Out with the new and in with the old!

The main issue right now is staying in the Premier League. I think Moyes will simply have a more demanding attitude, higher standards and a freshness about him that means we will get the handful of wins we need. Our players are certainly better than Dyche seemed to be trying to convince everyone they were.

After that, we’ll need around 10-12 new players. Whilst 1 or 2 (perhaps both goalkeepers as you suggest) will be contract renewals, we’re then looking at something like 2-3 actual transfers, 4 loans and therefore around 4 free transfers. There are an awful lot of players who would be be good enough for a likely mid-table Everton next season, and Moyes is the type to get slightly more out of a certain type of player than other managers.

People used to complain that Moyes was only getting us 5-8th every season and could go no further. From where we are, we’ll take 8th-12th for a couple of seasons whilst things get sorted out. Over that time, if the finances, wage bill and business side improve and somebody gets the academy producing either first team players of Championship sales of £5-10M, the mess of the last three years might finally be sorted.

The guy may not be a tactical genius, but he has demonstrated repeatedly that what he lacked in brains, he certainly made up or in balls. He has stood firm in the face of far worse situations than this.

In the absence of any real evidence I would suggest it is highly likely that he has over played his hand and gave the old managers "back me (financially) or sack me" ultimatum. I think every manager is entitled to play that card. Dyche more than most...but it clearly backfired on him. Anyway its water under now. we have to deal with the here and now.

I wont look at Moyes's stats and marvel at the job he did or us first time around. The reality is all to fresh in my memory. The disgraceful mismanagement of this club and the squandering of hundreds of millions of pounds since his departure does not make the job he did any more acceptable. All those many many wrongs simply cannot make a right.

I believe we will stay up. Always have done, but don't think we will get a single point under Moyes that we would'nt have done under Dyche. They are two coaches cut from the same cloth. While one could complain he operated on a shoe string. The other can claim he could only dream of shoe strings.

And while I accept that one of the teams around us may put together a run to take them away from the drop zone. Both experience and knowledge tells me they wont all do it. We have more points. more games to play and a better goal difference than the others. We are also capable of putting together a run to take us clear. Lets face it. ALL the other clubs down there are in uncharted waters. While we have players with vast experience of the fight to stay in the Premier league.

Despite so many pressing the panic button. It was and still is, most definitely advantage Everton. No amount of hypothetical bollocks can alter that fact.

I would have been far happier to see the money spent on players than to see us make the most like for like swap since the red tory party replaced the blue one on July 4th

Those are interesting links, especially the PSR one, which has us roughly where I thought we were, very little room for this window, and any we had now mostly extinguished by more management pay offs.

If we are looking at the bigger picture, the one big missing link is a CEO, and with the right candidate, debatably our first ever proper one. Something I notice about successful teams is that they all generally have a highly competent CEO, who can put the right team in place and keep the show on the road. The absence of a decent one at Man U, similar to us, in fact, might explain their fall from grace. Unfortunately we seem to be doing this the wrong way around, but then it might be a case of 'events, dear boy, events...'

However, regarding Dyche's sudden departure, there's a slightly different version to Andy Hunter's, published Friday in the Athletic by the exceptionally well-informed Patrick Boyland. Here are some excerpts:

It was a move that blindsided Everton’s new owners The Friedkin Group (TFG), barely a fortnight into their tenure.

Earlier this week, manager Sean Dyche informed the club’s hierarchy that he had taken the team as far as he could. Dyche did not go as far as to formally resign — that would have had financial ramifications with his £5million-a-year ($6.2m) deal due to expire at the end of the season.

TFG’s view was that Dyche’s comments and behaviour meant he did not deserve his full salary for the final six months of his deal, plus bonuses. That was what he and his representatives wanted, but a settlement was eventually reached. Those close to the ownership have been keen to emphasise they took a hardline stance in negotiations in an attempt to protect the club and show that they were not a soft touch.

The short and pointed club statement on Thursday afternoon confirming Dyche’s exit, in which no thanks was offered to the former Burnley manager and his staff, spoke volumes.

Dyche may have helped save Everton last season at a critical juncture for the club, but he did not leave on good terms.

The response in the dressing room to his departure has been mixed. There are plenty for whom a change could potentially be beneficial. According to sources consulted by The Athletic, some players complained about the lack of guidance tactically and in training sessions, craving more detail.

Some attacking players felt they had too much defensive responsibility and were isolated, leading to slumps in form and confidence. Leading the line or playing on the wings were seen as thankless tasks. Wingers became secondary full-backs at times and were exhausted by the time they reached the final third.

Dyche’s man-management received mixed reviews. An incident during a mid-season trip to Portugal in March, in which he was rumoured to have jokingly slapped full-back Nathan Patterson, raised eyebrows — in terms of how events played out and how quickly it was leaked to the media. Dyche went on record to deny those reports.

Even his supporters would acknowledge Everton have regressed in just about every key performance metric this season.

Dyche has often had unwavering faith in his methods but seemed incapable of making the changes necessary to improve matters, particularly in the final third. Everton have failed to score in a league-high 11 games this season, and eight of their last 10 top-flight matches.

Since the start of the 2023-24 campaign, Dyche’s side scored 26 goals from open play, the lowest of any of the Premier League’s ever-presents in that time. The team with the next fewest, West Ham, managed more than twice as many (56).

Attacking patterns were hard to discern, beyond the basic ball up to the main striker. Shape, structure and hard work were often foregrounded to the detriment of other areas, even if Dyche has been right to point to a lack of quality in the final third. Simply, he appeared to have run out of ideas.

There will be relief on his side that it is now all over. But the legacy of his tenure and cost-cutting measures is a side that is fighting for survival and in urgent need of help.

