Submitting this article slightly later than I'd have liked, although perhaps the homecoming defeat on Wednesday night puts an even more negative tint on any cynicism regarding the old manager's homecoming.....

Part 1: Days of Future Passed…

In 2013, David Moyes left Everton for, in his own words, “better things”.

For their part, Everton, following Moyes’s departure, were also hoping for someone to take them to the proverbial next level.

That they’ve both come back to each other 12 years later – I’m not sure how I feel about this. How has it come to this? For both parties?

Well, for a while, the latter – Everton going to the next level with another manager – looked by far the more likely to happen.

The season immediately after Moyes’s departure, Martinez improved the playing squad, , the quality of the football on display and, most crucially, the results – all while keeping the usual (for the time) negative net spend. Prior to this, it was always felt that, unless we were to go on a spending spree, deviating away from the pragmatic, percentage approach of his predecessor would mean sacrificing results. So to achieve the trifecta of improving all three in such a short space of time really was, to use one of the Spaniard’s favourite words, amazing.

Combined with the misfortunes of our former manager at Old Trafford, both on the pitch and in the lack of positive activity in the transfer market, and, after years of narrative that Moyes was some sort of super-manager, that no other boss could have achieved the consistent respectable league finishes with plucky little Everton – for one stupidly glorious season, it actually looked as though the opposite might apply, and that Moyes’s cautious approach had actually been holding us back.

The reality was possibly somewhere in between, and this reality hit home the following year. Our 72 points in Martinez’s first season had been in no small part thanks to the defensive unit that Moyes had assembled and spent years coaching. Once Sylvain Distin aged out, as he did during the latter part of 2014, the game was up.

Even at the other end, opponents had grown wise to our flowing attacking game and found ways to stifle it.  What’s more, Martinez’s first transfer window turned out to be, like everything else during his first season, an outlier. The overall quality of the squad began to deteriorate and the team began to regress.

Even so, Moyes’s reputation was depleted, and Everton’s still intact, as evidenced after Moshiri’s takeover and Martinez’s dismissal in 2016, when Moyes, now also ousted by Real Sociedad, was heavily linked to a return, only to see the big globally recognised name of Ronald Koeman take the Goodison hotseat.

Then, in 2017, while Moyes was finishing bottom of the Premier League with Sunderland, relegated for the first (and I hope only!) time in his managerial career, Everton enjoyed a solid first season under Koeman, with European football to look forward to in 2017-18 and an influx of expensive new signings to get excited about.

That would prove as good as it got for Everton and as bad as it got for Moyes. As Koeman, and a catalogue of other managers (with the possible exception of Ancelotti), floundered on the pitch, and the club was hit with Profitability and Sustainability penalties off it, Moyes was enjoying a renaissance during two spells at West Ham, taking them to a European trophy and seeing his stock rise once again.

Moyes and Everton were back on level terms. They were once again a match.

Had he returned prior to his time at West Ham, I believe there would have been far greater cause for concern. In addition to the disastrous outcome of relegation, the most surprising aspect of his time at Sunderland, for me, was his reliance on signing former Everton and Manchester United players he’d previously worked with – it was one thing when his coaching no longer produced results, and now the meticulous approach to recruitment, the eye for a bargain player, the extensive scouting, all seemed to have been lost.

However, it’s fair to say, at West Ham, he got his mojo back, in every aspect of his management. Those who read my “This week….” articles may remember that I had plenty negative to say about Moyes, yet even I was pleased to see him doing so well there, recapturing the spirit and relative success that seemed to have eluded him for almost a decade.

He could argue to have been further vindicated by the subsequent continuing misfortunes of some of his former clubs. I can’t speak for Real Sociedad, but certainly the mess Manchester United have been in, and Sunderland’s double-dip relegation after he left, suggest that the problems at these clubs ran a lot deeper than whatever mistakes he may have made during less than a year in charge at each.

His time at West Ham showed that he still has something to offer, and that, in the right circumstances, at the right club, he can still thrive. The question is, are these the right circumstances? And are we the right club?  

Part 2: The Present: Keys of the Kingdom

The number 2002 is a palindrome. Which is ironic, because we’re right back where we started, in 2002 all over again. We're 16th in the Premier League table, but on a downward trajectory and in danger of slipping further, and hoping that, at the very least, a new manager bounce will see things improve in the short term. We’ve turned to David Moyes in the hope of achieving this.

Is this where the similarity ends? Much has been made this week about how both the club and Moyes are different to the ones that parted ways in 2013. I feel we should instead be looking at the differences from the time he first arrived.

