In Pursuit of the Dream

Interesting topic, does the prem know what the fans really want or do fans know better? No contest, no brainer...
The pep game Can be sublime at times but sterile at others, the second half v Arsenal was actually a good example of how football could become, though if Everton had managed such a disciplined defensive rearguard as Arsenal, I would have been proud, though disappointed to lose at the death.
Roy Keane, who I don't like much, was commenting on Haaland showing an edge, an attitude, but for throwing the ball at a
the back of a players head, not for his physical style of play, which is something fans will watch and enjoy I think.
So you are right Christine, the game needs several ingredients, sublime skills should be in the mix, but so should disciplined defending with robust challenges, you used the word combat, I like that in the context of sport, not career ending tackles that typified Keane, but competitive sport.
The elite game is too sterile, but so long as these teams remain a minority then the rest can play entertaining footy for the fans, may it ever be so...

I think a lot of accepted football these days is a generational thing.
At the end of the day most supporters just want to see their team winning regardless of how they achieve it.

10-15 years ago Man City supporters would have gone mad if their team played like they do today. Nowadays even if City are losing with a few minutes to go they don't bother as they know they'll get, and finish, another chance or two. Like Christine I personally couldn't stand us playing as they do.

Unfortunately football hierarchy, home and abroad, have become money obsessed, to the detriment of the game. They have introduced nonsense like VAR which takes away the spontaneity and immediate excitement. The game has become sterile.

We played great combative football in the past. The 63 team, my favourite typified this, and to a lesser extent the 80's team.

TV and money has taken over the sport. Fan's views, I'm afraid, don't count

There was a Southampton fan on the radio the other day who hopes they go down again as he enjoyed the championship so much better.
I’ve heard the same from Burnley fans. I know it’s still about winning games but given the top six monopoly in the PL these days what actually is the point of the other 14?
Personally I just hope we beat the shite at least once a season as there’s really nothing else feasible. I think the same applies to Newcastle btw. They’re minted now but they will be kept out of the party by the PL & CL.
I hope we don’t go down - that stadium deserves top class football, but I can understand those fans’ views.

How to win football matches has evolved over the years, all kinds of formations and tactics have been used, and whilst the Man City way has been dominant in the last few years, it won't last forever.

Take Spain's triumph in the Euro's for example, they are still technically gifted but are quicker to get the ball forward and more direct than their predecessors.

I watch quite a lot of the German league, and whilst it has the same issues as England, regarding who is likely to win the title, it's a far more enjoyable experience to watch for the neutral fan.

However, the English FA would argue that Pep's style has helped improve the technical ability of the English players and aided their ability to reach the latter stages of recent competitions, whilst the German national team has not repeated the successes it enjoyed in their glorious past.

If a club side or a national side has the best players available to it, then regardless of the style employed, they will likely be the ones picking up the trophies.

As for the argument that the various authorities are aiding and abetting the moneyed elite, by making it a less combative sport, that's because the owners are protecting their assets i.e. the players, a lot more than they used to and those huge clubs have massive influence on how the game is administered.

One of my first Everton heroes was the fullback, Alex Parker. He could slide tackle in the normal way and also slide in and get his foot beyond the ball and emerge with the ball. I was an aspiring full back and tried desperately to master this art. Parker's opposing wingers often went on the deck, or even onto the cinder which was beside so many pitches in those days. Man and ball we called it. He to my blue-biased mind wasn't dirty in the manner of Bolton's infamous Hartle and Banks.

Then in the fifties and sixties we had an offence which no longer exists, it was called obstruction and the penalty for this offence was an indirect free kick, even in the penalty area. Now blocking or strong defending is not seen as an offence, Arteta's Arsenal are masters of this art and he in turn copied his mentor Guardiola.

However, blocking and holding are now allowed and encouraged by coaches and managers to the frustration of older spectators.

I totally agree with Ms Foster that watching Man City put together fifty plus sideways passes (Ederson probably makes at least 10% of them) is boring and takes the vitality and excitement out of the game. I read the obituary of the much-maligned(wrongly) Charles Hughes this morning. He was right, goals happen in the opponent's penalty area. Skilful teams can pass long and have a player who can hold on to the ball till support arrives, or even heaven forbid, when you have two strikers. Young and Vernon, Gray and Sharp, Latchford and Pearson or for those of us who are really old, Hickson and Parker.