Again, I take some encouragement from the professionalism of TFG -- 48 hours from the Dyche meeting to the announcement of his departure, just 36 more to officially replace him. (Contrast that with Moshiri requiring five weeks to sign Fat Sam after sacking Koeman.)

This has been a thoroughly miserable season, but with the managerial changeover and the return of three injured midfield starters, I remain confident we'll stay up. And that's all that matters right now.

Like Colin #2 I'm not keen on the subtle digs at Dyche my guess is he said his piece Friedkin didn't like it and are trying to make him look like a quitter to save a few quid in compo. If true, not good.

Moyes has just said he needs to work with Thelwell so that solves that question.

By hook or by crook a few decent players are needed as a minimum if they don't arrive not much will change and Moyes will be another sacrificial lamb

Not good? I think it's great.

Mark #3, that's my guess too. TFG uses the CEO model, and I expected them to name one promptly, which they haven't. It may be because they got pipped to the obvious choice, Souloukou, by Forest. And the sudden chaos surrounding Dyche took priority.

I think he showed amazing resilience given the Premier leagues stance with us and the reduction in playing staff but on the other hand he was given some carrots this season with the aquisition of Mangala, Ndiaye and Lindstrom to name but a few and he got his way retaining Young who cost us a lot of points early season but has since been pretty solid.

I think the majority of us could only see one way forward with Dyche remaining and that was relegation, so he had to go.

Now some of us have issues with Moyes coming back as manager but the realists see that he was the best choice in the circumstances and is likely to get a quicker turnaround than any other appointment.

There is much still to do in bringing in coaches and some new players so we may have to be patient but if we get the goodison roar back that will be like a new signing.

By the time the "exceptionally well informed" Boyland published this, we had all already read it. He was simply regurgitating what Paul Joyce had already put out there. Your (regurgitated) story doesnt even stack up.

IF, as you tell us. TFG are a formidable, hard nosed, Take-no-shit bunch of MF's. Why would they give Dyche anything at all ?

I sincerely hope your version of events is not true, because if it is.The only people who have been "faced down" would be TFG. themselves.

Dyche is a simple journeyman footballer whose main quality is the recognition of how far hard graft can take you...And your telling us that the TFG group lawyers only HALF caved in ????.

I'd feel less anxious if you told me they were only "half" held up by the milky bar kid

It may be the UK way of football management but it's certainly not the US way. Ultimatums to US owners nearly always end badly.

Certainly it's clear that TFG had wanted Dyche to stay till the end of his contract but, in discussions with Dyche, they clearly did not like or appreciate whatever Dyche said. Hence the total lack of appreciation for his past performance.

Acrimonious is a term often attached to situations like this and one can see why, it quickly fell apart: "back me or sack me" was seen as a threat and there was ever only one outcome. In your scenario, Dyche overplayed his hand; in others, it was seen as a threat to the owners. It's all about perspective, Dyche will probably not do that again.

As you correctly say, Moyes never had to deal with Moshiri and Kenwright's total mismanagement of the club's finances but he did operate with strict and limited budgets, some would say he did it well, others that he lowered expectations of success and certainly in my opinion, his partnership with Kenwright saw the biggest decline in the standing of the club in generations.

So why have him back? You say there isn't any difference between the two, "cut from the same cloth" you say. I disagree; in the approach to winning most certainly, I have said a number of times that Dyche had set up his Everton team not to lose rather than to win.

Moyes I think is different; he knows winning games is crucial. It's all about approach and getting the balance right. Dyche clearly didn't and allegedly admitted he couldn't do any more with what he had and, as you say, played his card out.

I think Moyes is a better manager, period. I don't like him for various reasons, especially his association with Kenwright and his role in the dismantling of expectations of our club, but as a short-term option, I believe he will do okay. It remains to be seen, though… who knows?

Simon, Mike, good article and comments, interesting to see the different takes on how it played out. I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle but I agree with all of you in that Dyche got the mood music wrong and culturally stuffed up.

"An appalling lack of judgement on his (Dyche's) behalf " - You'll get no argument from me on that, mate.

He (Dyche) has gone from dreaming about the remote chance of leading the side out at the new stadium, to worrying about whether a Championship club will come in for him or not.

You know, Simon, Mike, You and Me, are not a million miles apart. We are all trying to piece together what really happened. Thats not easy in the absence of any real evidence.

Anyway; It's all water under now. I personally don't think Moyes is better equipped for this job, but I will be there at the Villa game willing him to prove me wrong.

BTW Christine; lay off the Irish girl. Conor hasn't even posted on this thread.

I must remind myself to wake up properly before commenting!

The details of that model have not, as far as I'm aware, been finalised but the idea is you will be allowed to spend probably between 70% and 85% of your revenue on the Premier League squad and staff. Given our historically high wage-to-turnover ratio, that would seem quite limiting but with, hopefully, a step change in revenue moving to the new stadium and removal of higher earners, that position should be improving.

As stated, I posted a few brief paragraphs from Boyland's article. It was a massively longer piece (~2,800 words) that included a depth of information that neither Joyce nor Hunter remotely approached. Boyland isn't the first writer out with Everton news, but he always goes the deepest, and nothing is "regurgitated" from anywhere else. The man does quality work that holds up as accurate.

And it's not my story or version of events. It's his. I just shared a few excerpts. Read the whole thing and judge for yourself if you don't mind the paywall:

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6051934/2025/01/10/sean-dyche-everton-exit-friedkin-group/

Besides, you're in a dreamland world free of contract law if you truly believe TFG could have kissed off Dyche with nothing. Dyche had a binding contract that he very carefully did not resign from. TFG had no legal grounds to tell him to leave it all on the table and take a hike. Dyche's lawyers would have sued and won plus bad-faith damages.