Back in 2002, I actually think he inherited a pretty decent group of players who simply hadn’t been doing themselves justice. They desperately needed someone to unlock that potential, but they weren’t bad players. The late Kevin Campbell summed it up nicely during the club's cringeily titled Magnificent Seventh season review from Moyes’s first full season in charge, saying that they’d always had the quality, it was just the direction they’d lacked until Moyes’s arrival.

And this isn’t a slight on Moyes, an implication that he only did what he did because he inherited a good side. He still had to get the best out of those players – I thought maximising that potential could see them maybe 10th place, based on the fact that three more points would have seen them finish there 2 years earlier.

They were again around that position before the collapse in league form that ended Walter Smith. So for Moyes to have them pushing for the Champions League places in two of his first three full seasons in charge, achieving the fate in his third – it exceeded my expectations of what that group of players were capable of.

And he had to replace these players over time, and it’s fair to say that he left behind a better squad than the one he inherited, which in turn enabled Martinez to do so well with them in his first season.

My point is, I don’t believe the group of players he’s arriving to now have the quality of the ones in 2002. Could you say the current crop would be able to push for Europe with a couple of shrewd signings and good coaching? Put it this way – how many of them would get into the side of March 2002? Pickford definitely. Branthwaite, on a good day, yes. McNeil, maybe? I’m not sure any would after that.

There’s no-one with the pace of Radzinski, the strength and footballing brain of Campbell, the drive and thrust of Gravesen. For all his limitations, Scott Gemmill was probably a more creative player and better passer than any of the current Everton side. And there’s certainly no-one of Rooney’s talent ready to burst onto the scene.  

He'll also no longer have a cuddly chairman who’ll never put him under any pressure and will allow the team to be in the lower reaches for the first half of the season without any questions being asked. Moyes and Everton were such a good fit for so long because neither the board nor manager asked anything of each other. There was a brilliant article on here back in 2007 raising concerns about the easy relationship between manager and chairman, an article that proved to be sadly prophetic.

While it helped with the continuity and stability of the club, it also arguably hindered further progress. For both parties. For it’s possible that the culture of complacency and the years of sycophancy at Everton caused Moyes to lose his edge. Maybe had the Moyes of 2005 or 2007 taken over at Old Trafford, it could have been a different story…

In any case, the Moyes of 2025 won't have that that luxury this time. The board and fanbase (already polarised by his return) won't be as patient this time around. It’s a different club and squad to 2002. Also, the game itself is very different to 2002.

He arrived at a time when the drinking culture and lax approach to training, although dying out, was still prevalent at some clubs. As Micah Richards recently observed when having banter about Alan Shearer’s career, “the goalkeepers had beer bellies back then”.

Against that backdrop, the team being super fit, well drilled, and with a high work ethic instilled into them (many of the players were quite visibly slimmer and more agile in 2002-03 than they had been in the years before Moyes’s arrival) was enough on its own to make a difference, even before any changes to the footballing side. Off the top of my head, I can think of 6 points gained that season from injury-time goals.

Now though, all players at all clubs are super-fit athletes. All clubs have sports science staff, and dieticians, and analysts. The goalkeepers now all have six-packs. With statistics about player’s distance covered per game readily available, there’s no place for players to hide when it comes to putting in a shift.

It’s also a lot more difficult to find bargains – you’re not going to get a defender as talented and athletic as Joseph Yobo on a season-long loan now. And even if you did, as mentioned above, everyone else has become so much fitter and faster that a defender of Yobo’s pace and strength has become the norm rather than the exception and breath of fresh air he was at the time.

Anyone with the vaguest interest in football knows we currently struggle to score goals and lack creativity and bite in the final third. The problem is, you can no longer pick up attacking midfielders with the talents of Cahill, Arteta or Pienaar for a couple of million apiece, the latter too on a try before you buy basis on loan. The shelves at Marks & Spencer have already been plundered.

And lastly, as John Daley’s already said in his recent article, AniMoyesity, we’re not getting the same David Moyes we got in 2002. He’s no longer a 38-year-old ambitious young manager, fresh from almost getting back-to-back promotions with Preston NE, a manager who personally wants to get to the top and knows he’ll have to make the most of the Everton job in order to get there.

He’s now in his early sixties, has had mostly negative experiences of football in the past decade, and has also had some time out of the game – his move to Old Trafford was the last time he was head-hunted and immediately went from one job to another. These breaks may have done him good, and he may be wiser for these negative experiences.

However, even at his most talking-about-himself-in-the-third-person confident, he surely has the candour, even if he can only acknowledge it internally, to know that, after his short-lived spell at Old Trafford, and also given the reluctance by the top clubs to hire British managers, no Champions League level clubs are going to go near him again.

Without that incentive, and with this potentially being his last job before retirement, you’ve got to hope the motivation will still be there. Then again, I’d only be moaning about being used as a stepping stone if he was hoping to impress at Everton to move on to better things again.

