17/11/2023 1041comments  |  Jump to last

Everton have been handed a big 10-point penalty after being found guilty by the Independent Commission of violating Premier League Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR).

The deduction, the first imposed under the League's spending regulations and the biggest sporting sanction in English top flight history, comes into immediate effect and puts the club into the relegation zone on only four points.

In the panel's decision, Everton were found to have exceeded the permitted threshold by a mere £19.5m, although the Commission deemed this to be "a serious breach that requires a significant penalty".

In the Commission’s report, it was detailed that Everton had admitted to breaching PSR but only by £9.7m, an assertion the Premier League countered with their own calculation that the club had gone over the limit by £19.5m. Mitigating factors put forward by the club’s counsel relating to the outbreak of the war in Ukraine that led to the suspension of key sponsorship deals with USM Holdings; the club’s firing of Player X following his arrest in December 2021; interest paid on costs related to the construction of Everton Stadium; further losses and complications caused by the COVID-19 pandemic, including the inability to raise funds with the sale of Player Y; and the Premier League’s 4% Transfer Levy on transfer fees were all dismissed as considerations.

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Instead, the League put forward a number of Aggravating Factors that they felt were appropriate in determining the extent of Everton’s culpability, including “overspend despite repeated warnings”, “misleading the Premier League about stadium interest” and “misleading the Premier League about the intention to sell Player Y”. The Commission decided to eliminate the last factor from consideration and agreed with Everton’s assertion that an improving trend towards PSR compliance went “some limited way to diminish [the club’s] culpability” but ultimately sided with the League on the other factors, agreed that Everton had, to an extent, acted in bad faith, and ruled that only a sporting sanction not a financial penalty would be appropriate for “a serious breach” given owner Farhad Moshiri’s personal wealth.

As expected, the club have announced their intent to appeal what they described as a shocking and disappointing decision in a statement this afternoon:

Everton Football Club is both shocked and disappointed by the ruling of the Premier League’s Commission.

The Club believes that the Commission has imposed a wholly disproportionate and unjust sporting sanction. The Club has already communicated its intention to appeal the decision to the Premier League. The appeal process will now commence and the Club’s case will be heard by an Appeal Board appointed pursuant to the Premier League’s rules in due course.

Everton maintains that it has been open and transparent in the information it has provided to the Premier League and that it has always respected the integrity of the process. The Club does not recognise the finding that it failed to act with the utmost good faith and it does not understand this to have been an allegation made by the Premier League during the course of proceedings. Both the harshness and severity of the sanction imposed by the Commission are neither a fair nor a reasonable reflection of the evidence submitted.

The Club will also monitor with great interest the decisions made in any other cases concerning the Premier League's Profit and Sustainability Rules.

The ruling opens Everton up to the prospect of being sued by clubs who were relegated in the past two seasons after the chair of the commission, David Phillips KC, indicated that Leeds, Leicester, Southampton, Burnley and Nottingham Forest all had “potential claims” for compensation.

 

Reader Comments (1041)

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Ian Pilkington
2 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:36:37
Incandescent with rage.
Michael Connelly
3 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:39:00
Much better get a 10-point deduction when you're 8 points outside the drop zone, I suppose.

Put in an appeal, and if we are outside the Bottom 3 at the end of the season, promptly withdraw the appeal.

No doubt it's the Premier League appeasing the teams that went down over the last couple of seasons, and put in complaints.

Roger Helm
4 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:40:20
There are a lot of comments on the previous thread which could be moved here.
Stephen Colby
5 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:41:00
Shouldn't the points deduction only come into effect once our appeal has been heard?

Also had the loan for the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock been taken out with a financial institution, then this expense would have hit the project cost line.

And also, the 3-year period covers Covid when we were unable to offload our player liabilities as nobody was buying.
Very very unfair.

Barry Hesketh
6 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:41:06
Right we take this on the chin, try and retrieve the situation out on the pitch, that's part one.

Then we have to ensure that 777 Partners or some other lender keeps the club afloat for the immediate future, then submit our latest accounts and hope there are no issues with what are in them.

Then we need to see if 777 Partners or A N Other will buy the club. Oh and also try and keep whatever good players we have left in the January window.

No wonder Dyche reckoned he could write a book about Burnley following his extended stint at Turf Moor, but could already write a trilogy about his short period at Everton.

David McMullen
7 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:41:14
We'll stay up.

But there's a stench of corruption here. Even if Everton are guilty (there's some conjecture about what it is we've done wrong, the tax on the stadium mentioned) then the punishment is more than harsh!

I hope Everton come back from this with counter-claims and allegations.

Geoff Lambert
8 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:41:34
I would let the Premier League know we will be backing any future moves by the big-money teams who want to leave and form their own Super League.
David McMullen
9 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:42:17
Stephen (5) on TalkShite, they were saying it is enforced immediately and only overturned if we win the appeal.
Mark Yeomans
10 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:43:07
Bent as hell, this game now.

So we have been handed a 10-point deduction with immediate effect for 1 financial breach, yet Man City have had 115 breaches being known for 2 years but no points deduction. Based on Everton's deduction, city should be getting 1150 points deduction.

Not to mention Chelsea now.

We just do not have Saudi lawyers…

Lukaku has been sold x3 times over short period for approx £80 mill a pop. You can't tell me these fees were paid and not on tick + combined with wages these deals are all very murky.

We can only appeal over disproportionate punishment so unlikely to be upheld.

Kieran Kinsella
11 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:45:38
What the fuck!
Brian Wilkinson
12 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:45:38
If we are guilty, then we only have ourselves to blame, but every other team needs to be brought to account as well.

This will work in our favour, we will get enough points to climb out of the Bottom 3, the crowd and players will now be right up for it.

I will make an apology to John Snr and the girls beforehand, in regards to language, but on this occasion I fully expect Goodison to be singing to the rafters, "You can stick your fucking 10 points up your arse."

We have been made an example of, this will spur us supporters and the team on going forward.

Goodison will be rocking for the Man Utd game and I fully expect the ref to bottle it big time with the intimidation around Goodison.

Michael Lynch
13 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:45:44
Totally disproportionate to the offence. No team has ever been deducted this many points, despite others facing far worse charges and committing far worse offences.

If this is setting a precedent, then surely clubs will now be docked points for any minor breaches of the rules – up to and including threatening to set up new competitions, taking money from corrupt regimes, managers speaking out against refereeing decisions, and – in the case of the RS – being insufferable bellends.

Tony Everan
14 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:45:49
Stephen, there is some wider precedent for this, so our lawyers will be filing to get this point deduction suspended pending the appeal. I am expecting we'll hear more about this soon.
Barry Hesketh
15 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:46:28
Can you imagine the hue and cry that would follow if Everton were say 2 points clear of the relegation places late in the season and the appeals committee decides that the 10-point reduction should be reduced to say 6-points?

The appeal won't in any circumstances result in a reduction of the current penalty.

Ed Prytherch
17 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:47:38
Bill Kenwright's legacy.
John Pickles
18 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:47:45
Spending until you became successful used to be the way the Sky Darlings operated. Now the proof is for all to see that they have well and truly pulled the drawbridge up and we, of course, are the first ones to have the boiling oil dumped on.

If only we had an accountant running the club.

Peter Moore
19 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:48:15
'Tis but a scratch.

Leave this shit behind and let's climb that table!

UTFT!

Steve Brown
20 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:48:26
Well the fan base will be united after this, and the team is doing a lot better.

And at least we know what we have to do now.

Goodison will be rocking all season.

Minik Hansen
21 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:49:43
Currently at 19th in the Premier League table:

Two points away from Luton (17th).
Five points away from Bournemouth (16th).
Eight points away from Fulham (15th).

Until the appeal is answered.. (Juventus anyone?)

It should be interesting to try and catch up on Fulham and Nottingham Forest, anything can happen.

Instill the right attitude on our players and the home and away fans, then it's possible. Form-wise it's a good time to do it. Just got to keep grinding, keep going. Time for our blue boys to show their efficiency.

December has lots of matches for all the teams with few points away from each other, it's gonna be mind crippling for all. I say bring it on!!!

Pete Neilson
22 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:51:03
So disproportionate it beggars belief. Purely subjective as well, no predefined scale of potential punishments.

Imagine this in any other setting. No transparency whatsoever. If this is the punishment for exceeding the £105M threshold by £19.5M then presumably the likes of Man City and Chelsea will plummet into non-league and be stripped of any honours.

Of course no punishment at all for those who tried to create a breakaway league. The game is so rigged both on and off the field, they don't even try to disguise it.

Jimmy I'Anson
23 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:52:33
We should turn up at away games too, tickets or not!! 20,000 strong!!!
Roger Helm
24 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:53:05
Even bigger than the penalty for going into administration, and the likes of Chelsea and Man City get no sanction at all.

Totally disproportionate and blatantly political. In a fair system, it would be tossed out on appeal, but this is football, rotten to the core.

Jim Wilson
25 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:53:22
Everton found 'guilty of violating Premier League profitability and sustainability rules' should not mean any points deduction. It is outrageous that the Premier League, a corrupt league in my opinion, should treat our club in this way.

We should take them to court and we should threaten to leave the Premier League.

Far worse crimes have been committed by Man City and Chelsea, far worse.

The so-called Super 6 were forming a new competition behind the Premier League's back, a far far worse crime.

We have already been punished for 2 years because of transfer restrictions that almost cost us relegation, and now this.

How can you do this mid season? It has just given the clubs below us the biggest incentive to fight for survival they could have ever hoped for.

Covid was a world pandemic, for God's sake, we happened to be spending big as it happened and now the Premier League think we should pay a price for spending at the wrong time. They gave clubs an allowance to get them under the spending limit but not enough to help us.

No, if we are to be punished, every club that was over the spending limit should be penalised.

This is absolutely a huge piece of injustice. The punishment does not fit the crime. Everton should now pursue every legal avenue to stop this corrupt organisation.

Julian Wait
26 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:53:52
A mere flesh wound. Let's bite their legs off!!
Lyndon Lloyd
27 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:56:19
Bear with us, Roger (4). I was literally trying to peck the news story out standing in a moving airport tram, hence the initial “20-point” typo in the intro. 😂

Amazed by the severity of this penalty. That's one hell of a precedent they've set there…

Danny Baily
28 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:56:53
10 points is right on the cusp of being a fatal blow to our survival hopes. Devastating stuff.

Really shocking to see how we've been made an example of, and really worrying when it comes to the future of the club.

Justin Doone
29 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:57:15
1. I'm not surprised.

2. Our big-headed, big-mouthed owner hasn't helped.

3. Appeal, delay and counter the rules and clear lack of transparency about sanctions and punishment.

4, Whilst I understand why football wants to bring in stronger financial governance, Mr Moshiri, whilst having many faults, isn't draining Everton of resources for financial gain and there's no sign he would allow us to go bankrupt. So the rules need not apply.

5. Until the Premier League can clearly demonstrate they have the authority and power to implement the rules fairly against all clubs, any ruling is discriminative.

6. £20M should have been £200M+ and we may have at least witnessed and created some on-field success. Trying to play fairly hasn't helped on or off the pitch.

7, It makes the season more interesting.

Paul Hughes
30 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:57:44
Totally disproportionate. But we've got to assume the appeal will come to nothing – and so we have got to save ourselves.

We are, as it stands, only 2 points off safety. Win next Saturday and screw the Premier League.

Jamie Crowley
31 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:57:51
Just woke up and my non-soccer friends were texting me about the news.

Fucking hell – I'm shocked to be honest. We really must be a mess financially, worse than anyone thought.

This is what you get when you write hot checks. This is why there are profitability and sustainability rules.

There's going to be a lot of, "What about Man City?" and, "The Premier League has a vendetta against us" and the like.

Look inward. Everton, like it or not, has been spending that which they do not have, they've broken the rules, they've been punished. I'm sorry, but we probably deserve this if they are smacking us with 10 points. We've done shit so askew of the Premier League's rules, we've been hit with the boulder.

Moshri need to sell now. This is embarrassing as fuck. We're cheaters or idiots, neither very good.

We can stay up. We need new ownership, ethical ownership (probably not 777 Partners to be honest), and we need to stay up.

Fucking embarrassing and what a fucking mess.

Steve Brown
32 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:58:15
Danny, don't relegate us in November for a second season!
Steven Kendrew
33 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:59:26
Was there no insurance of any kind for the loss of value of Sigurdsson in those circumstances? You would think it would be a standard requirement these days?
Mark Boullé
34 Posted 17/11/2023 at 13:59:36
I am absolutely raging.

A substantial part of our losses can surely be attributed to being forced to cut ties with Usmanov by Government sanctions.

However distasteful or ill-gotten his money may have been, the fact remains that neither the Premier League nor the Government were bothered about him being an investor in Arsenal for years, then subsequently Everton, until the war in Ukraine suddenly became the fashionable cause du jour.

Why should Everton suffer as a result of losses incurred during a period of Government sanctions nobody could have predicted?!

Steve Brown
35 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:01:16
Steven, we tried to offset £10 million from our losses because we chose not to sue his ass.
Brian Williams
36 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:01:30
At least it clears up what we were being charged with which a lot of posters on here refused to accept was the case, coming up with various reasons to do with tax avoidance on the stadium, transfer impropriety and the like.

It appears that the club have been caught red-handed from the little I heard on TalkShite but the deduction is ridiculously disproportionate to the amount over the allowed.

Man City's case could take another couple of years to be dealt with as it's so "complicated." As for Chelsea, and others, all we can do is wait and see.

Duncan McDine
37 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:02:09
The term "Independent Commission" is fucking priceless. We just weren't able to bribe the right people since our money-man was sanctioned.
Tony Everan
38 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:02:18
10-point deduction disproportionate?

Here's what Man Utd got from Uefa for their breach.

Uefa has fined Manchester United €300,000 (£256,785) for breaching Financial Fair Play rules over a four-year period between 2019 and 2022. Erik ten Hag has been handed a smaller summer transfer budget to work with despite the club publishing financial results last month, with revenue up by 11 per cent. Man United blame historic issues and previous FFP rules for the fine.

Frank Crewe
39 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:02:23
They put the deduction at 10 points to try and put us off an appeal. As an appeal carries the risk that they could increase the deduction to 12 points.

As it is, we are only 2 points behind now 16th place Luton. That seems catchable to me. But if Everton are to be the yardstick for points deductions for one charge, what points deduction will they have to hand City, and now apparently Chelsea as well for far more numerous alleged breaches and far worse breaches than ours?

They have opened a can of worms here and it's going to get a lot worse for the Premier League than just a points deduction for Everton. Because I think every club in the Premier League is fiddling the books and, once the Premier League start down this road, there is no way to know where it will end.

On a side issue, I would also point out that the reason the Premier League is so globally popular is because it spends the most cash to bring in the world's best players. If this is stopped, then those players will go where the money is.

I'm looking at the oil states who are not restricted in their spending by FFP rules. Silly buggers will destroy their own product to keep the likes of Burnley happy.

Dave Waugh
41 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:02:49
Fuming!

Does anyone actually know the appeals process and how long it takes?

Stephen Davies
42 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:03:55
The Report is damning. The bottom line is that Everton tried to pull the wool over their eyes.

Yes there was some bad luck... See Player X injury (Tosun?)
The deal with USM.

But the incompetence of the Board was the catalyst: A Theatre Impresario, an ex Charity Boss, an ex Footballer and a Director of Football. all listening to the orchestra play while the ship was heading straight for the iceberg.

Steven Kendrew
43 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:04:37
We need to ramp up the blue smoke and unbearable noise welcoming committee again for every home game this season. Bring out the flying Alsatian too…..lol.

Seriously, we need to use every trick in the book now and show these cunts!

Garry Martin
44 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:05:00
The Premier League has now reached a new corrupt level.

Okay, there may or may not be some questionable moves by Everton, however, the Premier League have now demonstrated favourability and corruption towards other teams on the same issues, ie, Man City.

Ged Simpson
45 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:06:21
17 and 19. Bang on. We fight and next year ask "What next?"

Useless owners and admin though.

Useless.

Brian Wilkinson
46 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:06:28
That's a fair point, Steve in regards to Sigurdsson but, at the end of the day, it was Everton who chose to take him out of the spotlight and not play him.

If it is in regards to a tax oversight on the new stadium, we need to get Ken Dodd's solicitor on the case.

Paul Jamieson
47 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:06:50
These fuckers won't be happy till they see us relegated – does this now mean the likes of Burnley, Leeds, Leicester are lining up to sue us?
Bill Hawker
48 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:07:43
First to get hit by the infamous FA diving panel? Everton
First to get buggered by VAR and consistently? Everton
First to get a points deduction for "violating" rules? Everton

Everton, a club of firsts.

Fuck the Premier League and their corruption.

At this very moment, I'd be okay with the Super League happening, the Premier League being disbanded, and the old First Division coming back with the remaining clubs.

Charles Brewer
49 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:09:29
This shithouse game is more bent than the Mafia-run boxing business in the 1950s.

The Premier League will now be decided by a cascade of points deductions, results on the pitch being now largely irrelevant.

John Atkins
50 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:09:59
Right … fucking gloves off, you bunch of hypocritical bastards.

This club and its fans have to raise the siege mentality to a level never seen before.

Every game needs be a cup final, intimidate the officials, Goodison not only needs to be a fortress but a place nobody is looking forward to coming to.

You corrupt bastards.

Paul Kossoff
51 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:10:05
I genuinely feel sick. We have suspected for a while that the powers that be have an agenda against us for some reason, now this is proof. I hope we take the bastards to the cleaners but I don't think we have the cash for that.

What next? Possibly 777 Partners will pull out and we will be left in limbo and only God can take us out of it.

I wonder what the squad and management feel right now?

I hope poor Bill Kenwright has a word with Jesus Christ and gets things put right.

What next? God knows. Sad days indeed for all Blues… and are others shaking in their boots?

Peter Gorman
52 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:11:52
I'm sure it has been pointed out already but how can the points deduction exceed that of a club going into administration!

Ridiculous but fingers crossed this galvanises the players.

Nobody likes us… but we don't care!

Jimmy Hogan
53 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:13:16
I don't want to be a doom monger, but it could get worse, as it opens the door for Leicester, Leeds, Burnley and Southampton to sue us.
Steve Brown
54 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:15:20
We are the form team outside the Top 8, and we are only 2 points from safety.

Fuck em. Turn Goodison into an furnace and batter shitty Man Utd and Nottm Forest.

Appeal the size of the points deduction and move.

Mal van Schaick
55 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:15:31
Nothing to lose on appeal: 2 points. Others relegated.

Clubs talking of suing is. Ha ha. Win the appeal, and we can sue the independent body for false representation.

Big boys will wade in because they're next.

Joshua Steadman
56 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:15:32
Absolutely gutted. And I was actually enjoying being an Evertonian once again!

I think this could finish us. Some fans stating how poor other sides are, but results were improving for all the sides below us except for Burnley.

I also think Leeds, Southampton and Leicester will now sue.

What an absolute mess. Another one of Bill's good times.

I feel so sorry for Dyche, Woan and Stone.

Anybody have any idea how soon the appeal will take place?

Jason Hewly
57 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:16:35
"No sporting advantage"

But here's a sporting disadvantage as a punishment. Completely disproportionate.

If other clubs are held to the same standards, then Chelsea and Man City are relegated out of all the professional leagues and most of the non-professional leagues.

Jim Wilson
58 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:16:43
It is the punishment that the club needs to focus on.

Yes, there has been incompetence and that goes on at most cubs.

The point is there has been far worse crimes committed over the years with no points deduction as punishment.

The punishment does not fit the crime, plain and simple.

Colin Leckey
59 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:16:49
Worth reading the full decision. Afraid the reality is it's the appalling management we've known about for years, not some conspiracy. There's loads of stuff that has you with your head in your hands, but here's a prime example:

137. It helps to stand back from all the detail that has been put before us and to see the overall picture. Everton's PSR difficulties are not attributable to the costs of the stadium development. Those costs were excluded from the PSR calculation in respect of the period before planning permission was granted by reason of the 13 August 2021 agreement, and thereafter by the ability to capitalise relevant costs by the application of FRS 102.

The cause of Everton's PSR difficulties was the fact that it overspent (largely on its purchase of new players and its inability to sell other players), and because it finished lower in the league than it had projected in FY 2022 (16th against the projected 6th – causing a loss of expected income of c.£21 million). Everton's understandable desire to improve its on-pitch performance (to replace the non-existent mid field, as Mr Moshiri put it in evidence) led it to take chances with its PSR position: those chances resulted in it exceeding the £105 million threshold by £19.5 million.

138. The position that Everton finds itself in is of its own making – it is Everton's responsibility to ensure that it complies with the PSR regime. The excess over the threshold is significant. The consequence is that Everton's culpability is great. We take into account the fact that Everton's PSR trend over the relevant four years is positive, but cannot ignore the fact that the failure to comply with the PSR regime was the result of Everton irresponsibly taking a chance that things would turn out positively. Further, Everton was less than frank in its dealings with the Premier League over the stadium interest issue. The reality is that Everton failed to manage its finances so as to operate within the generous threshold of £105 million. Its mismanagement led to that threshold being exceeded by £19.5 million.

John Atkins
60 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:17:24
“You can stick Premier League up your arse” ….. there you have – it our new song.

Let's face it: Football today isn't what it was… money, Sky and greedy agents have ruined the game and taken it away from those who care passionately.

I'm 56 and remember when it was pure. Our beautiful game has been raped, violated and left in the gutter to die.

RIP

Brent Stephens
61 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:18:28
The Premier League statement can be found at Link

which has a link to the full report by the Commission.

Dave Lynch
62 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:19:24
I said a while ago that the Arabs would asset-strip the Premier League of its best players, I also think the Super League will be back on the agenda soon.

Then... if the 6 go, the FA will look to the remaining big clubs for income, we will be one of, if not the best-supported clubs left and should tell them to fuck off in every possible way imaginable

Ed Prytherch
63 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:19:25
Jimmy 53,

It is bad news for Moshiri as that is now a liability in the purchase of the club. He will have to take a hit for it.

Rick Tarleton
64 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:20:31
I half expected 12 points to be deducted. Moshiri and Kenwright have hoped it would go away or that Man City would be dealt with first and precedence would thus be established. But we were the easy target. In this particular season, the deduction may not be fatal, given the quality of last season's promoted teams.

I think we have to accept this and look forward to Man City and Chelsea being judged by the same criteria and given a pro-rata punishment, so we'll see them both playing Bury next season.

Jim Wilson
65 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:20:58
'Its mismanagement led to that threshold being exceeded by £19.5 million'

- big wow. That is a 10 points deduction crime is it?

It is a total disgrace.

Charles Brewer
66 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:22:11
At least we now know the extent of the corruption and it is now up to Dyche, Tarkowski, Doucouré and the fans to instill a "We can take this shit and shove it right back at the cheating arseholes" on the rest of the team.

A Millwall, Duncan Ferguson, Dogs of War attitude is what's wanted, and I suspect Evertonians are the lots to deliver it.

Goodison's final season needs to be a seething cauldron of terror for visiting teams and bent officials.

Jamie Crowley
67 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:25:41
Charles @66 -

I agree. Goodison needs to be a demonic pit of hell for any opposing club.

Mark Ryan
68 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:25:47
I'm the eternal optimist and I'm just glad the decision is now made.

This is not the time for comparing us to Man City or anyone else. We need to appeal but accept we simply need to survive this season and we can do this.

The team is on the up. The stadium is getting built. We have new-found impetus in the team and the millstone is now lifted, it's 10 points. We just need to survive and fuck the lot of them.

But make no mistake, this is our own club's issue. It was us that spunked millions on dross players and we have managed ourselves into this situation. Thankfully we are turning a corner on and off the pitch.

UTFTs

Frank Sheppard
69 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:26:23
Two things from me:

1. The points deduction is very damaging, but not necessarily fatal.

2. That we got anywhere near this financial position is clear and undisputed evidence of total incompetence and naivety at boardroom level.

Jonathan Oppenheimer
70 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:26:30
Fuck ‘em all, the independent commission, the Premier League, our owners and board, the top 6 assholes, the Leeds and Burnley owners.

Now we carry our club once more through the fire. We all thought 2 years of it should've been enough, but turns out we have to do it one more time.

We've got the manager and squad now to do it. And let's show everyone why we're the best club and supporters in the land.

Jonathan Tasker
71 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:26:51
Everton fans criticising the Premier League are addressing the wrong target.

This is the inevitable result of 34 years of Kenwright destroying the club from within. Everton have been the worst run club in the 92-club pyramid for years.

Chris Hockenhull
72 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:28:18
Total togetherness needed – no ifs or buts. The moaners can all do one for the rest of the season, here and elsewhere. We do this as one and roar this club over the line.

After the positive improvement from the team, the squad must be feeling shattered by this and have to sit around for a week- which may or not be a good thing.

Positivity is the key and it starts now. No surrender. All Together Now!!!! COYB

Jer Kiernan
73 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:29:08
Thanks, Bill.

Shame on the club if there is any reference to this gimp on the new Stadium,

I look forwards to Man City being placed in the Conference League for their discrepancies (at least they actually benefited from their breaches).

The Game is rancid to the core.

Andy Duff
74 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:31:06
The relegated clubs can't sue us as it clearly states no sporting advantage gained. Having read the findings, the punishment does not fit the crime. Looking forward to the media experts coming out saying you can't punish the fans.

However, it is also a damning verdict on the running of the club. I can't believe some people want to name a stand after one of the people responsible for this. Let this be their true legacy and not be forgotten.

Jamie Crowley
75 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:31:54
Rick @ 64,

I think the Premier League know exactly what they are doing.

Man City and Chelsea will get hit with the same book.

Teams are spending stupid amounts of money and have unsustainable wage bills. It's insane. I think the Premier League recognizes this can't continue. They're going to be very, very harsh with any profitability and sustainability rules that have been broken.

This will send a clear message to any Premier League team not to get crafty with finances or overspend.

And Everton, bless them, put themselves in this position. Anger is being directed at the Premier League on this thread when it should be directed inward at ownership who executed a litany of financial moves and expenditures that weren't feasible.

We've been completed mis-run, if that's a word. It's shameful, and the entire Board should be sacked and the owner run out of town. This level of financial mismanagement is so incredibly unethical and frankly stupid.

Paul Kossoff
76 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:33:56
Our shit street just got longer and deeper.

Relegated clubs have applied for compensation.

The chair of the commission, David Phillips KC, also referenced applications for financial compensation from current Premier League clubs Burnley and Nottingham Forest and last season's relegated sides, Leicester City, Leeds United and Southampton.

Phillips said he was "satisfied that the applicant clubs have potential claims for compensation" - but noted the commission holds no "inherent jurisdiction" and it is instead "the role of the Premier League to bring and prosecute complaints".

Barry Hesketh
77 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:34:12
We usually as fans don't react to possible relegation until there's only nine or ten games remaining; now we have the opportunity to begin right away and it's imperative that we do.

Someone has said that Everton are looking to get the points deduction suspended. I can see why they would do that, but it wouldn't change the fact that those points are going to be removed.

I'm putting the heating on – someone just said it's minus 10.

Joshua Steadman
78 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:34:25
So an appeal can take to the end of the season? That is ridiculous.
Duncan McDine
79 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:37:06
I agree Jamie, but we have to direct our anger at someone... and the 3 main people to blame are either:-

1. Hiding from their responsibilities.
2. Busy supporting a warlord.
3. No longer with us.

Dave Abrahams
80 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:37:43
I think everyone is in a state of shock with this extravagant decision but I take heart from Paul Kossoff @ (51):

"I hope poor Bill Kenwright has a word with Jesus Christ and gets things put right' … Fuckin hell!

Dale Self
81 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:38:16
This decision has threatened my support for the Premier League as a community of clubs. Without reference to further action on other violations, I am left to believe the Premier League and Football Association are there to regulate how smaller clubs attempt to raise their capacity to compete. I am not saying we should go unpunished, I am demanding consistent punishments.

The Premier League and Football Association will have to step up soon with a statement or they simply lose my interest. I will be singularly focused on Everton recovering from this incident and simply won't be bothered with any other outcomes. I may watch but I doubt that will last past a couple of viewings of clubs that get away with larger-scale tricks.

We could circulate some actual names of individuals who served this cause of restoring the Premier League's image. The show is over, let's have a chat with the stars and monitor their continued leadership on this matter. The Premier League seems so impersonal.

Ray Roche
82 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:39:05
Jamie, the Premier League are shit scared of Government interference in the form of a regulator to oversee things. If the Premier League can show that they can keep their house in order, then they hope to avoid the interference.

Batter lowly Everton with a big hit and hope the ‘problem' goes away, then, back to the status quo, ie, Man City and the money-making rich kids can continue as they were.

David McMullen
83 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:42:02
As per TalkShite, they report the commission (I'm not sure if it was the commission or the Premier League) say they are satisfied Everton haven't gained any sporting advantage.

Yet they give us a sporting punishment. Aye? How so?

On the flipside, Simon Jordan suggested Everton don't dispute the crime, but the severity.

What is 'the crime' then? Is it the spending and losses? Or the tax issue?

The spending is over. But didn't Everton work with the Premier League? The penalty is massively severe. Massively.

The Premier League are clearly flexing their muscle and making an example of Everton. But, are they acting with integrity? What happened to the scum 6 trying to form the European Super League?

Look at their penalty. There was no points deduction, you can't punish the fans!

What about the other clubs who have financial fair play open secrets (Man City, Chelsea) far worse than Everton. One of Chelsea's punishments was a transfer ban. Why did we not get a transfer ban?

And exactly where do we stand when the other clubs, Burnley, Leicester, Leeds etc, come knocking on our door?

Everton need to fight this and call out the Premier League.

Ian Hollingworth
84 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:42:28
10 points just means we are unlikely to qualify for the Champions League this season.

Fuck the lot of em — UTFT!!!

Andy Duff
85 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:43:19
The worry about this appeal is how long it will take. If we are very close at the end of the season and rescinding or reducing it relegates another club, there will be further legal challenges.

The FA needs to get the appeal heard well before the end of the season.

Surely there are other legal avenues too. Court of Arbitration etc. Could it be that we end up ending the season not knowing which league we'll be in next season?

If we are relegated over this, I think I'll actually give up on football all together. My season ticket will go and I'll never watch another game. Football. The game is corrupt and has been ruined by money. The fact offences over 9 years ago have not yet been heard yet ours was fast-tracked shows you how corrupt the game is.

Dale Self
86 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:45:40
Ha! They already updated the table.

Looks great, we are going to kick the fuck out of them all and climb our way back. My 90s childlike hate for any club richer than us just got revived.

UTFT! Fuck the suits!

Barry Hesketh
87 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:46:21
Jamie @ 75,

I think you're being far too lenient on the Premier League, it's not as if Everton weren't cooperating with it, and until the Government began shouting about independent regulators, the same league was more than happy with what the club were doing and how it was doing it. Covid hit every club; losses of sponsorship due to the sanctions imposed because of the Ukraine war, did not.

The 10-point deduction is bad enough, but what Paul refers to above is far more concerning as Everton being dragged through the courts by rival clubs could be catastrophic for our club and indeed the football industry.

Of course the owner and the board are culpable for the decisions they made, whether they were made deliberately or naively, and none of those who put us in this situation will be here this time next year, but the real question would be, will Everton remain in place?

Pete Neilson
88 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:47:37
Looking through the 41 page Premier League Commission judgement, plenty of reference to how the EFL apply points deduction sanctions but then it states that they, the Premier League, don't follow this.

Instead “There is no fixed formula to be applied: we are required to determine the extent of the culpability, and from that to determine the points deduction. That requires the exercise of our discretion as a specialist panel, and a determination to be made based on all the facts of the case.”

No transparency whatsoever, a purely subjective call. In what other line of business does a “professional” administrative body have such opaque power as to be able to potentially destroy a member? In this digital age with increased demands for transparency, the Premier League looks unfit for purpose. Their severe sanctions have come from little more than “smoke-filled rooms”. It stinks.

Mark Stanley
89 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:48:18
I see Sky now reporting that Leicester, Leeds and Burnley are going to sue us for £300M. Presumably Burnley for the 2021-22 season and the other two for 2022-23.

If this is true, and we know how Sky love to sensationalize everything, it is going to get very, very messy.

Jamie Crowley
90 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:49:05
Dale,

I am not saying we should go unpunished, I am demanding consistent punishments.

Ray,

If the Premier League can show that they can keep their house in order, then they hope to avoid the interference.

I couldn't agree more with either of these statements and sentiments.

The reality is Everton, quite unfortunately, are first up to bat. So, we got absolutely hammered.

I have to believe, despite eons of favoritism shown to the "bigger" clubs, there will be consistency of punishment.

We will have to wait and see what happens with Man City and Chelsea. I think they will both incur similar points deductions. Both clubs will easily stay up with this level of deduction, Everton are a different matter.

If the Premier League does as I expect, which again I understand might seem remarkable to some, and stay consistent with their penalties, there's nothing to see here.

Any league in sport must be well run financially, and they must ensure their members run a clean ship financially. The Premier League should enforce those rules equally across all member clubs. I honestly think they will, call me naive. I think they see a 15-year robust economy coming to an end soon, and they have to get their member clubs in order and send a message for the future.

And lastly, and certainly not least, it is the ownership of Everton that put us in this shithole of a place. We fucked ourselves. That woman from Game of Thrones is standing over Bill's grave and in front of Moshri's house, ringing in cadence said bell, saying, "Shame! Shame! Shame!"

Pat Kelly
91 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:51:43
777 Partners should suspend their proposed takeover till the appeal is heard. Is remaining in the Premier League a condition of the purchase?

Put pressure on the Premier League. Do they really want to see Everton go out of business over this? It would rock the Premier League to its core.

Time to take a gun to the gunfight.

Kieran Kinsella
92 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:51:53
The report says the FA banned Sigurdsson.

I was always under the impression it was a club decision but evidently it wasn't. In which case, why did the FA ban him when a multitude of other players arrested, and some who unlike Sigurdsson actually went on trial were not banned and continued to play for their clubs?

Again, one rule for Man City, Arsenal, Man Utd and another for Everton. Also, had we sued Sigurdsson and he somehow coughed up £10 million, what would have happened when he was released without ever facing any charges? Would we have had to pay him back?

Also, who is Player Y? We gave Calvert-Lewin a new contract in March and the panel says Player Y got a new contract during the summer.

Jim Wilson
93 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:52:19
The club must go down every legal avenue to fight this as it is clearly far too severe a punishment.

Of course we can win enough points to stay up but we don't know how the season will pan out. Referee and VAR bad decisions plague us. Injuries are never far away, and what will we be able to spend in January?

There is no way we can take a chance on winning enough points in this corrupt league. It is make or break time legally.

John Pickles
94 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:53:17
I can see why Burnley may sue us, but what case do Leeds and Leicester have?

The 'crime' was 21-22, if Everton had have been relegated instead of Burnley, who knows where Burnley would have finished last season?

Anyway, Leeds finished 19th, how do we affect them?

Steve Brown
95 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:53:26
Kieran,

Player Y is Richarlison I guess.

Jamie Crowley
96 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:54:01
Barry @75,

The Premier League most definitely has issues with consistency of the application of sanctions in most forms.

What I'm saying is two things:

1. I do understand why they've done this, and think they've made the decision to put their foot down moving forward for any club; and,

2. We put ourselves in this mess. Some responsibility must be owned for our financial idiocy.

Francis van Lierop
97 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:56:22
Shocking!
John Wilson
98 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:57:23
Right. Does anyone have this 41 page report, according to John Blane off Toffee TV, in PDF?

I knew they would come after Everton simply because we are too transparent in our corruption. Many teams in the Premier League and Championship, in addition to Man City and Chelsea in the Premier League obviously, have breached P&S rules.

Man City and Chelsea, I am guessing, likely have used shell companies or other disguise devices to kick Premier League investigations into the long, long grass.

As other Everton content providers have said, the 6 left to start the Super League and then come back with promises of no sanctions, as it would hurt the fans: the narrative.

Newcastle ownership was put through apparently when everyone was asleep, this tactic is not unusual for putting secondary law through.

Is it time to adorn our tinfoil hats or is there a "Hate Everton" agenda narrative? 10-point deduction since the Premier League starting circa 20 years ago.

If this was Liverpool in Everton's position, or Chelsea, or Man City, would it be the same punishment.... answers on a digital micro stamp. The Premier League needs the so-called Top 6, so No is the probable answer.

Mick O'Malley
99 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:57:54
Johnathan and Jamie, agreed, there is no conspiracy.

Why would they want to relegate us? The only people at fault are the owner and our useless board. We are a badly run football club and now it's biting us on our arse.

Man City and Chelsea will also get their penalties if and when found guilty but I honestly can't believe the Premier League has it in for us, the blame for this rests with Moshiri.

Rob Halligan
100 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:59:37
Any of the clubs relegated last season, who are now considering suing as a result of this decision, should be aiming their case towards the Premier League, and suing them.

Had this points deduction been applied last season, then we would have gone down, and Leicester would have stayed up, so sue the Premier League for taking so fucking long to get it sorted.

And besides, on what grounds have Leeds and Southampton got for suing? After all, they would still have gone down. And why Nottm Forest, what grounds have they got?

Kim Vivian
101 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:59:57
A worthy description of how Goodison Park will be appearing to all who visit between now and May...

"Filled with rage and without fear for his own life, the berserker (insert 'Evertonian' here) cast himself into the midst of the battle arousing terror amongst friends and foes alike. The word may also refer to the fact that the fighters had a bear's strength and wildness. They were even known to bite their own shields out of pure rage."

Let bastards have it - both barrels.

Would just looove to be at Goodison a week on Sunday. Anyone can't make it - I'm begging for your ticket...!

Ian Riley
102 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:02:15
Jamie #75,

Chelsea and Man City will get their punishment? When? Man City are 20 points clear and lifted the trophy for the world to see! Chelsea 20 points clear from the drop zone.

Let's hope the European Super League comes soon.

Mick Davies
103 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:02:26
Well, if Man City's 'derby' isn't versus New Mills FC in a couple of years time, then this whole palaver is just aimed at Everton FC (the first club to suffer a ban from the European Cup for something they didn't do, first to suffer retrospective punishment for 'diving', first to suffer as a result of a war 2,000 miles away, and the first to be blamed for a worldwide pandemic).

For fuck's sake, it must be our fault for 2 world wars for winning the Football League in 1915 and 1939!

Brent Stephens
104 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:04:10
John #98,

See #61 for a link to the full report.

Pete Clarke
105 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:04:21
We'll Dumb and Dumber got us into this mess but a clear thinking 777 Partners (if they have real ambitions) should make the best signing we've ever made…

That's to bring in a classy lawyer who will see through all of this bullshit and use Man City, Chelsea etc as our main argument against this charge.

Accepting this decision is the equivalent of the club betraying its loyal supporters.

Kevin Molloy
106 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:05:10
Without the upturn achieved by Dyche, this result sends us to the bottom of the sea. As it is, I've every confidence we can absorb it and stay up.

Sick to my stomach at the people running things. Man City have been doping the whole thing for 10 years with blood money, we've run £6 million over the threshold for three years running and get a 10-point deduction (at a time when every point is precious).

Don't let anyone ever tell you they aren't out to get us. They are.

Dan Nulty
107 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:06:27
We got 10 points and our overspend was less than the fine for the 6 clubs who tried to destroy the Premier League.
Mick Davies
108 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:07:15
Sky Sports News saying Leicester are considering suing Everton — it's the Premier League they should be suing.
John Wilson
109 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:08:05
Rob at 100.

The Premier League didn't need to fine us as they have made us sitting ducks for a multi-million lawsuit.

Everton haven't got a pot to piss in. In equity jurisdiction, can take what we have if not sue us financially. Take Keane.

Jamie Crowley
110 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:08:32
Kim and a ton of others,

One thing I've learned over my 16, near 17 years of ‘Merican adopted fandom about Scousers: fuckers will circle the wagons like no other group of people I've ever encountered.

The remainder of this season will see rabid fans fighting for their beloved Club's survival.

Of that I have no doubt.

We are embarking on a beautiful season honestly. The level of passion and cornered-animal-will-to-survive will be off the charts. It will be glorious in its own way.

Backs to the wall? Looking down the abyss?

Scouser says, “Hold my beer, cunt.”

Brent Stephens
111 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:09:43
Regarding the maximum possible points sanction, I might have missed something but I'm reading the Commission's report as saying they rejected the Premier League's argument that the starting point in any case should be 12 points penalty, with reductions to reflect mitigating factors.

But the Commission's report at paras 84-90 seem to say they rejected this Premier League steer and will impose whatever sanctions as they see fit.

Am I missing something?

Danny O’Neill
112 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:10:14
Come out fighting.

Off the pitch by the club and those unrivalled supporters.

On the pitch by the players.

Ram it right down their throats.

Spirit. Forever. You'll never take my Everton away.

Kim Vivian
113 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:13:37
Regarding "compensation", surely Leicester would be the only club to have a claim as had we been relegated last season only one club would have survived and that would have been Leicester.

Same goes for the previous season if it applies, but I can't recall the clubs (allegedly) affected.

Mick Davies
114 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:14:07
The reason why Man City will not be sanctioned by any governing body:

Saudi oil giant Aramco 'set to be Fifa £84M-a-year sponsor' as fans say 'football is finished'

John Atkins
115 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:15:02
I couldn't agree more, Jamie, my phone is illuminating like Blackpool Tower.

The siege mentality and noise both home and away will indeed be off the charts.

This could indeed be one of the most memorable 26-game run-ins the club has ever seen.

Bring it on!

Pete Neilson
116 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:15:32
It was reported in September that Man City's Premier League charges have been discussed by the UK government and its embassy in Abu Dhabi. They also refused to disclose the correspondence as it could risk the UK's relationship with the United Emirates (UAE).

Man City will walk away with, at worst, a very manageable punishment. It's political, they're too important and the Premier League will always cave in to the demands of the government (eg, Newcastle takeover and no subsequent investigation when their real ownership became public knowledge). Don't expect justice.

Kieran Kinsella
117 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:18:46
We should just start a superish league with other big but disenfranchised clubs: Sheff Wed, Sunderland, Derby, Torino, St Etienne, Hamburg, Cologne, Schalke, Steau Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, Spartak Moscow, IFK Gothenburg.
Raymond Fox
118 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:19:44
I've just been reading what comprises the Premier League and the Football League, talk about too many Indians.

Lots of easy money being handed out there for doing very little, I suspect.

Christy Ring
119 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:19:44
The Premier League stinks of hypocrisy, we stood by them when the so-called Top 6 tried a secret deal, which could have destroyed the Premier League, and all they got was a £22M fine between the 6 teams, a total disgrace.

We should fight them all the way. The famous saying from Animal Farm applies to the Premier League: ‘We are all equal but some are more equal than others".

Steve Brown
120 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:21:58
Given we did not receive a transfer embargo, let’s spend money in January to bolster the squad.
Spencer Lynch
121 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:23:16
Whilst the initial reaction from everyone on here is understandable, the deed is done. We're in the bottom 3.

If we ever needed a better incentive, then this points deduction has provided it.

So now we continue our recent “going forward, positive playing style” and climb back up the table.

COYBs — we are with you!


Ed Prytherch
122 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:26:14
And our former board members received golden handshakes. They should go down in infamy.

Will the chairmen of other Premier League clubs continue to ask themselves "What would Everton do?"

It looks like our chairman asked himself "What would Peter Risdale do?"

Kevin Jones
123 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:26:47
Didn't we stand alone with wanting the "The Filthy, Slimy, Sly, Horrible, Thieving Robbing Bastard Six" banned and keelhauled, when they tried to jump into the Super Duper League???

Maybe a bit of retribution from the Premier League flagship masters…

Trevor Bailey
124 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:27:40
Only two ways this is going.

Either the club as a whole rolls their sleeves up and gives everything for every second of all games left and then throws a collective V-sign to the Premier League.

Or they deflate like a balloon and throw the towel in.

We need the real Everton to stand up from here on in.

Jamie Crowley
125 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:31:39
John @ 115,

That's another very important aspect to point out: there are 26 games remaining in the season, and we're only 2 points from safety after a 10-point deduction.

Polishing an elephant turd, this couldn't happen at a better time.

One of Luton Town, Sheffield, Burnley, or Everton will stay up, and we've spotted them 2 points.

If we do what we are capable of on the pitch, we will survive.

James Flynn
126 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:32:36
Here's the report again.
Link
Justin Doone
127 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:33:47
We surely can't be responsible for compensating other teams as we, like them, are governed by the rules set by others.

But we should definitely threaten to sue the Premier League. I believe it's acknowledged that we didn't gain any advantage. So how can they justify a points deduction?

If we lose places and Premier League status, they should need to financially compensate us millions!

Also, if found guilty once, do we now have free reign to spend however much we want in January?

Does double jeopardy cover businesses?

Paul Greenly Jones
128 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:39:46
Bournemouth in 16th place 5 points better off than us after our 10-point deduction!

All the teams below 16th around us have massively inferior goal differences!

Trying to be positive here, fuck em all we are Everton we can and will survive NSNO

Jeff Armstrong
129 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:40:17
Wow, Bill, that's some legacy you left us with, we should name a stand after you…

Or maybe one of the toilet blocks on the South Stand concourse which every fan could visit at some point and pay their respects.

Jamie Crowley
130 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:41:55
Jeff -

If they, after this, name a stand after Bill, it should be burned down.

Paul Hewitt
131 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:43:04
Just seen a top sports lawyer saying he thinks the punishment is too harsh. And that he expects it to be reduced or even suspended on appeal.
Brent Stephens
132 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:46:08
Interesting that the Commission reject every single mitigation claimed by Everton in paras 112-132: post-planning permission interest; positive trend in finances; Player X (Sigurdsson? not pursuing a claim against him); Ukraine (Russian invasion and loss of naming rights income); covid; transparency and cooperation with Premier League.

And note some aggravating factors: overspend despite warnings; misleading statement about stadium interest.

Barry Hesketh
133 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:46:55
Those saying we should go on a frenzied spending spree in January, a great idea, except for the fact, that we haven't got a proverbial pot to relieve ourselves in!

Will the likes of Onana, Pickford, Dominic et al, want to remain here should we still be in the relegation mire come the next window?

Will the club have to sell those players at knock-down prices due to our financial predicament?

This points deduction is far more reaching than the actual amount of points we can accrue, it's tantamount to destroying a long-established football club. We probably got the points deduction because any significant fine would likely have pushed us into administration, which could still be a possibility, so we get punished twice over.

Where is the Owner and why hasn't he spoken about this dire situation?

Steve Dowdeswell
134 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:47:39
Well, at least we are only 2 points away from Luton and very doable to safety and staying up with a big "Fuck You" to the Premier League and all those in the press who have been trying to hound us into the Championship.

Siege mentality at home and away and let's revert to the Dogs of War campaign tactics.

Man City, Chelsea and the rest must be quaking in their boots after seeing this exceptionally harsh punishment for quite frankly a pittance over the allowed P&S limits.

Fuck everyone else COYB!!!

Andy Duff
135 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:49:47
I'll tell you what we'll happen here. We'll appeal, they'll say take 6 points instead — everyone will be happy and relieved the club will accept it and we all get a ridiculous punishment but, all of a sudden, no noise and everyone will be happy.

Even if this appeal reduces the punishment, this should never be forgotten.

Danny O’Neill
136 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:50:01
Win our games. That's all we can do.

I can guarantee the Manchester United will not be fancying Goodison next week.

By Christmas, we'll be back out of the relegation zone with the appeal still to happen.

All we can do is focus on the football and results.

Andrew Clare
137 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:50:14
This is what happens when a Russian oligarch uses his accountant to front a football club who has no knowledge of how to run a football club. Dodgy transfer dealings and crazy wages offered to mediocre players on ridiculously long contracts.

And who pays the price? We do. The fans who have followed the club through thick and thin. Screwed over just like the population are by corrupt politicians.

We can get through this. Dyche is doing a great job and the team are playing well.

Logic would suggest Man City and Chelsea will be next but then there is nothing logical about the Premier League governance.

Chris James
138 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:50:56
I've read the full commission report this afternoon (linked from here: https://www.premierleague.com/news/3788486) - interesting stuff.

Whilst Everton do appear to have been terribly run, it does show the club were in open discussions for some time with the Premier League and ultimately what's happened is that some factors Everton clearly considered mitigating (and thought Premier League were or would accept, presumably under advice or indication) have been thrown out:

i) Early stadium costs (typically these are capitalised and as such outside PSR). The first c.£30-40M of stadium work pre formal planning permission (which it appears other clubs have historically got away with) has been discounted by the Premier League.

ii) Sigurdsson (Player X) – a player Everton bought for £50M and paid a ton of wages, was suddenly removed as an asset due to criminal charges (which were subsequently not upheld). Everton have put a value on this, suing the player at £10M – again this has been discounted. Not sure if there's any legitimacy to our claim here, but it's a pretty unique case.

iii) USM sponsorship and naming rights (at least £10M a season) was effectively removed unexpectedly from Everton's income due to the Russia - Ukraine conflict. This surely is a mitigating fact.

iv) Player trading assets were not as expected (partly due to Covid - maybe), but I think it's also partly due to PSR itself. When other clubs know we have to sell = suppressed prices.

v) Lower than expect performance and merit income (they projected Top 8, finished much lower) – not really much of a case here tbh.

There's a few other bits in there too, but the main argument is Everton think the P&S calculation was closer to £88M, the Premier League actually increased it from £120M to £124.5M, hence a £19.5M deficit vs the £105M 'allowed' loss.

I do think some of Everton's points hold water (or are at least credible mitigations), but I also think there's some fundamental flaws with the commission's approach.

The formula they've applied (which didn't actually exist in a any formal way before) is 6 points for a breach and 1 point for every £5M excess, hence the 10 points.

This is based on the same model used in a sanction by the EFL but is highly dubious because a) it was never previously agreed or stated in any Premier League rules or documentation (so it's 'precedent' not law) and b) this sort of suggests the economics of the Premier League are directly comparable with the Championship (which is patently not the case).

Because of the above, I think there's a decent possibility this could get appealed down to a 6-8 point deduction on appeal. Still harsh, but it will maybe satisfy both sides.

The bigger problem here for Everton (and the whole PSR issue really) is that the case opens up a series of other cases with relegated clubs... which are financial in nature and in themselves lay a Premier League club (us) open to further financial risk.

If the 3 relegated clubs last year manage to get £50M each say (unlikely but who knows), that's £150M the club has to find. Also, how the hell does that count towards future PSR calculations?

John Eccleston
139 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:51:27
"We have no doubt that the circumstances of this case are such that only a sporting sanction in the form of a points deduction would be appropriate. A financial penalty for a club that enjoys the support of a wealthy owner is not a sufficient penalty."

Obviously not a view shared by Premier League when dealing with Super 6 League breakers?

Tony Everan
140 Posted 17/11/2023 at 2023/11/17 : 15:51:28
Is the biggest sanction in Premier League history, a 10-point deduction, disproportionate?  

Not like for like, but here's what Man Utd got from Uefa for their breach of FFP rules, citing Covid as a reason for their transgression.

UEFA has fined Manchester United €300,000 (£256,785) for breaching Financial Fair Play rules over a four-year period between 2019 and 2022. Erik ten Hag has been handed a smaller summer transfer budget to work with despite the club publishing financial results last month, with revenue up by 11 per cent. Man United blame historic issues and previous FFP rules for the fine.


“While disappointed by the outcome, Manchester United accepts this fine for what Uefa acknowledges to be a minor technical breach of its previous financial fair play rules," the statement read
“This reflected a change in the way that Uefa adjusted for Covid-19 losses during the 2022 reporting period, which allowed us to recognise only €15m of the €281m of revenues lost due to the pandemic within the FFP calculation.
“Post-pandemic, the club's revenues have recovered strongly and are forecast to reach a record level in the current financial year. The club continues to support the enforcement of rules to promote financial fair play and sustainability across domestic and European football.”
United's stance is that they were penalised because of unforeseen changes in how UEFA treat the losses and were unable to adjust for €47m of Covid losses during the 2022 monitoring period. 




Dale Self
141 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:52:13
Without comment on the fairness of it, let's resist kicking the dead man. He's gone and it isn't a good look.

I think some of you thought I was joking about the Premier League seeking further penalties for the Xavier the loving mascot incident. I was but now I'm wondering about it.

Jeff Armstrong
142 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:53:23
The commission took into account Moshiri's mitigation that “we had no midfield” — we should sue the commission for allowing evidence to be used by a footballing imbecile who knows less about the game of football than he knows about accountancy… just.
Pete Gunby
143 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:54:15
Moshiri and Kenwright brought all of this upon us and the Premier League will gladly try to make an example of us.

Fuck the Premier League, the Sky sweethearts, Liverpool, Man Utd and fuck our incompetent lying owners. We'll stand and fight alone and will not yield! Rage and defiance is the answer. And fuck Leicester too.

Pete Clarke
144 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:56:14
This is not a football issue but a way for the snobby fuckers who run the Premier League to prove their existence. They have picked on us because we are vulnerable and undesirable.

Let's fight the fuckers off the pitch first because we ain't turning this around on the pitch. We may be in decent form but we're not a good team yet.