As it is, he's reported by all three of the abovementioned writers to be unhappy about the settlement. We will never know if he got half or more or less, but aren't you pleased by his unhappiness?

Now I've never said a word about TFG being hardnosed and take-no-shit, just that they display professionalism (and how long have we gone without that in our boardroom?). We both think they got it wrong with Moyes, but I'd love to be sitting next to you at the Villa game in my old Chang shirt willing him to succeed. And debating with you along the way.

Surely if our £63M loss is wiped from the reporting period, then we have the potential to use some of that and also we have increased gate receipts (£15M), naming rights (£15M) and lower interest charges (£20M). All of that together would surely mean about £50-£100M war chest, wouldn't it?

"Ultimatums to US owners nearly always end badly."

These American owners at least. What reportedly (Gazzetto dello Sport) got De Rossi sacked at Roma was demanding the Friedkins choose between CEO Souloukou and him. They instantly backed Souloukou and she punted him.

Obviously not the same situation with Dyche, but you're right that it almost never pays to slap the boss's desk.

They (TFG) would have wanted to get the leadership sorted and have a manager for the future ready to come in after a well considered process.

Dyche must have known that. There's no way he thought he had leverage for anything but an early exit.

And I believe that's what he went for. Whether because he honestly believed he couldn't do any more and took the decision for the good of the club, or because he feared relegation on his CV and wanted to jump ship to protect his reputation.

It really doesn't matter why he did it. What matters is that results were poor, the football was worse, and he's now gone. They've been denied the chance to make a well considered appointment so they've gone for a fairly safe one instead. I still think they probably view Moyes as potentially only being a short term solution, but you have to pay the going rate and that includes the length of the contract.

Like what I posted on a separate thread: Moyes is a control-freak "DoF Killer" (Google what he did at West Ham). It is time to start paying attention to an eventual power struggle that he will start against Thelwell and his staff (IMHO, very unlikely that he welcomes the chance to work with Thelwell, given the "either my way or the highway" traits we know about him).

Fingers crossed that TFG, knowing the critical importance of the "General Manager (DoF) - Head Coach (Manager) relationship" that every US sports watcher would be aware of (Google what the highly decorated duo of Monchi & Unai Emery have achieved together at Sevilla & Villa), is not going to be swayed eventually by Moyes's hunger for power to unwind all of the hard work laid down by Thelwell (or his successor as DoF).

Otherwise, having my fingers crossed for hosting Premier League matches at the new stadium in August.

When asked about working with Thelwell, he made it pretty clear that he will take his advice, take his support. There's no doubt in Moyes's mind regarding who will work for whom in that relationship.

To be continued... no doubt.

They'll sit down together, identify the positions that need strengthening, and Moyes will give Thelwall a list of players for those positions and tell him "Go do your job and sign them; if you have a problem I'll be at the training pitch doing my job."

Up to now he's playing his hand according to the textbook on American capitalism to which Moshiri and his organ grinder paid tribute.

Hell, he's had yonks to appoint a credible board and yet we know nothing about them beyond a name or two. Seriously?!!

So now we again have Dour Davey to lead us to success, for once, at last, albeit hands tied behind his back still, as they always were under his self-serving supplication to Kenwright.

Wonderful.

No bullshit. Just Glaswegian "to the point" and effective.

Both Boyland and Hunter regurgitated what Joyce had said about the meeting. Almost word for word.

Here's the thing: none of them were at the meeting and none of them can offer a direct quote from anybody who was. Joyce's original report started with "it's understood that" Understood by whom ? How ? Why?

You're certainly right about one thing, Mike. Boyland does really pad out this report, but he wanders away from reporting about the meeting and begins to list a load of things you already knew. Stuff you have read about dozens of time.s Gems like: "Some of the attacking players felt they had too much defensive responsibility. They felt isolated"...That wasn't news being reported.

And what about: "Attacking patterns were hard to discern beyond the basic ball up to the main striker"... No shit, Sherlock!!!

Boyland then goes on to "inform" us about a reported slapping incident between Dyche and Patterson in Portugal… zzzz. He also puts up stats we see every day on these very pages.

Come on, Mike. "Exceptionally well informed"? You know a damn sight more about this club than this fella does.
Boyland isn't talking to you the Evertonian, Mike. He is reporting to a wider audience. One that wasn't already aware of everything he said in this article.

I guess it all comes down to what we want to believe. For me, Dyche's one saving grace has been his courage in the face of adversity and I don't want to believe he quit. I've had a gut full of employers being scapegoated as they leave this building.
In his his press interview yesterday, Davey Moyes told us he got the call on Tuesday. I wonder if that was before the meeting between TFG and Dyche, or after it?

Murky waters…

Christine.

No apologies required. I was just pulling your leg, mate!

Many thanks, and as I intimated in the thread, I do believe that Moyes has been brought in to help with the restructuring of the footballing side of things, both off and on the pitch.

There is no question, whether we retained Dyche's services, or by bringing in Moyes, that we are guaranteed to stay in the Premier League as things currently stand.

As you say, we have the bones of a first XI, but realistically, we need as close to 25 first-team players, who are not U21s (as they don't count) but are also an improvement on what we have got already.

I'm confused (as usual, when it comes to Everton)

You say you dislike the veiled slurs and innuendo regards Dyche; yet, in the main, other than the reporting of the incident by Andy Hunter, I was generally supportive of the work Dyche did here. I especially applaud him for keeping us up relatively comfortably last season, and in truth I wouldn't have been too concerned if he and TFG carried on working together.

