Just another go around the Sean Dyche rollercoaster

Seriously though, some really good detail and context in that write up. Keep them coming.

Michael, I am unsure why some pine for Moyes as if it is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Let's not forget, a lot of supporters got frustrated with him and amongst many, he left on bad blood. He denied it, but it seemed clear that he had been talking to Ferguson and Manchester United for several months.

For me, the tipping point was the Wigan Cup match, closely followed by the semi-final second-half surrender to them when they were there for taking. Too many times when the expectation was there, he bottled it. Very unpopular at West Ham, despite delivering them a trophy.

I think Dyche is in the job until the end of season, unless new owners come in and change things.

I would rather look elsewhere. Look at what Brighton did. And years ago, Southampton with Pochettino.

Cast the net. Moyes is the past.

I think it is the closest I have come across to what happens under Dycheball.

The man who ran his contract down after being tapped up by SAF. Who blew his big chance and didn't last a season. Who after 25 years as a manager finally won a trophy for a club whose fans couldn't stand him.

I mean there are quite a few progressive mangers out there. But no let's go back to Dour Dave and KITAP1. Who wants progress when we can stay in the Dark Ages?

In case you are unsure, it is a big fat No from me.

Dyche is no one’s dream manager but he is a very good fit for the players and resources we have had for the past 3 years.

Most neutrals I know will look at our squad and say that’s a relegation bunch of players but Dyche will keep you up. It’s not pretty but it tends to be effective and I think he deserves more credit for last season. So many of our fans have never taken to him.

Once we have a new owner and a new stadium and hopefully some more financial freedom then perhaps we might aspire to a bit more than pragmatism but such transitions can be dangerous to make and must be layed on solid foundations.

If the player achieves the stats that suits and commits to his system, they will get selected. Gaffer Day could be a test of commitment to him and his system, hence out-of-favour players.

In Calvert-Lewin's case, he has always worked hard in training.

Below is a link to a piece doing the rounds a while ago but gives you a sense of what Dyche is about.

https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/sean-dyche-masterclass-burnley-liverpool/

Correct Danny, Moyes ship has not only sailed but been torpedoed into the abyss en route to his comfy sofa in Punditland.

He, in my opinion, did an exceptional job when he was here considering the financial constraints he worked under but the team he built seemed hamstrung by his negativity.

Think back to the team including Pienaar, Arteta, Baines etc and then think what a forward thinking manager could have done with them.

It will be interesting to see how Brighton's new school leaver manager adapts to the Premier League with a more youthful approach. I do think that Michael @1 is being a bit mischievous though!

Jerome @6. I think you have it bang on too over players percentages. Bristol City fans referred to Lee Johnson as 'Streaky Lee' as he had a similar mindset to Dyche. Losing run, few changes. Kick the dog till it does what it told.

I suppose it works but the only way we stopped the rot last year was due to an appalling mistake from the Burnley keeper allowing Dom to score. So the percentages rely on luck as well, which is the direct opposite.

I'd like to see the Dyche Masterclass from the Spurs game, or the Chelsea game last season, or indeed, the many games we've lost that we at least expected to turn up but didn't.

It's full of observations that had me nodding in agreement. I think you have nailed it.

Silk purses from sow's ears? Can Pep do that? Would he have us playing silky footy and winning more, had he taken the reins rather than Dyche, post Lampard?

We will never know. I am not confident he would have though. The transfer fees and wages needed for the likes of Haaland and De Bruyne doubtless help him. It would be interesting to see him try hey.

Could Dyche win things with Man City's squad? Do you think he would inform them not to create chances, to not be able to hit a cow's arse with a banjo? Nor me. Would be interesting to see though hey. Not gonna happen of course.

Dyche is working with the least financial support in the Premier League, trying to get us up the table. I believe he will and am thankful for his absolute dedication and qualities for the difficult task. Good luck to him, and us. COYB.

I understand your description of Dyche but the accumulation of 36 points was beaten by 12 points last year in Dyche's second season with the club with a threadbare inherited squad.

As you say, he's not the best but you couldn't think of another manager who did what he did under the conditions he was working under.

So that will do for me until we are out of the mess other people got us into over many, many years and then think about someone else in., and we are in a bigger mess now than ever and I don't think Dyche can be blamed for that even with the faults he has.

Bottom line is that Dyche is very much a realist and given the limited squad and money that Everton have, that's exactly what we need now.

Of course we don't play good football which is a disappointment but we don't have the players nor finances to improve this situation. If/when we do, then one can truly judge him. And after 10 games not 2!!!

Really good original post. Perhaps it can be summed up by this little rhyme:

Under Dyche
You'll win some
You'll lose some
And it won't always be fun!