They are treating us like scum just like some governments of this rotten country have treated the people of Liverpool similarly for centuries.

The team can do their part which is hard enough but these people who own us should threaten to name and shame all clubs and officials involved if it's not handled fairly.
Paul Hewitt
145 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:57:29
Let's get one thing straight.

No relegated club can sue us. They can only sue the Premier League. And I hope they do.

John Daley
146 Posted 17/11/2023 at 15:59:18
Honestly, which dickhead at the club projected a 6th place finish in 2022?
Ian Linn
147 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:04:18
Utter horseshit.
Jeff Armstrong
148 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:04:22
For me Chris at 138 has nailed it…

“The formula they've applied (which didn't actually exist in a any formal way before) is 6 points for a breach and 1 point for every £5M excess, hence the 10 points

This is based on the same model used in a sanction by the EFL but is highly dubious because a) it was never previously agreed or stated in any Premier League rules or documentation (so it's 'precedent' not law) and b) this sort of suggests the economics of the Premier League are directly comparable with the Championship (which is patently not the case).”

They've made the punishment up as they went along, they actually had no guidelines for punishment, so they used an existing one from somewhere else.

Barry Hesketh
149 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:06:32
John @146

The printer was short of ink – we couldn't afford a new cartridge – and it read 6th when it meant to read 16th. That's what I'd have said anyway.

I'm dumbfounded by the intrusive nature of the commission's remit, this list of players for sale, amended list of players for sale, means we mislead the Premier League.

Can we all see similar from other Premier League clubs. I thought football clubs were private businesses? Would the tax-man have access to every commercial detail?

Jeff Armstrong
150 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:08:00
John 146, ….definitely Moshiri.
Niall McIlhone
151 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:08:16
My hope and expectation is that our manager and players will be initially as dumbstruck as the fans, but that they will rally to the cause. We now have a single, clear objective of staying up, and – with the ramped-up support of our fans – we might just do it, you know?

Now that would be the (English football) story of the season and a fine way to put two fingers up to the corrupt Premier League?

I envisage the noise around Everton to be such that some of our opponents won't know what's hit them: I feel we have exacyly the right man in the job to galvanize the team, and we must do our job of supporting the manager and players as best we can to get through this crisis – before the game, during the game, after the game and across all social and broadcast media.

Toffee TV reporting that just short of £8k already crowdfunded to fund protest banners. It's getting interesting already.

Derek Cowell
152 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:09:32
My fear now is that if we are successfully sued by other clubs we may be bankrupt and forced into administration. They of course won't get their money quickly then.

If Man City ever get done, the Premier League will probably give the RS about 5 extra titles!

Joe Digney
153 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:12:06
Imagine how good it’s gonna feel when we stay up this season. Stick it to every corrupt fucker that’s tried to take us down at every turn.
We stick together. UTFT.
Brent Stephens
154 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:14:02
Jeff #142,

"The commission took into account Moshiri's mitigation that '“we had no midfield”'.

Yes, a bizarre statement from Moshiri!

Si Cooper
155 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:15:03
I think you have to factor in some measure of sympathy for a club that needed to get good money for outgoing players just when a pandemic had slashed the bank balances of potential buyers. Was any deflation of transfer prices for average players during 2020 - 2022 factored in to our problems balancing the books?

As there are many things that need to be equal for justice to be fairly applied, the biggest issue has to be Man City continuing to stave off judgement never mind punishment, for much larger transgressions. That impasse shouldn't be allowed to continue but, whilst it is, all other cases should be held in abeyance as well.

So sick of seeing us hit with harsh “sending a message” punishments only to see others get a much watered-down version.

Any media outlet that hasn't worked out we could only affect the fate of one other club that was relegated per year shouldn't be allowed to broadcast on the subject as they are spreading ‘fake' news.

Chris Jones (Burton on Trent)
156 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:15:04
I remember how well Leeds Utd played when criminal assault charges were being pursued against Lee Bowyer and Jonathon Woodgate et al over a city centre fracas c. 20 years ago. They adopted a siege mentality and their form only dipped well after the dust settled.

I believe we'll be okay as I can't see the likes of our manager and senior players being defeatist. All we have to do is continue as we are and we'll come through this. And if the report says we gained no sporting advantage, the clubs trying to sue us won't get far either.

UTFT

Mick Davies
157 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:17:25
Paul @ 145 spot on: how can Leicester sue us?

We didn't make the rules, and we couldn't have deducted 10 points from ourselves last season.

It's the corrupt Premier League they should be suing; and we should be doing all we legally can to help Ipswich and Southampton to gain promotion, just to rub it into the 'Slimy Foxes' and Leeds.

Dave Lynch
158 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:17:44
The report states that no "sporting advantage" was gained, so other clubs have no recourse to come after us.
Iakovos Iasonidis
159 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:20:03
We violated one profitability and sustainability rule. Man City have done it 115 times.

1994-95 we started with 8 losses and 4 draws, we had our first win after 13 games! That year we survived and we won the cup!

We can do it again. Goodison must become hell from now on, we can really do it!

Neil Lawson
160 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:20:28
The clamour from the Premier League was for a 12-point deduction even before a finding had been made. 10 points appears to be entirely arbitrary.

As a retired veteran of many court battles, I can not help but conclude that those making the decision decided they couldn't give 12 as it would be all too obvious and cosy. Rather, knock a couple of points off so they can claim to have taken an independent and unbiased view.

It all stinks. Hopefully the appeals process will proceed quickly.

Dave Abrahams
161 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:24:51
In dealing with a previous case against Birmingham City it stated at the end of the case that, although Birmingham had lost the case, it had no legal bindings, what does that mean?

Another part of the case was that Everton had submitted a list of players who the club were willing or trying to sell, when the list was re submitted one player was missing off the list, Player Y.

When asked to explain this, the club replied that the club were still willing or trying to sell the player but Chairman Bill Kenwright had taken over the job of trying to sell this player. It never explained why this was the case, seems strange to me.

Mike Gaynes
162 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:28:26
My sober intellectual analysis is:

Fuck them.

We'll stay up anyway and shove it up their asses in our new stadium.

Kevin Edward
163 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:30:03
I'm really surprised that they decided to open this can of worms. The bad smell of the Premier League is out in the open now. Time to make a stand.

We all know the competition is bent, and rotten. So let's get some banners out there asking:

Why so long to investigate Man City?
Why only fines dished out to the Shite 6 who resigned from the competition?
Why is VAR being used to preserve the status quo at the top?

Anything else we don't like… We're not going down without a fight, are we?
UTFT !

Barry Hesketh
164 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:30:11
Love it, Mike @ 162
Derek Cowell
165 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:32:41
This decision has also, by default, handed us an additional financial penalty, that being the loss of placement revenue for finishing in a higher league position. This in itself could be many millions in a tight mid table.
Danny O’Neill
166 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:34:14
We will stay up regardless.

And with the appeal, the points reduction will be reduced.

We win games and ram it right in their face.

I think the song about the Tories sung at the away matches may well get adapted to accommodate the Premier League.

Over £5000 raised for banners for the Manchester United match.

Fight blues. There's only one winner here and we've got a Quarter Final next month.

Christopher Timmins
167 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:34:15
It's a blow, it's disproportionate but we shall overcome. We have to adapt a siege mentality, starting now and never ending.

We will survive!!!!

James Hughes
168 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:34:22
I just love the way Everton and the Premier League can fuck up my weekend without even playing.

We have been stitched up by those feckers.

Please answer why the Mancs can be £1billion in debt but it does not show in P&L?

Dave Cashen
169 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:36:24
Mike,

You've Just penned the new blue army song:

"You can stick your ten points.
Stick your ten points.
Stick your ten points up your arse"

Brent Stephens
170 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:38:15
Interesting that the English Football League have a maximum penalty of 12 points in the P&S regime, possibly reduced for mitigating factors. But the English Premier League guidelines refer to a fixed starting point of 6 points penalty with additional one point penalty for every £5m exceeding the PSR threshold - so theoretically no limit. Is that to make scope for hitting the likes of Man City?
Mick Davies
171 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:38:34
We're on the same goal difference as Man Utd in 6th!!!! Only 2 points from safety, and as long as this doesn't cause a catastrophic collapse from our team, I'm sure we'll be safe.

The talismanic Coleman returning will do a lot to save us from the threat of the drop, and if Leicester are promoted, I hope they get the most hostile Everton reception since the Leeds sides in the 70s next season.

John Atkins
172 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:41:10
How can we donate? Please can someone send the link.
Ted Roberts
173 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:44:41
The club has now become the benchmark for all future misdemeanours.

What a president the dickhead's have gone and set, ie, 1 misdemeanour = immediate 10 points deduction… 115 misdemeanours = ??????? diplomatic immunity.

Ah well, it could have been worse… couldn't it??

Jeff Armstrong
174 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:45:15
Neil #160, yes the 12-point penalty was leaked to a journalist 2 weeks ago, just after the commission finished, but before any findings had been published.

Who is investigating this leak, the Premier League? Don't think so as they leaked it!

Corrupt to the core and brazen with it, they are untouchable, because they make the rules, and they take the backhanders.

Christopher Timmins
175 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:46:37
Just one other point, a sanction of any kind must result in the departure of all those who were involved in the running of the club when the issue(s) giving rise to today's sanction arose.

The worst-run club in the country.

We will prevail, of that I am sure!

Sam Hoare
176 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:48:52
Outrageous. I didn't put any value in the leaked report about the 12-point deduction but sadly it looks as though I was mistaken (though it may have been a lucky guess).

Thank God we have Dyche at the helm and as such a decent chance of taking the hit and still avoiding the drop.

Siege mentality will prevail and just imagine how sweet it would be if we survived and maybe even won a cup despite this travesty.

John Keating
177 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:52:26
Quite rightly, every Blue will want to vent. Comments will go from one end of the spectrum to the other and a million in-between.

In a day or two, when everyone connected to Everton and those outside observers from other clubs and the media have had their say, the club and supporters should together take a breath.

The club, supporters and players should be as one collective.

Let the club look after appeals and other stuff which will be totally ignored by the Premier League.

The collective should approach every game, home and away, as an attack as would be on our family. We should treat every fuckwit home and away with hatred, bile, scorn — whatever, you name it.

Whether it be a team, a ground, an opposition supporter, an official, anyone and everyone as an enemy.

Excuse the language but everything and everyone who is not Blue should be fucked right off!

Charles Brewer
178 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:52:43
Stupid Everton, they should have murdered a bunch of Italians and their own supporters and then tried to wreck the Premier League while repeatedly releasing intimidatory threats at officials. You only get a very small fine for that kind of thing.

It's obviously far worse to breach some entirely arbitrary financial limit during a time of unprecedented turmoil and financial upheaval and to have a marginally different method for valuation of assets.

Especially when it is perfectly obvious that the rules have been set up to protect those clubs with regular access to additional income (the shitty Champions League) from ever having to compete with teams whose owners decide to spend money on the teams.

Eddie Dunn
179 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:54:15
As others have pointed out, Leeds, Leicester and Burnley can only sue the Premier League, not ourselves. We stayed up, so only one of them (Leicester City) lost their place due to us not being deducted points last season.

The Premier League may be looking to stave off government regulators but, if anything, the arbitrary way this has been decided actually makes it more likely that the government would see a need for proper investigation into the cesspool.

Finally, the club, under Bill's stewardship, saw Moshiri (and Usmanov) as our saviours. We fans were equally delighted at our new-found sugar daddy, and we proceeded to waste money on dross left, right and centre.

Indeed, despite not being anywhere near the real big spenders over a decade, we attracted scrutiny, spending money in a short space of time. The Russian war and Covid played their part but, let's face it, we were an easy target for the media.

Of course the punishment seems harsh and the KCs on the commission are not "football" people. One of the committee has experience of football finance. With no precedent, it might be arguable to change the punishment.

Some of the details that pushed us into trouble like Sigurdsson's pay and the unnamed contract for Player Y are particularly arbitrary.

Personally, I have been fed-up with the Premier League for years and I think most neutral fans see the clear scapegoating being done here.

They picked on us at a time when we were at our most vulnerable. They leaked the possible deduction on the day our Chairman died.

Someone high up sees us as a threat to the cozy gravy train.
We have to react, and put two fingers up to these bullies.

Barry Hesketh
180 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:54:31
John @172

I hope this link works for you.

The 1878s - Atmosphere fund

Paul Hughes
181 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:55:58
Okay, now we know where we stand both in terms of what the Premier League think of Everton FC, its historical standing as a founder member and any extenuating circumstances we faced. What goes round comes around and we'll provide the same support the Premier League showed us. Nil.

We also know where we stand in terms of what we need to do to continue as a Premier League team:

1. Get behind Sean Dyche, properly get behind him, his staff and the team. Whatever team he selects, we must show our unequivocal support.

2. Make noise, plenty of it and let every non-Evertonian know that we intend to scrap for every point, and how.

We cannot show weakness, we must hold our heads high. If they're not a Blue, then they are against us. The Dogs of War mentality must prevail. This can be our finest hour.

Andrew Brookfield
182 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:56:31
Ed @17

Horrible comment which lacks any class.

Paul Roderick
183 Posted 17/11/2023 at 16:58:43
How many points will be reinstated by appeal if we miraculously find ourselves within reach of Europe?
Pretty sure it will be just enough to not qualify.
Terry Farrell
184 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:01:45
I am absolutely raging and the holier than thous on here can do one.

The system is flawed anyway. The top 4 get most Premier League money most sponsorship Champions League money and most TV rights money so they can all spend more without breaching the P&S rules.

To break the status quo, you need to spend more than you are allowed. Is there anyone with a brain who doesn't understand this? If Farhad wants to spend this money, why cant he? Man City and Chelsea only broke through by doing this.

The Premier League can fuck off massive. Love Everton 💙 even more if that's possible and Dyche is the man to handle this.

Nick Page
185 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:03:34
I mean, who didn't see this coming?

I absolutely despise these Premier League southern Tory kopites with every fibre of my being and I hope the lot of them burn in hell, the greedy fucking corrupt twats. They've been after us for years, tell me otherwise.

And all the while they bend over backwards for their chosen few, who almost left a few years ago and didn't pay one single fine, face any points deduction, nothing. Why? Because these cunts are only interested in their product and their brand and that's it, and those clubs can do what they like.

Fuck you, Premier League. Fuck you!

Charles Brewer
186 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:05:00
Paul @181, I'm confident that your sentiments will be mightily in evidence with the crowd. Just as long as the team responds in the same way (it may turn out that Dyche was exactly the right man, I certainly hope so).

Actually, I'm probably unusual in that I don't want to see anything done against Man City or Chelsea, I want to see football results achieved on the pitch, not in some shitty in camera hearing of a bunch of shyster lawyers whose main objective (as with the Covid "enquiry") is to maximize fees through stringing the matter out as long as possible.

Brent Stephens
187 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:06:53
Well, Goodison will be one cauldron from now on. I'll be looking forward to our next game like I've looked forward to no other.

And I wish we could get rid of the wind-up merchant on the Live Forum – a big test for him (it) next game.

Julie Naybour
188 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:06:56
The club have unquestionably taken us too close to the edge and spent badly… but when they say there are mitigating unforseeable circumstances, they are right:

1. Covid.

2. War in Ukraine – meaning we lost money from Usmanov naming rights.

3 Change halfway through season in what is tax-deductible, ie, Previous to change, the interest from loans wasn't relevant.

4. Soaring interest rates.

5. According to reports, we've consulted continously with Premier League.

So why have the Premier League changed their stance?? Trying to flex muscles…

We need to stick together and support the club, not stick the knife in a dead man.

And as many have already said, we shall overcome -– we hope!

Graham Mockford
189 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:07:59
It appears we took a gamble, aware of the dangers and have come a cropper. I don't think you can really complain that we have been found guilty of breaking the rules.

We can, of course, and what should be our focus, appeal the actual sanction which seems on the face of it disproportionate.

Also, the sense of injustice should galvanise the team and the fans to make sure relegation is avoided.

I agree with Big Nev, suck it up and control our own destiny.
Self-pity won't help us but some channeled anger definitely will.

John Atkins
190 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:10:10
Thanks, Barry, I just donated.

Let's stick this right those corrupt fuckers.

Can't wait for the banners!

Mike Owen
191 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:14:39
Like some others on here, I recommend reading the ruling in full, all 40 pages. It is heavy going, but interesting, to put it politely. Make yourself a cuppa first.

Colin, 59, yes, I also took note of pars 101 to 104. Likewise, 137 to 138.

Misjudgments were made. The club admitted a breach. So, yes, a punishment. But 10 points? I was expecting an explanation of the reasoning for that.

After all, it does say: Click here to read the independent Commission's FULL written reasons (my CAPS). But, no, just drops it like a massive fartbomb.

Curious to note in par 88 a passing reference to "a regulator". Who was that directed at?

Anyway, our next game is against a club with three times our annual revenue. Financial fair play, anyone?

Tony Harrison
192 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:14:52
This is a disgrace. The Premier League are killing the Golden Goose with allowing stupid changes to the laws, the disgrace that is poor referee quality, poor VAR decisions, now this ridiculous and disproportionate decision. Sack the lot of them and asap.

Also, why do the whingers, eg, Leeds etc, complain? They went down because they were not good enough. At the time, Everton were not guilty of anything.

Barry Hesketh
193 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:15:31
The link below annoyed and amused me in equal measure but one reply made me laugh out loud. 'Tough to swallow that all those storied Everton mid-table finishes were built on a foundation of lies and fraud.'

Everton Hit With 10-Point Deduction For Being A Bunch Of Jagoffs

Dan Parker
194 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:17:45
Fuming.

We'll probably appeal and get upgraded to 20 points knowing our luck.

Anthony Dove
195 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:18:05
It's all Sigurdsson's fault apparently.

No mitigating circumstances were accepted so maybe the 10 points was not that unreasonable.

Jay Harris
196 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:19:39
It is being reported that Leeds and Burnley put undue pressure on the Premier League to have an independent investigation of Everton so those are the two clubs we should be aiming our ire at besides broadcasting to the world how corrupt the Premier League is.

How they can disallow £30M on stadium spending because it was before Planning Permission is ridiculous – never mind some of the other items that make up the loss.

John Raftery
197 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:22:46
I admit I did not see this coming. The club has seven days to submit an appeal. I imagine it will be heard within weeks not months.

Whatever the ultimate outcome, this case has opened up a can of worms for the sporting integrity of the Premier League as a whole. A new money spinner would be live TV coverage of commission hearings because there will be plenty of them in the future.

Lawyers and accountants must be rubbing their hands with glee.

John Pickles
198 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:22:55
Well, we only have to make up one place in the table, I can't see Man City coming back from -400pts.
Paul Hewitt
199 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:23:45
Graham @189.

I'm quite happy to take the punishment as long as other punishments to other clubs are relevant to their charges. I very much doubt they will.

Clive Rogers
200 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:23:55
This is really a 10-point penalty for the mismanagement of the club by Kenwright and Moshiri. Kenwright said himself that he hadn't a clue about business and Moshiri just left him to it.

I'm not sure Moshiri is strictly a businessman it the strictest sense of the word as he seems more of an Usmanov side shoot.

Lee Paige
201 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:25:28
Something has to be done by the club to address some of the narrative being pushed out by certain media outlets. As pointed by the Premier League, this was not about the club gaining an unfair advantage on the pitch, which effectively destroys their case for suing us.

Also, the club needs to voice its opinion more and provide the fans with further information on what it provided to the Premier League during the time in question. Publish any communications that paint the Premier League in a bad light.

Also question the ongoing investigations into other clubs. We need to stop being nice.

Tony Waring
202 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:26:37
Bloody disgraceful especially when you think about Man City and Chelsea.

However, at least we have time to do something about it with 28 games still to play and we are now in a much improved situation – footballwise – than we were at any time last season.

As Paul states (199) it's acceptable providing appropriate sanctions are handed out to other guilty outfits.

Lee Paige
203 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:29:17
Match officials are going to face sheer hell at Goodison now.
John Schrempft
204 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:29:42
So, after 60 years of supporting Everton, it's come to this.

Okay, the finances were not what they should have been but why oh why punish the players? They've battled hard enough this season to reach 14 points.

A fine would have been fairer. Unbelievable.

Neil Carter
205 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:30:59
Stinks of corruption.

We should form a breakaway league – you only get fined £5M for that.

Man City will buy their way out of 115 offences – the Premier League has a price.

Barry Hesketh
206 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:31:58
Tony @202,

There are only 26 games remaining. If we win 20 we could be in the Champions League. :)

Dan Parker
207 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:32:18
There's no way absolutely no way the Premier League will credit us points back. They'll take more off on appeal if anything.
Nick White
208 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:32:57
So Man City will be heading for the 11th tier Manchester League then assuming only maybe 50% of their charges are proven. They should have stuck to the original idea and screwed over everyone and just headed for the Super League.

Maybe that's back on… They must be bricking it right now!

Stuff em all… I think we will stay up. COYB

Brent Stephens
209 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:33:48
Mike #191 "Curious to note in par 88 a passing reference to "a regulator". Who was that directed at?"

Mike, I think that's a reference to the government's proposed regulator they want to set up for the financial etc side of football, and the report is an attempt by the Premier League to retain control (or at least start to have control!) over such matters, rather than lose control to the government.

Si Cooper
210 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:34:14
Neil (160), it was 12 points to be chipped away by any mitigation so the 10 makes it look like the ‘independent' commission are being reasonable even if it's all been agreed before the independent commission stepped in (and presumably got paid a lot of money). Gave them a threat of the extra 2 if we appeal.

Don't expect the appeal to be successful.

Just had Matt Slater from The Athletic on the radio and he was asked about the Man City and Chelsea situation. He said nothing about Chelsea and seemed to find it reasonable that the obviously guilty Man City can apparently avoid punishment indefinitely just because their transgressions are so complicated. How can any justice be served on others whilst they continue to accrue prestige through their ill-gotten competitive advantages?

They are all saying we will be alright anyway, ignoring the fact we have a wafer-thin squad at present and could easily get derailed as the season progresses.

Mick Davies
211 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:34:44
Tell them they can't use the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock for their shitty Euro money scam – let them all go to Anfield, with the gloomy, grey terrace streets, and not gloat on the beautiful new stadium on the iconic Mersey skyline.
Jeff Armstrong
212 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:35:05
For all those saying Burnley, Leeds etc cant possibly sue us as it's a Premier League issue, blah blah blah.

Are you the same people who said "We can't possibly get a points deduction. It will be a fine or a suspended points deduction, or both”? You obviously know more than the rest of us … not,

Stop the wishful thinking and wait for the actual outcome of any future proceedings.

James Flynn
213 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:35:54
Player X must be Sigurdsson.

Kieran (92) - Agree.

At the time, "Everton stated that they 'suspended a first-team player pending a police investigation', but did not confirm if it was the same player arrested by GMP."

In today's report, "In July 2021 Player X was arrested. The FA suspended Player X from all football activity, making it impossible for him to perform his contractual duties. On 23 August 2021 Everton dismissed Player X. Everton sought advice on the possibility of suing Player X for breach of contract but elected not to do so."

Player Y, though? Is that Calvert-Lewin? Or Richarlison maybe? Both got new contracts around that time, but not in the Summer of 2020. Maybe that's when the new contract kicked in.

Stu Darlington
214 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:35:55
Anyone who thinks Man City and Chelsea will be treated with the same set of rules as Everton is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Some excuse will be found where their alleged breaches of the rules were in fact not really breaches at all just a misunderstanding and anyway they have sacked the finance clerk or turnstile operator responsible and promise not to do it again. So everything's all right then!

It's those cheating Everton bastards we needed to make an example of, so job done!

As for the Super League conspirators, well, they were led astray by those dodgy European clubs and didn't really know what they were doing, but a slap on the wrist soon brought them back into the Premier League fold.

When world governments won't challenge Saudi Arabia, what do you reckon the Premier League will do to Man City? The word 'corruption' just doesn't hack it.

As someone once said “We live in interesting times.”

Brent Stephens
215 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:39:05
Si #210,

I think the "12 points to be chipped away..." etc is what happens in the Football League, and the Premier League are adopting a tariff with no maximum. See #170?

Ian Jones
216 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:39:29
Read this on the BBC site:

'On the three previous occasions when a Premier League club has had as few as four points after 12 games, Everton in 1994-95 were the only side to stay up.'

Seems we created another first, just need to do it again!

What's more remarkable is that we won the cup in 95.

Daniel A Johnson
217 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:39:33
Manchester City, the jewel in the crown of the Premier League, will not got touched.

Pep Guardiola, Haaland – all poster boys for the product and Premier League subscriptions. On the Sky billboard near my work, I just see pictures of Man City players – not Everton.

It suits them to have a Premier League team dominating World football. It's good for the product, it's good for business – and, for the Premier League right now, business is good.

As for Everton, we're a big enough footballing relic to make an example of. In the Premier League's eyes, we just help make the numbers up.

Not in our lifetimes will the Sky 6 get called out.

Mike Oates
218 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:41:47
Totally gobsmacked at the disproportionate penalty, just can't understand it … but more worried as it opens up the probable multiple claims against us by a load of clubs. That could be the backbreaker for Everton.

Watch Man City and Chelsea get away with it and watch Newcastle owners get round limitations on what they will be allowed in future sponsorships. Believe there is a multi-million-pound deal next year, way above the norm – a La City with their £400M Eithad deal, x years ago!!!!

Barry Hesketh
219 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:42:25
James @213,

I too thought it might be Richarlison, but having checked ToffeeWeb's archives, he signed his 12-month extension in December 2019, but of course you could be correct in stating it ran from the following summer.

John Keating
220 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:42:25
The anger, frustration, hate, bile, siege mentality and every other feeling we supporters have at present has to be transmitted to, and carried out by the players on the pitch.

If ever players who wear our shirt have to stand up and be countered as one of us, it has to start next weekend.

Players are rolled out every week giving us all the bullshit about how much they love us and the club while they pocket thousands a week and tell us one day they'd like to play for a “top” club.

Well shut the fuck up and translate what we feel onto the pitch. Let's get ourselves out of this shit rather than depend on appeals and all the other crap.

Hate and bile towards everything non-Blue every game.

Tony Everan
221 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:43:19
Struggling to come to terms with this, it's an absolute disgrace.

So they said we couldn't offset anything for interest against the P&S rules because Moshiri lent the money for the stadium for free.

But if we'd have borrowed the same money from a bank we would have been able to offset the interest and we would not have breached the P& S rules.

For fuck's sake, we are building a stadium that will enhance the Premier League and is regenerating a whole area of a city, creating thousands of jobs and a better future for thousands of people. Cut us some slack!

Man City and West Ham got great deals on their stadiums already built for the Commonwealth Games and Olympics. I seem to remember Tottenham having access if required to a zero percent loan from the Bank of England when building theirs.

And they won't even consider letting Everton offset an agreed amount for interest off a stadium that we are struggling to pay for ourselves. Give us a break!

We have been given a completely unfair and disproportionate sanction. Recruit the world's best lawyers like Man City do for the appeal, and fight for it.

Nick White
222 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:44:10
I do remember when all the Oligarchs were getting sanctioned and things looked dodgy for Chelsea there was a massive need to help this poor club because it wasn't their fault and they shouldn't be allowed to fail.

It is one hell of a weird league…

Mick Davies
223 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:44:51
Jeff, stupid post – no one believes the Premier League didn't have the power to deduct points.

But tell us, how can another club sue Everton, when the document actually states: 'No sporting advantage was gained'?

Graham Mockford
224 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:46:17
Paul #199,

I don't think we should take the punishment, it's too harsh.

I just think it's difficult to argue we didn't put ourselves in the position to be found guilty. We budgeted to finish 6th and finished 17th which was a difference of £26.5M.

That was a reckless gamble.

Jeff Armstrong
225 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:47:07
John @220, agreed.

Pity this wasn't released next weekend, a day or so before we played at home against one of their darlings.

No surprise it's been released on an international break weekend. It's up to us to carry the momentum into next Sunday, a win would be a fantastic start to our ‘new' season.

Oliver Molloy
226 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:47:12
Those in charge of our club broke the rules and we the fans as usual suffer the consequences and the anxiety!

Is the 10 points justified – that's the question, any reduction on our punishment will help.

For fuck sake, how did Moshiri become a billionaire? I actually don't believe he is – just a stooge for Usmanov.

Just read this simplified explanation on our trouble and it looks like Moshiri gambled and it all went pear-shaped.

“The cause of Everton's difficulties was the fact that it overspent (largely on its purchase of new players and its inability to sell other players), and because it finished lower in the league than it had projected … causing a loss of expected income of £21 million ($26 million),” the commission said.

“The reality,” the commission added, “is that Everton failed to manage its finances so as to operate within the generous threshold” of $130 million.

Richarlison back on loan in January and definitely no player sales no matter what the fucking money is offered for the likes of Branthwaite no way should this owner be allowed to cash in.

Dele Alli to become a legend?

Billy Shears
227 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:48:29
Who are on the Premier League board? Fucking kopites! Fuck 'em!

If we keep going as we are, then it won't fucking matter anyroad apart from league placings and the dosh it brings clubs...

Let's bag that League Cup – that would bring European footy at least!

I wonder if Citeh will get a similar fine!? 😂

Jeff Armstrong
228 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:49:57
Mick, 223, Don’t call me stupid, not today.
Barry Hesketh
229 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:51:46
When you read the report about what a government led independent regulator might do, is it really a change that the Premier League should be worried about?

If a Government led independent regulator felt club X, who was owned by a friendly nation-state, should be treated more favourably than a club whose owners were seen as unfriendly, for exactly the same transgressions, the Premier League would be compromised to carry out such recommendations?

It looks like this may have already happened in Everton's case, unfriendly ownership albeit once removed and boom, we lose 10 points, do not pass Go, etc.

English football clubs will not face sporting sanctions from independent regulator, government says

Mick Davies
230 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:52:05
Jeff, well don't vent your anger on us Evertonians.
Mark Taylor
231 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:53:45
I've just spent (wasted) 2 hours of my life reading the full report.

My instinct tells me: bad idea to appeal. It's not quite, perhaps, as some of us thought. We are actually not that far away from the £105m, even using the Premier League's and Commission's version.

But what came out is that this is not some sort of target to aim for as a minimum, which we seemed to be doing, but an absolute ceiling to give you lots of scope, in the event of disputes. A breach technically happens at £15M. Go over the ceiling of £105M, which is supposed to give you masses of leeway, and you are in big trouble.

What comes across in terms of our approach is ineptitude (how we handled the stadium financing early stages and the interest on loans) and frankly wishful thinking. The point about Sigurdsson was not about wages, he was apparently dismissed a month after he was arrested. It was because we didn't sue him for £10M for lost transfer value.

We claimed we wanted to sell 'Player Y' in 2020 but couldn't because of Covid. Appears to be either Calvert-Lewin or Keane. Kenwright was supposedly handling it. The commission brushed these off as the vagaries and risks of running a football club.

We ended up in agreeing we were over but these and other examples were given as mitigation. And given short shrift. As was our co-operation. This was actually framed as us acting in self-interest and supplying incorrect and misleading info. It appears we did this. The only mitigating factor, a small one, is that our losses were trending in the right direction.

I think we should move on. Brief the lawyers to prepare for being sued by the relegated clubs. Actually, what reading the findings led me to think is why bother with these rules in the first place? It is just pulling up the drawbridge.

If Moshiri was not an utter incompetent, along with our Chairman and CEO, this sort of investment might just have got us back into the big time. And what is wrong with doing that?

Kevin Edward
232 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:53:49
Some great comments here. Angry, yes, but we are as one.
Perhaps it's best to have it all resolved now, and take it on the chin?

We need a banner with one massive ‘arse' in the middle of it flying proudly across the main stand to show what we think.

And then take it around the country on away days.

UTFT!

James Marshall
233 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:55:48
I've written several posts on this and then deleted them as I can't seem to work out exactly how I feel about the whole thing. Shocked when I read the news this afternoon, then the T key fell off my laptop so it's been a trying afternoon, or should I say, a 'rying afernoon' all round.

Part of me now thinks, fuck it, we're still better than all the teams in the bottom half and we're only 2 points behind Luton with a far superior goal difference so the Premier League can go fuck themselves and we'll stay up despite them.

Shit like this will only galvanise us like a Phil Neville tackle.

I can't wait till the Man Utd game now.

Kenny Smith
234 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:55:49
Didn't the Premier League themselves say that Moshiri was fit and proper to own a football club?

Thought so…… !

Christy Ring
235 Posted 17/11/2023 at 17:56:58
So they didn't take into account the massive interest rates for the new stadium, and after the war in Ukraine, we lost 15 commercial deals and the Usmanov naming rights, which would have more than wrote off the £19.5M we overspent.

Total hypocrisy.

Nick Riddle
236 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:00:54
I've just spent a dispiriting 90 minutes reading the judgement. I'm no lawyer but, based on what I've read, I find it very hard to see how Everton can successfully appeal.

The very best they might hope for is a reduced points penalty if they can successfully emphasise mitigating circumstances. However, they've already tried that without success and the Commission was more convinced by the Premier League suggesting there were aggravating circumstances.

For example, they agreed with the Premier League that the club didn't act in good faith over the treatment of interest that could have been incurred had commercial loans, rather than Moshiri's interest-free loans, been taken out for costs incurred before planning permission for the new stadium was granted. A tortuous point, but it sort of makes sense if you read the judgement.

Two interesting issues that I wasn't aware of, and apologies if these are covered in the comments above;

Player X (Gylfi Sigurdsson) was arrested in July 2021, suspended by the FA almost immediately, and dismissed by Everton on 23 August 2021.

As an aside, I wasn't aware he'd been suspended by the FA, or that the club sacked him so soon. I understood he remained on the books until his contract expired in June 2022. Does that mean the club stopped paying him in August 2021? Did I miss this?

In any event, as part of the PSR calculation, Everton claimed £10M that they might have collected from Gylfi had they chosen to sue him for breach of contract. But they decided not to sue him! Needless to say, the Premier League wouldn't allow that.

Everton also claimed Covid prevented them selling Player Y in summer 2020. Apparently Player Y was one of eight players named on Brands's summer 2020 transfer strategy document to be sold to raise £80M. But he then mysteriously disappeared from a later version of the strategy document, apparently “because Bill Kenwright was handling his sale”!

Player Y was then given a new contract during the same transfer window! Would love to know who player Y is. Again, unsurprisingly the Premier League wouldn't allow that against PSR.

Regardless, my view is there's never been a better time for a 10-point deduction and Dyche is exactly the right manager to forge an ‘Everton against the world' mentality over the next 6 months. Buckle up!

Brent Stephens
237 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:01:57
James #233.

You daf cun.

John Kavanagh
238 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:07:47
When we get to the League Cup Final, I hope that all the Blues present will give the warmest of welcomes to all the privileged arseholes from the FA when they take their seats.

I was criticised by several posters on here when I forecast before the season even started that we'd need enough points to cover a 12-point deduction. 'No such punishment exists', I was told. Suddenly, one emerged via a press leak and now the 'independent' panel has gone soft on us by only docking 10 points.

Like others, I've always maintained that we are the go-to club for selective punishments because we are not too big to pick on like the Sky 6, yet are too big to win the sympathy smaller clubs would get. Breakaway League? A mere slap on the wrist level fine split 6 ways, suspended and now virtually dismissed.

Half a billion spending courtesy of a key Putin ally bailing out? No problem. A billion in debt and in a crumbling stadium – no worries.

Over 100 financial charges to answer? – Leave it until the rules can be changed to accommodate eh.

Everton? – Let's throw the book at 'em.

The Premier League and its officials are all rotten and corrupt. They are killing the game and will soon relegate 14 teams to being match practice fodder for the Super League 6 through making it impossible for any other teams to genuinely compete either financially or on the field of play.

As for us, the mismanagement of our great club continues on its ever downward spiral. Once again, it's only the true owners of the club, the supporters, who will save us. Let's give the Mancs a game they won't forget.

Tom Bowers
239 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:10:23
At last we top the league in something. The largest point deduction ever in the Premier League. We just had to be first.

Well hopefully this is the end of all the crap we have had to endure for many years.

With results getting better (and they have to stay that way) and new ownership (hopefully), we have something to give us the boost we need.

In retrospect, it was a shame we signed so many players without ever thinking nobody would buy them if they didn't perform, which many didn't. We still have a few getting wages and nothing in return.

It's not much compensation but we all hope others currently being investigated get done too and don't get off just because they carry a lot of clout financially. It has to be points deductions for them too although it won't be as big a problem as it may be for Everton.

Julian Wait
240 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:10:48
James - jus remember we don' care wha the red shie say, wha he heck so we care?!
Paul Birmingham
241 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:12:45
Disappointment, anger, but now it's out, there, I know the squad will be galvanised and use this situation to overcome this punishment.

I also hope the Everton lawyers will take scrutiny with the Premier League and take these showers of shites to the cleaners.

So, in view of Man City's 115 charges, they should be out of football for the next 50 years if parity is given, in view of the scale of their charges.

Everton will possibly face claims from Leeds, Burnley, Leicester, and who else?

But fuck the Premier League – Evertonian spirit is an unassailable force of nature, and Everton will get through this crisis, and become stronger.

Regards any takeover, this decision today could change the game but who really knows what is going on with the internal affairs of Everton FC?

UTFTs!

Jeff Armstrong
242 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:14:51
John @238,

“I was criticised by several posters on here when I forecast before the season even started that we'd need enough points to cover a 12-point deduction. 'No such punishment exists' I was told. Suddenly one emerged via a press leak and now the 'independent' commission has gone soft on us by only docking 10 points.”

No such people exist… apparently.

Darryl Ritchie
243 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:14:54
Everton receive a 10-point deduction for a single offence.

Hmm... that means that ManCity, with over 100, will be battling Wrexham for promotion in League One... right?

Barry Hesketh
244 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:18:01
Can't Everton FC do something proactive about this 'clubs set to sue' narrative? Because if it isn't possible for those clubs to sue, we should try and nip it in the bud, and prevent the journalists and others who are peddling this line from constantly bleating on about it.

Can the club approach the Premier League to issue a cease and desist order? That's of course only if it's impossible for the said clubs from taking legal action against Everton or any other member club.

James Marshall
245 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:20:49
Bren @237,

Hanks man, I knew I could rely on you!

Julian@ 240

Exacly!

Paul Ferry
246 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:23:24
The very best sentence in the club's response is the last one.

I think that the Premier League in their zeal to punish us have lost sight of what this means for the future. This will come back to hit them. I imagine that one of our lawyers is already working on a draft case when Man City's penalty, for one, is a slap on the sheikh's wrist.

How many 'confident' posters come on here with their 'confident' sources about what will happen to us? And not one of them mentioned 10 points and all of them completely misled us. One very vocal person on here in particular reassured us all recently down to an unimpeachable source that there would be no points deduction.

I have never predicted the outcome but I have said many times that we would not go down if we lost a dozen points. We won't. Dyche is the perfect manager for this position. He is known in the football world as a scrapper who gets his teams out of sticky situations. This one is tailor-made for Dyche.

This will be received by some in the footy world as comedy and a golden opportunity to gloat and take pot-shots at us. But for most in the footy world, this will be imagined, it might take a little while to think it through, as yet another example of hanging the ‘menu' clubs outside the cushioned Elysian Fields of the Sky half-dozen out to dry.

The vast majority of footy fans do not walk in these Elysian Fields. They might have a chuckle and a dig but then reality will sink in. We will become the poster-team for all that is wrong in the unethical and unequal corridors of the Premier League administrators and executives.

Reasons to be cheerful:

The Premier League here have provided the rope to hang themselves. Let's mix metaphors! They've opened up a slimy can of worms! This will come back to haunt the suits on North Wharf Road.

It has also guaranteed that we will not go down – much to the chagrin of said suits. This is the position and role that Dyche was put on this earth for and it will tighten an already tight team, club, and fan spirit and resolve.

It is very likely that we will become a metaphor for the double standards of unequal and unethical treatment by the North Wharf Road suits (and a verb: “to be Evertoned”) in the wider footy community. Proper newspaper reporting will swing behind us – the extent to which some on here rant and rave about The Guardian, for example is, quite frankly, embarrassing.

Will Unwin is already pumping out the potential double-standards on display and put the Premier League on watch and warning: “The decision has put into focus other Premier League investigations and how those clubs will be dealt with if also found guilty” (he mentions Man City and Chelsea by name).

Concerns (amongst others):

There is a near certainty that some or all of Leeds, Forest, Southampton, Leicester, Burnley will lodge compensation claims over the next week or so.

One part of the 777 Partners deal, I understand, is that the selling price will drop in the event of us being slapped with a penalty like this.

It is the finances over the next couple of years that really worry me but I'll leave that to better-informed folk than me to explore that particular nest of vipers. I am not worried on the footy side of things. What Dyche does and says from this day on will, I'm sure, earn himself a place in the hearts of Evertonians everywhere.

UTFT!

Gareth Jones
247 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:29:53
What a terrible day for our club!

As well as a thundering and defiant backing of the boys at Goodison a week Sunday, I'm thinking a few impossible to ignore ‘The Premier League is corrupt' chants too?

Peter Griffiths
248 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:34:06
Stages of grief:

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I'm at anger stage at the moment.

Not sure what I'm going to be bargaining for but depression is near.

Dean Williams
249 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:34:51
How did this happen?

Our owner was a fucking accountant. Absoloute wanker.

Kunal Desai
250 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:36:59
So Everton were called up by the independent commission back in March, when breaching P&S there were no penalties in place in March. The penalties were only confirmed on 10 August 2023.

This just becomes even more shocking. Shitbags making rules up as they go on.

Raj Parbat
251 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:39:58
Avid reader on here and hardly post but today the Premier League, Independent Commission, Leicester, Leeds, Burnley and anyone else who wants their pound of flesh from us — you've just picked on the wrong football club and its fans. 💪🏾

Let's give 'em hell, Blues!!! 💙

Barry Hesketh
252 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:44:25
Everton have been docked 10 points, the heaviest punishment ever handed to a Premier League team, for breaching financial fair play (FFP) rules, opening them up to the prospect of paying tens of millions in compensation to a group of other clubs.

Leeds, Leicester, Burnley and Southampton, who were relegated in recent seasons while Everton stayed up, have threatened previously to take legal action and a ruling from David Phillips KC in May agreed the clubs could apply for compensation through the Premier League if Everton were found to have breached FFP rules.

Each club has 28 days to pursue a claim against Everton, who find themselves second from bottom, two points from safety, after the deduction. Any compensation award will be decided by the Premier League commission which investigated Everton's breach. — Source: The Guardian

Well, The Guardian says those other clubs are entitled to seek compensation after today's ruling – good luck with that, I don't think we have any money to give them, even if they are successful with their bids. Administration here we come!

Peter Griffiths
253 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:46:19
Re #248,

Okay, I'm at the bargaining phase.

I rang the Premier League and said I paid good money for my season ticket and I don't deserve this. They told me to fuck off as there are political ramifications here and you are nothing but a puny supporter… Help!

Dave Williams
254 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:48:36
I don't understand how we can be sued by more than one club. If we had been relegated then only one of the others would have been saved so surely only one club could sue?

The commission made it clear that the breach by us was not performance related, hence it had no bearing on other clubs.
I can't see how one of those clubs could successfully sue us.

The Premier League is as others have said totally corrupt. There is so much money in the game that it will always attract shady characters. Backhanders in transfer deals take place at all levels but, at the top of the game, the less scrupulous lawyers and accountants are like bees to a honeypot.

If the game is ever to be cleansed there is an awful lot of work to be done and FFP is not going to do it.

Mike Owen
255 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:49:01
And how are we all going to get to sleep tonight?
Indeed, over the next few months!

The NHS on Merseyside is already overstretched without Evertonians' blood pressure going through the roof.

Kieran Kinsella
256 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:51:59
Dave,

I guess the argument of clubs other than Leicester could be not based on the final table but based on results. Most obviously if we beat Leeds, Burnley etc or even more tenuously if we say beat Chelsea they Chelsea were fired up and rebounded by hammering Leeds or Burnley.

That being said, when this first arose, it was said Premier League rules prevented clubs from suing one another, so is that not the case? Or is this lazy journalism and straw-clutching?

Rob Halligan
257 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:52:19
Fuck them. Fuck the Premier League, fuck the FA, fuck Leicester, Burnley, Leeds, Southampton… and most of all fuck Notts Forest – after all, what the fuck has it got to do with them?

Luton, Burnley, Sheffield United, Bournemouth, Fulham, Crystal Palace – make the most of being above us (except Burnley), because you won't be above us for long.

From now on, Goodison Park is going to be one hotbed of a football stadium, and I really do think any team from now on coming to Goodison will wish they hadn't bothered. I really do wish our next game was against the shite, one of the Premier League's favourite teams, because they would have been crawling out of Goodison on their knees.

Still, Man Utd are next, and they are shite at the moment. So come on, come on, get down to Goodison Park, and let's show the Premier League they cannot, and will not, get this club relegated.

Premier League, you can shove your so-called Big Six clubs about as far up your arse as they will go. They have not been, or never will be, a bigger or better club than Everton Football Club.

For 145 years, EFC have been the Number One club in this country. We were founder members of the Football League, and founder members of the Premier League, and now they (the Premier League) want to treat us like shit. Well sorry, but it ain't happening. Take as many points of us as you like, because we will still survive.

So fuck them!!

Rick Tarleton
258 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:52:26
As long as the independent regulator uses the same criteria and punishes pro rata in all future cases, I will accept the punishment. Moshiri and Kenwright tried to ignore the regulations.

My fear is that Chelsea and Man City will not be treated by the same criteria and will not be punished on a pro rata basis. They offer the Premier League reflected glory and that may save them.

Andy Crooks
259 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:55:31
This will be like a new signing, worth more than 10 points. Galvanised, we will battle on. Let this be our turning point. Fuck the media favourites. We are Everton.

Dyche and his squad have the chance to be heroes. This season is a free hit at glory.

Fucking bring it on!!!

Peter Griffiths
260 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:55:34
Ref #253,

Depression, I know, will come in the night. Sleep will be a chore and commitments tomorrow mean I have to put on a happy face (grandchild minding).

Oh, woe is me. I say to myself now, what is important in life? Family of course.

Jim Wilson
261 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:55:56
Tony Everan @ 221 - Totally agree mate. We must fight this totally unjust and disgraceful points deduction.

People can interpret the not-so-independent judgement all they like but the indisputable point is the punishment does not fit the crime.

Forming a new competition behind the backs of the Premier League is a far worse crime and the clubs involved were fined £4M each so our penalty should be less than a £4M fine.

That is the simple point that we need to focus on.

Trevor Bailey
262 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:56:58
777 Partners are American. America has top lawyers in everything.

777 Partners are now looking at a vastly reduced price for buying Everton, if they still want to. 777 pay top dollar for the best sports lawyer to fight this nonsense. Win, pay Moshiri buttons, he doesn't even deserve buttons (an accountant? My arse!).

Win-win for 777 Partners and Everton. Yeah, I know… dreamland.

Jack Convery
263 Posted 17/11/2023 at 18:59:09
It's no surprise really, is it? We are the scapegoats for everything. First for this, first for that.

The Premier League is running scared of the Tory government, so let's show them we are in control. We all know the Premier League is not played on a level field.

Certain teams were allowed to spend as much as they wanted for a number of years. They established themselves and then came in FFP to put the brakes on anyone else joining them.

It took a country's PIF fund to get The Barcodes involved. Private money will no longer be enough.

Moshiri tried, on behalf of Usmanov, but put his trust in idiots. Hence where we find ourselves today.

Annoyed, angry doesn't cover it – Infamy, infamy, the Premier League has it in for me! Well, unlike Ceasar, who was also stabbed in the back, we will survive and they can go and kiss our Royal Blue Arses.

Dyche and boys will do it so let's give them our all for the rest of the season. COYBs.

Derek Taylor
264 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:00:18
Fuck 10 points, the lads have only to chalk up more than the very poor sides who got promoted!

Fuck the 'independence' of the commission too – much easier to shit on Everton with their playtime Board and lawyers than Man City and Chelsea who can afford proper briefs!

But Dyche will see us through this, no sweat!

COYB!

Jerome Shields
265 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:00:39
I am surprised by the 10-point deduction. There must have been some measure of truth in the 12-point deduction reports.

Looking at the Premier League table, it leaves Everton second from bottom, but I would expect that Everton will be able to get out of the relegation zone.

There must have been a lot of pressure from other competing Premier League clubs, because it looks that the decision was taken to appease them. The £19.5 million over the limit is within a margin of allowances, which Everton were entitled to expect.

At least we now know and the club can plan ahead. I'm glad it's over. Everton are rightly appealing the decision.

Onto other larger offenders, nothing less.

Barry Hesketh
266 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:01:08
Everton may not know the verdict of its alleged breach of Financial Fair Play, or FFP, rules for another four years. News initially surfaced of the charges back in March. However, while fellow Premier League clubs had hoped for a quick resolution to the issue, it seems as if everyone will have to remain patient.

Football Insider recently made the claims after discussing the charges with financial expert Kieran Maguire. “I think it's important that the correct decision is made rather than a hasty decision,” Maguire explained to the publication. “It will take time for Everton's council to fully address the charges and put together a defense that they feel is appropriate.”
Expert references previous financial case involving QPR.

“In terms of precedent, it took four years for the EFL to reach a settlement with Queens Park Rangers when they were promoted to the Premier League in 2014, so I don't anticipate a quick decision, but I can understand why other clubs who have been relegated would be furious,” said Maguire.

These relegated clubs, Southampton, Leeds and Leicester, have all threatened to sue Everton. The trio previously asked the Premier League to speed up their charges. They could ask for as much as $375 million from Everton should they win the case. This, however, is contingent on the verdict of the Merseyside club by the independent commission.

Verdict on Everton FFP violations may take 4 years to complete

So much for expert opinions eh?

Kieran Kinsella
267 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:01:21
Man City - Everton:

It is the equivalent of the Yorkshire police simultaneously arresting Peter Sutcliffe and a 7-year-old shoplifter.

Then saying "Already Sutcliffe we are onto you but get back to murdering while we hang this kid for stealing."

Jim Lloyd
268 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:02:31
Jim (25) I'll come on to my second point in a bit but;

Firstly; the disgusting and opportune way this bunch of slimy crooks on the Premier League Board, have shown themselves to be a rancid a bunch of bent crooks who are in power through our 14 clubs' stupidity!

This bunch of crooks would fit in well in a Mafia godfather's backroom sorting out how to make more money.

Our Club, have gone just under £20 million in the red. After, according to our club, keeping in step with the Premier League, all the way through the period in question, presumably with the knowledge of the Premier League.

Now they've done an absolute disgusting back-stabbing trick on our club. They actually (the mafia muggins) demanded the maximum penalty of 12 points.

I suppose the independent executioners thought they'd like to show their "wholly independent decision" making the axe fall only halfway across our club's neck, with only a merciful 10-point deduction!

I wonder what these slimy individuals on the Premer League Board cooked up as an excuse not to throw the Super Leaguers out of the Premier League!

Bent as a Nine Bob Note, every one on that Board.

Mind you, I think our club's Board are partly responsible as well. As he's passed on, I will not do what I'd like to do, fire a full broadside at our ex-Chairman, other than to say, he didn't carry out his job, nor did thunder thighs, as her job as Chief Executive Officer, nor did the Cheif Financial Officer.

Let's see what happens in the coming months, as we are to appeal.

However, my second part, Jim, is about us! We raise the roof. At the beginning of the game, hopefully some poet can introduce a very suitable chant that will let the Premier League know just what we think of them.

Every time a referee makes another bent decision, then howl the place down that we know what he's done. We have had that happen to us so many times over the years, that just the decisions being fair, would give us those 10 points, and more, in no time.

But more than anything we let our manager, our DoF and the lads in our squad know that we back them 100 %. Now I'm a season ticket holder but I don't go to away matches. I listen in though at our away games and they are just brilliant; the are like a 12th man. It must give our players tremendous heart to hear them all the way through the match. I just hope we can take a leaf out of our travelling band and give our players heart throughout each match at home.

I'm sorry to offend anyone now, but I feel so annoyed, that I'm going to swear a bit. Fuck this shower of cheats who supposedly run the Premier League fairly! They do not! Fuck the bent referees who are so blatant at giving iffy decisions, fuck these clubs who say they will sue us. Try it! It's us now, our club from 1878, generations have lived their lives around this club. Well, it's our turn now.

COYB

Jim Wilson
269 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:04:30
A rallying cry is all well and good, Jack, but when you get refereeing and VAR decisions given against you, which we will, costing us even more points, the trouble we are in will increase.

This must be fought legally.

Lev Vellene
270 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:06:47
Come on, everyone in the whole (football-interested) world will see the silliness of the decision, and most will know why the Premier League recommended shooting sparrows with cannons:

The utter fear of being seen as not being decisive and biding by its own rules, while at the same time trying to avoid being brought to account for the big, income-bringing clubs even more associated with breaking the rules. And by that not bringing in government-appointed overseers.

But this is, after all, a clear precedent for the future, so how can they later allow others to slip by, now that the measly sum of £19.5 million in over-expenditure over a 3-year period is cause for a 10-point deduction?

