watching on the telly or having messages sent to me.

Dave Abrahams
16 Posted 21/01/2024 at 12:44:56
Tony (13),

I wish I could say I brainwashed you into becoming a Blue but the truth is you just loved football from the day you were born, we've got photos of you reading the Pink Echo when you were 3 or 4!

About me taking Michael to the match, I couldn't have taken you much earlier, you were 5 when I took you to see your first game: Everton v Altrincham in the cup.

The difference between you and Michael was Michael asked me a hundred questions when I first took him, none of them were about football. He drove me bleedin' crackers answering him while trying to concentrate on the game.

You just sat there enchanted by actually being at the game, never said a word, just followed the ball. No, you just loved football and, of course, if you didn't love Everton, you wouldn't have been allowed to live with us!

Danny O’Neill
17 Posted 21/01/2024 at 13:08:31
Dave,

I remember being told to watch the match when I was taken at a very young age. I was too mesmerised at watching the supporters and got told off. "Why did I bring you?"

That was the telling-off I got so didn't take my eyes off the pitch!

I took my youngest brother (17 years removed) to his first match at Goodison. I can't remember the season but I think it was around 1994 and he was only 5. It was winter if I remember and we won 6-2 against Swindon. The poor lad fell asleep in the second half in the Lower Gwladys so we had to wake him up to take him home!

The Pink Echo. Why can't we bring it back, even if it's online?

Neil Copeland
18 Posted 21/01/2024 at 15:13:32
Hi Kieran, I hope you are well mate, I enjoyed your article, thanks.

I have always thought that Evertonians are a special breed, in general our fan base is well-informed and extremely resilient.

It helps to be optimistic and the away support in particular has always seemed to have positivity in spades (posts on TW from Rob H, Danny, John R, Mark M, Brent and others who travel reflect this trend too). Of course it helps when we are winning trophies (although I think most of us have almost forgotten what that feels like) but we keep going regardless.

Not going to the game would make me a complete nervous wreck so I have respect for those that don't or can't make it to the game and watch on TV, stream it, listen to it etc, it must be murder!

Everton is a way of life, a religion of sorts. Without it, nothing would seem particularly relevant or worthwhile.

My first game was a 1-1 draw at home to Ipswich in 1971, the second was 8-0 at home to Southampton. Dad used to take me in the paddock, I was mesmerised from the moment I stepped into Goodison. I have remained so ever since.

I love this club, they mean the world to me and that is the point.

Ray Roche
19 Posted 21/01/2024 at 15:26:02
Danny @17,

The Swindon 6-2 game was Mike Walker's first game in charge…

Dave Abrahams
20 Posted 21/01/2024 at 16:39:52
Ray (19),

Did Brett Angell play in that game and score for the Blues?

Ray Roche
21 Posted 21/01/2024 at 16:53:55
No Dave, just checked, Cottee got 3, and Ebrell, Beagrie and Ablett.
Gary Gregson
24 Posted 21/01/2024 at 17:03:33
You might find different results if you go back 30 years since the Premier League was formed in 1992.

Only 7 different clubs won it as opposed to 13 in the previous 30 years. Nearly twice as many.

Your argument doesn't stand up. Just go back 5 years and see.

Dave Abrahams
25 Posted 21/01/2024 at 17:13:07
Ray (21),

Thanks. Yes I checked myself because I was sure he scored in a 6-2 game; I was wrong, it was a 4-2 win versus Chelsea which he nearly cocked up from 2 yards!

Amazingly, Joe Royle sold him to Sunderland and we made £100,000 profit on him.

Ray Roche
26 Posted 21/01/2024 at 17:27:40
Dave, and they say we're crap at dealing with signings!!! 🤦🏼‍♂️
Dave Abrahams
27 Posted 21/01/2024 at 17:58:02
Ray (26),

I didn't realise that Bret Angell had two spells at Everton.

He was signed on loan by Howard Kendall, that didn't work out too well, yet Mike Walker took another chance on working his magic wand on Bret and that was a bigger disaster and yet they still have the cheek to say we are crap at signings!

Most clubs who have sold us players think we are brilliant in the transfer market and can't wait to sell us players!!

Ray Roche
28 Posted 21/01/2024 at 18:04:14
Dave, like you, I didn't think we'd lost control of our senses twice! 😳
Billy Shears
29 Posted 21/01/2024 at 18:59:55
As for the FA Cup... the Premier League teams should be all drawn away from home in every round till it's not possible anymore, the extra time and pens should be scrapped as well as the VAR; both Semi-Finals should be held in Cardiff with only. the Final taking place at Wembley

As for the Premier League... scrap the VAR and all 1-0 victories should only get a team two points, not three!... that way, it'll improve the league, blowing it wide open for at least half of the teams in it to possibly win it!

Refine the rules regarding offsides, handballs etc... make the people's game fucking easy to govern and easy for the fans to understand. If any team breaks the laws of the game then punish them evenly and clearly!

Paul Ferry
30 Posted 21/01/2024 at 19:44:25
Yes Gary Gregson (24), I thought the same, that Kieran massaged the statistics to suit his in my opinion misleading argument/post. It's so easy to pick a starting point that distorts the trend you want to show.

The clowns across the park were the one constant and consistent top finishers. If asked to name the top six in say 1976, many would say us, them, the Manchester two, and North London's big two.