I assume that you missed a few comments by myself that I'll repost here, out of context;

"the events of last Thursday, 9 January, and the FA Cup tie with Peterborough seem to have been a culmination of brinkmanship by Dyche. I personally believe this was orchestrated by him in order to be relieved of his duties"

So not stating that as fact, but as an outsider looking in.

"However, I don't think it was cowardice: I think he genuinely had run out of ideas. Though ifhis idea was to play the 3-4-3, or more like a 3-4-2-1 against Peterborough, he showed that at least he could be was more adaptable and open to change"

So, I am saying it was not cowardice, or that he had bottled it, more that he had run out of ideas, even though I even defended that position, by discussing who picked the formation?

You'll have to excuse me as I'd like to repost the whole of the excerpt of Andy Hunter's article to make points there;

""
The stable platform that TFG seeks to build upon is in no small part thanks to the manager it has just sacked.
I would have to agree with that, we aren't in the bottom three, we're a point clear with a slightly better GD, and we have a game in hand. Hardly disastrous at this stage of the season, but hardly ideal either.

But that is not to say it was wrong to do so, or that all of the above praise puts Dyche beyond reproach. In many ways he gave the new owners no alternative.

A considerable amount of nonsense has been said and written about the decision to sack Dyche hours before Thursday’s FA Cup tie against Peterborough. The former Everton winger Andros Townsend’s claim that it represents “major, major red flags long-term for this new ownership group” is among that.
I agree, a lot of nonsense has been written about the situation.

The manager of a team one point above the relegation zone with half a season played, when asked what support he needed in January to improve the situation, intimated to his new employers that he had taken the team as far as he could.
Now this is the kicker to me. Allegedly, TFG and Dyche had a meeting on Sunday, and again on Monday. Allegedly, it was during these two meetings that Dyche didn't make any ultimatums as has been widely reported, but rather, even with the offer of 'what support do you need', he could only offer, "I think/feel, that I've taken the team as far as I can."
Now put yourself in TFG's shoes, they've just lost out on their probable first choice CEO (Lina Souloukou, who decided to go back and work for her former boss at Forest who are doing a hell of a lot better than us!) and now the manager, whom they were willing to invest in and support, 'allegedly' just resigns his position, but doesn't actually resign..?

Hence the phone calls Moyes gets on the Monday, Tuesday as being first sounded out. n.b. Who instigated that call TFG, Retexo, or Thelwell?

Anyhow, the next couple of days is Dyche, his agent and TFG thrashing out the severance package, before it was announced on Thursday.

Results and performances back that up. But results and performances did not cost Dyche his job, as bad as they were.
This is highly important, because as I said above, TFG were still willing to back Dyche.

TFG felt his attitude had changed after losses to Nottingham Forest and Bournemouth extended Everton’s dismal run to one win in 11 league games. It was, it felt, a resigned attitude tantamount to resigning, an argument Dyche rejected.
Now unless there is a bonafide witness in the TFG camp, this is all supposition, mind you, four fifths (or more) of what I have written is supposition and guesswork.

Then just for clarity, here are my thoughts on Dyche, which are embedded in the article;

[I have to personally thank Dyche for keeping us up for two seasons, though whether he deserves all the credit or not is debateable, but bygones and thank you. He certainly does not deserve the amount of vitriol that has been aimed at him.]

Hence my confusion, I have in the main supported Dyche, would have been willing to put up with him a little longer, or to season's end, if he got us safe, and merely opined on the reportage about the situation at the club between TFG and Dyche.

I always thought a forum was a place to discuss, and share ideas and opinions?

Feel free to shoot the messenger, a'la Mike G and myself. Opinions differ, but the past is the past, and without fully corroborated facts, everything is framed by peoples biases either conscious or unconscious.

I genuinely appreciate the feedback though.

Good wishes guys. 👍💙

After rereading your post, I forgot to mention 'my hopes' for Moyes as per where we used to finish with him. I tried to edit my initial reply, but...

This season = Has to be nothing but survival in the PL, anything else is gravy. Every position above 16th means you can knock circa £3mn off the funds used to get Moyes in.

Next season (assumption, we stay up) = Start to instil better working practises at the club, and get the players fitter, but not breaking them at the same time. We also have to start the squad rebuild, with pragmatic, sensible choices, and careful use of the purse strings.

n.b. There will also be the huge issue of moving to BMD, sorry, Everton Stadium 💙(thanks Mosh, I think?)

So, all the new practices and contractors, service providers will have to fully up to speed. With the added benefit, of an immediate uplift in gate receipts, and a probable uplift in dry and wet hospitality sales for the club too. Not to mention other commercial opportunities which become available at the Everton Stadium.

Which will (or should) help with increasing revenue, which in turn will help with the remodelled PSRs.

So hopefully, we'll get stability on the pitch and finish around 10th-13th (simply due to squad size and recruitment)

If Moyes goes into his last season = With luck, and no little foresight, revenues, commercialisation of the club, and increased sponsorship quite simply start to ramp up, and recruitment continues apace, so that we could hopefully start looking at somewhere 6th/7th to 10th'ish...

I think that it will take 3-4 years before the benefits of the Everton Stadium really start to accelerate, and it will probably take that time (with the assumption we recruit sensibly in the meantime) before we start getting a squad capable of competing with (and beating) the Villains, Newcastles, Spurs, the 3Bs (Bourn, Brent, Bri) et al.

Also, I think that after Moyes' 2.5 years, he will either be given a backroom role, or he may well be retained, depending what his performances have been like over the period of his tenure-ship?

Hopefully, he will have helped draw the blueprints, and laid the foundations for the Blue Phoenix to rise. Then TFG will be in a position to appoint a younger, more dynamic (progressive?) coach, but one that will not unravel all the ground work done by Moyes and his team.

From the UConL to the UEL, to the UChL...