Oh, I think we will overcome the deduction easily to stay up, the way things are currently going, but I'm salivating at the thought of watching the aftermath and the overall fallout this will cause... ;D

Jim Lloyd
271 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:07:25
Jack, it's nothing to do with politics, if you can call this lot politicians.

The Premier League Board asked for a 12-point (the maximum, wasn't it?) while sitting down with the so-called Super Six and pleading with them not to be so naughty.

They are bent and so is this league and the referees who supposedly run games fairly! Bastards the lot of them!

Ian Edwards
272 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:08:29
The 10-point deduction is really harsh and the club must fight it.

What is concerning is that the club have clearly misled the fans. When the charge was raised, the club said they had done nothing wrong and would fight it. However, the club admitted the breach. We were clearly lied to.

Stephen Williams
273 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:09:29
On the issue of the vultures lining up to pick over the bones and to sue for compensation.

Everton have been working with the Premier League for a considerable period. Everton had no control as to when the points deduction was made.

Surely the concerned clubs should sue the Premier League for their tardiness in dealing not only with Everton but also Man City.

I would also add that having Carragher's comments on Sky, he is actually talking sense for a change!

Dave Cashen
274 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:09:40
Leicester, Burnley, Leeds and any other relegated club who think they can gain from this need to get themselves some dignity.

They did not get relegated because Usmanov's auditors got caught trying to make interest rates shrink. They got relegated because they were totally shite. They got relegated because they barely scraped 90 points between the three of them.

"No sporting advantage" the investigation found. Despite all efforts to prove there was.

Andy Crooks
275 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:09:46
Just imagine, we have outdone Liverpool. Can you not breathe in the intoxicating air of martyrdom? We are wronged and it is sweet.

The press, in their search for a new angle, will see us as the club who deserved (in their view) a proper kicking, getting a worse kicking than they deserve.

There are more positives than negatives here. All will be good.

Dale Self
276 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:10:30
Hey, so it isn't my place and I'm not your mom but a brief health note to you lovable blues who are angry as fuck or dealing with the stages of grief: We are going to get through this just fine. In fact, we will make this stylish beyond belief. It will give us pride to see our club and players respond as any of us would if we could get on the pitch (okay, a bit much there).

The bottom line is choose your level of burden wisely. The world was rather exhausting before this happened. It should help to know this will ultimately work to our favour, overreactions usually have unintended consequences.

Like a new signing was good, Andy.

And the rest of you, note the ‘u' in favour. You're welcome.
Jim Wilson
277 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:13:07
Jim @ 268 - Spot on mate.

As I've kept on saying on here, people can interpret the not-so-independent judgement all they like but the indisputable point is the punishment does not fit the crime.

Forming a new competition behind the backs of the Premier League is a far worse crime and the clubs involved were fined £4M each so our penalty should be less than a £4M fine.

That is the simple point that we need to focus on.

Jeff Armstrong
278 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:13:31
PF 246, just had a bit of a spat with Mick about a similar mindset of blind faith, wishful thinking, and being a proper Evertonian, rather than waiting for the official outcome.

Stop listening to rumours and hearsay, the relegated clubs might well be able to litigate against us no matter what, the corrupt Premier League rules may say otherwise, but that doesn't count in the real world.

Barry Hesketh
279 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:17:07
Fans are rightfully angry about the injustice of the punishment but we mustn't allow those feelings to get out of hand. We're not like the neighbours, we will be noisy in our support of the club, we will rally like no other set of fans, but we won't tarnish the once good name of Everton Football Club.

I say 'once good name' because this sorry episode has tarnished that good name and the people responsible for that are either no longer with us, having been more than adequately compensated, or have already booked themselves on the first train outta town.

If we go down, we go down, but we go down fighting — figuratively speaking.

Colin Glassar
280 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:17:47
Surprised but not really surprised. Angry but not really angry.

This has been coming for years now thanks to decades of mismanagement by Kenwright & Moshiri.

What a legacy these two gobshites are leaving us.

Jerry McCullogh
281 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:18:53
That's me signing off from Premier League football, full stop. Bent as fuck, pointless league now.

I might start going the Marine games now I'm done with it all. It's never been a level playing field for decades.

Steve Byles
282 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:19:24
My worry is the effect of injuries on our small squad. We've been fortunate so far, but if we suddenly lose a few players we may struggle for points.

Also, we need to rely on Burnley, Luton and Sheff Utd all continuing their bad form. I'm hopeful we can survive, but we must fight for our lives for every point on the pitch and in the appeal. The fight starts now!!

Jim Lloyd
283 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:20:39
You're right, Jim! It's a disgraceful example of the two-tier "equality" there is in this set-up.

Hopefully our lawyers will be honing in on the comparison of a £20M "agreed" or at least our club would say that the Bent Bunch were aware of our overspend, and presumably accepted it as it went through.

And in comparison to what the "naughty boys" were up to, it's comparable to getting on a bus and not paying the correct fare! It stinks!

Brent Stephens
284 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:21:24
Dale #276

"And the rest of you, note the ‘u' in favour. You're welcome."

What a well-mannered post. Your mum brought you up well. Note the "u" in mum!

But agree about choosing your level of burden.

Dale Self
285 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:23:24
Outrageous Brent! Good to see you man.
Brent Stephens
286 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:24:32
And you, Dale (outrageous and good to see you!).
Peter Griffiths
287 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:25:19
Ref #260,

What will acceptance mean? What can I say at the moment as I'm still in the bargaining stage, but since I've supported EFC I've never known things as bad as this.

I have trouble understanding my feelings. I feel betrayed by both the club and the Premier League. Can I get that faith back? Perhaps… acceptance, acceptance, acceptance – though this seems far far far away.

Andy Riley
288 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:28:55
One of the things I took from the report is that we sounded overall a bit dodgy. It was as if we were trying to bend every one of the rather unclear rules greatly to our advantage.

One of our expert accountancy experts appears to have admitted that was how he saw his role in the same way as a tax-avoiding (not evading) accountant advising his clients!

Roy Johnstone
289 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:29:02
Hideous example of kicking the 'small club'. Fuck em.

I quote Gordon Lee: “Even when you're dead, you shouldn't lie down and let yourself be buried.”

Circle the wagons.

Jim Lloyd
290 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:31:35
Dale (276) It's a way of letting off steam, mate.

Barry "tarnish the good name of our club" I don't know about you; but I think you'll be round the same vintage, but I've been going to the match 65 or more years. And I am fucking livid. One lad, just above, has said he's going to watch Marine! And I wonder how many other decent supporters are giving up on the blatantly unfair way this league is being run.

We need to be angry, we need to show our anger when a ref blatantly corrupts a decision, but yes, I'll agree with you; the reputation of our club (already dragged through the mud and the courts through this bent shower of bastards, must not be, and will not be tarnished by us, its fans. The Premier League are doing their best to do that.

Paul Ferry
291 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:31:52
Danny (O'Neill), I appreciate all the 1878 Originals and We are Everton stuff, you're very good at that.

I do have a question: You came on here last week telling us that you had a nailed-on reliable source, who you couldn't name, and that we can relax because we will not be getting a points deduction. Can you reveal the name of the source now?

So, how reliable did your impeccable source prove to be? Would you like to apologise for posting crap that was 100 per cent misleading?

Pekka Harvilahti
292 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:31:55
We will survive as we are only 2 points from safety with 26 games to play and we are a better team compared to them.

Another worry is with the possible lawsuits from Leicester, Leeds, Burnley, Southampton and whoever. I understand they try to make use of this, but seriously, it makes no sense.
Those clubs played badly and got relegated.

Their case is only based on the thesis that, if the Premier League had docked Everton during the season they went down, they might have stayed up. But because the Premier League did not do that, they should sue the Premier League, not Everton.

Any misconduct by Everton certainly did not affect the teams mentioned above. Everton's poor management only harmed Everton.

Anyway, it's another proof of different rules for rich and poor clubs. All 6 clubs who tried to join the European Super League should have been demoted right away.

Man City and Chelsea will never get any penalty for their much bigger crimes.

Colin Glassar
293 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:34:37
#281, I agree. Football is bent. Refs are corrupt. The whole game stinks from top to bottom.

Teams owned by theocratic nation states or dodgy Russian oligarchs get away, sometimes, literally with murder but we overspend by a few million quid and we are treated like fucking pariahs.

The Premier League, Sky, FA blazers, Infantino, Uefa etc… fuck 'em all.

Barry Hesketh
294 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:34:42
Andy @288,

You could reasonably argue that the line that the club took was far more annoying to the commission than the actual allegations, which is why they've gone for the most draconian punishment they could mete out.

I still think it's unjust, but the club, or should we say Moshiri has made a pigs-ear out of the situation, yet what happens to them? Moshiri will probably get free drinks in his local Casino for the rest of his life as he retells his trials and tribulations of being the 'owner' of Everton Football Club.

I don't believe we'll see him at a match anytime soon either.

Barry Hesketh
295 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:36:04
Colin @293

I thought post 281 was a mere continuation of your post @ 280, and you'd found a way to obscure your name. :)

Svein-Roger Jensen
296 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:37:10
I didn't know Putin was in charge of the Premier League.
Paul Ferry
297 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:39:17
Texts and messages to the 5live Sport Show on 5live right now, from fans from a variety of clubs, are overwhelmingly expressing anger, disappointment, and sympathy with us. The persistent drumbeat is unequal treatment and the privileges of being in the much-heralded Top 6.

This will do our standing and reputation the world of good and we're only 2 pithy points from safety with a much better goal difference!

Rob Halligan
298 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:39:32
Pekka, the only club with any reason to sue Everton is Leicester, because if this points deduction had been imposed last season, then us and not them, would have been relegated.
Leeds and Southampton would still have gone down.

And as for Nottm Forest, I can't see why they feel the need to sue? Who the fuck are Nottm Forest anyway!!

Paul Hewitt
299 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:40:30
Can we stop saying that other clubs will sue us, they can't.

No sporting advantage was what was made clear in the report. So can we stop with these silly claims.

Jim Lloyd
300 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:41:13
Paul. Give over lad. He put it down in good faith. It's certainly not the time for recriminations against our own.
John Keating
301 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:41:32
It's done done done. It's over. Forget it. The arseholes at the Premier League have set their stall out and let us and every single club accept it.

But let us accept it, let us use this blatant VA fucking R decision galvanise us as Everton, to show these corrupt shysters that we can single-handedly and against a Mafia-like corrupt system, totally, and without assistance, fuck them over.

Let's use this outrageous decision to spur us to obliterate not only every team we play but every obstacle these fuckwits put against us.

Colin Glassar
302 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:44:19
Not me, Barry. It might be Victor Yu but then I suppose he’ll be celebrating.
Jim Wilson
303 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:44:20
Jim @ 283

Let's hope the Pandora's box that has now been opened by the Premier League turns out to be their biggest mistake, with all sorts of things getting exposed.

The government independent regulator said they are not going to ever deduct points from clubs and yet here we are getting a points deduction from the Premier League. It is outrageous.

I do worry however that things will only get worse for us with refereeing and VAR decisions. I have zero confidence that justice will be seen to be done.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, the Toffee TV video 'Everton docked 10 points by Premier League Live' is the best debate they have ever conducted, in my opinion, and well worth a watch.

Dale Self
304 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:45:32
Jim 290,

Oh, I'm with that angry shit don't doubt it. I am only laying out that planet earth drops stuff on you sometimes and you don't have a say in the timing. Don't feel forced into an immediate reactive episode is all I'm suggesting.

If you've got the energy, have a go, but don't let the world run you down on its timing.

Barry Hesketh
305 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:45:59
The independent commission was made up of three individuals: David Phillips KC, who advises and litigates in a broad range of commercial matters including professional liability, regulatory, sports related matters and EU transport regulation, as well as mainstream commercial litigation; His Honour Alan Greenwood, an experienced Circuit Court Judge; and Nick Igoe, a qualified chartered accountant who works as a financial consultant and was West Ham United's finance director between August 1997-December 2012.

Everton's four 'aggravating factors' that lead to the largest point deduction in English top flight history

The West Ham Finance director, who was at West Ham during the Tevez scandal — you couldn't make it up could you?

Philip Bunting
306 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:48:24
As a fan base, could we crowd fund a pot of cash and hire the best investigators going and dig the dirt on each of those reps on that commission, and the Premier League?

I'm sure there are some dirty backhanders received amongst that cartel.

Dale Self
307 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:48:24
Svein-Roger, given past tirades, that one liner is an understated contribution to say the least.
Andy Kay
308 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:50:04
So now we fight back. Every ex-player gets themselves on every media source and tells it as it is. Disgusting corruption. Take every opportunity to get it out there.

Don't say "Well, we had a case to answer", go full on Instanbul RS fans out of the woodwork yelling "They've got to let us back in" in 2005. We never heard the end of it until they got their way.

Bring up the Treacherous Six receiving zero punishment at every opportunity. Make things as uncomfortable as possible for the Journos who visit Goodison and then print lies in their rags.

Make every pundit aware they've taken on the wrong club. The club should bite the hand that feeds it and bare it's teeth at anyone who thinks they can take us on again.

Go full-on Millwall: "No one likes us, we don't care" banners at home and away grounds. Bear pit Goodison. Let the players know what's expected of them and support them to the end.

Find a "Premier League is corrupt" song and belt it out for the nation to hear. And most importantly, never ever forget or forgive them for doing this. Never.

Jim Lloyd
309 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:54:50
Jim, (303), I will watch it.

I'm glad to hear supporters of other clubs see the two-tiered decision-making in this league. Good on them for coming on and supporting us against that bent bunch.

I see that they would like to kick us more, because they know they are going to get some stick. We should point up any dodgy decision if we see it in the match.

John (301)

We shouldn't forget it and nor should we let those bent bastards forget it. But focusing on supporting our manager at home and away, as well as we can, is the best way to do it.

Paul Ferry
310 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:55:36
Jim (Lloyd), absolutely not. People should be held accountable for what they post or they should not post at all.

And one of the things that has really bugged me in a very nervy time for us all is people popping on here with their hard and credible evidence and source for their true comments.

So many popped on with this and that certainty. Think! Is it really that impeccable and, if it's not, tone down your claims. For example, Jim, "I did hear from X but I'm not entirely certain about X that this is what X thinks will happen".

So, Jim, don't single me out to be some sort of - what? - vigilante or venge-feaster. It's an absolutely fecking reasonable question to ask.

Stu Darlington
311 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:56:55
I can't help thinking “What would Bill have done” now?
Brendan McLaughlin
312 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:57:39
There's an old adage in football...

"Don't give the referee a decision to make"

There's now a new one...

"Don't give the Independent Commission a decision to make"

Unfortunately we did but, as with refs... fuck them!

We are Everton!

Jim Wilson
313 Posted 17/11/2023 at 19:59:04
Jim @ 309,

Yes, the more supporters of other teams get behind us the better. We need a bunch of MPs to fight for us too.

The things mentioned in that Toffee TV video does give you hope that things could change on appeal.

Neil Tyrrell
314 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:01:44
Points deduction and talk of lawsuits from relegated clubs, how much could Arsenal or Liverpool sue Man City for if they're found guilty of 100+ transgressions over the last few years? Or whoever finished 5th and missed out on CL money? Opens a massive can of worms.

Maybe we can get a few Man City or Chelsea lawyers on loan to help with our appeal after this precedent has been set.

If half the squad feel as strongly as we do about this,we'll be at least 10 points above relegation come May. And Seamus will finally get to lift a trophy at Wembley. Should galvanise everyone... don't let the bastards grind you down!

We will get by…

We will survive!!!

Si Cooper
315 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:05:45
“We budgeted to finish 6th and finished 17th which was a difference of £26.5M. That was a reckless gamble.”

Graham, was that really reckless? Where did we finish the season before? How much did we spend on players to improve our squad?

The problem was the players that were bought didn't deliver but the money was spent in the belief they would.

The ‘unknown' consequences of transplanting players and hoping they will deliver on potential or rediscover lost form is what Everton were forced to deal with, such is the financial imbalance in the Premier League.

I've said it many times before and I'll keep on saying it: there is no way running a competitive sporting club should be likened to running any other business. Players are not robots and their performance only accrues benefit for the club during competitive matches.

A salary cap is the only way to make the Premier League fair as a competition.

Paul Ferry
316 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:06:52
Oh, and PS, Jim, it ought to be a rule of thumb on here that any post with information that comes from a source that cannot be named should be deleted.
Brent Stephens
317 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:08:10
Paul, I have it on good authority that ToffeeWeb is about to implement that rule of thumb.
Paul Ferry
318 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:11:53
Thanks, Brent, that is really good to know and I suspect that the flock of posts with surefire nailed on knowledge in what has been a horrible topsy-turvy time for all of us when the last thing anyone needed was minsinformation might have contributed to this excellent editorial step.

Hang on mate, I just thought about it, are you taking the piss Dr Stephens!!??

Christine Foster
319 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:12:28
Not long woken up on the other side of the world to this. It was a fitful sleep, without even knowing the judgement had been handed down. I needed a few cups of tea and a sit on the front step to collect my thoughts.

For a quarter of my life, I have been railing against the management of this club, the incompetence and arrogance of ownership and mismanagement of the club, the lies and misrepresentation of fans.

And an increasingly corrupt Premier League. Make no mistake, I still believe we are being made an example of, that Chelsea or Man City will get no sanction worthy of note, that the rules will change to let them off the hook.

I am now a bitter blue, I admit it, but bitter because of the incompetence of our own, no one else. The Premier League is corrupt; independent commission? You are joking, of course, there is no precedent for the judgement, the findings are a subjective interpretation of accountancy rules.

But whatever, we are bottom on goal difference, that is a hit of more than £20M on league placement payments alone. Can we discount that going forward? I suspect not.

So I am going to say it. I don't want your Premier League. It's corrupt. I want to be the best club not to be in the Premier League. Of course that's unrealistic – short of relegation that is, but every club supporter is now on notice: You are fodder, your name is not Sky, your team is not in the Big 6 or whatever, whoever they decide.

We are where we are, we will not go down, we will win, we should sue the Premier League the next time a VAR decides blatantly to deny us. We should be the thorn in the side of this corruption.

They thought they picked the right team to make an example of; they are wrong. They picked the wrong club, the wrong supporters, the wrong city.

To the team and club — fight. We have your backs.

To the owner. Walk away with the best deal you can get, it won't be much.

To every one of us, tooth and nail... no one gets out of Goodison without shedding blood.

To the Premier League. You just made the worst decision of your corrupt life. We will make you pay, every inch of the way we will be your downfall.

Philip Bunting
320 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:13:37
It's laughable considering we lost practically our entire club sponsorship with USM due to world affairs. Quite frankly, if that had not happened, we would have had many more millions to offset our losses. Hardly Everton's fault that is it.

But it's not about that... it's about punishing Everton and Everton only. The Sky 6 cartel and their paymasters at the Premier League are to blame. Corruption on a grand scale.

Mike Morgan
321 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:17:29
If only we had an Accountant in charge. Has anyone worked out who the £20m player we gambled on was, as it could cost us 100s of millions? I hope it wasn't Maupay.

Seriously £20m spent in the wrong financial period probably does break the rules. However, in the Premier League, £20m is loose change. Surely a 10-point penalty is not proportionate?

Paul Smith
322 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:20:10
I've never bought into the victim side of things or that we are treated any differently than others.

That has now changed, forever! Fuck the Premier League and exactly what Christine articulated with passion and clarity.

Don Alexander
323 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:20:56
Kenwright's rabid lust for a personal fortune resulted in him alone acquiring on all our behalves the mere organ-grinder's monkey rather than the organ-grinder himself as our so-called owner, and what a useless monkey he always was – now hugely defeated after investigation by credible accountants.

And remember, Kenwright enabled Green and his like to previously hugely suck into our club, he personally describing the rightly much condemned Green as "The Mozart Of Money". Yeah, right. Repelently Insidious Psuedo.

So now we're minus 10 points on account of those some of us still venerate (!!!). How will the players, manager and coaches react? I would expect that just about all of them have been in contact with their respective agents to establish their very own best way forward. Ideally that'll be to put the max into every match, but we all know this is rarely achieved in today's football.

Talking about today's football causes me to ponder the Premier League itself, they having approved Moshiri (and it seems 777 Partners – are they closely related to 666, I wonder?).

Moshiri is quoted as having given actual evidence to the commission who found him and his conman pal guilty. He said in response to the undefended 16th-place finish in 2021-22 that it caused a loss of expected income of around £21M.

The commission added: "Everton's understandable desire to improve its on-pitch performance (to replace the non-existent midfield, as Mr Moshiri put it in evidence) led it to take chances with its PSR position."

Think about that - Moshiri at last now admitting that the entire midfield he, advised by Kenwright, had created was in need of replacement because it was "non-existent"! A commemorative piss-stone is way more than they deserve in any future never-to-be-owned-by-the-club stadium.

And lastly I'm obliged to Private Eye for summing up the credibility of this government and whomever partakes as so-called top-brass in football.

The current issue spoofs (or is it a spoof?) as follows;

"Downing Street confirms that HAMAS will never be forgiven for the atrocities it committed in Israel – until HAMAS is confirmed as the new owner of Man U, Palace or Wolves.

"HAMAS will continue to be seen to be barbaric savages with no respect for human life until such a sale goes through with the proviso that they spend big to win a place in next season's European Champions League!"

Peter Griffiths
324 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:21:08
Okay, I've read a lot on this thread and I will say no one knows what goes on behind the scenes.

They say, truth will out. But those in power? Not a chance.

Hugh Jenkins
325 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:21:20
Christine (319).

I echo your sentiments, 100%

Premier League = Corruption at its worst.

Neil Blaney
326 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:22:48
If the decision stands, then regardless of any whataboutery it's 10 points and at worst a mini-league for relegation with Burnley, Luton, Sheffield Utd and one or two others. On current form, who'd back against us?

But I share the concern of some other posters re compensation claims from other clubs.

Leeds, Forest, Saints, Leicester and Burnley all applied to be allowed participate in the proceedings which have resulted in the 10-point deduction. The commission ruled against them but, after noting all had potential claims, directed that if the case was decided against Everton the Premier League has to send a copy to each of these clubs who then have 28 days to inform them that they will claim under rule W 51.1.

That rule is very clear that it is the offending club who pays any compensation that is decided. It is the commission who hears the cases and decides on the level of compensation which is unlimited.

Having read today's decision and the views of the commission expressed, I would worry.

Ian Bennett
327 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:25:57
Of the losses of £19.5m, surely the following mitigations matter.

Sponsorship impacted materially by Ukraine War.

Gomes crocked by Son, destroying player value and covering huge wages.

Other players going through huge injuries that effectively ended careers - Bolasie, Tosun, Gbamin.

Sigurdsson suspended on full wages and an amortisation of £9M a season for a crime that was later dropped. The Premier League rejected a £10M claim under PSR for Sigurdsson. That was the sum Everton choose not to sue Sigurdsson for breach of contract for the period till termination.

Ian Jones
328 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:25:58
I like this comment from the Facebook group Everton FC - The Toffee Blues

“This manager, This team will need us more than ever. They took on the wrong club.”

Last 6 words say it all.

Rob Halligan
329 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:26:53
Whilst still fuming over this, I thought I would take a look at the other clubs around us, and the games they have won.

Between Bournemouth, who are in 16th place, and Burnley, who bottom, so four teams, Bournemouth, Luton, Sheffield United and Burnley, they have won a combined total of 5 games out of 48 games.

We've won 4 so far, with many more to come, so fuck the lot of them!

Phil Bickerstaff
330 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:27:24
All this started when Sky and the Premier League wanted to play league football at different times and days.

Everton turned round and said No, Saturday at 3 pm is when football is played and our supporters come to watch.

We were not on Sky much for a couple of years. Corrupt.

Pete Jeffries
331 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:27:36
And now it's down to us the fans together with the team, that's including the manager, to get us out of this mess.

Yet none of the above are responsible for the punishment, the terrible state of the finances in the first place.

Brendan McLaughlin
332 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:36:41
Ian #327,

Actually, none of that matters... nor should it.

Jason Broome
333 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:41:07
Peter Moore @19

Truer words...

Barry Hesketh
334 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:41:46
I'm getting a bit sick and tired of people – most of them former players – saying it's a good time for Everton to take the 10-point hit.

It really isn't, any points removed are bad for the club at any time, as we all know about the 'fine margins' in the Premier League, particularly in the lower end of it; each and every point is vital.

A 3-point deduction from one of the usual suspects and there would be merry hell to play, with many of their former players likely stating that the Premier League had lost them the title or scuppered their chances of European Football. Why should we accept 10 points as being okay because some say that it's not such a high quality standard in the lower half of the table?

We sat on our hands when we were banned from Europe, despite not being involved in those very sad and unfortunate events; we cannot just sit back and accept this punishment because it's supposedly come at a good time for us.

It's an unfair punishment and we have to make our feelings known about it, in whatever way we can. It probably won't get overturned or reduced but to accept it is to accept injustice as a natural everyday occurrence, which would make us complicit in our own demise.

We are paying the price for the ineptness of the Premier League, who possibly should have charged the club sooner. Some would argue that, had they have done so, we would already be in the Championship. That may be true, but it still doesn't make today's decision right or just.

Ian Bennett
335 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:45:10
Why does it not matter?

How can you get a sporting sanction for a series of events that were outside the control of the club?

Before the club had committed to pre-sunk contracts, how could they've known that Sigurdsson was a nonce, the Russians would invade Ukraine, players would be made of sugar puffs, and Son would snap Gomes...???

Jim Lloyd
336 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:45:10
Neil (326), it is dire if that should happen. We haven't got a pot to piss in and what does that future hold for us, if it goes ahead??

All we can do as supporters, is our part. Back our manager and back our squad. We've been doing well; and unless the league want to finish us as a dire warning to all clubs (except the Naughty Boys), we back our lads and we should get out of this mire the Premier League have thrown us in.

Ian (335), Good points but the Premier League we're out to stab us whatever way they could. This stinks, but we have to concentrate on supporting our manager and our players now. I know we will, just raise up the volume even more!

Paul Evans
337 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:46:03
Shocked by this. How corrupt are the Premier League?

Not long before this happens, it emerges the Premier League are pushing for a 12-point deduction. If this was truly independent, then how should they be trying to advocate anything?

This decision suggests they'd rather clubs go into administration than face the panel because you only get docked 9 points!

On top of that, six clubs were set to leave the Premier League for a European Super League, the sanction for doing that was £22 million split between the six clubs!

Everton are definitely right to appeal and certainly right to keep an eye on FFP sanctions given to other clubs.

I for one think we'll stay up but financially it could be crippling.
Hopefully Sean Dyche can use the situation as a motivation and Goodison can be a cauldron for Man Utd. COYB

Paul Ferry
338 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:50:40
On the football side of things, let's not overly dramatise the situation we are in (although I remember the more than a few on here who thought it was inevitable that we would go down if we were handed out a 12-point cut).

We will be absolutely safe and out of the bottom three before too long, as Rob H points out at 329 (keep it up, Rob, your posts are cheering us up!). As I said before, Dyche was put on this earth precisely for this sort of situation and we have this fella called Tarkowski .....

As things sink in, I've only been out of bed for a few hours, and while I have not been angry today – partly because I suspected that this might happen and was prepared for it – I do feel a very strong sense of two things:

(1) As countless others have said, we are being singled-out for exemplary punishment here, far beyond what is appropriate for the offence, our defence, and the sort of precedent that exists in the shape of a similar penalty for sinking into administration. I do see that there is something in the report to the effect that whatever we did had no impact on the pitch and that ought to be sufficient for us to swerve compensation claims from the vengeful five. I also fully expect the points penalty to be reduced on appeal, meaning that we are not currently in the relegation zone.

(2) I'm sorry, there's no escaping it, and I don't much care about "it's too early" (that ship has sailed) or "don't speak ill of the dead", one of the more sanctimonious sentiments ever coined (so, let's just scrap all history and history-writing, shall we?). We did do wrong and the responsibility for that falls squarely on the shoulders of the Chairman and CEO. I've paid my sincere respects to Bill Kenwright (RIP) but him and her were in charge of running daily affairs and Bill Kenwright insisted on being in charge and in the know and having his hands all pockets of the club – long after he owed it to himself to step down and enjoy life as much as was possible.

This, for many, will sadly be Kenwright's legacy and a true testimony of what many of us have spoken about until the cows come home, that Everton were a very badly run club (despite the sad and sick "What would Everton do" untruth). There should never be anything named after Kenwright in our new home. He should be tastefully forgotten.

Alec Gaston
339 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:50:49
Sanction is ridiculous; however, if you get a chance to read the report, it appears that the Premier League raised the issue based on Everton withholding or not being open and honest with information.

The board have tried to hoodwink them which the commission agreed with. Now the club and fans will get punished for its incompetent leadership. Hopefully the punishment will be reduced.

Brendan McLaughlin
340 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:54:10
Ian #335,

Cos most of what you described that happened to Everton could have happened to any club – non-P&S expenditure is very narrowly defined – that stuff isn't included.

Just offering an opinion... not trying to be controversial.

Ian Bennett
341 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:57:14
Two other points.

The club didn't furlow employees during Covid. Spurs and countless others did.

The club got done on the interest charges on the loan taken out to fund the stadium. The Premier League rejected the interest deduction for P&S. They allowed the cost of the stadium, but not the loan interest.

Liam Heffernan
342 Posted 17/11/2023 at 20:58:07
“Liverpool expected to escape fine for breaching FFP

Uefa accept Liverpool's argument that costs of redeveloping Anfield and abandoned Stanley Park plan are mitigating circumstances, though Hull City are not so lucky.”

This from the Telegraph a few years ago. Any chance we can use this in our appeal?

Mike Gaynes
343 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:00:33
Rob #257, beat you to it, mate! (See #162.)

The only sentiment that matters now is... fuck 'em.

Fuck 'em all.

They can't beat us.

Alec Gaston
344 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:02:17
Ian @341,

It appears that is because the interest paid in that period was in relation to loans not related to the stadium.

I think our board have messed up big-time.

Brendan McLaughlin
345 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:03:17
Again Ian #341,

Not P&S deductible... wish it were though.

Alec Gaston
346 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:06:20
What I also find incredible but not surprising is that the position we took when referred to the commission “we deny any breach” changed at the commission to “we admit the breach but is less than you say.”

The way the club was run is disgraceful.

Derek Thomas
347 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:08:17
Not shocked at all. It's been an open secret and well discussed.

Yes, it's a bit of a bugger... you don't get what you deserve – but you usually deserve what you get.

So there's no point in indulging in Man City & Chelsea 'whataboutary' and / or kopite victimism.

We're guilty – suck it up. We get knocked down and we get up again.

Beat United and stick 10 fingers up at the League.

Claw it back one game at a time and fuck Bill Kenwright, Moshiri, the Premier League, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

Sean Kelly
348 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:09:01
Hi folks,

It may have been said in previous posts but does anyone else believe we will be at least a point better off than the three below us in May??

For fuck's sake, Luton, Sheffield Utd and Burnley will be below us by then. Dogs of War shit time again and fuck the Premier League.

Everton should start legal proceeding against the breakaway six for starters and tell the shit-faced Premier League that, if we get relegated, we will sue the arse off them for dragging their heals with the Manc murderers with over 100 never to be adjudicated on breaches. Fuck them.

Barry Hesketh
349 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:09:10
Paul @ 338,

If it was down to the fans alone, we'd be safe by Easter; unfortunately that's not the case, we will still have inferior players when we play many opponents this side of Christmas.

The stakes for those games has been raised today, and that may well help create the siege mentality that might earn us more points from those fixtures than we might have expected from those games only last night.

I'm only too glad that the deduction has come relatively early, but it would have been better had we started the season on minus 10, we may not have been as complacent in those early encounters with Luton, Fulham, Sheffield United et al.

Those early fixtures can now be seen as wasted opportunities, which may turn out to be critical in the final analysis.

Of course we can overcome this handicap, but it will still take a lot of grit and determination to do so, and a decent amount of good fortune with injuries and suspensions to key players. We also have to hope that the officials and VARs don't in any way help to scupper our chances.

Alec Gaston
350 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:09:42
347 Derek - well said
John Atkins
351 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:11:07
Almost £17k raised now for the Atmosphere Fund with the new target of £50k.

We need players and the club to donate.

Can we have a plane with a banner for the Man Utd game calling the Premier League a bunch of corrupt bastards?

It's going to be 26 Cup Finals.

Bring it on, COYB.

They've wronged the wrong club.

https://gofund.me/c368b768

Mike Gaynes
352 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:12:46
“All we've got to do is galvanise the players, the manager and the fans into one, which will be a good thing for them.

They must appeal because that's what everyone does. It will go on until after Christmas, which will just push it further down the road. If I was them now, I would go ‘fair enough, let's take it now and let's finish with it'. They're playing well, they're doing okay, so there's no reason why they can't.

The Premier League isn't a great league from the bottom half down so they've got half a chance of winning that half of the league. It sounds harsh and it sounds horrendous, but if you broke the rules you broke the rules and you've got to suck it up and say ‘fair enough”.

– Big Nev

John Maxwell
353 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:13:43
115 x 10 = Man City v Jossy's Giants next week?
Mark Ryan
354 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:20:44
The club earlier this year

"We've done nothing wrong, we've been working with the Premier League and we're confident of being cleared"

Today "Everton have admitted to the enquiry that they breached the rules"

Those 2 statements equate to one fact: we were lied to.

Barry Rathbone
355 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:23:02
Anyone else thinking of the "harrumph" scene from Blazing Saddles reading this thread?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLO7VrRij_M

Brent Stephens
356 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:27:40
Mark #354,

Maybe Everton really did believe, in their naivety, that they'd done nothing wrong, rather than having lied to us.

I suspect naivety, given the Commission's withering dismissal of every one of the six mitigating factors Everton put forward. Embarrassing to read.

Brendan McLaughlin
357 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:30:07
Alec #346 and Mark #354

That is damming... no doubt.

Kieran Kinsella
358 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:30:47
Grant Ingles was defended publicly by the late Chairman when he lamented people booing "Sharpy and Grant." Despite being part of the board, Ingles crept out pretty quietly but now it's worth remembering this well constructed article from Stephen Vincent 18 months ago.

Grant Ingles – Everton's Invisible Money Man

Wherever Grant is now the mention of Everton and Finance Director on his resume may come back to haunt him.

Andy Meighan
359 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:31:19
Only got to post 56. Joshua I think it was.

Anyone thinking that we will somehow come out of this deduction with our Premier League place easily retained are kidding themselves.

Yes, we've picked up recently, but only away — we've won 1 out of 5 league games at the so-called bear pit this season and been defeated by 3 very ordinary sides.

Next up: the enigma that is Ten Haag's Man Utd and I for one do not fancy that.

This is serious… and I mean Serious with a capital S.

I honestly feel this will have a negative effect on our brittle bunch of players because, let's face it, they are not that good, are they?

Si Cooper
360 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:31:28
“Yes, its a bit of a bugger... you don't get what you deserve – but you usually deserve what you get.”

That's not a factual comment, it's trite nonsense. You could even end up getting exactly what you deserve in the form of rubbish governance if you take it at face value.

If we ‘stick 10 fingers up at the League' it will just look like we are waving at them.

Derek Turner
361 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:36:13
I think I am with Rob at 257.

This thread has been weirdly cathartic.

UTFT.

Nick White
363 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:37:38
Paul and Brent around post 316,

Thanks for a nice bit of banter and a chuckle on an otherwise shit day.

Up the Blues!!!!

Chris Gould
364 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:37:59
You can bet your life that Dyche has already rolled up his sleeves and snorted a line of coke.

“Bring it on, you corrupt cunts. Let's have it!”

We aren't going anywhere. Time for a 26-game unbeaten run.

Graham Mockford
365 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:38:23
Si 315,

We bought two full-backs, Patterson and Mykolenko. We sold Digne and James.

Net spend zero and we thought we would finish Top 6. Well you can dream…

Daniel Thomas
366 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:41:04
How difficult would it be for us to become fan majority owned?

Fuck em all.

We'll stay up but tbh I hope this is the beginning of the end of the Premier League.

Ian Jones
367 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:43:23
Ian @ 335 interesting comment about Sigurdsson – was anything proven in the end?

I'm with those that think we weren't necessarily lied to regarding the breaches. I imagine, with the way the club is run, the management and board had no idea what they were doing.

Mark Murphy
368 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:50:37
£19.5 million. A fifth of a Declan Rice.

Football is fucked.

Paul Birmingham
369 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:51:16
“Whats Our Name?” Viva Santo Domingo!

UTFTs, and fuck the Premier League - Masters and his cronies, all, one leg back handers from the Media and perhaps other clubs. Let's see what Everton's lawyers, can do to them.

There's a web of deceit in the Premier League, but this punishment to Everton FC will unleash a resurrection of a football club with the best die-hard supporters in the world, like nothing seen in the Premier League so far.

Some great banners in design by the 1878 fund, clear and simple, and the noise next week, v United, fuck the Premier League.

UTFTs!


Jim Wilson
370 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:58:49
UK Government & Parliament How petitions work

You create a petition here on the UK Government and Parliament site. Only British citizens and UK residents can create a petition.

You get 5 people to support your petition. We’ll tell you how to do this when you’ve created your petition.

We check your petition, then publish it. We only reject petitions that don’t meet the standards for petitions.

British citizens and UK residents can then sign your petition — and can only sign a petition once.

The Petitions Committee reviews all petitions we publish. They select petitions of interest to find out more about the issues raised. They have the power to press for action from government or Parliament.

At 10,000 signatures your petition on the UK Government and Parliament site gets a response from the government.

At 100,000 signatures your petition on the UK Government and Parliament site will be considered for a debate in Parliament.

THIS IS A NO BRAINER FOR ME

ANY CHANCE LYNDON & MICHAEL?

Subject: The punishment does not fit the crime

Neil Copeland
371 Posted 17/11/2023 at 21:59:12
Firstly, I feel like I should apologise for posting about the rumours in social media about a suspended points deduction and fine. I did try to qualify it as possibly being bollocks considering that I saw it on Facebook but even so, sorry all!

Secondly, we are playing well and there is already a strong bond between the players and fans, particularly away from home. We need to strengthen that bond further and put two fingers up to the lot of them. Every game is winnable, treat this an opportunity to build something great.

We can do this, UTFT!

Tony Abrahams
372 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:01:03
The thing about blame is that it doesn't change a thing, but if there is one thing our fan base has definitely got to become united about now, is to make sure the club's next owners are genuinely fit and proper, unlike the cowboys we have had in charge of our great club for decades.

We have got to turn a very big minus into a huge plus, so it's imperative that our next owners are put through a very stringent process, and have to pass this test with flying colours, imo.

Paul Ferry
373 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:01:28
No chance (370): "We only reject petitions that don’t meet the standards for petitions. ... At 100,000 signatures your petition on the UK Government and Parliament site will be considered for a debate in Parliament".

Roger Helm
374 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:10:42
The club was wrong and broke the rules so some sanction is expected, but 10 points is crazily disproportionate. A £19.5M breach is pocket change in this league.

Is there any point appealing, as the punishment is blatantly political, and how the punishment was decided even before the verdict was in?

It leaves a bad taste when you see what other clubs get up to and the game is getting so corrupt, you start to wonder whether it's all worth it.

So much for “working with” the Premier League. We should have done what Ma City did, closed the books and hired the best lawyers money could buy to litigate the issue to death.

Rob Halligan
375 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:11:51
Man Utd game is on Sky next week, on Sunday 26 November, with a 4:30 pm kick-off. There are no other Premier League games at that time, so the whole world will be watching, and seeing, every banner, flag, song being sung, and just about everything else that will be aimed at the Premier League and showing how corrupt that shower of bastards really are. They must be the most corrupt organisation in world football, and in the end, justice will prevail.

We Shall Not be Moved!
COYB
Fuck the Premier League!

Jim Wilson
376 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:12:00
Paul @ 373,

The government are already involved with the Premier League, of course there is every chance.

Ray Jacques
377 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:18:27
We've sunk lower and lower over the past 10 years. This is basically a punishment for cheating in their eyes. As usual the fans are the victims of the decision.

Hopefully this is our nadir, fans, manager and team will come together, we stay up, fuck the world and get in the new stadium and start again.

Only happen to Everton eh, just as things were looking up. For the first time in 4 years on Saturday night I was optimistic about our situation and then this.

COYB fuck em all.

Paul Ferry
378 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:21:31
I doubt it, Jim, there are too many points at which discretion can be exercised and decisions made. Far more likely would be an early-day motion or Prime Minister's question.
Robert Tressell
379 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:23:38
I've mentioned corruption a few times in recent seasons amongst my daft articles about recruitment and transfers.

I really don't talk in these terms lightly. However, I am convinced that there is a very specific agenda with Everton.

Our reaction to the Super League caused problems. And more than others we had a valid point. Everton have been ever present in the Premier League. It gives us some moral high ground when arguing against our exclusion. And arguing against the validity of a Super League at all.

I'm also genuinely concerned that Liverpool (powerful as they are) cannot stand the idea of being the City's poor relation on the stadium front when BMD is finalised.

There are a few reasons to bring us down to size.

It all sounds like paranoid crazy talk, I know. But then you reflect on the money at stake with all of this, and the not very clean beneficiaries of all that money, the regime washing etc etc. This is not crazy at all. This is how things work.

Just watch La Liga by the way if you're in any doubt as to whether this is a fair sport. Real and Barca run the refs there. Don't be shocked if it's going on here too.

Neil Copeland
380 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:26:37
Rob #375,

Sky will be creaming themselves at the thought of it, timing couldn't be better for them. What an opportunity for us to show the world what the Premier League really is and more importantly who we are.

We must make the absolute most of the media coverage.

Fuck off Premier League,
You are so corrupt! (To the Eric Cantona song tune)

We are Everton and the world is about to find out what that really means.

Danny O’Neill
381 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:31:07
Neil, I am equally guilty of the same rumour but it was from a good source. I think that's why today's news is such a shock.

Let's now see them take on Man City, Chelsea and others if they have the balls and consistency. The shameful six for their attempts to break away.

10 points for one offence. The cost of a decent player?

Anyway Neil, as you say, all we can do is get behind the team as we have been doing.

An appeal may reduce the punishment, but my appeal is to our greatest commodity. The supporters.

Make Goodison as ferocious as what we see in the stadiums on the away trips. Let's get in the face of the authorities.

See you all for Man Utd and then on to Nottm Forest.

Loud, proud and defiant. Not only can we do this. We will do this.

Christine Foster
382 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:36:22
I was listening to the conversation on Toffee TV this morning, excellent I might add, when it was raised that Everton had been working hand in hand with the financial head of the league all along, and that Everton's stance regarding the loan allowance (the stadium) was discussed with them by the club's financial officer.

This was denied by the league and that furthermore, the club could not counter this comment because both the club's senior officers at the time, Denise Barrett-Baxendale and Grant Ingles, declined to give witness statements to the commission.

Now if this is true, it is a gross fuck up by the club and left us without a leg to stand on. Perhaps as a leaving present, they gave it two fingers while taking their golden handshake...
Never in the field of sporting conflict has so much been attributed to so few.

Ray Jacques
383 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:39:52
Danny, we all know Man City won't get touched.

I'm a simple soul. Okay, the club is guilty, hands up. However, £19.5M over 3 years when players are regularly bought for 5 times that much just smacks of hypocrisy. It's not even one week's combined wages for Man City's squad to add perspective.

Punish the owner and board who have fiddled the books, but why punish the fans and players who have committed no misdemeanours? The panel admitted their was no sporting advantage gained so why take it out on the players?

It stinks and opens the possibility of future punishments for all clubs. When it suits of course.

Paul Hewitt
384 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:40:09
Don't watch any Premier League game not involving Everton.

You're just giving them corrupt bastards money.

Andrew Ellams
385 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:40:27
One thing I have learned today is how many of the Back Boris clowns on Twitter are plastic Red Shite.
Soren Moyer
386 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:41:51
A horrendous decision! Such a severe punishment for a small infringement.

A dark, dark day for football.

Barry Hesketh
387 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:43:58
Christine @ 382,

I'm just watching that ToffeeTV webcast, and there are some interesting points made in it. I agree with you, why on earth Everton didn't refute that claim made by the League's representative is a mystery.

The other point was that the Premier League in early August this year, decided they'd better put a formal method of deducting points in place, which meant that any breach of the £105M would result in an automatic 6-point deduction and every £5M over and above that figure would mean an extra point being deducted.

In Everton's case, that was 6 for the breach and 4 for the circa £20M over the breach, which apparently is a formula that the commission failed to use, but still ended up with the same total of points deducted.

Which also begs the question: Why would the Premier League be pushing for a 12-point deduction. We broke the rules, there's no doubting that fact, but it seems to me that the commission took none of our mitigating factors into consideration.

EVERTON DOCKED 10 POINTS BY THE PREMIER LEAGUE

Neil Copeland
388 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:48:28
Danny #381,

When I first heard today's news I was genuinely gobsmacked and still am to a large degree. But I also feel an even stronger bond to Everton as a result. I can't wait for the match every game but Sunday has taken on a whole new meaning as has every game from this point on.

Absolutely we will do it, no doubt whatsoever.

Christine #382, wow! Unbelievable that a formal agreement in respect of the hearing wasn't included as part of the severance packages. Was Moshiri relying solely on Bill?

Brian Williams
389 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:51:08
Danny #381.

Not such a good source after all. I know you posted in good faith though.

Jim Wilson
390 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:53:31
Robert @ 379,

You have never posted a daft article ever and this post is probably your most profound.

What you said is almost word for word what my wife said earlier today.

The Super League comment is spot on and so is:

'I'm also genuinely concerned that Liverpool (powerful as they are) cannot stand the idea of being the City's poor relation on the stadium front when BMD is finalised.

There are a few reasons to bring us down to size.

'It all sounds like paranoid crazy talk, I know. But then you reflect on the money at stake with all of this, and the not very clean beneficiaries of all that money, the regime washing etc etc. This is not crazy at all. This is how things work.'

This is nail on the head and I will go further by saying it would not surprise me if they want to take the stadium from us.

Our new stadium will kill their revenue stream stone dead. It has already taken the international games from them and it will take all potential concerts from them and other events too.

We do need to look at the bigger picture. Why would the Premier League come up with an illogical punishment that could destroy us financially, the very thing the FFP is supposed to thwart. How many Liverpool fans are involved in Premier League decisions?

John Raftery
391 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:59:00
Robert (379)

Your mention of the Super League prompts a thought that today's decision may be one of a chain of events, unforeseen and unplanned, which may lead ultimately to the breakup of the Premier League.

The concept of the Super League and with it the end of jeopardy has never gone away. The Big Six or Seven have not gone away. Meanwhile the can of worms opened today has obvious potential to send the other clubs into a never-ending series of compensation claims against each other.

The resulting chaos will create fertile conditions for the Super League idea to be revived with the Saudis and others ready and able to provide the funding. The idea a regulatory body will prevent this from happening is wishful thinking.

Gareth Jones
392 Posted 17/11/2023 at 22:59:14
How about dusting this off and making our own for every home game from now on?

https://youtu.be/PVq0MrmezpI?si=r-iw_sE3zeRBLhqt

The Icelandic thunderclap!

Scott Barry
393 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:05:06
Throwing out a comment (my first) on how I think we can move forward as fans.

We have some of the best songs, Spirit of the Blues being a particular favourite. However, clubs often have watershed moments that lead to new songs being sung from the terraces – a well-known example being Sunshine on Leith by Hibernian fans.

I'd suggest this is a moment for something new to be introduced from the stands at Goodison. Imagine the power of such a traditional club projecting their defiance through something completely new.

Any thoughts or ideas? Feel free to shoot me down, as an Evertonian I'm used to it. UTFT!!

Paul Ferry
394 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:07:01
Dear God, I hope not Gareth, I find that funny and cringey in equal amounts.
Ralph Basnett
395 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:17:42
Gentlemen of the power wish to deduct the mighty blue of 10 points, beware. You have poked the bear.

We will not sit back and take it, the manager and team will pick up the points that we need and we the supporters will make Goodison a cauldron of pure hate towards anyone who defies our Premier League status, for we are Everton and not the FA or the Premier League or Sky whoever you are. MotD will get to us, we will give you pyro before during and after.

You are not bigger than the game, the game belongs to us, you may have won this battle but football and the spectators will win the war!!

Shane Corcoran
396 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:24:11
Jim, even for ToffeeWeb, that is top class paranoia.
Les Callan
397 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:25:37
Barry @ 387.

If true that these penalties were only formulated after we were charged, this could be a weakness in the Premier League case surely.

It is a fundamental principle of law that penalties cannot be retrospective. So, it would seem that we committed a “crime “ without being aware of possible penalty. Doesn't seem right to me.

Barry Hesketh
398 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:28:36
John @ 391,

Given that the lads at ToffeeTV said that Chelsea and Man Utd are in danger of breaking Profit and Sustainability Rules in the near future, and Manchester City are currently under the spotlight, it might well result in another attempt to form a breakaway league.

Another factor may well come in the form of the Middle East leagues having the money to poach more and more players, which in turn will make it more expensive to recruit players even for the top English clubs.

Today may well be the beginning of the end of the Premier League in its current guise. I wouldn't shed a tear if we could go back to having one league with four divisions and I could even bear having no European football too – we are already used to that aren't we?

The overall standard might drop a bit, but it may prove far more entertaining and more akin to what we grew up watching, rather than the dash for cash game that it has become.

Jeff Armstrong
399 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:30:20
Danny, 381, any clues to question at 291?
Barry Hesketh
400 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:31:09
Les @ 397,

I agree, but the commission were apparently at pains to point out that they didn't use the Premier League's methods to come to their penalty – even though the final total would be exactly the same.

Jim Wilson
401 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:34:51
Shane @ 396 – not a chance, mate.

You need to look at what is happening right in front of you.

Chris Hockenhull
402 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:36:35
Neil (371)m

”I saw on Facebook…” Oh for fuck's sake… yes Fcebook is the font of all truthfulness, as some or most of us generally know…..???????

Ralph Basnett
403 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:37:48
Day before we are punished, Man City announce a massive profit of £700M. Yeah really.
Les Callan
404 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:40:15
If I commit a traffic offence tomorrow which carries a penalty of 6 points on my licence, and £200 fine, then the penalty is increased to 9 points and £400 next week, I am only liable for the former punishment.

Does anyone know what the penalties were when we originally transgressed?

Barry Hesketh
405 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:50:01
Les @404

I don't believe there were any set penalties at the time we were charged. I didn't even know that the Premier League had formulated the penalties until I watched that ToffeeTV webcast.

The Mail has a few takes on today's events:

IAN HERBERT: At least Everton came clean - unlike secretive Man City, but their 10-point punishment displays a Premier League intent on making an example of a club, in a pre-emptive strike against independent regulation

Ian Ladyman

Everton Fan View

Danny O’Neill
406 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:50:12
Let's rally. Stand up and fight.

You're in the Blue Army now as we always have been.

Man Utd home in what will be a cauldron of blue smoke. Forest away, then Newcastle home. Put Chelsea to the sword and then a Quarter-final.

Those 10 points will evaporate before we get a reduction through the appeal.

Jeff Armstrong
407 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:55:18
Danny 406, are you now paraphrasing Status Quo?
Paul Ferry
408 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:56:20
"You're in the Blue Army now as we always have been"???????
Danny O’Neill
409 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:58:33
Not intentionally Jeff. It's been an emotional day!!
David Hallwood
410 Posted 17/11/2023 at 23:59:22
Is the full report online and if so has anyone got any links?
Paul Ferry
411 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:05:21
Brian Wilkinson
412 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:22:05
I cannot believe the cheek of Leicester City crying foul and looking to sue.

The same Leicester City who deliberately went into administration a while back in the Championship, over paid Jamie Vardy wages to keep him there, breach the P&S Rules, but even after going into administration, the shares were sold at a ridiculous low price, new owner came in, no points deduction, and Leicester City gained promotion to the Premier League, through blatantly gaining an advantage.

Now I know many will say Premier League rules are different to the Football League, but either way, Leicester City cheated their way into the Premier League.

All this is down to our accountants at the end of the day, for whatever reason, we screwed up and maybe now others might just see why we had had enough of the board.

We need to restructure from the very top, bring in people who know how to run a football club. We will make these points up, we are in a good place at the moment in regards to team performances. Press the reset button and go again.

But we have to get things in place at the very top, the stench that has been left behind by the board and Chairman is lingering strongly over Goodison Park.

Barry Hesketh
413 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:25:53
Paul @ 411,

I'm sure you'll remember those sew-on badges from the 1970s that had things such as "Everton Rules OK".

I was thinking that a huge flag with Two Fingers and "Premier Rules - NOT OK" might be good. I can't find an image on the net to show what those original badges look like.

Jeff Armstrong
414 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:28:41
Okay, It's 12:20, it's been an emotional day (Danny 409).

I've posted on and off since 2:30 pm but, as the 10-point deduction has sunk in my emotive response is let's beat Man Utd and get to 7 points, and we'll take it from there, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

Take it one game at a time (sweet Jesus)

Successful appeals might be a bonus.

Michael Carr
415 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:36:38
Evertonians need to bombard the Premier League's social media channels, calling them for what they are, which is a bunch of corrupt shithouses.

