David Moyes gave his squad players a chance, it cost him

I would only make a couple of changes (plus the goalkeeper) so that the structure and understanding is there for the new players. If things go okay, then you can add one or two more later in the game.

One other key point is that we badly miss Gueye when he doesn't play. Not sure what's going to happen if/when he goes to the Afcon.

Not one of them realistically gave Moyes a headache in choosing the team for the next match - none proved they were worthy.

Seven changes was too much for those players who have never played together so that didn't help. Back to normal next match and get back to a winning streak or Moyes will lose the faith.

It has to be back to normal, Mike, to restore some belief, for everyone concerned with Everton.

Moyes, like most managers, is self-serving. The platitudes that he gets the club and knows what the supporters want are just that. The reality is that, if he finishes 12th and gets to the semi-final of the cup, then he most likely won't be here next season.

He will know the last manager who really gives a shit about what the fans wanted was Martinez. He got to 2 semis, was robbed by a decision which changed the game in one and an unfortunate slip at a crucial time in the other when we were in the ascendency.

His medicine for prioritising the cups was mayhem in the stands which Moshiri's admitted why he lost his job. Had he finished 9th and went out of both cups, he probably would have benefitted from Moshiri's millions.

Moyes has done an excellent job since he's been here but, since preseason, I have been very unimpressed by him with his antics during tough transfer negotiations which I believe were self-serving and not for the good of the club.

At Leeds, his decision making was poor by not playing Ndiaye right instead using Alcaraz there was incomprehensible. In addition, it was his tweak to drop Dewsbury-Hall deep that ultimately cost us the game with Stach suddenly turning into Frank Lampard at will. We were hanging on for dear life, so it was not the time to gamble.

It seems strange, however, that, since that game when we needed a goal against Villa and Wolves, that he didn't make the same change when circumstances were a lot more conducive.

The selection last night was also self-serving, I feel. Players like Dibling, Alcaraz and McNeil have largely been frozen out and Barry having more new players to understand last night won't have aided his cause.

Considering Beto's success last season when being fed by Garner and Alcaraz with those sliding through-balls it's bizarre that the service he is getting now would be perfect for Calvert-Lewin.

Moyes's summary of the game told me about his mindset. "The new boys I threw in were crap (their fault, even though only Barry was match fit). I had to bring on my players to save the day (but they didn't)."

Indeed, Dewsbury-Hall, who was exceptional for 2 games, has been worse than any other player for the last 3 games yet played the entire two previous games and considered the first choice to resurrect this one. I'm sure Beto would have preferred to come on with Alcaraz in the hole rather than him.

That competition was the only real chance we had to win a trophy; once again, we threw it away, just so we can finish about 12th in the league.

We are desperate for a trophy, doesn't he realise that? It's 30 years since we won a trophy. I am still fuming with that team selection. Fuck off, Everton, another season of misery.

Moyes has had a chance to turn things around and had a little success late last season with a couple of wins this season albeit a little dodgy at times.

The performance at Leeds was poor after leaving Grealish out from the start gave you an indication of Moyes's failings.

Now however, after three games without a goal, the bosses have to start seriously looking at the managerial position again.

Granted they weren't expected to beat Liverpool but against a struggling Villa and even last night with the team that started they should have taken care of a struggling Wolves outfit.

After commanding the first 20 minutes, they allowed Wolves to score first and once again it became unlikely for them to equalize with the impotent offense once Wolves started to defend en-masse.

We have seen this all too often before and it needs a stronger man at the helm.

This doesn't excuse the 7 who were given the opportunity, rightly or wrongly, to impress, what happened was quite the opposite, they are nearer the last chance saloon than ever before.

These are highly paid dullards and lummoxes, as for that goalie, no wonder no-one else wanted the prick. Felt a tad sorry for Dibling, having them round him, and then ignominiously subbed for Ndiaye.