At which point we should be able to start beating the RS (or at least have no fear!) and start challenging for the title!

It is just going to take a little time, plenty of planning and a proper footballing strategy!

The key point is "allegedly" Dyche said he'd taken the team as far as he could posing the question does that really sound like something he would say? Not for me

Maybe he DID say the words but in a context not given.

Perhaps TFG simply asked what more could he do with this group and that was the answer. But that is very different to throwing the towel in as per the inference

We'll never know; a financial deal will be struck to keep Dyche quiet he will get another job and on it will go. But if I had to put my house on it I'd say Dyche didn't jack it as hinted at.

Sunday, the 'chats' start, Monday it is clear that neither party are happy with the situation.

Monday, Tuesday Moyes is sounded out, meanwhile negotiations start taking place between TFG and Dyche.

WednesdayThursday terms with Dyche are settled, and Dyche leaves the club Thursday.

Friday, formal offer given to Moyes, Saturday, Moyes appointed!

Considering what we had to endure with the Moshiri years, that is 'light-speed' and very efficient, and hopefully effective.

Good wishes Mike; how are you and the family doing? Is the NY working out thus far?

You posit some excellent points, and I'll concede to them, as I don't know what actually happened, I merely formed an opinion based on reportage.

I don't think Dyche would have quit, but, I do think he felt the seismic shift in support from last season to this, from the fan-base, plus the constant injury list in an already thread-bare squad.

I could envisage him saying that he couldn't do more, without more... Yet, apparently, he was being offered support till the end..?

As you say, he'll probably have to have signed an NDA, and no-one will ever know what truly transpired other than the relevant parties.

Cheers Barry

Quality response, big thumbs up, Simon

It was obvious that him getting fired meant he got paid the same anyway, he could relax and put his feet up, with no fear of another relegation on his CV.

We have all read a thousand comments on Moyes and to summarise; he's not a universally popular choice but it's an understandable, pragmatic appointment that's suited to our current circumstances.

Seems like our only bargaining chip in the market is Branthwaite but even that seems devalued since the start of the season. I heard someone asking for him to be traded for Garnacho and Maguire! Is using Branthwaite our only way of seriously changing the squad in this window?

I agree about PSR, but as John [12] and Tony [14] intimate, those PSR figures could be wrong. As I don't know currently, but I will look at them later, I will bow to the known expertise of Swiss Ramble who has been doing club finances longer than Paul Quinn has for Everton.

One thing that Tony raised, is increased income, that will count in our accounts for the June 30th return date. So for example, we get an initial Stadium sponsorship deal for £15-20mn for this season, that means we get an extra £15-20mn to fritter away this window... Which means we could spend, IF we know that there are commercial and or sponsorship deals waiting to be signed off.

One good bit of news, is that EFC haven't breached PSR rules for the 31st December return as information provided by the PL.

Premier League PSR News

I might have it wrong, as on an 'untrustworthy' site (or three) there is talk of bringing in Richardo Rios for £83mn, but bear in mind, these sites are the usual RS Gobshite sites, so a huge pinch of salt is required.

I don't think we'll see any more than on incoming due to our current financial position.

But, to quote MK, "We'll have to wait and see."

Not for one single minute did I feel either you or Mike were trying to besmirch Sean Dyche's name. If there is any damage that was done to his reputation, it was done last Thursday with the initial Joyce report.

I felt Joyce's actions were disgusting. He knew nothing about the meetings. He knew nothing about the agreement with Davey Moyes and he certainly didnt know Dyche was going to be sacked on Thursday.

He was not in the know and therefore not in a position to tell us what went on in a meeting which had taken place 5 days earlier... Put simply. He reported what he had imagined had transpired.

Hunter and Boyland didn't see Thursday's announcement coming either, nor did they have a clue about the calls to Davey Moyes.

If you feel I was shooting the messenger, I can assure you I wasn't, but Mike and yourself had put up posts supporting the reports of these journos. Who else could I direct my responses to?

I'm always deeply suspicious of journos, especially those who write about Everton. I learn more about this club on County Road than I do from these people.

I hope you have read the article Mike put up. Not because I think you will learn anything from Boyland, but I'd be interested to know if you can spot anything at all in that article that you hadn't already heard.

These living stealers glean their information from Evertonians and then have the temerity to try to sell it back to them at a later date.

"Seam Dyche is understood to have" .... Sigh

You call it supposition, Simon; I call it invention.

Dyche looked burnt out to me, he'd put everything into the last couple of seasons and it looked like it had ground him down and he was out of ideas. I thank him for his efforts and for what he did here.

Andy Hunter is a blue and always has been, as well as being a good guy – he'll know as much as any Evertonian.

Colin, I may not be as well-informed, but I truly did not know until the Boyland article that:

1. Multiple attacking players were unhappy with their defensive roles. I thought Ndiaye and McNeil and Harrison had fully bought in. They certainly played hard enough on the back end.

2. No hint had leaked out to Baines, Coleman and the rest of the players re Dyche's sacking until the rest of the world found out.

3. Everton contacted Potter about his interest.

4. Branthwaite was fully healthy enough to return long before he did. I thought Dyche was bullshitting about Keane to take the intense spotlight off Jarrad's recovery.

5. That the rumoured Dyche encounter with Patterson had been leaked from within.

Boyland was also I believe the only one of the three writers to make the then-predictive comparison mentioned by one TW poster of Moyes to Ranieri at Roma: "an old favourite who has been brought in to stabilise and improve the atmosphere in the stadium." I for one had overlooked that indicator completely, which is why I was so surprised they hired Moyes.

So as someone outside the UK media orbit, I found the Boyland article quite informative. Sorry, you knew all that stuff. I didn't.