I completely agree about him playing the percentages. I said all last year that his approach was to make games close and wretched in the knowledge that we had just a little bit more quality and experience than our direct rivals. The footballing equivalent of a casino taking bets on red and black while having 0 on the roulette wheel to tilt the odds in their favour. Keep spinning the wheel and over the long term, the results will be as expected...

I'm not so sure about the streakiness though... the second 'streak' was pretty easy to explain.

Burnley (H)
Forest (H)
Liverpool (H) – the exception!
Brentford (H)
Sheffield Utd (H)

They were the wins. With our survival in the balance, the Goodison crowd up for it, and most crucially very poor opposition in town, we got results. And we still needed luck – we were dreadful against Burnley and Forest.

The Liverpool game was a massive outlier. I still can't quite figure out how that was the moment to get on the front foot. Nor how it wasn't a massive awakening for the club. We actually can attempt to win games.

He'll undoubtedly play the same game this year. He's got nothing else to offer. But the odds don't seem to be getting better for us. And if we lose Calvert-Lewin, I'm not convinced Dyche's brand of patience gambling will be enough.

Recently, I went to Goodison for the first time in a very long while. A few points struck me.

Against Brighton, most of our players are just not Premier League standard. It's easy to see why we score so few goals. Calvert-Lewin has little ammunition but is only League One level anyway.

We are so boring to watch. So will Dyche perform another miracle and keep us up with these players? I think it will be difficult without decent strikers.

Personally, I wouldn't be going to Goodison often to watch Dyche's attritional football.

Being from Burnley I was quite familiar with this pattern from Dyche, but I had no idea about the Federer stat... I'll be bringing that up in the pub at the weekend!

I honestly don't think it's the results that frustrate us as, for 2 seasons before Sean Dyche, we were very poor, it is his continued selection of his favourites.

If he'd selected O'Brien and Dixon instead of Keane and Young and we'd still have lost 3-0 to Brighton, I seriously doubt the criticism would have been as harsh. We would have said things like, "Young team, they need time to develop".

I posted on another thread that I would love to know if there is an Evertonian anywhere on earth that thinks Ashley Young should be playing, and what are their reasons for this? To me, it seems only Dyche thinks Ashley brings anything to the team, it's the most mystifying continued selection of a player I've ever seen in over 30 years of going to Goodison.

Sean Dyche certainly doesn't help himself.

I don't think Young should be playing, but I can see why he fits into Dyche's percentage football plan.

I would say he is a committed professional in training. As for Seamus, he is that committed, he would go through a brick wall.

As to being 'streaky' I remember the England cricket coach, Duncan Fletcher [talking about Marcus Trescothick, who was very hit and miss] saying: 'A 250 and 2 zeros wins you Test matches... 3 times 30 doesn't'!

With a squad such as ours the availability of players of sufficient quality, form and fitness is the critical factor in achieving wins. A year ago it was not until September that the manager had anything like a full squad available.

Once Branthwaite, Calvert-Lewin and Harrison settled into the team we started to look an effective unit. The away wins at Brentford, Villa in the Carabao Cup, West Ham and Crystal Palace were all achieved before the points deduction. In that period the team looked durable and potent in front of goal playing to its strengths primarily as a counterattacking unit.

Those strengths were less evident in home games in which we enjoyed more possession but struggled to penetrate supposedly weaker opponents, most notably Luton (twice). The lack of viable options for a change of attacking style has been addressed this summer with the additions of Ndiaye and Lindstrøm, arguably the best we could attract on a limited budget.

Once they are fully up to speed I expect results will improve but inevitably there will be periods of poor form when injuries, suspensions and fatigue kick in.

We will just have to live with that. The biggest test for most managers other than those of the elite clubs is how they manage their way out of a poor run. Some wilt under the pressure. Others like Dyche, Moyes and their ilk steer their way through it by keeping their players focused and believing positive results will come eventually.

A lot of folks seem to focus on Young and Keane as the weak points, but I just don't see what Harrison offers going forward, McNeil is hot and cold, but more often tepid.

If Bournemouth apply themselves like they did against Newcastle it will be a tough match, will it be an up or a down on the Sean Dyche Rollercoaster ride?

We all realise that needs must and whichever way we play that gets enough points on the board to retain our status as a top-flight club, will prove the right one.

However, if we take the fact that 48 points were gained last year, why are we so concerned that we'll suffer a loss of upwards of 25% points this season?

Could the reason be the way Dyche approaches the game and sets up his sides? It just doesn't inspire confidence, even if it might ultimately achieve what the majority of Evertonians want.

Brilliant article, everything you've said here confirms why he needs to be given one more season and then replace him.

He's a stopgap measure, he's done a great job in that vein, I thank him, I'm not churlish. But, long term he's turning us into Burnley — if we're not already there.

We need to dream bigger than this, we will not accept 12-15 game dire winless streaks.