Whatever happens, Everton desperately need their results to improve, and fast, if they’re to avoid opening the new stadium in the Championship. Moyes, having only just rebuilt his reputation and restored his standing in the game, risks undoing it all in a few months at Everton, and becoming tarnished as the man who took Everton down.

It’s a huge gamble for both. For everyone’s sake you’ve got to hope it pays off.

Reader Comments (61)

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Barry Rathbone
1 Posted 17/01/2025 at 14:03:37
Disagree with the criticism of Martinez; his ambition required replacing the Moyes crew in toto. Remnants of a totally different mindset murmuring in the shadows was always a potential problem and so it proved with alleged factions in the camp. Replacing 10 years of construction in a season on relative peanuts was mission impossible.

Moyes is Moyes, we know better than most what he's about; he fishes the same pond as Allardyce and Dyche and only the recruitment of better players in the next fortnight and getting better results will save his bacon. Another torrid end-of-season escape won't be enough as it wasn't for Lampard.

A spanking new stadium won't greet "same old, same old" with enthusiasm.

Brian Williams
2 Posted 17/01/2025 at 14:29:24
Martinez sacked with one game to go in the season. We'd slipped to 12th in the table.

For fuck's sake, I'd give my right arm to be in that position this season.

Raymond Fox
3 Posted 17/01/2025 at 14:55:57
Moyes, given a good squad, would not have a problem finishing midtable, but we haven't got a good squad.

At this moment, we are right up the creek, we have used up all our loans, we don't have silly money to spend but we badly need reinforcements from somewhere. Add to that as usual our injury list is too long in a squad that is down to its bare bones.

Selling some of our better players has come home to roost.

Joe McMahon
4 Posted 17/01/2025 at 15:00:54
Raymond, I don't know why he cane back. He certainly doesn't need the money.

What we would do for the lost points at home to Bournemouth and away at Villa had Calvert-Lewin put away the 1:1 Those 6 points would certainly make a difference now.

Jack Convery
5 Posted 17/01/2025 at 16:18:46
Take the Moyesiah as Jack Stuart and Goodison as the Southern Cross - Check out Reap The Wild Wind. Is the Old Lady planning a perfect ending for them both.

After all the spirits of those who have graced Goodison, ever since we left Mordor, for pastures new, must be angry as hell, at what as happened to Everton.

She has lured him back, let the game begin.

Clive Rogers
6 Posted 17/01/2025 at 16:19:10
Moyes will have to do something different for Sunday and not like for like. Beto for Calvert-Lewin won't make much difference. It's been tried too many times already.

He needs a different midfield system that will create more. That might be three at the back with wingbacks with Ndiaye central behind a striker. Young should not be on the pitch.

Colin Crooks
7 Posted 17/01/2025 at 16:24:57
The obsession with Calvert-Lewin and all those imaginary chances he misses is getting ridiculous on here. I actually saw people in the main stand laughing at comments on the Live Forum at half-time at the Villa game.

The guy hasn't had so much of a sniff of a chance in our last six games. He out-paces two defenders, controls the ball on his chest and hits a terrific effort whilst running away from goal.

Tremendous applause at the ground. Astonishment and screams of derision on the forum. I'm laughing to myself now just relaying it. It`s been like that all season. He only has to touch it in the opposition half and they`re screaming "How the fuck has he missed that????"

He puts us 2-0 up against Villa away and again against Bournemouth at home. Our defenders contrive to concede three times in each match through Keystone cop defending. Yet apparently It was Calvert-Lewin who costs us the points. Sigh.

I'm convinced some posters think we only have one player. I'm dreading when he fucks off. We won't have anybody at all on the pitch then.

Jimmy Carr
8 Posted 17/01/2025 at 16:52:29
I wonder about Moyes's age, he's 61. This job requires a lot of energy, has he got it? I'm not sure. Dyche, a much younger man, was worn out by the pressure in 2 years.

If Moyes delegates to his coaches and doesn't try to do everything himself, it may work out. I hope it does. Kind of concerned that he mentioned already feeling 'burnt out' after the Villa game.

Steve Shave
9 Posted 17/01/2025 at 17:04:05
Oh good, another article about Moyes which is just a platform for negative people to vent instead of getting behind us and moving forwards.

I look forward to reading all the well-balanced comments… 😒

Ricky Oak
10 Posted 17/01/2025 at 17:04:57
Already sounds better, Moyes looks more capable, calm even quietly confident to my scorched red-raw eyes. Can I get an Amen? Or is it really looking like a horse that's been excessively flogged?

Any response gratefully received. If not worthy a response, with the greatest respect, shit!