Football today is infinitely more skilful, players'control and fitness leave players from the past way away, but surprisingly the game is less interesting, less exciting. The loss of the old offence of obstruction is one factor as is the fotball style of playing with 75% possession and tiki taka football.

When I get to my blue heaven Young and Vernon will be playing, Johnny Morrissey will be slinging in crosses and Alex Parker will be making his tackles.

Christine,

Great to see you post. Have you booked to get down to Goodison and maybe an extended visit to catch the first game in the new Everton Stadium at Bramley-Moore Dock?

In terms of Manchester City, we have had Martinez, whose teams statistically dominated possession. But outside of that first season, there was no end product.

With Pep's Man City, they are patient and retain the ball. But when they do go forward, it is with intent and purpose.

In terms of full-backs, it will be generational. If I spoke to my father and my uncles, they would say Ray Wilson.

For me, Gary Stevens with his bullet-like shots and Leighton Baines. Pat Van Den Hauwe was an iconic figure, but not quite at their level.

I liked Tony Hibbert, despite a lot of the stick he took. But he became a cult figure and gave everything for Everton. A pitch invasion when he finally scored!!

I like Mykolenko.

Christine, keep those dreams coming. Sometime soon, it is going to happen. And when it does, I don't know about lifting the roof. I think we'll detach it!!

I think as John (2) says it is a generational thing with many fans and I'm in agreement with Rick (5) and most of his points of view.

I'm not against Man City and their style of play but it certainly can get very boring. I was willing them to get the equaliser v Arsenal on Sunday because the way Arsenal defended, stopped and started the game with their gamesmanship stank.

And they do it most games not just when they are down to 10 men, that's definitely not the way to play.

I think goals and plenty of them excites fans especially if their team are scoring them and they will focus on that even if the rest of the game is not very good.

Attack used to be the best form of defence; not so sure now the way the game is played with a lot of teams using counter-attacking methods meaning they defend for long periods of the game.

Interesting stuff, Christine.

We grew up on pass and move as kids. Peps team has simply taken that way of playing to its very extreme.

We've seen some great styles down the years. Especially from international teams. The German machines. The Brazilian individual brilliance. The Dutch total football. The French Flare.

The Spanish decided long ago that the opposition cannot hurt you if you don't let them have the ball. Sir Alex Ferguson once compared playing against the Barca team which included Busquets, Chavi and Inesta to being "put on the waltzers". At times it was impossible to get the ball off them. Being Spanish, Pep has embraced the "possession is 9/10ths of the law" philosophy throughout his career.

I was beginning to think the City spell could not be broken. If Pep needed to replace someone. He was in a position to carefully select the type of players he wanted to slot seamlessly into his "way"... That was until yesterday's news.

Rodri may not appear a "hard man" in the time-honoured way we have come to recognise them, but he eats people like that for breakfast – good luck replacing him, Pep.

Man City will not enjoy anything like the possession they enjoy now, not without his turnovers. That may be a good thing.

While no team depends on one man, an injury to the wrong one can quite easily turn total dominance into something entirely different.

I agree with the main point of the article, but I suspect we are about to see a changing of the guard anyway.

Your article is very timely, Christine, both with reference to the controversy that surrounded the recent draw with Arsenal, as well as the injury to Rodri, which Dave (#8) has referenced.

For the record, I just don't like watching City. They have stockpiled a fantastic squad of players, but in the process, they have also ruined the equilibrium of English football, hoovering up all of the young talent, because… well… they can.

Arsenal – despite being down to 10 men – almost pulled off a shock win, defending resolutely, and the was clear that their “shithousery” was annoying Pep and his players, as they were getting a taste of their own medicine for once.

It annoyed me when the Stones goal went in, I had hoped an away win for the Gunners might have upset Man City, and we might see a little more excitement at the top of the Premier League.
Anyway, Pep and his huge entourage will be off in no time should there be any meaningful punishment under the PL charges, I think this is probably his last season in England regardless of the outcome.

Interesting article, Christine.

For me, football is all about what gets me off my seat, which is an individual preference much like cake or ice cream as a treat.

I have seen the Barcelona of Iniesta and Xavi knocking it around at will but it didn't make me jump up. I watched a great Barcelona team of skill and quick passing get knocked over by the Inter Milan team managed by Mourinho who out-ran, out-hustled and out-witted them and the sheer grit and determination not to be beaten of Inter… well, that did get me off my seat.

However, nothing, nothing, nothing in football has ever been as thrilling to me as watching Dave Thomas running away from a full-back and crossing for Bob Latchford to knock it in or watching Sheedy whip a cross in for Gray or Sharp to head home.