It would be a fascinating thought experiment to have Pep swap with Dyche. What would happen? My hunch is that Dyche could still win the Premier League, albeit with lesser likelihood, whereas Pep would probably get us relegated. That's no reflection on him, just that he needs several years to drill his plans into his players and indeed assemble a team that can deliver them.

Even at Man City, who already had good players, he didn't win anything in his first season there.

You have clearly given a lot of thought to this terrific article.

You think the players at Man City would respond well to Dyche's methods and they would win the Premier League? Haha, that's funny.

Or, are you saying Dyche would adapt to play high-line, high-tempo football and win the League in the style they are accustomed to? Haha. either way that's a hilarious proposition and something that would never come close to happening in this Universe or beyond so isn't even worth discussing.

But, I do enjoy a good laugh.

So yes, Dyche, with that squad might not optimise them like Pep does, but he would be in with a decent shout of winning the league with them, at least for the first season. Hell, even you would be...

Seriously, a pretty good article diagnosing the rights and wrongs of our current manager. I read an article pre-season, (think it was in the Athletic), who explained in great detail, Dyche's reliance on stats, stats, and more stats, certainly, this well penned article reinforces that theory.

To repeat many people on here, what lunatic in their right mind, would take on the Everton manager's role at the minute?

No funds to buy ourselves out of trouble, a Board of Directors that have gone AWOL, and a set of fairly average players, with one or two exceptions.

Stay up this season, and let's see what next spring brings, hopefully new owners, who are committed to stopping the decline, a new ground, and hopefully additional revenue.

Oh yes, and a 'Pep' type wannabe, looking for his first steps in management.

We won't see any changes till we're sold to someone with both deeper pockets and business acumen.

I suspect Dyche won't be given the chance to show if he can work with a better set-up.

In the meantime, I'd keep him in there till at least when we're in a position to do more.

Just My opinion!

We can't do much better at this point, unfortunately for us as spectators.

Dyche takes lower-level players and gives them a lower-level gameplan. If he tried to implement his style on Man City then they'd be out of the title race by October.

Both are idealists or theorists in their own way.

We need a pragmatist. That great word that somehow gets attached to Dyche despite him very clearly not being one. 'Pragmatist' doesn't mean basic. It doesn't mean crap. It doesn't mean conservative. It means you deal with what you have. Dyche doesn't – he's going to do what he's doing regardless of what we have.

This squad isn't as bad as he's making it look.

If you are playing this percentage football which by design, as you say, is basically, give or take a few tweaks for playing the top 4/5 teams, playing the same way every week, then when a few results do not go your way, morale can drain so quickly because you keep picking the same players and playing in the same way.

This actually seems like not just an ultra basic way to manage a football team but also, utterly stupid. Dyche does seem to change things eventually and find a new formula. This season, as most of us can see, it will be about putting Ndaiye and Lindstrøm in the starting XI, and of course, O'Brien.

How long is this going to take to materialise? We can all see it needs doing now. Young, Keane. Gueye, Harrison, Doucoure should not be starting. Come November, none of these will be regular starters; why not do it now, will that not help build a new team more quickly?

Or is it more about the complexities of the ‘The Group' and squad morale and senior player bullshit, playing his favourites and keeping the alpha male contingent happy or they'll poison the squad with their moaning?

No doubt it's a hard job. But I think Dyche makes it harder than it needs to be. He is a weak leader, a fake alpha male bullshit artist, in thrall to players like Doucoure, Gueye and Young who are shite nearly every week, but respect his percentage statistics and do their job to the exact incompetent levels his stupid methods require.

He is a weak leader, a fake alpha male bullshit artist, in thrall to players like Doucoure, Gueye and Young who are shite nearly every week, but respect his percentage statistics and do their job to the exact incompetent levels his stupid methods require.

Brilliant summing up. I'm not one for pithy quotes but I might just get that embroidered on my keyboard cover.

The only 'alpha male' I know comfortable in a dress. Just saying like.

Andrea, good post. He is increasingly becoming a "I know best" character, which is a shame because he's done a decent job in the circumstances.

But that will only last so long.

You too, even though you are not saying it in so many words, are citing (and therefore blaming) Dyche for the awful football our players dish up on a regular basis The inference being that it is Dyche's fault. It may well be his fault if they are doing exactly what they are told but I have difficulty in accepting that is always the case.

Just recently (after the Spurs stuffing I think) I castigated Dyche (for the tactics) and the players (for their lack of effort). This article made me think about this criticism.

The conclusion I came too, rightly or wrongly, was that I asked myself "When have professional players done exactly as they are told?" — when it is foreign to all they have been previously been coached or told.

The simple fact is, I don't think they have. They invariably tweak instructions to make them more to their liking. In other words, the players at times think they know better than the manager or coach and do what they think fit and bugger the consequences.

