Fans' Campaign to save the Collection
Postings from The People's Forum

Here is a selection of recent posting by Everton fans on The People's Forum in response to Frank Hargreaves's wonderful description of his response to viewing just a small portion of the David France Collection last week.  If you would like to send us your comments on the need for Everton to buy The David France Collection, you can do so by e-mailing or using our Feedback page.

The France Collection....update. Posted by frank hargreaves on November 18, 2004, 9:33 pm User logged in as: frank hargreaves In my mailbox...I have pledges totalling GBP 32,000 and I haven't even moved of this Forum or ToffeeNet. It took about 3 posts and an email to reach this figure. surely we could hit 200k by April ? That's if Liverpool haven't bought it first

The France Collection Posted by top balcony on November 18, 2004, 5:30 pm User logged in as: top balcony really needs to be under the wing of a big not-for profit organisation to secure its long-trem future. Whilst Everton are definately not for profit. It should be a museum or university..the John Moores University with Moores money behind it. It is a big historical Archive and a researchers dream. It also needs to be "live" and able to grow. They would buy into the deal if they knew it would get ongoing support from a number of "patrons" thats where we come in pledging money for the current spend on running costs, and support through the bidding process for EU and lottery monies with maybe matched funding coming from the club. It could not survive with a number of not very rich enthusiasts trying to make money from a still limited interest museum and shop, even if you got some funding for purchase from a grant. the collection would also suffer from insufficiently regulated exposure to the hoy-poloy. Buying in would not be an investment in real terms but would yield a tax break and give you a warm feeling and an invitation to the annual dinner dance. Those who know somebody with influence in the education regeneration game start talking. Those who know Moores or some other millionaire Philanthropist do the same. I will be talking to a mate who`s a "player" in Liverpool Vision tomorrow.Best I can come up with. Sadly I don`t know any millionaire philanthropists but I would give my £1000 for my name on the plaque.

Company Limited by Guarantee... Posted by Dom on November 18, 2004, 4:09 pm, in reply to "frank..." User logged in as: dlefc would probably be the best way to set this up, it was the basis for one of Tom Cannon's proposals and seems to be legally watertight and quite easy to understand. You set up the company with the sole purpose of acquiring the collection, if it doesn't happen within a certain time frame then the company is dissolved.

I don't think that would work, John Posted by NYCblue on November 18, 2004, 3:43 pm, in reply to "frank..." User logged in as: NYCblue To me, this doesn't look like a great money-making scheme. The main thrust of the fund would be to keep it intact and to have it available for Everton and other football fans to view. Making money out of it would be great, but with housing and viewing costs, security, insurance, curator costs - the collection would have to work really hard to earn its keep. I think the idea would be a trust that would hopefully be tax efficient both for itself and donors. Those who donated would get a tax deduction and the trust would be a not-for-profit organisation, that would not get taxed on profits, if any were made. Any money made would be spend on keeping the collection up to date or spent on Everton in the Community or the Former Players Foundation (one of David's other projects), etc. A bit like a museum.

so...in an hour...and with very little effort... Posted by frank hargreaves on November 18, 2004, 3:13 pm User logged in as: frank hargreaves Evertonians have pledged GBP15k for The David France Collection.... That's fcuking tremendous. Its most definitely being pursued as we speak. cheers

thing is... Posted by frank hargreaves on November 18, 2004, 2:57 pm, in reply to "The David France collection.........Query ??" User logged in as: frank hargreaves He's ill... he wants a payment to secure the collection by April...and the rest to follow (possibly 6 months). The collection has been up for sale and offered to Everton for nearly 2 years....

The David France collection.........Query ?? Posted by Mike H on November 18, 2004, 2:51 pm User logged in as: Mike H *If* as suggested, the collection is to be bought by individuals and then be put on show as some form of long term(?) commercial venture, then does the collection have to be paid for up front or could some long term lease/agreement be made with a % of royalties going to Dr. France's estate be more applicable ??..

in excess of £1M - valuation from Sotheby's .. Posted by Nick W on November 18, 2004, 2:44 pm, in reply to "Out of interest Frank..............." User logged in as: Nick W ..although the main financial interest in the Collection is stuff which is relevant to other clubs - Newton Heath/MUFC's first programme, the ledgers detailing the creation of LFC. There's also some really early EFC v Celtic game stuff which would be of interest to them. If it were split up, the majority of it would go to EFC enthusiasts (as the bulk is of interest only to Evertonians). However, there are a number of socially very important pieces that would be snapped up by enthusiasts of the other club involved. EFC should be ashamed of themselves for declining the purchase the first time round (earlier this year).

in answer to some of the queries... Posted by frank hargreaves on November 18, 2004, 2:33 pm User logged in as: frank hargreaves Lottery/Heritage Funding Apparently in a joint venture Liverpool City Council and Everton were going to put in a bid. Now they are not because they don't think it would succeed. Having written bids for both Lottery, Heritage and various tranches of EU money and having dealt with Government office in the past. I KNOW I could absolutely guarantee this funding being granted. If anybody were ever arsed to try. Not all of it.. but a considerable match. As somebody below has already stated the lottery people paid nearly 20mill for Churchill's papers. Bill Kenwright My interest in the David France collection has nothing to do with Everton or any personality or issue at the club. Its just about me being an Evertonian. No more, no less. Having seen some of the items I will state here and now without fear of any come back... If the person/people who end up owning this collection do not manage to generate income from it they are complete and utter imbeciles. This income could be used for anything Youth Academy, Football in the Community, various other schemes. The Everton v Newton Heath Programme has a value of approx GBP 150,000.....tell me there are not people out there who would buy framed facsimile's for a couple of quid a pop. That.s small time stuff. Never the less.... ...ah fuck it....Its ace...it needs keeping together. People who have more interest in memorabilia and social history deserve to see this stuff...its fucking ace !! Lets hope something can be sorted.

