Where is the Money going???

Agree with you100% Thomas, there are thousands of blues who would love to know where the money has gone to,sadly it seems this shitty situation is here to stay for the forseeable while we have this incompetent buffoon at the helm!

I would also be curious to know.

(awaits "Boooooo!! Slavering sheep, dog hound snarling cage rattles hawk swoops Kenwright-hating snarling ewes bred with..er..crocs to become drooling sheep-crocs" etc blah).

Stokes owner is loaded, we have the poorest chairman in the premier league. He has no cash and the rest of the board wont put any money in.

Thomas, I agree with what you have written. At this present moment in time, can we be classed as a big club anymore? Well the way we are competing in the transfer market the answer is a BIG NO!!! We are being treated like mugs by the board, not just Kenwright.

I know it's only two games in with no wins but we look very ordinary. Top 4? ? not a chance in hell judging by this start! Moyes's hands are tied, wheeling and dealing! It's time to make a stand: SACK THE BOARD!

Oo...you've done it now Thomas and you, EJ; the Alan's will be after you

I just wish the alleged jounalists who infest the Red Echo, Daily Post and Radios City and Merseyside would grow some balls and ask similar questions on air and in print of this Board of incompetents. What's it matter if you're banned from Finch Farm as a result - over to you, Mssrs Prentice, Jackson et al.

Where is the money going???
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wages.

Expenditure at football clubs is not just fees, but wages.

Fees are usually not paid in one go; but over two-three years. In Italy, they are usually paid over the period of a contract.

Eg: Buy a player for £10 million, and pay him £50k a week. That would amount to £2.5 million a year fee for 4 years; and £2.5 million a year wages. Half and half - £5 million a year.

On that basis, Everton has spent most this pre-season on wages. Arteta's pay rise amounts to over a £1 million a year. Whereas the £900k fee for Gueye is probably £300K a year. Then we pay wages - what? £1 million a year? ...£1.3 million/yr for Gueye.

I don't know the wages, but I guess Mucha is a touch pricier than Nash, and wages of Silva are paid by loss of Senderos, and money (maybe £750K a year) has been freed up from loss of Gosling. But that may have funded pay rises to likes of Baines.

This also why sending Yobo out on loan may make financial sense. We save £2 million-plus in wages. That would get a young LB on £25k a week (£1.3 million a year), and a £3 million fee (about £1 million a year over three years).

Still few days to go for transfers. Here's hoping yet another last minute rush.

Everyone else - almost - is spending money that the Club doesn't make. We are not. So we are hamstrung.

What money? We have been borrowing on the strength of future money for so long, I think we have come full circle and lapped ourselves.

What a bizarre question. It takes about 1 minute of research to understand "where the money is going".

Everton is currently spending about 65% of its £80m turnover on players' wages.

A quick calculation will reveal that leaves roughly £28m to cover all other salaries, upkeep of stadium and training ground, travelling, marketing, servicing a large overdraft, commissions to agents & others and of course tax.

And given our current model of buying, moulding & retaining good players, our wages costs will only increase (a la Arteta, Pienaar, Rodwell, Baines etc etc). Even in exceptional circumstances such as the sale of Lescott, we purchased 4 players instead and took on 4 significant salaries.

It is one thing to moan about the "lack of investment" but just plain stupid questions to ask questions of seemingly sinister revelation such as where's all the money going.

Everton FC's annual accounts are also a matter of public record. There is no mystery, nothing sinister, nothing revelatory. It is the price we are paying to maintain our competitiveness in the absence of 60,000 attendances, gargantuan sponsorship, annual champions league or sugar daddy.

Under the circumstances the club is making a more than decent fist of balancing prudence & stability with on-field competitiveness. Don't forget, our gates & turnover ranks only halfway in the premier league. I suggest we have more reasons to be grateful than curious.

Those of a curious, content-free or obtuse disposition can look back now :)

Where have you guys been for the last 10 years? Lending to pay off loans to pay off even older loans is what Billy K does best. We're the only club in Premiership history not to have attracted investment. Well i suppose we do only average 35,000 a week, have a rich history and big potential. Who'd want a piece of that when you can have Sunderland, City, Blackburn or Villa?