What I am saying is that it can't be all down, good and bad, to Dyche and the coaches, the performance of the team is a shared responsibility.

I know that the manager carries the can traditionally for this but it is much more complicated than that and that is usually a cop-out anyway.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

Surely by this time, Dyche would have addressed any player or players who weren't carrying out his general instructions and dealt with them appropriately, by leaving them out of the starting eleven or dropping them from the squad completely.

Obviously some players will adopt the methods that they have learned over most of their careers, for example, Gueye isn't going to change his style after so many seasons playing top level football. It could also be argued that most of the time, it is difficult to drop any player due to the overall squad size and talent available.

It's probably six of one and half a dozen of the other as to whether the players or the manager is to blame for what some see as a needless leaning towards negative football.

There could also be a case that some of the players are chasing 'stats' to woo the manager, rather than taking chances and the manager losing faith in them because their metrics don't meet the manager's expectations.

He's had an open chequebook at Man City, spend almost £1.3B and it still took him nearly 7 years to win the Champions League, a competition his all conquering "Centurians" domestic team were knocked out of by Spurs and lost a final to Chelsea.

Which team was it that handed him his largest domestic defeat in any league? Oh yeah, Everton.

My thoughts @38 were just that. Thoughts. As a Manager you would think that Dyche would take note at least of players that weren't taking notice of their instructions and do something to right that wrong but it seems not. That may partially explain things. I don't know what the answer is but something isn't working.

As I said in my post, they were just my thoughts. I didn't give solutions. I'm afraid I'm not clever enough or qualified to do so. I asked the question whilst leaving it to the manager, who is paid to provide solutions to change things, as that is his job not mine.

ps: If the players aren't doing what they have been told maybe the manager needs to change what they are told - and we all live happily ever after.

I'd much prefer a manager who changes the percentages by improving the team. Where in Dyche's history has he managed that, made the changes that changed the percentages and for the long term?

We can't all win the League or continue mid-table but the longer you hang around the bottom the more likely it will catch up with you. Pep, Ancellotti and quite a few others must have quite a knack with percentages, eh?

He's clearly not getting teams game-ready at the start of the season where he manages.

We needed to stabilise and get what was a poor squad playing for each other and fighting for the shirt. It was all about survival and doing anything possible to stay in the Premier League.

With all that happened with points deductions and lack of money he did what was basically a good job although apart from a couple of good games (Brighton, Liverpool) performances were mostly poor, but we're still in the Premier league.

New season, new challenges, new expectations.

We've brought in a couple of more attack-minded players, what looks like a decent central midfielder and a young decent centre-back.

We don't need to be told we have no money, we already know. We also know that again it's going to be a difficult season on and off the pitch.

What we want from Dyche is a team formation and mindset that actually offers an attacking threat and doesn't start every game looking for a nil-nil draw.

Dyche is here for the foreseeable future, at least until the ownership problems are solved, but he needs to realise that more and more fans are turning against him and his style of play, which is also affecting how we view the players and the team.

He needs to change, but he won't change.

I think already everyone is just wishing the season was over, we had survived the season, we had new owners and Dyche was gone.

I like to see Mr Dyche as a really good Supply Teacher in a secondary school.

Safe in that he's not going to have anarchy or chaos in his classroom. His lessons are identikit in their construction – they all blend into one.

But it's that forgettable and predictable quality that is needed in this moment in time to get to the end of the academic year with this challenging and, at times, snidely belligerent group of students.

I do hope this thread continues to grow, because it has made me smile, reading some of the descriptions and contradictions that have followed so far!

Just saying

Again.

Dyche is certainly a manager who polarises opinion, from the man who saved us from relegation to the manager whose style of play epitomises anti-football. And probably there's some truth in both positions.

One thing I'm convinced of, however, is that he will be our manager until his contract expires at the end of the season.The club won't want to buy out his contract and who would make the decision anyway?An absentee owner who couldn't care less about the club or a group of ineffectual Directors?

As I understand it, no talks are underway about renewing his contract as yet; so, if we ever get new owners, they will be the ones to make the decision.

There's going to be a time lag though between new owners coming in and money being made available to build the squad and that could take years. I know this seems ultra negative but I believe it to be the reality and we are likely to continue to struggle for the next couple of years.

The absolute bottom line is that we must be in the Premier League next season and just maybe, despite all his shortcomings, Dyche is the best man to achieve this.

He's very efficient at what he does and keep teams up… there is a handful of teams in the Premier League who would snap your arm off for Dyche. All the newly promoted teams plus a few others would have him all day…

We don't need to try and play clever impressive football until we comfortably have the squad to do so. We need to win 40 points ugly and move ground, finish top-half or 10th maybe in a few seasons then get someone in to risk it for the biscuit… I don't want to be another Burnley or Luton, playing well and going down.