“Ultimately, I think the manager, maybe called ‘the head coach’ now, are the ones who are getting fired for it so if I’m going to get fired, I’m going to get fired because it’s players I sign or I choose to sign.

...“If somebody turns around and says: ‘By the way, I’m signing the players for you,’ I can do that.

“But don’t be putting my name to everything then, everyone you bring in, and not taking responsibility..."

I think that half a dozen potential departees might be offered 1 year extensions with Gueye as my first pick.

All the Loanees will (hopefully?) have an incentive to Up their game...if they indeed have it in them to do so and are given tasks/positions where they can best shine.

Some of course, might be the wrong shaped 4 sided polygon for Moyes to hammer into his version of a round hole...Lindstrom??

Anybody who we thought was only in the 11 because Dyche admired his work rate, versatility and effort...Doucoure, Harrison and Young???...will not necessarily find those qualities bringing them poor marks from Moyes.

Still, the Immediate task is to fire up the Bear Pit, screw down the safety valve, then feed Villa and Spurs into it's maw - chewing them both up into 6 of those little 'points' the Toffee Lady on the front of the Footy Echo used to hold up.

I know being based over there you may not have seen or heard Leighton Baines tell a radio Merseyside and BBC TV audience that he and Seamus had only only found out about the sacking when they turned up or the Peterborough game.

And you had already heard the accusation that Branthwaite was fit and Dyche was choosing not to play him. Mike, there was murder about it on these very pages few months ago. That time it was Micheal Ball picking up talk from Evertonians then selling it back to them... And It wasn’t justy the "people on the streets" or the bookies who were expecting Moyes back. The dogs were barking it too. Although many hoped it wasn't true. As for the slapping incident....

We none of us know everything and we can all learn from each other. I've certainly learned stuff from both you and Simon. I look at how you guys post and how you construct your arguments - Not to mention your obvious respect for sports reporters. So I've got to ask. Are either or both of you, Journo's yourselves ?

That's not a trick question or an attempted points scorer. I promise... Just genuine interest.

ToffeeWeb, like every other fan website speculates of news or comments reported, it is the lifeblood of site. It reports news or speculation in the media too, by people with greater access than any of us will ever have.

So, asking for truth in reports to reinforce your view is demeaning because it doesn't exist outside a court of law, who, in many cases, decide on truth in adopting the principle of the balance of probability. It isn't perfect, but it's about as good as it gets.

We aren't in a court, this site feeds on speculation, evaluation and analysis and eventually on the balance of probability.

Now some good journalists, posters or commentators can review known facts really well, they see patterns and join dots, some better than others.

But in the end, the case for, or against of ToffeeWeb, is and will always remain in the main, just opinion. We should treat it all thus but do not dismiss speculation as mere ill informed comment, much speculation is well founded when the truth, or the facts, eventually come out.

Sorry to take so long to reply, I had a little accident last night involving a pony, a hoof (not shoed fortunately!) and my face! I'm now one less tooth than I was yesterday! 🥴🤕

Anyhow, I agree that Dyche did start to look and sound 'beaten'(..?) From his more recent sound-bites and behaviour on the touchline, it was apparent he was getting frustrated, and maybe a little despondent.

It was also more noticeable once the take-over had been completed, and he and Thelwell had had their 'chats' with the new ownership.
As you say, the increased defensiveness and reapportioning blame, are, or were the characteristics of that.

Again, I agree he showed amazing resilience, despite the problems within and without the club. For that you can do nothing but salute and thank him for his efforts.

Regards the players, I cannot for the Life of me see Thelwell wanting to retain Jack Harrison (who I rate on the left, and he had three or four superb moments against the Posh), nor extend Young's contract, but I feel that would be due to expediency and avoiding any real financial out-lay.

The loans, and the O'Brien, Ndiaye and Iroegbunam signings were definitely Thelwell's picks. Yet, why Dyche didn't at least get them up to speed in the pre-season and try them, rather than alienate them on the bench is a mystery which will probably never be answered (Yes, I know Timmy played a lot in the PS, and the first few games, but I feel he took the fall for the Bournemouth 2-3 reverse!)

I'm not so sure we would have gone down with Dyche, but the way the margins we're falling for him, and issues with connecting with the players, it was looking more and more likely, but who knows? Multi-universe time to answer that one...

Like I said at the top, I wasn't initially inspired by Moyes appointment. Yet, the more I think about it, even till now (16:27, 15/01) I genuinely feel this appointment will be seen as being important moment (positively) for the club and new ownership.

"There is much still to do in bringing in coaches and some new players so we may have to be patient but if we get the goodison roar back that will be like a new signing."

I completely agree with this, and hope he doesn't settle for someone he knows as the set-piece coach, and actively looks to hire a top-quality coach for the long-term. (As with all future appointments!)

Thanks Jay, and good luck at the match tonight mon ami.

What a great post! Well articulated, and obviously something near to your heart.

Without trying to cause 'rifts', I had a very similar issue when I frequented Grand Old Team.

Someone made a statement, I disagreed, and stated that the statement was wrong; then the original poster said "Prove it! Show me TEN instances where XXXX had got it wrong."

I said I had no 'burden of proof' and instead, I said if you're so sure of yourself, please could you go and find every single announcement by said ITK, and prove that he is 100% correct every time (as stated)!

To which I got dog's abuse, reported to the mods, and several other posters jumped on my back too!

Yet, if I had been asked to provide evidence contrary to the initial poster's proclamation, then why couldn't I reverse the 'burden', and ask him to back it up?

As you say, opinions have bias, and are heavily coloured by personal subjectivity. Yet, on sites like these, any form of 'deviation' from what you could describe as the 'accepted narrative' or 'accepted narratives' (usually diametrically opposed, rather than nuanced) creates tension, argument and in some cases outright 'personal insults'.