Bob Parrington
11 Posted 18/01/2025 at 06:27:48
Jimmy, I think it's a matter of personal fitness rather than age. 61 is not too old. His brain should be working well.

I'm 76 and 7 months and I'm still playing golf and doing the Park Run early each Saturday morning, here in Adelaide. (If you don't know about the Park Run, it is an organisation started by a UK guy about 20 years ago and is now worldwide. 5 km, you can run it, trot it or walk it, take your dog on a lead or push the grandchild in the pusher. There are now millions of ordinary, everyday people from young to old participating.)

Sorry for going off track but wanted to get the thought process across. Davey Moyes is a young 61-year-old, not an old version. His mental ability will match his physical fitness.

I was not in favour of him returning, tbh, but I think he is a shrewd, man for the moment, choice by the new owners. Only time will tell, of course.

Let's just try to subdue the negative and accentuate the positive in the hope that we pull away from the drop zone.

Eric Myles
12 Posted 18/01/2025 at 07:29:17
Bob #11 "the Park Run, it is an organisation started by a UK guy about 20 years ago and is now world-wide"

I used to belong to a similar organisation, started by UK soldiers in Kuala Lumpur in 1938. The Hash House Harriers, "the drinking club with a running problem."

They are also in Adelaide (I ran with them there) and worldwide. Traditionally a Monday night run but can vary, and there may even be more than one in some places.

Michael Kenrick
13 Posted 18/01/2025 at 08:52:36
Hmmm... Surely not something the old man said?

"What I would say is that I think Dom got three chances on Wednesday night, that might be three more than he's had recently. So it was a good sign that he got them. Now, we wanted him to maybe take one of them. We just need to finish them off."

I can't argue with that… although obviously some can, and will, till the cows come home to roost.

Christine Foster
14 Posted 18/01/2025 at 10:22:09
David, obviously a fan of the Moody Blues, my favourite ever band... loved The Beatles but the story of my life belongs to The Moody Blues... great music!

You could have chosen a number of their albums to cover our situation as well, how about "Strange Times" or "On the Threshold of a Dream" followed up by "To Our Children's, Children's Children" or specifically for David Moyes, "A Question of Balance"?

I think most of us have had a bad trip for the past 20 years, but as you point out, times have changed, I doubt Moyes will have the luxury of being insulated from poor results now, no protection, he lives or dies by his decisions, the hard thing is, so do we.

He has no time to ponder, he has to change who he uses and how we play whilst convincing players and fans that he knows what he is doing. Despite all of that, I hope he can inspire us all enough to get us far away from danger. It's a gamble... and way too early to decide his fate.

As it stands he is "In Search of the Lost Chord"… I hope he finds it.

Kevin Molloy
15 Posted 18/01/2025 at 10:38:59
He doesn't fish in the same pond as Dyche and Allardyce, Barry. We managed 12 years watching Moyes's teams – we could barely put up with 6 months of Allardyce.

The more I think about the events of the last fortnight, I think it's gone down pretty much as we've been told. I genuinely think Sean Dyche felt he couldn't take the team any further (and it looks like he was probably right); he realised they were into dead cat bounce territory.

I think Moyes has also realised the team is in a significantly worse state than he thought. He realises he's got a real fight on his hands. I think in his first press conference, he was blithely "I'll say right now I think we'll stay up"; he wasn't saying that after Villa.

The whole club is very flat. And it is going to be very interesting to watch how it gets sorted out. I think it just needs the injection of one good player with the right character. That should see us ahead of Ipswich and Wolves.

Bob Parrington
16 Posted 18/01/2025 at 10:44:14
Chuckle Eric. That seems to be a fun thing. I might have liked that. This Park Run is always 8 am and is well organised. You seem to know Adelaide. So, although I don't know all of them. Victoria Park, The Torrens, West Beach, Campbeltown and Tea Tree Gully are a few.

Not bad for a Pom to create such a fitness idea throughout the UK and worldwide. Massively popular here in Australia.

Christine - Moody Blues my favourite, too. Started when at Manchester Uni 1965 to 68. Fantastic time for music.

Geoff Lambert
17 Posted 18/01/2025 at 10:48:05
Colin #7,

I wouldn't worry about the goal machine Calvert-Lewin. He is so good, he will be snapped up by one of the big boys as his contract is running down soon.

That will keep them laughing in the stands.

Bob Parrington
18 Posted 18/01/2025 at 10:52:30
Kevin. Good post IMO. I think we can forgive Moyes the result vs Villa as he had little time to put a line-up together.

I'm hoping the starting eleven vs Spurs will be somewhat different, now that he's had a few days together with the squad. 🤞

Danny Baily
19 Posted 18/01/2025 at 10:58:03
He's certainly due a goal. It'll come, and this weekend would be the perfect time.