After this defeatest cup run, it'll be interesting to see how the board reacts if he keeps not playing dibling after “yelling” at the need of him all summer. Because it's clear the message for the fringe players is he doesn't trust them.

Or does he really think that by only using them in a Tuesday night cup run they'll feel important? Moyes said a short time ago about Grealish, “he is better than I thought he was” or something very similar. So is now Jack gonna save Dave?

The only reason for that experimentation last night that makes sense to me is that Moyes wasn't arsed about winning it, and that pisses me off.

Last season, or the season before, when we were flirting with relegation, I could accept it. But with the team we can put out now, that was criminal.

But Seamus at left back? He can't get the nod in his natural position anymore! Is Aznou going to be a member of the first team squad or have we signed the new Per Krøldrup?

As for Travers (starting to look like that should be Travers-T!), McNeil, Iroegbunam and Alcaraz -- you've done yourselves and your Gaffer no favours.

Travers isn't the answer to Pickford; Begovic or Virginia were much better -- why he was brought in is beyond anyone given his record of teams played for.

This team was down to Moyes and he screwed right up with replacing over half a team. Giving 7 the chance to prove themselves proved too much.

My second thought was that, even after all these years, he still doesn't truly get Everton (maybe I'm wrong, because he got clapped out of Goodison when he left for Man Utd, like he had helped to put Everton on the map).

And my third thought was that, if Sean Dyche had said some of the things Moyes said about last night's game, there would have been a queue of people waiting to slaughter him.

I didn't go to Anfield on Saturday but I think I was right about the first song being the one that laughs at our disgraceful record of having not won a trophy for 30 fucking years! Even the team captain was talking about this and then, lo and behold, our manager made seven changes, and we limped out of another cup.

I honestly feel like we are stuck in a time warp but, like someone has said, if Moyes can get us in the Europa Conference League, he's been around the block in that competition.

One of the key reasons we lost against Leeds was the 'missing Alcaraz' and it happened again last night. Just before their first goal last night Alcaraz suddenly realised he was the right wing attacker and suddenly ran forward from the left edge of the goal area to intercept the quickly arriving Wolves player but it was too late and less than 1 minute later they scored. Before that he played correctly in his assigned area challenging the opposition and making it difficult for them to advance into our half.

The two other factors were the nonsensical aimless heading forward from midfield and defence to no one causing our players to chase for the ball. The third factor was Tim trying to show how cool and talented he was by inaccurately flicking and heading the ball confusing our players who were expecting his passes.

His terrible shot said it all.

I really think Alcaraz is good but his heart only wants to attack bearable if he scores often but he is not.

The clock on his Everton career has started ticking.

In terms of Moyes's future I think it will only have a real impact if it interrupts our decent form in the league. I read something saying that since Moyes arrived we are 5th in terms of points won in the league. That's an impressive feat for this squad though of course last season's form won't count for much if we start dropping down the table.

The best way to move on is to beat West Ham and Crystal Palace. Beto and Barry have been disappointing, one of them needs to grab hold of that striker's shirt and start making some impact.

Alcaraz is a decent player, one of the few in our team who looks like he wants to score a goal.

His off-the-ball work needs improving. I can see Moyes not using him now that he bought Dewsbury-Hall. There is room for both in the team.

Last night, Tim Iroegbunam was awful from start to finish. It looked like Garner was a one-man midfield.

Just so disappointed with the performance and lack of tactical nous.

I almost spat my tea out listening to Moyes. Why did he change the line-up? "No real reason." What does that even mean? Hardly sounds like he viewed the game as important if he doesn't even have a justification for changing the team.

Beyond that, he elaborates when pushed and said, "The team have been playing at a really good level and it was a chance to see if others could join it."

So just analyze this statement. Key words here being "chance" and "if". So how was this one off must win cup match a "chance" to experiment? That implies he saw it as meaningless or unimportant. An occasion when he could roll the dice without fearing consequences.