Re: the France Collection and making it possible..... Posted by Woolyback Exile on November 18, 2004, 1:52 pm User logged in as: Woolyback Exile I can well believe that the dunces at the club have not covered all the angles, but here are a few suggestions.... 50% of the costs of employing an archivist can be covered by EU funding under the Objective 1 scheme, with monies coming out of the European Social Fund. 50% OF THE COSTS OF housing the collection may be eligible for EU funding under the Objective 1 scheme, with monies coming out of the European Regional Development Fund. Turn the collection into a charitable foundation and 30% of donations can be reclaimed by the club from the Treasury. Have the collection exhibited in Liverpool but linked to the national football museum in Preston, so as to have more leverage with North West bodies and the FA to help garner funds. Maybe the national Football museum can exhibit and display items not displayed at the Main site on Merseyside. Make a concrete case, backed by wide political support, that the National Lottery Heritage fund make a massive donation to cover the full costs of buying it from David France (after all if Winston Churchill's grandkids can trouser the best part of £20 million for his archive (which were mainly made up of Government papers anyway) then £1 million should be well able to be levered out of them.

possible solution..... Posted by Tony on November 18, 2004, 1:57 pm, in reply to "Three things are needed" User logged in as: Tony supporters buy and own it. We offer it to the club on a long term loan, as per lots of other works of art etc, to place on the shelves of the trophy room, , they house and look after it, insure it etc. The fans, on the whole, maintain the collection by buying other items that come to light, again offering to the club as a long term loan.

Fourth (and other thoughts) Posted by Neil F on November 18, 2004, 1:58 pm, in reply to "Three things are needed" User logged in as: Neil F Less immediately pressing, since the urgent need is to secure the safety and integrity of the collection, but in the long term, a proper museum for display and interpretation (capital costs plus staffing/running/exhibitions costs) would be desirable. Heritage Lottery Funds are available for purchases and capital costs, but not available for running (including staff) costs so there would need to be some sort of covenant or means of generating money to cover the museum as well as the expense of properly caring for the reserve collections. The museum, if either charging or via cafe/shop could generate income, but the way museums are in this country at the moment many struggle to survive without external (mostly local or national) governmental funding. (I worked in museums for 7 years so I know a little about how they work). Would this be something that NMGM would be interested in, possibly with City of Culture money? Or would there need to be comparable funding for a Liverpool FC museum (even if they don't have access to this wondrous collection). Don't Liverpool already have a museum of sorts? Just first rambling thoughts on something on here that I finally know something about! N

I sent a non-Evertonian mate of mine.... Posted by DaveyG on November 18, 2004, 2:04 pm, in reply to "SERIOUS POLL" User logged in as: daveyg ...a copy of what you posted last night along with my reservations about Everton Football Club buying it (he's a Lincoln supporter and has been quite interested in all the shenanigans, as I think they have a Supporter's Trust thing going there) Here's his reply :- "Absolutely astonishing. I would have thought it's value as a social document justifies it's purchase by somebody far more responsible than the current Everton FC board ..surely the British museum should be interested? Purely as a football fan, I would definitely be interested in going to see such a collection if it were on display anywhere - it sounds fantastic" (I'm not sure that he has a grand to spare though !) DG

SERIOUS POLL Posted by frank hargreaves on November 18, 2004, 1:19 pm User logged in as: frank hargreaves Would you say there were 200 Evertonians willing to give GBP 1,000 to secure the David France Collection ? Theres also an email above if anybody would like to pledge such (or any amount). Whatever your opinion on the collection. If we could just try and keep this a bit serious for a minute. cheers its achievable  yes  no Poll Results its achievable   Votes yes  60% 85 no  40% 57 142 votes total

To back up Ray's declaration about the France Collection. Posted by Dave Lennon on November 18, 2004, 1:14 pm User logged in as: Dave Lennon There must be some sort of big fancy rule set in stone that the collection stays in the hands of a fan's trust and no part is ever sold to the club or under it's control. I have visions of the year 2087....when the next Rooney we produce is being sold to Tampa United by Kenwright's brain, held in suspended animation in a big jug, just a short walk from where the boy's pen used to be........."It broke all our hearts but the lad wanted to go and so we concluded the deal as it was either take the generous offer that Tampa United had scaled down - or part with the France collection which we so cherish at this great club of ours.....the most passionately supported club in the galaxy.....hopefully things will look up in the future though as we are still in talks with the Fortress people on a daily basis...etc"