Let's scrape to 40 points and keep it rolling. Anyone who wants us to try and play like prime Barca would have us relegated. See Frank the Wank.

Funny how his narrative has changed from xG last season to risk-reward this season. He is of his age and won't change his ways at this stage.

I'm struggling to think of any manager who radically altered their footballing philosophy in order to stay relevant and successful, apart from Alex Ferguson maybe. Hmmm...

Oh, and great article, Matt, fair play.

Obviously there are matches where a defensive mode is to be recommended but every chuffing game against every opponent, home or away?

I would alter the rules of football whereby a goalless draw gets both teams zero points, and a score-draw gains one point. At least then you'd have to score to take something from a game.

Peter @41

I know I used your name and post number, but I wasn't having a go at you personally. I was merely expounding on the points that you made.

Few, if any of us are qualified to find solutions to Everton's issues, but we all proffer an opinion, which is what this site facilitates.

I would also not characterise him as a weak leader or bullshit artist. He was the only leadership voice last season, representing the club to the media when the club executive leadership disappeared from view. He had to front our response to two points deductions and appeals, reports of impending insolvency, player sales, relegation and all kinds of hostile reporting. Has any Everton manager had to deal with such a terrible hand?

He may be a one-dimensional manager and, at times, his convervatism in selection and tactics has driven me mad. But, let's not falsely characterise him.

If he gets us to the new stadium in the Premier League, then it will be a job well done.

Not massively different to long spells under Moyes – except for periods where Moyes had managed to assemble good squads. Not massively different to spells under Ancelotti and Allardyce either.

The main difference is with the three managers at most risk of taking us down, Martinez, Silva and Lampard – each of whom lost their nerve to some degree and seemed to lose confidence in their own tactics, formation and personnel selections. Koeman was just a wanker.

I assume Plan A for the season was to pick up 2 or 3 points from the opening two games as we gradually introduced the new boys and transition to something less reliant (or not solely reliant) on percentages.

The injury crisis has messed that up – and our lack of funds to cover key positions. But I doubt it has really changed how Dyche and Thelwell will be approaching the season. After all, there are still 36 league games left to recover the 2 or 3 points we might have hoped for by this stage.

It's a long season and I think Dyche will have confidence that good streaks will offset the bad if he keeps up with the percentages. If we can secure some better players, it seems logical to expect that the good streaks will get longer too.

We cannot fault Sean after everything his staff and players went through last season: points deductions, no money, how many managers would have pulled it off? We know he's managing with one hand tied behind his back, with a DoF trying to bring in players with no money upfront.

He does himself no favours, regarding formation and team selections, picking Harrison and Doucoure against Spurs after their performance against Brighton, and having to bring them off again, and playing 4-4-2 and our midfield wide open on the break?

He has to see we need an extra midfielder, hopefully Garner will be there on Saturday, and 3 upfront with Ndiaye and Calvert-Lewin please. Dom, apart from his contract issues, must be totally perplexed making darting runs for nothing!

As for streaky, I am a great believer that you make your own luck. If you have 20-odd shots at goal, you're going to get the odd streaky goal. Also, if you spend 70 per cent of your time in the opposition box, you're going to get the odd streaky penalty.

As for Pep doing anything with our squad, don't make me laugh. His achievements are nothing compared to Carlo or even Mourinho.

Dyche has done an incredible job in the terrible circumstances with which he has had to endure and, much as we don't like the style of football, it has seen us stay in the Premier League.

I am sure he wants to develop a more offensive style because that is what humans want to do is evolve, and we have seen that with a couple of our latest additions.

So I for one am prepared to cut him some slack because I am sure we will be fine this season.

Any higher percentage winners manage the top teams and lower percentage winners or losers get relegated.

Does anyone think if we swapped managers for say the Bayern Munich, Portugal, Holland or City manager that all of a sudden Doucoure, Young, Keane, Coleman, Tarkowski or Mykolenko would all of a sudden become better players?

We would try and play to a philosophy and soon get found out.

What do people think about the performances against Chelsea, Liverpool or Newcastle last season. Did we play percentage football in those games?

Or the early season games where we played teams off the park with good football, such as Fulham or Wolves, only to get beaten.

When we get a new billionaire owner, we will no doubt get another manager.

Football is full of alpha male characters, stubborn, resilient hard-nosed, thick-skinned types because rejection or the fear of failing isn't an option.

I would love nothing better than Lee Carsley as the boss with a war chest full of money and a healthy PSR balance so that we can compete but ,in the real world, we haven't got a pot to piss in, are walking a tight rope financially, and have an owner who doesn't give a shite.

We are being outspent by everyone.

As a club, we are in the trenches, who do people want to get us out of them? Who is best suited to the battle?

Other than Howard Kendall and Joe Royle, I don't think an Everton manager has achieved as much as Dyche given the exemptional circumstances we as a club are suffering.