Secondly he didn't say he believed the incoming players "would" or even "could" reach the level of the starters. He merely wanted to see "if" they could. So he had no idea and was just curious. Maybe they'd be good, maybe they'd be crap. Now he knows the answer.

So in other words, he is saying he didn't care about the game. It was a free hit to gamble and have some fun, test his curiosity and see what happened. Does that sound anything close to Nil Satis Nisi Optimum? John Moores must be turning in his grave.

He used it to rest some players and keep a few happy with a run out. The result was never of interest.

You shouldn't be. Moyes is who he is -- a builder who prioritizes club depth and a solid league position. That's the job he was hired to do (and has done very well IMO).

He has never been much interested in silverware. Never will be. Anybody expecting different is kidding themselves. Monumentally frustrating though that may be for us supporters, it's the way it is now. Hopefully the new manager who will inevitably replace Moyes after next season prioritizes the trophies we crave.

Sam #14, absolutely right but generally ignored in the criticism of Moyes. I expected McNeil to come out like a house afire. Instead he just drifted around in a daze. Dewsbury-Hall was gifted a keeper blunder and froze, couldn't make a decision, wound up losing the ball. Alcaraz horribly botched a crucial pass. And at the end Ndiaye bungled a routine touch and threw away our best chance.

Moyes deserves every word he is hearing, but when quality players butcher simple tasks, that's not the manager's fault.

I've had an image since last night of Moyes with that self-satisfied smile plastered on his face when we finished 4th. It mattered very little to me at the time as I would much rather win something. Don't really care about CL. Davey boy thought he'd won the lottery.

Just win a feckin trophy and give us at least one day to feckin remember.

Absolute dogshit from the manager these last few days. Piss poor. Crap. Shote.

We are one-dimensional with everything seemingly having to be played through Grealish. Grealish is good but he has been doubled up on in the last few games.

And finally, what the hell was Moyes at playing Seamus as a left-back when we had two on the bench???

I didn't want him back but, by and large, he's done a decent job. But he has still to win at Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal in all the years he has been with the club.

Why? Because he shits himself every time we visit those clubs... and we had some decent Everton teams during his first stint.

Lose to West Ham on Monday and someone should be on the phone to Nuno Espirito Santo asking him to become the next Blues coach before West Ham pinch him. He is a coach whose teams play really good football and he doesn't crap himself when visiting the big boys' stadiums. Something Moyes has done his whole managerial career.

That team was woeful, unbalanced and lacking in talent.

No way are we winning anything this season or any season with the dour jock, he just doesn't learn does he... binned by every other team he's managed bar us.

I fucking give in, I really do.

When he first came, I thought there may be a footballer in there, but he has definitely upped sticks and done a runner, something Tim rarely does.

Tim needs an Iroegboot out of the door next window!

I believe all 3 of them are good players, and would have been good enough to beat Wolves had they been getting regular game time, even if only from the bench. However, throwing all 3 of them in at once with no match sharpness between them was very unlikely to work.

Use your squad, keep your players fit, involved and motivated, and show the fans you've got ideas and plans. These are the basics of management yet 62-year-old, highly-experienced Moyes has completely failed in all these aspects in the last 3 games.

And there goes our best chance of a trophy for this season.

That first paragraph is how I see it, Mike A. Moyes putting on his subs with 4 minutes to go whilst chasing the game definitely wouldn't go down well with a lot of the squad.

Most managers who make subs with 4 minutes remaining usually do it to close out the game when they're protecting a lead, and I'm certain this is what a few very frustrated players will have been muttering between themselves after the derby game.

You don't have to compulsively respond to nearly every post, if you've got nothing to say, try chilling out for a bit.

What do you mean, Moyes is not interested in silverware?
Why would that be true? And more importantly, how could you possibly even remotely know that it is true? It's the silliest thing I've ever read on this site.

Why was Moyes absolutely beaming from ear to ear when he won the Europa Conference League. What was that about?

Please, I can't wait to hear your convoluted and over-explained response. Haha!