Which is something that I have faced on here and on other sites personally, purely for having the temerity to post a 'non-aligned' or 'contrary' opinion to the narrative.

So thank you again Christine.

As for your last two paragraphs;

"Now some good journalists, posters or commentators can review known facts really well, they see patterns and join dots, some better than others."

Yep, I'm sorry, I will try harder! 😉🤣💙

"But in the end, the case for, or against of ToffeeWeb, is and will always remain in the main, just opinion. We should treat it all thus but do not dismiss speculation as mere ill-informed comment, much speculation is well founded when the truth, or the facts, eventually come out."

This should be 'stickied' to the site! It would be rather dull if we weren't allowed to cogitate, speculate and opine!

Good wishes as always 👍💙

There is a very big difference between asking for the slightest shred of evidence and demanding Proof.

You were challenged when you posted on another current thread - "Lets be clear here. Dyche bottled it". You based that slur entirely on a tweet from Joyce. Hunter and Boyland run with Joyce's tweet the following day.

OK. if its the balance of probabilities we are talking about. Lets run with the balance of probabilities

1) Dyche held talks with TFG on Sunday. These three "extremely well informed" reporters knew nothing about it.

2) TFG called Moyes on Tuesday. Again none of them knew anything about it.

3) All three of them were blind-sided for the third time in as many days when it was announced that Dyche had been sacked.

The club was going through an inner turmoil - Even by our standards. Yet these three "extremely well informed reporters" didnt have a scooby.

Four days after meeting he didnt know had taken place. Joyce decided to "report" on it. Was he giving us anything to suggest he had talked to anybody involved in the meeting ? or was this a face saving exercise ?...This wasnt an informed report based on the balance of probabilities. it was a desperate attempt by somebody who realised he had been caught sleeping on the job trying to pretend he knew something "It's understood" ????

Still. a quick glance through the threads currently running on TW will demonstrate that the slur on Dyche's character has now become fact. Yet another employee of this club leaves under a cloud of suspicion.

Fair play to you guys for sticking together on this, but lets be very very clear. At no point were any of you challenged to "prove it". Despite your protest. Nobody has asked you for incontrovertible evidence... but if you are going to make these claims. You really should be prepared for people to challenge you to demonstrate this was anything more than lazy wash house gossip from a group of Journos who have clearly been caught with their kecks down.

I'm off the match. Lets hope we are ALL celebrating afterwards and we can put this clubs latest unsavoury episode behind us

My sincere and genuine apologies for not replying before now. I've not had much time, and was sticking to commenting on the more recently posted, however I felt that I need to reply to your comments.

I've C&Pd your [35] comment so I don't miss anything (nb I won't be interloping in yours and Mike's convos)

"Not for one single minute did I feel either you or Mike were trying to besmirch Sean Dyche's name. If there is any damage that was done to his reputation, it was done last Thursday with the initial Joyce report."

Thanks Colin, I misread the room then. It came across that I had denigrated Dyche in some way? Sorry for misreading it.

I felt Joyce's actions were disgusting. He knew nothing about the meetings. He knew nothing about the agreement with Davey Moyes and he certainly didnt know Dyche was going to be sacked on Thursday.

Unfortunately, that is how journalism, of the clickbait variety works nowadays. n.b. In saying that, with my 'inventions', or what I called suppositions, I relied on what I thought was a more 'respected' source than Paul Joyce, especially as it was published in a National Newspaper, and as such, the author potentially leaves himself open to libel and defamation laws? Hence why I went to Andy Hunter's piece rather than anyone else.

He was not in the know and therefore not in a position to tell us what went on in a meeting which had taken place 5 days earlier... Put simply. He reported what he had imagined had transpired.

I don't think anybody knew, other than who was in that room, and any other third party called in to resolve any associated outcome.

Hunter and Boyland didn't see Thursday's announcement coming either, nor did they have a clue about the calls to Davey Moyes.

I have read in several places that there was 'stories circulating' on the Thursday morning, that something was afoot. However, I'll cede that maybe that has been reported because nobody really knew what the heck was happening? I don't think anybody on here saw it, until the Paul Joyce story broke.

If you feel I was shooting the messenger, I can assure you I wasn't, but Mike and yourself had put up posts supporting the reports of these journos. Who else could I direct my responses to?

Fair does Colin, and maybe I was just a little over-sensitive due to having done the legwork in putting it all together? Plus I probably read it when I was over-tired too. Bygones 👍💙offers handshake

I'm always deeply suspicious of journos, especially those who write about Everton. I learn more about this club on County Road than I do from these people.

That should be a given to us all, unfortunately (again) when you don't know; one way of trying to get to 'the story' is broad reading and try to connect the dots.

I hope you have read the article Mike put up. Not because I think you will learn anything from Boyland, but I'd be interested to know if you can spot anything at all in that article that you hadn't already heard.

No, I didn't read Boyland's piece but I heard him on a couple of podcasts regarding Dyche's demise, and he didn't really offer anymore than Joyce or Hunter did. I used to be subscribed to The Athletic before the NYT bought it, and stopped the ability to read free articles. I've binned it ever since, especially with regards the ownership of the NYT, and who they support domestically and globally. Pretty much I don't have anything to do with Murdoch, other than the Daily Mail printed puzzle pages...

These living stealers glean their information from Evertonians and then have the temerity to try to sell it back to them at a later date.

I agree, I read nothing behind paywalls now, considering the amount of times I've been 'burnt' paying for a subscription only to read less than what I've already found out for free!

"Seam Dyche is understood to have" Sigh

Yep, pretty nailed on first class reporting that!

