15/01/2024 242comments  |  Jump to last

Everton have been referred to an independent commission for a second time for breaching the Premier League's Profitability and Sustainability rules (PSR) and run the risk of being deducted more points by the end of the current season.

The club were rocked in November when a first independent commission found the Blues guilty of going over the threshold of permissible losses over a rolling three-year period following the finalisation of their accounts for the 2021-22 season and were docked 10 points by the League.

That has left Everton battling to avoid relegation for a third successive season while the club prepare their appeal against the historic points penalty which is expected to be heard before the end of February.

Meanwhile, the club must now contest a second charge, this time relating to a four-year period from 2019-20 to 2022-23 (the seasons impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic are counted as one), during which their latest accounts, submitted to the Premier League towards the end of last month under new regulations, show them to still be in breach of PSR.

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Nottingham Forest have also been charged by the League for going over the threshold during the past two seasons since their promotion from the Championship.

Everton had already taken significant steps to address a potential breach with a net transfer spend during the 2021-22 financial year of -£50m once the sale of Richarlison was taken into account and -£3m the following year when Anthony Gordon and Moise Kean were offloaded for a combined £68m.

However, due to the overhang from the previous two seasons – 2019-20 and 2020-21 in particular – Everton have still been found to be in breach of spending rules.

In a pointed statement in response to this latest referral to a commission, Everton addressed the issue of a double charge for the same rolling accounting period:

“Everton Football Club acknowledges the Premier League’s decision to refer a breach of Profit & Sustainability rules (PSR) for the assessment period ending with the 2022-23 season to an independent Premier League commission.

“This relates to a period which covers seasons 2019-20, 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23. It therefore includes financial periods (2019-20, 2020-21 and 2021-22) for which the club has already received a 10-point sanction. The club is currently appealing that sanction.

“The Premier League does not have guidelines which prevent a club being sanctioned for alleged breaches in financial periods which have already been subject to punishment, unlike other governing bodies, including the EFL. As a result – and because of the Premier League’s new commitment to deal with such matters “in-season” – the club is in a position where it has had no option but to submit a PSR calculation which remains subject to change, pending the outcome of the appeal.

“The club must now defend another Premier League complaint which includes the very same financial periods for which it has already been sanctioned, before that appeal has even been heard. The Club takes the view that this results from a clear deficiency in the Premier League’s rules.

“Everton can assure its fans that it will continue to defend its position during the ongoing appeal and, should it be required to do so, at any future commission – and that the impact on supporters will be reflected as part of that process.”

According to The Telegraph, Everton believe the forthcoming appeal hearing "will effectively render the new charge groundless" while finance expert Paul 'The Esk' Quinn is adamant that the club are not in breach of the rules, asserting that "an adjustment to Everton's previous accounts (permitted under International Accounting Standards) makes us compliant".

 

Reader Comments (242)

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Rennie Smith
1 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:31:09
PL just taking the piss now. How can they charge on periods that have already been charged, and subject to appeal? And still the likes of Chelsea and City sit there smiling away.
Anthony Hawkins
2 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:31:10
This is ludicrous.

I'd like to see the breakdown of the yearly spend that triggers the PSR breach.

The PL are inept.

Don Wright
3 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:31:47
Time to try a different protest
If who ever organises the place cards and banners can sort it how about balloons with the corruption logo on for the next sky televised match, I sit in the lower Bullens right below the cameras and would be more than willing to raise a balloon to camera height blocking the cameras view of the game and getting a message across and I am sure those around me would do the same hard to ignore.
Christy Ring
4 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:32:20
Is this a joke, ‘double jeopardy ‘ how can you be done twice for the same breach?
Dean Williams
5 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:33:49
I fear we are fucked.
Paul Hewitt
6 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:34:23
All the premier League need to do now is deny 777 from buying us. That should finish us off.
Les Callan
7 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:35:22
Forget it lads. We ain’t getting those points back, and they’ll give us a few more as well.
Danny Baily
8 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:35:47
Why is an independent commission required? The offending accounts have been scrutinised by the previous commission, and are presumably being scrutinised by the appeals panel as we speak.
Barry Hesketh
9 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:37:24
The next league game with Spurs should be watched in the pubs and bars local to Goodison, by Evertonians and leave the stadium to the Londoners alone. A more or less empty stadium will speak far more powerfully than any cards or balloons etc.

Guy on Sky saying the 'rules are the rules!"

Apparently it will all be sorted by the middle of April. Scrub that appeals must be concluded by 24th May.

John Raftery
10 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:37:34
At present what happens on the pitch seems irrelevant compared with what happens in the Tribunal room. Where are the calculations?
Barry Shearer
11 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:37:45
OMG. Seriously.

We will not go down without a fight. We will gather as fans. Let Goodison rock on Wednesday. Great response from the club. "Corrupt".

Rick Johnson
12 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:38:01
So is it fair that the club has to suffer the issues raised by the dealing with 2 charges whilst still having to continue with the actual playing of games? surely this is likely to have an adverse effect on the players mental approach to their work? So notwithstanding the outcomes of the 2 separate cases, the Club will be punished to a greater or lesser degree in other ways. As I said earlier, the Premier League is no longer a fair competition.
Mike Gaynes
13 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:40:17
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Fuck the Premier League.

Derek Cartwright
14 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:42:37
I think the esks source is moshiri !
Barry Hesketh
15 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:42:40
Mike @13
As a sports loving person and one that has close associations with American sports, has there been similar occurrences within those sports? I share your sentiments with regards to the Premier League.
Barry Hesketh
16 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:44:19
The Sky narrative begins, Forest are helping and assisting the Premier League, and Everton are stamping their feet!
Les Callan
17 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:44:54
I see our protests had the desired effect.
Jay Harris
18 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:46:24
This is a travesty brought about by building a new stadium and sanctioning Usmanov. His 30 m alone would have got us within guidelines let alone the interest on loans brought about by spending on the stadium.

If it didn’t sound like fantasy I’m beginning to think some sour reds in authority do not want us in a new state of the art stadium.

Johan Elmgren
19 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:48:21
The Premier League has become a circus. VAR is a shambles. FFP is a complete farce. Corrupt and incompetent, the lot of them... Slowly sucking the joy out of the once beautiful game...
Les Callan
20 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:48:41
Sky reporting that we have admitted it.
John Raftery
21 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:51:03
The Premier League website says the two clubs have confirmed they are in breach.
Andy Crooks
22 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:51:22
We support Everton and we will support them whatever happens. The Premier league is corrupt and I have not watched a match that doesn't involve us for many years.
Professional football means nothing to me and I actually don't a flying fuck about it.
Unfortunately, there has been unpunished incompetence at our club. What was the role of the CEO in this?
Barry Hesketh
23 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:51:24
Jay @ 18
I wouldn't be surprised if HMG hasn't tipped the wink to the Premier League, 'sort out that friend of Putin at Goodison' and we'll let you continue to govern yourself, fail to do so and we'll take over. Forest, will, in my opinion not be deducted points because they will have learned valuable lessons from Everton's original case and will use the Johnson transfer as a mitigating reason for their default on PSR.
Frank Crewe
24 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:54:12
From the Guardian:
Should the appeal find in Everton’s favour and accept the mitigating factors that the club put forward for their losses, such as interest on loans for a new stadium and the loss of commercial deals connected to the oligarch Alisher Usmanov after the UK government imposed sanctions on him, that would lessen the breach not only for the period up to 2022 but up to 2023.
How were Everton supposed to predict Covid or the Ukraine war? The fact is that there is a world of difference between knowing you are deliberately overspending and overspending due to unforseen circumstances. They should be thanking us for continuing to build the new ground and increase the prestige of the PL instead of this ridiculous persecution for such a miserable sum.
Alan Corken
25 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:55:55
I didn't think 'Blue Monday' was real. Now I need a drink!
John Chambers
26 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:56:06
John #21. I guess we were stuffed once the assumptions we included in our 21/22 submissions were deemed not valid. Our 22/23 PSR submission would have already been pretty well decided, our year end was 30th June, before these assumptions were challenged in November
Colin Malone
27 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:56:07
I ask the question. Did Tottenham / Arsenal new mega stadiums come into their accounts?
Neil Lawson
28 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:57:40
This is developing into pure farce. We now have the ludicrous situation that we finish comfortably clear of relegation and then get relegated.
A real concern has to be the impact upon the players. Yes, they are professionals and we can demand and expect 100% commitment, but if it remains tight and tough you can not help but fear that the threat of being relegated whatever, will have an impact. A negative impact.
And what of the supporters and the community and the City of Liverpool ? Answer. They don't give a toss.
Anthony Dove
29 Posted 15/01/2024 at 16:59:22
Obviously the previous charge does not relate to 22/23 as the accounts for that period have only just been produced.
Rennie Smith
30 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:02:22
Les#20 we have admitted both charges, the point is the rules were so obscure/changed halfway through that we didn't believe we were breaking the rules. The argument is EFC are not maliciously hiding cash to gain an advantage, but unfortunately you can't claim ignorance (or outright stupidity) against the law
Christy Ring
31 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:07:33
My question who are on these independent commisions, are they from other Premiership clubs?
John Pickles
32 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:08:08
Surely our profit/loss over the newest added year must be at least £19.5M less than the £112M loss (recorded in 2018-19) that is removed.
Svein-Roger Jensen
33 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:09:16
We are being persecuted, Its a witch hunt from a thoroughly corrupt system.
Christy Ring
34 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:10:14
Sky defending City and Chelsea, surprise surprise.
Jimmy I'Anson
35 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:10:59
Does anyone know how much us and Forest have breached it by?

The last sanction was 6 points for breaking rules plus 1 point for each £5M (rounded up). If Paul the Esk thought we were compliant, we can't have breached it by much. So possible worst case could be another 6 points.

Also, depending how much Forest have breached by, their sanction could be more than 10 points.

Joe McMahon
36 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:11:06
William Kenwright: "I found you a Billionaire."

Other clubs' Chairman now currently asking themselves "What Would Everton do?" as they always seem to get it right.

Kevin Edward
37 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:11:17
It wasn't unexpected, the first charge set a precedent.
So we have to appeal before the decision on the pending appeal.

I fail to see, should we finish out of the Bottom 3, how we can be sure we are not relegated until after the end of the season. It's just a ridiculous farce now, but we should drag it out to the bitter end.

I don't care about Forest, clearly we are getting preferential treatment, and that is just not fair. And it's not a sport anymore, any integrity that remained in the Premier League is now long gone.

Love Everton, hate football.

Bill Fairfield
38 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:11:56
The only people being punished here are the playing staff, fans and local community.

Moshiri has already walked away, and the Yanks won't be far behind him at this rate.

John Chambers
39 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:13:08
It would be really interesting to see the breakdown on an annual basis of the losses.

The PSR is set at losing an average of £35M per year over 3 years. If our losses for 2022-23 are less than £35M, this must support the argument that we are being penalised for the second time for the years previously penalised in the 2021-22 submission.

Barry Rathbone
40 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:13:30
I see the club have put out a statement claiming we're being done twice and the first effort is being challenged — ergo, the Premier League are talking bollocks (in summary).
Jimmy I'Anson
41 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:13:42
The players should go on strike.
Rennie Smith
42 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:13:59
We could end up with the ludicrous situation that our appeal for the first charge which is delivered end of February or early March is successful, but then we still have the second charge which was applied under the same rules that have just been defeated.

I think I'm confusing myself now so god knows how the idiots at the Premier League work it out…

Phil (Kelsall) Roberts
43 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:14:11
I think we should go ahead with being part of Euro 2028 and then, in April 2028, repaint everything with Premier League Corrupt slogans, the seats, the walls, the running track around the ground.

I always prefer revenge to be served cold.