"Mike Gaynes, You don't have to compulsively respond to nearly every post, if you've got nothing to say, try chilling out for a bit".

Wow! Mike makes just one post responding to the topic in hand, in which he does actually have something to say. Hardly responding to nearly every post!

Maybe Claus Thomsen? Carl Tiler?

Are you of sufficient vintage to have seen Ian Wilson in his glacial prime?

That's what it means to win a trophy, what's the point in following any football team if you don't want to win a cup every season?

Not sure he was as slow as Dwight though?

I absolutely loved watching us win the FA Cup in 84, my favourite moment as an Everton fan. I can't even remember where we finished that season but nothing beats winning a trophy and watching the enjoyment it brought to the fans.

What's the point in finishing 10th, 12th, whatever? No one remembers that... but I'll never ever forget that first trophy I saw us win in 1984.

The German word for slow is Schneiderlin.

Could be wrong but I think we finished 7th that season.

Perhaps that's why we developed a fixation with finishing 7th under Moyes Mk 1?

A raft of changes, with players nowhere near it, and against a side badly out of sorts.

Oh for playing the strongest 11, getting the crowd on their backs, and then taking key players off from a position of strength.

If you want something, you've got to play a team that looks strong enough to win each hurdle. 30 years this shit has been going on.

Lost revenue and a big nighttime cup game at Bramley-Moore Dock, you idiot.

And it will not have gone down well with our new owners. They are businessmen.

I'm delighted with the Dibling signing, to be honest, Sean. Young and full of potential in a position we needed filling. But who would you drop to make way for him right now?

His time will come but, for me, Grealish, Ndiaye and Dewsbury-Hall must start every game.

The only way Dibling gets in for me is if Ndiaye plays up front, and Moyes will never do that (unfortunately in my opinion -- I think that's worth a go).

We have been relegation dodgers for so long that our managers don't want any cup runs distracting us from staying in the bread-and-butter Premier League at all costs.

I don't think Moyes wanted to give the squad players a chance. He just couldn't resist the urge to save his better players for the West Ham game.

Getting knocked out of the League Cup won't get a manager sacked. But losing league games, even this early in the season, will. If we beat West Ham and Crystal Palace, then this will all be a distant memory.

Moyes knows our squad is still too thin to sustain cup runs and a decent league position with an outside chance of a European place. So the Premier League comes first until we can bolster the squad in January. Budget allowing, of course.

It also tells us why most of them are sat on the bench.

When David Moyes arrived first time round, he had a job on his hands. First thing he determined to do was remove the label "Crisis Club Everton". He certainly did that. He restored pride and and made some pretty astute signings. David Moyes moulded them into his team. For me and others, it went on too long, but that's my opinion.

He came back for Part Two and restored pride and eased an even bigger crisis. Now it's different. David  Moyes will not be moulding his team. I know this is naive but I actually don't know how it works. How much say does he have in transfers? What is our model? Are the players bought and given to Moyes to make a team out of or does he state his strategy and say what he needs?

Right now it looks to me that Moyes has a number of players he doesn't like or rate and against Wolves he made his point. They are not his team and to some extent, it seems, they are not his responsibility.

There is a reasonable chance that the Wolves game was his last chance to ever win a domestic trophy and to leave Everton with love and respect. He had loads of goodwill and nothing to lose. For an adept and experienced manager, he had a relatively easy job without too much pressure. It's a bit tougher now.

Keep the rest of the team the same and I think it would have won and if needed, you always have Barry or Beto or both to bring on second half.

And that would actually be the other thing worth trying. Barry looks lost as a one up front and I think it is poor scouting to have chosen him for this thankless role. Him and Beto together might just make both of them look better.

He left and went to a lucrative post at Man Utd then to Real Sociedad then to Sunderland where he did nothing but did improve West Ham for a short while.

The bottom line is he is past his prime although, like all managers, they usually have some effect for a few games like he did here last season.