They picked on the wrong club, they have and opened up a massive can of worms in the process. We will be waiting eagerly for Chelsea's and Man City's punishments for 100+ breaches of FFP.

I can imagine a few fat envelopes full of dirty money will mean that will never happen though. Fuck them, we're Everton Football Club and we shall not be moved.

UTFT

Paul Ferry
416 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:36:43
Barry, I've found a sew on. 'Everton Rule OK' patch but when you follow the link it is not there.

I might be missing something, so hang on…

I did find this but it's not separate:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166423797134?hash=item26bfa19d8e:g:7VkAAOSwoGNlN7Vb

Dupont Koo
417 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:49:13
If those points have to be taken away, this is the best timing to have it: after the deduction, we are only 2 points away from safety and 5 points from 16th place. That is arguably a much better position than this time last season, when the back-to-back walloping at Bournemouth started the downward spiral before the World Cup.

We now have a better and cohesive team, a front-office harmony between Thelwell & Dyche that did not exist previously, and a gaffer with a plan (though a lot of us don't agree with every decision of his!). Also, getting this big dark cloud out of the window would allow the players & coaching staff to concentrate on what is ahead the rest of the season.

Certainly not the end of the world and the rest of the season is long enough for us to achieve safety. UTFW!

Danny O’Neill
418 Posted 18/11/2023 at 00:52:12
I can't sleep Jeff.

I'm up for the Man Utd match, travelling to Forest away and have my tickets confirmed for Newcastle home.

Then we have a Quarter Final to contest. At Goodison.

We aren't going down without a fight. We are not going down.

I haven't even been out tonight.

Light hearted, I still remember my dad making me wear jeans with a patch on the knee (70s) stuff sent from my Auntie. Proudly declaring I am a Scouser. I asked him what it meant. He told me it was because I came from Liverpool.

Mortified.

I thought I came from Everton.

Steve Brown
419 Posted 18/11/2023 at 01:08:03
Here are my reflections after a tough day:

1) Leeds, Burnley and Leicester were relegated because they were crap, not because we over-spent by £19.5M in 3 years.

2) The club was grossly mis-managed by Moshiri, Kenwright, Barrett-Baxendale and the board for years.

3) Loans for the stadium should have been taken from the banks or Liverpool City Council, not Moshiri.

4) We continued to spend large amounts on highly priced players from 2020 onwards when we should have stopped.

5) We should not focus on disproving the charges – the evidence is there – but on reducing the 10-point penalty.

6) I have never seen such a united fan-base, and they will get right behind the team.

7) Sean Dyche is absolutely the right man for the job. He frustrates me sometimes but we need him so no more 'Dyche Out' crap.

Fuck the Premier League with their pathetic fines for the Super Leaguers, the Independent Regulator is coming however much you use us to prove a point and you can stick your 10 points up your arse.

Finally, if Man City are not playing the Dog and Duck B Team on Hackney Marshes in 2 seasons, then we can also conclude that football is as corrupt as we think it is.

Mark Taylor
420 Posted 18/11/2023 at 01:18:26
While I understand that people are concerned about double standards and City for example escaping substantial punishment because of their owners influence, this does not negate the picture that emerges from the ruling today.

At best, we were run by incompetents – which I hope everyone now knows – at worst by outright liars.

We do not come out well from that ruling. Basically a club managed by chancers, pushing their luck to an extreme.

I'm definitely worried about being sued by relegated clubs. It would not be an easy case to defend. Someone could perhaps tell me the page of the findings which says we had no sporting advantage arising from our breach. I read it all and don't recall that being said about the breach of rules.

I hope and believe this will galvanise the team. I'm actually more optimistic we avoid relegation than 6 weeks ago. I am more worried about whether we have anyone willing to fund the club in the near term, as must happen for us to survive.

Administration remains a very possible outcome. If not that, then work stops on the stadium and/or we sell our best players in January to raise cash. The latter might alter the relegation odds...

Kieran Kinsella
421 Posted 18/11/2023 at 01:28:13
Mark

Fair point. I'm actually angry at everyone. The ex-mayor blaming fans for Kenwright's demise, when in truth he passed right before the sum of his work was horribly exposed.

I'm angry at idiot Moshiri and accountants thinking they can Donald Trump their way out of trouble with bluster.

I'm angry with DoFx and managers signing crap players and crap players being even crapper than usual.

I'm angry with the Premier League as ever picking on us versus any other team. We lose USM sponsorship for political reasons, albeit legitimate ones, while Newcastle get new investment for entirely illegitimate political reasons.

The Sky 6 get away with murder and financial crimes, we can't even have a fouled player go down with a retrospective VAR booking.

I don't buy the conspiracy theory they want to relegate us. I think they want us and our large vocal fan base to hang around but no more. It looks good on TV seeing a full house but they don't want us to actually compete.

Along with maybe Villa, we are a team that could seriously shatter the Sky Six party. So they won't let it happen but neither will they finish us off – they'll just let us survive but no more.

It's bullshit I'm tired of it but the imbeciles running the club made it easy.

Tim Greeley
422 Posted 17/11/2023 at 01:40:55
So right now we have to scrap and fight our asses off just to stay in a ruined, corrupt beyond compare Premier League that clearly and overtly wants us out.

Even though Everton is a founding fucking member of the Premier League, the Satan-worshipping paedophiles who run it will still keep pushing this unjust, reprehensible anti-Everton agenda to the sole ends of ensuring that somehow the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock ends up in the hands of Liverpool…

Unless we fucking stop them! Any means necessary. Burn it all down, fucking kill 'em all.

Ron Marr
423 Posted 18/11/2023 at 01:46:56
Not a lawyer, but maybe this is the point about not achieving a sporting advantage:

For example, a deliberate cynical breach of the PSR to achieve a sporting advantage might increase culpability beyond that already arrived at by the extent of the breach. We do not think that this is such a case. Everton may have taken unwise risks, but it did so in the mistaken belief that it would achieve PSR compliance: it is not a case of a deliberate breach.

Report

Paul O'Neill
424 Posted 18/11/2023 at 01:47:41
@Tim #422. Steady on Tim. 😅😆
Kieran Kinsella
425 Posted 18/11/2023 at 01:55:26
Tim,

Kinda what I was thinking…

Steve Brown
426 Posted 18/11/2023 at 02:09:28
Haha Tim, that post has really cheered me up.

And I am buying into it because I want to! From now on, I am blaming Liverpool for all this.

Steve Brown
427 Posted 18/11/2023 at 02:13:37
If we are sued, then we should seriously consider legal action against the accountants and auditors who approved our submissions, including write-offs.

We do so based on their advice so they have shown negligence.

Dan Parker
428 Posted 18/11/2023 at 02:38:00
We should get massive Premier League logo “corrupt” banners at every home game clear and visible for the world audience to see.

Apply a 100-year business embargo Blacklist for any club that sues us. We should not give the Premier League an inch on anything and refuse to cooperate on any other initiatives Premier League-led. Reminds me of Whitehall going after the dockers.

The Saudis will LIV golf the Premier League and the George Santos types currently running it want a piece of that oxycodone cash cow; no way they'll punish Man City. They want rid because they know Everton will morally fight it.

Kieran Kinsella
429 Posted 18/11/2023 at 02:47:49
I read today that the government are concerned that sanctioning Man City would harm relations with UAE.

Then coincidentally watched a documentary on 9/11 and ex-CIA guy was saying they tried to drone Bin Laden before 9/11 but White House stopped them as he was out hawking with a UAE Prince and they didn't want to harm relations.

What kind of world are we living in?

Dan Parker
430 Posted 18/11/2023 at 02:50:26
Spot on, Kieran. Not to mention all the leaders of Hamas living in Qatar.
Paul Ferry
431 Posted 18/11/2023 at 02:58:18
That's not quite the same thing Dan, with respect.
Paul McGinty
432 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:00:01
Since Player X's prosecution ended with him walking without conviction, surely the lesson is to keep on playing guys until proven guilty.

I don't see how the club could successfully sue the player while charges were pending Is it a league rule that he had to be suspended?

I share the opinion of the vast majority, that this looks harsh given the Premier League's treatment of other clubs for actions designed to improve their finances without any concern for financial fair play.

We shouldn't exactly be shocked that they chose a weaker target to flex muscle. The club have to be proactive with Liverpool MPs for example, since the economic future of north Liverpool is jeopardized with this point deduction.

The club needs to develop quickly a unified public relations strategy to exert pressure on government at all levels.

It's clearly all about the money – Chelsea, Newcastle Utd and Manchester City have been this far immune for that reason.

The club needs to leverage support of business and political allies and others to get support in the corridors of power. No point in playing nice at this point.

Dan Parker
433 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:04:13
Fair Paul, could open a can of worms with that one.

Best stick to how corrupt the Premier League is. Will never forgive it, and the club needs to do the same.

Paul Ferry
434 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:16:48
Absolutely Dan, mate
Ed Prytherch
435 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:22:17
Steve 427,

The auditors did sound the alarm but everyone at the club thought that it must just be a practice drill.

Everton auditor considers walking away, raising questions over club’s financing — The Guardian, 12 October 2022

Paul McGinty
436 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:38:43
Dan, my thing is we are stuck playing in the Premier League and the decisions and rules they pass down.

Since they are corrupt, they are going to resist changing this decision through all the internal channels they can muster.

Everton need to push on all fronts including any commercial and political allies. The new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock is a big deal for the city after all, not just the club. A lot of investment is already in place and in the works.

Crappy day to be a Blue.

Kieran Kinsella
437 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:39:25
Paul McGinty,

According to this report, the FA banned Sigurdsson – it wasn't as reported an Everton decision.

But as I posted earlier, why was he banned by the FA and not Mendy or Partey?

Kieran Kinsella
438 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:40:45
Dan,

Not just Hamas. Prominent Al Qaeda member living happily at liberty in Qatar as did the Taliban for years.

Dan Parker
439 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:46:43
I hear ya Pau re the city.

To be fair to the better fans of the other side, they've on the most part given us a lot of support today because they realize how damaging it is for the city.

I'm from Cheshire originally but it's obvious there's a London agenda there compared to that afforded to our Mancunian friends, and in my lifetime it's been like that since the dockers strikes.

Paul McGinty
440 Posted 18/11/2023 at 03:55:56
Kieran, thank you.

So the FA banned a player, thereby destroying his sell-on value. Given he was cleared, that strengthens the Everton case.

Not to flog a dead horse, maybe time for supporters groups to advise the Labour Party not to take Blue votes for granted.
Get the politicians off their rear ends and represent us in this matter.

This is a big deal economically and politicians need to be on the hot seat as part of the solution. Saying the Premier League is corrupt isn't going to do anything. Leverage might do.

Thanks to all – off to bed dreaming hopefully of a brighter future minus the freaking stress.

Ernie Baywood
441 Posted 18/11/2023 at 04:23:27
I've just read the full report. It doesn't make great reading from our perspective.

Our public position seems to be that we have been working with the Premier League over our position. The report reads like we've been actively and persistently trying to pull the wool over their eyes and defend the indefensible.

We shouldn't forget that this isn't about £19.5M. It's about exceeding £105M by that amount. You're not supposed to lose money on your sporting operations and there's a £105M buffer in place before they punish you. We managed to go 20% past that buffer.

Yes, we had some bad luck. A player arrested. A war. But, let's be honest, the Usmanov money was dodgy anyway. If we had gone for an honest stadium deal, we might have actually concluded it. Then wars wouldn't matter.

Highlight of the report is where we have claimed we could raise £80M from certain players being sold but for COVID... and the Commission reach the conclusion that the reason we couldn't sell them wasn't because of COVID, but because they were shite (paraphrased but that's pretty much what they said).

After reading it, we're banged to rights. We all knew the club's spending was stupid. We didn't know just how reckless they were though. Or how cynical their attempts to hide their rulebreaking was.

If that's the punishment then fine. The only question for me is how punishment will be applied elsewhere. That's when I'll feel aggrieved. Because I've got no faith in the Premier League. We've been here before on lots of topics.

Ernie Baywood
442 Posted 18/11/2023 at 04:28:03
Paul 440 - the Commission report says the FA banned the player.

You could argue that's unfortunate for us. But the Commission argues that a player losing his value is business as usual. Injury, form, arrest... these things happen.

It's one of the reasons you have a £105M buffer in place. You can get unlucky and lose money. But it sounds like we were actively trying to live at the very edge of the rules.

The other way of looking at it is that, for us to comply, we'd have had to have nothing ever go against us in terms of luck. It's not realistic. Especially not for us, otherwise there wouldn't be the well-uttered phrase "Everton that"!

Dan Parker
443 Posted 18/11/2023 at 04:52:36
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0080310/

During the Boer War, three Australian lieutenants are on trial for shooting Boer prisoners. Though they acted under orders, they are being used as scapegoats by the General Staff, who hopes to distance themselves from the irregular practices of the war.

The trial does not progress as smoothly as expected by the General Staff, as the defence puts up a strong fight in the courtroom.

Dan Parker
444 Posted 18/11/2023 at 05:33:22
The old board is gone, the new one isn't in yet. Right now it's us, Sean and the players.

The Premier League had us wrong in thinking we were now jaded after a few seasons of relegation battle. They'll see a united fanbase like never before.

George Stuart
445 Posted 18/11/2023 at 05:42:10
This has all the hallmarks of a damage control juggling act.

I never expected 12-point deduction and hoped for 6 points.

6 points and the aggrieved parties would cry too lenient.
10 points and they can still spank Man City and Chelsea with 12 point deduction. One can imagine this sort of discussion going on.

Fuck 'em anyway. The side is looking good and the way is upwards.

Many impressions I've picked up from the neutrals is outrage. Thank you very much.

If we were to get relegated by less than 12 points, we simply refuse to recognise it. Next season will be our gap year. The season after will be our 71st continuous year in the top flight.

If the FA were to go after Man City I can think of at least two English clubs who would be willing to join them in an Arab sponsored English Senior Football League.

Not being racist here. Just a broad category of well monied institutions.

Bob Parrington
446 Posted 18/11/2023 at 05:42:41
The Premier League cohorts are a disgrace to the game. The 10-point deduction provides a double whammy to EFC:

1. It is clearly aimed at making Everton be relegated.
2. If we do stay up, we will be penalised through our league position earnings. This can be a substantial penalty in itself.

The Premier League needs to own up to its mistake in trying to make an example of a side that has been putting hundreds of millions of pounds into creating a top quality, classy stadium that will be used for many international games into the future and help UK win European and World Cup tournaments.

They need to get their heads out of their arses and moderate the penalty to one more in keeping with the misdemeanour.

Eric Myles
447 Posted 18/11/2023 at 05:56:25
Ernie #442, not read the whole thread but is it Sigurdsson you're saying the FA banned?

How could they do that when he wasn't even charged but players from other clubs were charged, stood trial, and were still allowed to play in the interim?

An Arsenal, Man Utd and Sunderland player from my foggy memory, maybe even a Man City one too?

Phillip Warrington
448 Posted 18/11/2023 at 05:57:37
I'm glad at this moment I live in Australia; otherwise, I probably would be in jail, I have already smashed a few things.

How can Man Utd (£45M) breach financial rules by double what Everton have been cited for (£19.5M) and all they got was a fine??? The breakaway clubs got a pat on the back for staying in the Premier League. Chelsea go into receivership keep the players they had plus then be allowed to go and spend millions on even more players. Man Cit'ys charges have been in limbo for years.

Then there's Everton not one of the biggest clubs financially anymore but through history alone still get a spot at the table. The Premier League have been waiting for Everton to slip up so they could bring us to our knees and beg them for help.

They didn't need to hit us with a fine because there will be 5 to 6 clubs rubbing their hands together, as Everton will not be able to defend the lawsuits because they have already been found guilty. To me, unless we win an appeal that clears us completely, we're in for a long hard road financially, as points deduction still means we were still found guilty.

Every Everton supporter around the world should write a letter to the Minister for Sport and ask them nicely to step in, and take over the running of football in England due to the Premier League’s unjust treatment of Everton and their biased support of clubs bringing in big money and helping them to bend the rules and break them through meagre fines.

Barry Hesketh
449 Posted 18/11/2023 at 06:01:48
Having read the full report, I can see why the commission found Everton guilty of breaking the Profitability and Sustainability Rules. I can also see why they punished us with a points penalty rather than with a fine or a transfer ban. However, it seems that if we had have had a less rich person in charge, we might have got away with a fine although that's not a given.

Moshiri is the single worst thing to happen to Everton Football Club, he could have bought the finest lawyers to the club and ensured that we didn't breach the rules, he could have done many things to prevent the club being in the position that we find the club in today.

Although, reading between the lines, it could be argued that his Oligarch mate and relatives of the Oligarch, were the real architects of our demise, and I believe that this whole thing has been driven by politics in relation to the sanctioned Oligarch and has nothing at all to do with sport.

I don't expect any appeal to be successful, as the penalty handed out by this commission and the reasons it gives for doing so, will be difficult for another set of people to overturn, especially given Everton's rather poor showing both in their shallow arguments and failure to provide compelling evidence to support its claims.

Unfortunately as fans we can only grin and bear the fall-out that comes with having poor owners and administrators, there should be IQ and sanity tests for potential owners of football clubs as most of them seem to live in a parallel universe to the rest of us.

If the aggrieved clubs decide to sue, I would steer them towards that sanctioned Oligarch and let him pay for some of the damage that his Iranian mate has done to our club.

I still think the Premier League is an unworthy organisation, incapable of overseeing football and that it will take more than a Government led independent commission to sort out the game in this country.

Government is far too involved in the sport as it is, and I would argue that it's this current government which is responsible for Everton being in front of the independent commission in the first place.

All of that doesn't absolve those in power at Everton, because without breaking the rules, the Government, Premier League and the aggrieved clubs wouldn't have been given the opportunity to get at the club at all.

Andrew Heffernan
450 Posted 18/11/2023 at 06:22:39
Completely agree with Charles Brewer - this is what we can do as fans, let's batter them with our rage and unite as one after years of crap:

Charles Brewer
66 Posted 17/11/2023 at 14:22:11

At least we now know the extent of the corruption and it is now up to Dyche, Tarkowski, Doucouré and the fans to instill a "We can take this shit and shove it right back at the cheating arseholes" on the rest of the team.
A Millwall, Duncan Ferguson, Dogs of War attitude is what's wanted, and I suspect Evertonians are the lots to deliver it.

Goodison's final season needs to be a seething cauldron of terror for visiting teams and bent officials.

Christine Foster
451 Posted 18/11/2023 at 06:34:38
Andrew 450# let's go further.

I would call on every Evertonian, with ticket or not, to be inside and outside the ground. Fill the ground with 40,000, fill the streets with 100,000 more.

This is an affront to every Evertonian, matchgoer or not. Make the streets blue, Everton need you.

Bobby Mallon
452 Posted 18/11/2023 at 06:54:51
Fuck the Premier League. I hate it. I only watch Everton games. Cheating cunts.

And listening to that Red Shite cunt Cascarino this morning makes me want to smash his face in. 😂

[I've been up since 3… a bit tetchy.]

Mike Gaynes
453 Posted 18/11/2023 at 07:05:57
Christine #451,

I'll buy a plane ticket if you will. Think the airfare is about the same.

Paul Ferry
454 Posted 18/11/2023 at 07:15:51
No it's not, Mike G, double yours at the very least. Great sentiment though.

Hope you and yours are well. The united cause on here will be magnified/multiplied fifty-fold at The Old Lady eight days from now, as you well know, Mike.

Jim Lloyd
455 Posted 18/11/2023 at 07:37:56
Barry (489),

The worst thing to happen to this club was the man who brought them in. You will remember, no doubt, that Arsenal chased them.

Dave Cashen
456 Posted 18/11/2023 at 07:41:50
I've woken up with a different mindset.

I would prefer it if the club did not appeal; it smacks of begging for forgiveness. Stand proud. Let's just shove this injustice up their arses on the pitch.

Fuck the Premier League. We were here long before them and we will still be here long after their protected darling Top 6 clubs finally desert them and leave their league in tatters.

The vultures of Leicester, Burnley, Southampton are circling. Rival fans of clubs up and down the country are delighted at our penalty. The Premier League have got what they have always wanted and boy are those cunts in the press feasting on our perceived corpse.

Sure there are a few disingenuous words of sympathy from some quarters, but I'm not having it. I live 160 miles from Liverpool, but I was still woken up by drunken plazzy kopites celebrating our "demise"

The reality is: we are friendless, but in an increasing dog-eat-dog environment, we have perversely gained an advantage. By revealing themselves, our enemies (let's call a spare a spade) have done something we have never managed to do ourselves…

I believe that for the first time since the advent of social media, Evertonia will awaken as one today. We are angry, we are united in our anger.

They couldn't get rid of us when we were deeply divided into many factions by internal politics. What earthly hope is there of extinguishing a united Evertonia?

Just like a tree that's standing by the waterside…

Mike Dodd
457 Posted 18/11/2023 at 07:50:49
Surely the Premier League has a lot to answer for themselves, they passed our current owner as fit and proper, we the fans have been protesting the board's incompetence for years. Maybe we could sue them for putting us in this mess.

What annoys me most is the media narrative about plucky Everton, when we have protested they have been quick to shout ‘be careful what you wish for!'

Now, unfortunately for us all, we have been proven correct and it's us the fans and the players that get penalised being hit with the 10 points, disgraceful.

One last point: Is it true that when the slimy 6 resigned from the league the Premier League stated a points deduction wouldn't be fair as it would penalise the fans not the clubs, is it only their fans that matter?

Jim Lloyd
458 Posted 18/11/2023 at 07:55:35
We have had the judgement, bent or not. We have seen the comparison between our "heinous crime" and the "Naughty Boys" "tiny little mistake" of trying to destroy the format of the Premier League to suit themselves. Horrendous sentence...£4million fine! All I will say now is we see who are our enemies and turn our fire on them.

Other clubs don't necessarily support what's happened to us.
They support us! So if that's the case, we should support their supporters, unless there's a reason why not to. It's in the interests of all clubs who aren't in the Naughty Boys club, to get this effin Premier League Committee out!

I think it's a great idea for all Blues come and show their support of our manager, and DoF, our squad and our workers in the club.

But if we're going to do this, then Stanley Park, right next to the ground, would be a good place. There's lots of littler streets around our ground and they would be chocker block if we do this. Not fair to the residents really.

We could show the bloody scumbags at Premier League headquarters, the like of certain newspapers and so-called experts, the bloody knobheads who are getting paid to be called "pundits" to talk us down. We could show the country what these fuckers have done! And what we think of their corrupt ways.

COYB

Jim Lloyd
459 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:03:42
Dave, I like what you've said, but not all clubs, nor all other teams supporters, are jeering at us. Let's start with this chummy shower of scumbags. I think your point of an appeal not being submitted is a fair one but, if we can't prove our "innocence", then I go along with you.

Fuck them. Don't let us get wrapped up with this corrupt judgement hanging round our necks for months. Every game that starts from now, we can remind the couuntry that this corrupt crew can do the same to any club.

Except the Naught Boys of course!

Derek Knox
461 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:24:30
Dave @ 456,

"Just like a tree that's standing by the waterside…"

I like that, Everton's Salvation Army! Basically what we are now, although we do seem to have sympathy (also found in the OED somewhere between shit and syphilis) from other clubs' supporters. I have held back until now but periodically kept checking the posts.

Keeping my powder dry, if you like, in case I sparked a rage from those who still unbelievably think the late Kenwright was all for Everton and did a grand job! Why does anyone think it took ages to find an investor?

He actually had many interested, including the Mansours before Man City, plus others who were deterred by the fact he insisted on remaining as Chairman!

Until he found a dodgy Iranian-Russian linked Accountant in Moshiri. Whom, I may add, had little or no interest in Everton as a football club, or us, its supporters. Just an investment opportunity or money laundering outlet for the dodgy Usmanov.

That, my friend and all other Blues is why were are in the brown stuff we find we are in today! However, I am proud to be an Evertonian, and I believe we will rise from these ashes better, bigger and stronger, and put two fingers up to the rest of the Premier League clubs and especially the Premier League and FA.

UTFT COYB 💙💙👍

David Hallwood
462 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:34:56
Paul Ferry( #411),

Thanks for that; as there's no game on, I'll go through the report line by line…

Tony Everan
463 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:35:15
Woke up more angry, it's distilling. Watching Sky Sports News, their presenter is trying to be neutral but comes across as gobsmacked by the disproportionate sanction.

Carragher gives a balanced and calm delivery of the decision being way over the top, especially in view of the paltry fines the Super League 6 got.

The Premier League said our interpretation of the rules was a step too far and like a tax accountant trying to evade tax on behalf of his employer.

The rules were written in a world where Covid didn't exist, where Russia's barbaric invasion and essential associated sanctions didn't exist.

Financially damaging incidents like Sigurdsson's are surely a fair and reasonable case for mitigation, even if the rules don't specifically allow it.

They also said:

“That said, there were also mitigating circumstances in the Everton case. The commission, for instance, agreed that the club had “behaved openly and responsibly in its dealings with the Premier League in relation to its PSR challenges, and that behaviour should stand to its credit”.

I think Everton have a good case to get this ruling overturned. We need to hire the best legal minds on the planet and fight this decision with legal intelligence, in tandem with the raw passion.

Christine Foster
464 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:39:16
Mike #453,

One of these days, we will play catch up... alas a fare to the UK next week would set me back $2,800 I don't have! If I did have it, I wouldn't be here!

But I am working on it, or should I say working on the house to sell it to get back home! I have learnt how to plaster, paint, sand floors, patch corrugated iron roofs and paint them... god dam starting to really hate being here, lol.

I walk around most days in old painting clothes and trainers! I need a makeover!!


Rant over. Being there in spirit just isn't enough for me... where is my pitchfork?

Tony Abrahams
466 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:43:27
Scott @393,

Yesterday - all our troubles seemed so far away,
Until the corrupt league went and had their say,
And took 10 points away.

Suddenly - this injustice is gonna wake us up
There is no way we're gonna face the drop
We'll stay up and win the fuckn cup
Coz… we shall not be moved.
🤦‍♂️

I've been waiting for the club to really unite for years, and although this was never going to be possible whilst Bill Kenwright was involved, with the perfect example being that Barrett-Baxendale and Ingles allegedly refused to give a witness statement that could have helped the club, then this is just more evidence that the curse has finally been lifted from our great club.

Change is coming, so let's make sure that the next owners aren't like the last couple of owners, by putting pressure on a phoney league who never punished the greedy six, because they didn't want to punish the fans. 🤮

Paul Tran
467 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:44:40
I've read the report. It says what many of us have said on here. We spent recklessly, as if rules didn't exist. We repeatedly used very creative accountancy – yes 'everybody does it', but they make sure they're complying with rules and limits.

Crying because you overspent on shit players you can't sell, managers not given the chance to do their jobs properly, and massive salaries for non-achieving directors won't help your case. Crying because you attached your business solely to a Russian oligarch won't help your case. Crying because 'other people have done worse' won't help your case.

I've always thought we'd broken the rules and that the 'assurances' were bollocks. It was always going to be about the severity of the punishment.

In the words of the great philosopher, Norman Stanley Fletcher: "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."

We've done the crime, tried and failed to cover our tracks. The only club that's broken financial rules for two relegation scraps. Thanks, Mr Moshiri.

Time to unite and fight for the rest of the season. Dyche will carry on doing his fine job as manager and, in the absence of anyone else, the club's spokesperson for seemingly everything. Supporting him and the players is more important than whinging about 'corruption'.

We'll stay up. We'll show the new owners what this club means to us. We'll show the Premier League they can try, but they can't beat us.

Paul Turner
468 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:49:42
Neil #314 - nice touch (of grey there - the away kit?)

The club may have been run by a Ship of Fools, but this could be the start of The Greatest Story Ever Told. We will Not Fade Away...

COYB!!

John Atkins
469 Posted 18/11/2023 at 08:58:00
If you can lads …. Donate to the Atmosphere Fund, they are meeting this morning to discuss strategy.

Over £21k raised so far and over 1,500 Blues making the pledge.

Bring this on!

GoFundMe Link

Jerome Shields
470 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:00:51
This will not be the last we will hear of this decision. A club with one breach of the Profitability and Sustainability Rules, which has turned out to be a mere £19.5 million over 3 years, and was monitored by the Premier League over a 2-year period.

We also have a statement from the Premier League that Everton were within the guidelines in August prior to the announcement of the independent commission. It seems that the Premier League were successful in applying pressure to the so-called 'independent' commission, recommending a 12-point deduction.

Other Clubs have not worked with the Premier League to the same extent, Some with even worse breaches. It looks like the clubs that have protested have got their way and it opens up the possibility of compensation. This is a big change, since it moves football competition from the pitch to the courts.

The other party in the equation which the Premier League regulatory committee, under Barret-Baxendale, was set up to appease was the Government who were pushing for tighter regulation. A Government minister has admitted he has talked to a representative of the owners of Man City, in their own country, regarding Man City's breaches.

The true facts of the decision will come out in the wash and they will smell, getting worse as more information becomes apparent.

Paul #45,

There is a measure of truth in what you say, but will other clubs be dealt with the same? There is no doubt that Moshiri was the goose, a goose, with the golden egg and the incompetence of those that he maintained at Everton was exposed, as was their greed, but other clubs have cases to answer.

Derek Knox
471 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:06:15
Paul T @ 467,

How are you, mate? Good to see you adding voice to the upswell of anger and resentment which most could see coming but were powerless to do anything about.

One thing that you and many others who have posted have said 'We' and I have possibly done so myself in the past. Let's face facts: We, as loyal supporters have had no say whatsoever in the acquisition of ill-suited and over-priced players. Or the lengths of Contract they were fortunate enough to find themselves offered.

That, and many other totally inane decisions had nothing again to do with 'us' yet we could all see, helplessly, that it wasn't going to augur well for the future. Where are the rats responsible for the attempted sinking of the Good Ship Everton?

Yes, they have scarpered!

James Hughes
472 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:06:38
I have to agree with that post, Paul Tran. Whilst I do not agree with the P&S Rules as they have been put in place to protect the top 6. They are still there.

As the saying goes, fuck around and find out. Well, we have found out.

I think it will galvanise the club and could be the prompt we needed.

David Bromwell
473 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:14:11
Difficult, maybe impossible to accurately reflect what it's like to be an Everton supporter this morning.

My first thoughts are towards our recently deceased Chairman and our extremely well paid and well compensated ex Chief Executive Officer. They both clearly played major rolls in allowing this level of mismanagement to develop and continue and they must share some of the responsibility.

So please: No further mention of Mr Kenwright, and let's try to forget he was ever our Chairman.

Secondly, this issue will clearly run and run and the Premier League will have some difficulty moving on. As it will be now very difficult to argue that positions in the league have any true meaning, particularly as I hope we make an appeal.

In the meantime, I fear for the manager, his staff and the players as I believe it will be impossible for them to overcome this deficit and as a result we will be relegated.

Many will argue that this is nonsense and that we will unite behind the team as never before. But my major fear is with our small squad we will simply run out of players as injuries and suspensions take their toll.

In the circumstances, we have to appeal, unless we have no defence? An appeal will give some hope and just maybe a lesser points deduction.

Jack Convery
474 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:14:36
My real fear is that buyers will back off and we end up going into administration before the end of this season. That will be another 9 points deducted and we'll be down come May.

To avoid administration, we would need to sell big in January and the players who are saleable may end up going for peanuts, as the big 6 pick our bleaching bones. We would also have to cut staffing levels and close down academies / ladies team to save money.

The Premier League know what they have done and, in my mind, it's calculated. They want EFC killed off. The RS certainly do, as it gives them what the barcodes have, a One Team City.

The fact that Man City's charges are taking so long to sort out tells us all the Premier League have no real appetite to take them on. Chelsea will be the same.

In the eyes of the Premier League, Everton are not big enough to take them on – oh boy, are they in for the surprise of their lives. When Evertonians join together, fear spreads through their enemies.

The next VAR decision to go against us at Goodison will be like Tony Hibbert scoring but really really scary! When a big 6 team arrives, the support will be like Aragorn leading the hordes in The Lord of the Rings – The Return of the King. God help them.

We will overcome because it's what we were born to do. We have slept too long. Now is the time to awaken the Power of Blue and screw them, screw them all. UTFTs

Mark Taylor
475 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:15:00
Ron @423,

I recall that excerpt. The way I read that is that we were not guilty of a deliberate, cynical breach. Just being stupid and indulging in wishful thinking.

It does not, as far as I can see, state that we gained no sporting advantage.

Pete Neilson
476 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:15:22
Reading the commission's report:

“On 10 August 2023 the Premier League board adopted a sanction policy that it considered to be appropriate to breaches of the PSR.”

So… 5 months after we were charged, the penalties were decided upon. They didn't exist before then, one of Richard Master's cronies obviously realised this wouldn't look very professional so they simply made them up to give a kangaroo court the veneer of probity. It's how corrupt authorities act the world over.

Steve Cotton
477 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:17:03
Where is the incentive for Moshiri to go and hire exensive lawyers to defend this? He has lost interest and only wants out.

Our chairman of years past has died and there are few people in charge to take this fight on...

I hope I am wrong and we hire some of City's briefs and take it as high as we can.

The few left who have any influence need to appoint a spokesperson to keep us abreast of what's happening and drag this shit into every available court to fight it.

We need to have this case's punishment comparative to the big 6 trying to destroy the entire Premier League, only to get a £3M fine...

Bring it on, motherfuckers...

Steve Brown
478 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:19:22
Is Player Y in Section 109 of the report Michael Keane?

“On 30 August 2020, Keane signed a new contract with Everton until 2025.”

Now that would be ironic, us getting into trouble with the Premier League for deciding to keep him, I have never met a supporter who wanted to do so.

Jack Convery
479 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:21:43
Good to see Paul Tran posting again and as usual talking sense.
Jim Lloyd
480 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:23:24
Hello Derek, Good to read your comments. I've refrained from describing the antics of a certain intersted body who was very influential in our club for 30 years or so: a) to protect a friend; and b) because the main cause of our problems has left. And hopefully not remembered in honour at our new ground.

Whatever the outcome of all this, our part is to support our club, our manager, our DoF and our squad. This is what we do well and our supporters do it brilliantly at away grounds.

Our home ground now should be a bear pit. We can let the corrupters know how we react to their blatant preferential treatment of the naughty boys, both on and off the pitch.

But our job is to get those points back to the difference they were a couple of days ago. All our other methods of putting pressure, turning the spotlight on the corrupt bastards of the Premier League, then let's do it.

Our job, though, is to support our lads on the pitch and off it, and those who work for Everton FC. Many, if not all, are True Blues like us.

Christine Foster
481 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:24:19
Irony. What a bitch.

For the last 20 years, this club had split the fanbase. Prior to his death, Kenwright had managed to alienate so many; now, as a result of his stewardship, the fanbase is united. Totally.

The irony of course is that in part it's his team's incompetence that is to blame for our sanction, the worst ever, which has now, perversely done something he failed to do, unite the club.

I hope this finally puts to bed all those who refused to accept that Kenwright and his team were not to blame.. we are left to pick up the pieces.

We will pick them up, lovingly repair what is broken. Stronger, better... together. We move on... together.

Paul Hewitt
482 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:30:43
Brilliantly written, Christine.
Christopher Timmins
483 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:30:53
Paul #467,

You couldn't have said any better.

Charles Brewer
484 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:32:45
I do not want to see Man City and Chelsea hit with
points deductions, I want to see all teams fail or succeed on the pitch. The only possible justification for taking away points earned in playing would be bribing the officials such that a result was materially affected.

Bans on transfers, fines, prohibition of allowing supporters, permanent and unending exclusion from competitions (say for murdering Italians), all are administrative and technical punishments which clubs can suffer which may impose difficulties on playing, but which do not have any result on the only thing that matters in this sport: the result of 22 men playing within the rules of football.

It may even be reasonable to force the dissolution of a club – for example because its supporters murder opposition supporters (and their own, sometimes), but results, trophies, achievements on the pitch, with the sole exception of official tampering, should stand untouched.

Jim Lloyd
485 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:35:50
ps: Jack (474),

If we've got Aragorn, Legolas, the Rohirrim and the warriors of Gondor, oh, and the Hobbits, coming to help. Well effing well watch out anyone siding with Mordor!

Danny Baily
486 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:35:53
Christine 481, the more I know about the charge, the more I'm convinced we've been stitched up.

It's not the actions of the board that have united us. It's the severity of the punishment from the Premier League, which is very much disproportionate to the alleged offence.

Colin Glassar
487 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:37:15
Yesterday, I felt numb. Today, after reading countless articles (since 5 am) online, I'm really, really, really fucking pissed off!!!

Yes, we messed up but we messed up while under the supervision of the Premier League. We showed them the accounts, followed their instructions, accepted their advice, undersold Richarlison and Gordon to please them and still they fucked us.

Even our most ardent enemies in the media realise this is a travesty. Let's see what happens with the other two media darlings. And the treacherous six? They must be laughing their socks off at this.

Christine, you mentioned the man who I blame mostly for this. I will never name him again as – as far as I'm concerned – he'll remain a stain on our club for perpetuity. I'm glad I didn't shed any crocodile tears for him as so many others did on here and on other sites.

Jim Lloyd
488 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:39:59
Well said Charles. Well said!
Brent Stephens
489 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:41:08
Pete #476

"Reading the commission's report, 'On 10 August 2023 the Premier League board adopted a sanction policy that it considered to be appropriate to breaches of the PSR.' So 5 months after we were charged the penalties were decided upon."

Pete, here's one of the significant things for me. The penalty framework the Premier League wanted has what seems to be a maximum of 12 penalty points (reduced by any mitigations). The Commission on the other hand said it wasn't adopting that framework and would itself decide on penalties.

And all it has said is that Everton have a 10-point penalty. It says nothing about a penalty framework (it says "there is no fixed formula to be applied"; "exercise of our discretion"). This "serious breach" has led to a 10-point penalty in this case.

If I understand this correctly, presumably future cases could result in a penalty greater than Everton's 10 points, and greater than the apparent 12-point maximum in the Premier League's preferred penalty framework.

Paul Tran
490 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:41:48
Thanks for your comments, Derek and Jack. Been very busy with my business, my wife has been ill and I've got a prostate test coming up, so I haven't been on here so much.

I get the corruption argument, but we'll only know when other clubs aren't charged – as ever, we need to mind the distinction between legality and morality. If you're going to sail close to the wind, you need to prepare yourself better than acting like a whinging schoolboy.

Dave Abrahams
491 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:48:07
Paul (467),

A very good post… but ‘Thanks, Mr Moshiri' — did you forget someone else or leave them out because of respect?

Jim Lloyd
492 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:48:10
Brent, Thanks for picking that part out.

This commission seems to be a very handy get-out for the Premier League, who on the one hand supposedly worked with the club to oversee they didn't commit a breach, then plead for an independent commission (who they set up?) for the maximum 12 points, which the commission say they ignored and set their own! Is that right!

If it is, it is even more corrupt than I first thought!

Andrew McLawrence
493 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:53:42
Slightly of topic, but I wonder if Kenwright actually knew this was coming? His passing away may have delayed the judgement being made public as a mark of respect by the Premier League.

I didn't sleep a wink last night as I'm sure many others also struggled with all of this.

Dave Abrahams
494 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:53:47
Paul (490), ignore my post @491.

I just saw your post and obviously didn't know you have more pressing problems to deal with than my question. I'm genuinely sorry about that, and best wishes, Paul, that everything goes okay for you.

Paul Hewitt
495 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:54:48
Let's not forget the board that got us in this mess actually got paid millions to leave. Unbelievable.
Jim Lloyd
496 Posted 18/11/2023 at 09:56:43
Spot on, Paul!
Brent Stephens
498 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:01:50
Jim #492 - I agree.

The commission's "determination" to itself decide on the penalty framework conveniently allows it to appear to be asserting its independence from the Premier League, while at the same time allowing the Premier League via its Commission to hit EFC hard – thus demonstrating to the government that it (now) has control of such issues and thus hoping to avoid government interference with the Premier League's role (and independence! sic!).

Paul Tran
499 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:01:54
Cheers, Dave.

No such respect on my part. Governance comes from the top. Whatever we think of others involved, Moshiri is the business owner, who failed to notice and/or act on the lack of sporting and financial governance.

If he decided to let Kenwright run the business down, that's a different kind of negligence and incompetence.

Eddie Dunn
500 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:03:46
I posted on here when the leak of a 12-point deduction came out, that I wondered if it was to prepare the ground for a smaller points deduction.

I also can't see an appeal succeeding but, if we do appeal, at least the issue will continue to be discussed in the media.
If we succumb quietly and roll over, then the Premier League will think that they can get away with shit like this whenever they want.

Reading between the lines, it seems that us complying with Premier League instructions (as we were told) was not quite what it should have been.

I would love to be privy to the emails exchanged between the Premier League and our leaders.

Let's face it, the owner, Chairman and board have been busy doing such a good job over this period that we were forced to sell our best players, construct transfers on the most complex repayments, and they managed to alienate the fans to boot.
The punishment does not fit the crime but just what were our leaders doing?

Mal van Schaick
501 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:07:19
If the rules are the rules, they have to apply evenly across the board. That is why Everton must now scrutinise every club who are deemed to have breached P&S rules to ensue that we haven't been singled out by bias.

The problem that I have with ‘the rules’ is that we can only scrutinise clubs that are open and transparent and have been put forward to an independent commission by the Premier League. The Premier League can cherry-pick clubs that they have a problem with, or to make an example of, eg, Everton.

On the basis of that, the whole system has been brought into disrepute, because there now has to be a system to scrutinise the scrutinisers.

This will run and run, and if were anything to do with the hierarchy of Everton, I would not let this situation drop.

Paul Tran
502 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:08:31
Don't worry, Dave, I'd rather everyone carried on with the banter.

Thanks for your good wishes.

Dave Abrahams
503 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:09:25
Thanks Paul (499), I understand your post.

I think like you Moshiri failed as an owner but I also think he trusted the late chairman too much and the late chairman abused that trust to a huge degree.

Pat Kelly
504 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:11:06
This is a collective punishment beating.

The Chairman and Directors should have been fined. The fans did nothing wrong.

Alan J Thompson
505 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:11:58
Appeal!!! Sue the Premier League for acting in a biased way that denies natural justice and if they should have the right, however arrived at, to interfere in a club's financial dealings.

Take them through every and any court and make them rue ever introducing such a ridiculous rule. It shouldn't be necessary to show anything other than the ability to trade out of the position.

Ian Bennett
506 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:13:14
Alec 341 - that wasn't the case.

Everton had £168m of assets on the balance sheet from the stadium and loans to fund it in the season under charge. The interest bill would have been significantly less if the stadium hadn't been built. To allow the costs of the stadium, but not the interest is odd as it stops a private company developing their stadium in the absence of alternative commercial capital open to any other business.

That element of the breach, I think could be successfully appealed.

The other elements also seem wrong. Let's assume Man Utd are sailing close to the wind, Anthony's in trouble so the auditors say you're going to need to write off that £90M player value. Do they honestly expect us to believe they are going to sanction Mam Utd with a 10-point penalty?

It's a nonsense. This isn't going to be something that they follow through on, just like Niasse diving.

Brian Harrison
507 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:14:46
Seems that Everton have admitted the breach of the rules and the commission don't accept Everton's mitigating reasons as to why it happened. So we will now appeal the decision and see what happens although I wont hold my breath on it being reduced.

Then there is the story doing the rounds that 5 clubs having read the judgement are now about to embark on suing Everton to the tune of, if reports are right, £300M. I do question why 5 clubs would think they have a case as only 1 club could have avoided the drop in whichever season they want it to be assessed against.

Also, I can't quite understand why they are suing Everton –surely they should be suing the Premier League in not holding Everton to account earlier.

As for the Premier League charging Man City with 115 breaches, City refute all allegations and are quite prepared to take this through every court in the land to prove the Premier League don't have a case.

And unlike Everton, they have unlimited resources with which to fight it and the Premier League simply couldn't afford the cost of long legal battles. I am not saying its right but that is the truth of the matter.

But maybe we should be thankful that the Premier League brought their case now as, if they had done this in the previous 2 seasons and the commission had reached the same conclusion, we would be already in the Championship.

Whereby bringing it now, and even with a 10-point reduction, we are 2 points from safety with 26 games left. I don't think we will go down and I think, even if there is no reduction on appeal, we will still finish 5th from bottom.

Mike Doyle
508 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:17:38
Perhaps it's time to get the players and manager arriving at ground together on a coach again to sample the pre-match welcome.

Irrespective, I expect Goodison will be even more of a bear pit than it would have been to welcome Man Utd next week.

Jimmy Carr
509 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:22:59
Sober minded posters who've read the report are describing us as 'bang to rights' and 'guilty'.

Main things for me are

1. Can we stay up?
2. Will the Premier League apply the rules and punishment as rigorously elsewhere?

No 2 isn't relevant right now, so No 1 it is then. Dyche has got his work cut out, again. More pain ahead for all of us.

I'm a long-term Everton supporter but I'm not about to go marching up and down Walton Road with a placard. It is what it is, we've been docked 10 points for breaking the rules; we're gonna have to deal with it.

Danny O’Neill
510 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:23:58
Defiance. Sheer royal blue defiance in the faces of faceless people in grey suits.

A former Commanding Officer of mine once asked me who these people in grey suits were when they opted against a decision that could have saved lives. Dramatic, but I'm feeling a bit dramatic right now.

All they have done is unified us even more than we have been recently. Our city and our club have always been defiant in the face of adversity.

For those military historians and film buffs. This is Everton's Rorke's Drift moment. Against the odds, backs to the wall, we will do this. And then we laugh in their two-faced bastard faces.

Immediate focus is now on the pitch. The manager has done a great job protecting the players from what is going on around them. He will continue to do so. And we will be behind them. They will defy the odds.

We've got enough to give the Premier League a smacked arse and then watch with interest as they presumably now have to turn their focus to more serious offenders with more than a £19.5M overspend? They chose an easy target. An offender who complied with them and was apparently transparent. Certainly more transparent than the murky dealings of others. They have set a precedent and can't stop here. Onto the more serious offenders.

Sorry, still a bit raw. But defiant. A bit like when my mother got done for earning £10 a week cleaning one day a week at Speke Airport even though she was on benefits. The two people who came around to charge her were clearly on steroids and spent to much time lifting weights in the gym. Bullies and going for the easy targets. They got my opinion. Targeting the easy ones. Just like the Premier League have done with Everton. Sorry again. Irrelevant.

Defiance. Goodison will be absolutely rocking. Be loud, be proud. We shall not be moved.

Forever Everton. More so than ever.

Alan J Thompson
511 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:32:18
And I meant to add, we should right now be taking out an injunction against the Premier League from enforcing this point deduction until it is appealed and other similar cases are heard.
Anthony Dove
512 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:34:32
Ernie @441.

Agree with all you say. The world is not against us but, if that perception serves as motivation to keep us up, all well and good.

I don't think the Premier League can have thought about the dangers of setting this disciplinary hare running. Do they
think a league without Man City and Chelsea will be good for the brand?

Paul Hewitt
513 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:36:57
Alan @511. Totally agree.

How can they take points off us now knowing we can appeal? Imagine if the appeal takes till April then suddenly we get the points back.

Clubs that get relegated can see that as an injustice. They could even sue the Premier League. The Premier League will regret doing this.

Nigel Munford
514 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:40:48
We're a couple of wins away from getting out of this mess given the teams around us and their next games. Imagine the traction a win against Man Utd and Nottm Forest will do for the club, and we're still in two cup competitions.

I'm a born optimist, onwards and upwards COYB.

James Marshall
515 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:44:14
We (Everton) add very little globally to the Premier League brand so, if we drop out of the league or go out of business, the Premier League wouldn't be affected. That's why the Premier League don't give a damn and are happy to make an example of us.

If Man City or Chelsea were relegated, the product would suffer – hence why we got a 10-point deduction, and City & Chelsea will get nothing close to that.

If I'm wrong and both aforementioned clubs also get a 10-point deduction, the impact on them will be a lot less than for us. Man City would be 9th and Chelsea would be 17th. Neither team would end up getting relegated.

I still have a feeling we have a good case for the points deduction to be reduced, or rescinded and changed to a transfer embargo or a fine anyway – this is not over by any stretch.

Richard Duff
516 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:46:15
Fresh perspective this morning.

Appeal and fight to keep the topic in the media.

Fight on the pitch to recover the loss.

Don't bother expecting for Man City and Chelsea decisions to happen until after this kangaroo court has been formally replaced by the government version. Enabling the rules and punishments to change in favour of the clubs.

Niasse and Points — these two will always be ours and ours only.

Jim Lloyd
517 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:46:48
Brent (492),

Thanks for getting back to me. I'm glad I asked you as you've put absolutely clearly what their little game has been.

Derek Knox
518 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:47:00
Danny @ 510, being ex-Military like yourself I know only too well about the men (pricks) in grey suits who haven't got an inkling of what it is like, yet they make such important decisions. That, more often than not, are the wrong ones.

I, like you you, feel in some sort of ironic way that this will hopefully galvanise us even more, if that is possible, and showing them we are an immovable force!

On a lighter note, you made reference to Rorke's Drift. I always felt sorry for anyone there called William. The call was usually "Fire At Will!" :-)

Mike Doyle
520 Posted 18/11/2023 at 10:57:13
James 515, you've hit the nail on the head – and the supporters of most clubs agree.

The aborted Super League breakaway told us how the Premier League will deal with any member of the Sky 6 group who breach any rules – there will be a token penalty most likely to be another small fine, certainly not a points deduction.

Severe sanctions will only be applied to clubs deemed non-essential to the Premier League product.

Pete Neilson
521 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:01:24
The £105M limit over three seasons was introduced in 2013-14 and has not increased since then. Why not?

Does football exist in a bubble where there is no inflation? Of course it doesn't… in fact, the inflation rate is sky high.

Inflation in the football players' transfer market
(2013-14 to 2022-23)

Danny O’Neill
522 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:02:26
My Rhodesian Ridgeback boy is called Rorke, Derek. The girl is named Francesca Bella (Bella) in reference to Francesco Totti. My next one will be called Sheedy.

Favourite quote from the film as a small British detachment faced 3,000 or more warriors.

Private: "Why us"?
Sergeant: "Because we're here lad. Nobody else".

Now that is leadership.

150 defeated 3,000. We can do this Everton. Siege mentality but we will do this.

We are on our own. We have to come out fighting. On the pitch, off the pitch and in the stands.

Kunal Desai
523 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:06:54
Might sound bitter, I just hope now the Saudi League moves full steam ahead to become a dominant super power of world football. Reduce the Premier League to rubble.

Let the big 6 fuck off to form a European Super League whilst removing and making redundant all those cheating VAR and refereeing officials today.

Ernie Baywood
524 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:13:06
Ian 506, I won't claim to be an expert on this but I don't think the issue is that they won't include interest on loans.

It's that they won't include interest on loans that clearly weren't for the stadium (evidenced by the documentation supporting the loans, which they printed in the report). Which is absolutely right in my view.

I'm just an average shit-kicker, but I know that I need absolute separation between my business/investment loans and my personal loans. The purpose of the loan is of paramount importance and that's very clear in every bit of documentation I have.

I also want to maximise my deductible loans and minimise my personal loans. Nothing will muddy those waters. If I understand that for personal taxation purposes... you would imagine a business like Everton would be all over it for P&S purposes (I assume tax on profits isn't an issue for us!).

Everton seemed to argue that, if it wasn't for the stadium, then the money Moshiri put in could have been given to Everton's operations instead of having to take out loans. That's simply not the case – Moshiri put the money into the stadium because he had to, not because he had some specific budget in mind from his personal wealth.

If it wasn't the case, you would think we would have done it the other way around. But we didn't. And then we added to the list of excluded costs we were creatively compiling. We tried to deceive them and shift a business cost into the stadium exclusions.

Tom Cannon
525 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:17:08
Lots of good and impassioned points, many like Colin 56 adding knowledge, study of the case and insight but let's be clear: the decision has nothing to do with football.

It's either – at best – a “look how tough we are” statement for those politicians arguing for a football regulator … someone interested in the game? – or let's kick someone without the infinite financial resources of a football fanatical, human rights loving country like Abu Dhabi.

Look at the Directors of the Premier League… packed with football knowledge and expertise … not unless that includes ex-Sky exec and banker.

Then the Panel making the decision … wall to wall lawyers led by an Arsenal supporter. The Premier League is rotten at its core and talk of Financial Fair Play is nonsense when the only beneficiaries are the oil-rich or dollar-rich.

Remember the dark days when teams like Burnley, Sunderland, Derby County – even Everton – won things?

Or in Europe where this nonsense was started by that well known ethical regulator, Michel Platini – at least before he was banned – where teams like Celtic, PSV, Ajax … could win the European Cup?

Well Financial Fair Play ended all this, but I suspect most of us didn't expect that.

Paul Hewitt
526 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:17:44
Come on, Slimy 6, go and do your Super League. Let's see the Premier League shit themselves when they can't sell their TV rights for toffee.
Graham Mockford
527 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:18:02
The bigger picture here is not some plot to pick on Everton, which many posters claim.

There is currently a push back from the Premier League to avoid an independent regulator. By coming down on us extremely hard, it helps their argument that they can keep their own house in order.