Rob Halligan
44 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:15:25
So correct me if I'm wrong, but we have been charged for exactly the same season in which we were charged last season?

Was it season 2021-22 that the breach was for and, if so, can we expect a very similar charge in 12 months time, simply because it falls within a 3-year rolling period that accounts have to be submitted for?

Also, I suppose the club had no choice to admit, seeing as they already admitted it a few months ago, though I have not yet heard the club “admit It” – only acknowledged it.

Christopher Timmins
45 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:15:50
Thank you, Moshiri and of course the other members of the Board of Directors who were in situ when the alleged offences occurred.

Please God, the Premier League are just as useless as our former Board and can't count properly, thus allowing us to escape without a further points deduction.

Neil Quinn
46 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:16:27
You can't be charged twice for the same crime, even murder!

The Premier League won't be happy till we're relegated.

Alan J Thompson
47 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:17:09
We should have done a Man City and lied about the true state of affairs and then refused to let them see the books.

We might not have got a lesser points penalty but it could have been avoided for numerous years, or until rule changes which will probably have a time limit included, cannot be enforced retrospectively or slates are wiped clean if no penalty has been imposed.

Everton should raise the possibility of an extraordinary general meeting of the Premier League to discuss if the Executive have the right to impose new rules without first putting them before clubs to vote on.

Karl Masters
48 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:18:39
I think we will be okay. Win the appeal and we are totally clear. If the points deduction is reduced, that will knock on to this as well.

I suspect, if we lose points, it won't end up being any more than the 10 already deducted. Thus we would be in a relegation battle, but playing okay and already above the Bottom 3.

What is annoying is that, if we were 6 or 7 places higher at the end of the season, an extra £20M in prize money would probably stop this happening again in a year's time.

Paul Tran
49 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:20:38
Two issues here. One is the existing draconian, disproportionate sanction, how that appeal goes, and whether there'll be another sanction andappeal.

The other issue is how a business can manage to fall foul of these rules not once, but twice. Has there been a breach of fiduciary duty by the Directors here? Could any action be taken regarding that?

We can influence the first issue. We have complete control over the second one. What a bunch of incompetent fools.

Sam Hoare
50 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:20:54
To be punished twice for what is in large part the same period would seem illogical and unfair. But how can any of us have any confidence that an independent commission will see it that way.

What a mess. As much as we'd like to blame the Premier League for this (and there's cause to do so), this is a situation largely of Moshiri's and Kenwright's making.

Dave Abrahams
51 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:21:45
I think Everton are paying a top barrister to argue our case while some of our supporters are throwing their hands in and saying we are guilty and won't win these two cases.

I think it's best to let the barrister get on with our defence – he might surprise some fans.

Jim Lloyd
52 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:23:10
Joe (36),

Lot of good he did us!

Raymond Fox
53 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:24:53
The Premier League as it stands wants binning.

It's not really a competition involving 20 teams; 4 maybe 5 have a chance of finishing top – the rest of us… no chance at all.

I'm sure there's 12 or more clubs and supporters of the same mind How the hell are these clubs ever going to get parity with the chosen few with their inbuilt advantages?

Paul Tran
54 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:25:42
Where's Rex Makin when we need him?
Paul Birmingham
55 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:27:03
Absolute disgrace.

I hope Everton's crusade for justice on this matter brings the Premier League to its knees, and they get charged for distortion, misinformation and mislying.

These are people who are milking the game clean, with no rules, processes, transparency, or standards. The genuine hate I have for these people who are ruining the British game.

Profitability and Sustainability, my arse. How can Man City, Chelsea and the Skunks be getting off so easily as if they are clean?

So are Everton getting done for the same charges twice?
Surely if the Premier League handselected committee have trumped these charges up, they should be held to account too?

This also impacts any potential take over, and could impacti on other interested parties taking their interest in buying Everton any further.

Smacks of in-house favouritism, so Everton, must question, why are Man City, Chelsea and the Skunks not getting done, and more so City than any other club. There can't be any rules as Man City get off free every year, for the last 12 years.

It stinks but now, more than ever, Evertonians must unite, believe in the dream, and fight til this Medieval-style trial is won. Everton will win in the end but surely this is the end of the Premier League as we know it?

UTFTs!


Dan Doran
56 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:28:39
Our net transfer spend for those 4 years is £63M. One of the lowest in the Premier League for those years.

Are they counting our stadium costs against us? Is that even allowed? This is getting ridiculous.

Brian Wilkinson
57 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:31:23
I posted this in November 2022 on Everton fans pages, ToffeeWeb and Everton Fans' Facebook, the warning was clear back then and now 2 years later, we are now paying the price, instead of taking more action back in 2022.

An open post to Francis and the admins, a while back we had everything in place to make our feelings known, enough is enough, back then I think we had just hit 1,000 members, the group has now swelled beyond belief.

For new members, the aim was to descend on Goodison, on a non-matchday, with media arranged, to listen to the supporters views on removing Bill Kenwright as Chairman, and his yes men and woman, and replace them with professional people, who know how to run a football club.

Sacking Frank Lampard will not change anything, multiple managers have been and gone, yet the stench remains at Goodison. They got off lucky that we chose to postpone this, until after the transfer window closed, then it was a case of the season in full swing.

Well there is no better time than now for not just us, but other Everton groups on Facebook, Twitter, various other Everton Internet sites, set up by Evertonians, to try and come together, March down the Goodison Road, and put our message across once and for all to pre arranged media coverage, a statement pre done to read out, and banners.

This cannot go on any longer, I beg you, Francis, to re raise the Enough is Enough campaign, and let all new members know what it is all about and get their views about it.

Cheers in advance, Kenwright Out.

Ian Linn
58 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:31:27
So fucking tired of this shit.
Ian Edwards
59 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:33:29
We fight on. Because we must.

The Spirit of the Blues.

P Ron Wells
60 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:35:43
Perhaps I am totally wrong but this further accusation, which smacks of double jeopardy, has two aims:

1. To scotch the first appeal made about the points deduction.

2. To discourage the Government from setting up a commission to oversee the Premier League too quickly.

Cannot our local MPs band together and raise questions in Parliament, exercise some pressure like Andy Burnham has done? This concerns the city, employment, and people's future, beyond football. This would at least make a few hot under the collar at the level of exposure.

Neil Carter
61 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:35:58
The Premier League will need to grab the points off us quickly — they're scraping the system at the end of the season or at the point they can finally relegate us on negative points.

Bent bastards!!!

Neil Carter
62 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:40:08
Not being able to manage our finances — you would think that would suggest we have a bad accountant influencing decisions around the club…

I wonder what his name is?

Brent Stephens
63 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:40:54
Paul #49:

"Two issues here. One is the existing draconian, disproportionate sanction, how that appeal goes and whether there'll be another sanction and appeal. The other issue is how a business can manage to fall foul of these rules not once, but twice.."

Surely, Paul, it's not that Everton are to blame for falling foul of the rules twice. We fell foul first because of the impact of one year on the overall calculation. That one year is now impacting on the second overall calculation – but not because we repeated the behaviour in the rogue year that's causing the impact.

Jason Hewly
64 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:41:37
So, after watching clubs buy the Premier League Title for decades, we're going to get relegated for a sum that wouldn't even buy you a shite English winger.

Fuck the Premier League.

Brent Stephens
65 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:42:32
Two penalties applied in the same season? Surely not. The cumulative impact would be disastrous.
Neil Carter
66 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:42:33
We need to replace the Premier League anthem with Tubthumping by Chumbawumba before every home match
Mike Gaynes
67 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:43:13
Barry #15, in a word, no. About a dozen North American major pro sports teams have filed for bankruptcy in the past 50 years or so (most of them in hockey), but the leagues have no transfer bans or enforced points deductions or demotion to lower leagues.

The most recent case was about 12 years ago when Major League Baseball stepped in to assume control of the Los Angeles Dodgers, one of the most valuable franchises in sports, because troubled owner Frank McCourt couldn't make payroll.

Historically the troubled clubs have been sold, auctioned or moved to a new city, and that has ended it. The Dodgers were sold for $2 billion. They are worth more than twice that today.

Jerome Shields
68 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:43:47
Following the same pattern as the last time. A leak from the Club saying that everything is okay, thena leak regarding charges from the Premier League. Then an announcement that Everton are being referred to a commission.

So this season, Everton faces a Commission regarding compensation, a, appeal regarding the first Commission's findings, and now another Commission for the most recent 3-year period.

How this stands regarding the takeover by 777 Partners where there would have been clauses regarding the impact of Premier League Sanctions is now definitely up in the air.

Paul the Esk is working off incomplete figures, since he is not party to what Everton has presented to the Premier League or the Commission. Even £100 million was presented by Everton at a meeting with Small Shareholders out of thin air.

Really few of us know what we are dealing with in regard to Everton and even less of us know anything about the Premier League.

I fully expect this circus to be a regular feature with various clubs involved every season. But one has to ask why Man City have not been referred to a commission and are allowed not to follow the Premier League's due monitoring process and get away with it? They appear to know a lot more than Everton.

Brent Stephens
69 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:45:07
Karl #80,

Consider the scenario in which our appeal is heard and the penalty reduced to 5 points. And then the second case being brought applies a new 5-point penalty for last season.

Total 10 points. Convenient.

Neil Carter
70 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:46:05
Mike – the Premier League couldn't step in to save fucking Jammy Dodgers!!!!!
Jim Lloyd
71 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:46:13
As soon as this bunch of charlatans introduced the P&S rules with the aim of stopping a club spending other than what it earns via income of sponsorships and sales, it opened the door to the favoured few, and slammed it in the face of the rest of us.
Phillip Warrington
72 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:47:06
If the players can get us out of this nightmare, we should be carrying them on our shoulders through the streets of Liverpool.

Every other fucker is trying to… if it's not the Premier League itself, the referee and the VAR are never our friends. Then toss in the time it takes for new owners to be rubber-stamped, while in the meantime we are continually borrowing to stay afloat which is helping our profitability and sustainability stance.

Shit, it now means we are going to be at least 11 points clear of the third-to-bottom team, which in real time means we would have to finish in the Top 10. Now that's the form we need to finish in the 4th to bottom position.

At the moment, every time we clear a hurdle, the next one gets a little bit higher with no finishing line in sight.

Barry Hesketh
73 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:49:46
Henry Winter:

The @premierleague claim that "Everton and Nottingham Forest have each confirmed to the Premier League that they are in breach of PSR". Slightly arrogant tone and disputed by the clubs. #EFC claim "clear deficiency" in PL rules. #NFFC "confident of a speedy and fair resolution".
4:41 PM · 15 January 2024

Tone-deaf statement by @premierleague sums up the organisation under Richard Masters. Even if you agree with the importance of PSR, you have to show some understanding of what potential charges mean on a human level, to supporters and staff of the two clubs.
5:07 PM · 15 January 2024

Dave Lynch
74 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:51:30
Just put a statement out to the press:

"We as a club acknowledge the fact that you are using Everton as an example and lever to prove to the government you can mark your own homework.

We as a club are now telling you to shove your findings up your arse, you corrupt shower of self-serving wankers.

We accept relegation (but will be back)... again shove your corrupt decision and findings where the sun don't shine."

Barry Hesketh
75 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:56:51
Crimson Toffee posting on Grand Old Team writes:

To build out further on the arguments presented up-thread about the stupidity of the rolling 3-year period without including provisions for preventing double jeopardy:

Let's say you have a period of years as so:

Year one: break even
Year two: £5 million profit
Year three: something goes horribly wrong for whatever reason - £200 million loss

You get punished at the end of year three because of the 3-year cycle being high above the allowed £105 million losses. Ok, fine.