I am under no illusion. We are competing with 5 or 6 teams to stay away from the Bottom 3 spots; it's not going to be pretty.

An excellent analysis of the YoYo form of Burnley and Everton under Sean Dyche. However, could it not be argued that the commonality is in fact very small squads?

You know, you get one or two first team players injured and the small squad finds it difficult to replace them and results start to go against them.

The crowd gets on the players' and manager's backs and a small drop becomes a precipitous fall, particularly when they meet some of the better equipped teams.

They only recover when the more senior players return. I am reminded that Sean said that he started with only 14 regulars at Spurs.

Separately, I find it hard to criticise the performance of Michael Keane so far this season. To me, he has been by far Everton's best defender and distributor in the first 3 games. I know this is not fashionable and everyone loves a bandwagon but I can only judge him on what I have seen in these 3 games.

I'd say it's 85% the players and 15% the manager. If we had Man City's players, we might not win the Premier League but you can bet your house that we wouldn't be far off.

If you only get the chance to manage teams that are of inferior quality you will likely be classed alongside your players.

Yes, the football is usually dire, as it is for most other clubs in the bottom third, but what can he do with the calamity he now realises he's taking on?

He's already openly inferred more criticism than Marcel Brands did to get sacked so to me, like Brands, he's honest and I therefore respect him as a man.

And to those who undervalue the significance of having much better, costlier players at a manager's disposal, I just point to Eddie Howe. At Bournemouth, he did mid-table with a marginally better squad than ours (and all our squads have been poor since Kenwright conned our Monaco Muppet) yet at Newcastle, with a much better squad, he's got them close to Top 4.

Silk purses out of sow's ears an' all that!

Some like him, some detest him, some believe he's a necessity, a deal with the devil, others have more nuanced views.

We know he will play probably the same team as at Spurs, hopefully not Brighton, the other manager must know this as well. How is this great leadership, strictly on a match-day football level?

When things are going badly the worst qualities of his personality really irritate. The xG chat, and all that.

He needs to halt this early bad League run before the break, and he is going to make that harder for himself, probably, by starting Dwight, Calvert-Lewin and Harrison up front, with Doucoure in behind.

Unless we get that early chance put away, we know it's going to be grim and hard to score. We all know this, and yet we still go, we still believe, and he does not know or seem to care how to tap into the power of this raw belief, he takes all the emotion out of the game.

I do not want all-out kamikaze football, but just tap into the energy of this great stadium a little bit, please, in our final season here, at least in the first fifteen minutes of the game.

No one looks forward to this garbage, and we have a right to moan and complain about it, it's not negative, it's constructive.

I want Dyche constructively dismissed, at the end of this season, sadly, looks like the most realistic and sensible point.

Even if we are under new ownership next year, in all likelihood he'll see out the season and his contract.

That's why he brought Harrison back, even though he was part of last season's right-side attack that was highly ineffective, to put it mildly. And that's why Doucoure starts every game, even though he hinders our ability to execute on the counter-attack.

Given the players at his disposal, the turmoil behind the scenes, the potential threat of points deductions, he's doing as good a job as could be expected. I guess if the end justifies the means, then I don't really have a problem with it.

According to some sources, Everton will run out of cash in October.

It will be interesting to see what the ownership situation looks like then.

Not saying we won't be in the relegation mix with Dyche but he's an experienced "drop survivalist".

Anyhow, I'm there for the first time in years this weekend thanks largely to the generosity of Tony Abrahams.

I'm 65 but feel like a kid looking forward to Santa.

Many people have the opinion of Dyche as a manager who overachieves. Isn't that success, or is he not overachieving enough?

Why do we slag off our own, and praise other clubs as examples of what we should be? Brighton, Brentford, and Luton for example, all playing attractive football according to various posters. Luton (relegated), playing attacking football; Brentford (finished behind us); Brighton (level with us), and of course managed by that genius De Zerbi, who bailed out on them due to their 'lack of ambition'. Imagine him being loyal to Everton in our current plight!

Of course, we are so unfortunate of have Dyche, without whom we would be sunk. Let's get shut of him as soon as we have used him for the bad times, and get someone sexy when we are more prosperous. Yes, let's repay his loyalty that way, and we can all look back to these days when we were dire, and put all the blame on him. Please don't point out how well paid he is to endure the mess he has had to manage. he could go elsewhere to be well paid.

His contract is up at season's end, and there is speculation that it will not be renewed, especially with new owners. He might just be looking forward to getting away from the mess he has had to endure. I for one would not blame him.

I sort of agree but how come Dyche types don't, perhaps can't, climb the managerial ladder?

That is a question that is impossible to answer, certainly by me because, the reasons are infinite. I am however intrigued by your description (Dyche types), perhaps there is a clue there.