My opinion is that we should keep the faith, unless a top, top striker is available on loan.

Bob Parrington
20 Posted 18/01/2025 at 11:26:12
Danny, I can't see any alternative to starting DCL vs Spurs. Problem for me is I've named him the 'almost there player' because he does work hard but has not been achieving. I believe he needs to leave to reignite his desire to score goals. He's had to put up with lousy service during the Dyche days and it looks like he's lost heart. Although he works his butt off, he seems to have no confidence.
Raymond Fox
21 Posted 18/01/2025 at 11:32:41
I think he will keep us up, we have a game in hand of the teams below us and 17pts from 20 games.

The 2 teams below us have 16pts from 21 games. If you apply the same percentages we would finish with 32pts with Wolves and Ipswitch on 30pts with Leicester on 26pts. Southampton are gonners.

Of course thats all very well but in the real world anything can happen, but I do take some comfort that we are in a better position than our 4 rivals.

The betting is also saying that we are favs to finish 16th, I just hope thats right.

Iain Johnston
22 Posted 18/01/2025 at 11:38:27
I'm hoping he sticks to the 3-5-2 or 3-4-1-2 we seemed a lot more balanced. Did I actually witness Young doing stepovers before a cross playing as a wingback??

I was surprised at the stats against Villa too, we competed... 49% posession, 417 passes, 80% pass accuracy, 10 shots, 3 on target.

Villa, 51% posession, 436 passes, 82% pass accuracy, 11 shots, 3 on target.

It was the Branthwaite error which cost us rather than the performance.

I was also pleased to see that the two players who have regularly underperformed, Doucoure & Harrison were the two which were substituted. Moyes has now witnessed both in action and must surely realise both offer nothing.

Sadly in terms of who starts against Spurs we have few options however, I'd like to see Ndaiye partner DCL and Lindstrom in his preferred No10 role.
so yeah 3412.
O'Brien, Tarks, Branthwaite.
Patterson, Gana, Mangala, Young.
Lindstrom.
DCL, Ndaiye.

Barry Rathbone
23 Posted 18/01/2025 at 11:40:01
Kevin 15

Moyes inherited a block of players infinitely capable of mid table plus Rooney. His "rescue" act boiled down to abandoning ambition, getting rid of the more desperate acquisitions of Walter's latter period and taking the pressure of the players by playing a basic game as per Allardyce and Dyche.

He finished 7th - marvelous - the only way was up

Except it wasn't and after bringing in his own players the sum total of 17th was the result which would have resulted in the sack at any of the other top clubs (yeh, we still thought of ourselves in those terms back then).

But we had BK in charge - "to exist" was to be our new ethos.

Ernie Baywood
24 Posted 18/01/2025 at 11:46:04
I'm still confident we'll stay up. I believe Moyes will keep us up with a bit more breathing space than Dyche would have. And I think we'll end up in the same position regardless. More to do with the teams below us than anything we do.

If the above happens to be true then sacking Dyche never made any business sense. Cost with no return.

But at some point we needed to reverse the decline and start the rebuild. We didn't need to wait to move into the new place to do that. Dyche wasn't about rebuilding - he had no interest in it and our owners were, quite tightly, never going to ask him to be the one to do it.

Hopefully we've sunk as low as we'll go. Moyes to start the rebuild over the next two years and he'll have done his job.

Iain Johnston
25 Posted 18/01/2025 at 12:18:43
Barry, have you actually noted our league positions during Moyes's first tenure and considered what he actually had to spend?

A nett spend of £6M over those 11 seasons, around £450k per season.

7, 17, 4, 11, 6, 5, 5, 8, 7, 7, 6.

Oh how I wish we could 'exist' like that now.

Moyes performed despite Kenwright tightly gripping the reigns like a demented jockey on a Grand National winner running the club like it was back in the Good Old Days of the 1880s sporting clubs with members paying an annual fee, wrapping his arms around his winning poker chips shrieking 'mine, all mine" as he ran back to London?

Do you actually think Moyes wanted to sell Rooney and only be allowed to spend £8M of the transfer fee on Cahill & Beattie?

Barry Rathbone
26 Posted 18/01/2025 at 13:51:24
Iain 25

So what?

If he'd been sacked as would have happened elsewhere "net spend" wouldn't come into it.

He was fortunate to have Rooney to sell and only a 4-team "elite" with some real crap regularly forming the lower end of the Premier League. You can play with stats all you like, eg, his wage bill equated to where he finished.

He was time rich if not money rich having the comfiest ride in the Premier League — simply because existing in the Premier League became acceptable among some.