Year four: despite your likely points deduction, you somehow manage a miracle and post a £20 million profit

Your reward: a second punishment, because you've still lost more than £105 million total in years 2+3+4

Year five: again, despite another points deduction, you somehow manage another miracle and post a £25 million profit

Congratulations! A third punishment, because year 3 is still on the books (3+4+5 this time) and your last two years of profits haven't been substantial enough to cover the one year of massive loss.

So, five year cycle - three draconian punishments for the same single year's offense when you lost nothing the other four years. This scenario is entirely plausible, and is at least akin to the situation we are now in (though not with profits for ourselves but only smaller losses).

I assume this possibility is what Everton mean by the Premier League having no set rules in place, similar to those that the EFL has?

Alan McGuffog
76 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:59:16
If relegation becomes an odds-on certainty following further sanctions, would there be any point in Everton competing in the remaining fixtures?

We could avoid tackling, not bother defending free-kicks, etc.
Except against Liverpool. Wouldn't that be intriguing?

Jeff Spiers
77 Posted 15/01/2024 at 17:59:25
Neil @46,

Why does the Premier League hate us? So much so to want us relegated?

Tim Stone
78 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:00:50
I'm fed up with the words 'Independent Commission'. There is nothing independent about it.

A Premier League selected board, told by the Premier League what to do and say.

Secondly, these people in charge of the Premier League would not last any time in the business world. They're making up the rules on the hoof.

Why have not the rest of the Premier League teams kicked up a fuss because sooner or later they will be hit by a disgraceful unfair, corrupted rule.

The P&S rules are not fair yet they are being used to beat the teams outside the Top Four over the head.

Barry Hesketh
79 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:01:56
Alan @76,

There have been so many occasions in the recent past where those situations have occurred that the Premier League may not notice… well, apart from the competing with the other lot – they'd notice that very much. :)

Bobby Mallon
80 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:03:53
Well, Paul the Esk was correct…

Not!!!

Les Callan
81 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:08:23
Alan @ 76.

That's exactly what we should do. Reduce the competion to farce. Play in some games and not others.

George Cumiskey
82 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:10:42
Tim Stone, the reason the rest aren't kicking up a fuss is that they reckon the Premier League are changing the rules in August.

That's according to Richard Keys on beIN Sports.

Rob Halligan
83 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:11:15
Bobby # 80…

Far too many people are taken in by what Paul the Esk says. Maybe now he will stop posting some of his garbage.

Pat Kelly
84 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:11:32
Does anyone remember when football was about sport?
Anthony Dove
85 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:12:11
Whatever the shortcomings of the rules and their application, the financial maladministration of the club makes it pretty embarrassing and humiliating to be an Everton supporter at the moment.
David Nicholls
86 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:19:10
I reckon we need to send James Tarkowski round to Premier League HQ to have a few words!
Ray Said
87 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:19:55
Paul Tran (54),

'Sexy Rexy' Makin would have smoothed all this away for us. The Premier League would have ended up giving us a payoff and an extra 10 points.

Brian Wilkinson
88 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:20:08
Whoever we have appointed now, and by all accounts a top solicitor, his first question should be: "Why since 2014 has it remained at £105 Million, when no account has been taken for inflation, the value of transfers and wages increasing over a 10-year period???"

"Why after the first year of Everton building a new ground, you then change the goalposts and bring in interest now has to be submitted in the PSR calcualtion, long after the build of the new stadium had commenced, knowing full well this will have an impact on future PSR calculations.

The interest on the stadium loan is what is taking us over the threshold; that cannot be right, changing a ruling in the middle of a stadium build.

Paul Tran
89 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:21:03
Brent #63,

That's a fair point I'd accept if that's the only reason we ended up in breach again. If that's the case, we should fight it tooth and nail.

Given the incompetence of the people purporting to be running the club, I'd like to see that evidence.

Roger Helm
90 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:23:09
I am at least reassured by having a top KC on board.

A Premier League functionary being cross-examined by him should be a blood sport worth watching.

Paul Tran
91 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:23:19
Yes Ray #87, Rex would have got compensation out of them as well!
Barry Hesketh
92 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:24:33
Everton Xtra on Twitter:

🔵 #EFC argue the Premier League had previously informed them interest payments would not count towards losses.

Club feel if they win their first appeal in late February, the independent panel will find in their favour on these new set of charges.

Everton are planning a robust defence and believe there is a “deficiency in the Premier League's rules” pointing out they are defending a new case covering the same financial periods as the existing one.

Neil Lawson
93 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:25:39
Neil (46),

There are circumstances where you can be charged again after previous acquittal but only for the most serious of offences.

The Premier League, patently, are making up their own rules.

James Hughes
94 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:27:53
I think that Mr Masters and his mates have finally made themselves to look clueless.

The artificial PSR rules were brought in in 2014 after other clubs had spent massive amounts far in excess of what we have, well, wasted. The PSR rules have not been adjusted to reflect that the media money has increased by over 40% so PSR should flex to reflect the change.

However, the last thing we need is the Government to get involved. Each VAR decision would need to go before The Commons.

Paul Ferry
95 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:30:01
I'm doing my best now to distinguish between the inept clowns who Moshiri called a great board and who got us into this mess, and the current set-up – Chong and Spellman – who have to get us out of it. The common denominator is the useless, thoughtless, and careless Monaco amateur commercial dwarf who splashed someone's cash. He cannot be allowed anywhere near these proceedings again.

We can go on and on about corruption and being singled-out, but the real demons here are Kenwright and his board and his arrogant and egregious ‘What would Everton do?', a lack of self-awareness that borders on narcissism and has inflicted profound damage on our club.

This is what we have to recover from, and these charges are one aspect of that. Remember that our legitimate protests in word, print, and demonstrations were vilified by knee-jerk media reporting and Kenwright sheep and fawns who even accused us of speeding up Kenwright's death and stopping him from watching us at The Old Lady in his last sickness. They should be ashamed of themselves.

We – or the clowns who were in charge of running ‘we' – are the cause of where we find ourselves today. No-one else. They put us in an impossible position where PSR breaches were as predictable as night follows day.

However, that still means that the Premier League and its so-called independent commission has to stick rigidly to proper process and protocols. This is even more necessary as the Premier League is in a rearguard action to stave off independent regulation (a very likely context for our first and second charges).

We see now why super-silk Rabinowitz was put on the payroll. This was done with the ongoing appeal in mind, I think, but more urgently with this second charge that the club knew was coming once the accounts had been filed last month.

I've met Laurence Rabinowitz a few times as the head of his One Essex Court chambers – Anthony Grabiner – was master of my Cambridge college, Clare, up to 2021. He is incredibly astute with a piercing mind, not something that highly intelligent people always have.

We are in good hands in this respect. His team of underlings will be combing through the nitty gritty of each bit of this case in Essex Court (the starting-place, by the way, for a rebellion against the Queen in 1601).

They actually don't really need a fine toothcomb as, for me, there is a glaring deficiency in this second charge. The Premier League are quite literally making rules up as they go along because nothing was put down in fine print to deal with all aspects of this case. This nub of this deficiency is collapsing two seasons worth of data and this should not happen in an ongoing situation like this.

We are in this position because of the fall-out from COVID. How on earth – even given the years of mismanagement by our top-drawer board leading up to the pandemic – could we be reasonably expected to anticipate COVID?

Also, the consequences of a sudden invasion and subsequent war that removed a source of serious income in a flash, but it was us who cut that string and numerous commercial deals (the board, for once, did the right thing)?

The Premier League should be working with us today, not against us, not least because post-Kenwright we have been taking steps to try to cope with a potential breach and stay in constant touch with North Wharf Road. They have over-reached themselves with this second charge over what I suspect will be a relative pittance.

The permissible loss over 3 years is £105 million. We have been mauled because of season 2020-21 in particular. However, unless I am badly wrong, in terms of sales, we are £3million in the black over 2022-23.

One year's worth of permitted loss is £35 million – I know that it does not quite work out that way – and it will be really interesting to see just how much our supposed “overspend” will end up being. I suspect that it will be chicken feed.

In these circumstances, the Premier League gets to masquerade as a tough unit hell-bent on regulating itself, and we, most likely, will end up with a fine and not a second round of points deduction.

Recruiting Rabinowitz is smart. His name alone makes a difference. If I am right in thinking that a fine is the most likely outcome, he will work hard on that score and, needless to say, on the ongoing appeal. The real own goal by the Premier League here is allowing us to conflate the two.

Questions about other new stadiums are not really relevant. The two North London clubs were well run by people with real commercial and accounting skill.

Nor do I think that moaning about witch-hunts gets us very far. Kenwright and his slimy acolytes put us in this position. The Premier League slapped a charge on us but their process is shoddy and fragile; a new and more competent board is making the right moves to work with, not against the Premier League (they owe us the same respect).

The Premier League, trying to flex its muscles, slapped a second equally poorly thought-through charge on us when continued talking was a far better course to take; and we now have a first-class legal team to point all of this out and many other nuts and bolts that I am not equipped to see.

We will get through this in one piece.

COYB

James Marshall
96 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:33:20
So now we're likely to be subject to a VAR-style decision after the season has finished.Give me strength.

Football at the top level is broken and a large part of me no longer cares about being part of it. We'll never get anywhere near winning the league in this current reality so would it be so bad to be in the lower leagues?

Football supporters of lower league teams love and enjoy their team just the same as those at the top – I've watched a fair amount of non-league football over the years and it's just as, if not more entertaining.

I'm close to being done with it all, and have never felt so alienated from the sport I used to love.

On the plus side, I really enjoy cricket a lot more these days. Maybe I'm just realising I'm in my 50s and don't need the stress anymore.

Neil Copeland
97 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:33:28
I am trying to look at this positively and taking Brent's point into account would mean we remain as is on 17 points but Forest drop to 15 points!

What an absolute farce the Premier League has become.

Allan Board
98 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:33:53
The Premier League have done this to deliberately unsettle the players – they have already climbed one mountain after the 10-point deduction.

This is designed to get them thinking another deduction is on its way later in the Spring-hoping it will affect their desire to keep giving it 100%- because the points are going to be taken off the team anyway.

This is definitely now a vendetta. Dyche needs to now build a further siege mentality – and hope the playing staff buy into it 100%.

"Premier" League? The absolute cesspit that is football is never warranted to use such a word in any description of its product.

It will be very interesting to see if the players keep on task now. It could be a psychological hammer blow. Footy as we knew it is don,e I'm afraid.

Paul Tran
99 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:34:20
Hear, hear, Mr Ferry.
Michael Kenrick
100 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:40:11
Quite a different tone from the last time, where they were adamant they had not breached PSR and would put up a robust defence, only to crumble in the end, and set the precedent.

This time, they are admitting it from the off. That's the lesson they learned. Building on the complete and utter incompetence from the former C-Level numpties who were paid off handsomely.

Barry Hesketh
102 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:44:34
More than a little disappointed with Phil McNulty's piece about Everton on the BBC website.

A familiar scene unfolded at Goodison Park on Sunday when the Premier League anthem rang out before Everton faced Aston Villa.

The famous old stadium echoed to a storm of jeering while pink cards bearing the message that the Premier League was "corrupt" were held aloft by Everton supporters.

This is all the result of Everton's fury and frustration at being docked 10 points after being referred to an independent commission by the Premier League for a breach of profit and sustainability regulations earlier this season.

And the mood of resentment will grow even further with Monday's announcement that Everton have been referred once more by the Premier League for another alleged breach of financial regulations covering seasons 2020-21, 2021-22 and 2022-23.

Nottingham Forest have also been charged with a similar breach.

Everton are currently in the process of appealing against the first sanction and, in an echo of that charge, made it immediately clear they will be defending their position robustly once more - but this is another unwanted distraction and a feeling of deja vu for manager Sean Dyche.