You call it supposition, Simon; I call it invention.

That's opinions for you 😉

Good wishes Colin, and please keep commenting. There's nothing like disagreement to fuel genuine critical thinking, unless you're more into argument and contradiction I suppose? 🤔

👍💙

Last two paras, as that is really all that applies to me;

We none of us know everything and we can all learn from each other. I've certainly learned stuff from both you and Simon. I look at how you guys post and how you construct your arguments - Not to mention your obvious respect for sports reporters. So I've got to ask. Are either or both of you, Journo's yourselves ?

Thanks for saying you've learnt stuff Colin, that's what I mainly try an do when I post. I.e. inform as accurately as I can. Regards sports journos, I generally don't respect them, as I feel that they usually have their own agendas. This is common place when you watch a game of whatever and the journalist reporting it may well have been in a bar 20 miles away, in that what he writes is utter rubbish (when compared to your own opinion) However, certain stories, where you cannot have inside knowledge, can help you form a framework for self-invention, or join the dots...

As for being a journo or having formal training in that area. NosirreeBobDixie! Not me. IT and Fitness were/are my two professions.

That's not a trick question or an attempted points scorer. I promise... Just genuine interest.

No worries Colin, thanks for asking I think..? hehe

Would you mind if I ask what your background is, as you come across as a realist and very grounded? No insult inferred, or intended. 👍💙

PS I just read your later post Colin.

I think that we are all on the same side, just looking at the same scene from differing angles. Much like that brilliant Guardian advert with the punk running at the City worker, you'know bowler hat, briefcase and brolley, and it turned out that the punk was running to knock the City type out of the way of falling scaffolding!

Points of view

That's Andy Hunter for you! Hehe

Could I ask how your match going experience was last night Colin? I'd appreciate some thoughtful feedback form you?

Who really knows, but Sean Dyche, shy of 2 years in charge, had gone as far as he could.

The survival of Everton in the Premier League is essential and so hopefully a new era for Everton, new ownership, and a new manager will see the tide turn, albeit slowly.

Results went well last night, hopefully a great chance on Sunday to beat Spurs. UTFTs!

Sports journo was my first career. It was a long time ago, and the field has since been deeply sullied by the 24 hour rumor-mongers and opinion-spinners and click bait vendors, but there are still plenty of true journalists out there, and I have great respect for the work they do on a daily basis. I still count several as friends, including one on Merseyside whose name you would recognize.

I was a really good journalist, and I know how to read the work of journalists and recognize those who have put the work in to getting it right and those who haven't. I do not have much respect for Paul Joyce. I do for Andy Hunter. And for the New York Times.

I do not know Boyland, but I have worked alongside reporters from his paper and I know the standards they must meet. And I am confident in promising you that Boyland did not steal one word from Joyce. He would have confirmed his account with other sources who had knowledge of the events. And given the size of Mr Friedkin's organization, the Times will have had those sources available to them.

And that's why I believe his account.

After the Bournemouth defeat, he seemed relaxed and philosophical about the situation. He had run out of ideas, which does happen. He is a pragmatist and not noted as a great tactician.

He did so well during the points deductions scraping results in tight games. The difference this season was that those close games went against us.

He decided that, after trying to play more football (and losing), our best bet was to tighten-up and play direct on the break and, in fairness, we ground out creditable draws against better sides.

The limitations of the squad and the impact of losing McNeil finally put paid to our effectiveness. He has been thinking about his reputation for a long time and did not want relegation on his CV.

Let's face it, we all knew that his tenure would end in the summer and he wasn't sexy enough to lead us to the promised land at Bramley-Moore Dock.

He was frazzled. Players need fresh ideas and the best coaches bring in new staff or specialists from time to time. Hopefully Moyes will give them some fresh ideas and we know that they have the mettle for a fight.

We must not lose to Spurs.

I have long since formed the opinion that there is a small faceless group of people (maybe just one person) who, whilst not being part of the hierarchy, Still drives the narrative regarding departures from this club in the mistaken belief that the club should be protected no matter what the cost. A bit like those administrators at the RC and CEO churches.

I've always known somebody who either worked for played or this club. Not on a come-and-have-Sunday-dinner basis, but I have known them well enough to sometimes hear things before I could read about them.

I'm not going to try to portray myself as some sort of Angel Gabriel who's honesty is above reproach - I've bought more things of the back of a wagon than most people have bought on Amazon. I don't spend my time seeking truth and justice either.. But when it comes to my club I have simply got know the truth. Its almost obsessional.

This obsession developed a long time ago. I actually knew a guy who would often tell our little group tales from the dressing room.

Without going into too much detail. I was privy to the circumstances under which a player suddenly left the club. The guy was blue to the core, but to all intents and purposes, he was forced out. Unfortunately he was to be portrayed as some sort of rat deserting the sinking ship. He was reviled by many. My heart would break when I would hear the chants about him.

Down the years. I have witnessed several (and I mean several) who have been portrayed as the baddies after being forced out of this club. The most notable example was when Goodison rained down its hatred on a teenager who had committed the heinous act of deserting us for one of our most hated rivals. I had already done enough digging to know he had been wrapped up in a bow and delivered. First class... Again. I could have wept.

The first time I saw the accusation that Dyche had effectively quit, was when I read Christines post. I could feel the hackles rising, but I wasnt born yesterday and she is nobody's fool. So I knew/know there was every chance of her post being bang on the money...But for the reasons I have given here. I sincerly hope that she isn't. For me It's not even about Sean Dyche.

I don't mean to suggest that I loved him the best.

I don't keep track of each fallen robin

I remember him well from the Portuguese hotel.

That's all. I wont even think of him that often

"I was a really good journalist."

I knew it.