The new stadium has created some euphoria and the win against Brighton gave us al some hope things were changing.

Alas it appears we are back to square one with Moyes and he probably won't change.

I cannot believe his approach to the last 2 games... absolutely shocking.

You also don't have to do it the same every match, so in one match Dibling might be on the bench but come on for 25-30 minutes, in another that role might be Ndiaye, and another day it might be Grealish that comes on to ‘finish' the game.

The mindset that there is a ‘best' XI and that everyone else is a weakness is what is costing us at the moment. The big clubs certainly don't treat it like that and Arteta is now openly talking about his ‘finishers' being the important players who have the most effect on a result.

Involve as many of the players as possible, every game. Make them feel included, invested and sharp. Make proactive substitutions that positively affect the game with enough time for those players to actually do something.

Reading the last two paragraphs of your very good post, I think you are asking too much from Moyes, far too much!

Watching him speak after the last couple of games has been depressing.

Moreover, to Mike's point is that every change is also just like for like. Opposition don't get confused by us like we were against our neighbours when they rotated to get into the spaces behind our midfield.

I don't recall a change of shape once and the only positive sub came against Leeds.

Kepa, White, Saliba Mosquera, Lewis-Skelly, Norgaard, Merino, Nwaneri Saka, Eze, Martinelli.

And while there are a couple of true first teamers in there, they also have Jesus, Havertz and Hincapie out injured.

They need these riches to compete in the Champions League, but we don't do that so cups should not be for reserve teams, because ours is nothing close to being good enough.

In the meantime, he will continue to depress and frustrate fans as he makes the gradual (too gradual?) changes involved in stabilising the club.

In truth, the state of the squad and the state of the club is also depressing and frustrating. We need another window or two to sort that out.

That will coincide with the arrival of a new man – arriving at a point where money has been spent and the good young players have bedded in. There's plenty to look forward to, I expect, but very little of it is on a short-term horizon.

What a club to support.

I was agreeing completely with you, but the absolute basics of modern squad management are too much for Moyes, he belongs to the past.

What a player he looks. Reads the game, quick, composed, and looks a specimen. He even hit the bar. For a kid that young to play in that position at his age and have that nous already.

If they go out of the Europa before the end of January, I hope our scouting team are aware of him before the big fish pounce. Just what we need.

The boy from Rangers we were linked with scored. Didn't play great but really good movement for his goal.

I know I am going back a bit, after all I am an old arse, we sent scouts to Southend, and they came back with Brett Angell. What a player he wasn't. Yet failed to notice Stan Collymore playing for the same team at the same time.

I arrest my case M'Lud ! :-)

This lad would remind you a bit of Raphael Marquez of Barca and a bit of Valderama with his stature though he looks like he has more of an engine than those.

We can put out a decent XI, but there is a drop off. For what it's, worth the team on Tuesday should still have been good enough to beat Wolves. But against top teams you need everyone fit and at it. Even then they can make 5 game changing subs, whilst we can offer fresh legs -- but not major game winners, if the quality has started.

I get the feeling you don't like Moyes, and you're totally entitled to your opinion, but I also get the feeling you'd have Dyche back in a heartbeat.

Now correct if I'm wrong but Dyche served up some of the worst football I've seen in 60 years of going home and away to watch Everton, and by god that's saying something.

The man was an arrogant bully -- I've had that off a very good source who works at the club. I for one was delighted when he was sacked, and he didn't resign as you've previously stated.

And I really don't think I'm alone in stating my dislike of the man.

Oh and by the way I'm no lover of Moyes but the difference between them is night and day.

You have always had concerns regarding Moyes's ability to manage a squad. Which seem to have been right.

It is no coincidence that we leak goals like a sieve when Keane is playing, Granted he has done better this season but still makes mistakes through a lack of concentration.

Patto has been sussed by a few different managers as not being up to Prem standards.