The club's hope is they will get the 10-point punishment, at the very least, reduced - but the latest turn of events is another twist in a season that has almost been trauma on a loop.

No-one can make the case that there has not been mismanagement on a grand scale at Goodison Park under the reign of owner Farhad Moshiri and Everton's previous board, with more than half a billion pounds spent on pushing the club to the edge of the footballing and financial precipice.

Everton survived relegation in last season's final game with home victory over Bournemouth, while it took a 3-2 win against Crystal Palace at Goodison Park in the penultimate game of the previous campaign to ensure safety.

Ironically, the punishment imposed earlier this season united a club that had been broken in previous months, the fans' relationship with the hierarchy fractured to such an extent that Everton's board of directors' felt unable to attend matches at Goodison Park on safety advice from January 2023.

The sense of injustice, warranted or not, and the belief the punishment is excessive and heavy-handed has acted as a unifying force.

Since then, owner Moshiri has put a takeover deal in place – still awaiting approval – with United States investment firm 777 Partners, while former chairman Bill Kenwright died in October aged 78.

The club is fully focused on that appeal, with the expectation there will be a resolution by the end of February. The commission looking at the latest charge cannot meet until the first appeal has been concluded because the result could influence the outcome of the new commission.

One of Everton's arguments is that overspend they are accused of is the result of loan repayment costs incurred as a result of building their new stadium on the banks of the River Mersey at Bramley Moore Dock. In other words, Everton believe they are also being punished for building a new stadium.

Manager Dyche has often stated his job is to ignore "the noise" around off-the-field events and simply get results on the pitch. It is a task made harder by Monday's developments.

Everton are currently one point outside the relegation places, one point ahead of Luton Town having played a game more, so cannot afford any further points sanctions.

Dyche's team, in effect, wiped out that 10-point deduction with four straight Premier League wins but an indifferent run has made their position perilous once more.

Everton will hope they can defend their position successfully at both the initial appeal and any subsequent commission - but there is no doubt the coming months will shape the very future of the club.

No-one can make the case that there has not been mismanagement on a grand scale at Goodison Park under the reign of owner Farhad Moshiri and Everton's previous board, with more than half a billion pounds spent on pushing the club to the edge of the footballing and financial precipice.

Really Phil? How about all of those players we've been forced to sell in recent years?

Dyche's team, in effect, wiped out that 10-point deduction with four straight Premier League wins but an indifferent run has made their position perilous once more.

Sorry, Phil, but those points won after the decision by the Commission to dock us 10 points have nothing to do with the points that we lost and are hoping to get back on appeal.

Neil Carter
103 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:48:03
Anyone think Masters is a fucking red?!!!
Adam Carey
104 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:51:26
If we get sanctioned again, that will effectively relegate us. Clawing 10 points back was a great effort, but 20 is too much for this team to ask.

Also, big shitz (sorry) 6 teams will start hovering around like locusts to bargain buy our top stars as we try to fend off a 3rd season of punishment.

It appears as well that the Premier League are not going to allow 777 Partners to buy us (which may be a blessing long-term, who knows?). That will send us to the brink of Administration.

I say we just go under. The new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock remains unfinished. Many millions lost to the city of Liverpool as the area is no longer regenerated. Everton stop running as a going concern. The "greatest league in the world" has to complete the season with 19 teams, due to corruption of its own making.

Then, the city sues the arse out of the Premier League for a billion-pound regeneration project that it helped screw up.

Rant over, but I'm done with the Premier League. I only watch Everton anyway. I hope the European Super League comes in and shafts the Premier League. Karma!

Danny O’Neill
105 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:52:02
We will see them at Goodison. We see them at Fulham.

We will fight them on the pitches.

I'm off to watch Howard's Way and The Darkest Hour.

Colin Malone
106 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:52:13
Tottenham, Arsenal, Man City and West Ham don't mention costs of a new stadium in their audits.

Why all of a sudden, Everton have to put it in their audit?

Where's the money we lost on Sigurdsson?

And by the time Man City and others get questioned, they are changing the rules in August.

Chris Leyland
107 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:54:53
Neil,

Masters is actually a Villa fan. He's probably fuming about the disallowed goal yesterday

Jay Harris
108 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:57:02
Let's put this in perspective:-

You can build a world class stadium and have one of the lowest spends in player recruitment and face 2 charges of falling foul of Premier League rules in the same season.

Or you can spend a billion pounds on players in one season or get a free stadium and buy some of the most expensive players in the world — and in neither case be found to be in breach of any rules.

Corruption, greed, media influence and bias prevail in what is supposed to be an unbiased sport.

Tony Graham
109 Posted 15/01/2024 at 18:58:18
Who the hell has been running the club, auditing the books?

We should not be in this secondary situation... it all beggars belief to me.

Barry Hesketh
110 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:00:23
The Football Supporters' Association has called for an independent regulator after Everton and Nottingham Forest were charged with breaching PSR.

The FSA note that Richard Masters, the Premier League's chief executive, will provide evidence in Parliament tomorrow (Tuesday, January 16). The Independent via PA revealed that Masters and EFL (English Football League) chair, Rick Parry, are due to appear before the Culture, Media and Sport committee over discussions – including a so-called 'New Deal for Football'.

It has been said that the talks cover a new and enhanced funding package for the EFL and its clubs but also financial controls, calendar changes and work permits.

On X, the FSA tweeted: "Coincidentally PL CEO Richard Masters is appearing before Parliament tomorrow and he'll no doubt point to this as evidence that an independent regulator isn't needed and the PL can manage this stuff in-house.

"Too late! Independent regulator now." Source: Liverpool Echo

Bobby Mallon
111 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:01:58
Anthony @85,

Being debagged in front of 100 people is embarrassing; being an Everton fan is not.

Ian Wilkins
112 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:03:49
Unfortunately admitting guilt at the outset puts us completely at the mercy of the 1st offence Appeal outcome.

If the Appeal fails, then we are guilty twice for different years, both dependent on a 3-year rolling profile that overlaps. Unfair as that appears, that is the Premier League rule book.

Their argument is that, if you are guilty in a given year, then you should take steps to put it right in the following year. They say they warned us of this when discussing player purchases but we behaved recklessly.

Our management has acted completely irresponsibly, opening the door for the Premier League to trample all over us.

Our future depends on a successful Appeal outcome. If it fails, then we are completely exposed to how many points would be deducted by the 2nd Commission hearing.

I would love to understand how Paul the Esk maintains we are compliant when the club itself states that the calculation is only wrong pending a successful Appeal.

Very worrying times ahead…

Jimmy I'Anson
113 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:06:14
For everyone saying that the £105M should be increased due to inflation.

Don't worry, it will be — once one of the Scum 6 fall foul of the rules. Absolutely guaranteed.

John Pendleton
115 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:07:59
Conspiracy fans.

We knew the rules and spent anyway. We knew about the rolling window so we're not being done twice by surprise. We employed people to know about and operate within the rules. We failed to do so.

Can the Premier League be simultaneously incompetent, inconsistent and corrupt? – you bet it can.

But our leaders knew how risky their behaviour was, especially under the governance of the shitshow that is the Premier League.

I hope our appeals are effective, naturally, but we put ourselves in this particular sling.

Andy McGuffog
116 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:11:22
If we were to be deducted a further 10 points, it would certainly make relegation more or less inevitable. Why not bring a touch of anarchy to proceedings and sabotage the rest of the season?

We could make every game the meaningless farce it really was by scoring multiple own-goals; playing 4 goalkeepers up front; refusing to tackle, even mooning the VAR cameras!

The season would be remembered as a catastrophe for the Premier League.

Colin Glassar
117 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:16:53
This is like having a tooth pulled slowly without anaesthetic.

Just get it over with and demote us to the fucking Northern Conference!!!!!!

Paul Birmingham
119 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:19:01
Everton FC and Evertonians v the rest.

Fuck the fickle twisted sanctimonious media, we don't need them.

I hope Everton's legal challenge opens the doors to the Premier League's corrupt rules, prejudice, and cowardice and they get expelled from English football.

More crooked than crooked, how is there parity and fairness to "compliance" when Man City more than any other club have got away with no charges being proven for over a decade?

Surely the Premier League must be brought to task, and charged for vibration and perversion of justice?

UTFTs! FTEPL!

Joe McMahon
120 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:22:02
If we can carry on somehow, I'd take Championship football as I reckon we would still get crowds like The Toon did.

The Premier League is money only, we always finish lower half and have won sweet fuck-all for 30 years. Kenwright killed the club years ago.

Mark Ryan
121 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:23:15
I'm with Alan. Alan for Chairman. Tell Dyche to gift every game to the opposition and make the Premier League a bigger farce than it already is.

We are being punished for the incompetence of one man. He's the bell-end who found us the wrong billionaire.

Let's get relegated but let's shag the Premier League whilst doing it. Let's face it, the 10-points appeal is now dead in the water and we've heard this rumour a month before Xmas. Chong must have been expecting this and we've had no dialogue from the club, yet again.

Our season is being ruined by our previous incumbent and he's passed. What to do? it would seem we cannot play fairly so let's not bother. Sabotage!

Paul Ferry
122 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:23:59
Barry (Hesketh), there is not a thing wrong with or in McNulty's column. Not one. I don't see the need for your reaction.

And what is with all these long and extensive quotes from elsewhere that you keep posting?

Brent Stephens
123 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:30:55
I agree, Paul #122.

That was pretty much a factual report. And paralleling so many of the posts and points actually being made on this forum.

Colin Glassar
124 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:32:30
Mark 121, a seance and then an exorcism?
Bobby Mallon
125 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:36:28
I fucking hate the Premier League. The only reason clubs want to be in it is money.

Those fucking Sly 6 basically win it all and finish Top 4.

Brian Wilkinson
126 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:37:42
The Premier League are trying to break the Everton fan base, destroy and crush our fight.

As once said, they have picked on the wrong fan base.

We need to all stick together, after the dust and feeling of loss has eased, fight back more, don't let these corrupt bastards crush us.

We have a cup game on Wednesday, let's get all four corners of the ground singing "Oh Everton, we love you!"

Let them players know we are giving our all, but whatever you do, do not give up.

Paul Ferry
127 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:44:21
Brian (Wilkinson), I really do appreciate your sentiments. I do.

But it is simply not the case that "The Premier League are trying to break the Everton fan base, destroy and crush our fight".

The reasons why I do not buy any of this are all in my post at 95 which, however, is rather longish!

There you go, our ladies have just been drawn against the Forest ladies in the next round of the Women's FA Cup. Can we call that the Premier League charges and sanctions derby?

Brent Stephens
128 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:45:21
And as Steve Rotherham (quoted on another thread) points out, the Premier League has still not published a framework for sanctions, as far as I know.

So we don't know how many points penalty there would be for any team who breached the "£105M over 3 years" threshold by overspending, for example, by just £5M (compared to Everton's £19.5M breach); or, say, £40M etc etc.

Are the Premier League (Commission?) to develop a sanctions tariff piecemeal, as they go? Adding another sanction level as each case is heard and a gulity verdict decided?

Imagine the government wanting to deter a particular crime and saying "We'll legislate for the penalty once somebody is found guilty, but we'll only legislate the specific penalty for that specific incident. We'll then wait for the next successful prosecution before we legislate the penalty level for that specific incident."

Barry Hesketh
129 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:47:17
John @115,

Yup, we knew the rules but broke them, the club agreed, but thought that it had enough mitigating factors to be put before the commission in order to escape punishment; but the commission didn't agree and docked us the 10 points.

As for the rolling 3-year stuff, it's ridiculous that the Premier League doesn't have any rules to ensure that one bad year won't scupper a club for three straight rolling periods.