Ryan Holroyd
27 Posted 19/01/2025 at 19:13:22
Barry Rathbone talking out his arse as is usual, then, I see.
Peter McHugh
28 Posted 20/01/2025 at 00:18:12
Tend to agree with Barry's theme in terms of ambition and ceiling. I didn't think Moyes Mk 1 was terrible but equally certainly didn't think he was the Moyesiah.

We are however, in a dreadful position and I think he's considerably better than Dyche or Allardyce.

I also think he's better than Moyes Mk 1 with his experience and experiences.

Ryan Holroyd
29 Posted 20/01/2025 at 18:49:28
Moyes would have got sacked for getting Everton into their highest positions in 40 years on a constant basis. Yeah ok.

Totally hilarious.

Annika Herbert
30 Posted 21/01/2025 at 05:04:14
Ryan @ 29, whatever exactly did we win during those amazing years of Moyes first tenure?

Sounds can like you are another supporter of being happy either with a top half finish each season? With absolutely no ambition to actually win anything.

But finishing in a high position is fine, totally hilarious.

Eric Myles
31 Posted 21/01/2025 at 06:21:44
Annika #30, as I've told you before we 'won' £2 million per league placing. Money we could have sorely done with over the last 10 years.

So yes, finishing in a high position is infinitely better than relegation dogfights.

Robert Tressell
32 Posted 21/01/2025 at 07:35:01
Annika, I agree only titles and trophies represents success. But from where we are, no manager in the history of football is going to deliver short term success. The story of the Premier League - and now the Champions League era - is that money plays a huge part. Money on transfers, wages, academy investment, commercial revenues to manage PSR etc etc. The only thing available in the short term is improvement not success: the alternative is not better it is relegation and potential insolvency.
Steve Brown
33 Posted 21/01/2025 at 08:43:45
Rob, you flog that argument to death frankly.

FA Cup and League Cup winners since 2000 - Portsmouth, Wigan, Leicester, Blackburn Rovers, Middlesbrough, Birmingham City.

I agree that progress in the premier league will be long and hard won, but there is success to be had to cup competitions.

And for the love of god, can someone tell @ 29 that finishing an average of 7th place for 11 years is not success.

Robert Tressell
34 Posted 21/01/2025 at 11:51:27
Steve # 33 - yes the same sort of points are being made on both sides. That seems to be how ToffeeWeb works.

In any case you're kind of echoing my thoughts there. You've listed a load of lower league clubs who have won a cup and then returned to obscurity. Only Leicester is currently still in the Premier League after being promoted – and on current form, will be relegated.

Blackburn managed a title but only because they had the biggest budget in the Premier League. No other reason. If we had the biggest budget in the Premier League, I'd expect a title too.

An isolated cup win is great and for us would be a nice improvement – but it would not be success.

Brian Williams
35 Posted 21/01/2025 at 11:56:35
Robert #34.

An isolated cup win is great and for us would be a nice improvement – but it would not be success.

Robert #32.

Annika, I agree only titles and trophies represents success.

Make your mind up Robert. That's one of the quickest contradictions I've seen on here.

Liam Mogan
36 Posted 21/01/2025 at 12:03:36
From a fan perspective and the sheer joy of winning a trophy, I don't think you can under estimate what that means.

If winning a trophy (which we have only achieved 15 times in our long history) is not success, then what is?

How are we defining success?

Ben King
37 Posted 21/01/2025 at 12:16:13
Spot on, Liam #36.

How can any decent fan turn their nose up at winning a trophy?

Obviously we'd love to win the Premier League or the Champions League are we saying that we wouldn't celebrate a League Cup win or an FA Cup win? (Particularly if it's a stepping stone to better players, better football & more winning football).

Odd thought.

Robert Tressell
38 Posted 21/01/2025 at 14:55:24
It's all relative isn't it?

Do Man Utd see their cup win under Ten Hag as success?

Personally I think genuinely successful clubs would see an isolated cup win as nothing like success.

James Hughes
39 Posted 21/01/2025 at 15:07:25
Well Robert, to be perfectly honest. I would be more than slightly happy if we won the FA Cup this year. Even if it was just a minor blip, it has been 30 years
Brian Williams
40 Posted 21/01/2025 at 15:17:28
I wouldn't waste your time James.
Robert Tressell
41 Posted 21/01/2025 at 15:19:23
As would I. Very much so - for lots of good reasons already set out.

But personally I would like to measure our success against other big clubs - and not the likes of Portsmouth and Birmingham (which is where the conversation began).

Dave Abrahams
42 Posted 21/01/2025 at 15:24:53
James (39), Yes I’d be deliriously happy if Everton won the cup this season mind you I bet Robert ( various ) would be as well.