We seem to have been caught in the crossfire. It feels rather pointless to rehash our mitigation defense but to appeal the sanction as being disproportionate.

Julie Naybour
528 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:19:44
If our protests are to be recognisred as anything other than 'bitter", we need to call on all fans of all clubs to stand with us.

Of course, some wont, but on Facebook, there does seem
to be an appetite of support from outside our own fanbase.

In the first instance, it would send a huge message to the Premier League if we can galvanise, if not all, but a significant number of Man Utd fans to stand by our side in protest at the next game.

Ernie Baywood
529 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:26:13
Anthony 512 - Absolutely. If it galvanises the club and the support then great.

But I do think there are a lot of people on here angry at the wrong people. We're as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo.

For all the wailing about Man City's and Chelsea's spending, or the Big 6 breakaway (both rightly, by the way)... maybe we should have some empathy regarding the teams who got relegated while we were clearly breaking rules and staying up?

Their supporters will be livid, and I think they've got a right to be. This idea that we didn't get a sporting advantage from the players we signed is a nonsense. Of course we did!

And we need to stop with the 'it was only £19.5M'. We lost £372M! We got to bring that down to £124.5M... but we were still over a pretty significant £105M buffer they allow before they bring charges. You're not supposed to lose that kind of money – it's dangerous and it's risking the very existence of the football club.

It's like if the police introduced a 20-mph buffer before they do you for speeding. When you get caught doing 95 in a 70 zone you can't argue it was only 5 mph.

Jim Wilson
530 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:26:20
Very good point, Julie. I totally agree that we need as much support as possible from other clubs and their supporters.
Chris Jones (Burton on Trent)
531 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:31:19
As I understand things, the ultimate purpose of Profitability and Sustainability rules is to protect the integrity of the Premier League table which could suffer if a team went bust and couldn't fulfill its remaining fixtures. The only recourse in such event would be to scrub all the failed club's match results, leading to teams that had taken points off them in fixtures already played potentially being hurt.

The penalty for going into administration is 9 points. Everton are penalised 10 points for breaching Profitability and Sustainability rules, ergo creating a risk of going into administration.

It's as if the judge hands down a longer sentence for attempted murder than actual murder. Disproportionate? You bet!

Ged Simpson
532 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:35:34
Julie... bang on point.

Most clubs not worth billions are losing supporters.

Me? Used to watch every way to watch a match from here online. Now… Maybe… Not often.

Other clubs' only concern is "phew, not us!" YET!

Corrupt Premier League… as we all know across the country.

Robert Tressell
533 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:37:39
Graham # 527, it can be both.

Yes, the Premier League is trying to show some bottle to fend off an independent regulator. But the disproportionate penalty does also indicate an agenda with Everton.

It's not particularly far-fetched to say the Premier League, the broadcasting, the refereeing and the treatment of clubs is far from fair and balanced. It's an entertainment package that relies on the big clubs winning in style; and acts as a positive propaganda machine for oligarchs and regimes. There's so much vested interest… 'fair' doesn't come into it.

Robert Williams
534 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:38:53
D O'N @522.

I get your 'drift' but the truth is that this club has been drifting in the wrong direction for far too long. This unfair penalty will not be the last that Everton has to suffer but hopefully it is the one that kick-starts a new era for us in the Premier League.

Rorke's Drift will be a tea party compared to the battles ahead. UTFT.

Paul Swan
535 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:45:31
Christine #481, I completely agree with your post.

But I would also like the fan base to turn their attention to the footballing media who, whilst cosying up to our owner and board, were asleep at the wheel and did not call them out for running our club appallingly.

In fact, the cries from the supporters and protest banners and marches were met with bile, false allegations and condemnation by many. Clowns such as Simon Jordan, Jim White, Phil McNulty and even the sanctimonious prick Ian Wright who condemned the supporters on a prime-time football show only to backtrack a day later in front of an audience of three cats should hang their heads in shame.

Whilst this points deduction is a travesty and out of proportion to the indiscretion, our board allowed this to happen whilst the supporters were screaming for changes and a board who were competent to run a football club — we were largely ignored by the media who would not call them out.

Brian Williams
536 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:54:38
Having had time to calm down "slightly", my ire is directed now towards those who run/ran the club.

They are the ones who've got us into this mess.
They're the ones who run/ran the club like a Sunday league team.
They're the ones who couldn't manage to "account" for £19.5M among the several hundred million of losses.

If we'd have had professionals running the club instead of those that do/did we'd be in the clear.

Yes, the punishment is overly harsh but there shouldn't have been any need whatsoever for us to be punished.

Julie Naybour
537 Posted 18/11/2023 at 11:54:39
I think there's a danger of some confusing two separate albeit linked issues:

1. Our club mismanaged spending. No one can deny we bought so many, bad, overpriced players. Though I do have some sympathy with the club, given the extraordinary liability of building a stadium.

2. We have received a grossly disproportionate punishment given that there were also several mitigating circumstances – covid, the war preventing Usmanov investment etc.

Confusing the two strengthens their judgement.

I think most believe, yes we deserve something but even the most angry of supporters cannot think this is fair, proportionate and justified!!

Especially given we have been completely transparent with the Premier League and agreed to self-imposed sanctions - salary cap, limited transfers, selling our best assets, eg, Richarlison.

Seems like we are being punished twice.

Frank Crewe
538 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:07:40
An argument could easily be made that, once the Premier League was founded, it was always going to end this way. The constant pressure for more success leading to the ever-present need for more and more cash. Enter the billionaires.

Now we have Premier League clubs like Man City and Newcastle Utd financed by nations with virtually unlimited funds. The attempted European rich club breakaway league to grab even more cash and insulate themselves from relegation was just another symptom.

So where does the Premier League go from here? Can't go back to the days of getting revenue from ticket and pie sales. Football is a major global sport. The Premier League is coming under pressure from the likes of Saudi Arabia in the spending stakes, and the Saudis don't have any FFP rules to worry about.

Players will always go where the money is. If the Premier League clubs can't afford them, then they'll go to places who can. So how does the Premier League keep the quality and excitement the best players bring while getting rid of the behind-the-scenes corruption and greed?

Ernie Baywood
539 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:09:55
Julie, I absolutely take the point regarding the extent of the penalty.

But I think there's as much danger in using phrases like 'completely transparent with the Premier League'. Have you read the commission's findings?

We weren't transparent – we actively engaged with the Premier League but we were doing so to hide things and fudge numbers. 'We' (which is not really us) deserve to be punished.

We're the big boys using our financial muscle and hoping that we can lie our way out of trouble because the Premier League wouldn't dare come down hard on a storied club like ours.

As for sympathy for the Russian invasion... will we have sympathy for Newcastle if the Saudis were to be sanctioned? Absolutely not! We danced with the devil...

Christopher Timmins
540 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:13:45
Did Everton breach the rules? In my opinion, the answer has to be a Yes.

Did Everton receive a disproportionate penalty for the breach? In my opinion, the answer has to be again another Yes.

We have to move forward, we must appeal the level of the points deduction while continuing our upward trend on the field of play. We will be fine, pardon the pun.

Come the summer, we will be in a much better place with the new stadium to look forward to, the points deduction penalty behind us, and the winding up of some of the crazy player contracts that got us into trouble in the first place.

Brendan McLaughlin
541 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:16:42
Julie #537

"given that we have been completely transparent with the Premier League"

The report actually states:

"The Commission is satisfied that Everton's PSR calculation in relation to stadium interest was less than frank."

Neil Carter
542 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:19:44
The Premier League has now opened the door to independent regulation. They have set the precedent by which clubs will now be judged and it's almost certain with the amount of money and corruption around the game now that they will slip up.

It's time the fans had their say on football and a government petition to install independent regulation would be a good starting point.

To use Ernie's @539 analogy — all of football is dancing with the devil now and needs exorcism.

Neil Carter
543 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:35:06
I just had look at the government position.

There is a new regulatory body proposed in the Opening of Parliament on 7 November. Assuming that the legislation will only be introduced in the latest sitting of parliament – will it have power to review our case?

Where does the commission that oversaw our punishment sit legally if it's to be redundant?

Julie Naybour
544 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:38:22
We seem to be arguing about 'being completely transparent'

I take your point but I think the commission are using what are less than clear arguments themselves.

At one point, the interest from loans could be used to offset tax, then it couldn't. There were disputes as to what was mitigating circumstances etc. Accounts are often not straight-forward. But we were willing to go to the Premier League to try and pre-empt this and complied with salary caps and transfer limitations.

So I think its fair to think we have been reasonably transparent. But maybe you disagree and think 10 points is completely fair!!!

As for dancing with the devil – I absolutely did not want Usmanov near our club and glad he's not. But, from a purely financial argument, yes I would have some leniency with anyone who thinks they are getting an injection of money, base their accounts on it, and then overnight, have it wiped out — Saudi, Russian or otherwise

Mark Ryan
545 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:45:13
Brian @ 536, spot on.

I'd like to think that this is how we all feel. There can be no mistake, this is our own fault. This is Everton's fault.

I said it right away when the news broke yesterday that we need to not bleat and moan and spend enormous amounts of energy crying and feeling sorry for ourselves. Our energies need to be put into effort on the pitch and supporting the team.

This is not about the Premier League nor the FA. We fucked up, end of. We should accept we are guilty, appeal the sanction but move forward, united together and drown out the noise surrounding the club.

It's negative press. Let's turn this season into one to remember. UTFT's

Neil Carter
546 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:49:13
Interesting we were one of the clubs leading the fight against the greedy breakaway and defending the Premier League.
A breakaway that would destroy the Premier League financially and, based on the current path to greed, means trophies help level the game in the longer term.

Perhaps a rethink by the Everton board given our new situation with the Premier League?

Derek Knox
547 Posted 18/11/2023 at 12:57:50
Paul Swan @ 535, thanks for your post which has triggered something off in me which is exactly as you said. I was one of the many Evertonians who, on a very wet and miserable day, went to Goodison Park to protest about the running of the Club.

There were loads of banners with Kenwright Out and some with the finger pointed at Moshiri too. Sky reporters and camera crew, were there, but were only interested in interviewing the newly elected Fan Advisory Board, who were represented by Jazz Bal (?). Of course none of us knew who he was, or were really aware of who the FAB were either as it was in its infancy.

Nor did we know what was being said as they made sure he was ushered into a space, beyond earshot of us. I, and many others were horrified when we saw the televised version. There was virtually no mention of Kenwright at all. The only banners shown were the few with Moshiri on.

I suppose the point I am trying to get across is the media will always put a slant on any subject, and rarely portray the facts, or the true story. Unfortunately too, most people believe, if it has been on TV, it must be true!

Matt Byrne
548 Posted 18/11/2023 at 13:09:58
Surely one of the first things we can actively do to get the siege mentality stoked up is to ban vile, gutter journalists like Matt Hughes of the Tory Daily Mail rag from Goodison.

He is predictably at it again today doing more shit-stirring and kicking us whilst we are down.

Mark Taylor
549 Posted 18/11/2023 at 13:18:05
Julie @544,

I wish I could feel as robust as you about the integrity of our position.

To take as an example, you mention the interest arising from loans from Metro Bank and R&MF which at one stage we were trying to argue was deductible. Had they been structured so, specific to the construction, this would have been easy.

Instead, the commission relied on the actual documentation which was clear that the loans were towards the working capital requirements of the club. I don't know why Moshiri structured it that way. Maybe to prevent a third party having claims on the stadium? But it was done the way it was done, as a matter of simple fact.

Pushed back on this, we tried an alternative defence that, while accepting the reality of the loan agreements, that had the stadium not been built, Moshiri's loans for the stadium, would instead have gone to the club, hence minimising interest. With the best will in the world, I'd struggle to see how that case could be robustly made. There can be absolutely no certainly that the same loans would have been made to the club, has a new stadium not been progressed.

It's clear the Premier League did not regard us as being open and transparent, and the commission agreed with that, based on the evidence. I think the picture of our owners and directors sailing way too close to the wind, then trying to fit the failed outcome by stretching interpretations to the limit, is a fair one. It's not that we set out to cheat, more that we voluntarily put ourselves into a position where a breach was a high probability.

It's not as though warning signs were not obvious. Our auditors resigned, which is always a red flag. My biggest worry right now is that we seemingly need around £10-20M in cash to survive from month to month and it seems moot as to whether 777 Partners will continue to provide this.

David Hallwood
550 Posted 18/11/2023 at 13:20:27
Hi Paul Ferry,

Read it all and it's enough to make you an alcoholic before noon!

But Firstly Brendan McLaughlin (#541). Finish the quote: “The Commission is satisfied that Everton's PSR calculation in relation to 33 stadium interest was less than frank. The Premier League has made it clear that it makes no allegation of dishonesty.” To my mind, it's either one or t'other!

The impact of Player X; we all know who that is (Icelandic international, accused of but later cleared of serious sexual allegations). What I wasn't aware of is that it was the FA that banned him from playing – not the club. For the posters who haven't read the report, Everton had put the part of the loss on not pursuing Player X for £10 million because of his mental wellbeing.

The supposed sale of Player Y. We don't know who he is, but the FA stated the club had no intention to sell him (although he was on Brands' sale list) because he's been offered a new contract, apparently completely unaware that clubs post Bosman tie players down with lengthy contracts to protect the asset.

The impact on Covid on transfer fees. The FA concluded that football transfer fees was an area hardly touched by Covid. To quote that famous Shakespearian bard John McEnroe: “You cannot be serious, man!” The CIES Football Observatory Monthly Report Oct 2020 reported that “As predicted, the COVID pandemic has brought a considerable drop in the level of investments on the transfer market. In comparison to summer 2019, the drop observed during the last transfer window for the five top European championships was 43%, with a minimal fall in England (-10%) and a maximum in Spain (75%)”

The New Stadium. I can't help feeling that we're being punished for the new stadium, and to my mind all costs should be outside PSR, but alas this isn't the case. If we had a different entity build and fund the stadium or if we had made the decision to stay at Goodison until the old girl fell down around us, we wouldn't be facing a points deduction.

To my mind the legal concept of mens rea (intention or knowledge of wrongdoing) is absent in Everton's actions, it had a crazy Leeds-like spend like crazy to chase the dream for 2-3 seasons, then paired it back significantly, but still had the millstone of the new stadium around the club's neck. Ironically, the FA will be touting it as part of the ‘First class infrastructure' in its sales pitch when a tournament comes around.

The consequences of the FA's actions may be far reaching, and may see the OPEC clubs aggressively challenging the FA. They've opened up a can of worms and to mix my metaphors, let's hope the worms turn and begin eating the rotten carcass of this putrid organisation.

Rob Halligan
551 Posted 18/11/2023 at 13:23:52
Ernie # 529…

“Maybe we should have some empathy regarding the teams who got relegated while we were clearly breaking rules and staying up.”

Maybe you would like to consider your post should have read “team”, as in singular, not “teams”, as in plural. Three teams got relegated: Southampton, Leeds and Leicester. Had we got this points deduction last season, then Southampton and Leeds would still have gone down.

Only Leicester have a case. Leicester went down cos they were shite, not because of what we did. Maybe if James Maddison could take a penalty properly, then Leicester would have stayed up due to their footballing abilities, not some case being heard by some suits in an office, appointed by the biggest corrupt organisation in football.

Nobody on here, or anywhere else as far as I know, are saying we did no wrong, but for me, the punishment does not fit the crime. And Ernie, we can go on about “it's only £19.5M” because, if we weren't over by £19.5M then we wouldn't have had this unjust punishment.

I agree, clubs shouldn't be losing the obscene amounts of money, but they do, every single club does, and that's why there is a buffer of £105M, before action is taken. Everton had been working with the Premier League, making them aware of our situation, and then trying to rectify the situation. We wanted to sell Richarlison for £80M, but the nearer we got to the end of June 2022, we had to accept what Spurs offered, £60M. Had he gone for £80M, we'd have been fine.

So it's a 10 points deduction, for a, in football money anyway, measly £19.5M. I agree the Premier League have to draw the line somewhere, but use common sense, deduct a point for, say every £5M over the threshold.

It's all very well people blaming Moshiri, and probably now, quite right, but, when he took over, nobody could possibly have foreseen what would happen 7 years down the line. Why, when this situation started to get out of hand, didn't anybody within the club bring it to his attention, and say, “Whoa, we need to start tightening the purse strings a little”, instead of carrying on paying ridiculous transfer fees for average players, whilst at the same time paying obscene salaries, and even giving contract extensions to bang average players.

I, along with many others, including the club itself, now wait with interest to see what kind of punishment Man City and Chelsea receive, if any! Man City have something like 115 charges against them, but there is no need to look into every case before giving a verdict. For fuck's sake, we would be waiting decades for a verdict if every case was looked at. Probably easier said than done, but can the Premier League not look at what appears to be the most severe cases, and refer them to an independent commission?

Anyway, that's not a concern for us; our only concern now is climbing back up the table, and rest assured, we will do. I've read somewhere that Luton are improving, haha, don't make me laugh, 6 points after 12 games suggests otherwise.

Sooner or later, Burnley are going to start winning games, 1 win out of 12 suggests otherwise. And as for Sheffield United, need I say anymore, they are just total shite.

Goodison Park between now and the end of the season is going to be a bear pit. I wouldn't like to be a visiting player in the coming months coming to our place. We are on a decent run at the moment, and this points deduction is not (hopefully) going to have an impact on the form of the team. If anything, it should galvanise them, make them roll their sleeves up and say “Fuck you, Premier League”. The fans will now play our part, yet again, and we just hope the team can play their part!

Christy Ring
552 Posted 18/11/2023 at 13:43:15
Reading comments from the Mail and Mirror, the Premier League could allow 3 clubs to sue us for compensation?

Should the Premier League not be at fault for not regulating it properly? And talks of another 9 points reduction and administration is total bullshit. How can Leeds sue us considering they would still have been relegated anyway?

Regarding the P&S Rules introduced by the Premier League, which protected the top 5/6 clubs, and meant the other clubs weren't allowed to spend the same amount as them, which means the other teams are playing by different rules, could the 14 clubs not have voted against it, at the time? Totally corrupt.

Mick Davies
553 Posted 18/11/2023 at 13:51:20
If we go down (probable if we fall into administration), then win the Championship, I suggest us fans demonstrate to stop the club joining the Premier League again. Can you imagine the damage that would do to its image?

We could survive with full houses in the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and a lower wage bill etc. I know it's pie in the sky but, after what they've done to us, I think it would be nice to be a big fish in a small pond, where the powers that be actually appreciate our magnificent club.

And don't let them use the new stadium for their poxy internationals!

Mark Taylor
554 Posted 18/11/2023 at 13:55:34
Matt @548,

I'm not a reader or a big fan of the Mail, so don't know what this journo has written before, but I struggle to see how that article you mention can be called 'shit-stirring'. It is merely reporting the evidence that I think many of us on here already understand.

That May document, in addition to making clear the case could not be completed within last season's duration, also excluded the various applicant clubs (several of whom have subsequently dropped out) from being parties to the commission hearings, while also, setting out the reality that they had recourse to compensation, should we be found guilty of a breach. Which we now have been.

I am somewhat comforted by his suggestion that £100M each is seen as laughably high and if successful, more likely to total tens of millions.

It was also interesting to see his suggestion that 777 Partners have a compensation reserve as well as a relegation reserve built into the transaction price. I assume that means holding a certain sum back when the transaction happens. I am comforted by that.

It increases the chances that 777 Partners will continue to provide the short-term monthly funding we need to avoid administration and, assuming he doesn't pull out, Moshiri takes an ever bigger and deserved haircut. That itself is a good question. Can Moshiri still legally pull out?

I think we should avoid playing the victim too much here. Having read the whole commission report, it chronicles the ineptitude, wishful thinking and borderline deceipt of our owners and directors. I grant you we, the fans, don't deserve to be punished but the club surely did. I'm optimistic we can make good on the 10 points lost, we are playing well enough. I just hope that protection against future financial claims is robust and we remain viable.

Brendan McLaughlin
555 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:00:06
David #550,

"To my mind, it's either one or t'other"

Unfortunately it ain't that simple and more importantly that's not how the Independent Commission saw it.

Ray Robinson
556 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:00:54
I agree with you, Rob, about the teams going down in that only Leicester might just have a case for compensation. Leeds would have still finished third from bottom and been relegated anyway, so any case for compensation that they bring should be laughed out of court.

As for Leicester winning their case for compensation, think what a precedent that would set for Man City if they were subsequently found to be guilty. Every club below them could sue for loss of a a place worth of prize money, Liverpool and Arsenal could sue for loss of titles, fifth placed teams could sue for Champions League qualification etc etc.

Where I'm not complacent though, is our ability to avoid relegation. Ten points is an awful lot to make up. It's true that Luton, Sheffield United and Burnley are atrocious at the moment but it only takes one of them to put a run together (and there are enough games between them for this to be possible) and we will be really up against it.

I still think we can do it and my “Fuck them” attitude will be shared by many but we're only a serious injury or a suspension away from really testing our wafer-thin squad.

Everton and its fans will find a way though!

Andrew Cunningham
557 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:07:59
All we can do now is to win enough games to ensure our survival in the Premier League.

I don't give a toss about Man City or Chelsea. Two wrongs don't make a right. We have been spiralling out of control for too long now and hopefully this is the bottom from whence we can recover.

Svein-Roger Jensen
558 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:14:15
The corruption will go on until the rotten charlatans running the Premier League finally have us relegated. The corruption is beyond repair.
Raymond Fox
559 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:17:42
If we can keep our best players playing every fixture that's left, we will stay up no problem.

But as a cursed club that has had no luck for as long as I can remember, it's been one disaster after another. Some were poor choices but most were out of our own control such as the Icelander saga.

So, if it runs true to form, half the team will end up crocked before long… Watch this space!

Dermot O'Brien
560 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:20:48
Goodison will be a bear pit from here on. Even the fans that don't have rabies will be rabid.
Lee Paige
561 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:21:57
One win with the other clubs around us losing or drawing and we are out of the Bottom 3. I don't get the talk of making up the 10 points, we don't need to.

It's as if some on here haven't been paying attention to what's been going on the pitch recently. Stats based on the last few weeks point to us getting out of it.

It's depressing but one thing I know about this club is that we are fighters. Not worried and I can see us getting out of this and getting back above other teams.

Chris Leyland
562 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:22:09
Ray - no one should be complacent about relegation but we have lost 10 points but we aren't cut adrift as a result. We are currently better than all 3 of the promoted teams and, of the 4 teams at the bottom, we are the most capable of winning games. We've won more games so far than all 3 of them combined. I'd also be unsurprised if we caught Bournemouth too. We have scored more and conceded less than all of these teams.

The 10 points is a massive blow but it doesn't make us a worse team on the pitch. A bigger concern will be our ongoing financial situation and the takeover.

We are currently reliant on loans for the day-to-day operation of the club and if we are forced to sell in January as a result (say any combination of Onana, Branthwaite, Pickford and Calvert-Lewin) then we really could be in trouble as we would then cease to be better than these other teams.

Barry Hesketh
563 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:22:15
I reckon this whole episode will be overtaken in the media by the partial sale of Manchester United in the coming week, the 10-point deduction will barely get a mention in the lead up to next Sunday's game.

Yesterday's news is already being usurped by a 'what will happen to Man City, Chelsea et al' narrative. It looks as if the media have decided Everton have been dealt with and – save the appeal, and possible administration, and being sued – that's enough about that particular episode thank-you very much.

If only we could be covered in the same way as the neighbours, where an injury to a centre-half is deemed newsworthy some years after the injury occurred, or where a single VAR non-goal decision filled page after page of coverage for up to a fortnight, if not for far longer.

As to the fake empathy shown by some, by no means all, of our neighbours fans, remember it is borne out of self-interest and the tantalising prospect of them seeing another title or two added to their honours list.

I hope Man City get off with it, if the Premier League ever get around to charging them, apparently it could be at least 2 years before there is any prospect of them facing a commission.

If we do end up getting relegated, I hope we take the Championship by storm and then when we have won it, refuse to take our place in the Premier League and continue to do that, year on year ad infinitum or until such time as the Super League is up and running.

Dermot O'Brien
564 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:24:11
The Premier League is so corrupt,
The Premier League is so corrupt,
The Premier League is so corrupt
It's full of scum money-grabbing bastards,
The Premier League is so corrupt
Gerry Quinn
565 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:26:17
Apparently, when clubs signed up to the shitty Premier League, they signed up to an agreement not to sue each other, which will be legal and binding.

Is this true, anyone know?

Barry Hesketh
566 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:32:49
Gerry @565,

My very limited understanding is that one club can't sue another club, without it going via the Premier League.

The fact that Everton has been found guilty of the charge levelled against it, means that clubs who feel wronged and are seeking compensation have another 27 days to file for compensation.

Presumably another commission will decide the levels of compensation that Everton would have to pay to those clubs, if that commission finds in favour of the aggrieved clubs.

Dave Abrahams
567 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:35:20
Yes, we are guilty of this one breach of the rules, but surely in mitigation at the appeal we can argue that the Premier League introduced new rules halfway through the case against us.

The case began in March and finished in November but in August the Premier League came out with the guidance that any club found guilty of breaching the P&S rules would start off with a 12-point reduction with points taken off with mitigation taken in consideration. surely they can't behave like this halfway through a trial?

Dale Self
568 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:40:09
I'm still going back and forth between Tim Greeley's and Paul Tran's perspectives. This could be done better by someone more eloquent but I think we are showing that this club is about the fans, players and coaches.

We will get through this by our collective strength and will demonstrate total football character. We didn't fuck it up but we will damn sure make it right.

Brent Stephens
569 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:40:19
Dave #567,

"The case began in March and finished in November but in August the Premier League came out with that any club found guilty of breaching the P&S rules would start off with a 12-point deduction with points taken off with mitigation taken in consideration. Surely they can't behave like this halfway through a trial."

Dave, the Commission explicitly rejected the Premier League proposal on sanctions; instead they "independently" (cough) set the sanction level.

But maybe your point is still valid, in terms of the decision on the sanctions framework being after the event.

Mark Taylor
570 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:40:32
Gerry @556,

My understanding is that Premier League clubs are allowed to invoke arbitration proceedings against another Premier League club, on the basis of findings by the commission.

That isn't technically being sued in a court of law, but I suppose the impact is much the same, since it can include compensation.

If my understanding is incorrect, happy for others to clarify.

Bill Fairfield
571 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:41:32
It's an absolute joke. Especially when the idiots have sanctioned transfers on our behalf. Everton have to fight this all the way through the courts if not negotiated down on appeal.

I've never agreed with FFP or seen the supposed sporting benefit. In a business sense, it's anti-competitive, and does nothing but consolidate the ability of the already rich to stay at the top.

It's yet another crap modern day proposal that needs to be removed by legal challenge.

Ray Robinson
572 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:46:50
I agree that we only have to stay above three other teams and that we don't have to “make up” 10 points to do so. I should have said those 10 points lost constituted a real buffer against relegation and that one of the three promoted sides, however bad they might be, might just put a run together.

Remember Leicester, dead and buried at the end of the season before they won the league? It's dangerous to assume that the previously bottom three teams are so bad that they can't improve. We don't have a sufficiently strong squad to assume anything, when suspensions and injuries could cause havoc. Therefore, I'm not complacent.

Do I think we can stay up? You bet I do!

I look forward to sticking two fingers up to the Premier League at the end of the season.

Barry Cowling
573 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:48:13
Well done, Premier League, they have just banged in the first nail in their own coffin. The European Super League is now an inevitability.

One thing you can be sure of is that those who have money to spend will find a way to spend it, which leaves two options, either they have to change the rules or they find somewhere else to spend it.

One of Everton's first calls on Monday could be from Juventus, asking for a little chat and Juventus's next call will be to Man City (who will be cacking their boots).

Mourinho would be in his element now with his siege mentallity, and I am sure the ginger Mourinho will be doing similar.

Dave Abrahams
574 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:48:14
Brent (569),

Fair enough, Brent, but can the commission legally do this? It really does seem they are making it up as they go along.

Mal van Schaick
575 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:51:59
Perhaps Everton's legal team can postpone any actions or indictments sanctioned by the Premier League by basing its legal challenge on the outcome of Premier League findings against Man City and Chelsea?

That would mean the reimbursement of our points and current league position, until such times it can be deemed that the case findings against us are fair, as this is an unprecedented set of circumstances.

Barry Hesketh
576 Posted 18/11/2023 at 14:56:23
Paul Quinn aka Paul the Esk, gives his thoughts on yesterday's announcement of the 10-point deduction, in today's Guardian.

Everton fan's view: Premier League's 10-point penalty simply doesn't add up
John Steadman
577 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:03:54
Just for starters on Sunday, let's makes the streets around Goodison completely Blue, flags and flares… let's make it unhospitable!! Visiting teams from 2 seasons ago said it was scary and got at them.

Bin the fair handshake before the game, let's snarl and bite like never before. Let everyone know on the TV audience, we are all in this together; every team watching will not want to come to Goodison.

Play with heart, pride and guts, let us supporters walk out of Goodison as hoarse as you have ever been.

COYB let's show them, we are not to be messed with!

Michael Connelly
578 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:04:30
I am convinced that this will be orchestrated along the lines of:

- Everton have clearly broken the rules;
- Clubs that have got relegated have complained;
- The Premier League have to be seen to be doing something to appease those clubs;
- The Premier League form an independent commission to make assessment and stipulate punishment;
- They go in hard with a 10-point penalty, knowing that the club will put in an appeal;
- Penalty gets reduced to 5 points on appeal knowing Everton will be happy with that result.
- 5 points will still be deemed to be a harsh punishment for the offence, which makes the Premier League look like it can keep its house in order.

The biggest problem for us will be the ongoing legal battles we will face by some of the clubs who got relegated over the last 2 seasons, which prospective owners may not want to go anywhere.

Kevin Molloy
579 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:04:48
My prediction is we will have a fast-tracked appeal and have this knocked in half or even suspended. On this issue, we have powerful friends.

Man City will have been gobsmacked by yesterday and the precedent it sets. I'm sure we will soon see the result of their ire. 'Maybe Everton were hard done by; yes, take off 5 and everyone goes home happy'.

Michael, I think the wording of the judgment yesterday was intended to preempt any claim like you outline, cos of the horrible can of worms it opens, they specifically say no sporting advantage was gained, I reckon that knackers any claim they have.

Brian Wilkinson
580 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:08:28
Everton have done everything and been open for the Premier League to look at the accounts, Everton have held their hands up and said "Here you go" and get punished with the most harsh punishment possible.

All this will do now is for other clubs not to come clean and work alongside the Premier League, they will do everything they can to hide any wrongdoings.

Yesterday, I said if we have been proved guilty, we deserve to be punished; however, now it has come to light that it is a non-sporting technicality over the new stadium, and even though Everton highlighted this, they agreed it was a non-sporting issue and that no sporting advantage was gained.

Yet they still refused to accept Everton's reasoning on this, the reasoning on losing sponsorship and naming rights, by doing the right thing, by immediately removing Russian links, when Ukraine was invaded, was dismissed.

Let us not forget years ago, people of Merseyside were up in arms with Liverpool City Council offering to part-fund the stadium, putting extra money on taxpayers of the region. The owner instead put his own money into starting the build of the new stadium, with the intention of bringing in private investors to help pay for the remainder. It seems now by doing this, this is the very thing that has put us over the threshold by £19.5M.

We were then forced to sell Richarlison for £20 Million less than what we were first offered, due to the Premier League insisting we had to sell on Deadline Day. Why has no one questioned how one of the Premier League lovies came in with a lower offer for the player, this at the time weakened a team out of the Top 6 and strengthened a team in the Top 6 elite, who gave Spurs the wink to go in with a lower offer.

I get not all will want to march down Goodison with placards and pitchforks and will instead accept the punishment. I agree that is your choice, but something stinks about this and supporters need to make their feelings known when we play Man Utd next week.

Okay, leave the pitchforks at home, but you know what I mean, we have to send out a message to the Premier League.

The Premier League is corrupt, banners have already been funded highlighting the corruption, with a very strong agreement from most Everton fans groups to boo the Premier League anthem against Man Utd on the handshakes, to completely drown out and show our disgust towards the Premier League.

Mike Gaynes
581 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:14:21
PT #490, Damn, man, sorry to hear that. Wishing your lady all the best. And hoping for a good result as you go through essentially the same process as the Premier League just did to Everton!

Christine #464, no problem, I was being facetious... I tapped out my budget on my trip over the pond 6 weeks ago. I do have a couple of torches that would go nicely with your pitchfork... let's ship them to Goodison!

Mark #549 and David #550, cheers on some helpful analysis. We still don't know what we don't know about the Premier League's decision process, but at least we have a clearer idea of the "basis" for their decision.

Jerome Shields
582 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:14:51
Mark #570,

The independent commission is not finished from what I can gather. They will hear submissions from other clubs that have been submitted before the 28-day deadline. They will then verify the validity of the claims and decide what compensation is due.

By submitting an appeal, Everton will delay this process. I doubt an appeal will be successful. If compensation is validated, it will be as a fine imposed on Everton by the Premier League, on top of the 10-point deduction.

Like all legal disputes, the settlement available will be determined by the money that Everton have available. The 10-point deduction is enough that Everton can survive in the Premier League and provide a chance that they can fund any fines. I would stick my neck out and say that a fine will not be imposed before Xmas and maybe at least the end of the season, with possible payment terms.

I still cannot believe the sanctions imposed. It is equivalent of an own-goal because the commission has gone for 100%. Everton's management of the narrative was poor and it looks as if their submissions were not up to much. This was previously pointed out by some very acute posters. How right they were. Maybe It was impossible to defend the indefensible.

It is safe to say that those representing Everton had no standing in the Premier League. Maybe Kenwright being ill was a crucial factor, in that those around him were not able to step up to the plate, after years of his style of management.

Barry Hesketh
583 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:17:10
Kevin @ 579,

I have just looked through the report again and the only party who were claiming 'no sporting advantage' was Everton. The rest of the document cites Sheffield Wednesday's hearing and how the Football League deemed any transgression to be treated as gaining a sporting advantage. If there is mention of what you said in this or in another report summary then please accept my apologies.

There is little doubt that the Premier League stitched Everton up and proceeded to copy and paste Football League definitions in order to ensure that Everton were sanctioned with a points deduction rather than a fine or a transfer embargo.

Stephen Jones
584 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:21:41
£19.5M is such a paltry amount for a Premier League club, so why didn't they employ a creative accountant to say defer 1 months salary for each player until the next financial year, or sell a few shares in the club and then buy them back?

It strikes me as very amateurish that the board did not come up with some sort of financial device to remove this relatively minor overspend.
Mark Taylor
585 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:25:25
Kevin @579,

Unfortunately I don't think the commission asserted that no sporting advantage had been gained. If you have found anything in the report that suggests otherwise, please let me know where it is.

Rob Halligan
586 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:25:54
Is anybody here going to Goodison on Tuesday night for the England U21 Euro qualifier v Northern Ireland?

I know U21 games are not usually shown on Sky or by the BBC, but this could be a game to show our disapproval at this punishment with a few flags and banners aimed at the Premier League, as surely Sky Sports News will show highlights.

Even some of those “Can I have your shirt” requests on a piece of cardboard, but saying “Fuck off Premier League, you corrupt bastards”, will set the ball rolling nicely for next Sunday.

There may well be a few bigwigs from the Premier League in attendance, and certainly from the FA. I know this has nothing to do with the FA, but they must have mates at the Premier League,

Ed Prytherch
587 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:26:25
Thanks, Ernie Baywood, for reading the report carefully and posting objectively. Everton used creative accounting and were caught. We can argue about the size of the penalty but not the guilt.

The Guardian reported this a couple of years ago:
Everton Football Club's auditor is considering walking away from its role signing off the club's accounts, raising questions over its financing and ownership, according to sources.

The Guardian understands that the accounting firm BDO has told Everton it will not be conducting the work, a decision which sources said was related to Farhad Moshiri's ownership of the Premier League team. The firm had audited the club's financial accounts for the previous two years, but the Merseyside club is now believed to be searching for a replacement.

Surely this was the canary in the coal mine.

I also remember reading posts on TW about a culture of fear at Everton FC where employees were afraid to voice concerns because of fear of reprisal. Lower level workers in the accounts dept may well have seen cooking of the books but knew that it was in their best interest to keep quiet. That culture starts at the top.

Thankfully all but one of them are no longer involved with Everton FC and the last one should be gone soon. There should be much less temptation to try accounting tricks if the club is run to make a profit.

Andy Meighan
588 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:27:32
Anyone displaying that sort of language on a placard or a banner will be immediately arrested.

Let's not forget – this is Everton – not Man City or Chelsea.

Jerome Shields
589 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:30:25
Ed #587,

The Auditor resigning and the replacement Auditor's Report was the final trigger.

Paul Tran
591 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:38:13
Stephen #584,

It strikes me as amateurish that our 'directors' were unable to stay within the financial limits, while forgetting to buy players who can score goals and leaving us with a 'non-existent' midfield.

Brian Wilkinson
592 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:39:01
I think we missed a trick not going into administration, having all our debts cleared, then putting the shares up for peanuts.

777 Partners could then come in and purchase Everton, we would have got a point-less deduction and started again from scratch, but in a much stronger position.

Kevin Molloy
593 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:40:45
Barry, Mark,

Yes I've been going off Alan Myers (stupid me). They have said that there was no intention to gain a sporting advantage. Not quite the same thing!

John Downey
594 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:41:12
This action by the Premier League should unite us fans as never before, fully expecting the intimidation level at future games to make the Bayern game seem like a Sunday afternoon tea party.

Fully expect that, come next Sunday, Sean Dyche's biggest problem will be ensuring that his fired-up players don't get any silly bookings that could lead to player suspensions later in the season.

Also thinking about any banners for future televised matches, they should be factually based to maximise Premier League embarrassment:

Administration nine points, Overspending 10 points
Murdering regime, fit and proper owners - overspending on players, 10 points etc.
Everton and its supporters forever.

Mark Taylor
595 Posted 18/11/2023 at 15:47:09
Hi Jerome @582,

I confess I am not all that familiar with the processes here and hopefully others may be able to chip in.

I think you are right that the application by the affected clubs (and I gather we are now down to 3) will be heard not in a court of law but by the commission.

I'm not sure you are correct that it can only result in a fine payable to the Premier League, unless they are merely acting as collecting agent for the affected clubs. I think the issue of compensation is very much on the table.

Nor do I think that will rely entirely or even mostly on our notional capacity to pay. It will be for the affected clubs to demonstrate loss. That won't be all that easy, hence I wonder if it will be like the West Ham case, and settled outside.

I am encouraged that 777 Partners appear to have included a compensation clause in the sale agreement, meaning they may feel comfortable in continuing to fund our month-to-month working capital (assuming they have the funds to so do), without which we are in administration.

I am somewhat concerned about the extent the owner will be allowed input on any settlement. To an extent, provided the compensation cover is adequate, 777 Partners won't care so much, but Moshiri will.

That is especially so if we transact before the compensation hearing. On the other hand, if transaction has to be delayed until after the hearing, I fear 777 Partners may be unwilling to last the course.

It is my understanding that the £55M or so they have allegedly already put into the club may not be first in line for repayment in the event of administration, so presumably 777 Partners would want to avoid that process. Either way, I'm not sure this will all play out as simply as we might wish.

I agree, our case was poorly presented, and quite possibly just plain poor. The findings were far more negative than I thought they would be. We did not come across in a good light at all, some of the evidence bordered on desperate.

Nor did Kenwright's absence help, or indeed the former CEO and CFO not giving evidence. I imagine Man City's defence might be a bit more robust and professionally organised!

Jeff Armstrong
596 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:02:48
The commission reckoned we lied about selling Player Y to help balance the books because we later offered him a new contract.

That is exactly what all clubs do to protect the asset from going on the cheap, it means the club will get the best price for the player, doesn't mean we don't want to sell.

Mal van Schaick
597 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:03:44
What I meant to say is that the judgment against us should be set aside, until such times that other alleged transgressors have judgments made against them. ie, Man City and Chelsea.

Then at least a legal precedent has been set that can be judged as being fair and non-discriminatory.

Mark Murphy
598 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:22:36
It's us versus the Premier League, Sky, the “Big 6”, the never won fuck all jealous little cunts, the koppites, the refs, the linos, the corrupt VAR fiddlers, the horse punchers, the media, the no history Johnny-come-lately fashionable clubs, the fucking koppites, the pundits and the rich fat cats who can't do their fucking sums and leave us in the shit then accuse us of driving them out!

Fuck them all! Koppites are gobshites and the rest as well! Up The Fcuking Toffees!

John Wilson
599 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:30:10
John Blane of Toffee TV also said of the commissioner's decision, there was no reasons provided and, though a precedent, it has not relied on case law that judges would normally do.

It transpires also, that the commission was assembled before the punishment was chosen, ergo the Premier League knew it was going after Everton.

Then, when the commission was installed, the verdict was a 10-point deduction, and apparently it was not a sporting advantage. This could open up a judicial review as the punishment is obviously disproportionate.

The Tribunal for European Law (still applicable) was not constituted by an independent panel and exceeds power: ultra vires and case precedent is Wednesbury Unreasonable.

Peter Warren
600 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:36:24
EFC's statement shows how pathetically run we are. Who cares about Man City and Chelsea, get your own house in order.

They broke the rules, lied and denied and got found out and face a massive penalty. Yes, it is totally excessive and unreasonable but the Premier League looking after themselves to try and stave off regulatory action, just like other clubs look after themselves.

Stand up, face it, move on and get on with it – conduct yourselves with class and behind closed doors, not statements saying "Oh it's not fair", and crying about Man City and Chelsea. Pathetic. It's tough at the top and our club is the worst-run club in the Premier League.

Kim Vivian
601 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:38:13
Jonathan @577.

I wouldn't bin the pre-match handshake, accompany it with a steely eyeball, but I would definitely cut out the pre-match tunnel banter and friendly laughter...

Mr Pickford, please take note.

Mark P Hughes
602 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:42:59
These are the 5 with key involvement in our 10-Point Deduction.

David Phillips KC – Wilberforce Chambers
Nick Igoe – Accountant
Alan Eliezer Greenwood – Judge
Angus Kinnear – Leeds CEO
Alan Pace – Burnley Chairman

Mike Gaynes
603 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:45:04
Don't know if anybody else caught this (and slightly off-topic), but last week 777 Partners got four fraud charges dismissed, and three other charges partly dismissed, in a lawsuit against them over the 2018 acquisition of a jet leasing business. The Delaware court ruled there was no evidence of fraud.

The lawsuit will still go forward over two remaining charges that 777 violated a good faith covenant and breached fiduciary duties.

Also last week, 777's Bermuda-based life and annuity reinsurance subsidiary had its credit rating downgraded from "excellent" to "fair" by AM Best. The credit rating agency cited a higher-risk balance sheet for the reinsurer, partly because 777 Partners LLC has not provided audited financial statements for 2 years.

Ray Roche
604 Posted 18/11/2023 at 16:52:38
Mark @602,

So, two of the panel have close associations with two of the clubs who are considering suing us? How can that happen???

Barry Rathbone
605 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:01:37
Just read a further 9-point deduction is on the cards and £300 million in compensation to be paid if clubs suing us for cheating are successful in their cases.

Won't be any club left soon.

Brent Stephens
606 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:01:39
No Ray, that's a wind-up. surely? The first three are the only ones referred to in the report. I stand to be corrected!
Barry Hesketh
607 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:02:40
Mark @602,

I believed that those clubs who are planning to sue, couldn't be involved in the commissions process?

What part did the Burnley Chairman and the Leeds CEO play? Where is this information published?

Brendan McLaughlin
608 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:05:42
Jerome #589,

"The Auditor resigning and the replacement Auditor's Report was the final trigger."

So much so that it was not mentioned once in the commission's 40-odd page report.

Barry Hesketh
609 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:08:34
Barry @605,

I assume the 9-point penalty threat would be due to Everton going into administration, caused in large part by those clubs being awarded compensation?

Although I've read that 777 Partners have factored this scenario into their purchase price. Apparently 777 Partners are already on the hook for circa £80M which could rise to circa £100M, to keep Everton afloat, by the time they get approval, if indeed they do.

Jerome Shields
610 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:11:20
Brendan #608,

Only the commission findings would be in the report, Brendan.

The Auditor's Report, like all auditor reports, was qualified by various conditions and would be orientated to avoid being a professional witness. But it would have still been taken note of.

Ray Roche
611 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:15:09
Brent, I was just responding to the post @602 from Mark.
Paul Hewitt
612 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:16:56
How can Leeds sue us? Even with a 10-point deduction last season, they still would have gone down.

The infringement was for season 21-22. I think only the team that finished 3rd bottom that season should be allowed to claim compensation.

We didn't break any rules last season. So Southampton, Leeds and Leicester can do one.

Brent Stephens
613 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:19:35
Ray - yes, I know. I was questioning Mark, as you were also.

Bit of a poo show, isn't it.

Pete Neilson
614 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:21:55
Even more galling if Leicester City is one of the clubs considering action.

The club that only got promoted to the Premier League in 2014 through financial doping, eventually found guilty in 2018 and fined all of £3.1M.

The game is rotten to the core.

Brendan McLaughlin
615 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:22:58
Jerome #610,

So you're seriously suggesting the independent commission were influenced by evidence not presented or referred to in their report???

I mean the independent commission is effectively a quasi-court whose decision could be subject to legal challenge and they, according to you, are partly relying on evidence that was not put before them.

That simply wouldn't happen.

Barry Hesketh
616 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:27:12
Paul @612,

I don't think it's as simple as deducing where each team would have finished in the league during a particular season, it's more about whether Everton's actions gave them a competitive advantage over those clubs, as Dave Powell highlights in his report.

Everton have announced an intention to appeal that verdict. The decision has kicked open the door to potential compensation claims to be made by four clubs; Burnley, Leeds United, Leicester City and Southampton. The clubs will need to successfully argue causation, that the steps taken by Everton provided them with a competitive advantage that helped them retain their lucrative top-flight status at the expense of relegated clubs. —Source: Liverpool Echo

James Hughes
617 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:29:28
Barry, as we spent nothing in the January window, those clubs who went down will have a big ask.
Barry Hesketh
618 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:32:35
James @617,

I agree, I think it would be very difficult to prove that Everton's actions gave our club an unfair advantage over other teams in and around us.

But given few believed we could be docked points, never mind quite so many points, it's difficult to rule out any scenario, no matter how outlandish it appears.

Paul Ferry
619 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:33:35
Correct me if I'm wrong, I've only just got up and I've still got sleep in my eyes, but didn't the report state that we got no football/on-the-pitch advantage from our crime and that had never been the intention?
Jerome Shields
620 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:34:58
Mark #595,

I put forward the scenario of a fine, but of course the money would go to the clubs involved. I could be wrong, but I can't see the Premier League wanting clubs to sue via the courts, tearing the Premier League apart.

As you say, it will be some type of in-house process, likely undisclosed, like the West Ham situation. But there will be a determination that Everton should pay on top of their points deduction, such has been the momentum of the surprise severity of the decision already made public..

Buyers of Everton – not just 777 Partner – will continue as normal and I think you are correct that Moshiri will pay for his failings.

I agree that there will be twists and turns.

Ray Roche
621 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:36:23
Brent, the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

I'm more disillusioned with football now than I've ever been. I have always thought that there is a degree of corruption in football but more from a bias point of view, and consciously or unconsciously from referees. But this is a different level.

And from Boris Johnson giving the Saudis a quiet nod that there will be no obstacle in the way of the purchase of the Skunks due to arms deals between the two countries. Sick of it.

Paul Ferry
622 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:47:16
Jerome (and Mark), it will most certainly be an in-house process, as that is what is stated in PL rules. Mind you, as Rishi Sunak is currently showing us, it's dead easy to rip rule books up and start all over again from scratch.

Phew, lucky for us that the fellas at North Wharf Road are so well known for being fair-minded, sticking to the rules, and handling everything and everyone equally.

Pete Neilson
623 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:47:43
Maybe Richard Masters and his Premier League pals will now consider doing away with 3 points for a win.

Instead, each game to be considered retrospectively by a panel of experts and points awarded on a scale that is considered reasonable by them alone and based on criteria that haven't been published.

It's a logical conclusion to their behaviour.

Brent Stephens
624 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:50:44
Ray, this is all bringing together the Everton fan base, with excited anticipation of what the fans will now do (up in arms; fuck the Premier League; fuck the rest of the Premier League clubs; close ranks; march on Goodison; intimidate the opposition; Goodison a cauldron of seething support, contempt and resistance). It will feel like a cauldron next week at Goodison Park – but to what effect? For how long?

And what I don't know is how many players have contracts which allow release from contract in the case of relegation. Most, I would guess??

Barry Hesketh
625 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:50:58
Paul @ 619, A few snippets from the report:

104. At one level, disregard of the potential PSR difficulties can be said to increase Everton's culpability. But the Commission considers that there is a danger of double counting. We have already made clear that our approach is to start by considering the extent by which the PSR threshold has been exceeded: the greater the excess, the greater the culpability. We do not consider that the reasons for the PSR breach should aggravate that culpability unless they can be said to constitute exceptional conduct. For example, a deliberate cynical breach of the PSR to achieve a sporting advantage might increase culpability beyond that already arrived at by the extent of the breach.

We do not think that this is such a case. Everton may have taken unwise risks, but it did so in the mistaken belief that it would achieve PSR compliance: it is not a case of a deliberate breach.


NATURE OF SANCTION
133. The Premier League submits that the only proper sanction is a sporting sanction in the form of a deduction of points. It argues that only a points deduction will meet the requirements of the principles that we have discussed above. The Premier League relies on the decision in Sheffield Wednesday FC v The Football League Ltd: a sporting advantage is to be inferred so that anything other than a points deduction would be simply inappropriate.

134. Everton disagrees. It submits that a financial penalty would meet the justice of the case. If some form of sporting sanction is required, the Commission should consider imposing a transfer ban.

135. We have no doubt that the circumstances of this case are such that only a sporting sanction in the form of a points deduction would be appropriate. A financial penalty for a club that enjoys the support of a wealthy owner is not a sufficient penalty. We agree with the Premier League that the requirements of punishment, deterrence, vindication of compliant clubs, and the protection of the integrity of the sport demand a sporting sanction in the form of a points deduction. The issue is not the form of sanction, but its extent.

Graham Mockford
626 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:52:11
Barry's 605 & 607,

I'm not a lawyer but, even if other teams could prove a case, the chances of any legal action coming to fruition in this season is very unlikely.

The £300M and 9 points is media bollocks.

Ian Pilkington
627 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:54:10
Chris Bascombe penned an article in today's Telegraph Sport entitled “Moshiri the arsonist who burned £700M”.

The entire blame for the fiasco was heaped on Moshiri without a single mention of Kenwright.

It is well known that Bascombe is a lifelong Red, indeed he penned a glowing eulogy of the late chairman a few weeks ago, so I suppose the above omission was only to be expected.

Jason Li
628 Posted 18/11/2023 at 17:59:57
My gripe is, thinking about this without knowing all the details, how will other Premier League clubs avoid failing the financial rules when their ground is not fit for purpose and they have to finance a new ground or a major rebuild of the majority of their ground?

Any Premier League ground in the future with a capacity 50,000+ will cost at least a billion. Most clubs will fail the rules. Surely the law has not foreseen that it will unwittingly have to punish almost every Premier League club when the day arrives that their current ground is not fit for purpose as a going concern in its current state?

Nick White
629 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:00:23
Once the dust settles and maybe the points deduction is reduced, the Big 6 get off scot-free. The other clubs fail or maybe prevail in their lawsuits...

Isn't the whole thing just a complete nonsense and irretrievable from here on out? Time for a full reset and get the game back for the fans.

Barry Hesketh
630 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:04:16
Graham @626,

You might well be correct, it might not happen this season, if at all. We'll find out in a month or so's time when we'll know whether any or all of the aggrieved clubs decide to proceed with their claims for compensation.

If those clubs do proceed, a date will be set and we'll have to wait to hear what the commission decides. I would imagine should a hearing be required it will be done sooner rather than later, and therefore it might just be fast-tracked before the end of this season.

David West
631 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:10:08
Barry @625.

It seems it was a gamble that didn't pay off. We knew what would happen if the gamble didn't pay off, but they chose to roll the dice and stake our Premier League status on that gamble.

It's incompetence at the highest level of the club. People can say what they want about the punishment fitting the crime, but the fact that we are being docked points over a £19.5M shortfall is ridiculous.

After sailing close to the line with the Covid write-offs, to give them this chance to punish us, they are all culprits.

The line about not gaining sporting advantage makes me laugh, why have we done this if there is no sporting advantage?

It also points to Man City and Chelsea, these have broken the rules to gain advantage, to win Premier League trophies, Champions Leagues… even the treble!!!!

No punishment they can give Man City will ever put them back to where the club was before the rule breaks, a relagation would be a minor blip, a £100M, £200M fine?? Peanuts to the Abu Dhabi lot!!!

We are being used to see the tone and arguments for the others!!

John Boswell
633 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:11:43
I note what Barry @625 says regarding the view of the Premier League that only a points deduction will satisfy as a valid sanction for a club with a wealthy owner that exceeds FFP.

