Moyes says a European place has to be the challenge for next season

"We are seeing the odd team now maybe having a go such as Bournemouth and Fulham, while Brentford have tried to show over the years that they can get close to it.

"I don't see why we shouldn't try to get ourselves into that group. If we keep playing the way we have been doing, get results, then we will give ourselves every chance."

So, we want to be in the same group as Bournemouth, Fulham and Brentford next season? Inspirational. [Shakes head…]

Or do you want Moyes to say we will definitely break into the Champions League next season? Of course we all want that but it’s completely unrealistic.

To me, Moyes saying that displays ambition. If we are at the level of Bournemouth in 2½ years, he will have done a fantastic job and we can then see someone (hopefully a really progressive and hungry manager) pick up the reigns and kick us on again. A bit like Martinez should have but didn’t once he lost the solid organisational structure built by Moyes over time. Different times now though and hopefully more stable backing.

I really struggle with this "damned if you do, damned if you don’t" stuff. What is it we want? Is there seriously anyone on here who wouldn’t be delighted if we were as good as Bournemouth next season??

He didn’t say “I hope one day we can be as big a club as Bournemouth and Brentford”. We are a big club, we know that, but we are a big club who has been through many tough years. In order to get to where we need to be, we have to transition back, starting with being able to mix with mid-table and hopefully competing with Bournemouth.

But Bournemouth in 2 and a half seasons? No thanks. We've had enough years in the doldrums, so now is the time to be bold, think big and aim high and get there quickly.

Both Moyes and the club.

All respect to Bournemouth, Brighton and Brentford, but talk about Tottenham, Newcastle, Manchester United and Chelsea.

TFG need to spell out their aims for the club; it can't just fall onto the manager.

If their goal is to qualify for Europe regularly but not compete hard for a trophy, then their popularity will wane rapidly.

If they are ambitious for the club then spell it out as a statement of intent. And invest in the playing squad accordingly.

He is aspiring to as good as Fulham, Brentford, Bournemouth? That's progress in his eyes?

Next season, I would hope every one of those teams are below us and we are knocking at the door of the Top 6. That's aspiration. Moyes loves to understate expectations, always has; talk up the opposition, downplay our chances so that, if we get there or thereabouts, he can point to it as an achievement.

Sorry, Steve, it's not a case of "dammed if you do" — if he had just kept it to "competing for Europe next season", I would have been happy… but no, he throws in those three clubs to make it clear that's a success in his eyes.

Exactly, we need to know what they aspire to.

If you have to make comparisons (and I don't think he does) then, why not talk of the progress Aston Villa have made under new owners?

Nottingham Forest?

Too close... too soon?

But look where they were 12 months ago.

We'll find out tomorrow how close we are to chasing those tails.

So Danny/Christine et al are you saying that you expect us to be 4th or 5th next season? Because that is what it will take to be above those teams he mentioned. That is very unlikely given the size of the squad overhaul and current uncertainty around the size of the summer budget.

Honestly, who'd be an Everton manager? The man has us 6th in the form table and some are moaning about his attitude or dissecting his words. There are many who still hold the "knife to a gunfight" quote against him from 10 years ago, as if in over 500 hundred press conferences and interviews as Everton manager he wasn't ever going to get some things wrong!

I respect all of your views on this (as expressed on the thread of Christine's article) and I weirdly feel I am in a minority on this. I can't remember who it was on here who was always going on about "happy clappers" but if my biggest crime is to defend a manager who I believe did a very steady job first time round and is currently doing an excellent job this time round then I'll take it.

This is an unbelievably tough league and things can change very quickly, therefore I believe in giving credit where it's due and not holding too much of a grudge about things that happened many years ago. For me he is the right man for now, its up to him to see if he can earn a longer stay.

I promise you if it all starts to go south I will be happy to say its time for him to step aside if I think the time is right or he isn't up to it. I believe he is the man to steady the ship, bring stability and impose his high standards on the club again. I am happy to be wrong, I will take it gracefully but obviously I don't want that because that means our beautiful club has stopped moving forwards again after so many years of going backwards.

I see no reason we can't compete. As Michael mentions, Nottingham Forest. Nearly sent back down to the Championship last season, favourites going into this one.

There's always a chance if the mentality is right.

I don't think anyone wants that, Steve. We want to see improvement whoever is running the first team.

Good he's talking about Europe, but his mention of those clubs reminds me of him saying Manchester United (then reigning champions) must aspire to be Manchester City, or words to that effect. That didn't endear him to the red side of Manchester, whether it was taken out of context or not.

He's setting a low bar in my opinion. If I was him, I just wouldn't mention other clubs, we can do that on here. Focus on his ambitions for Everton.