Is Kompany a Dyche type? He got the plum job at Bayern having very little to recommend him as a manager. Why was that? I certainly don't know.

If I could ask a question. Why do some managers flop, then have success elsewhere? The current example is Emery at Aston Villa (sacked by Arsenal).

I am a great believer in luck in life shaping the future. Certainly, to be successful, things have to go your way, and I think many matches are won or lost due to this element. For example, a shot through a crowd of players avoids them all, or is deflected, and a goal is scored.

Many matches Everton have won has been because things have gone their way, and this applies to all clubs. Of course, the opposite applies, where things go against you, and a loss is recorded.

What is the quote by Napoleon wanting lucky generals?

But I could not disagree more.

You don't earn millions by being lucky, no matter what your profession.

My opinion is that Dyche displays a level of competence but his tactical processes and the team's style of play probably deter quality players from wanting to come to the club.

At Everton survival in the Premier League would be the Club Objective. One could not say on a tight budget, since there are only cut backs on transfers.Other areas of the Club are not facing cutbacks or restructuring., such is the Club Mismanagement

Dyche has evolved his formula through Championship promotion and Premier League survival mostly in the lower half of the Premier League Table.To progress further he probably hoped that joining a big Club like Everton, that new ownership would come in with money and he would be kept on.With money he could spec up on the players in his squad and his system of play would progress him up the table and into to competition success

But as we know as Evertonians it takes more than money to bring success.One has to have a equally successful Management team running the Club,with probably a few effective gangsters in the mix, who can get away with things.

As for the team we know there are different levels of Management and some are destined through Character and ability not to progress a team, beyond a glass ceiling.

No matter who the Manager, Evertonians know since we have seen so many, the state of the Club is a limiting factor, and Manager do have different levels of competence.

Even players have to access whether a particular team is a good career choice,and there would be doubts whether Everton would fulfil the necessary criteria.

All this is a merry go round we are familiar with.

Dyche will cost us more points than PSR (in the famous 13 game winless streak we lost more than 4 times the PSR points deduction)

Bring in someone like Lee Carsley who won't get the England job but also won't be so arrogant and disrespectful to the fans and the entertainment factor.

We will go down playing Dycheball this season. What a miserable way to be relegated.

So how has this "constructive" criticism gone so far? What positive effect has come from it? Where is the improvement? Why do people think they can alter the mindset of a "can't change, won't change" manager?

Matt's article was a breath of fresh air. He doesn't follow the flock shouting "Baaaah". He doesn't bore by regurgitating the same complaints over and over again. He tries to explain why.

Everyone who watches Everton knows what they are getting from Dyche. They know his strengths and they know his shortcomings.

I find it amazing that so many people seem to believe they are seeing things others don't. Those repeatedly pointing to the blindingly obvious have become more boring than the football they relentlessly complain about. I havent seen a "new" complaint for months

We've been sick for years and we were getting sicker. Dyche is the unpleasant medicine. A short-term means to an end. He does what it says on his tin. How many more posts are we going to see informing us of that?

Surely the whole purpose of a website like T/W is for people to come on and express their opinions, whether we agree or disagree on the opinions being expressed.

You sort of imply that any criticism of Dyche has just become repetitive – could that be that he keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, and that's why the main criticism of him is always repeated?

The purpose of any forum is to give a platform to those who want to express opinion.

If you are happy with people repeatedly telling you what you already know, you will love these threads.

As I said. I liked the OP because I genuinely believe it offered something new.

Gowaaaaaay!

Of course it's become repetitive. Same old moans from the same old moaners.

What IS the point of making the same complaint week in week out?

Yes, TW is a place to come and express opinions but when the same people express the same opinion over and over because Dyche is making the same mistakes over and over it's pointless and boring. And if they can point out Dyche's faults week in week out then others can point out their moaning week in week out.

There's obvious proof of some just wanting to moan all the time.

Check out the number of posters after a win compared to after a defeat.

That seems quite plain to me that some are only interested in moaning.

They are generally those who, when you walked in the pub, you'd say to your mate "Fer fucks sake get through there quick" before he sees us.

And I'm not a happy clapper. I see the faults, the shortcomings, the failures, but harping on about 'em week in and week out? Not for me.

When he was appointed he admitted that if the club wasn't a mess he wouldn't be at the club. I think he is to rigid and we can predict when he will use the bench.
As Brian @76 says he keeps making the same mistakes hence the same criticsm. But as a very good author said 'A leopard cannot change his shorts'

I wish we could have kept hold of Silva but I might as well wish I was 21 again. Moshri pulled the trigger as the natives were very restless.

Dyche is what we have and it wont be attractive but he will keep us up and we will be at BMD still in Premier League # COYB

If you are right, it would certainly answer a lot of my ‘why' questions regarding our form.