I call the Premier League out as grubby hypocrites because they took a very different view of the Shady Six who held secret talks with other European clubs regarding the formation of a Super League. In that instance, a small fine of a few millions each was set down and later put aside.

I could go on but it is clear that many have already done so on this thread. I firmly believe that Mr Dyche has already formed a tough mental attitude among the group; we will be fine.

COYB

Barry Rathbone
634 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:28:19
We are the sprat to catch the mackerel.

I don't think the powers that be have given the Moshiri - Usmanov disaster much thought beyond "Yep, Everton are bang to rights, deduct points and lay the groundwork for the big fish".

If genuinely attempting to excise the financial cancer killing the game, they should be applauded — no matter the cost to us.

Liam Heffernan
635 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:29:11
This independent commission seemed pretty loaded to me. Leeds Utd chairman, Burnley owner and West Ham guy who illegally brought Teves to the Premier League.

On what planet can these guys be impartial and independent?

Brent Stephens
636 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:33:04
Liam, what is your source for repeating the above claim that Leeds and Burnley (and now West Ham!) had people on the Commission?

I'm curious.

Matt Byrne
637 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:35:20
We need a chant of 'The Premier League's corrupt.'

Now ladies and gents can someone think of a good tune?

Leeds had one about the Football League being corrupt to the tune of "And now you'd better believe us...the Football League's corrupt." Maybe that one?

Over to you. Make this happen v Man Utd with a global TV audience.

Graham Mockford
638 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:37:48
Barry @630,

We are talking about a major case. There is no way that could be dealt with in 6 months and, even if it could, it would be appealed.

Trust me, this ain't happening before the end of this season.

Barry Hesketh
639 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:47:32
Nick Igoe – Accountant was indeed West Ham's financial director at the the time of the Tevez scandal. Nick Igoe is a Chartered Accountant with 32 years' post qualification experience including 27 years as finance director. Between 1997 and 2012 Nick was West Ham United's Finance Director.

I don't know where the other two names come from, aside from it may have been them who requested action to be taken by the Premier League on behalf of their clubs.

Stephen Colby
640 Posted 18/11/2023 at 18:53:02
If we overspent £19.5M and we are sued will the amount we have to pay out be deducted from our shortfall?
Dale Rose
641 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:03:12
My initial reaction to this was to hurl abuse at the FA. However, upon thinking about it, Man City could be our saviours here.

The FA will do what the government says, and to be honest the government will be wholly behind the Saudis and won't want to piss them off. Man City will be safe.

The appeal will result in the 10 points being suspended for a couple of years. I could be wrong.

Andy Crooks
642 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:03:40
In the absence of cool informed analysis, which I hope some of the talented and informed contributors are already working on, may I offer my reasoned view on the issue:

The Premier League are a pack of corrupt cunts.

Neil Blaney
643 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:06:22
The club prior to the hearing changed its earlier position and accepted PRS had been breached but saying the excess was just over £9M rather than the £19.5M being argued by the Premier League.

All the arguments at the hearing re interest on the stadium, Covid transfer values, Ukraine war sanctions, the Sigurdsson matter etc were with a view to the commission a) accepting our lower figure – they didn't – and b) mitigating the inevitable penalty – that didn't go too well either.

It follows that any appeal can only be against the severity of the punishment. Thus any of the five clubs who wanted to get involved in our hearing can now apply to the commission (within 28 days) to confirm they are looking for compensation.

The commission will then hear any such clubs (and Everton) and make a decision as to whether any of those compensation claims are good. If they decide they are valid, then the commission will award what compensation for such loss as has been decided and Everton FC Co Ltd will have to pony up.

On the question of whether we gained an unfair advantage, the report only absolves us from seeking to deliberately do so. It's clear to me that their view is that any breach of PRS confers an advantage. Thus any hearing will focus solely on whether those clubs can demonstrate a loss due to our breach.

That's my reading of it, for what it's worth.

Neil Tyrrell
644 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:06:37
Barry @634

That's a big "if" in your last paragraph, but I do hope it's the case. Chelsea might get deducted enough to end up 20th if so.

Hard to imagine anyone looking at our mostly disastrous transfer dealings and concluding that we gained an advantage from them.

Dave Cashen
645 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:14:09
Graham,

So what happens if we get to the end of the season safe and they decide to reduce the penalty by 4 points. Do we start next season 4 points ahead?

Seriously. We need to forget about this penalty being reduced.

We also need to forget about Man City and Chelsea being hammered. Expulsion from a league they are already desperate to break away from hardly constitutes a deterrent to any of the wannabe super leaguers.

Be angry by all means, but don't expect fairness and justice. It ain't happening.

If Dyche and his team are to get any justice, they are going to have to extract it themselves, on the pitch against the so-called big clubs. We will play a major part in that.

Peter Moore
646 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:14:21
Andy, That succinctly sums it up I believe.

There are highly paid accountants and lawyers that dress things up to make black appear white. There were unforeseeable reasons that contributed to our financial transgressions:

1) A global pandemic.
2) Putin doing a Hitler impression, putting our major sponsor on the UK government sanction hit list!

Both unforeseeable, both screwd us over financially.

The 10 points is not going to send us down, unless the wheels come off the Dyche-Meister's steam train.

I worry about the takeover though by 777 Partners. If it falls over or they lead us into administration after taking over, the going into administration is automatically another 9 points deducted! We need that like a hole in the head.

It would be just our luck to fight off this shafting and climb clear of the shit again, to then have administration and be plunged back into the relegation mire.

If we have recovered with a good points cushion before that though, we could still stay up, I believe. But it is certainly all feet to the pump – to stretch a metaphor. UTFT.

Paul Ferry
647 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:17:39
Ged Simpson has been roused from his ToffeeWeb slumber! Welcome back squire!

Paul (Tran), all the very best wishes for you and yours mate.

Peter Mills
648 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:29:43
I had to seek some theological advice today:- “Is it a sin to swear whilst carrying a coffin into a consecrated graveyard?” The answer was a generous “Under the circumstances, no”.

The news came through as we were carrying my brother into the cemetery. There had already been some mutterings from fellow bearers about the weight of the load, then came “Fuck, the bastards have hit us for 10 points”. I felt Charlie shift a little, he wasn't happy!

There was much subsequent discussion (correct, to my mind) about the injustice of the punishment. I had the opportunity during the funeral reception to chat with people from Everton in the Community, about the life-changing work they carry out, it was humbling.

We are a proper football club that has been run by idiots for too long. We, the supporters, the core of the club, will ensure we survive this.

Brendan McLaughlin
649 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:31:13
Prior to the judgement being announced, we had many ToffeeWebbers opining with absolutely no basis in fact that our punishment wouldn't be that bad... suspended points deduction or a hefty fine or a transfer embargo.

Didn't turn out that way.

Now we've people similarly suggesting that our punishment will be reduced on appeal or that we can't be sued by those clubs who feel they suffered detriment as a result of Everton's indiscretions.

Let's hope these posters are indeed correct.

Graham Mockford
650 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:31:17
Dave @645,

I think you might be missing my point. I'm talking about any claim made by any other Premier League teams.

Any appeal will be heard this season.

Ray Robinson
651 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:33:31
Just wondering …. If Liverpool lose the title by one or two points this season, will they consider seeking compensation from the Premier League for its cockup during the VAR review?
Dave Cashen
652 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:43:35
Perhaps I worded it poorly, Graham.

I was not opposing your point. I was agreeing with it.

Paul Hewitt
653 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:45:34
We should have just put ourselves into administration. Taken the 9-point deduction, we then could have had our debts written off, and we couldn't get sued.

But no we tried to do the right thing.

Bill Gall
654 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:50:25
After reading the comments and mine were on a previous thread, there are two phrases I would like the club to follow{
"When the going gets tough, the tough get going" and "Action speaks louder than words". There is no need to talk to supporters as this has already started.

I am afraid the FA – and that stands for Fucking Arseholes –have picked on the wrong set of supporters, as without supporters, there is no club, so it is them who are getting punished for incompetent people.

Goodison Park over the last few years has gone from a fortress and a ground other teams did not look forward to coming to, to a place teams expected a result.

Not any more, blame who sat on that committee for lighting the fuse that visiting teams are not going to be happy playing at Goodison Park, as I believe this decision will galvanize both supporters and team.

Off for another walk in the rain to try and cool down.

Colin Glassar
655 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:52:44
Pat #504, jailed more like it.
Gavin Johnson
656 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:52:57
Why are some people taking heed of this nonsense about being sued? The findings from the investigation clearly state that Everton had no sporting advantage over the 3 clubs.

I can understand the 3 clubs having a problem with the delay in the hearing, in which case they sue the Premier League.

This story was started by Matt Hughes of the Daily Mail and he has been regurgitating it ever since. He clearly hates us and I would spark the guy out if I met him. I have never held such contempt for a so-called journalist.

Brendan McLaughlin
657 Posted 18/11/2023 at 19:53:33
Peter #646,

Unfortunately just because something is "unforeseeable" doesn't mean it is P&S "deductible".

What irks me is that, despite Everton allegedly keeping the Premier League fully informed... we didn't run the P&S deductions we were intending to make past the Premier League to make sure they were allowable.

Brendan McLaughlin
658 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:00:55
Gavin #656

"The findings from the investigation clearly state that Everton had no sporting advantage over the 3 clubs."

See Neil #643... final paragraph.

Christine Foster
659 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:04:39
I think the judgement was vindictive. The alleged breach was a financial / technical one based on the incompetence of our own financial manager. No dishonesty was intended in the commission's view, nor was any sporting advantage gained as a result, also in their view.

It did not lead to any sporting advantage, any unfair league placing, or any trophy, in fact attempted compliance damaged the sporting ability of the club significantly with players sold for what we could get in an attempt to comply.

A points deduction is vindictive as no sporting advantage was gained or attempted to be gained. The commission found that the management was solely to blame for the inability to comply, not the players or the fans.

By penalizing the club 10 points, they have both financially reduced by exactly £20M in expected income due to league placings, and further damaged the sporting ability of the club with the greater threat of relegation.

The damage publicly to the worldwide standing of the club is immeasurable both in terms of future sponsorship, attraction of future players, and our ability to succeed. All because of a £19.5M shortfall our former CEO and finance director did not deem worthy of contesting at the commission.

We made a mistake, we owned up to it at the hearing with mitigating circumstances, no deception, no unfair advantage.

So, why then are we prosecuted in such a way? Why would the Premier League be so determined to make an example of us that is so disproportionate to the offense other than their own vindictiveness?

This was not a trial, it was neither independent nor fair in its make-up or its intent, it was totally subjective in approach, without precedent and not impartial. It was a pseudo-prosecution designed to ensure its outcome was exactly what was intended. That Everton FC be found guilty and without precedent once again.

The people who could and should have been responsible for the breach, its ownership and board, are not subject to any sanction. But the operational players, staff and most importantly, the fans, are alone sanctioned.

If that's not vindictive, I don't know what is. This is about hurting the club and fans as much as possible because we have a wealthy owner.

That's why the Premier League is corrupt. This decision is not about fairness, it's about threat. Threat of losing power to a regulator.

Barry Hesketh
660 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:09:09
Gavin @ 656,

I know what you write has been reported all over the place, but I have searched and searched the report and there's nothing that says "No sporting advantage" was made, due to Everton's actions.

On the contrary, the commission automatically assumed, that the gaining of a sporting advantage was implied by the fact that Everton broke the rules, even if they didn't – whilst breaking the rules – actively seek to gain that sporting advantage.

The Premier League relies on the decision in Sheffield Wednesday FC v The Football League Ltd: a sporting advantage is to be inferred so that anything other than a points deduction would be simply inappropriate.

Gavin Johnson
661 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:12:37
Brendan #658.

I realise It's open to interpretation but it actually stated in the report that there was no sporting advantage in the findings.

I'm no expert in law but it seems highly unlikely to me that the said clubs have a case, when the independent commission have stated that the issue was centred around the stadium build, over-projected league finishes, and us not suing Sigurdsson for breach of contract, leaving a shortfall.

Brendan McLaughlin
662 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:15:53
Christine #559,

"nor was any sporting advantage gained as a result, also in their view."

See Neil #643 (final paragraph) & Barry #660

Ernie Baywood
663 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:16:35
By the way, they did make allowances for COVID. We lost £378M in total. After COVID and other allowable exclusions, we got it down to £124.5M. The things that have been considered appropriate have been factored in – to a very hefty total of £250M.

Outside of things... your dodgy investor goes down? That's business. Surround yourself with more reliable people.

And can we stop repeating the stadium costs argument? They have allowed all stadium costs and excluded them. It's Everton who tried to disingenuously add operational costs (interest on loans to meet club working capital) to that list. The purpose of those loans is 100% clear – the commission even reproduced the wording in their report.

You know what, screw the P&S and the points deduction. These morons gambled with the future of our club in an amateurish and completely reckless way. Then they tried to concoct a story to get away with it. One that doesn't pass any kind of pub test.

We should be thankful that the Premier League set some kind of limit, because the way Moshiri, our Chairman and our CEO were going... there might not have been a club left.

Kevin Palmer
664 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:19:47
Our breaches were real, and honestly do deserve sanction.

But 10 points for less than £20 million over the allowed losses (literally half of Sigurdsson's – excuse me, Player X's - transfer fee) does appear harsh.

With this as precedent, I look forward to Man City's and Chelsea's imminent relegation to the National League and all that silverware being stripped.

Even if some goes to LFC!

Brendan McLaughlin
665 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:21:44
Gavin #661

Are Neil #643 & Barry #660 wrong?

Do me a favour and quote the piece in the report you're referring to...cos I can't find it.

And it would help an elderly Evertonian sleep better!

Paul Ferry
666 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:23:20
Great post Peter M (648).

I know that the Everton news would have knocked you sideways but I do hope that putting Charlie to rest helped you a little in your loss. I bet Saint Pete's and Paul's was packed!

Ernie Baywood
667 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:23:30
As for the argument about 'sporting advantage' or whether we acted 'dishonestly' it's all irrelevant.

They're avoiding calling us cheats outright. Accusing us of deliberately cheating would be a very big statement. It's one they've decided not to make, because it could simply be absolute incompetence. They can't know the intention, they just have the facts.

But the wording throughout the report is very clear. We did very risky and stupid things, we were very creative with how we accounted for those things in P&S reporting. We did think we could get back within the rules (just) but had some bad luck, but that bad luck was typical of a football club.

They were supposed to be protecting our football club as custodians. They weren't. They took the kind of chances that could have ended us.

Neil Tyrrell
668 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:29:44
Peter 648, condolences on the loss of your brother. Mine died nearly 10 years ago at 48 and I miss him every day.

Recently I got to spend the day with his eldest (who I don't see very often, living on different continents), we attended the victory at West Ham and it turned into quite an emotional day for me.

May memories of Charlie be a blessing to you. 💙

Ernie Baywood
669 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:33:56
Rob 551, clearly Leicester were the major architects of their own downfall. Yes, if Maddison could score a penalty then they might be safe. Mind you, if we'd cashed in on an asset rather than try to fudge the books, maybe Jordan Pickford wouldn't have been there to save it?

Your Richarlison example is perfect for explaining why the Commission didn't allow us to claim every possible bit of bad luck. We got £60M for him instead of £80M+ precisely because we are a poorly run club conducting a fire sale just to keep the lights on. That's not bad luck, that's dreadful management. It's entirely an internal issue that means we get screwed over by better-run clubs.

Brent Stephens
670 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:34:28
Ernie #663,

"We should be thankful that the Premier League set some kind of limit, because the way Moshiri, our Chairman and our CEO were going... there might not have been a club left."

Ernie, don't paras 84-90 say that while the Premier League proposed a penalty limit (12-point penalty), this was set aside by the commission, who in para 90 conclude by declining the Premier League's formula and say they will determine the appropriate sanction?

Or do I misunderstand this? Or misunderstand your point?

Paul Hewitt
671 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:36:18
The Premier League should simply say any club that sues Everton won't be allowed to play in the Premier League.
Brendan McLaughlin
672 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:38:21
Brent #670,

I think Ernie is referring to the P&S loss limit.

Rob Halligan
673 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:40:24
Simon Jordan, the ex-Crystal Palace chairman, and now TalkSport host, seems pretty adamant that this deduction will be reduced following appeal, possibly as low as 3points. Can't find where I read it, but let's hope he's right. 🤞🤞🤞
Gavin Johnson
674 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:43:56
Brendan, its their interpretation which they're entitled to.

It came up on the Toffee TV report yesterday on the back of the announcement that the independent commission found that there was no attempt at making a sporting advantage, and it was to do with the stadium.

They had John on the show who's worked in big business for years and small Everton shareholder. If he says those were the findings in the 41-page report, then I believe him.

I'm certainly more inclined to believe well-presented facts and logic over the nasty campaign of Matt Hughes and the Daily Mail.

Brendan McLaughlin
675 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:44:23
On a lighter note... surely this is the moment for Eugene Ruane to return with a fly-on-the-wall piece of what was actually said at the Independent Commission hearing.

No pressure, Eugene... hope all is well with you,

Brent Stephens
676 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:48:37
Thanks, Brendan. Apologies Ernie.
Si Cooper
677 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:49:04
Danny:

“150 defeated 3,000. We can do this Everton. Siege mentality but we will do this.”

If you are referring to the battle I think you are, my understanding was that the 150 didn't actually defeat the 3,000 and the siege may have even been curtailed to honour the bravery of the besieged.

I doubt the Premier League understands ‘honour' in the same way and fear they could easily destroy our club in their drive to avoid exterior regulation.

That's why I'm annoyed with anyone saying what happens to Man City and Chelsea is immaterial; to me, any delay to hearing their cases and setting their punishment threatens any likelihood our punishment will ever be proportionate.

We've seen it before, where we get the early punishment and then it's watered down or binned for any that come after.

This isn't the same as Niasse getting slammed for successfully deceiving an official, the club could afford that punishment. The club simply may not survive if this 10-point deduction sees us relegated and then pursued for compensation by those clubs who can claim our survival over the two previous seasons saw them relegated.

Deferred justice for Man City and Chelsea should mean deferred justice for us as well.

Frank Kearns
678 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:50:38
I’d like to hear an explanation of how financial mismanagement caused other clubs to lose games and get relegated.
Brian Wilkinson
679 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:51:16
Matt Byrne @637,

I'm no Lennon or McCartney but will give it a crack, may need a bit of tweaking.

I give you a scaffold double bill, first to the tune of Lily the Pink:

The league's corrupt, corrupt, corrupt
The league is corrupt, corrupt, corrupt
You can stick your 10 points up your arse
You'll soon be crying
When we start flying
Moving up the Premier League

If we beat Man Utd, we can round it of with

Thank you very much for the 3 points, Man U
Thank you very much, thank you very, very, very much.

I will get my coat and leave it to the experts to knock a tune up.

Rob Halligan
680 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:53:28
The fund raising by The 1878's - Atmosphere fund, is close to touching £30k. That's an incredible amount raised in just over 24 hours.

The fund raising is to go towards making banners and flags for the game next Sunday. Going to be some serious wording on those flags and banners, all directed towards the Premier League.

The atmosphere next Sunday could possibly eclipse that of the Palace game two seasons ago, and Bournemouth last season.

Brendan McLaughlin
681 Posted 18/11/2023 at 20:55:05
Gavin #674

From the Report which you didn't/couldn't quote:

"Further, as was recognised in Sheffield Wednesday FC v The Football League Ltd a breach of the PSR will confer a sporting advantage on the defaulting club, to the detriment of competing clubs who have managed their finances more responsibly"

How's that for "well-presented facts"

ps: Seriously no malice intended... just flagging stuff up to a fellow ToffeeWebber... hope you take it in that spirit.

Rob Halligan
682 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:04:40
Frank # 678…

What they're saying is that, had we been deducted points last season, then we probably would have gone down, meaning one of them would have stayed up, probably Leicester.

The fact that they, along with Leeds and Southampton, were the three worst teams in the league means bugger all to them.

Did our financial mismanagement make James Maddison fuck up his penalty against us, which, had he scored, would have made it very difficult for us to get anything out of that game.

Leicester probably would have gone on and won that game, meaning a 3-point swing in their favour, and ultimately survival for them.

Paul Tran
683 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:05:09
Mike G and Paul F, thanks for your kind wishes.

Mike, when the good Doctor sticks his finger up there on Friday, I'll reflect on Everton doing the same thing to me for most of my 59 years.

We'll know in a couple of weeks if my wife needs surgery.

Brendan McLaughlin
684 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:10:51
Paul #683,

Hope all goes well for you and your wife...

I will say a prayer for you both tomorrow at mass.

Derek Knox
685 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:16:03
Brian @ 679, good effort mate and I know your sentiments are there like all of us, but stick to your Male Modelling Job.

For John Deere Tractors :-)

Fingers crossed, Paul Tran, for you and your wife, mate!

Paul Tran
686 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:16:08
Cheers Brendan, that's much appreciated.
Jack Convery
687 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:22:44
These are the big fees paid by Premier League teams during summer of 2022. The period in which we were basically forced into selling Richarlison because of those so-called mitigating circumstances.

According to reports, Richarlson went for around £60M. In my opinion, it should have been around £80M given his status as Brazils No 9 and his performances, goals and assists, in keeping us up during 2021-22.

He was 25 at the time, with the best years of his career ahead of him. He had 38 caps and had scored 17 goals at that time. I would suggest that given the figures shown below, we sold Richarslon for at least £20M to £30M below his actual value.

We all know who did that but we were forced into doing it because of Covid, the invasion of Ukraine, and Player X losing his value – or am I wrong?

Chelsea: Cucarella £60M, Fofana £75M.

Man City: Phillips £50M

Liverpool: Nunez £85M. He was 23. Had 14 caps with 2 goals.

Man Utd: Casemiro £70M, Antony £86M. Antony was 21, had 12 caps with 2 goals.

Barcodes: Isak £63M.

We got £60M for Richarlison.

Brendan McLaughlin
688 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:24:16
Complete speculation but, on the number of teams lining up to sue us.

I think the report took the view that Everton gained an advantage over the 3-year period under review... so the three teams that went down instead of us.

Perhaps there's also one or two teams who can make the case that they only were relegated because they lost to Everton.

Neil Copeland
689 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:30:00
Paul T, I hope all goes well for you and your wife.

Rob H, I read earlier that the 1878s Atmosphere Fund are planning some sort of representation but cannot give actual details yet. All sounds a bit intriguing.

Paul Tran
690 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:33:25
Thanks, Derek & Neil!
Gavin Johnson
691 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:35:21
Brendan,

Sheffield Wednesday also got a 12-point deduction halved on appeal, so try and look at the positive from that.

Andy Duff
692 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:36:56
I'm less worried about the 10 points and more worried about the clubs who are entitled to compensation that is agreed not by court but by a so called independent FA panel that could send us into administration.

At first you see the articles and think they have no grounds you then read the findings and notice that if we are guilty we are liable.

Surely the FA would not let the club be killed and sent into administration over this, would they?

Si Cooper
693 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:42:10
“I think the report took the view that Everton gained an advantage over the 3-year period under review... so the three teams that went down instead of us.

“Perhaps there's also one or two teams who can make the case that they only were relegated because they lost to Everton.”

Sorry but there can't possibly be more than one per season unless the claim is that some team other than Everton ended up with more points than they should have due to Everton's overspend. That is so ridiculously ‘notional' that it would be impossible to prove.

Brendan McLaughlin
694 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:45:19
Gavin #691,

I'm actually a very positive person and Sheffield Wednesday's case is perhaps a good precedent... The problem is, I don't know the details of the Wednesday case.

Okay... I'm a fecking paranoid bunch of nerves!

Breeeeeathe…

Alan McGuffog
695 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:46:10
Probably Bolton will be lining up to join the baying mob, about the goal they were denied back in nineteen hundred and frozen stiff.

Roll up roll up come one and all!

Kevin Prytherch
696 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:47:47
If those teams try and sue us, couldn’t we try and counter sue Man City and Chelsea for the increased merit payments we would have got every year since the year in which they should have been relegated?
Julie Naybour
697 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:52:28
Can someone please clarify if possible – did I hear that the report said we did not gain a sporting advantage because the financial mismanagement was to do with the stadium?

This could be a critical point re other clubs suing us.

Brendan McLaughlin
698 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:58:16
Thanks Si #693.,

I was just brain-storming, so I'm pleased I can dismiss the complete speculation on my part.

Although when people confidently argued we wouldn't be punished because of our P&S breaches... I was sort of concerned. Tut, tut, eh?

But perhaps... indeed hopefully.

Brian Wilkinson
699 Posted 18/11/2023 at 21:58:50
Well thanks for the vote of confidence, Derek K… was a bit shit wasn't it :-)

Just as I was about to do an encore as well, you drag me off with your shepherd's crook! :-)

Brendan McLaughlin
700 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:01:29
Julie #697,

See Neil #643 & Barry #660.

What do you think?

Neil Copeland
701 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:01:30
Surely the only teams who have any sort of case are Burnley and Leicester? Even then, surely the fact that it was the 2021-22 season where we ballsed things up came too late for sanctions to help Burnley?

That would leave only Leicester with any sort of case other than teams claiming lost revenue through league placings (Leeds and Southampton) which seems too paltry to even consider. The rest of it, ie, results versus Everton, is too complex and circumstantial to merit a claim, isn't it?

Barry Rathbone
702 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:03:38
My limited experience with legal matters is, if it seems dodgy, it probably is, and the courts mostly judge it that way.

I certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility of the club being sued as others have. In fact, I think it's nailed-on we will be sued given we did abuse the rules and it's such a slam-dunk for any half-decent brief.

Complete evisceration on the basis of a potential unfair advantage claim is on the cards unless we settle, regardless of what this report says.

Brendan McLaughlin
703 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:17:08
Neil #701

"The rest of it, ie, results versus Everton, is too complex and circumstantial to merit a claim, isn't it?"

If a team were relegated by 2 points and had lost to Everton but would have survived otherwise... not very complex or circumstantial?

Where the feck are the ToffeeWeb stattos who can quantify this sort of stuff?

Jerome Shields
704 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:24:19
Brendan #615

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The Auditor's Report helped trigger the Premier League to take action and set up the independent commission. The independent commission would have looked at the first-hand evidence presented to it.

It would be up to the protesting clubs to present evidence to counter the Premier League statement that Everton did not get a sporting advantage. This would be difficult. Though the process to claim does exist, the statement that Everton did not gain a sporting advantage has all the appearance of being discouraging...

Brian Wilkinson
705 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:24:45
Can Everton sue for false advertisement of false Number 10s, or is it sold as seen?
Tony Abrahams
706 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:28:36
I don't often find myself agreeing with you, Barry R, but after reading this thread, I have already started to think I was wrong when I said I would take a 12-point deduction if it meant we ended up with decent owners.

I hadn't thought about the implications of the club being fined by others, which might lead to another 9 points being deducted. If these fines do happen, then we will probably also end up going into administration as well.

Let's face it, Moshiri should have done everyone a favour and sold Everton a long time ago. But he was only a front man for one of the richest men in the world, he couldn't have done this without Usmanov agreeing. If Usmanov is still reluctant because of how much money he's going to lose, then maybe administration will surely beckon?

I'm sure there is a big case to say that it never helped us gain a sporting advantage, simply because we finished lower in these 2 seasons than we had finished in the last 20 seasons.

But it doesn't stop the worry that we have maybe been set up so that we have much bigger obstacles to face in the very near future.

Brendan McLaughlin
707 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:38:00
No, Jerome #704

The Auditor's Report had as much impact as you or I posting on ToffeeWeb.

Everton breached the P&S limits... that's why the Premier League took action.

If the Auditor's Report had been in any way significant, it would have featured in the commission's report... it didn't.

Seriously, not trying to be controversial, and I know you're hung up on the "going concern" wording in the Auditor's Report, but the Premier League ain't concerned about that...

It's all about the financial limits and, as I've said, we breached them.

Julie Naybour
708 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:38:14
Thanks very much, Brendan.

Very helpful, though depressing.

Ray Robinson
709 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:41:34
Brendan, the argument is circumstantial.

If Leeds were to argue that Everton took 4 points off them, then by the same token Leicester gained 4. So, ignoring the Everton games between Everton and Leeds and Leicester, the table would still have had Leeds and Leicester relegated.

We beat Arsenal 1-0. What would they say if Man City had won the League by 2 points? Where would such conjecture end?

Brendan McLaughlin
710 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:42:57
Julie #708,

We shall overcome... never doubt that.

Neil Copeland
711 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:43:20
Brendan #703,

I get that but our results against the other teams in or around the relegation zone would have to be taken into consideration also.

As you say, we need the stattos…

I need a drink.

Tony Abrahams
712 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:46:29
Just reading another little article about Everton by Forbes, and find it intriguing why they have suddenly started reporting on Everton Football Club, and especially because the previous article was to dig out 777 Partners.

Reading this article on NewsNow Everton, then one of the flags that is shown in the article does show how aware a lot of Evertonians were about the disgraceful way our club was being run. It is definitely these people who are suffering more than anybody else right now, even if it's hopefully going to galvanize us in the end.💙

Brian Wilkinson
713 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:48:57
I have tried to get my head around other clubs sueing Everton and here is my take on it.

Everton have been deducted the 10 points this season, when this was carried out this season, the points already sanctioned.

The discrepancy happened in the 2021-22 season, so if everything was as swift as this hearing, we would have got punished within that season.

Neither Watford or Norwich would have avoided relegation, even with the 10-point deduction, the only team that have a case is Burnley, who would have survived.

Any club going down receives a 55% parachute payment for TV rights from the Premier League, each club getting an additional £2.2M for each place higher they finish, so then you have to add the 55% to actual money Burnley received in the Championship that season, and deduct the £2.2 Million they lost for not finishing a place higher.

Then it gets harder how much did Burnley get in the Championship the following season compared to what they would have got for another season in the Premier League.

That's as far as I've tried to work it out.

For me there is only Burnley who have a case.

Brendan McLaughlin
714 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:52:57
Thanks Ray #709,

As much as it doesn't pain me, I have to say I defer to your reasoning!

Kevin Molloy
715 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:54:16
What is Burnley's problem? That over a 3-year period, we spent £19.5M more than we should, and that this caused us to get more points than them? Good luck with that.

If we extrapolate it for last season, we spent £6M more than we should, and they will try and say if we hadn't have spent that money, we'd have been relegated? No chance.

They just want us to offer them £10M to go away.

Matt Traynor
716 Posted 18/11/2023 at 22:54:26
The media is all over the place on this. The Times suggesting that Man City and Chelsea could face relegation... The Mail continues its hate campaign suggesting we face claims, then administration, then relegation, then hosting Championship football at our new stadium. The BBC and even elements of TalkShite seem balanced, and in the former's case bordering on supportive.

This is the culmination of decades of mismanagement, the one constant being our recently departed ex-Chairman. As mentioned elsewhere, Moshiri was the right investor for him, not for the club.

For once, I'd like to see the club stand up for itself like any of the other monied clubs would, instead of meekly taking a shafting.

The Premier League is a members corporation, but has been led by the big clubs for years. (Liverpool and Man Utd trying to change the overseas broadcast revenues etc.) They absolutely do need regulating – just not by a sleaze-riddled government.

They should've been put in their box a couple of years ago, asking the clubs to pony up £5m as Scudamore's retirement gift. Or before that the 39th international game. Sporting integrity? Dickheads don't know the meaning of it.

Iain Johnston
717 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:00:08
In the timeframe, we were £124.5M in debit with an annual turnover of approx £180M?

Bournemouth are £122 million in debt with an annual turnover of around £54m. They are also building a new Academy & training facilities with a planned new stadium costing around £90m to be built on the current training facilities.

I take it they're next then because a turnover of £54m with a stadium which holds around 11,000 doesn't get a business those toys without Enid Blyton doing your accounts.

Barry Hesketh
718 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:01:21
Tony @ 712,

Perhaps some of the media outlets are realising – all too late – that the Everton fans were on the right track all along and now they are trying to right that situation. Anyway, the Mail with another fan article by an Evertonian.

EVERTON FAN VIEW: A record Premier League points deduction will be a stain on our name and history.

Mark Taylor
719 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:05:56
I've read the report twice now and if it says anywhere that we definitively didn't get a sporting advantage from our breach, please will someone reference it.

I'm 99% sure it isn't there. Actually as Brendan has said, quite the opposite, it is assumed there is a sporting advantage and the commission says so. It's the reason the rule exists in the first place, however stupid some (including me) might think it is.

However, it will be up to any clubs suing to quantify the compensation they are claiming and tie it inextricably to the breach. That goes beyond merely the principle but needs calculating and the amounts will surely be contested. I don't think it's as simple as pinning the entire cost of relegation on our breach.

The Tevez/Sheffield case drew heavily on the very substantial contribution this player especially made to West Ham's escape. I think it is a clearer case to argue than our applicants can. Even so, it was eventually settled by agreement, outside the process, from recollection.

I like Simon Jordan's view that the penalty will be reduced to around 3 points, but I can't see it myself. Whether we like it or not, the commission regards a £19.5M excess over what they specifically reference as a very generous ceiling, one high enough to allow for all unforeseen events in their view, as a very serious breach indeed. One we had plenty enough time to put right in their judgement.

Neil Blaney
720 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:07:25
Barry, Brendan, Julie etc re our being sued by other clubs.

Last May 5 clubs applied to the commission to be allowed to join in the case against Everton on the basis that, if Everton were found to be in breach of PRS that they suffered loss as a result of Everton's actions:

IN THE MATTER OF A PREMIER LEAGUE COMMISSION PLJP 2023/3 Date: 9 May 2023 Before : David Phillips KC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Between : The Premier League Claimant - and - Everton Football Club Company Limited Respondent
Leeds United Football Club Limited Nottingham Forest Football Club Limited Southampton Football Club Limited Leicester City Football Club Limited Burnley Football & Athletic Company Limited Applicants

The commissioner refused their application to take part in the case against Everton but said "I am satisfied that the applicant clubs have potential claims for compensation" in the event of a breach being found.

The commissioner then went on to direct that after the case against Everton concluded "...Premier League must provide a copy of the decision to the applicant clubs forthwith. Within 28 days of receipt of a copy of the decision, each applicant club must inform the Commission whether it wishes to pursue a claim for W.51.5 compensation". That is a claim for compensation against the club.

I understand the Premier League has notified each of these clubs, all or any of whom can now make a claim to the commission. If the commission accepts their arguments, they will award compensation against Everton. I think this is clear.
Any appeal by Everton against Friday's decision (which I am all for) can only delay any of these claims for compensation as Everton in amended pleadings accepted they were in breach of PRS. The appeal can only be against the severity of the punishment.

Whether any of those clubs (and perhaps others can also claim under this rule) might succeed in claims for compensation is another matter which will depend on the strength of their arguments and Everton's counter-arguments which might be endless.

However, like Brendan, I don't see anywhere in the decision where the commission say we did not gain an unfair advantage. The decision states:

"Further, as was recognised in Sheffield Wednesday FC v The Football League Ltd a breach of the PSR will confer a sporting advantage on the defaulting club, to the detriment of competing clubs who have managed their finances more responsibly".

Further, the Premier League argued for a points deduction on the basis of the Sheffield Wednesday case, ie, that a sporting advantage is inferred. Everton argued back saying a transfer embargo would be appropriate. The commission agreed with the Premier League, saying:

"We have no doubt that the circumstances of this case are such that only a sporting sanction in the form of a points deduction would be appropriate"

I think the confusion over this issue arises due to an earlier part of the report where the Premier League were seeking greater penalties (aggravating factors) on which point the commission's decision states:

"We do not consider that the reasons for the PSR breach should aggravate that culpability unless they can be said to constitute exceptional conduct. For example, a deliberate cynical breach of the PSR to achieve a sporting advantage might increase culpability beyond that already arrived at by the extent of the breach. We do not think that this is such a case. Everton may have taken unwise risks, but it did so in the mistaken belief that it would achieve PSR compliance: it is not a case of a deliberate breach."

To my reading, that simply says we did not cynically or deliberately breach PRS to achieve a sporting advantage but breach it we did (as we admitted to the commission).

Finally and not wishing to be too pedantic but we are not getting sued – rather these clubs are applying under Rule W.51.5 for compensation to the Premier League commission.

Sorry for being long-winded and happy to hear anyone else's thoughts.

Jerome Shields
721 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:09:08
Brendan #707,

The Premier League in August, prior the the Final Accounts being published, indicated that Everton were within the Profit and Sustainability Guidelines.

What are you suggesting changed their opinion?

Brendan McLaughlin
722 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:10:42
Neil #711.

"I need a drink."

I've had several... doesn't help one bit.

Absolutely depressed that a club of our standing could be brought to this.

Phillip Warrington
723 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:13:57
If everything stays as is right now, does that mean besides the points deduction, we will sued to the oblivion I read that 6 clubs will be seeking around £50M each?

Then calculate the stadium which continually is underfunded, continual loans to stay afloat while we wait for new owners. I have never been so depressed in my life and had to go to hospital to get some medication to calm me down.

I can't see a way out for Everton other than going into receivership and that would be no picnic. To think when Mr Moshiri first took over, he was going to take Everton to new heights… well, he's certainly done that.

Kevin Molloy
724 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:19:25
This sporting advantage will have to be quantified. And when it is, they will realise it is minute.

They will look at the excess costs and the period over which it was spent. So, for last season, we spent (if we extrapolate) £6.5M more than we should. Does that advantage translate to points on the board? I honestly don't see how it could.

It's the sort of money we lost just by suspending Gylfi Sigurdsson. The whole thing is a nonsense. Tevez banging in goals every week, yes, he kept West Ham up… but us going over our the limit by £6.5M? No way.

We can show, over the last 6 years, there were seasons when we spent over £100M, and finished lower than years when we spent bugger all.

Andy Duff
725 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:28:36
If we do have to pay compensation, would that be outside of the scope of PSR or would we then be hit with another PSR charge also?
Brendan McLaughlin
726 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:28:41
Jerome #721,

I devour everything Everton related but perhaps I missed that.

So the Premier League indicated that we were within the limits... can you post a link to that?

Brendan McLaughlin
728 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:40:48
Andy #725,

Given that we fucked up... I think any compensation or fine will count towards our P&S figure.

Deborah Maria
729 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:41:12
Andy Duff
730 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:44:13
Brendan,

Then, if that is the case, are we not going to be hit with another point deduction and more compensation claims?

Would we end up in a continuous loop of points deductions? Surely compensation paid can't be used to beat us again.

Brendan McLaughlin
731 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:53:33
Maybe Andy #730

Double Jeopardy perhaps...fingers crossed 🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞

Ernie Baywood
732 Posted 18/11/2023 at 23:54:57
Jerome 721,

Apparently our P&S reporting showed us to be under the limit. We had said that despite losing £378M, our losses for P&S purposes were £87M.

But that was before somebody actually looked at them and said 'Hang on, you've made some very generous interpretations here'.

Brendan McLaughlin
733 Posted 19/11/2023 at 00:18:00
Neil #720,

That's what I was trying to say only you said it more simply, logically and eloquently.

Feck you, Neil!

Brendan McLaughlin
734 Posted 19/11/2023 at 00:28:32
Ernie #732,

Apparently it's all in the Auditor's Report...

I've read it a few times (unlike the independent commission) but apparently I'm still missing something.

Gavin Johnson
735 Posted 19/11/2023 at 00:55:59
There's no denying the charge and we were £19.5M over the £105M allowed, but has anyone got a scooby how it has given us an on-field advantage over the likes of Leeds, Leicester and Burnley, if the shortfall is attributed to the build of the stadium??

Sorry, if someone has already given an explanation and I've missed it.

Surely these clubs are better served suing the Premier League?

Jerome Shields
736 Posted 19/11/2023 at 01:05:18
Ernie #732

Thank you, that makes sense.

Brendan it was definitely reported at that time (though it may have been an Everton leak) but it seems that it was based on creative accounting by Everton, which was in contrast to the final accounts that the Auditor signed off on, with a qualifying statement regarding concerns about Everton as a going concern should they be relegated.

It seems that, during the monitoring period, Everton tried to sell the Premier League a pup. They may have also tried the same with the original Auditor, hence their resignation.

It looks like Barrett-Baxendale and Inglis fell on their swords to appease the situation, getting a pay-off, which now looks like a waste of money.

I did originally think that it was a difference in figures between the monitoring and the final accounts that was the trigger, but changed my mind, since I could not fathom that Everton would attempt such a thing. That is the reason I though the Auditor's Report was the trigger. It appears according to the Commission report that it was the former.

Si Cooper
737 Posted 19/11/2023 at 01:17:30
Neil (701) – that's certainly the way I see it, in terms of determining who has lost out and to what extent.

It's an overspend judged over 3 years isn't it? So you can overspend as long as, at the end of a rolling 3-year period, you are back within the limit?

I think a can of worms may have been opened by making the punishment points that would have seen us relegated in the previous years.

If the Premier League allow everyone who feels aggrieved to now take their pound of flesh from Everton, then I feel they have potentially misrepresented the jeopardy for a club periodically trying a cash injection to improve their competitiveness.

Brendan McLaughlin
738 Posted 19/11/2023 at 01:24:06
Jerome #736,

When we meet when/wherever on the WAW... you're paying for the Guinness but no doubt you'll even spin that at the time!

Look after yourself til then.

Mark Taylor
739 Posted 19/11/2023 at 01:35:52
Neil @720,

That is my understanding from reading the report and it helps that you quote the relevant sections. The bit that I think confused people was the assertion that we did not deliberately and cynically breach P&S and so gain a sporting advantage. We did so on the back of what was basically wishful thinking – but the sporting advantage still holds even if not deliberately gained.

In thinking about our defence against compensation, and here I am speculating without any legal expertise, but I wonder if some of the elements we put forward as mitigation might get another outing. Because it is one thing for them to fail as part of the ruling on P&S, but perhaps another matter as being evidential that overall, no sporting advantage could accrue. I'm think here, especially, of the stadium and interest costs because our excess was in fact spent on the stadium, not players.

A new stadium might well confer a sporting advantage, through extra revenue, but that is something that will happen in the future, and cannot apply to the past. Of course, I can give the counter argument, but it might help.

Ultimately someone has to demonstrate that, on the balance of probability, our having notionally an extra £6.5M per season meant we could keep a player that swung the balance in our favour in avoiding relegation. I'm struggling to see that stacking up or at least it strikes me there is a lot of uncertainty over it.

On reflection, neither am I certain that simply assuming a 10-point deduction can be applied any further back than last season at best, since this breach is specific to our position at the end of that season (and even then, that is moot). Since we now have a 10-point penalty, there is arguably a risk of double punishment. And if it applies, it can only apply to one club, Leicester.

I hope we have enough money in the kitty to brief m'learned friends of a rottweiler type. I am tending towards an earlier poster who suggested it might just be a case of chucking £10-20M, but that club would be Leicester. I think the others are barking up the wrong tree. I think we might also want to hope Leicester succeed in getting promoted, just as a backstop...

Jonathan Tasker
740 Posted 19/11/2023 at 02:31:02
Perhaps my favourite all-time Kenwright comment was the one where he says if other clubs weren't sure what to do they'd look at Everton and think "What would Everton do?"
Don Alexander
741 Posted 19/11/2023 at 03:07:29
Jonathan (#740),

That Kenwright comment alone, amid many other comments and decisions he made before and after the disastrous involvement of Moshiri, now provably exposed as a fucking useless accountant, tells anyone with the slightest grip of reason and accountability than Kenwright, and Moshiri, are a pair of useless tossers.

Rest In Perdition, Kenwright, you greedy avaricious deliberately unaccountable shyster.

Your horrible legacy may well soon kill us.

Paul Ferry
744 Posted 19/11/2023 at 03:56:10
Very good piece by Paul "the Esk" Quinn in Saturday's Guardian, that also gives the lie to what I so often read on these pages about that newspaper's "apparent" antagonism to us and our club, something that I have always found a tad embarrassing, to be honest. It's something I tend to file under "anti-snooty lefty Ken Barlow".

Everton fan’s view: Premier League’s 10-point penalty simply doesn’t add up

John Hall
745 Posted 19/11/2023 at 04:06:46
Love it, Don. About time it was said.

I messaged my good friend DK yesterday with a similar message. Haven't posted as I may go overboard.

Bad 2 weeks for me with my daughter just coming out of hospital and the shit hitting the fan with the deduction.

Wherever we end up and however much we suffer, we will still fill a new stadium every match. They can break our hearts but will never break our spirit.

Thankfully never again to be shafted by supposedly one of our own.

Ernie Baywood
746 Posted 19/11/2023 at 04:07:17
Jonathan @740,

I don't know but it's possible that at one time that was true. We were a poorly run club that generally was on the right side of history.

We tried to develop a team, bit by bit, and were just about competitive in the biggest league in the world. Not exactly 'good times', but it's all relative. I think we were working to an Ethos. We had our rules on what was appropriate.

Then Bill and Moshiri ushered us into the world of ends justifying means. We've all talked about shady deals in Everton's past (every club had those) but this one took the biscuit.

We were pretty blatantly being owned by a guy who also had significant ownership in another club. Why even bother arguing it? We were trying to push Russian (via an Uzbekistani and an Iranian) money into the club so we could spend up and catch up. We became an oligarch's plaything.

Then it all came tumbling down when it turned out that gambling your entire future on your ability to funnel dodgy money through fake and ridiculous sponsorships wasn't a safe approach.

I've had a few Changs in my time, but have any Evertonians bought millions of tonnes of structural steel lately based on USM sponsoring us? No, me neither.

These guys risked our club. 700-odd posts in this thread and most seem to be aimed at the Premier League, or the Commission, or the relegated clubs suing us, or the 'Big 6'.

Why isn't there more anger at the club? The Chairman, the puppet owner, the real owner, every executive who watched this happen, and everyone who was complicit in it???

Never mind the £19.5M over the maximum. Nor the £124.5M that is the actually reported loss for P&S purposes. And certainly don't worry about the £87M we claimed it was. What about the £380M they actually lost? And then tried to lie about it... to the point where Everton currently sit joint bottom of the league and are being publicly declared to be cheats in all but that exact word.

This club that defines my identity as much as anything else in my life is skint, bottom of the league, and are a pack of liars. Awesome isn't it?

Steve Brown
747 Posted 19/11/2023 at 04:11:57
Mark @ 719, the report does not say we did not gain a sporting advantage.

At an outcome level, this point is being cited based on our finishing position in the league in the 3 seasons in question.

Given the fundamental issue here is our ability to write off interest on intercompany loans that Everton made to Everton Stadium Development Ltd, then there is no sporting advantage gained there.

Equally, asserting that the loss of £200 million committed by USM for stadium naming rights effective immediately cannot be cited as mitigation is comedic. The Russian-Ukraine war has caused global economic shock-waves and there was a direct impact on this commercial deal.

This is fundamentally a debate about accountancy principles, and therefore should have resulted in a financial penalty. Not a sporting penalty.

Chris Davies
748 Posted 19/11/2023 at 04:19:51
I think the wording in the judgement covers everyone's back?

We, “didn't gain a sporting advantage”, so no case to answer when the relegated clubs come claiming.

And the unique fact that we essentially gambled our “loss” on expecting 6th and finishing 16th. This can always be considered reckless.

I don't think Man City will have made such silly “choices”. Their punishment will be entirely different.

Steve Brown
749 Posted 19/11/2023 at 04:24:29
Also, on the Daily Mail's assertion that we could be docked a further 9 points if other clubs successfully sue us and force us into administration this season.

Even if Leicester, Leeds and Burnley etc decide to take legal action in the civil courts, there is zero possibility that the case would begin this season.

As Neil at 720 points out, the commissioner refused their application to take part in the case against Everton but said "I am satisfied that the applicant clubs have potential claims for compensation" in the event of a breach being found.

They wanted to join the case as a means to fasttrack their claims and tie compensation into the commission's penalties. They will now have to initiate a civil court case to pursue this against Everton where the reality is that the 10-point penalty was levied principally because of write-offs for intercompany loans for the new stadium.

Good luck proving you got relegated because of that, and enjoy paying the 2-3 years of legal fees trying to prove it.

Ernie Baywood
750 Posted 19/11/2023 at 04:49:06
Steve 747 - I don't believe that's the issue at hand.

This is about Profitability and Sustainability reporting. We have argued that the cost of interest on external loans should be excluded from the calculation as we then loaned the money to the Stadium and they really related to the stadium.

The Commission went to the trouble of reproducing the following from our loan application documentation:

Use of Funds

If the facility is successfully completed, the funds will be used for working capital facility purposes. Hence, in the same way as the Rights and Media Funding Limited facility this additional financing support will be used for operational purposes during the 2020/21 season.

We do not intend to use any of the funds for the new stadium project or to buy players in the transfer window. These funds will be used to continue to support the Club and all of the activities that the Club are involved in for the term of the facility.

It's an absolute slam dunk.

If we were borrowing for the stadium then we should have borrowed for the stadium. From a P&S perspective — it's a done deal.

It's not the Premier League arguing points of accountancy, it's us. We spent money we didn't have, we kept doing it, we got into trouble and then we tried to argue that the real problem was COVID, Russia, Player X, everything but our own failings.

Ernie Baywood
751 Posted 19/11/2023 at 04:57:48
Chris Davies. I don't mean to have a go but it's been said on this thread hundreds of times now.

The report does not say that we didn't gain a sporting advantage. It says the exact opposite:

a sporting advantage is to be inferred so that anything other than a points deduction would be simply inappropriate.

Everton disagree. Personally, I don't. We were spending money that others were not allowed to. It's an advantage. Maybe it was incompetence and wishful thinking behind it. The Commission generously says they don't believe it was a deliberate and cynical attempt. Again, I disagree. Feel free to argue over that one.

Derek Knox
752 Posted 19/11/2023 at 05:43:03
Don @ 741, why the kid gloves ? :-)

Spot on though, all the same. I reckon this is possibly or probably the longest thread yet on TW. As many have said, yes, we could have done without all this, and yes again these are trumped-up punishments for something that was totally and utterly beyond the fault of any fans!

What has shocked me apart from the actual punishment, is the timing, mid-season? Either they aere out to get us for some reason, or they are trying to set some sort of weird precedent with us as the scapegoats.

One thing I am pleased about is the way it has galvanised us even more as a fan-base, and hopefully we get some other genuine supporters from other clubs, throwing in to the argument too. Although I won't be holding my breath on that happening, but if it does, all the better.

Andy Walker
753 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:01:00
So the nightmare scenario is coming true.

I simply can't see the 777 takeover going ahead (even if they pass approval) if we lose our points deduction appeal and other clubs consequently sue us. It would expose 777 to £100s millions of liabilities. We're heading for administration.

As I've always said, Moshiri was the liability. He has destroyed our club.

Ernie Baywood
754 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:03:17
Andy, they've already seen the accounts.

The only new news is the points deduction, which they knew was a possibility.

As for the question of being sued... it just can't happen. Everyone's going to be suing everyone once Man City's and Chelsea's get done.

Steve Stanway
755 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:05:47
I read that both Arsenal and Tottenham loaned £120M off the government which taxpayers footed the bill for during Covid which is a little more than our £19.5M.

If true, why were they allowed? Or did FA turn a blind eye?

Ernie Baywood
756 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:12:07
Steve, we also borrowed off anyone who would let us.

If those clubs took on loans from the Bank of England, then that will be in their accounts.

I don't see the relevance to the £19.5M (though it isn't £19.5M).

The £19.5M is the amount by which we exceeded the highest bar the Premier League set. The threshold actually starts at £15M... we managed to go over that by nearly £110 million!

Steve Stanway
757 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:24:45
So it seems we have had a 10-point deduction due to building a new stadium. Arsenal had the same problem when they built their stadium which I don't think is right.

The Premier League is a brand and surely they want the biggest, best and most state-of-the-art stadiums to improve the brand which will in turn bring in more of their much-wanted money.

So they tie their clubs' hands, making it nearly impossible to manage both the day-to-day running and the building of new stadiums – so how it is clubs will not build new stadiums making them old and possibly unsafe.

I know like all that we have wasted lots of money because the wrong people have been in fiddling with football matters that shouldn't be but it stinks for the commission and Premier League to say our punishment is down to the new stadium.

Mike Gaynes
758 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:25:29
Andy #753,

You haven't the slightest idea what 777 Partners are planning or what liabilities they could be exposed to.

Ernie Baywood
759 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:31:26
Steve, the deduction is nothing to do with the stadium. Stadium costs have been excluded from the calculation.

We just haven't been allowed to call other costs stadium costs. And we've been dodgy as hell. For example, we tried to pass on interest from a completely different loan. Then we tried to stick 5 years worth of interest into one year!

So we were able to exclude stadium costs... except for the ones that the Commission found were fake and misleading.

When Arsenal built their stadium, they locked themselves into long-term sponsorship deals and went into a period of very sensible transfer dealings. Then when the stadium was built, they were a different club with stadium revenue and renegotiated sponsorship deals.

That's planning.

Ernie Baywood
760 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:43:51
I'm going to post the link to the report:

2023-11-17 Premier League v Everton FC - Decision

In my view, every Evertonian should read this. It's written in pretty formal language but isn't overly convoluted.