I can understand the other side to the argument because a lot of people feel that, by nature, Moyes always plays the cautious card by bringing in clubs like Bournemouth, rather than clubs like Aston Villa, which can come across as downplaying expectations.

It's all just lip service to me because actions will always speak louder than words in my book. That's why I think the most significant post on this thread is the one written by the other Steve @4.

Everton Football Club are now in a position that means they can only really move forward on the football pitch with some real investment in the playing squad, so hopefully a big summer awaits.

Moyes has done a brilliant job for himself over the years, earning really fabulous wages with a mediocre ability.

Listen to serial winner Neville Southall and it may help explain why people like me have certain expectations. Some may call them deluded, but I don't care… and yes, I am impatient to get back there quickly.

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Unwelcome by the previous board. No wonder. He has standards for Everton.

This is due to the so-called FFP machinery. And even though it's changing (again) to preference the favoured clubs, it won't do us any good for at least a season or maybe longer. And as ticket prices are low in comparison to most clubs, that too will be a disadvantage.

To evidence our poor chances of increasing squad numbers in the transfer market, we have reverted back to our old ways. Or done a Ratcliffe.

Feyenoord want €30M for David Hanko, so we bid €25M for the centre-back / left-back.

Several things disturb me by this:-

1) We need a fucking striker!!!

2) Why are we looking at that position when others are more pressing?

3) Branthwaite?

4) We know Mykolenko is weak but at least we have a left-back

5) Left winger. Right winger. Both positions need decent players. In central midfield, we need strength.

6) What the fuck are we doing under-bidding, like Man Utd did to us. How far did that get them?

If they want £30M for a player with numerous interests from other clubs, why do we make arseholes of ourselves? Back to crappy Kenwright days you havent gotten over, eh, Mr Moyes???

We don't yet know how much we will or won't invest in the squad this summer, so there are no facts out there.

Especially not those in shouty capital letters.

As for FACTS, you're expressing an OPINION based upon RUMOUR.

Rob, it is not negotiation when Feyenoord state the price of the player, openly. That they won't listen to offers for less than £30M then we offer £25M.

This we did in the dark ages long ago and it got us nowhere, embarrassing the club.

Check out Toffee TV if you don't believe Dutch and German press.

We have fewer players in our squad than when the DoF began.

When did the DoF begin? You mean Steve Walsh at Everton in June 2016? Or who and when???

I'll give a fact: we have 25 players in our first-team squad.

Here's another fact: we have had 25 players in our first team squad since I don't know when.

Probably long before June 2016.

So what exactly is this 'fact' that is so meaningful to you?

24/25
20 fully owned players
Including 3 GKs
Excluding 4 loan players
Total 24

Source of statistics = ToffeeWeb

Some will argue that the corruption that has just robbed Atletico Madrid has been prevalent for years in Europe's premier competition.

But we were an absolute disgrace against Rapid Bukarest and did become a laughing stock, Eric.

So it will be baby steps for me, a move away from being relegation candidates but anything above 10th place will be a surprise and a bonus.

Around that time, I liked watching the travelling Everton supporters at Nurnberg. I couldn't be there but I believe we left an impression on the locals.

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Hopefully more to come. And soon.

Better squads than we have now, David. We don't know what the squad will look like after the summer.

Moyes got us to 4th once in 11 seasons. What is your point?

Mine would be that any manager under no pressure at all, should have been building a team.

He didn't do that; he was absent from the watchtower.

Care to explain your thinking behind that?

Finishing 8th next season is clear progress.

I am not putting my blue-tinted specs on or thinking - somewhat delusionally in my book - that we are (pick n' mix) a big club, a big club with a magnificent new stadium, a big club with a big history, Everton etc., and therefore ought to finish - where? - 4th/6th.

8th next season will be good progress and yes it would make me satisfied (though anywhere higher would be just brilliant). I would then expect Moyes to leave having done what he was asked to do (I think) which was to steady the ship.

That would be the moment to think seriously about a higher level with a flashy, zippy, charismatic, successful younger fella.

We have little idea about the window to come. Our current squad is not great and would need to be significantly better to finish 8th or higher next season.

There are not many of them that I think would be of the necessary quality to take us to 8th and higher: Pickford, Tarkowski, Branthwaite, O'Brien, Gueye, Garner, Armstrong (maybe), Ndiaye, Alcaraz.

Others, in my opinion, like Armstrong, Iroegbunam or Chermiti, still have plenty to prove ('there's a player in there' doesn't cut it) and might well be worth keeping on. Others will be gone.

Yes, I did leave out McNeil.