I just checked the odds for the winners this season and one bookie has City favourites followed by Liverpool then Chelsea, they have Everton at 50/1 with Wolves, Southampton and Ipswich at 40/1 ——maybe because we play Bournemouth in the next round!

I might risk £10 on that but after reviewing the situation £5? After another review 50p——It’s not the money you understand but Moyes winning a serious trophy! Nah you know what I mean don’t you? Then again ——I think I’ll review the situation again.

Jay Harris
43 Posted 21/01/2025 at 15:28:32
To me times have changed.

Getting in the champions league or even Europe is considered a bigger success than winning the cup.

Apart from 1995 we have been appalling since the late 80s and therefore getting into Europe with a couple of semifinals and a final could be considered moderate success given the megabucks spent by City and Chelsea by comparison.

Mike Gaynes
44 Posted 21/01/2025 at 15:31:39
Amen, James #39. I would be absolutely ecstatic if we won the Cup, and it wouldn't be spoiled in the slightest by our position in the table unless we were headed down. Victory is always sweet.

Robert #38, I really think you're out of step here. Yes, a Cup for Real or Bayern or PSG is expected, almost obligatory, and the frustration of failure probably outweighs the joy of winning one. But for every other club in the world, taking silverware is success.

I couldn't celebrate '95 because I was the sole Blue in a bar full of Manure fans and didn't even know another Everton supporter. I was already starting to make up for it in '09 when Saha scored but we know what happened after that. I would explode with joy on this one.

Liam Mogan
45 Posted 21/01/2025 at 16:04:33
I think I'd take a trophy over any abstract, subjective and undefinable measure of success.

We've only won 5 in my 50 plus years. Like to see a couple more before I leave this mortal coil.

Robert Tressell
46 Posted 21/01/2025 at 16:28:00
We seem to have disappeared deep into semantics here.

If others want to define success differently that's fine.

Ultimately... We'd all enjoy a cup win. We'd all enjoy sustained periods competing for titles and European and domestic trophies.

It seems like the former probably comes before the latter. And with a new stadium, new owners etc - then hopefully we can achieve the latter with a good medium to long-term strategy.

Brian Williams
47 Posted 21/01/2025 at 16:31:42
You started it, Robert.
Raymond Fox
48 Posted 21/01/2025 at 16:44:51
We have lost Broja in a cup game, what if half of our better players also get crocked, will you enjoy your cup win?

Not worth the risk in my eyes, there's only one competition for me — unless the Under-21s can win a cup.

Liam Mogan
49 Posted 21/01/2025 at 16:54:37
🤣 Brian

Raymond, I don't think anyone was saying prioritise the cup over league safety. Rather whether winning a cup is termed success.

I wouldn't take a cup win over relegation.

Rob Halligan
50 Posted 21/01/2025 at 17:13:47
I’ve seen many clubs have an open top bus parade, following winning the FA Cup. I’ve yet to see one team have an open top bus parade for finishing fourth, and therefore qualifying for the CL. Finishing fourth is not success, winning a cup is. Also, winning the FA Cup guarantees you European football the following season.

Obviously, I’d take staying up over winning the cup, but only if Paul Hewitt could guarantee it!

Brian Williams
51 Posted 21/01/2025 at 17:27:05
👏👏👏 Rob.
James Hughes
52 Posted 21/01/2025 at 17:27:48
Mr Halligan, drops mic.

Mike Gaynes
53 Posted 21/01/2025 at 17:32:48
His Honor Judge Halligan has slammed the gavel.
Mick O'Malley
54 Posted 22/01/2025 at 15:08:14
I'd take winning a cup over finishing in the Top 4 any day of the week. Watching us win the FA Cup in '84 was my favourite day ever as an Everton fan.

I can't be arsed with the "finish in the Top 4 league", different if it was the European Cup when it was only the winners of their respective leagues who participated. For me, the Champions League is just a pimped-up Uefa Cup.

James Marshall
55 Posted 22/01/2025 at 15:46:40
Success in modern football is making the Top 4 purely on a financial basis and the ability to attract better players.

In my view, making the Top 4 should be a priority; cup wins can come later once you've attracted better players, and got some coin coming in.

An isolated cup win is a fun day out and a ticket into Europe, but for a club like ours, the likelihood of us winning either domestic cup is pretty low.

I agree with Rob Halligan that it creates great memories, and you get a parade but for sustaining a football club as a business, it's all about being in the Top 4.

What would you prefer, longevity at the top, or a fun day out? Football clubs have little choice but to aim for the Top 4 because that's where the money is, and where the best players are.

Rob Halligan
56 Posted 22/01/2025 at 15:59:19
James, yes that is something I missed out saying, that club owners and chairman would rather finish in the Top 4 and therefore see the Champions League money at the end of the rainbow come flooding in.