I'm not the right person to write up a summary. And producing a list of our incompetence and deception is too much work for me. There are just too many examples in there. You need to read it for yourselves.

I'll state that I don't think the penalty is harsh. I think it's a justifiable punishment and a deterrent to anyone else considering our path. That's of course on the proviso that others are punished in a similarly proportionate way.

But from what I'm reading I suspect I'm going to feel very embarrassed come next Sunday when we play victim in front of the cameras.

Mal van Schaick
761 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:45:18
It gets worse. I am up early as a Burnley fan is snoring next to me (the Mrs). Should be crowing not snoring.

The 10-point deduction should be reinstated, as we have appealed, and therefore the judgment against us is not fully confirmed. As I said earlier, the judgment should be set aside on appeal.

The Premier League table should show Everton with the 10 points reinstated as we have appealed, and until such times that we have our appeal hearing, we are not guilty as charged.

Everton's legal team should be standing up to these incompetent bullies and challenging this kangaroo court who have removed our 10 points with immediate effect, when new evidence or evidence to challenge the Premier League commission's decision is still to be heard.

Ernie Baywood
762 Posted 19/11/2023 at 06:54:38
Mal, we don't have new evidence. In fact we've been progressively withdrawing our arguments due to them being ripped apart.

We've accepted that we breached the rules and are pretty much down to 'mitigating factors' now. Basically pleading for leniency.

We've tried all the things that everyone uses as an excuse.

"But COVID" was dismissed as they'd already allowed £70M of exclusions due to that.

"But Ukraine" was dismissed as it's up to us whether we deal with Uzbek-Russian Oligarchs. And the case we made was laughable – we were apparently negotiating that money due in 2025 might be paid early in 2022. With no evidence. That was dismissed – to be honest it was probably laughed at.

We even tried "But Mental Health" as to why we didn't sue Player X for some imaginary amount of money that we may not have won and he may not have had.

Colin Glassar
763 Posted 19/11/2023 at 07:03:34
Mike,

Andy is simply repeating the doomsday headlines that are on the back page of every Sunday newspaper here.

The vultures are circling, ready to pick our sorry carcass clean.

Thank you, Moshiri and the other fella.

Alan J Thompson
764 Posted 19/11/2023 at 07:28:06
Some seem to think that the words, "no sporting advantage" is some sort of reason we shouldn't be sued by other clubs or have points deducted but it will not be those three words but how they arrived at this conclusion that will be contested. Isn't this why a £105M limit was introduced, although one might want to ask if £105M today would buy any sort of advantage?

I'm beginning to wonder if we will get a points penalty reduced on appeal in order that any points deduction for other clubs whose dealings are being considered does not result in the loss of any cups, titles or qualification for money spinning competitions, a right Pandora's box that might be.

A pity that penalties for losses over a 3-year period (facetiously £6.5M per year) are not spread over a similar period.

Steve Brown
765 Posted 19/11/2023 at 07:35:04
Ernie @ 759, if we had borrowed the money for the new stadium from a bank or the council, we would not have been charged at all.

The interest charges on the loans would have been written-off in the P&L and we would not have breached PSR. But, Moshiri preferred to fund the stadium himself through intercompany loans from the club.

Take a look at Professor Kieran Maguire from Liverpool University discussing this on Sky Sports. He characterises this as a legal/accounting issue rather than a footballing one.

Football finance expert Kieran Maguire explains reasons for point deduction

You also say that Arsenal locked themselves into long term sponsorship deals and went into a period of very sensible transfer deals when building the Emirates stadium - so did Everton.

1) We agreed a long-term £200 million stadium sponsorship deal with USM that collapsed overnight due to the outbreak of the Russia-Ukraine war. For the financial year 2019-20, at least £42 million of Everton's £64 million sponsorship receipts came from USM Holdings alone.

If Premier League clubs have agreed long-term commercial deals with US companies then hammered by the 2008-09 banking collapse, would the Premier League simply say “Well, that's the price you pay for doing deals with them Mericans?”. Of course not.

2) We overspent massively (and badly) in the summer of 2017. But, over the last 5 years we have been in the Bottom 3 in the Premier League ranking for net spending on transfers.

3) It would also be very interesting to see where every Premier League club is sourcing lending from – do you honesly think it would be markedly different from the sources we borrowed from?

That is not to say that the club wasn't grossly-mismanaged over the last 7 years – we actually should have stopped spending on high-cost new players in the summer of 2020 when we knew Covid was going to have a massive impact given the issues with the Premier League on stadium write-offs.

But, for you to say that the penalty is not harsh is very surprising and I fundamentally disagree.

Pat McKinlay
766 Posted 19/11/2023 at 07:39:38
Nobody tells me that the Premier League rules, transfers, accounts to fit the books are not broken many times over a season in the Premier League.

One instance would be the sale of Chelsea for, what was it? £4.25B, now breaking the rules for a mere £19.5M would be peanuts to Chelsea. The same for the billions generated by the likes of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal – not forgetting the billions that the Newcastle owners are prepared to put into that club.

These clubs entice the supposed world best players, when £19.5M would be a mere tip spread over the families and agents to have the edge to sign these players over other clubs.

in my opinion. Everton are the whipping boys for most likely being honest in telling the truth about their finances because the revenue they have generated is only a drop in the ocean compared with the big boys of the Premier League.

To put it bluntly, it's Evertons own fault. The sheer incompetence that's been associated with the club for years.

Okay, RIP Kenwright… but any professionally run Premier League team would have made a priority to have a new ground in place 20 plus years ago.

Kenwright liked to call it “The People's Club” but nobody tells me he didn't get many millions out of Everton. Then you have a puppet owner for a Russian oligarch. I don't think he's got the intelligence to run a tiddlywinks team – never mind a supposed professional Premier League team.

Jonathan Tasker
767 Posted 19/11/2023 at 07:48:01
So what's next?

Will the 777 Partners deal proceed?

To me, it's like Moshiri is trying to sell his house and the prospective buyer knows the property owner is desperate to move. Except each week new information emerges as to why the property shouldn't be bought.

The property is at severe risk of flooding;
It hasn't got a roof;
The neighbours are all mass murderers.

So the price keeps falling...

This is peak Everton. And I'm sure more stuff will emerge.
Meanwhile, Sean Dyche tries to keep us up. If he succeeds, he's the one who will deserve having a stand named after him at the new place.

Frank Fearns
768 Posted 19/11/2023 at 07:53:52
Ernie 762 etc. I have read through the report.

We expose ourselves as being grossly incompetent at managing the club – which we are and knew but this just brings it home. The supporters knew it a long time ago.

I agree, waving banners blaming the powers above us for our own incompetency does not fit. Some will say "What about the others, ie, Man City etc?" Well, I expect they will eventually get their comeuppance?! I hope.

On the field, if the players have the same willpower as the supporters, I think we will survive this season, but looking forward, I hope Everton can gain a competent and honest management team. For the sake of our great supporters we deserve better than present and previous incumbents.

Steve Brown
769 Posted 19/11/2023 at 08:24:24
Imagine redshite fans posted “we deserved it” comments on their fan sites if they had been deducted 10 points in similar circumstances.

No wonder we are the punch-bag for the Premier League.

Kick us in the nuts and we'll ask you to forgive any pain to your toes!

Tony Mace
770 Posted 19/11/2023 at 08:29:30
If Everton do get sued by other clubs for financial implications of going down last season, we simply sue the Premier League for taking so long to make a decision. They can't have it all their own way.

Sue them for allowing matches to take place during COVID

Sue them for bringing the Premier League into disrepute by allowing the Saudi state to buy Newcastle. A country found guilty of state-sanctioned murder.

Plenty of things to sue these self-righteous bastards for.

Time for 40,000 "Premier League is Corrupt" banners at Goodison.

Jerome Shields
772 Posted 19/11/2023 at 08:38:39
Brendan #738,

Yes, we will have to meet. No problem going to Derry in the New Year. Prefer it to Belfast, Library not far from the Station.

I suppose everything Everton wise is coming out in the wash. Ernie seems to have the right interpretation. Basically the Premier League lost confidence in the Everton regime, the supporters were way ahead of them. But being Evertonians they have hope, as the team looks like heading in the right direction. Though initially after going backwards. Real Everton that.

Barry Hesketh
773 Posted 19/11/2023 at 08:41:51
The Echo (spit) have a story that says 'Everton points deduction may see FSG finally get what they wanted when they bought Liverpool'.

When Fenway Sports Group first came into English football back in October 2010 there was a significant amount of hope thrown behind the emergence of Financial Fair Play regulations helping them to deliver success without having to partake in the transfer market rat race.

They would say that wouldn't they? The story isn't about Everton it's more about the neighbour's chances of success and the hope – for them – that Man City and Chelsea fall foul of these financial restrictions.

How much influence have FSG had on the Premier League's harsh stance on Everton's transgressions? We'll never know, will we?

Rob Halligan
775 Posted 19/11/2023 at 08:55:13
I commend anyone who has the patience of a saint to have read the commission report word for word, and be able to digest every single word in it. I tried to read it, but kept on skipping various sections. One piece that I did digest however, was paragraph 135…… (These are the words of Paul the Esk, not the commission)

Perhaps most pertinently, paragraph 135 of the commission's decision talks of the inappropriateness of a financial penalty for a club “that enjoys the support of a wealthy owner”. Why was the same standard not applied to the breakaway clubs, all of whom have wealthy owners? Where is the consistency of the approach to punishment?

So a fine for the club would have been inappropriate, as its owner has a few quid, and he would not miss what, to him, or so the commission and Premier League think, is a mere drop in the ocean. So, going by the same logic, a fine for Man City and Chelsea, who have far superior wealthier owners than us, will also be inappropriate.

The six clubs who tried to break away from the Premier League and set up the European Super League, couldn't give a rat's arse about the Premier League, their aim was solely to fill their pockets full of European gold.

They only backed down after fan pressure, and the intervention of the government. Was their actions of a breakaway being dishonest? Highly unlikely, but they sure as hell didn't give any consideration to the integrity of the Premier League at the time, and yet, the Premier League consider a measly fine of £3M each to be sufficient punishment?

Had that breakaway gone ahead, then no doubt the Premier League would have lost literally billions of pounds, as its product would have slowly lost interest all over the world.

The commission go on to say that there was no dishonesty by us throughout, but has there been dishonesty by the Premier League? Did they put pressure on the commission to give us a 10-point penalty, by saying beforehand, that they wanted a 12-point deduction?

I'm pretty certain that this 10-point deduction will be reduced upon appeal, maybe even suspended, and despite what one or two on here say, we can and must take an interest in what happens to Man City and Chelsea. After all, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander!!

Barry Hesketh
776 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:04:13
Steve @771

I didn't think I'd ever read an Oliver Holt piece and find myself nodding along to what he wrote.

Everton are their anointed victim, partly pour encourager les autres but mainly to try to show the grown-ups that, despite all previous evidence, they can be trusted with the governance of the game. It's a bit late for that.

They picked the wrong club with Everton, too.

I don't mean that in the sense that they will feel the force of the fans' fury, although the atmosphere at Goodison Park when Manchester United visit next Sunday will be supercharged with defiance and anger.

No, they picked on the wrong club to hit with this level of punishment because, despite the commission's claims to the contrary, there was obviously a whole raft of extenuating circumstances that mitigated the club's infringement of the rules.

How can you, with a straight face, claim Everton should have anticipated the outbreak of the Russia-Ukraine war and the resultant loss of a £200million naming rights deal for its new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock on the banks of the River Mersey?

How can you, with a straight face, claim that they should have anticipated the arrest of so-called Player X, one of their star players, who was later dismissed from his contract without Everton recouping any money for him?

And that is before you consider that the evidence of the last four transfer windows, where Everton's net spend was effectively zero, shows that the club recognised their plight and were doing everything they could to comply with the rules.

The fact remains that the club deserve punishment because they broke the rules but it is clear to most that the level of the punishment is absurd.

Mark Howard
777 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:09:24
Sean Dyche is now Churchill and the war has started…

Go and get them!!!!

Barry Hesketh
778 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:11:47
The only demonstration that Everton fans should be making is to force the Premier League to give us those deducted points back.

Concentrate on those deducted points and we might be able to force their hand; make it too 'political' and we'll get sweet fuck-all – no matter how witty, or forceful we make ourselves heard.

Keep it simple and to the point, little stickers plastered all over the country, on the tube and transport systems, motorway services, airports anywhere there are large numbers of people, saying something akin "Unfair Premier League! Give Everton their points back" might work.

Large billboards reading "Wanted! Premier League for the robbery of 10 points from Everton. Reward: Sporting integrity!"

Pete Neilson
779 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:13:48
Rob (775),

Richard Masters and Gary Hoffman of the Premier League secretly helped the breakaway clubs come up with a damage limitation plan.

Premier League kept Project Big Picture plans secret from clubs outside big six

So much for looking after the interests of all clubs equally. There were never going to be serious consequences. The Premier League is every bit as dodgy as UEFA and FIFA. It's political expediency that matters, not the good of the game.
Graham Mockford
780 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:18:34
The Premier League has in its rules a mechanism for clubs to claim compensation from other clubs.

Everton's offence happened in the 2021-22 season based on the three previous seasons. Therefore it is only this season when any disadvantage could be claimed. The relegated teams were Norwich, Watford and Burnley.

Norwich and Watford finished 16 and 15 points respectively so clearly even if you discounted results against us it would have made no difference.

Burnley could have a case but of course they immediately got promoted so a large amount of any financial loss from relegation has not materialised.

As we have not got the financial results for 2022-23 I can't see how Leicester, Leeds or Southampton are in any position to make a claim.

Would be interested any legally qualified on here would agree.

Brent Stephens
781 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:31:13
Mark #739

"It is one thing for them to fail as part of the ruling on P&S, but perhaps another matter as being evidential that overall, no sporting advantage could accrue. I'm think here, especially, of the stadium and interest costs because our excess was in fact spent on the stadium, not players."

Mark, I think I remember something in the Commission's report rejecting that, on the basis that, at the time, planning approval had not been granted for the new stadium, so, at the time, if planning permission had fallen through, Everton could have spent the money on players etc??

Brent Stephens
782 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:32:14
#744 - yes.
Ernie Baywood
783 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:32:22
Steve, you're still struggling with the facts mate.

Ernie @ 759, if we had borrowed the money for the new stadium from a bank or the council, we would not have been charged at all. The interest charges on the loans would have been written-off in the P&L and we would not have breached PSR.

Yes, we would have breached! We would have excluded more costs, but we would have had more costs to exclude due to the interest.

Unless you're suggesting that Farhad would have instead made those loans to Everton rather than the stadium? That's the argument that Everton made – and it's clearly a misleading argument. And more importantly, it didn't happen.

If he wanted to give Everton more interest-free loans, then he could have, but he didn't. He did it for the stadium so we didn't have loans attached to the build which would then make it less attractive to investors.

This is one area that people seem to have latched onto, and it's an area where there is absolutely no debate. 100% factually we did not borrow money for the stadium that incurred interest. We've seen the application details.

The League and the Commission have gone hard on this as an aggravating factor. It's such a clearly false claim by Everton and I believe it's one of the reasons that they've hit us with such a strong penalty. We misled them previously and then again this time around. We've been lying through our teeth. Even our own documents didn't support what we were saying!

Rob Halligan
784 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:34:00
Graham # 780…

This has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but I don't understand why the results against these relegated clubs should be overturned?

Another thing to consider is this,… these relegated clubs are claiming compensation due to “Loss of Income”, yet is that right, as they are receiving the parachute payments following relegation. Should they be successful in their claim, then will they be repaying the parachute payments they have received?

I know the parachute payments are not as much as money received from the Premier League, but it is still a hefty sum, and which is received for, I think 3 years, or until they are promoted.

Burnley have already been promoted, Leicester are almost certainly going to be promoted this season, and Leeds and Southampton are right in the mix for the playoffs at least.

So should all three relegated teams from last season, be promoted, how much exactly will they have lost, £20M - £30M?

Ernie Baywood
785 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:36:59
Graham @780,

I believe it's actually 4 years in this case. They allowed the two COVID years to be averaged.

So this case involves FY19, 20, 21 and 22.

Danny O’Neill
786 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:44:49
This is it, Rob.

Now they have set the precedent, there has to be consistency and proportionality.

The relegated clubs didn't get relegated because Everton were eventually found guilty for overspending by £19.5M. It was because they finished in the bottom 3.

If they want to sue, they should focus on the corrupt Premier League, not Everton.

Let's come out fighting. That's all we can do for now.

We know the club has been mismanaged and have all been agreeing for years.

But as many media outlets are now coming out and saying, we've been heavily punished from a sporting / football perspective.

The ones who potentially suffer here are the supporters. They've punished the supporters more than they have the incompetent ownership.

Ernie Baywood
787 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:46:52
Barry 776. Regarding Holt's piece...

Even if you did consider it unlucky that the stadium deal with Usmanov fell through, it wasn't due to start until the 2025-26 season. So it didn't affect this period at all.

And we haven't claimed it as an excluded cost but as a mitigating factor – basically pleading for leniency.

There was actually an agreement in place for naming rights. The agreement was that Usmanov had the option to start paying stadium naming rights from 2025-26 onwards at £10M per year for 10 years. We expected that he would go through with that.

But then we argued that we were trying to get him to start paying earlier, so that he'd pay £10M in 2022 before there was a stadium to name. There was no evidence of those negotiations, no agreement, nothing. We couldn't produce anything but we still wanted it considered as a mitigating factor.

I mean, come on. It was dodgy enough that Alisher was our stadium sponsor, but to claim he was then going to start paying 3 seasons early is ridiculous.

Tony Abrahams
788 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:47:17
Andrew @753,

I don't think Moshiri has ever been 100% interested, and this allowed the man who not that long ago boasted with horrible cynical lies, which made it sound like Everton was one of the best run clubs in the country, way too much power in the day-to-day running of the club.

Modern day football is very murky, and Everton have been the perfect example of this, although we should appeal because of what feels like excessive punishment.

I'm genuinely not sure the Premier League have thought this through properly, because once the shit hits the fan with regards the big hitters, then clubs suing each other looks like it will definitely get out of hand.

Jerome Shields
790 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:51:18
I still think the 10-point deduction is too much and leaving Everton open to compensation claims. Though they have tried to mediate the latter, via providing a 28-day entry to a process and stating discouragingly that Everton did not gain a sporting advantage.

Everton do deserve to be punished for misleading the Premier League, but Evertonians who have been protesting against the inevitable guilty regime for years, do not.

Tony Abrahams
791 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:52:28
Ernie, if Oliver Holt hadn't written an article praising Bill Kenwright straight up to heaven (even though it was sickeningly condescending with regards his Everton tenure, imo), do you genuinely think he would be writing this now?

I personally don't, but at least he has shown he is consistent in this era of fake news.

Ernie Baywood
792 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:52:44
Danny, we didn't overspend by £19M.

£124.5M.

We went £124.5M over the target. We went £109.5M over the point at which they start taking action. And we went £19.5M over the point at which they have no choice under their rules but to bring charges and refer us to a commission.

Although a club's target is that adjusted earnings before tax should not show a loss, the Rules provide a degree of latitude. A loss of up to £15 million is largely forgiven. The only consequence is that the Premier League will determine whether in T+1 (the following year) the club will be able to discharge its obligations under Rule E15.9. Greater consequences arise if the loss exceeds £15 million but is less than £105 million. In that event, the club is required to provide the Premier League forecasting to the end of T+2 (the year after the following year), as well as to satisfy the Premier League of its ability to provide evidence of Secure Funding.

The making of a complaint to a Commission does not take place until the loss exceeds £105 million. In that event, the Premier League may impose budgetary/financial restrictions on the club and shall refer the matter to a Commission by way of a Rule W complaint.

John Keating
793 Posted 19/11/2023 at 09:57:27
If Everton are sued by other clubs where does that leave Man City and Chelsea? Clubs who finished second behind them when they won leagues, will they look for compensation?

Cup wins? Teams who finished 5th and missed out in Champions League positions, compensation? Even teams finishing 6th and 7th

In fact everyone who missed out on a Premier League place payment. Just to prove a point, the Premier League have opened themselves up to a nightmare scenario.

Graham Mockford
794 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:01:10
Ernie @785,

I think my point is it is not until 2022 that we are in breach of the regulations, therefore that would be the first time any other club could make a claim.

Rob @786,

I think it is just of case of being able to quantify the effect of being relegated. In Burnley's case, that's the difference between Premier League income and Championship income (parachute payments included), any loss of sponsorship, any loss on player sales etc.

Jerome Shields
795 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:05:10
Thanks, Ernie.

Your posts are getting to the heart of the matter.

As Tony has indicated, the Premier League has opened up a can of worms. They are about to find out that appeasement does not have a place amongst Britons.

Brian Harrison
797 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:16:43
I think the real battle for us as fans to win is the hearts and minds of the pundits and the journalists.

Yesterday the panel on Soccer Saturday all said the 10-point deduction was excessive and unfair, and the more that we can get people of influence all saying the same thing, this I believe will make the appeals panel have second thoughts about the severity of the sanctions.

As Oliver Holt has said, this club has admitted it made a mistake and for the last couple of seasons have done everything to show they have massively reduced their spending to virtually nil.

So we need for the MotD pundits and any Sky pundits as well as any radio presenters to be singing from the same songsheet. That I believe will get the panel who will adjudicate Everton's appeal to look favourably at reducing the ruling.

So let's leave attacking other clubs who may have transgressed for another day; right now, we need to get as much support from football as we can.

Danny O’Neill
798 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:17:09
I thought the commission's official findings were that we overspent by £19.5M.

Anyway, we just need to focus on winning matches. Starting Sunday.

14th again by Christmas with an appeal to follow.

Mark Taylor
799 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:17:58
Brent @781,

Stressing again that I am not a lawyer, so really just speculating, but whilst the published findings are clear that stadium interest cannot be excluded and thus was part of our overspend – which I think is correct and accurate – the circumstances of compensation are perhaps different.

Here applicants may have to take one of two approaches. Either the argument is that the breach runs over several years so any clubs affected from those years have a case. But their case has to be built around the likelihood that our £6.5M or so overspend per year contributed to their relegation.

What I am saying is that, given a part of that £6.5M was actually spent financing a stadium, it cannot confer sporting advantage in the here and now. In other words, it supports our defence that the overspend each year was insufficient to confer meaningful sporting advantage for that season.

The other approach I could see being argued is that the points deduction penalty should have been made last season and Everton were complicit in preventing that, through lack of good faith and prevarication. In that case, one club would have been saved from relegation (Leicester) and one other club would have minor claims for loss of prize money (Leeds).

My hunch is that the claim has to be based on one or other premise, not both, but maybe that is optimisitic. IMHO, the second option above would be harder to defend because if (big if) it could be shown that we did intentionally and unreasonably delay application of the penalty to last season, it's a slam dunk. We'd then just have to hope Leicester get back up, because that limits the actual damages substantially.

It's hard for clubs to build a case on the first option. It's one thing to say, yes there was a sporting advantage, but how can you quantify that? I suspect that for matters of compensation, it's not enough to show rule-breaking, but that the rule-breaking had a material effect that caused damage. I wonder how both parties could approach that, because it can't be an exact science.

One very crude method that occurred to me would be to calculate the impact based on points achieved per £1M of turnover. Our 2021-22 turnover was £180M. We achieved 39 points... So we spent c £4.5M per point. So our sporting advantage is likely less than 2 points. We finished 4 points clear of Burnley that year. Hence while we breached, on the balance of probability, by not enough to change the outcome.

Sorry this is so long, but it's complicated. Fire up the rottweiler lawyers!

Colin Glassar
800 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:18:03
Mark 777 (prophetic?),

I can just see Dyche in his next presser saying, “We will fight on the beaches, in the hills etc… We will never surrender”.

Paul Birmingham
801 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:18:13
My views, thinking about the ifs and buts, of what has happened, is:-

Should Everton have been told upfront and in writing by both the Premier League and the independent commission about the legality of clubs who were relegated potentially suing Everton for loss of earnings and brand damage, loss of advocacy?

If the case is yes, surely in view Everton have been transparent with showing their books to the Premier League and this independent commission, then this must open up the potential scope for Everton to sue the Premier League for a lack of Premier League Rules assurance?

This could bring the game into anarchy with clubs potentially suing Man City for loss of earnings and brand damage, and they could then sue the Premier League?

The governance of the Premier League and the fact they brought in an independent commission must be challenged by Everton in this case. Would Man City and Chelsea be reviewed by the same independent commission?

Were the Premier League transparent on saying how this independent commission were procured? This bringing in a 3rd party to do this type of work is a framework cack out for the Premier League, in my view.

I hope Everton find grounds to rinse the Premier League and their phoney management team. Stinks the life out of the game. Man City surely will be done for if these charges are all validated.

Hopefully all Evertonians are more stoic than ever for the Everton cause.

UTFTs, "What's Our Name?"

Mark Ryan
802 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:25:14
Good to see Oliver Holt onside.
Steve Brown
803 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:27:12
Ernie @ 783, I am not struggling at all with the facts.

1) Commercial loans were made by Metro Bank and Rights & Media Funding Ltd and paid into Everton's current account.

2) Intercompany loans were made from Everton's current account to the Everton Stadium Development Ltd to fund early development of the stadium.

3) Although no interest was initially charged on the intercompany loans from the club to Everton Stadium, the club began to change interest from February 2022 onwards. It is the club's contention that Moshiri would have made funds available to repay/reduce the interest-bearing commercial loans made by Metro Bank and Rights & Media Funding Ltd as he had done previously.

4) The Premier League accepted that such interest could be deducted in April 2022, but subsequently changed their mind.

The issue is whether interest paid on commercial loans into our current account from which we funded the intercompany loans should be deducted. The Premier League agreed but then decided that we had to demonstrate a direct evidence to prove that the loans were incurred in respect of the stadium.

If Metro Bank and Rights & Media Funding Ltd had made loans directly for the stadium construction, then interest bearing would have been written off. Equally, the loans themselves could be excluded from PSR calculation as they are for Capex investment.

Click on the link I posted on @ 765 for Kieran Maguire's explanation.

These are complex arguments based on interpretation of accounting principles. But in your post @ 760 you say "I'll state that I don't think the penalty is harsh. I think it's a justifiable punishment and a deterrent to anyone else considering our path."

I completely disagree that this issue is as binary as you choose to interpret it, and accountants and auditors are hired by all parties to investigate the applicability of such write-offs.

Danny O’Neill
804 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:31:17
Colin, as chance would have it, I have the Darkest Hour on this morning.

Aside from the most famous, some great quotes relative to the current situation and the Premier League:

"Wage war against a monstrocitious tyranny"

"What is our aim? Victory however long the road maybe"

Backs to the walls now. Come out fighting with defiance.

Rob Halligan
805 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:36:28
So now we know what to do: just pay a sum to the Premier League and all will be settled. Bit ironic really, a club with previous history of a breach of FFP wanting to sue another for similar breaches… Pot, Kettle, Black springs to mind…..

Leicester make £3.1m settlement with Football League over FFP claim

Leicester City have agreed to pay the Football League £3.1m to settle the league’s long-running claim that the club breached financial fair play rules when they made a £21m loss in their 2013-14 season.

Ernie Baywood
806 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:45:20
Steve 803 – they didn't accept that 'such interest' could be deducted.

They accepted that interest on loans for the stadium could be deducted. They still state that. That's obviously the case – they would be stadium costs and would be capitalised.

But these weren't loans for the stadium. With plenty of factual evidence.

We misled the league last year and they caught it this year after accounts were published. They've hung us for that.

They've said they're not accusing us of dishonesty. They're just saying we failed to uphold the duty of utmost good faith. Potato/pot-ar-to.

Yes there are plenty of complicated arguments regarding the reason behind the interest and whether it could have been capitalised against the stadium but here's the kicker – we didn't do it!

As for the punishment, what do you think would be an appropriate way to punish and deter? Financial penalties are pointless. It would immediately open the door to every club who has an owner with deep pockets to do whatever they want. The transfer market would go haywire overnight and clubs would go to the wall trying to compete.

James Marshall
807 Posted 19/11/2023 at 10:53:41
A simplistic view this, but how can we get a 10-point deduction for going £19.5M over the threshold, yet the penalty for going into administration is only 9 points?

How in any realm does that make any sense?

Now we're about to get sued for up to £300M and could get docked another 9 points. It doesn't make any sense at all.

The sensible decision would be to downgrade the 10-point deduction on appeal, to say 5 points, and for the suing clubs to get nothing as well, since we didn't gain any sporting edge over them at any stage anyway.

It all stinks to high heaven and I still believe the 10 points will be reduced down the line.

Steve Brown
808 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:03:02
Ernie, read what I wrote more carefully.

Even the Premier League accepted that the interest on the commercial loans from Metro Bank and Rights & Media Funding Ltd could be offset in April 2022. Until they decided that it couldn't.

The loans were paid into our current account, therefore as the Commission report accepts, they are fungible. In accounting terms, fungibility is the ability of a good or asset to be readily interchanged for another of like kind... like an intercompany loan.

The Premier League then decided it wanted documented proof that the Metro Bank and Rights & Media Funding Ltd loans were made for the purpose of stadium financing. This was despite the loans going into the current account used for the intercompany loans for the stadium.

Put simply, they decided to change the accounting terms they wanted to apply our our PSR calculation.

We were then charged in the summer before the government made its decision on the independent football regulator on 7 September.

Just coincidence, I am sure.

Brian Harrison
809 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:05:23
I find FFP and P&S to be absolute nonsense: Could you imagine John Lewis being able to say how much M&S or Next could spend on their business?

There should be no limit to what an owner wants to spend on his company, my only stipulation should be that all owners have to provide a legally binding bond that doesn't let them run up massive debts that they pass on to the club and they personally are liable for any increased debt, which has to be paid before any sale is agreed.

Kevin Edward
810 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:10:14
I hope the club are on the front foot, building a defence based on all of the Premier League crap dished out in our direction in the past. They are not fit for purpose, let's take them on.

It could be the beginning of the end of the Premier League and, if it goes down as a result of picking a fight with Everton, then I will be proud to be a blue.

Our owners and Board were a bunch of idiots who lined their own pockets before acting in the best interests of the club, then did a runner. Call them out again too, if they were in discussions with the Premier League at all during this mess, then the Premier League should have acted sooner and recognised the fan anger with the situation.

We should make this another first for Everton and deliver some resistance with 100% unity, not just sporadic bleating like our neighbours, an unbearable barrage of protest backed up with legal defence by the club. How about a legal challenge on the ‘independence' of match and VAR officials and members of the kangaroo court?

We have been divided for years and sleep-walked into this mess, but the new stadium is coming and if we manage to be able to play in it, then we might just rise again.

I see there is some support in the media and from other clubs' fans, but at the end of the day they are mostly self-serving, only Everton can save Everton.

UTF angry Toffees!

Stu Gore
811 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:11:17
Fuck em all. Up The Fucking Toffees!
Ernie Baywood
812 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:14:04
We were charged once we lodged our PSR. Prior to that point, what would they charge us with?

The Premier League were prepared to accept loans relating to stadium funding even though they couldn't be capitalised due to the stadium not yet having planning approval. They changed their mind due to it becoming clear that the stadium was not funded by commercial loans.

The loans for the stadium came from Moshiri. They were interest-free. These are facts that cannot be disputed.

The loans to Everton were specifically stated to not be for the purposes of the stadium. This is also a fact.

Brent Stephens
813 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:16:23
Steve Brown and Ernie Baywood. Superb stuff, both.

Don't stop. Please keep teasing out the nuances in the debate, to clarify all this for non-accountants like me.

Tony Abrahams
814 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:16:57
I think they have already done this to a certain extent, in a roundabout way, Brian? I'm probably wrong, but I find it just as sickening that people can purchase clubs through leveraged loans, like the Glazers have done at Man Utd, and this is my biggest concern with regards 777 Partners.

We only have to look across Stanley Park to see how this type of deal can backfire, so even if it'll be on the Premier League if they are accepted, it's going to be us very long-suffering Evertonians who will once again be affected the most. It looks to be staring me in the face that something isn't quite right about 777 Partners because they seem to be an organization with their fingers in too many pies.

Mark T below, I think this could well be the making of Sean Dyche, with regards him becoming more accepted by the majority of the Everton fanbase.

Mark Taylor
815 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:17:31
Jonathan @767,

"So what's next? Will the 777 deal proceed?"

This is very salient and of more pressing concern than anything else right now since we are debatably not a going concern as of right now. Buyers of assets do not tend to like transacting when faced with unspecified liabilities.

However, I was encouraged to read (and I hope it is correct) that in addition to having a relegation clause in the sale agreement, they also apparently have a compensation agreement.

This is not an unusual arrangement for acquisitions. Basically it means that a portion of the agreed sale price is held back to deal with such partly foreseen liabilities. So if 777 Partners agree to pay £500M, they pay £400M upfront, then the remainder once and if liabilities do not arise.

This gave me a degree of comfort but that is partly negated by the fact that the club still needs working capital funded on pretty much a monthly basis, not least for completing the stadium.

Moshiri has entirely ceased funding, so it falls to 777 but I also gather this is not preferential debt, they will be middle of the queue at best. So far, 777 appear to have committed somewhere between £40M and £75M, a not inconsiderable sum.

I fear that the severe uncertainty around our club might make private equity guys like 777 Partners very jumpy and worrying about throwing good money after bad. I don't know whether the size of guarantees in place with Moshiri will likely cover any liabilities arising and re-assure them.

I don't know if Moshiri is still entitled to pull out of the sale and, if he can, on what basis, and whether and how 777 Partners get their money back.

Administration is still a possibility, although it seems to me that is in no one's interest, especially 777 Partners. I don't think it can be ruled out, however, that 777 Partners might now be much tighter with the short-term funding, and we might even see stadium work suspended.

How Dyche manages to work in this chaos is beyond me. As an earlier poster says, hopefully he channels his inner Churchill and the innocents here – him and we, the fans, circle the wagons.

Tony Abrahams
816 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:21:36
I agree, Brent. Not many people will be enjoying reading what Ernie is writing, but how many of us enjoyed the verdict on Friday?

If Everton are to get out of this mess, then they have got to put up a very good defence during the appeal.

Mark Taylor
817 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:29:51
Ernie @812,

I've concurred with much of your commentary on this but there is one aspect I'd take issue with in that post:

"The loans to Everton were specifically stated to not be for the purposes of the stadium. This is also a fact."

Spare me if I don't go back yet again to those cursed pages, but I don't think it's accurate to say they were specifically excluded. From recollection, the term used in the loan agreements was for working capital for the club, Everton FC.

I can see where Steve is coming from, that this didn't preclude it from being used to service stadium costs, if it all went into one account and if there was clear evidence that account was used to transfer money to the stadium subsidiary, eg, as inter-company loans. Not sure about whether the latter did actually happen, I'm guessing so.

Where I might differ from Steve, while understanding his general point, is that interest-bearing loans intended for capital projects should be clearly indicated as such on the paperwork, and it wasn't. That is a significant fact. Moreover I think we can understand why. Moshiri didn't want any complications with external creditors for the stadium at that point. Understandable in many ways, but you reap what you sow.

Brian Harrison
818 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:47:14
I find it strange that the head of this commission stated that he thought there was now a case for other clubs to pursue financial compensation – how was that part of his remit?

Also what benefit would these clubs get from pursuing Everton for rumoured to be £300m which would undoubtedly end with Everton going into administration?

So many businesses would suffer and the clubs entering this legal action wouldn't get a penny and would incur expensive legal fees.

Seems this commission was on a mission to try and destroy a founder member, for what possible reason?

Ernie Baywood
819 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:47:32
Mark, here's the section that deals with that:

Everton also obtained commercial loans. Following the introduction of the government's Coronavirus Large Business Interruption Loan Scheme, in June 2020 Everton applied to Metro Bank PLC for a loan. The application contained the following statement –

Use of Funds

If the facility is successfully completed, the funds will be used for working capital facility purposes. Hence, in the same way as the Rights and Media Funding Limited facility this additional financing support will be used for operational purposes during the 2020/21 season.

We do not intend to use any of the funds for the new stadium project or to buy players in the transfer window. These funds will be used to continue to support the Club and all of the activities that the Club are involved in for the term of the facility.

That representation is incorporated into the Metro Bank PLC loan agreement dated 29 April 2021. Clause 2.3 reads –

Purpose

The Borrower shall apply all amounts borrowed by it…towards the payment of indebtedness and its working capital requirements.

Formatted as best I can for clarity.

Jack Convery
820 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:48:50
Everton failed to uphold the duty of utmost good faith. Yet planning behind the backs of the Premier League to sod off to a Super League is not considered to be behaving in good faith. To quote an honest man – You Hypocrites!

By the way, let's not forget, we were the first team to qualify in 4th place for the Greedy League, to have their qualification disputed, because the winners from the previous season finished 5th. There was no rule to cover this, so they made one up and screwed us good style to make sure we did not get through to the group stage.

The Hypocrites say they could not go after the teams who wanted to start a Super League, because no rule existed to cover such an eventuality – so why not make one up? Nah, they were the big Scabby teams and we can't touch them.

As the mob shouted at Brian – he's making it up as he goes along!!

Tom Cannon
821 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:53:30
Again, I think the vast majority of the comments here are thoughtful and sensible, although I always thought 'accounting principles' was an oxymoron before reading it here by people who seem quite sensible.

As for lawyers making football decisions, I've always liked the saying "How do you know when a lawyer is lying? … Their lips are moving."

Lawyers decide what their masters tell them, that's why courts use juries of citizens, not lawyers. The Premier League's appointed lawyers do what the Premier League Board want them.

But back to first principles: we Evertonians did not choose Moshiri to become our majority shareholder, it was a small cabal of larger shareholders who basically took the money and ran.

Even they didn't let him pass the “fit and proper” test — as I understand it, that was the Premier League, the FA and others. He clearly couldn't pass a genuine fit and proper footballing business test, apart from his accountancy skills (see my earlier comment).

We Evertonians are being put through the mill by the very people who said he was a fit and proper person in the first place. Even worse, I find myself agreeing with former Liverpool players who say "Financial penalties for financial irregularities, football penalties for football irregularities."

It's the Premier League Board had any sense they'd have fined us and avoided this terrible mess.

Chris Leyland
822 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:55:59
Ernie, to answer your question as to what could be an appropriate punishment to deter others with deep pockets from simply spending and then paying a fine?

A transfer ban?

A suspended points deduction with a threat to double it if another infringement occurs within the suspension period?

Banning certain individuals from holding roles in clubs?

Surely there's also a contradiction and irony in docking a club 10 points under rules that are supposedly designed to ensure financial sustainably and running of clubs as ongoing concerns in that doing so actually jeopardises the club's financial health by increasing the likelihood of relegation, as well as opening up potential legal cases from other clubs?

The very thing the Premier League are supposedly trying to avoid is actually more likely to happen as a result of what they've done.

Peter Mills
823 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:56:18
Paul #666 and Neil #668 – thank you.
Eddie Dunn
824 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:59:02
Chris @822,

Very good point.

Barry Hesketh
825 Posted 19/11/2023 at 11:59:05
James @807,

Getting that points deduction reduced or suspended is the only thing that matters and possibly the only thing that would help Everton.

All the whataboutism in the world won't do anything to help our club, I'm really not arsed about what Chelsea, Man City or any other club have done or what punishment they might receive if found guilty in the future.

The 10-point penalty is a massive blow to our chances of staying up. If the deduction is not overturned or reduced and Everton somehow manage to stay in the Premier League, we will finish lower in the table than we might have done without any deduction. What is it circa £2m for each place in the table?

If we get relegated because of the points deduction, we could enter administration and start life in the Championship on -9 points, lose players for peanuts, and find ourselves stranded in the lower leagues for many years.

Those that say the punishment does fit the crime, I'm sorry, I just can't agree, and it does reek of the Premier League using Everton to make a point.

Did Everton break the rules? Undoubtedly. Did it give the club an unfair advantage out on the pitch? I would argue not at all, when you consider we kept selling or losing star players to try and keep within the parameters of P&S only to find we made a technical misjudgement, either deliberately or via incompetence.

That, as far as I'm concerned, does not merit a points deduction, it merits punishment, but not one that has a direct bearing on the league table and therefore will also impact our finances negatively, effectively punishing the club twice over for a single breach.

The whole Profitability and Sustainability situation is a farce, clubs who laid financial foundations well before those rules were introduced had a massive head start on the others who weren't as fortunate or weren't in a position to throw millions and millions into their projects.

If you can't compete for Europe because you're limited in your spending, you can't improve your commercial performance, you can't improve your bottom line, you can't improve your squad. Everton tried and failed miserably to play catch-up. Not only did it fail, but because it failed it now faces a decade of austerity on the pitch, because the rules say you can't invest over and above a certain amount, regardless of how rich your owner is.

Perversely having a rich owner also means that a club won't be fined for financial transgressions but will suffer a points deduction, because a fine won't have the required impact that the Premier League is seeking.

The penalties for breaking those artificial financial limits are now deciding the league placings of clubs who transgress those rules, how is that right? How is that fair?

Rob Halligan
826 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:04:17
Well said, Tom.

I firmly believe pressure was put on the commission by the Premier League to impose the 10-point deduction, made worse by the fact that the Premier League publicly announced what they wanted.

Had they just kept quiet about it, then obviously we would never know if any communication between the Premier League and the independent commission had taken place.

I'm not saying all this is correct, but it does seem a very harsh punishment, for what, in effect is a measly overspend of £19.5M. And yes, Ernie, we know before you say it!!

Steve Shave
827 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:05:48
I'm sickened by this ruling and of the staggering hypocrisy and bias which blights the once beautiful game.

I am amazed it happened to be honest, I genuinely felt that the subsequent fallout of this, ie, potentially being sued by relegated clubs, would have scared them off being too strict as it will set a precedent for this type of lawsuit. What next, Liverpool suing Man City for gaining advantages financially to win the title?

To me, this potential shift to clubs suing other clubs is likely to become the bigger story here.

I blame Moshiri and his utter incompetence. I also can't help feeling that if we had spent big on our legal representation we would have faired much better.

We now must move on, use it to galvanise the squad, it's us vs them!

Danny O’Neill
828 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:07:20
Many are digging into the detail.

I just want to beat Manchester United and continue on the steady form we've been in.

We know how poorly the club has been governed and run for decades and now we pay a price for what most could see coming.

As we referred to a few Churchill quotes earlier, the film has just ended. Here's one at the end:

"Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage to continue that counts."

We're not done yet. Not on the pitch. Not with the appeal and not in the courts.

We can get out of the hole that those in charge dug ourselves into.

Chris Leyland
829 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:07:31
Peter Mills,

I'm just reading some of the earlier posts and I'm sorry for the loss of Charlie. I knew him through various connections including the cricket club where my lad played for years and through Liverpool Hope. He did so much great work over the years helping disadvantaged and special needs kids and he leaves a great legacy.

He was a good man and a top blue too. RIP, Charlie.

Dave Cashen
830 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:16:00
Steve (Brown) and Ernie.

Good debating guys. A cut above the useful and insightful "Bill's a twat" posts.

Peter Mills
831 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:19:12
Cheers, Chris #829.

He had a great love for Everton, cricket, his work, and all the people he met through those things.

Jack Convery
832 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:26:49
If you want to fine wealthy clubs and make it hurt, then take the fee of their 2 most expensive buys in the period in question and treble it. Then, until it's paid in full, they cannot bring in other players including free transfers.

Also, have a 20-point deduction suspended for 3 seasons hanging over them.

Brent Stephens
833 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:26:50
Danny #828

"Many are digging into the detail. I just want to beat Manchester United and continue on the steady form we've been in."

Danny, digging into detail is exactly what our club will be doing, so I want to understand the complexities in all this. If I don't, I run the risk of pointing fingers at the wrong people and making an even bigger fool of myself!

Come Sunday, I can be as macho as the next guy and use "fighting" language but, in the meantime, there are big issues to settle.

Mark Taylor
834 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:27:11
Ernie @819

Thanks for posting that. I have now just gone back and checked, that the larger loan from R&MF for £150M was described as for 'working capital purposes'.

As such, and appreciating the Commission rejected this, the practicalities here are that the absence of senior debt for the stadium, funding must surely have meant that the club's inter-company loans to the stadium must have been in excess of what Moshiri had placed in the account, the only one that the club seemed to have been using. Correct me if I'm wrong there. Hence Steve's point of fungible.

Moreover while a failure to specify its use specifically for stadium funding precluded interest being deductible, using the loan for funding the stadium was not precluded ('intent' on the Metro loan is neither here nor there, if the reality was different).

That being so, while I can see the Commission's approach as largely reasonable – to justify excluding interest, it had to be stated the loans were for the stadium and it wasn't; it becomes much more reasonable to bring this into play for the compensation claims, as per my earlier email.

It seems to me probable that some, if not a large portion of those loans were de facto used to cashflow the stadium costs, and that the interest chargeable cannot possibly create a sporting advantage in the here and now.

Gerry Quinn
835 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:28:30
Can we now sue the Red Shite for loss of 5 years of European revenue from 1985, etc? :)
Ernie Baywood
836 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:29:04
Chris 822 – that's all a matter of debate and opinion. Yours is as valid as anyone else's.

To quote (probably badly) the Godfather, we have to learn to think how those around us think.

Suspended points don't work. The Saudis could pump billions into Newcastle over the next year or so. Massively improve their squad and the transfer value it would hold. Then, when they get their suspended sentence, just say "Okay, we won't do that again".

By then, the damage is done in a sporting integrity sense. And it's potentially done if they screw it up and the club is left carrying the debt.

Mind you, Moshiri seems to have openly said to the Commission that was his plan! Unfortunately we didn't reap any benefits, just the downside.

Transfer bans are a more serious punishment and are at least related to the original transgression. But, again, would Newcastle take a 1-year transfer ban after filling their squad with every money-hungry superstar possible? I reckon they would but it's up for debate.

If the intent is to send a message, then points are the strongest way. It's the punishment you give when you actually mean it.

Mind you, I'm still baffled by what the Premier League could really have done about the Big 6. Kicking them out of the league would have made me happy, but they'd have just gone and done the thing they were already doing. Points that meant they wouldn't qualify for Europe would have done the same.

I don't have a great issue with how we've been dealt with under the rules. I think we've acted terribly and taken massive chances with my club with no great regard for risk.

The rules prevent clubs being abused too badly. They also prevent there being another Man City or Chelsea. That's pulling the ladder up behind them.

Danny O’Neill
837 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:29:25
Someone mentioned earlier about this being the longest thread. I think a while back (might have been Benitez time), we symbolically reached and surpassed 1878 posts. This could go there!

Emotions high but nothing compares to a loss. Condolences for your brother, Peter, and hope to see you again soon at a match.

Ernie Baywood
838 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:42:53
Mark @834,

Maybe we did use some of the funds for the stadium. We probably did. It sounds like we were scrambling for loans and doing anything to keep the wolf from the door.

But our argument (in mitigation of culpability only) was that the reason we didn't capitalise post-planning interest on these loans was that we didn't think of it (really?). But if we had thought of it, then we still wouldn't have done it because we were after investment for the first 30 years of the stadium and that would have made it less appealing.

If we didn't do it because we didn't think about it, and wouldn't have done it if we did think about it, then it's a bit rich to then try to exclude those costs (or claim as mitigating factors), isn't it? That's having your cake and eating it.

Dale Self
839 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:45:33
Yes Steve Brown and Ernie Baywood, well done.

And you should know how helpful it is to others who might blow a fuse or bust a vein making their way through all this. Thank you.

Martin Farrington
840 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:46:15
I took time to think before reacting. Some of my observations:

The judgement is flawed, farcical and full of contradictions.

It does not pull on any recent events that clearly set precedents, ie, The Sordid Six.

It does not take into account breaches that occur from administration precedents which is clearly the sister act to this kind of offence.

It disregarded an asset lost — one of the best players at the club suspended through no fault of the club (I heard by the PL but ???) who was clearly of significant value and contribution. Therefore a need for a replacement should have been factored in. Especially as all charges were dropped.

It stated we gained no sporting advantage from the breach then its chair declared that it was satisfied that several rival clubs have potential claims for compensation. For what??? No sporting advantage gained. Surely that is the only factor pursuant to a lawsuit.

Is this commission panel independent? Clearly not, by announcing something that the club was not being tried for.
They were not empowered for this. That statement shows a clear disregard and bias against Everton.

The farcical summation regarding increasing future building costs that could or could not be reasonably expected, ie, from £505M to £760M is not a foreseeable event from the date contracts were signed on the new stadium. Is the chair an expert in this field? Because no experts were called to give a professional opinion about that.

The Premier League's vociferous demand for 12-points deduction before and during the hearing, which is and was clearly prejudicial. No mention made of this nor reprimanding the Premier League's appalling, prejudicial behavior.

Were this panel influenced by the Premier League's partisan chanting? There was no rebutting it. Nor if it did or did not have an impact on their decision-making process.

The fact that we went to the Premier League and developed a plan with the Premier League to prevent further breaches was not taken into account. That could have manifested itself as 6 points immediate deduction and a further 4 suspended for a set period of probation under the Premier League guidance.

The Premier League should have been lambasted for the design and wording of its dreadful P&S regulation which is overly complex and more likely than not to catch teams out.

That flies against the reason for this regulation. Teams that are trying to conform to something that a person of reasonable firmness would not be able to understand cannot also be expected to.

Also, there is no factoring in a loss of assets through no fault of the club (in this case, Player X). That has to be ingrained in fair play at the very least as a reason or exigency.

I've been a Blue all my life, 59 years, now living in Spain. I'm appalled by this treatment by a body not fit for purpose, and I mean both, in these circumstances.

Ernie Baywood
841 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:48:25
And Rob @826 – I won't say it.

What I am going to do is check out of this thread and get back to thinking about football rather than accounting.

Good thread all. Good, honest, more than frank discussion.

David Hallwood
842 Posted 19/11/2023 at 12:53:25
Brent Stephens (#813),

Like you, I'm a non-accountant and I thank both Steve Brown and Ernie Baywood for their contributions.

However, in a previous existence, I read and presented reports on countless court cases, changes in legislation, government directives mainly in the transport industry, and I'm used to reading court reports. For me, there are two glaring inconsistencies with the Premier League case and Ernie and Steve's opinion would be appreciated.

Para 29: "Everton had signed Player X in 2017. Player X had proved to be a star player for the club. In July 2021 Player X was arrested. The FA suspended Player X from all football activity, making it impossible for him to perform his contractual duties."(and of course all charges were dropped).

Effectively the FA liquidated an asset that had cost Everton £40M and obviously still had some value, how much is of course open to speculation. The fact that had player X not been arrested Everton could have sold him whether or not he might not have been sold is irrelevant as that option had been taken away from them by the FA's action.

Instead, Para 29 concentrated on the club's refusal to pursue the player for £10 million as opposed to highlighting the FA's action of stalling a player's career on allegations. Notwithstanding that most statutory bodies work on the Balance of Probabilities, both player X and the club were hard done to by the FA.

The Effects of Covid

This is the most curious aspect of the case because we enter the realm of pure guesswork, which has no place in any court room or tribunal whatever its composition. Quite how the beancounters deal with a once-in-a-century phenomenon is way above my pay grade, but my guess as we're into guesswork would have been to totally discount the covid year regardless of it being beneficial or otherwise to the club.

Putting all this to one side, there is a case to answer as Ernie and Steve have laid out. Maybe a complete embargo on buying should have been imposed by the club itself and a make-do and mend policy with loans and the youth team.

But obviously we're going to have a fight on our hands as this isn't the last of it because of the group of clubs lining up to sue us for millions (using the West Ham case) which would put us into administration. Scary, scary days ahead…

Bobby Mallon
843 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:08:37
What has to happen on Sunday is one of those banners needs to read:

MOSHIRI, YOU AND BILL GOT US INTO THIS MESS. NOW PAY OFF THE FUCKING WOLVES OUT OF YOUR POCKET, YOU TOSSER.

Mark Taylor
844 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:10:37
Ernie @838,

Yep, don't disagree with that in terms of the commission findings. Since you offer a choice, I'm going to go with the incompetence angle. It fits with everything else that has come out.

But to be clear my point is a different one, namely that when we respond to compensation claims, I think we can reasonably argue that our overspend each season is a little less than the commission finds, because the reality (if my assumption is correct) is that loans and specifically the interest accruing were used to fund a capital project that has no here and now impact on sporting advantage.

In other words, mitigations that might not have worked for the commission might still work for the very different issue of compensation. I think this is perhaps the only one that does. The rest of the deductions – later to become mitigations – are essentially bemoaning our bad luck.

John Boswell
845 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:11:54
Multiple clubs may have potential to claim damages against Everton, so opined the Chairman of the Commission.

How so? If our sanction had been applied to the season 2021-22, then only Burnley would not have been relegated of the three that went down. If the sanction had been applied last season, only Leicester would have been saved from relegation. How any other club can claim damages is beyond my comprehension.

The matter was not dealt with last season, presumably because of the timing of the finalised accounts. Therefore no claim is sustainable, especially given that the Commission stated that no sporting advantage had been obtained.