Message to Michael K: why is Charly not listed in the first team squad?

8th would be progress, but it doesn't mean we can't be brave and aim higher.

I will accept being called deluded. It's just how I think.

If Moyes achieves what he was brought into to do, stability, then it's job done. If he does better and doesn't choke at the first sight of over-achieving, then I'll be happy.

I don't recall many football managers being more than cautiously optimistic about their teams chances for the forthcoming season.

If he had said the teams in 6th, 7th and 8th (average 7th), then that's setting the aspiration to a higher level.

Finishing 8th would certainly be improvement but in defining an aspiration to belong in a group that is mid table at best, is resetting expectations and objectives with a much lower bar.

And Christine I've noticed you keep using the term "aspiration". Moyes not so much.

He didn't use that word.

Point it out if I m mistaken.

But I honestly think that in our present circumstances - new ownership, several seasons of hovering in and around the drop, a financial situation that we are told is better but nothing has been revealed, and a score of pariahs and mediocrities that can be shipped out at long last - 8th-ish would be genuine and realistic progress of the sort that Moyes might be expected to do but no more.

I will expect a push to the top 6 after a nice goodbye and thanks to Moyes and and the appointment of a youngish gaffer who we the fans would be thrilled to see appointed. But 15th-ish to 8th-ish in one year is not bad at all. And if we make the exact same progress in the season after that the Danny in me says that we will finish 1st two years from now.

COYB

OPINION: Moyes needs to avoid managing expectations, it's not a good look

I jest but progress takes vision, planning and forward momentum. We have started to move forwards, BMD takes us further next season. We don’t yet even have all the staff to galvanise said vision but we are getting there.

Bottom up culture change is required and yes I believe that includes mindset of where we should be aiming as a club, challenging again for honours. However there are steps required to get there. Structure is required to take those steps.

8th would be an excellent next step but as someone else sensibly posted above, we will struggle to get the squad to that in one window. We are so thin on the ground.

“Short-term, yes. Long-term, no. Because I still think if we want to sign the calibre of players we want to sign they’re going to come for someone who plays the style of football they like.

“We need someone with the personality to drive and drive and play the style of football that people want to come because we’re going to have to fill that ground and we have to be in Europe.

“It won’t be sustainable to finish 15th in that [new] stadium; it just won’t. And it will be disgraceful if we don’t finish [higher].”

Moyes has already made it clear that he sees us as being bigger than those clubs and needing to have more ambition than them.

He might not have lasted 5 minutes with the previous leadership (used in the loosest of terms), but he might have a chance with this lot.

Change and expectation is to be embraced, not cautiously feared.

1. If we finish 8th, that's a significant improvement on were we are. No question.

2. If we aim to qualify for a European spot, then spot on, I have no problem.

But... Moyes aspired us to specifically three clubs lying currently 8th, 10th and 12th. And commenting that we should be aiming to be in that group of teams as our objective next season.

Irrespective of who those teams are, generally speaking they don't automatically qualify for Europe. In my opinion, that may well be reality if he has little or minimal funds but, as yet, we do not know what funds he will have or know our owner's intent or expectations.

But setting a low bar achievement, which I consider mid-table (10th) is, is setting low expectations for next season If he had just left it at an aspiration to qualify for Europe next season, I would have been happy. But he qualified it with teams we should be above – not with.

You may or may not agree but, until we get some indication from our leader, on transfer kitty and their expectations, only then can we assess our chances.

It might have been the case in his day but, other than a few exceptions, I don't believe players are attracted by managers anymore.

Harry Kane didn't seem too troubled by the arrival of relegated Burnley's Vincent Kompany last summer.

I dare say Ivan Toney wasn't too familiar with the work of manager Matthias Jaissle before joining Al-Ahli - but was certainly happy enough with his £400,000 per week wage.

Mohammad Kudus would have been perfectly happy to join and play for Dyche if we could have found the money for the transfer fee (when Thelwell was trying to sign him the year before he left Ajax for West Ham).

First and foremost, players are attracted by the salaries on offer. There's then an attraction towards the Rich 8 with recent Champions League pedigree – because those are the clubs that pretty much win everything (and can afford the highest wages).

In a few cases, we've seen young players attracted by "the club" because of a track record in player development – like Sancho and Gittens at Dortmund – and Madueke at PSV. But in those cases again, it's nothing to do with the manager. Managers come and go in any case.

Nottingham Forest, even if they didn't have a deduction last season, would still have finished 17th. They changed the manager, spent funds, are now sitting 3rd and very likely will get qualification to the Champions League.

So, I ask the question: If it obviously can be done, why isn't Moyes using them as a benchmark?