Evertonians have been palmed off with cheap material for nigh on 25 years, think Walter Smith, David Moyes and all of those who have followed, up to and including Sean, wouldn't it be nice to wear something of a reasonable quality every now and again?

As for moaners moaning about other moaners moaning about moaning, it's not a bloody workshop for finding original and witty solutions to all things Everton.

Although the site is blessed with one or two very original and witty posters, on the whole it's a site for ordinary fans to express their views on Everton 365 days of the year and it's unlikely any single post or poster will win the Pulitzer prize.

I cant think of another manager who has influenced the rest of a league as much as Guardiola, most teams whether capable or not try to play out from the back. Many say ah but if he didnt have the money would he be any good, my answer is Foden, Palmer, Lewis all from Manchester and greater Manchester that have come through their academy system. They all have an excellent first touch and great awareness, so if he can mould youngsters to turn in to top quality players that should quieten the nonsense about he can only do it because he has the money.

I think its a real shame that we seem not to be able to produce home grown managers any more, I wonder if we will ever see the likes of my favourite Brian Clough, Bob Paisley, Howard Kendall, Jock Stein, Alex Ferguson, George Graham. Bill Shankly, Matt Busby and Harry Catterick. All different with different styles but the common denominator was they were all serial winners.
Not only do we not produce home grown managers, aparently somebody yesterday on the radio said how few English players started the first 2 games of the Premier league. I cant imagine the Italian or Spanish or German leagues having so few home grown nationals in their top leagues.

I don't know how we change that or even if anybody cares anymore about producing home grown players.

As to your main point, perhaps, those clubs that don't have the cash, can't afford to develop players like Manchester City, Manchester United and dare I say it Liverpool do.

Do the staff at those other none elite clubs have the imagination time and resources, to develop players to the level we'd all like to see?

Then again those three clubs I cited above tend to swoop up all the local young talent before the kids are out of their nappies or even out of the mother's womb.

Seriously a very good observation regarding those great past managers. Maybe I'm old but it was also more of a level playing field pre premier league. The likes of Forrest (twice) and Villa winning the European Cup. Coventry, Wimbledon, Luton and Oxford winning silverware in the 80s.

But yes as we all know Everton voted in favour for the Premier League and then didn't move with it or move with the times.

Terrible management, uninspiring players, decrepit stadium, largely ignored by the media, late shirt releases and limited availability, no Corporate income, no decent sponsors, treated as a second class entity within the city it helped create, owned by thieves & bampots, ridiculous badge changes, headlocks, players banned for diving, forced to sell the good to make way for the average, a “stepping stone” for players, either on the way up or on the way down, never during “peak”. Tired old and embarrassing Tannoy songs, an air raid siren as the only forward thinking emblem of a staggering dinosaur of a club somehow transported into the modern world of Moneyball.

Yet here we (all) are.

Sticking two fingers up to “them” with our disc beard sergeant major who somehow manages to rouse the troops to win the odd battle and survive, even though the Generals have gone AWOL from a war they don’t understand.

We have fight, togetherness, bloody mindedness that sees us develop young players, even though we have to sell them, build a third stadium in the city that is three more than the anointed ones, an awareness that lets us see through the marketing bollocks and hollow truth of the “best league in the world” and the money grabbing mess that our sport has become. Despite it all, we have kept this club going and it has kept us going.

We will sign new players and move to a new stadium, I’m all for joining the new superhighway to success but remain thankful that our success is often the simplest of things that other clubs, other fans can never get close too. The history, the community, the camaraderie, the decency (when not at Euston) and overall, the support of whoever is in the blue shirt on the day.

Thelwell, Dyche, Woan and Stone deserve our respect and thanks for doing their best and that best being just enough. We want more but must be careful to not jeopardise what we’ve fought so hard to keep.

you do realise you are moaning about moaners, moaning ab...Nah. forget it.

Not sure I understand your "Never mind the quality feel the width" analogy. We have spent big on our managers. Bigger than 99% of the other clubs around the world.

Silva was offered a kings ransome to leave Watford. Koeman was offered even more to leave Southampton. Sam got a mega bonus to keep us up - even though we were not going down. We could have paid for a stand with what Lampard and his entourage cost us. Two former Champions league managers were hired too. They all earned more at Everton than they had ever earned before - Hardly cheap material.

Maybe the new owner (whoever may be) will do his research and appoint the right manager rather than the most expensive one available.

If Doucoure plays, and is terrible, every week then I think it's reasonable that you're going to get some posts stating that he's played terribly.

There is always the option to scroll on by.

I think as a fan base we have been conned by various people within the corridors of power to accept mediocrity and guess what it worked and is working. That's what my "never mind the quality" line related to.

When we get a outstanding player, which is not that often they are invariably sold.
How can you build a successful team when the above happens on a regular basis.