And as for dropping Ndiaye for Dibling the mind boggles.

Um, excuse me, did you say, without Beto? Surely you are stretching the bounds of reality with mentioning that means name aren't you? We have been calling for Barry to play because Beto has been so bad, even pre-season. So the others you mentioned, yes, but Beto?

So you want the old, drop him play the other, then, drop him, and then play the other you dropped him for? How about dropping the fucking idiot that bought Barry and didn't buy a right full back. And as far as I can make out, we still don't have a right-footed right winger because I'm sure Dibling is left-footed.

Bayern, Real Madrid. Barca, Milan and at least 8 Premier League teams are currently circling him. Kid is a star.

Based on those results, he's gonna be around for a while.

He stays loyal to his players, but in some ways too loyal. Too many times in the past he has had to be crippled by injuries to try out new things with new faces. I remember how long it took him to pick Leighton Baines at left back for instance.

I would bet my house that we'll never win a trophy with him and I'm sure I'll be pilloried for not being grateful for the mediocrity. I want a manager that makes me want to watch Everton and I'm afraid he'll never be it. I spoke on here years ago about I couldn't wait for him to go during his last stint. The problem is that following Dyche, people will swallow anything and as others have said, while he keeps us out of the bottom six, he'll see his contract out and for that I cannot wait.

"I remember how long it took him to pick Leighton Baines at left back for instance."

Might want to check those memory cells, because Moyes picked Bainesy from the moment he was available. Bainesy signed for Everton on 7 August 2007, carrying a minor injury. He was out of the squad for three games and then, starting 25 August, started 7 of the next 8. But he was badly injured at Derby and struggled the rest of the season to win back his job from the brilliant Lescott.

That aside, I mostly agree with you re Moyes's conservatism and predictability. The fact is, however, that we don't yet have the squad that can compete for Europe and silverware. I think it's Moyes's job to build that squad. And when the job is done (2027?), somebody else will be installed to make good use of it.

TFG also own Roma and their results paint a different picture, which will not go unnoticed. I think that Moyes is already aware of all this and has the comfort of a payout.

If he can keep Bramley-Moore Dock going he might survive longer; since his success at filling the London Stadium, I believe that was one of the reasons he was appointed.

In Travers we have bought a liability who if Pickford is fit should be nowhere the starting 11.

This summer, he somehow convinced Jack Grealish to sign for us, and also brought in Kiernan Dewsbury Hall -- in my view, two very good signings and a huge improvement in quality.

He has also had to start the season without his best defender, and not only his best defender, also his quickest defender. So not having Branthwaite's pace which would allow our back 4 to play higher up the pitch.

I think some posters didn't want Moyes back at any price and were only waiting for a slip-up to say "I told you I was right".

He is also getting results with a very average centre-forward and a kid who at present doesn't look ready for Premier League football. He has also had to play a few games without his 1st choice left-back, but of course to his critics that's just brushed aside.

Maybe we need to look at some of the clips from a couple of his predecessors namely Dyche, Lampard and Benitez and compare results to see the shit show he had to deal with when he arrived.

How about going over his record this season which is what he'll be regarded on, especially after the last two games. If he's going to be around for quite a while, he'd better start getting those points hauled in quickly.

You seem to know those Yankee owners better than most on here so I doubt they'll put up with him very long unless he does.

But - I will say this. If you did a survey of every centre half that has had to mark him or Barry this season which one they would prefer not to have to mark I would lay odds every one of them would say Beto.

From what I have seen of Barry I would say he is less suited for the premier league than Chermiti.

So if we are going to play a conventional centre forward it’s still Beto for me. As for the alternative of playing Ndiaye in that spot I think it could work but not until we get Branthwaite back and can play further up the pitch.

As for Moyes, I have stated on here that I think he is a different proposition this time round but after his comments before the derby and since I think I may have got that wrong also.

He is on trial with me on Monday.

Although it's a long time ago, I'm afraid you are wrong and Mark @76 is right.