Example:
Year 1 - Good, under the limit
Year 2 - Good, under the limit
Year 3 - Bad, over the limit
First rolling period Year: 1 to Year 3 inclusive - equals breach, equals punishment

Year 2 - Good, under the Limit
Year 3 - Bad, over the limit
Year 4 - Good, under the limit
Second rolling period: Year 2 to Year 4 inclusive - equals breach, equals punishment

Year 3 - Bad, over the limit
Year 4 - Good, under the limit
Year 5 - Good, under the limit
Third rolling period: Year 3 to Year 5 inclusive - equals breach, equals punishment

I realise that this may be too simplistic and may be seen as outlandish in all of the possible scenarios, but I would argue that it is possible to have one poor year, and one that a club may find impossible to redress in future years.

I don't agree with those that say that the £105m ceiling should have been raised in recent years due to inflation etc, because that would seem to negate the idea that clubs should be as free from loss-making as is possible.

Eventually, the Premier League would want all clubs to at the very least break-even and ideally be profit-making.

It could be argued that having a set figure which clubs could lose over a three-year period has led to the situation that Everton and Forest have fallen into.

I think the issue that I have with the whole thing is that punishing clubs with a deduction of points for making losses, would seem to undermine the integrity of the game itself.

If the Premier League had made it crystal clear that financial breaches would lead to heavy points deduction from the outset, it might have appeared to be fairer and a little more palatable.

I've decided with only my spidey-sense to guide me, that we'll get 4 points back in February and lose another 6 points in April or May, thereby having a total of 12 points taken off us for this season.

Given that scenario, we would have 15 actual points on the board and would need another 20 or so from our remaining 17 Premier League matches, a tough ask but still possible to remain in the league for another season. Anything more draconian than a total 12-point deduction would probably guarantee we start our last season at Goodison in the Championship.

Duncan McDine
130 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:52:00
The 'holier than thou' bent coppers are hell bent on taking down our Ruski Mafia. The whole fucking thing stinks.
Pete Neilson
131 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:54:02
The Premier League had no set rules in place for sanctions, they have no set rules in place to avoid double jeopardy, they don't stick to their published timescales. They don't appear to have a clue.

Richard Masters is yet another useless bureaucrat promoted way beyond his capability. An all too common occurrence that we have nowadays. When the spotlight stops on these people, they're found out to have been fucking useless.

Barry Hesketh
132 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:54:41
Paul Ferry @ whatever number it was - if the Eds don't mind my posting various stuff on this site, why should you give a flying one!

If the Eds don't like it, they'll warn me about it, or will you have to complain to them in the first instance?

Steve Dowdeswell
133 Posted 15/01/2024 at 19:57:06
Should just do a Man City and not provide anything to the investigation and keep it going for 10 years.
Mark Ryan
134 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:06:03
Watching Sky Sports, I hear Solhekol saying it will be 2 separate independent panels reviewing Forest and Everton.

So we get Fortnum & Mason investigating us and Forest get Lidl.

Jason Hewly
135 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:06:06
Apply to the French FA (or equivalent) and play in another country's league, à la Cardiff or Swansea. The away games would be a challenge, but we would undermine the Premier League by proving a concept.

How long before Man Utd, Real Madrid, Juventus et al all find themselves in the "Belgium Super League".

Julian Exshaw
136 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:09:51
What really sticks in my throat about all this is the fact that certain clubs a couple of years ago tried to break away from the Premier League without any significant retribution.

Surely this would have created far more damage to the existence of the sacred Premier League than any financial regulations breached by us or Nottingham Forest?

While I can't attest to the notion that the Premier League somehow has it 'in for us' in any way, eyebrows have to be raised concerning why certain clubs are considered liable for punishment and others not.

Paul Ferry
137 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:13:38
Barry (Hesketh), so you agree with me then about McNulty as Brent does?

Why am I bothered? Because nearly all of the points in what you copy from outside are already on here, and most of the sources are not really that interesting or matter or make a real difference.

Completely agree, MK and LL are the ones that matter, not me. It was just an opinion that I'm allowed to have and it most certainly was not a dig at you or anything worthy of complaint.

Jack Convery
138 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:20:19
Rory Smith on Monday Night Club on 5Live:

Everton fans need to be angry with the club, not the Premier League. Everton should never have got into bed with a Russian Oligarch!

What the Fuck? Has he,never heard of a certain Mr Abramovich, the previous owner of Chelsea?

We all know we have been run badly. We've been shouting, nay screaming it for years, but nobody listened. We were categorised as a violent mob by our previous board and hung out to dry. No mention of Man City or Chelsea at all. No bias there then.

We do know we are treated on a different level from the Sly 6 and one VAR call in our favour for the country to see on Sunday doesn't change that! And he was offside!!

The fact they have charged us again makes me think they believe any arguments we have against the existing sanction are not worth listening to and will be dismissed. We can only hope that they are not.

David West
139 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:24:28
Another day, another kick in the teeth for Evertoians!! Bored of it all.

We can bemoan the rules, but we must have been daft to sign up to them just a few years ago, knowing how precarious our situation was.

How can any business, not just Everton, every other club too, sign up to a set of rules, without knowing the rules, the implications of breaking the rules, and the punishment for breaking the rules???

There are no set punishments, no set incremental sanctions, no set points per infringement of the rules.

If we are over the limit in the year we've been charged, then the next year we will be over as we are working on a 3-year basis. We will probably be over again next year as we are using the figures we thought were correct for budgeting this year!!

The rules can't be applied this way, if you are sanctioned for one break of the rules, that same infringement can't be used for the 3 rolling years, 3 points deducted for the same infringement, it's an absolute joke!!

Brent Stephens
140 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:27:07
Jack #138,

"The fact they have charged us again makes me think they believe any arguments we have against the existing sanction are not worth listening to and will be dismissed. We can only hope that they are not."

Alternatively, the Premier League have created a sanctions monster that they didn't realise would come back to bite them with the unforeseen possibilities that Barry sets out in his scenario @129.

Paul Ferry
141 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:28:19
I heard that too, Jack (137).

Rory Smith has always been critical of Abramovich, mate, and I think some of the meaning in what he said was that we ought to have learnt a lesson from the Chelsea experience.

Smith nearly always makes sense to me, except for that really silly comment about how many points a manager gets you etc!

Your last paragraph makes a lot of sense to me, but there is another way of reading things, and that is that the Premier League want to look to be acting tough as they fight against independent regulation and so pick on what they think to be an easy target, where the trade-off for us will be a fine, not a points deduction.

David West
142 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:36:37
Am I right in thinking it will be the same £19.5M that we are over??

If the club thought it was right and the league said we were over by £19.5M, if we are over by more, then incompetence doesn't even cover what these clowns have been doing with our finances.

Anyone know if it is the same £19.5M we are over?? It would make sense?

Eugene Ruane
143 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:38:58
This feller says it for me...

Sam Avery on Instagram

Jack Convery
144 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:40:31
Brent 140 - fully agree with Barry 129. He's spot on.

On another point, Rory Smith said PSR does not protect what he called the cartel. He said it – cartel. Of course it protects them. They appear to me, and I'm sure to a lot of others fans, that they have become a de facto cartel. How can any team compete with them given their wealth?

People will say "Look at Leicester" – I will say "Where are they now?" What about Brighton and Aston Villa? Well Brighton had their prized assets prised away last summer and Villa will go the same way. Even Newcastle are looking like they will need to sell one of their stars to meet PSR. One of their stars will presumably go to a Sly 6 team thus making them stronger.

It's a vicious circle and it's the system that has protected Real Madrid and Barca for decades. If, by some miracle, Girona won La Liga, they will lose their best players as they cannot pay the £Millions in earnings that Champions League regulars do.

To coin a phrase, the game has gone… Long gone.

Andrew Cronin
145 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:43:11
So, the corruption that manifests itself under the guise of FFP and PSR appears to be nothing but a shambolic bunch of power-mad custodians of the Premier League hell-bent on the destruction of the people's game that is fully funded by football fans.

The Everton vision was a long-term plan not for the now but for the next generation of Evertonians. In the short term, the wheels have come loose but they won't come off because we have the most passionate and committed fans in the land.

Our owner and board of directors, sleepwalking but in good faith, have made some disastrous decisions, poor management appointments, not to mention buying Sunday league players on massive contracts, then off-loading them for nothing.

The club are committed to finishing off the biggest and finest project ever undertaken on Merseyside with the build cost now nearer £800M than the initial £500M.

To the best of my knowledge, we have had nothing in the way of government funding – unlike some other clubs playing in the Premier League.

Yes, to fund our vision, we were being part-bankrolled by a person now under sanctions by the UK government; this was a massive blow, but Everton took it on the chin and moved on with dignity. Everton didn't start the war in Ukraine, but we have definitely become a victim.

The conservative government's horrendous economic shit show has caused a massive hike in commercial interest rates that also hit us hard but, once again, Everton took it on the chin. While at the same time expanding their commitments in the community.

While our main benefactor has been sanctioned, the British government continue trading and banking links with Russia, and in fact, our government even supply tools and equipment that allows Russia to equip their military. Whilst we are being punished and hung out to dry because of the financial costs required to complete the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

The Premier League can kick us as hard as they like but we will always get back up again; we also have long memories.
While Everton Football Club need to be diplomatic to fight and appeal the scandalous charges made by a group of faceless unlawful people at the Premier League who resist self-regulation, who changed the rules and moved the goal posts without regulated permission.

Would these charges still apply if the so-called Big 6 had fucked off? Will the Man City case ever be heard? No chance, because the rules will be changed.

Man City sacked an innocent man the day after he was charged; we had a similar problem and continued to pay the guy's contract up in full – we did the right thing and it cost us.

Chelsea spending £435M in the summer by bending the rules. How can Manchester United be over £1 billion in debt?

The Premier League, just like the Post Office, is a 100% corrupt organisation. It is hell-bent on hitting our club, our fans and our community. It's no longer a blame game – we must move on and fight for the future of every little Evertonian.

Jack Convery
146 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:44:08
Paul @141.

I do hope you are right and we end up with a fine and / or a transfer ban.

Duncan McDine
147 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:44:32
"Everton fans need to be angry with the club"

Has this twat been cryogenically frozen like Austin Powers for years and only just been thawed out?

We've been angry with the club, and shown it, for a long time. Someone put him in a headlock, for fuck's sake!

Anthony Dove
148 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:46:39
Bobby @111,

It wouldn't take anywhere near that number to embarrass me. If you're happy with our image at the moment, fine… but I hate it.

To borrow from Fawlty Towers: "You invaded Poland!"

Andrew Bentley
149 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:47:20
In fairness to Rory, Jack @138, what he's saying is that it was clear as hell who owned Chelsea and therefore, once sanctions hit on the Russians, the UK Government forced the sale of the club and held back the money going to Roman Abramovich.

For Everton, Usmanov has hidden behind his puppet Moshiri and therefore it looks like we are owned by an Iranian accountant and not Uzmanov – but we all know whose money it is. That's part of the shite that's got us into this mess is the whole cloak-and-dagger nature of our club ownership.

If Uzmanov was documented as our owner and not Moshiri, then surely the UK Government would have forced the same on us and we'd be here with different owners.

Jerome Shields
150 Posted 15/01/2024 at 20:55:41
I think this will end up as the original sanction reduced from 10 to 6 points on appeal, with a further sanction of 6 points, by the new commission. Enough for Everton to avoid relegation.

The compensation will be manageable. The big problem is Everton's financial situation and pending takeover.

Here's hoping.

Ed Prytherch
151 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:05:10
Colin 106,

Spurs' net outlay on player transfers during the 4 years of stadium construction was a shade over £40M. Levy would not sanction big money incoming transfers and big wages during the construction.

Sadly, our owners paid no attention to the successful model.