I think players obviously see things differently, as they would like to be looking at a winners medal a few years after retiring, and not the bank balance of the club they played for, which would mean bugger all to them.

For fans and players, it's the thrill of seeing the team win a trophy. For the owners and chairman, it's the thrill of seeing millions rolling into their club's bank account.

For managers……well they're stuck in the middle aren't they. They want to win a cup or two, but also want to keep their bosses happy, hence the “weakened team“ in cup games.

Who'd be a manager eh!!

Simon Harrison
57 Posted 22/01/2025 at 16:32:31
Rob,

It's very sad to say in this day and age, that unless you get European football, the chance of winning the cup competitions is very slim indeed. Not impossible, just very slim, due to the financial constraints the club is under without Uefa and now Fifa money.

The only way I see us climbing up the table consistently, is a huge upturn in revenue and commercialisation of the club (ie, generating more money) in order to be able to move up the table in order to attract slightly better players.

Which in turn means we generate more revenue and commercialisation, which again moves us on the level where we could possibly hope to make 6th or 7th in the Premier League, or even a slightly better chance of 'on any given Sunday' winning a cup!

Either result, 6th or 7th (or better!) or winning a cup immediately boosts the coffers, and once feeding at the Uefa trough, and staying there, generates more cash for even better players and more chance of pushing higher.

Or win the Uefa Conference, get automatic entry into the Europa League and then into the Champions (sic!) League.

Sadly, that is what football has become, the Premier League is about trying to get into the top seven or avoiding relegation.

That is how bad football has been nowadays. When I think about it, I found it depressing, to be honest, Rob. How you and the other travelling faithful have kept going and keep going is beyond me, but I will say kudos to you all, thank you, and chapeau!

Simon Harrison
58 Posted 22/01/2025 at 16:36:12
By the way Rob, when did the cult of the manager start?

Was it with Wenger and Ferguson? Or Paisley, or Shankly, even Dalglish for his work at Blackburn? Or was it before that? Like Ramsey, or Bill Nicolson etc?

It seems to me that there is much more interest in managers than players now, unless you are a truly 'elite' player.

Michael Lynch
59 Posted 22/01/2025 at 17:02:53
I'd rather finish top 6/7, and then have a good chance to win the Europa Conference the next season than finish top 4. No contest for me.

No contest for the players too I should think – as outlined above, they'd rather be looking at a winner's medal and remembering parading the cup around Liverpool.

I couldn't give a flying one about finishing top 4, and if that's what the owners prefer, fuck them. I want silverware, or at least a decent shot at it.

Rob Halligan
60 Posted 22/01/2025 at 17:17:00
Simon, the managers of today are nothing compared to the managers of yesteryear. The likes of Pep, Slot (Klopp before him), whoever is manager of Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal have it easy, simply because of the Champions League treasure chest. Their clubs are flushed with money and can buy the best players.

You mention some great managers from the past, but there are plenty more… our very own Harry Catterick and Howard Kendall had to build winning teams by astute buying of players.

But go back further, Brian Clough, Don Revie, Matt Busby, John Lyall (West Ham), all great managers and all built winning teams without the aid of money. I'm sure there are many more I've missed out.

Ccould you imagine the managers of today trying to cope pre-Premier League without the vast money they receive? Not a chance. It was an even playing field back then.

Simon Harrison
61 Posted 22/01/2025 at 22:30:11
I've got to agree with you, Rob.

The myth of Pep has only been examined in a very cursory manner because he has only managed top sides with established foundations, with top players and big-player pulling power.

You can't knock his record but I think Ancelotti's achievements have been much better, He built a Parma team to challenge the Serie A elite. He got AC Milan to break the Inter and Juve duopoly, and has been successful wherever he has been with the exceptions of Napoli and Everton.

My old man used to explain to me that the reason teams didn't win back-to-back titles very often is because you didn't have subs or only one sub; that it was hard to have a big enough squad (because of costs and playing time) to challenge year on year. Plus, players were poached from winning sides, and title rivals managed to strengthen in the season too, none of this transfer window rubbish!

As you say, managers like I previously mentioned and the ones you've mentioned were exceptional; you could add Malcolm Allison, Joe Mercer, Tommy Doherty, Ron Saunders, Bobby Robson, George Graham et al – all as you say had to build up squads and maintain, in some cases, European adventures while challenging for the title again.

As you say, usually, with very little difference in money available to the various clubs. Don't forget it was also the age of back-handers and bungs! Oh for a new 'Cloughie' to take us over and lead us to new glories!

As for modern managers coping in the past, no way! But old managers coping now, they'd find it a doddle, other than the modern footballers attitudes and laissez-faire mentality!

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