I am afraid that type of football may be dying out or being driven out of the Premier League by the Cruyff disciples.

I guess for clarification, the point I was trying to make is that Tim Howard has stated what we all know, that every team cannot be like Man City because the players, the manager, the facilities aren't at their level – just not good enough, so why kill football trying to do something you're not capable of?

The truth is each team has to find a means to counter, like Arsenal tried, to win and not do so on Man City's terms – they can't so don't even think about it. But the Premier League has made doing so more difficult by changing rules or deleting them, as Rick said... bring back obstruction!

Danny, it's rare I post these days, but I shall endeavour to be more productive! I am trying to work on dates to come home, more likely than not, permanently. At this point it will depend on finishing this wooden hut and selling up, so it's likely post Christmas.

Having the new Everton Stadium on my doorstep will be Christmas every day.

Oh memories, Nick (@5). Young, Vernon, and Morrissey. If only we had someone with even half their talent now.

And as for Alex Parker… Finest right-back I've ever seen.

Good point, Dave C. It's not necessarily who you lose, but who. It would be interesting to see Man City without Haaland.

On a totally different scale, we've missed Branthwaite.

Trouble is our domestic game is now played and managed by foreigners adept at circumventing the UK's ancestral helter-skelter football. Add in zero tolerance on the physical stuff and those days of "up and at 'em" are long gone.

Even Liverpool, up there with the slyest dirtiest bastards ever to play the game, play less long ball these days.

You can't stop progress; the game cannot go back; you either suck it up or don't watch (my preference) but kids love it.

Football is all about opening up passing lanes when you have the ball, and closing them down when you don't.

It's as true as for my son's under 11s team as it is for the Premier League.

Maybe I don't pine for the good old days of 442 and direct play because I can't remember our 1980s teams. I can only remember our 1990s, 2000s, 2010s and 2020s teams being outplayed by teams at the top with much better players.

In any case, I don't really see Guardiola's rigid positional play system as the problem. The problem is the massive increase in athleticism and stamina and the reduction in time and space on the pitch. To combat this, individual brilliance and artistry has been dialled down and replaced with players of excellent technique being drilled to occupy very, very specific space on the pitch relative to the player with the ball (whether defending or attacking).

We're definitely seeing fewer true artists as a result of this.

Obviously there are still brilliant players, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to be brilliant if you aren't also disciplined, athletic and efficient.

I haven’t really watched much football this season but my eyes lit up when I saw Forest’s second goal at Brighton, last week. The reason why, was because of the simplicity and excellent movement, which opened up those passing lanes, and got players running into space ahead of the ball.

Five passes later, a move which started deep inside their own half, was getting passed into the Brighton net, because when it’s played correctly, football really is a simple game!

Tim Howard, makes a great point, because way too many managers, no longer try and play to their teams strengths, and the only thing they are mixing up, is some of their own players heads!!

Get yourself home Christine.

Totally random, but I've been watching a documentary about Bayern.

He may be 35; but I wouldn't mind a punt on Thomas Muller

I'll be home at the weekend. Still waiting on a ticket but I've got family stuff to deal with

Christine, I always enjoy reading your balanced comments on the various topics discussed on ToffeeWeb. This article is a further excellent example of your ability to simplify what is, prima facie, a controversial and arguably complex subject.

Money, money, money. Must be funny...

As observed above, the tricksters these days who get us out of our seat are valuable and perhaps over-protected. Way back, we used to target them. I've even read that Tommy Smith, Liverpool's right-back, saying he hit them hard in the first 5 mins, knowing he'd just get a telling-off rather than a card.

Great timing for this, Christine. I actually woke up this morning, rather bizarrely trying to remember who scored my favourite Match of the Day goal from the '70s. Frank Worthington for, I think Leicester?

I've lost a bit of love for the game these days, I must admit.

Am I a hypocrite asking to win but condemning winners? Should the end justify the means? Or is the game more than about winning?

But just taking part is not who we are, we were part of the beginning of the game, we shaped it, made it ours. Football is in our DNA, the game as it was built then, has been hijacked.

Man City is not my aspiration, Everton are. An Everton that has shaped the lives of each one of us, our families' families' family.

I believe one day we will change football, bring the value of belonging to something that changes lives, enhances them with smiles. Winning is not everything, but a little goes a long way...

As I say, am I a hypocrite, or just a fool?