Ernie Baywood
152 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:08:39
This was expected. The Commission, in their report, referred to the next season to be reviewed actually being worse.

We've been allowed COVID losses. We've been allowed Stadium spend.

We haven't been allowed made-up COVID losses such as the bringing forward of our naming rights. We haven't been allowed to exclude interest on loans which were documented as not being for the stadium, though it's possible that gets revisited if we're actually now accounting for them in that way.

We can wail all we want about the double jeopardy that a rolling period produces, but it's not new. It's always been a rolling 3-year period. It was our job to operate within those rules.

We have to hope that the league and commission see that double jeopardy and apply it to the punishment. Logically, you would think they will.

The original punishment considered the 'sporting advantage' over the full period – it's illogical to think they do the same now; it should just be the extra year.

I don't know how other clubs are managing this, but I would have thought it was the leaders at our club's job to find out.

Jeff Armstrong
153 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:11:02
Jerome #150,

Plucking numbers out of the air and those numbers coming down to what you think, doesn't make it happen in reality.

I'm sick of people saying “I think this or that will happen” – don't remember anyone thinking we would get a 10-point deduction when all the speculation was going on before November…

Nobody “knows” what the fuck is going on!

Eugene #143 that guy nails it.

John Pendleton
154 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:14:30
Barry (129),

Thank you, a fair and well-reasoned response. I agree with you and all who've found fault with the rules, the process, the punishment.

If I had to apportion blame, I'd say EFC 60% vs EPL 40%.

My post addressed the conspirators who are more 0% vs 100%.

Robert Brown
155 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:29:47
This meritocracy needs to stop. Rupert Murdock is still pulling the strings. His money is the corruption. The Premier League feeds from his pockets.

He hates Merseyside… always has. Through his support of Thatcher. To him we are scum. His minions, who are in his pocket, will not stop until we are ruined.

Soren Moyer
156 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:33:15
It means they can still punish us for 3rd time next season for the same breach (if the rules don't change by then), right!!!?

And Nottm Forest will appeal on the basis that they were in the Championship in the 2020-21 season.

Does it mean the Premier League did not know that!!!?

What a load of bollocks!

Sean Mitchell
157 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:33:20
I honestly think we'd all be happier if we dropped down a league and escaped the clutches of the Premier 6 League.

It's not even competitive anymore because they don't want the 6 cretins' clubs to be broken up (even though Chelsea are crap, but they're allowed to keep spending so they can come good again).

Even Newcastle aren't allowed a pass.

Fuck off, Premier League.
Fuck off, Sky. Boring and biassed.

Gary Hughes
158 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:34:14
Martin Samuel reporting that the Premier League will be changing the same rules that they have used to charge Everton and Forest in August.
Dale Self
159 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:35:19
Good stuff, Paul Ferry (the long post).

I do think we need a bit more in bold and italics to really make sense of this though.

Christy Ring
160 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:39:11
How can the interest from the costs of the new stadium not be allowed, when Man City's and West Ham's stadiums are funded by taxpayers' money, which reduces the outlay of both clubs?
Paul Ferry
161 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:42:20
Dale (159), you should feel really sorry for the copy-editor and production folks working with me on my next book!

John Connor
162 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:48:59
A potential consequence of this announcement could be that the better players will see a potential further point deduction as us being relegated and will want out before the January transfer window closes, further depleting the squad and demoralising those who stay.

Separately who exactly are the independent panel, how has their independence been proven, and when will any decision be made? If further down the line, will we have enough time to make up for any deduction? Looks bleak at the moment if the Premier League want to make an example of us.

Andy Crooks
163 Posted 15/01/2024 at 21:57:41
I have been reading some of Robert Frost's later poetry to see if there was something appropriate to quote... but there wasn't.
Sean Patton
164 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:04:59
Rory Smith is a know-nothing Kopite, by the way.
Sean Kelly
165 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:08:08
Fire sale coming.

We will be the new Wimbledon! MK Dons. If we are lucky.

Teflon Bill escapes again.

Derek Knox
166 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:13:12
Andy @ 163,

You'll probably get more joy from Jack Frost, the mess we appear to be in!

Paul Ferry
167 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:13:23
Sean (164),

Rory Smith actually calls himself a "lapsed" Liverpool fan, by the way, and has not been to one of their matches in years, unless he is reporting on it, which he rarely does, as that is not his role on the New York Times.

He also knows a fair bit about footy.

It's like buses, two Sean's in a row!

Hope you're doing well, Sean (K).

Brian Wilkinson
168 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:19:06
You can almost see Masters rubbing his hands and thinking "We will give them a few days to fester, then we will play our final trump card and announce we will not allow 777 Partners to take over."

It's a bit like one of those David Attenborough programmes, where the killer whales play with a seal, flicking it in the air a few times, before going for the kill.

One sadistic piece of work, Masters.

Tim Stone
169 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:20:02
Please explain to me how how the Glazers at Manchester United can put hundreds of millions of pounds of debt onto the club?

How teams such as Chelsea, Arsenal, Aston Villa can spend hundreds of millions on transfers and yet financial fair play focuses only on certain types of negative debt.

I'm not an economist but, even with my limited maths education, I can see there is something fundamentally wrong with FFP.

Also, why are the demonstrations at the grounds? They should be at the major players in the Premier League... until they resign and we can get fair uncorrupted officials.

These people are making a mockery of what was once the world's best League. Now it's a laughing stock.

Alan Corken
170 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:26:46
Excellent article by Jason Burt in The Times.

He focuses on the fact that the current PSR rules have a good intent but are just not fit for purpose.

He notes that if the spending limits had risen with football inflation, these would now be £218M over 3 years rather than £105M.

The non-increase of the PSR limits has hit clubs with new owners since 2013 hardest, such as Newcastle, Everton and Villa. This has the effect of maintaining the status quo, preventing ambitious clubs breaking into the elite circle...

Given that the rules are, as mentioned in other posts, likely to be changed in August, it might be best for us to focus on making a case for the abandonment of all and any charges arising from the obviously shabby, ramshackle system.

Sean Kelly
171 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:27:47
Hi Paul , doing okay, mate.

I think we all knew this day was coming. Imagine how relieved we all will be if we survive this and stay in the Premier League… only to be taken over by more incompetents like 777 Partners!

Tom Bowers
172 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:31:36
Is this a joke or what?

Have Everton's hierarchy really been purposefully ignoring the league's guidelines?

Who are the cub's legal advisors and why have they not been fired for this mismanagement of the club's financial strategies?

Are there any more skeletons in the cupboard that could make the season any worse?

Dale Self
173 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:37:01
Alan Corken @170, nicely presented.

That lack of adjustment for inflation could be key to establishing an implicit bias in how the Premier League is attempting (and failing) to properly regulate club finances.

Brian Wilkinson
174 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:38:39
Maybe they will find the Arteta money, Tom, and hit us with a tax dodge, mate.
Steve Cotton
175 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:46:18
This £35M a season doesn't equate to Forest being allowed losses of £61M for one season in the Premier League.

Also why are they being charged for one season when everyone else is for three seasons??

Etc...

Phil Greenough
176 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:47:57
If the Premier League do change the rules in August, this would be a tacit admission that the rules they are charging us and Forest with are not fit for purpose.
Dave Cashen
177 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:49:03
Paul Ferry @95,

I can't disagree with any of that.

Paul Smith
178 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:53:55
Bullied… and powerless to stop it – a horrible feeling of anger and resentment.

I hate the Premier League and how it protects its star teams by fucking everyone else over. As long as the 6 are in it, they don't care who else comes up or down – it's irrelevant.

Cowards!

Jerome Shields
179 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:57:04
Jeff #153, I agree.

Just trying to put forward how this worked out. Could be completely wrong, but at least it provides something to think about and trying to make sense of what is going on.

There will be a lot of heightened protest. The Premier League will come under more scrutiny. They will be challenged officially.

The calls for independent regulation will grow. It will become a political issue. But the Premier League will have to be seen to do something and opposition to them will take years.

It is interesting that the Premier League and the Football League are attending a Parliamentary Committee tomorrow – no doubt pushing self-regulation and access to Government monies that are potentially available.

I still think that there is a connection between the Premier League and the Football League regarding sanctions.

Jerome Shields
180 Posted 15/01/2024 at 22:59:56
Tom @172,

According to Andy Burnham, the Premier League's rules changed after the original Commission was announced.

Dave Lynch
181 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:05:22
Paul @178.

"Bullied and powerless to stop it".

See Kenwright and his hand-picked board.

Dave Lynch
182 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:12:28
I like the final line: "The impact on supporters will be taken into consideration in this process." Or words near enough.

What are they alluding to, the reduction of prices on matchday and season tickets if we are relegated?

Are they expecting the worst?

Lloyd Brodrick
183 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:14:55
I'm just speechless at the unwillingness of the commission to listen to the mitigation.

Player X on its own would have us within the limit, same with the lost Russian sponsor.

I'm wondering why Newcastle are not listed as they said they needed to sell to meet the rules, yet they have submitted their accounts and have not sold?

John Raftery
184 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:18:18
Steve (175),

Regarding Forest, the position is that, for each of the first two seasons of the 3-year period when they were in the Championship, they were permitted losses of £13M per season. For last season in the Premier League, they were allowed £35M, a total therefore of £61M for the 3 years.

Jim Wilson
185 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:19:32
Spot on, Lloyd @183,

Certain points jump out at you showing that the Premier League and the Commission are being totally unfair or down right vindictive and that is one of them.

Billy Shears
186 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:29:36
If this joke ruling is passed and more points are deducted from us, then we as a club need to act directly...

If the title chasers are Liverpool and Man City then simply refuse to play them two games. The derby is a home game so leave that one right until the eleventh hour for maximum global impact, and then announce that we won't be playing the game at the "Emptyhad" the morning of the Man City away match.

We need to make the game a mockery (which it now is anyroad!) and that would be fucking perfection. Make the entire Premier League (for this season) completely null and void!!

If we go down... then we go swinging fucking punches at the footballing powers that be... I am positive most clubs would respect us for it too.

Don Alexander
187 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:30:00
Andy (#163), wasn't this one of Robert Frost's:

Some Toffee fans, thick as planks,
Were led for decades by boardroom wanks,
But now wake up to abject bosses
Who'll kill our club for “accountant” losses
Yet say to City, Skunks and Chelsea, “You're welcome here, accept our thanks!”

Rob Dolby
188 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:35:11
The whole thing is a mess for football in general.

How can the self-styled best league in the world be so incompetent?

If clubs fail PSR, by the time the process meets deadlines, the season has finished and nobody knows who is relegated.

P&S Rules changed mid-season, then again pre-season.

The whole thing is a farce.

Bob Parrington
189 Posted 15/01/2024 at 23:41:56
Andy @116, Ha! Ha! Ha! Great humour for a serious situation.

Some options might be to play an Under-18 side or even our women's team. We might even get some points with either. 🤓

Frankly, to me, it looks like we are seeing the demise of the Premier League as we know it. Thank Goodness – it needs a facelift with a completely different Board of Directors!

Dave Lynch
190 Posted 15/01/2024 at 00:07:04
There is no way on this planet we can refuse to play games... that would be a breach of contract or the like.

Plus we can't put out junior teams, we have a senior squad that will want to play football, for fuck's sake.

All we can do is hope and pray this shit show of a governing body is shown up for what it is.

Dupont Koo
191 Posted 16/01/2024 at 00:49:28
I can only reiterate George Orwell's everlasting quote in "Animal Farm":

All animals are equal but some are more equal than others.

Lloyd Brodrick
192 Posted 16/01/2024 at 00:58:44
There must be something else we are missing. Sigurdsson, Russian sanctions aside, it sounds to me that we would not have breached if Moshiri had applied the loans with the interest to the stadium and used his own money to fund the club.