It took him 12 months to form Jagielka, Lescott and Baines as a defensive set-up.

So from when they were all together at the club together - 2007-2009. It took him until December 2008 to play all 3 in their best positions together. (After the Aston Villa, Ashley Young game)

It's no coincidence that when this happened we kept an abundance of clean sheets, lost just 3 games conceding 12 goals in 22 games and got to an FA Cup final.

Prior that we'd been dumped out of the Europa League at the first opportunity, lost 6 in the league and conceded 25 (in 16 games).

So for all the good work that was done getting these players into the club. He had to stumble his way to picking them all together and then when he does we hit Champions League places form. We then lose Lescott that summer and therefore break up what is arguably the makings of one of the most talented defensive units in Europe, full of pace, creativity, goals and outstanding defensive capability.

A missed opportunity for me as that was a squad of players capable of challenging for Champions League places but didn't because he started 2008 with lacklustre recruitment and a refusal to play the best players in their best positions.

But one thing we did learn this week: if Pickford gets an injury, we are dead in the water.

Moyes seems to me more of a mug man than a cup man.

This season was a blank canvas, fresh start, huge squad turnover, and I thought a great opportunity. I'm seeing old Moyes: poor set-up and tactics against Leeds; poor set-up 1st half (conceded the game) at Anfield; poor selection and set-up at Wolves in the Carabao Cup.

It's been a very mixed bag. The next few results determine whether we're looking up or down. The failure to address the squad shortcomings in the Summer (full-backs, centre-midfield, centre-forward) and some questionable recruitment, will hang over us all season.

Mr Moyes needs to take a long hard look in the mirror. I think he will be given time by TFG, I think he earned that last season, but he won't be given a free pass and at the moment I think he's slowly writing his own P45. I hope he's not too stubborn to see it himself.

Dumped out of cups and never a hope of winning at Anfield.

(Or Stamford Bridge, Emirates, Old Trafford.)

That's it to sum it up. He could manage Everton for 100 years and we'd still never win at Anfield.

I think you make a very fair defence of Moyes and some of your points are well made. However, I don't understand your point on posters wanting to be proved right.

I suspect Moyes is only here as a transitory manager and, if he does well enough, he will see out his contract; if he doesn't fulfil the owners' objectives, then he will probably be let go sooner.

I suspect that, even after Moyes is gone, those who wanted what they would see as an upgrade and those who are staunch supporters will probably hold the same view.

Brian, what really impressed me about Moyes last season was not his 'honeymoon' impact after Dyche, which was expected, but towards the end, after their natural dip, the players went again... even when the objective had been achieved.

Contrast this to say Ancelotti who had a great initial impact then dipped, then got the chequebook out, went on fire again and then went into freefall when left just to coach with what he had. Moyes's form looked to be more sustainable.

I must admit, Brian, though Moyes has irked me since the summer as he really should have capitalized on the feel good factor he created, especially with the investment and new stadium. I don't think he is helping himself in his critics' eyes.

Where I disagree with you is looking at the position Moyes took over as your reference. Don't forget the season before, Dyche had done a remarkable job considering it was arguably one of the worst squads in our recent history and we effectively finished 12th.

Moyes has quality in the shape of Ndiaye, O'Brien, Grealish, Dewsbury-Hall, Dibling, Röhl, and Barry added to that squad and maybe Onana (though a sub mostly) and possibly Calvert-Lewin that he would have wanted to keep. Our best player then, McNeil, can't get a kick now.

Moyes took over at a perfect time. An underperforming squad, a manager who had combusted, whom the fans and players couldn't wait so see the back of, and a new ownership group desperate to make an initial splash. TFG will expect real progress from Moyes this season and I doubt the last campaign will count for much.

We've been fighting the very real threat of relegation for a decade; we finally have a decent end to a season and we're complaining about never winning at the Champions? After Sean Dyche and Frank Lampard, are we really in a desperate hurry to get the chap who got us to mid-table out so fast?