Reality bites. We are not in a healthy position squad-wise. Nor do we have the quality of players in the squad required to lift us much higher. Rules and regulations prevent other clubs doing what is being suggested by many for Everton, ie Newcastle.

You want better players; they cost. We have a very low number of players we 'own' and can possibly raise capital from. Realistically, selling several players to buy 1 'decent one' would deplete this threadbare squad to uncompetitive.

Selling Branthwaite… well. Those who can afford our asking price are very near to breaching PSR domestically. If we did manage to get the full money, as opposed to some money plus a shopping list of ludicrous ifs, and maybes triggering further funds, then clubs will up the price for whoever we approach.

So, what we need is to boost the member of players we own. Loan players have been pretty disappointing and ineffective. Buying players of quality and in numbers for Everton has been elusive for generations. Those responsible have failed.

Buying players who show promise but are untested and generally unfit, has also failed. Leaving us short in every position and a vastly depleted squad.

Only one or two out of all the recent acquisitions are capable of providing the quality of expectations for Everton and the new stadium and pushing us up the Premier League. Moyes has his work cut out for sure.

The whole sorry mess hasn't gone away. It's been taken on by TFG who will set achievable expectations.

We are heading in the right direction after years of freefall. We have an exciting summer of squad change ahead and moving into the most incredible new stadium next season, one to make all around us envious.

Can we not just sit with all that for a moment and be happy with that? Personally I feel so grateful just to be rid of Moshiri and to be taking some steps towards being a professionally run outfit.

I made my view very clear on the thread for Christine's article, Moyes is currently doing a fine job, can we just be with that for a moment? Just for a bit?

Steve, no one is denying he has dug us out of a hole, but the "6th best form" won't continue to wash. In fact, and I haven't done the maths, but with 5 points in the last 18, I would doubt that is the case even now.

The only form that matters is what the table says at the end of the season and 38 games.

As for ambition, sorry to go on, but if the aspiration is to be like Fulham, then that's a red card from me.

What more can the man do other than have us in good form? Let's just enjoy that, we are punching above our weight (by that, I mean with the squad at his disposal right now, not in terms of where we should be as a club).

The plan is for us to get better.

In the summer and next season, the hard work starts to get us competing again and not be subject to the emotional turmoil of staring the prospect of relegation in the mirror.

We all want the same outcome, there is just a difference in how quick we go and who is the person to take us there.

Don't use the term "punching above our weight". We've been punching below it for far too long.

I've made my views on the manager's longevity clear. But I would like nothing more than to see him succeed and win us a trophy in the time he is here.

When or if Moyes is playing awful footy and we are losing against Burnley and Coventry next season, then we can whinge… but at the moment, we can be optimistic about the future and happy with how things look.

He made his ambitions clear enough for me, its nit picking criticising him for mentioning clubs that are doing better than us at this moment.
We can argue all day long about managers and disagree, but we will not improve enough to climb the league table until we get better quality players. The players are trying their heart out which is great but we lack that bit of magic the best teams can produce.

This thread, and Christine's has demonstrated that no matter what is said, I and those of similar opinions won't be changed and you Shane and others won't have yours altered.

To be clear, if I haven't been:

1. I was disappointed when we reappointed him.

2. He got off to a great start and we have to be grateful for that.

3. For me, he is not the long-term solution.

4. We are starting to creep back to ways of old, both performances and language.

5. I would like nothing more than to see him get us a trophy before we both part ways and move on.

6. There is nothing wrong with expectation.

Live up to our Moto for the first time in decades.

We can exhaust ourselves on this without altering peoples' stance. More importantly, the sun is shining and we have a match today, which I hope the manager sets us up to win for the first time in 6 games.

With Christine on this one Moyes doesn't like taking risks.

25th April 1982 the divisive figure of Margaret Thatcher came to the steps of 10, Downing Street to announce to the press that the Royal Marines had re-captured South Georgia from Argentina. It was the first step on the mission to free the Falkland Islands from their depressing future under Argentinian Military rule.

The press was not interested in the victory but what was next. Thatcher famously retorted - Just rejoice at that news and congratulate our forces.

Just get a sense that the divisive figure (at least on ToffeeWeb) of David Moyes has freed us from the spectre of relegation and needs to say - just rejoice at that news and congratulate our players.

Sorry Phil, I can't rejoice on avoiding relegation yet again when it looked a distinct possibility, even though I tried my best to not admit it outwardly.

Relief at the news maybe, but not celebration.

The players, and the manager, do deserve praise and they get mine. Moyes for taking the shackles off even though there have been signs of them being put back on lately to a degree.