There is no way on earth that our accountants could be so incompetent. So knowing loans plus interest would be included in our spending, why would Moshiri do that? What would the benefit be?

I'm beginning to question who may end up playing in the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock.

Phillip Warrington
193 Posted 16/01/2024 at 01:36:48
We are getting every law the Premier League can think of thrown at us, they are delaying the takeover so we have to borrow money all the time until the new owners come in.

Chelsea had Russian owners and, let's be honest, so did we basically, and yet they get a 10-point deduction and got a fresh start and they spent. It looks like, until the new stadium is fully built and at least 60% paid for, we will be dodging this shit every year.

Moshiri had a dream to turn Everton into contenders playing in a new stadium. Then Mr Moshiri said "Fuck you all, we're going to war!"

There is no one to hold progress back now; hire the best possible people in every corporate, coaching and recruiting position.

It's like Everton are waiting for something to happen, rather than taking the front foot and actually making things happen. Do we even have a full board and every position filled and functioning, covering business and footballing structures at this point in time?

Eric Myles
194 Posted 16/01/2024 at 03:10:11
So we have a points deduction for going over the £105 million PSR allowance and now we've been charged again and presumably will suffer another points deduction that will surely result in relegation.

Then we can look forward to another points deduction in the Championship because the EFL PSR allowance is £35 million which we will have no chance of complying with.

Si Cooper
195 Posted 15/01/2024 at 04:15:46
The points I would stick with when discussing this with any non-Evertonians are:

1) 2 clubs who have potentially gained much more from their over-spending are somehow avoiding their ‘day in court'. That is clear evidence that the Premier League are more interested in quick ‘show trials' to demonstrate their ‘dedication' to regulating the clubs to an impatient Government, than treating all accused the same way.

2) By changing the timescale on scrutiny of the accounts, the Premier League created a situation where for one season only there was the potential to be punished for 2 successive breaches during one season. Either all of us can get a ‘double whammy' or no one should.

I'm not sure about the rolling punishment which means the same year's accounts can go against you three times, by which I mean I don't know if that is actually a reasonable rule or not even though it has some obvious potential flaws.

It can't be right to keep overspending after getting caught out so it doesn't make sense to be ‘immune' for a few years after each time you are sanctioned but you must be able to get some credit for trying to improve your finances.

The fact that the spending limits haven't been set to move with inflation is true and a fairly decent argument but the fans of compliant clubs will simply point out that other clubs have (apparently) been able to stick to the rules.

The Premier League have really handled the PSR stuff badly. It looks like they thought they might never have to actually prosecute anyone. Had they suspended our initial points deduction on the basis that they had created this potentially egregious ‘double whammy' situation, then I think they could have proceeded with the subsequent round of prosecutions, but now I just don't see how they could possibly justify giving us less than another 6 points deduction or possibly suspend the punishment for the second offence.

The whole point of the accelerated judgement is to take away the potential for relegated clubs to litigate on the basis that the cheating clubs were able to benefit from their cheating for an unjustifiably long time.

I don't think the Premier League would be vigorously pursuing this issue if it could easily ignore the whole bloody mess, but we have trussed ourselves up and landed in their lap just as they required a sacrificial lamb. They will plunge the dagger in without batting an eyelid if it gets the government off their backs, and then watch quite dispassionately to see if we survive or not.

Andy Duff
196 Posted 16/01/2024 at 07:23:18
Could Everton fans sue the Premier League for the cost of their season ticket back and stress?

I mean they have brought into question the whole integrity of the league. Everton could end up playing the whole season and get relegated after the final whistle as the appeal on the second charge will not be finalised until a week after the session finishes.

The season will ultimately be decided in a room not on the pitch.

When we bought a season ticket, it was to watch Everton compete and play in the Premier League this season. A points deduction like this twice in one season too means every game is worthless and this is not a competition.

Maybe a class action against them.

I would not be bothered about the money and would donate it to Everton in the Community if we won but imagine the press if the League got taken to court by fans.

Paul Hewitt
197 Posted 16/01/2024 at 07:26:23
There is literally no enjoyment in watching Everton and football anymore.
Wayne Dinkelman
198 Posted 16/01/2024 at 07:36:43
I say start a Go Fund Me page and purchase the stadium name whilst it's under construction and call it "The Premier League is Corrupt Park" which gives us more income and also means every time the stadium is mentioned whilst being built it will say the Premier League is corrupt.
Christy Ring
199 Posted 16/01/2024 at 08:05:03
So the Premier League are making up the rules as they go along, they're doing their best to relegate us. Oh yeah, and they are scrapping the rules in August. By then, we could be in the Championship and charges against Man City dropped because of the changes.

The government need to bring in an independent regulator now for fairness and equality.

Christopher Timmins
200 Posted 16/01/2024 at 08:52:26
Anybody still wondering why Gordon had to be sold last January? £45 million and better still, huge profit on his sale given his cost base in the accounts.

A very sad state of affairs and a terrible backdrop to a Cup tie tomorrow evening.

An earlier poster went with a total points deduction of 12, ie, 4 handed back from the fine for the 2021-22 period, and 6 added on for the 2022-23 period. If that comes to pass, we will survive; we would not survive the nightmare of a 20-point deduction.

Moshiri's and Kenwright's legacy will last for a long time.

Paul Cherrington
201 Posted 16/01/2024 at 08:59:00
To quote the great Victor Meldrew — "I don't believe it!".

This really is the death knell of football as a once great game in this country that was fair, honest and gave every team an equal chance of success. Add in the VAR, cheating players who fall over everytime someone breathes on them, and incompetent or corrupt refs, and the game has gone.

How the heck can we keep getting punished for the same thing over and over?! It makes no sense – we have already been hammered for this in the current season.

It's a farce for the Premier League to come back to do the same again when their original points deduction hasn't had the effect they obviously wanted it to (ie, send us to the bottom of the league and be a cert for relegation).

I think it's hard to argue against there being a clear agenda by the powers that be in football against us now. It stinks to high heaven and god knows how they get away with it.

Funny how they're so quick to charge and punish us under these rules so they can apply any sanctions in the current season – but just can't quite get around to dealing with Man City's hundred-plus breaches yet. Same as how Chelsea have yet to see any punishment or judgement on this issue.

Why the mad rush to hammer us at every available opportunity within the season but a snail-like pace to deal with teams like Man City on the same issue?

As usual, the so-called big teams do what they want and the rules are only applied to select clubs who the Premier League don't like or don't care about.

Mal van Schaick
202 Posted 16/01/2024 at 10:09:00
How can it be that Man City are charged and under an investigation that may take many months, and have no immediate penalty, and yet Everton are dealt swift punishment and a points deduction?

Those clubs who have allegedly broken financial rules, have to have their findings and punishment announced all at the same time, or else there is an unfair advantage during the current season.

For all that we know, Man City will have a massive points deduction and fine, after a time whereby Everton and Nottingham Forest are relegated?

Everton's lawyers should be pointing this out in mitigation of our defence and demand that our 10 points are returned pending the outcome of the other two accused clubs.

Michael Bennet
203 Posted 16/01/2024 at 10:39:38
After watching the FAB supporters meeting with Andy Burnham etc, regarding the money we need for more small bits of paper costing fortunes, I think we need to change tack and do what the fuckers across the park would do.

They would make their own massive flags and banners and wave them all the time... and the cameras won't be able to ignore them. What do others think on this?

Regarding the legal issues Andy Burham's speech was spot on with what he said but I think we are definitely fucked this season and next because the owner's mismanagement has shafted us good and propper.

Michael Boardman
204 Posted 16/01/2024 at 11:13:46
Man City, Chelsea – clearly bigger clubs than us.

Not interested in infighting, but the non-big 6 clubs should get together, as they don't like outsiders.

Remember, these chickens are scared.

Michael Boardman
205 Posted 16/01/2024 at 11:18:06
Paul Hewitt – I agree.

I've lost the interest. I used to watch everything on Sky etc, and was obsessed with football… now, I just don't care

Michael Boardman
206 Posted 16/01/2024 at 11:19:29
Thank you, Saudi-run Premier League, for ruining a passion.
Brian Williams
207 Posted 16/01/2024 at 11:58:50
According to Paul the Esk, we've still got nowt to worry about.

Paul the Esk tells Everton exactly why they are ‘not in breach’ of PSR despite PL charge

Apologies if this has already been posted.

Brendan McLaughlin
208 Posted 16/01/2024 at 12:06:55
Brian,

I saw that. The thing that strikes me is that the club's response to the latest breach didn't mention the capitalisation arguement and concentrated on the "double jeopardy" issue.

Perhaps Everton are keeping their powder dry?

James Fletcher
209 Posted 16/01/2024 at 12:12:21
The issue with the timing of sanctions and the speed of investigations is certainly a very strong argument that points deductions should not be within the scope of the punishments for this kind of offence.
Brian Williams
210 Posted 16/01/2024 at 12:13:14
Brendan.

Who knows, mate? To be honest, I'm just fed up with the whole thing.

It's actually ruining my own match-going experience. I'm wondering whether to have the "no interest in football" operation!

Brent Stephens
211 Posted 16/01/2024 at 12:19:11
Brian,

"I'm wondering whether to have the "no interest in football" operation!"

What, no balls, mate?!

Dan Parker
212 Posted 16/01/2024 at 12:23:28
The latest charge gives the Premier League the option of finishing us off if Sean Dyche and the team manage to pull off survival with the current 10-point deduction.

I'm sure glad he's manager at the moment, can't think of a better manager in the circumstances to lead the dressing room.

Dave Evans
213 Posted 16/01/2024 at 12:29:23
Some fans can feel how they feel but I for one am not going to let money-men owners and Premier League shysters diminish or determine the passion I have for the club.

Rather, my instincts are to want to gob right back in their faces, metaphorically speaking or otherwise.

If needs be, I will watch us play Fleetwood or Bury each week and, after a period of adjustment, I'd get just as excited or worked up.

So let us keep on pointing at the inherent elitism and unfairness of 'Financial Fair Play'. The biases to the 'Big Six'. The Man City can-kicking. The huge Man Utd debts. The Chelsea anomalies of oligarchs and net spends. The convenient blind eyes to Saudi and Emirates ownerships and much more.

We have many thousands of young fans who ain't going anywhere anytime soon. For them and for me, it's either the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock and a bright new future… or Bury here we come!

Simon Jones
214 Posted 16/01/2024 at 12:52:38
Andy #196,

Kind of the way my mind is working. It's pointless trying to argue with the Premier League about sporting sanctions as we are playing in their league.

However, the financial implications are massive for the club and it could be argued that the Premier League weakened the business of Everton FC irreparably if relegation occurs.

The fans suing the Premier League for the diminishing of our enjoyment and taking the sporting chance out of the games is an interesting one. You'd have to ask a lawyer if it stood a chance of ever getting to court, but I'd like to know.

Owning a season ticket for a club that gets turned into a lame duck mid-season on some panel's say-so certainly seems like a case of not getting what you paid for. As a season ticket holder, you have an expectation that, in the games you watch, Everton have a fair chance of winning and therefore staying in the Premier League. Discretionary, multi-point deductions certainly reduce that possibility.

Jeff Spiers
215 Posted 16/01/2024 at 13:05:57
Dave @15,

Spot on, mate.

Dan Parker
216 Posted 16/01/2024 at 13:20:57
Simon, I'm pretty sure here in the US we'd have a case.

Someone sued for Hershey's holiday candy tree not looking like it should on the wrapper.

Colin Malone
217 Posted 16/01/2024 at 13:40:16
Ed Prytherch,

I was of the understanding that the new stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock came into the accounts and interest rates.

Spurs built their stadium for £1B over 4 years: £250M a year. They also had players on high wages and mangers coming and going.