We need a period of calm of 2 to 3 years of just finishing top half, building the squad. In light of that, I think we should cut the manager some slack about recent results.

We still have a very thin squad, we've had to play Michael Keane at centre-back all season and a centre-back at right back, and a midfielder at left-back. If people had been told we'd start this season like that, they would have had a fit. But we can only spend so much money, particularly if as seems to be the intention, we invest in youth.

The problem with youth is it's not ready now, so we can spend £80M and none of those players make the team. From a thin squad that was already massively weakened with all the summer departures, it's going to take 2 to 3 years just to get to a balanced squad, let alone winning at Anfield.

Moyes took over at a perfect time, Conor? Really?

I ain't diminishing the actual effect but the only way was up.The players would have been happy to see a monkey come through the door after years of Dyche straight jacket

Contrast that to Keith Andrews. Takes over when Brentford have continually over performed. Loses all his backroom staff, loses all his goalscorers and captain and because of their ages don't get a Coutinho like premium to re-invest. That bloke is on a hiding to nothing whereas Moyes only had to win a couple of games to be heralded the Moyesiah.

That team had gone ten games and scored two goals. The only way wasn't up; we were in a nose-dive. We didn't have a good squad, we were over-reliant on Doucoure and Calvert-Lewin, both of whom left for nowt.

It's a hospital pass of a job, especially with so many waiting in the wings to seize upon any misstep.

We scored 2 goals because we didn't try to score goals. Ndiaye and Lindstrom were auxiliary full-backs. Dyche's record with attacking players is criminal.

Iwobi has his best season under Lampard, works under Dyche can't score for Toffee, then goes to Fulham and the goals and assists flood back.

Let's be clear: Moyes's actual impact was excellent and better you couldn't have wished for but, if you think Ndiaye only became a player when he met Moyes, then fair play to you.

Of course Moyes can and should do better.

However, I think fans like to kid themselves that we're some sort of sleeping giant that can be awoken simply through the loan of Jack Grealish, some very low spending (which gets positioned as high spending) and some magic tactics.

I still think we'll probably over perform our way to about 9th this season.

Serious crime to me then that we've not taken the cups seriously but that won't be a unilateral Moyes decision FFS that is a club management issue about risk. Obviously TFG think we remain a relegation risk.

Is that really too much to demand?

I've been saying for a while now to anyone who will listen, when we play away from home with Keane in the side, we will concede goals.

Yet there's this misconception that he's had a great start to the season, the real truth is that he hasn't, he's a liability that keeps convincing managers that he's a great pro.

Unfortunately for us, it looks like we are stuck with him for the time being because Jarrad doesn't look like returning anytime soon.

Why should we wait?

Moyes is the master of managing down expectations and all his pals in the media fall for it. Little old Everton should just be happy with their mid table finishes because they could be getting relegated.

Well I’m sorry. I don’t buy it. Of course there have been dreadful times of late and whatever Moyes can deliver may be categorised as an improvement. But I’m not having any manager put their own limitations on Everton Football Club.

I saw it too long with him last time, slowly building towards nothing and his chairman telling the fans about the ‘good times’ we had.

Yes in context they were good times compared to Kendall III, Mike Walker and the dross delivered by Koeman and others. But they were not good times compared to where we should be. Which is at the business end of winning trophies. Why? Because that’s historically where we have always been up until the 1990s.

I don’t want 2 - 3 years of ‘calm’. What does that even mean? You mean not winning anything? I want a manager that comes in and drives us towards success.

But it's also absolutely criminal to use some of those squad players in a cup match, because players in the first team squad who have done well for us (or are big money signings) can't be trusted to put on a show against Wolves?

Is this Schrodinger's squad?

Nuno is expected to be in place before Monday's Premier League match against Everton, having said he has had positive talks with the West Ham board.

Hope it's not the old first game gift from us to Nuno on Monday!