Five of those six teams bobbled about a lot in the 1970s and 1980s. There was not the same predictability that we have now, where we know who the top four will be at the start of the season and always get at least three of them right.

Kieran's "what's the point" simply does not stand up to close scrutiny. I'm glad for once that a fair number of posts have wandered off track, and I especially enjoyed Dave and Tony's posts. Dave has written a cracker there.

Question for you Tony. When you play for a team as you did, do you see it as a job where yes you can develop some loyalty but it's nothing like the love that you have for Everton? Do some players switch allegiance, one-club players and so on?

"What's the point"? Try asking that to the 4,000 who had to endure the 0-0 at Palace.

Tony Abrahams
31 Posted 21/01/2024 at 20:07:30
I never quite made it, Paul, but I never saw playing football professionally as being a job. I personally never developed any real affinity for Forest, but I would imagine, if I had played for their first team, that this might have changed.

I remember Paul Wilkinson signing for Forest from Everton, and I remember him telling me how much he loved being at Everton, compared to Forest (he couldn't speak any higher about the Toffees).

Pat van den Hauwe, is another man who has got that much affection for Everton that he ended up getting a big Everton tattoo on his back,

Paul Ferry
32 Posted 21/01/2024 at 20:36:52
Thanks Tony.
Joe McMahon
33 Posted 21/01/2024 at 20:37:40
Tony, you certainly played at higher level than the majority of us. What position did you play?

And Yes, Pat was brilliant, he just gone on with it, top pro!

Tony Abrahams
34 Posted 21/01/2024 at 21:02:00
They used to play me on the wing, or left fullback, but never enough in my preferred position Joe, which was always central midfield.

I think one of the few things that I have ever found easy was playing football, but professional football is different and it wasn't always enjoyable for a variety of different reasons.

I'm certain the experience has definitely helped me many times during my lifetime. Most probably because of the huge amount of discipline that it required.

Kieran Kinsella
35 Posted 22/01/2024 at 03:46:49
Paul Ferry

Obviously the point of my article went over your head.

As stated, I sought to demonstrate how the Premier League was uncompetitive. I chose what I thought was a reasonable timeframe given my age and the fact I only saw football from 10 years prior to the Premier League. To my surprise, the stats didn't reflect that for the league or FA Cup.

So I didn't “massage” statistics to suit my “misleading” opinion – as you'd realize if you could ever come on ToffeeWeb and actually read what people say instead of looking to start a quarrel,

Kieran Kinsella
36 Posted 22/01/2024 at 04:06:18
Gary Gtegson,

Not sure where you got your stats from that “Cross the Mersey” AKA teacher from Our Mutual Friend immediately latched onto as fact but, in the prior 30 years before the Premier League, 9 teams won the league – not 13 as you claim – so not “twice as many” as the 8 since it's inception. Just one more.

But thanks for playing, mate.

Laurie Hartley
37 Posted 22/01/2024 at 06:47:38
Thanks for your article Kieran… but:

Just throwing it out there - since I have been following us (1961), Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea, and Spurs have all been relegated from the top flight.

Actually there are only 2 current Premier League teams that haven't been relegated in that time. Arsenal and, you guessed it, Everton.

The moral of the story – no matter how hard they try they can't kill us!

All together now - singing "We shall not be moved"

Derek Thomas
38 Posted 22/01/2024 at 06:57:33
Dave @ 9; just like in Shawshank, we'll have to swim/make our way through a load of shit yet before we'll pop out into the fresh air - but pop out we will.
Dave Abrahams
39 Posted 22/01/2024 at 09:26:32
Derek (38), Very true Derek.it will be very heavy going and I can’t even swim!!
Kieran Kinsella
40 Posted 22/01/2024 at 15:08:41
Laurie,

Interesting point on relegations. Funnily overall in the Premier League era, 51 teams have played in it. During the last 30 years of Division One, 52 teams featured. So just one more.

But to your point on competitiveness: in the Premier League era, we've only seen Blackburn and Leicester win the league and go on to be relegated from the Premier League.

The last 30 years of the Football League Division 1, we saw Derby County, Leeds Utd, Man Utd, Man City and Aston Villa win the league and get relegated in that time frame. So that and the League Cup lack of winners are probably the best evidence of the impact of the Sky cabal making it uncompetitive.

Jerome Shields
41 Posted 24/01/2024 at 06:18:28
Thanks Kieran for your research.I find that I am not surprised by your findings.The big difference is the money involved, which we probably got near the end of the old First Division era and then was taken to new levels in the Premier League era

Really it is the Management of money that is the problem.Everton had no money.Maybe compensation should have been sought after Hezel.Hezel Stadium 'you could have walked in and out of during a game and there was crumbling masonry everywhere '. A Arsenal friend of mine was at it the year before and that was how he described it.He went to the toilet during the game and found himself outside the Stadium.This was gross negligence by Ueafa selecting such a venue.No doubt someone at Ueafa did well out of it, with no recourse.

After that there was continued mismanagement, the competence of which was exposed when they actually got money invested in the Club.This resulted in where we are now.

The answer to your query existed since rules came into the game - You can not beat the referee.


Add Your Comments

In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.

» Log in now

Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site.


How to get rid of these ads and support TW



© ToffeeWeb