Confusing.

Christy Ring
218 Posted 16/01/2024 at 13:46:07
Shay Given made a great point that you had Grealish, De Bruyne on the bench last week for Man City.

They bought who they wanted, like the other supposedly Top 6 did, and then they brought in this new rule to stop other clubs being equal, and matching those clubs.

Mark Ryan
219 Posted 16/01/2024 at 14:03:32
I see we are going to be getting sponsored by Viagra.... I'll let you do the punchline.
Dale Self
220 Posted 16/01/2024 at 14:09:04
Brian, now is the time for testicular fortitude! Apologies to the women who read TW.

And Right On, Dave!

Dale Self
221 Posted 16/01/2024 at 14:23:26
Si, on no inflation adjustment: While it is true all clubs had the same limit, the early need for capitalization with new owners remains a valid criticism.

These new owners face a decline in real terms of the financial limit at a time when expected to invest beyond original capacity. No allowance for new owners while lowering the limit in real terms benefits those who have already invested.

It is as if the Premier League wanted to constrain newly capitalized clubs so they would need to offload players. This would be a considerable savings to the big clubs who buy those players.

So not only does the Premier League directly discriminate against new owner clubs; they also indirectly benefit the elite monocle-wearing bastards by giving them access to a pool of league-tested players scouted by other teams.

Ed Prytherch
222 Posted 16/01/2024 at 15:25:34
Lloyd,

I expect that Moshiri made the said loans to stadium construction rather than club operating costs because it is a lower-risk loan.

The stadium will be worth quite a bit when it is finished and very little if it is left unfinished. The club is a declining asset.

Andy Crooks
223 Posted 16/01/2024 at 15:29:55
Don, fucking uncanny, mate.

You have somehow got your hands on the first draft of Frost's "Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening". He did change it a bit, to be fair, but the core of it survived.

Ed Prytherch
224 Posted 16/01/2024 at 15:31:29
Colin,

Spurs did not have managers "coming and going" during stadium construction. Pochettino was there from 2014 to 2019.

Dave Lynch
225 Posted 16/01/2024 at 15:38:11
Steve,

A wage cap will only give the Super League more clout... they will offer obscene wages and we all know footballers love a pound note.

This is exactly what the Premier League is afraid of, a talent drain which would undermine their rhetoric of the being the "best league in the world".

It will never happen, mate.

Don Alexander
226 Posted 16/01/2024 at 16:09:18
Andy, cheers, but I'm fuckin well read like what you are mate.
Ralph Basnett
227 Posted 16/01/2024 at 16:11:03
Never thought I would hear myself say it but, if the inevitable happens, I would just look forward to watching Everton in whatever league we are in playing football without Moshiri, Kenwright, the Premier League or VARs interfering.

And to top it maybe a cup win against the shoite.

Andy Crooks
228 Posted 16/01/2024 at 16:49:44
Don, 👍
Brian Wilkinson
229 Posted 16/01/2024 at 17:11:33
For a rule change in the Premier League, you need a two-thirds majority to pass the new change.

So, with two-thirds of clubs not in the exclusive Top 6 clubs, why don't the rest bring in a vote to scrap VAR, and also allow other clubs to compete more fairly in the transfer market? If they have owners who have the money to spend, then let the drawbridge back down for other clubs.

At the moment, those at the top are getting more revenue and prize money each year, allowing them to spend more, while the rest have their hands tied.

Alan Corken
230 Posted 16/01/2024 at 18:19:32
Paul Hewitt @208. Hope you are keeping well.

I can't say that I share your confidence that we will get all 10 points back. In saying that, in any reasonable adjudication, I believe we should have a good chance of having the penalty withdrawn or reduced. The main reason for this is that 10 points was disproportionate to the offence,

I think most football people, even those in red, accept that. I mean, in today's game, how material is £19.5M?

The commission's refusal to entertain our mitigating arguments seems churlish in the extreme. Their refusal to countenance that 1. Criminal charges brought against one of our chief assets (which turned out to be without substance) and 2. the impact on a key sponsor as a consequence of the first major war in Europe in 70 years, are occurrences that might be encountered in the normal world of business, stretches credibility to breaking point.

Any fair-minded review would have to conclude that either of these 'exceptional' events could easily have given rise to the £19.5M additional deficit.

The league's lack of clear guidance on PSR, the stupidity of not increasing limits to match inflation, and the anti-competitive nature of the rules that punish ambition and protect those clubs which had spent heavily before PSR.

All of these point to a system that is not fit for purpose.
Does that mean we will get the points back and not face further punishment? Well, it should… but to be honest, the Premier League is a mess, it has sold its soul to the highest bidder, including to sovereign wealth funds attached to some very dubious nations.

Those in charge are trying to give an impression of control, but without the competence or adequate structures in place to do so. In a sane world, they would recognise that the entire basis of the league is squalid and dysfunctional. They might even aim to reset it perhaps modelled on the Bundesliga, with club fans front and centre.

In reality that isn't going to happen, it is too late. The Premier League is a morally bankrupt behemoth incapable of reform from the inside. So what does all of this mean for Everton?

Will they push the sanctions all the way or will they acknowledge the unfairness and back down? Quite frankly, their decision will not be based on the veracity of Everton's case; instead, it comes down to which course of action is more likely to expose the Premier League to greater ridicule and therefore enhance the chances of government regulation.

Peter Mills
231 Posted 16/01/2024 at 21:37:11
Alan.

Excellent.

Colin Malone
232 Posted 16/01/2024 at 22:32:04
When was FFP introduced?

The concept of FFP was established by Uefa in 2009 and implemented at the start of the 2011-12 season.

The basic premise of FFP was to ensure that clubs were not spending more than they earned and, in doing so, prevent them from falling into financial trouble which could threaten their existence.

Spurs built their £1 billion stadium in 2015, finished 2019 = £250 million a season. Where they making £250 million each season at White Hart Lane?

Si Cooper
233 Posted 16/01/2024 at 23:40:50
“So not only does the Premier League directly discriminate against new owner clubs; they also indirectly benefit the elite monocle-wearing bastards by giving them access to a pool of league-tested players scouted by other teams.”

Yes, Dale. I've posted before why it perfectly suits the Premier League bosses to have a cadre of ‘elite' clubs to dominate all European / global club football comps, thus demonstrating ‘their' league is the best in the world.

It is far easier for them to have a set-up that perpetuates a two-tier league and enriches the richest, rather than permitting the potential for weaker teams to occasionally flirt with glory when they have a much more remote chance of success in Europe at the same time.

Lee Robinson
234 Posted 17/01/2024 at 12:23:23
The thing is these rules were brought in apparently to stop what happened to Portsmouth, clubs going bust effectively.

But the outcome of penalising clubs with fines, sanctions or points penalties is single handedly killing clubs also, which is surely not was the intention of the orginal reason for FFP.

Two rounds of points deductions would surely relegate Everton and the time of building a stadium would be catastrophic.

So rules brought in to protect are doing the opposite via gross mismanagement from the Premier League.

Everton have proven in the last 3 years that having guidelines do work as we have sold players and cut down on wage bill etc, but having penalties in place just defeats the whole object.

Alec Gaston
235 Posted 17/01/2024 at 14:48:29
It seems the issue is and always was that the Everton Board tried to hoodwink the Premier League over interest costs they said related to the new stadium and weren't specifically for this.

The sanction is what we need to be focusing on and getting that reduced or removed based on no sporting advantage

Kevin Palmer
236 Posted 17/01/2024 at 17:56:30
Steve Cotton

Ah, but Steve, the point of PSR and the lack of a wage cap is to protect the Big 6 (or is it 7 now?) from any upstarts challenging their oligarchy.

Colin Malone
237 Posted 18/01/2024 at 13:58:48
So if Aston Villa decide they want to build a stadium, under these present bent rules, they would get points deducted?
Rob Halligan
238 Posted 18/01/2024 at 14:34:24
Received a WhatsApp message from a mate yesterday, saying that hidden amongst Man City's 115 charges, are seven PSR charges from 2015-16 upto and including 2017-18. So that's three consecutive seasons they are alleged to have failed to comply with PSR.

Like almost everything else nowadays, this is from a Twitter account, so don't know if it's true or not? We shall have to wait and see!

John Wilson
239 Posted 20/01/2024 at 11:37:12
Dave, on the previous related thread, said there are corrupt institutions and made reference to the Post Office scandal. I do court stuff and can tell you that the most powerful institutions are capable of being the most corrupt.

There are corrupt family courts, corrupt Magistrates Courts and corrupt Crown Courts. Where there is a corrupt Senior Judge like a HH Judge, there is often a corrupt Chief of Police that uses Magistrates: District Judge or lay Justices of the Peace and HH Judges, Legal Advisor to Justices as though those government institutions were the Chief of Police's place of business and therein employees.

I know of situations where they use fake names by slightly changing the name and gaslight. People have no idea unless part of the system. Richard Masters is a private educated out-of-touch Tory whose prejudice comes out like a Freudian slip were the norm.

John Wilson
240 Posted 20/01/2024 at 11:47:27
Man City are set up as several companies, though under the Citylabel. The issue is they are set up to make it difficult to find out which company has done the wrong-doing.

Counsel lawyer for Man City probably keeps adjourning where the Premier League investigation entity requests Disclosure.

Everton in contrast were entrapped, it could be argued, and volunteered Disclosure of sensitive documents to enable prosecution.

Les Callan
241 Posted 20/01/2024 at 12:06:34
John.

I was a magistrate for almost 20 years, and did not come across any hint of corruption whatsoever.

John Wilson
242 Posted 20/01/2024 at 12:22:21
Les, I currently have certain Justices of the Peace under investigation by a Secretary and Deputy Secretary of Advisory Committee.

Corruption at said criminal courts happens but not in the majority of cases. There are genuine magistrates and genuine judges and other professionals, but many in the family courts are corrupt.

My broad point is that powerful institutions have capacity in some circumstances to be corrupt. The Premier League for its treatment against Everton could be corrupt with a small c, where there are grades and degrees of or for corruption.

Simon Harrison
243 Posted 20/01/2024 at 22:07:37
I see absolutely no admission of guilt in the cub's statement at all..?

Rather, a conclusion reached that having to present, in essence, the same figures as previously submitted, less any transfer business done in the summer window of 2023, for this season's PSR calculation, having to be resubmitted as part of the Premier League's 'new commitment' and subsequent, non-voted for, rule change to have all PSR cases reviewed in-season.

I think that this would actually add weight to our (the club's) second hearing, that yet again, just as in the first hearing, that goal-posts have been moved to suit the Premier League and their efforts to make themselves look capable of self-policing the interests of their season-by-season changing shareholders.

Just my take on the matter, and trying to be as impartial and objective as possible in all this.

Brendan McLaughlin
244 Posted 20/01/2024 at 23:06:29
Simon,

The Premier League released a statement that Everton admitted they had breached the PSR limit.

Everton didn't deny this, choosing instead to focus on the "double jeopardy" irrelevance.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
246 Posted 21/01/2024 at 08:54:54
Sorry to go all skwelly on you, Simon, but I had to move your post here as it just repeated the club statement about the second breach and said nothing about the appeal, which is the topic of the thread you posted on.

Brendan,

I suspect the sense of 'guilt' comes from the part where it says "the club is in a position where it has had no option but to submit a PSR calculation…" without actually saying that calculation shows they are technically in breach again under the parameters set by the first commission's findings?

You are right in that the Premier League's news item boldy states:

The two clubs have each confirmed to the Premier League that they are in breach of the League's Profitability and Sustainability Rules

Therefore, my belief is that the 'confirmation' the Premier League are referring to is the PSR calculation itself, and not some separate confirmation, which would not be necessary anyway.


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