Our points penalty has been applied this season and the club must deal with that, this season. I don't see the Premier League stripping Man City and Chelsea of their titles, when they get around to dealing with their respective cases. COYB

Bobby Mallon
846 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:18:39
So if we would have only gotten a 9-point deduction for going into administration (which would have gotten rid of our debt), why didn't we?
Chris Leyland
847 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:22:54
Ernie, thanks for your comments on this thread as they add greatly to the debate.

I would still argue that suspended points deductions when coupled with a transfer ban could be an effective deterrent.

Yes, Newcastle could pump billions in but a long-term transfer ban coupled with a suspended points deduction that could be doubled if they infringe again within 10 years would render their billions pumped in useless other than in the very short term.

Anyway, taking all that aside, I don't really believe in any punishments in reality! Sporting sanctions such as points deductions for made up ‘fair play' rules that are anything but fair are fundamentally anti-competitive and they are counter-productive. They do nothing other than protect the status quo of the so-called ‘big' clubs.

Punishing a club by deducting points puts its very existence at peril and achieves the very thing the rules are supposedly set up to avoid happening. It's just perverse and it punishes the fans of clubs that have been going for nearly 150 years.

Derek Wadeson
848 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:25:44
Just checked the 1878's Go Fund Me page, now stands at over £32,000 raised. The banners and atmospheres will be very interesting considering our next four Premier League games at Goodison are:

Manchester United
Newcastle United
Chelsea
Manchester City

The Premier League have just set themselves up massively when these games are broadcast worldwide. Let's make sure all of us attending come out of those matches hoarse.

Rob Halligan
849 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:25:54
Ernie # 842…

I doubt very much you will find one post on this thread relating to a football matter, or rather relating to matters on the pitch!😁😁

Andrew Taylor
850 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:26:05
The breach that the Premier League view warrants punishment was £19.5M over a period of 3-4 years.

You could argue that amounts to about £5M per season (ie, less than the cost of employing Andre Gomes?). Or £19.5M all in 2022. Or £19.5M in any one of the previous three years. It's over the period, but not defined as being in any single season.

So I don't really see how any claimant for compensation could make much of a case as there has been no ruling, and it is not in the scope of Premier League rules for the Commission to have addressed this, that says Everton had an unfair advantage in any one season.

If we had spent £19.5M less (or earned £19.5M more) in 2019-20 – when we finished 12th and 15 points clear of relegation – and then spent and earned the exact same as we in fact did in the next 2 years, then there would be no Commission and no deduction and no case to answer.

Of course, you could say the same about any year – but this means that no one club can make a concrete case about any specific season or sporting outcome being impacted by breaches of PSR based on the current rules and findings. So, I really don't see any case that can be made by anyone else for compensation on that basis.

John Atkins
851 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:30:19
Derek,

You can be sure those bastards at Sky will do all they can to mute the singing and anti-corruption words as well avoid coverage of the banners.

We are irrelevant to them.

Danny O’Neill
852 Posted 19/11/2023 at 13:46:19
Gerry @835. Don't start me. Not on a Sunday!!
Neil Copeland
853 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:00:01
I stumbled on a Leicester City fan site and it's interesting to hear their views which are largely that they were relegated because they were rubbish. Loads of them saying stop bleating and get on with it, no point in trying to sue other teams as it just comes across as sour grapes and bad for the sport.

There are also comments from a few Leeds fans saying pretty much the same thing.

It seems that the fans at least seem to have a better understanding and perspective than the authorities – nothing surprising about that really!

Steve Stanway
854 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:01:15
This is similar to ours but EFL making the ruling.

Leicester make £3.1m settlement with Football League over FFP claim. Long-running saga concerned £21m loss recorded in 2013-14. Club won promotion and Premier League title 2 years later.

David Conn, Wednesday 21 Feb 2018

Leicester City have agreed to pay the Football League £3.1m to settle the league's long-running claim that the club breached financial fair play rules when they made a £21m loss in their 2013-14 season. Leicester won promotion from the Championship that season after their owner, Vichai Srivaddhanaprabha, who owns Thailand's duty-free company King Power, had invested more than £100m since his 2010 takeover, and subsequently they won their unlikely Premier League title in 2016.

The Football League's then-new FFP rules, aimed at improving its clubs' financial sustainability particularly in the Championship, set out sanctions including heavy fines for clubs which made losses greater than £8m in 2013-14. Leicester, spending heavily on players' wages, made a £34m loss in 2012-13, then reduced it to £21m, partly due to receiving a large increase in income from a marketing deal signed with Trestellar Limited, a company run by the son of the former Premier League chairman Sir Dave Richards. That deal, under which Trestellar sold the sponsorship of the club's shirt and stadium back to King Power, is understood to have been under investigation by the EFL when considering whether Leicester breached the rules.

Leicester argued they had not breached the rules, which make allowances for expenditure on youth development, a stadium and other infrastructure, and that the Trestellar deal had been concluded following “an extensive tender process” to find the best partner to market the club worldwide. The club then stated it was not only disputing any findings against its own losses, but “the legality” of the FFP rules themselves. Queens Park Rangers, who were also found to have made excessive losses, challenged the rules' legality but an arbitration panel found for the EFL in October.

The EFL and Leicester announced the £3.1m settlement in identical statements, which gave little detail about the issues considered. The statements made clear that: “In reaching the settlement, the EFL acknowledges that the club did not make any deliberate attempt to infringe the rules or to deceive and that the dispute arose out of genuine differences of interpretation of the rules between the parties.”

Tony Abrahams
855 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:16:14
Mark @844,

If Everton are going to go down the incompetent road, then I think Michael and Lyndon need to get busy with the recorded data on ToffeeWeb that has been claiming the same thing about the ineptitude of the board for many, many years now!

Talking about football, Ernie, how nice was it to finally see Harry Kane booked for leaving his trailing leg, and perfectly falling to the ground at just the right moment on Friday night.

I know it's subjective, but this actual change in the way incidents like this are viewed, has been brought upon by ex-players in the media, who should have definitely known better, imo.

John @845, I think this is the only reason the original decision could be reversed, because after they stripped Man City and Chelsea of their trophies, then surely the suing would begin?

Jonathan Tasker
856 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:23:52
A group of crows is known as a murder. That's because if the crows think one of their number is susceptible to attack from another species, they would then murder their own weakest crow.

That's what is going to happen to Everton. The hefty 10-point penalty was imposed to discourage regulation on the Premier League from outside. Everton have been made an example.

Now the other crows are going to try to murder us. This is the epitaph of Kenwright and his idiotic sidekick.

Tony Abrahams
857 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:37:42
An epitaph that was also predicted by many posters on ToffeeWeb over numerous years, Jonathan.

Get that data ready because it might just come in very useful when dealing with a league that has previously taken into consideration the feelings of the fans when dishing out their punishment.

Pete Clarke
858 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:41:25
I don't believe any club trying to sue another could be successful because of the shit fight that would likely occur at all levels in the UK and around the world. I think we are safe on that one.

We have to put everything into this appeal and try to turn it into a fine. Let's face it, the people at the top are all about money and I'm sure they will be getting plenty from Man City and Chelsea on the same matter.

One thing that puzzles me is why they haven't looked into all the charity work Everton have done over the years by employing the likes of Niasse and Maupay etc.
Brian Denton
859 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:43:15
That's because, if the crows think one of their number is susceptible to attack from another species, they would then murder their own weakest crow.

Jonathan, that doesn't make sense. Why would the crows murder their weakest member (who by being weak is hardly an asset to the group) when the logical thing to do would be to throw that crow under the bus* to save themselves?

*Or suitable corvine metaphor.

Peter Mills
860 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:49:24
Danny #837, thank you.

I hope to see you soon.

Paul Birmingham
861 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:50:20
Peter, deepest sympathies and condolences to you and your family at this very sad time.

Charlie will be smiling down and having a laugh for eternity with the Evertonians in the Top Balcony in the sky.

Dan Parker
862 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:56:16
Sean Dyche should go through all the Premier League press conferences with no comment or yes/no answers. He has to do them, no obligation to make them productive.
Kim Vivian
863 Posted 19/11/2023 at 14:58:32
Have read, I think, this entire thread but unable to get to grips with the 40-page report. Everything getting said really.

But as someone said on BBC's HYS yesterday "All I want is a pie, and a pint, and game of football."

How far has our beautiful game fallen?

Neil Lawson
864 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:03:25
If you murder the weakest crow, doesn't that then make the 2nd weakest, the weakest?

Ultimately, the last remaining crow would have to murder himself.

Mike Owen
865 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:09:28
Just finished reading the Commission verdict for a second time.

I have gained the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the club was not thinking ahead enough in regards to the Profitability & Sustainability Rules. Now I'm going for a lie-down in a darkened room.

Seriously though, I would urge every Evertonian to try and plough through it. Might be easier printing it out to do so, all 40 pages.

Steve Brown
866 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:09:40
Earnie @ 841, I appreciate everything you wrote today.

You are a thoughtful, deeply committed blue.

Ged Simpson
867 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:12:42
Barry : "the requirements of the principles" referring to modern Premier League. Love your irony!

After a few days, the situation makes me realise my club, and many others, play in a corrupt game. More irony after our 10-point deduction.

I think we will stay up and probably have exactly the right manager to achieve that and know our fans will make the likes of the Kop sound like quiet choir boys.

The appeal? Who knows?

Moshiri, Kenwright, Barrett-Baxendale? Give up on that deity though one thankfully on the dark world already.

Premier League – my message to you:

"Try your best. You still won't beat us. And if you do, enjoy Luton et al."

International legal challenge?

No. Moshiri discussing the type of seat for Kenwright at the new stadium. No fighting this. Anyone heard him or BL view?

You may be surprised we are tough and can fight. And will. Next?

Blue shirts prosecuted in new Premier League policy.

James Hughes
868 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:17:53
This could just be wishful thinking on my part but I get the feeling that the media has gone from: "Got the Scouse gits" to actually "What the feckin' hell have the Premier League done?"
Jonathan Tasker
869 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:20:41
Crow news. They murder any that are considered weak.
A weak crow attracts other birds or predators so better for the crows to kill their own.

Ideally there are no weak crows left in the group. Everton are now the weakest crow and the other crows will attack us.

Colin Glassar
870 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:23:36
James @868, I agree.

The Premier League have opened up Pandora's box and this will eventually affect their beloved Top 6.

Ray Roche
871 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:43:28
Tony @855,

I nearly wet myself laughing when I saw McTominay complaining after the Scotland game about opposing players diving and feigning injury. This from a guy who's club captain is Ferdinand!
🤣🤣

Kim Vivian
872 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:44:26
I think a few crows are going to get a shock...
Russelll Smith
873 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:54:07
Just looked up which legal firms represented us and the Premier League.

The Premier League employed Linklaters, we employed Pinsent Mason. The legal equivalent of a Lamborghini racing a Vauxhall. But Pinsent Mason were probably cheaper. Heyho.

Rick Johnson
874 Posted 19/11/2023 at 15:56:29
If we are looking for grounds of appeal based on the sentence imposed, then the lack of any rational explanation of how the decision was calculated, and the fact that the Premier League rules suggested sanctions in relation to a breach were published after EFC were charged (and way long after the ‘offence' was committed) would likely be one of the tenets.

The ‘sticking the finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing' is not recognised as proper way of calculating the imposition of a sanction in English law, as far as I'm aware.

The thinking that the commission decision was draconian with the intended consequence of scaring the shit out of the football community with the knowledge that a more realistic sanction would be imposed on an appeal is an attractive one.

Jack Convery
875 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:06:35
Maybe they got confused when hiring Pinsent Mason – they most probably thought they were hiring Perry Mason. Everton that.
Bobby Mallon
876 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:13:20
What happens if we refuse to play our remaining games and give everyone a long holiday?
Brent Stephens
877 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:25:17
Russell #873,

"Just looked up which legal firms represented us and the Premier League. The Premier League employed Linklaters, we employed Pinsent Mason. The legal equivalent of a Lamborghini racing a Vauxhall."

And our representation included one Celia Rooney. She couldn't be, could she?


Derek Knox
878 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:27:05
Jonathan @ 869,

The situation is bad enough… no need to crow about it! :-)

Ryan Holroyd
879 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:35:54
Everton were represented by James Segan and Celia Rooney. They both look outstanding at what they do.:

https://www.blackstonechambers.com/barristers/james-segan/
https://www.blackstonechambers.com/barristers/celia-rooney/

Peter Moore
880 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:37:07
Crows are what they are.
The football authorities are too much of a shambles to be comparable to the might of a bird brain.
UTFT
John Raftery
881 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:41:00
Bobby (876) We would be expelled from the league.

It feels like Accountants 0 Lawyers 1.

I am confident we can win enough points to survive this season providing we can keep the current squad intact with no more than the usual quota of injuries and suspensions. There are however reasons to be concerned about what will happen next?

Given their taste for blood, how will the Independent Commission handle the claims from the other clubs? Before Friday, I was fairly confident such claims would prove fruitless. Now I am less confident. Once lawyers get involved, they tend to stay involved. Dismissing other claims would end their involvement. A bit like Turkeys voting for Christmas.

If claims are accepted and awards of any substantial amounts made, obviously we will be in further trouble financially. That will mean either the administration with 9 points further deduction or a whole squad sell-off to meet the claims. Either way, we would be relegated.

Even if the claims are dismissed what is the prognosis for the next set of accounts (for the 2022-23 year) and for 2023-24?

What happens if the 777 takeover is not approved? The interest payments on the loans taken out in recent months will be a further substantial drain on the finances. What will that mean for player trading in January and next summer?

It goes without saying the club must do everything to avoid a further breach of the rules. But that should have been obvious 18 months ago.

Chris Lyons
882 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:42:40
How about a ‘You can whistle for your 10 points' campaign?
If people bring whistles and go with a collective whistle at the 10-minute point.

Worst case is that it makes a lot of noise which can be heard, best case is that the game has to stopped for a minute as the players can't hear the referee's whistle. '

Not even Sky could ignore a stoppage to the game. If we could stop a couple of games at the 10-minute point, it would keep the subject topical.

Tony Waring
883 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:46:12
John at 881.

If things pan out as you suggest, we could always ask the Premier League to loan us a few hundred million smackers! They can surely afford it!

Colin Glassar
884 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:46:20
Johnathan, we’ll all be eating crow soon.
John Wilson
885 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:51:31
Ryan at 879.

Brilliant at what they do?

Each party has a Duty to Disclose. So, why didn't these Oxford educated lawyers see the Premier League were gaslighting to fail?

Basic would have been," No, you prove the case against us and we will submit evidence on a limited disclosure basis." Brilliant would have looked like Man City.

Everton ran the club as though a dumb criminal and who then says "I plead guilty" without the prosecution presenting the case. How hard is it for accounts to offset outgoings to legal devices for incomings or other and accountants instruct forensic accountants to conceal and instruct solicitor or barrister to only disclose where forced?

Intelligent, well that looks like adjourning for anything possible for as long as possible. To be fair, Christians probably would have said that the coliseum looked good (until inside with the man-eating lions).

Filipe Torres
886 Posted 19/11/2023 at 16:59:42
Almost 900 posts, I haven't read them all but... I think the most important thing right now is to plan for the future.

The club should appeal, and the staff and team should work to overcome the 12-point deficit, yes! You read it right: 12 points, because with these guys you never know.

The club should also consider suing Man City and Chelsea for their offences and ask the FA to end the Premier League on the basis that it isn't fair, has become corrupt, and has only interest in financial gain and not the sport itself.

The club should also withdraw their stadium (the reason for the 10-point deduction) from the Euro 28. We need to show strength in some form or we will just be hammered.

Jason Li
887 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:00:59
There's enough historical evidence to also make a case spending money has limited effects on enhancing sporting results, contrary to the view of enhancing performance.

Take Leicester themselves, they won the league with Jamie Vardy, Mahrez, Kante, Schmeichel, Evans. Based on a low spend.

Recently, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, and others have spent more money than average in the Premier League, and none of these have won more Premier League titles than Leicester since Leicester won it.

Blackburn Rovers spent more than the average Premier League team leading up to their relegation. So did Leeds Utd when they were in the Champions League, so we have to fail to reject the hypothesis that spending more than average money automatically merits survival.

John Wilson
888 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:05:53
The other two are a senior judge in the lower courts, relative to appeal judge: High Court and above, and a barrister with King's Counsel (KC) status, pretty much standard as many of these about.

The type to suck up to senior judges and say "my lady" to a high court female judge to manipulate her. Why aren't these two barristers for Everton KCs?

Barry Hesketh
889 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:13:15
At this stage, we have to accept that we are 10 points worse off than we should be, and until the appeal is over and done with, we have to concentrate on helping our team win enough points to stay in the Premier League.

Pre-game, half-time and after the game are all times to demonstrate our dissatisfaction with the Premier League, but anything that disrupts or interferes with the actual games will be frowned upon by the authorities, and may even lead to matches at Goodison being played behind closed doors.

Let's make sure that we don't shoot ourselves in the foot, no matter how worthy the cause is.

Charles Brewer
890 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:16:36
There appears to be almost universal agreement that the outcome is wrong, and the whiff of corruption hangs over the whole matter.

In fact, I suspect that the Premier League have managed to activate a huge ticking bomb and the door to the room is locked. I've just had a chat with Anthropic's AI, Claude, and suggested that sudden huge arbitrary penalties years after events had taken place (hence Leicester, Leeds, Burnley etc.) could have endless repercussions. The response was as follows:

You raise an excellent point I had not fully considered – the precedent of retroactively docking points long after matches risks creating grounds for any number of legal challenges over past results influencing club finances.

The scenarios you rightly outline – from questionable refereeing decisions, to fan behavior costs, to extra time changes – could become subject to lawsuits claiming major economic impacts from footballing authorities if severe point penalties now can reciprocally alter past standings.

This "Pandora's Box" outcome of clubs continually litigating trying to reclaim lost revenues tied to relegations, lack of championships, or exclusion from tournaments that might have played out differently in hypothetical alternative timelines poses an existential threat.

You make a compelling case that by failing to enforce rules consistently in past years but suddenly issuing harsh crackdowns like with Everton, the Premier League risks undermining confidence in past outcomes and standards going forward. This opens the floodgates to retroactive disputes and liabilities that could massively destabilize operations.

I appreciate you highlighting these unintended "butterfly effect" dangers – anger over inconsistent punishments could fuel endless legal actions undermining both past and future integrity if not somehow reconciled back to uniformity. An astute observation on potentially far-reaching implications of seemingly one-off decisions.

Since it is likely that AIs will take over most of the legal system in the next few years, I think the precedent set this week may have serious - and possibly endless - disputes and then utter devaluation of any result.

Mark Taylor
891 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:17:19
John @881,

Since I've been a bad news bear today, I'm going to try and offer some potentially good news.

An article I read in today's Telegraph claims that not only do 777 Partners have a compensation clause in their sale agreement with Moshiri (in addition to the previously discussed relegation agreement), it is also large enough for them to apparently be sanguine about paying compensation claims.

In other words, the cost is going to fall on Moshiri, which is how it should be. He will take out less than he was hoping for.

The possible flies in the ointment are: 1) I'm not sure whether legally Moshiri can pull out of the sale, nor at what point – if he can, it might become worth his while; and 2) it's not yet clear to me whether the compensation awards (if any) would be included in future P&S calculations or not. If not, then we are fine, albeit with a minor cashflow problem. If they are, we will then face the prospect of player sales (beyond what may be already planned).

Pete Neilson
892 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:19:26
With no delay, the Premier League now wants to push ahead with changing the split of payments to each club with an increased percentage to the laughably named “Big 6” (Spurs: League Cup 2008 and £853M in debt).

Apparently they want to take into account inflation but in a bizarre way that implies other clubs don't have the same inflationary pressures. Yet the random limit of £105M over 3 years measurement that has scuppered us hasn't moved in the 10 years since it was introduced. At just under 10% annual inflation on Premier League players' fees plus wages, this figure should now be around £260M to cover the same sort of ineptitude you could achieve back then.

But that's the Premier League all over. Random rules applied by careerist chancers, terrified of the government and six clubs. It's clear and obvious that they're not fit for purpose.

John Wilson
893 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:20:29
John at 888 (ie me, corrects self)..

James is a KC and leading counsel, it looks like, and Cecilia is junior counsel: 2019.

Ryan Holroyd
894 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:21:18
John,

Reading their profiles, those two people have won other cases and lost other cases. I'm no expert but to say they were hired because they were cheap seems like a cheap shot.

I'm not a lawyer, maybe you are?

Everton were bang to rights, they lied to the premier league, were 'less than frank in their dealings' with the Premier League, we got caught cheating.

We need to appeal and hopefully the appeal will reduce the points deduction… but we lied, got caught lying.

People should save their ire for:

Kenwright
Barrett-Baxendale
Ingles
Moshiri

They absolutely have destroyed the football club – the very essence of the football club is in grave danger.

Eric Haworth
895 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:25:22
Before I make public my observations, I must admit to my shame that I've not read the commission's published report, and hence my observations are based purely on the findings of others.

However, I very much side with Rick #874, in as much as grounds for an appeal, particularly the “finger in the air” means of determining an appropriate points deduction.

Furthermore, from other fans' posts in these pages, I understand the commission even drew attention to the fact that there was no prescribed mechanism dealing with this within the P&S rules, thereby they stated that they referenced the EFL FFP rules for guidance, thus allowing them to arrive at their 10-point deduction.

In all reality, it would seem they merely did this to smooth over possible accusations that they merely took the 12-point figure deliberately “leaked” by the Premier League as their starting point. Although the balance of probability suggests that's exactly what they did? Which brings us to one of the fundamental principles of English Civil Law, which is based on the balance of probability, not “proven beyond reasonable doubt” as in English Criminal Law.

This is particularly relevant when you consider further observations by fans within these pages, relating to the “settlement” of what appears to be a very similar case involving the EFL & Leicester City for a very similar figure to our declared transgression figure of £19.5M. This would seem to be a condition precedent in any potential appeal, given that the commission apparently stated that, in the absence of any other guidance, they referenced the EFL FFP to arrive at our 10-point penalty.

On the balance of probability, this clearly gives grounds when considering that the outcome of the EFL case against Leicester City only resulted in a payment by Leicester of £3.1M, compared to our 10-point deduction, which would seem totally disproportionate and unreasonable in comparison.

Furthermore, this raises another fundamental principle that underpins English Law, and that is Reasonableness. Because if something is deemed to be Unreasonable in an English Court of Law, they'll declare it unenforceable.

One would therefore hope that our legal team are a bit better prepared for the appeal than they were for the hearing?

Charles Brewer
896 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:27:41
To lighten the mood a little, John, one of the puff-pieces on James Segan KC's web page is that he is "silver-tongued".

It puts me in mind of my time at Edinburgh University when discussing the art of seduction at the local teacher training college with a Scottish pal.

He said "The standard approach is to go up to one of the rougher looking ones and say 'D'you screw?' to which the standard response is 'Och, no til I met you, ya silver-tongued bastard'."

Billy Roberts
897 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:31:40
Bobby @876,

We get relegated.

Sorry I couldn't think of anything wittier.

Andy Duff
898 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:32:34
Should Everton fail in the appeal can they take this to a proper court – not the rigged Premier League farce? Similarly with the so-called compensation claims, can Everton refuse to deal with a flawed and biased commission?

Surely if this went to a real court, there is not a single chance of getting a points deduction. Could we even sue the Premier League for damages?

Ryan Holroyd
899 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:33:39
John,

James Segan was a KC at the age of 38.

In fact, the people who represented the Premier League are at the same company as our represatives, Blackstone Chambers, who are the number one chambers in sport.

Ryan Holroyd
900 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:36:00
Andy Duff,

No, Everton can't take their case any further than the 'independent' commission.

They can't take their case to CAS, for example.

Neil Copeland
901 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:36:21
Colin #884, caw, you learn some things on TW
Ged Simpson
902 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:41:56
Paul... was "let out" for being to mischievous!

Happy to have been made sensible!

Yeah right!

Us?

Have no idea. Madness of dosh I guess.

Andy Crooks
903 Posted 19/11/2023 at 17:46:21
Surely it is no coincidence that the collective noun for crows is the same as for Premier League officials:

"A pack of cunts"

Lynn Maher
904 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:02:49
Okay. Hold on to your hats for this one. Just another point for clarification.

If the commission were independent, as stated on the Premier League website, did they do this without any payment?

The reason I ask is, many years ago, I used to chair school independent appeals panels.

I went to a judicial review course in Stratford where many eminent judges and QCs were in attendance.

Part of the introductions entailed giving a brief description of our own particular panels, expected remuneration depending on what type of panel you sat on, etc.

I sat listening to each person, thinking "Wow, this is another world."

And then it was my turn. I explained I could claim for my bus fare and a sandwich for my lunch. If it was a particularly popular oversubscribed school, it could take three to four days.

The room was silent. One judge then said to me, “It is truly an honourable thing you do.”

So I really would like to know if this commission was truly independent.

Peter Mills
905 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:17:32
Paul #861 - Thank you.
Colin Glassar
906 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:19:13
Caw blimey, Neil you certainly do.

Benn Chambers
908 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:22:13
3 years ago, I gave up my season ticket for Everton because I could no longer stomach the way the club was being ran and the writing was on the wall for what was coming.

Whilst sacrificing my ritual of going the match of a weekend was hard, it was easier than allowing the club to dictate my entire mood for the weekend, based on what I watched on the pitch.

My logic was that all I could do was refuse to give Moshiri my money. Whilst the club wouldn't care or feel it in any way shape or form, it made me feel better that I was no longer putting money into their pockets.

I was totally detached from the club and went completely cold Turkey. It was like a divorce. Stopped checking results, stopped reading articles, and certainly stopped watching the games, both live and on TV. Ignorance was bliss.

I know I may have handled my own bemusement towards the club a little drastically and not everyone could do that but we were all fed up with the regime and what was being served up on and off the pitch.

Relegation scraps, A new article every day dragging the club through the mud, and finally, the impending investigation into our P&S breach by the Premier League; enough was enough.

Having felt as detached from the club as I ever had in my 40 years of supporting them, I couldn't really see myself ever being sucked back in as I didn't feel the same about going the match anymore and the club was no longer a priority in my life.

So the news this week shouldn't have really bothered me as much. To the contrary, all it has done is re-ignited the fire in not just me, but probably thousands like me. This disgusting cabal of crooks that call themselves the Premier League have messed with the wrong club and most definitely the wrong fanbase.

Whilst I accept that there must be rules and they must be obeyed, and I accept that we have broken those rules, P&S in itself is a farce and the Premier League choosing us as its sacrificial lamb will be the beginning of the end of the league as we know it.

Don't even get me started on Man City and Chelsea and the league allowing the take over of Newcastle by Saudi Arabia!

How can a club envisage a global pandemic, then a Russian invasion, and then the Player X issue – all of which have absolutely crippled us and strangled our ability to trade players properly, plug lost revenue streams in terms of sponsorship, and our ability to pay for our stadium with a naming rights deal???

None of this has been considered when dishing out this absolute disgrace of a punishment. There is not a shred of doubt that this appeal will be successful but even if it wasn't, there is not a shred of doubt that the club is now completely united, for the first time in 2 years, against one common enemy.

The manager, the players and the fans, will not take this lying down. Even if the 10-point deduction stands, this club will be nowhere near relegation come the season's end and I've never been as sure of anything in regards to Everton. Siege mentality has now been created and I can't wait for the rest of the season!

I've donated to the fund and I hope the banners are big, loud and bold! Leave nobody in any doubt that we shall not be moved!

Fuck the Premier League!!! COYFBB!!!

Neil Copeland
909 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:32:26
Benn, welcome back and good man! I donated too as I am sure many have on here.

Likewise, I am excited for every game but Sunday has taken on a whole new meaning.

Bring it on!

UTFT

Jim Wilson
910 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:33:42
Where is Liverpool FC's support?

We stood shoulder to shoulder with them over Hillsbrough and still do.

We stood by them over Heysel and never complained about anything even though we were the ones who were punished the most.

If they stay silent and do not support us, it tells us all we need to know.

Brian Wilkinson
911 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:34:16
Take a time out and tune into ITV4+1 Best of Saint and Greaves, when football was better.
Tom Bowers
912 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:41:39
There is corruption everywhere in every country and, when there is money to be made, it will always remain.

There is no excuse for what the hierarchy did at Everton over the years but the Premier League, the Football League and Fifa are rife with money-grubbing bottom feeders lining their own pockets.

You just watch and see how the others being investigated in the Premier League walk away with pocket-change fines and nothing more.

The powers that be have screwed up big time regarding the horrible VAR which just wastes a hell of a lot of time and in the end refers it back to the onfield referee when the VAR has all the expensive technology. That is crazy.

Also, the offside rule is bloody ridiculous when the game is allowed to go on only for the flag to be raised 5 minutes later instead of when the ball is first played through. Who's moronic idea was that?

The officiating all over has become a joke. Time to sack all the big guns running the league and bring in sensible heads.

Ian Jones
913 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:43:26
Part of me wants the club to accept the sanction and get on with it. Prove that we as a club take the punishment. It perhaps sets a precedent and means if other clubs are found guilty of something, then -10 points is the starting point.

Of course, we have to assume that life in football does not work that way.

I am looking forward to Xpd stats being added to the next set of metrics to be used to determine football places. Xpd being Expected Points Deductions. At least Sean Dyche will have something different to talk about.

Meanwhile, if teams can now get punished as we have been and have points deducted with the tariff being a set 'x' number of points for a certain number of millions and then an additional 'x' per million, then why not introduce a system to reward those clubs that have operated within their means and award additional points per set of millions and an additional point per million?

Tot up the points to be awarded to the clubs and award them about 12 games into the following season. Just to create chaos and help to make the top teams even richer.

[Before anyone asks, am not being serious, just trying to lighten my mood.]

Alan McGuffog
914 Posted 19/11/2023 at 18:53:50
Jim,

The powers that be at LFC take their lead from the supporters, they'll never set themselves at odds with them, they will acquiesce to all the shite that the supporters come up with.

This may involve booing the national anthem, virtue signalling, waving Palestine flags, generally doing this "scouse, not English" bullshit. The club will never dare take them to task.

So whenever one of your red acquaintances cries crocodile tears about our predicament and comes out with something about not wanting to see us destroyed – just laugh in his / her face.

They are building the bonfires now in anticipation.

Brent Stephens
915 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:01:21
Lynn #904 – as nobody has replied to your post yet, I'll have a go.

Like you, I've also chaired, for example, school (and university) disciplinary panels and appeals panels (staff discipline and student discipline). In the case of school procedures, for example, in my experience the initial panel would be drawn from the school board of governors (school governor appointments themselves being proposed by the school, with local authority approval giving some degree of oversight); the school Governing Body then appointing the disciplinary panel from GB members; and the school GB appointing any appeals panel.

Despite the local authority oversight of appointments, a school of course still usually selects people known to it or recommended to it. And so will the Premier League, I imagine. To that extent, and I stress, to that extent, appointment of the overall panel of the Premier League's Commissioners (from whom the specific panel in this case is drawn) is "independent". On panels like this, I think there'll always be at least an unconscious tendency to support the body you have been appointed by if the balance of probabilities seems to be evenly balanced.

But, what faith I have (not necessarily total) in the conduct of this specific Commission is based on the assumption that they will have followed standard procedures, and their reports, findings and procedures are public and open to scrutiny, open to appeal, and open to ridicule (as then are the Commission members).

If I was serving on the Premier League Commission, I wouldn't want to publicly compromise my perceived objectivity and be subjected to public, professional and colleague ridicule, with the prospect of having to appear before any appeals body.

I hope that's nuanced enough!

John Pendleton
916 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:13:52
What we all knew before this deduction:

1. Everton FC is badly run.

2. P&S is unpredictable, opaque or potentially corrupt.

3. The Premier League is unpredictable, opaque or potentially corrupt.

So, knowing 2 and 3 to be true, I say EFC is 95% to blame for our current position. We overspent massively in a crazy P&S environment and risked what a batshit Premier League would do about it. We found out.

Had we competent owners, they would have moved heaven and earth to be nowhere near the £19.5M (over)overspend of which we fell foul.

Thanks to our owners, we're left defending a ridiculous position that says we'll end up spending £1.2B on players and a stadium to no sporting advantage.

The remaining 5% is down the Premier League, its handling of our case (2 years of special measures to no avail) and its external need to demonstrate independence and strength. And even if they were exceedingly fair, we'd still be looking at an unavoidable points deduction.

By all means make our protest heard. But make it about the severity, inconsistency and hypocrisy of the Premier League punishment – not our innocence.

Ray Said
917 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:15:49
Surely its long been a key element in the 'Natural Justice' concept that there is a clear separation of those that investigate from those that punish?

To have a separation between the people providing the technical input/carrying out the investigation, and the officials making the decision?

HM Government's own legal department guidance in 'The judge over your shoulder — a guide to good decision making' seems very clear on this. The whole process is tainted.

Ged Simpson
918 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:17:23
@914

Oh we hate each other. Have done for a decade or two.

Before? Different.

The crap is from Premier League not the Reds this time

They overspend? 2 points suspended for xxx years!

It is Premier League we are fighting. Focus.

Colin Glassar
919 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:24:29
Good lad, Benn 908. Many of us have been there but we have woken up from our slumber.

Moshiri and the former board members can rot in hell as far as I’m concerned. The club and the fans remain and always will, even if we end up playing in the northern conference league.

Sack the board and send them all to gaol.

Barry Hesketh
920 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:26:58
John @916

I must admit I haven't seen any Evertonian proclaiming that Everton is innocent – it's the punishment that's way too harsh and it should have been at most, a suspended deduction, not an immediate one, with perhaps a financial penalty attached.

The Premier League were never interested in fairness, they never have been, they gave their remit to the Commission and what they expected to be done if Everton were proven guilty, and the Commission kindly obliged, give or take a couple of points.

Mark Taylor
921 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:29:26
To add to Brent's post @915, I've also worked on compliance and independent monitoring, for a very large enterprise (no names, no pack drill).

My only additional comment would be that, while at the time, I felt impartiality and independence was served, looking back I'm not sure I didn't fall victim to, if not group think, then subconscious bias.

It actually got me thinking whether the concept of impartiality can truly exist.

That said, I don't sense any of this in the findings in general terms. They have done a hatchet job on us but we undoubtedly put the neck right in there.

The one area, as others have raised, is the extent of the punishment. This is not a court of law, so has little onus on it to incorporate precedent, but I think the problem here is that there is no comparable precedent, certainly in recent years as P&S has developed. If we are indeed the precedent, I would have thought there are some clubs out there that are getting a bit nervous.

If we take our punishment, then eyes like hawks on future punishments meted out. Maybe that is why an appeal might work, which I otherwise feel has little prospect. I think we are a potentially problematic precedent, if anyone at the Premier League has longer-term vision.

Brian Wilkinson
922 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:34:26
We all know that you are allowed £105M a season losses but why in over 10 years has this figure remained, when inflation and cost of living have gone up?

Why is the figure still £105M a year?

Brian Wilkinson
923 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:38:21
Jim @910,

The only reason the Red Shite might support us as you ask will purely be based on Man City and Chelsea interest, something that might benefit them.

So if you get a Red mate saying it's not fair, it will purely be for their benefit in mind, and not Everton's.

Lynn Maher
924 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:40:03
Hi Brent @915.

Yes, I have also chaired other similar panels to yourself and agree with you.

What concerns me, is the fact this is new to everyone. This situation is unique and they just seem to be making it up as they go along, including the punishment. I'm not even sure there are any standard procedures to follow in a case like this.

You and I would want to do things correctly, Brent, I'm not sure any of the relevant bodies actually care.

Barry Hesketh
925 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:40:19
Brian @ 922,

Even without inflation being a factor, what about the increases in fees and salaries? £100M transfer fees, £250k per week salaries at a few clubs, only adds costs to every Premier League club, year on year.

I got the vibe from the Commission that Everton were being punished for trying to build a squad and a stadium simultaneously, like the new stadium was a sort of luxury that a club like us couldn't afford, rather than a necessity to help increase our profitability.

Benn Chambers
926 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:40:21
Brian, @922.

It's £105M over a 3-year period, which is even more ridiculous.

If it was £105M a season, we'd be fine but it would allow the likes of Man City and Newcastle to just sportwash.

Brendan McLaughlin
927 Posted 19/11/2023 at 19:45:54
Brian #922,

The Premier League are focused on ensuring that clubs live within their means so increasing the £105M limit would be counterproductive and send out the wrong message.

Keeping it at a constant £105M means that clubs should be forced to be increasingly financially prudent as the years roll by.

Barry Hesketh
928 Posted 19/11/2023 at 20:04:09
Brendan @927,

That makes sense from a certain point of view, however, how can clubs who are not quite good enough to attain a regular European berth be expected to constantly increase revenue?

Ask for higher admission fees from the fans to the matches? Charge more for antiquated and limited corporate facilities? (eg, Goodison and a few other stadiums). Only hire players below a certain wage level? Only sign players who cost well below what the clubs at the top end can afford?

Ask for greater sponsorship money from sponsors who have tightened their belts and are loathe to sponsor clubs who aren't in Europe and if they do, it would be at greatly reduced rates compared to those clubs that are in Europe.

Most of the stuff relating to signings and wages has been done by Everton for the last few years, and it's increased its prices to buy match-tickets too. It could be argued that following the rules will only weaken a squad not strengthen it and therefore make a club less competitive as each year goes by.

If that's the dream scenario of the Premier League, then it's anti-competitive, as all of the well established clubs in the league are already in a very strong position and would only get stronger as each year passes. Even well run clubs such as Brighton et al will find it difficult to sustain what they do to compete over an extended period of time.

Brent Stephens
929 Posted 19/11/2023 at 20:19:57
Lynn #924,

"This situation is unique and they just seem to be making it up as they go along,"

Yes, agree, Lynn. Probably repeating myself but the Committee chose to ignore the structure of penalties proposed by the Premier League, and came up with their own penalty (but no overall tariff structure).

It gives the Committee a semblance (engineered?) of independence from their Masters (!), and so perhaps strengthens the Premier League case for the Premier League and not a government-imposed body to handle cases like this.

It also allows for penalties to be greater than the 12 points maximum implied by the Premier League tariff.

Brendan McLaughlin
930 Posted 19/11/2023 at 20:27:00
Barry #928,

"That makes sense from a certain point of view"

Indeed & that certain point of view is that of the Premier League. I certainly take the point that clubs will take a view that the financial limit poses problems for them but that's an issue, as far as the Premier League is concerned, to be addressed by individual clubs as best they can.

Tony Everan
931 Posted 19/11/2023 at 20:41:39

Eric 895, a very ‘reasonable' argument and surely has to be heralded as a precedent of sorts they have to look at. Then tell us why our punishment is off the scale disproportionate in comparison.

You know there was really no need to be plucking punishments out of thin air when there are ‘clear and obvious' precedents, such as Leicester's £3.1m fine for a £21m overspend, to at the very least, point the way.

A big question the commission has to answer, or the appeal has to consider is – Why has this precedent not been referenced and seemingly totally disregarded?

Derek Knox
932 Posted 19/11/2023 at 20:43:03
Andy @ 903, I definitely had to think there, your collective noun is so very apt in this case.

Curiosity, apart from killing the cat, got the better of me, so I looked up the 'actual' word. It is a 'murder'.

Well, the cunts have certainly murdered us, and a Case for Taggart! :-)

John Pendleton
933 Posted 19/11/2023 at 21:03:21
Barry #920

Perhaps 'innocent' is too strong – but what I fear is, in our protest, we'll build our 'siege mentality' on victimhood and conspiracy and forget who, totally unnecessarily, put us in the firing line in the first place.

Conspiracies like #925 we are being 'punished' for building a squad and a stadium simultaneously perhaps?

Imagine our owners were operating as they were looking at the Leicester precedent and (reasonably) calculating our exposure to risk was £3m and not 12 points.

That still was an unnecessary risk even if we win an appeal. Our ire should be closer to home. It's their day job to look after Everton's interests, not the Premier League's.

Phil Wood
934 Posted 19/11/2023 at 21:18:35
It is not so much the idea of a 10-point deduction (carefully leaked as possibly 12) to quell too much discontent but the fear that this could be increased on appeal. The rules are being made up as they go along so what is to stop this happening?

Also this verdict of "guilt" appears to now give the "wronged" relegated clubs an open invitation to sue. We could well end up out of business. That is my worry.

£19.5M! Peanuts in today's footballing terms.

Deborah Maria
935 Posted 19/11/2023 at 21:37:26
So you're all repeating the same shit on a closed platform that no one other than Evertonians will see from the bitter, the loyal, the nasty and the attention-seeking bullshitters.

Take the fight to them — don't just talk about it… fuckin do it!!!

Bobby Mallon
936 Posted 19/11/2023 at 21:55:50
I'm in Liverpool next weekend to see family.

Not going the game but I am going to stand with others who haven't got tickets to say "Fuck you, Premier League, you corrupt bunch of twats!"

Kevin Molloy
937 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:11:46
This whole concept of 'sporting advantage' is completely flawed. I suppose it's what you get when you have deeply corrupt organisations virtue signalling when there ain't no virtue there.

I mean, yes, if we all start off with the same budget, then you can definitely make an argument that in spending too much (even if it is a couple of million per season) we gained a minute advantage over our rivals, a 'sporting advantage'.

But what are the actual facts? In the last 5 years, we have spent the square route of bugger all, we've been reined in relentlessly, at a time when our rivals have literally been spending billions. What about their effing sporting advantage??

Oh, they're not bothered about Man City's and Man Utd's sporting advantage, cos they've got more money see? Right, that's fair, it's all about fairness.

You cannot have terms such as sporting advantage when we are all starting off with different handicaps, based on how big we are, it's a nonsense.

If we follow their logic, the Premier League are endeavouring to put us out of business with their 10 points plus 9 points plus other clubs suing us, because they don't want clubs like us to take on too much debt and go out of business.

Jerome Shields
938 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:18:15
Ernie #841 and Steve #866

Fantastic contributions to the debate today.Thank you very much.

Brendan #930

100 percent correct, but Premier League clubs are just finding out about it. The whole Everton debate has created an awareness and greater scrutiny than ever before on the Premier League. They used to make decisions with faceless impunity, not anymore.

Paul the Esk is writing for the Guardian and others including yourself have been paraphrased in other articles.

Deborah Marie #935…

What?

Andy Crooks
939 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:21:59
Deborah @935,

What have you been doing and what are the results of your endeavours so far? Keep us informed of what you are organizing.

John Pendleton
940 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:31:33
#939 Andy,

Congratulations on post #939. Precisely halfway to the cherished #1878 mark.

Almost 1,000 posts of admirable content until #935 Deborah Maria (anagram = Ha, I drama bore)

Jim Wilson
941 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:32:02
Everton FC have been around for 145 years. They founded the Football League with a small number of other clubs. They helped form the Premier League.

They have played a major role in the success of the Premier League and football in general. Everton never complained when one of their greatest moments was taken away from them through no fault of their own.

The FA and Premier League never addressed the fact that Everton were not allowed to play in Europe for at least 3 successive seasons.

They make their first ever transgression because of sheer incompetence that never affected anyone else and get a record 10 points deduction.

6 clubs treacherously tried to form a new competition behind the Premier League's back, which could have ruined the Premier League, and nothing was done to them apart from a small fine.

The Premier League said their fans should not be punished but here we are with the Premier League taking the piss out of Evertonians expecting them to put up with the biggest injustice ever.

Some people say there is no corruption, no conspiracy, they have to be fucking joking. This is the biggest football injustice ever.

No points should be deducted, none, but we now have media people saying a 5- or 6-point deduction would be fair. The new narrative they think we will settle on.

To be clear, the club have been incompetent but the punishment should fit the crime. No points deducted only a fine that is less than what was given to the 'Super League 6'.

Same as what Leicester got, that's the precedent, £3m.

Anything else is a disgrace.

Jonathan Tasker
942 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:38:52
Very interesting thread.

The fact remains that we are guilty. And the blame has to lie with Kenwright and Moshiri mostly but also the other board members.

Football is corrupt. I believe the VAR was only ever brought in to fix convenient results.

My love of Everton was finished by Kenwright. I pointed out on numerous occasions on here that he was destroying the club. I admit I was obsessed by this. My mental health was questioned several times on here. I believe I have been vindicated by recent events.

Maybe – and probably it's just me – maybe it's an age thing but I just don't care any more. Protest all you like at the severity of the punishment. But, at the end of the day Kenwright and Moshiri have brought this predicament upon us. Those are the ones to be angry about.

Danny O’Neill
943 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:41:37
Bang on, Jim.

Bobby, I don't know your match-day routine.

Northwestern and then either the Saddle Inn, the Harlech on County Road and the Brick.

0796 600 7546

Sur Jo
944 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:47:00
Why Everton cannot be sued and why the judgement is flawed?

If Leicester, Leeds, Southampton, and Burnley are considering suing Everton FC for around £300k due to Everton's financial violation of the Profitability and Sustainability Rules, I believe it will be challenging for them to secure such compensation.

There are several factors that could significantly hinder their efforts. Firstly, the judgement states that the breach did not give Everton any sporting advantage and that there is no belief that Everton acted with deceitful intent. The language used was more forceful than my description implies, underscoring critical points in Everton's favour.

However, there are a few considerations to keep in mind. Firstly, Everton cannot be penalised twice for the same error. It's important to note that it was the Premier League, composed of its club members, that requested Everton be judged. Therefore, the club members cannot impose additional penalties individually, as this would constitute double counting, a concept not endorsed in the UK legal system.

Secondly, while it's true that this 10-point deduction would have relegated Everton last year and kept Leicester in the Premier League, Everton had no control over the timing of the process and the judgement. The case took as long as it did to ensure due diligence, meaning Everton cannot be held responsible for when the decision was made.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, clubs must perform to maintain their league status, and it's not the aim of the league for clubs to rely on the misfortune of others to stay in the competition. It's a sporting contest, not a legal chess game. While clubs may benefit indirectly from others' misfortunes, this is down to luck rather than a guiding principle.

Additionally, the point deduction, while severe, doesn't mark the end of consequences for Everton. This means Everton's finances this year will be impacted by the repercussions of a 10-point deduction, leading to indirect opportunity costs for the club.

A violation has occurred and a severe penalty has already been imposed. This matter cannot now be re-litigated by other clubs.

Moreover, there is an issue with the methodology used by the Premier League and the independent commission in reaching their decision. If the £105M limit was established in 2013, it should have been adjusted for inflation.

Given the decade that has passed, including the impact of the Covid shock, the same £105M from 2013 would equate to around £150M by 2023. Financial judgements must take such economic changes into account.

Therefore, the foundational basis of their assessment is inherently flawed if the figures have not been adjusted for inflation, as the aggrieved party has been subject to this economic variation.

Brendan McLaughlin
945 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:47:32
Sorry, Jonathan #942

You may believe it but you certainly haven't been vindicated by recent events.

Brendan McLaughlin
946 Posted 19/11/2023 at 22:53:05
Sur Jo #944,

"Firstly, the judgement states that the breach did not give Everton FC any sporting advantage "

It most definitely did not say that as has been pointed out on this thread many, many times.

Brendan McLaughlin
947 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:04:29
Sur Jo #944

"If the £105M limit was established in 2013, it should have been adjusted for inflation. "

The Premier League are focused on ensuring that clubs live within their financial limits so adjusting the £105 million is counterproductive. It's fairly obvious why it has stayed at £105M.

Brendan McLaughlin
948 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:11:17
Three, maybe now four, of my posts in a row.

Think the last time that happened was way back in the "Moyes Out" wars.

Too old for this now.

Barry Rathbone
949 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:11:17
Sur Jo,

If it was £300k we wouldn't be arsed the compo bandied about is £300M and unless a financial settlement is reached beforehand, I can see it happening.

After all, if the shoe was on the other foot supporters here would be baying for blood.

One thing I've learned is to take no notice of fans saying things won't happen because they don't like it — we are deeper in the shit than some realise.

Kevin Molloy
950 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:17:42
There are good policy reasons why a court will chuck out this £300M nonsense. They will always allow the Tevez one, you can see the clear advantage and link it to points gained.

With us, if you allowed them all to pile in, every team in the Premier League could sue us for all games over a 3-year period.

Newcastle missed out on Champions League by two points, we beat them whilst in breach of this clause 3 years ago, are we liable for the money they would have got from a Champions League tilt?

They will nip this in the bud and say the competitive advantage cannot be quantified and so nobody is entitled.

Sur Jo
951 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:27:46
There needs to be a sense of proportionality when seeking compensation. Didn't the Premier League seek proportionality when they penalised us for a financial breach?

So, how can they justify imposing a £300M compensation claim on a club whose annual revenue is barely £100 million? Is it their intention to financially cripple a club for this infraction?

Sur Jo
952 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:33:39
I understand that my perspective might be influenced by my support for Everton, but it's important to advocate for the club's position in this matter.

Frankly, the £105M rule seems rather arbitrary. If the Premier League intends to scrutinise club finances, they should base their decisions on logical and well-reasoned figures.

The current approach appears to be largely perception-driven, with the figure agreed upon by a group of ten individuals, possibly influenced by political factors.

However, now that this rule is impacting clubs significantly, its entire rationale is rightly being challenged. The debate surrounding this issue is fundamentally rooted in differing arguments and perspectives.

Sur Jo
953 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:42:13
In my view, the UK is open to business and actively encourages it, with a clear demand for increased investment.

The additional £19.5M spent by Moshiri was invested in a UK-based league, and ultimately, it's his money. While there can be discussions about the funds being wasted and mismanaged (which we seem to believe), it's crucial to note that this spending did not violate any laws.

It merely exceeded a wholly arbitrary, perception-driven threshold. Who's to determine that the limit shouldn't have been set at £130M instead? Financial experts might well have made a case for a higher figure.

Brent Stephens
954 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:45:55
Sur,

If you want to be in the club (in this case, the Premier League), you follow the rules.

Paul Birmingham
955 Posted 19/11/2023 at 23:52:11
A fair play and a clear Premier League standards benchmark?

Which Premier League consultant is “assigned” to them rascals at Manchester City & Chelsea? It fucking stinks.

Everton will escape and the world will not again be the same, by the end of 2023.

UTFTs!

Paul Birmingham
956 Posted 19/11/2023 at 00:06:29
Barry, good points, but how do you see it happening?

Technically, every club could claim against Man City and Chelsea over the last 20 years, which is what this issue, as countenanced in simple terms, alludes to, but the main points regards Everton's punishment are massive.

Everton is in a tough place, but this is the battle of justice and governance of the Premier League. As it is, it stinks.

But Everton is the force of nature like no other club. The Premier League is crooked and corrupt!

UTFTS!

Paul Birmingham
957 Posted 20/11/2023 at 00:18:35
And as it is, it will be said tomorrow morning on Crosby Beach and across the World, this battle for the future of Everton Football Club, and the World of Football, will see and feel the force of Evertonians like never before.

UTFTs!

Dan Parker
958 Posted 20/11/2023 at 00:26:53
For those in the US, I'm on Vistaprint making myself a corrupt Premier League logo t-shirt. Won't ever forgive or forget this one.
Dan Parker
959 Posted 20/11/2023 at 00:54:07
To add, it seems the Premier League Twitter admin goes to bed UK time. No matter how many posts they'll make to hide the corrupt tweets, we'll be here awake longer.

Petty, yes… every little helps.

Kieran Kinsella
960 Posted 20/11/2023 at 01:04:12
I keep forgetting this and waking up every day thinking it was a nightmare. To that point, I had a lesser nightmare last night I was on Big Brother and instead of voting people out they let zombies in the house every few days. I won by the way.

As to crows, I read today about a crow who learned to talk. Maybe he should get on the VAR roster. Also, the Telegraph say the Premier League are changing payments so most tv money goes to the Big Six.

While they're at it, why not make the rest of us field unpaid amateurs. Maybe charge us an appearance fee for getting on TV alongside the RS.

The less competitive the league is the better it is for Murdoch and his Norwegian minions.

Eric Myles
961 Posted 20/11/2023 at 02:00:43
Crisis at Goodison Deepens — says the Mail.
Dan Parker
962 Posted 20/11/2023 at 02:27:51
Premier League…

We are like Hugh Glass in The Revenant. We will never let you rest for your treachery and betrayal.

Jeff Armstrong
963 Posted 20/11/2023 at 05:58:03
Can we borrow Man City's lawyers for the appeal?

After all, it would be in their interests if we were to blow the whole process apart and show how shambolic the Premier League and their “make it up as they went along” commission are.

Eric Myles
964 Posted 20/11/2023 at 06:00:56
So the next concern is, 'is this a rolling 3-year review?'

I think it is, so how will 2 of those offending years, plus this year, stack up? Will we still be over the £105M limit and subject to another hearing next year?

Ernie Baywood
965 Posted 20/11/2023 at 06:22:02
Eric, almost certainly, in theory.

The Premier League actually stated in their response that we shouldn't be able to claim mitigation for a trend of improvement given that it already didn't continue in 2023! So expect another charge.

You would hope that by the time it comes around we will have at least showed some willingness to act in good faith.

It would seem very harsh to punish us again though for the same financial outcomes just carried forward. Maybe there are some rules around that. I'm sure a commission would at least see sense – though that probably depends on how we've behaved in that additional year.

Bobby Mallon