For the BK lovers I'll re-phrase that:

For the last 10 years BK's been running a financially sound operation, keeping us within "our means".

...I can't wait till we slump to 13th before the inevitable superb last 15 games of the season, were we almost hit 4th. But alas settle for 7th and back slapping all round. "Well Done", "Next year we'll have 4th", "if it wasn't for...".

Bring on the Champagne well done Billy K and the board for another fine season of nothing.

Roll on another summer of no transfers and praying for bigger clubs to not lure away our best players.

NIL SATIS NISI OPTIMUM

Tony - post 7.

If it wasn't so close to the truth your post would have been extremely funny.

Getting outspent by the Stoke Citys of this world is fucking embarrassing.

Kenwright has long outstayed his welcome. The sooner he slings his hook the better,and takes his equally useless board with him. Can anyone fill me in exactly whats the point of Jon Woods?

But I fear we are stuck with Kenwright,his bullshit and massive ego for some time to come. I for one am utterly sick of this club being skint and the people at the top doing fuck all about it.

Where's the money going?

Well it's just possible that BK thinks he's doing fine, that everything adds up perfectly well and we don't owe anyone a penny.

I'll explain.

Here's one possible reason for our financial situation that I believe has NEVER been discussed,

I'm talking about Dyscalculia - something I actually 'suffer' with myself.

Dyscalculia is a specific learning problem concerned with basic numerical skills. It is thought to effect between '3 and 6 per cent of the population.

People with dyscalculia have problems understanding the meaning of numerals, with sequencing numbers and problems with other mathematical processes such as addition, subtraction, multiplication etc.

When I discovered this condition existed, I was of course delighted - going as I did in an instant from 'thick at maths' to being 'a dyscalculic'

Dyslexics will know exactly what I mean, it must have been great for them when that was invent....I mean erm..discovered.

Suddenly they weren't thick and teachers had to stop saying "You're a pudding lad, what are you!? An APE could write better than that!"

Same with A.D.D probably.

"Hey my kid ISN'T an annoying little red-faced fuck, who needs a crack on the arse, but won't get one coz I'm a lazy-arsed modern parent - he's got A.D.D! Ritalins all round!"

I get some stick from those who think I'm unfair when it comes to BK, but as you can see, I've tried to find EVERY possible excuse/reason for why our finances look like they are controlled by....well..AN APE!

isn't it obvious? It's lining Luvvie Bill's back pocket. He is bleeding the club dry. As stated above, how else can crap clubs like West Ham, Stoke, Wigan be bidding for £10M players, when we are just looking for loans or Bosmans?

EJ,
I believe that long ago my species and the likes of Pan troglodytes and Gorilla gorilla shared a common ancestor
Please don't compare Bill Kenwright to an ape - bit harsh on apes, what?

To the players and their agents, I'm afraid.

It's all explained by smoke and mirrors didn't you know!!

Seriously, Alan Kirwan is correct in saying it is a matter of public record and you can see where the money is going in the main.

Every company or club has a bit of "creative" accounting but that would not account for a great deal.

The simple answer id that Moyes and the players have behaved like a top club but the board haven't.

They have no business plan long or short term.

The marketing and merchandising is nothing short of pathetic.

We have been servicing Kenwright's self made debts for numerous years added to which that half brained DK project cost us 4 million in "expert's fees".

In truth we are about 30 million behind Spurs in Commercial income and they have a smaller capacity than us.

Kenwright refuses to have rights issue which would inject fresh money into the club.

As long as Moyes keeps producing Rabbits out of hats and the supporters do not rise up Kenwright is looking smooth.

The unfortunate thing is when it all comes home to roost and we have a bad season we will be in shit street.

How long can he get away with having no transfer kitty?
Probably about as long as it takes to go from 5th to 17th.

There was a report last season into Everton's finances and it made sobering reading, as it stands without a new stadium or a revamped GP, we will stand still with revenue streams, while expenditure is increasing quite sharply.

Posters are slagging Kenwright because he's not wealthy, which is both childish & stupid, a bit like a 10 year girl throwing a tantrum because Abigail's dad bought her a horse and I hate you cos I haven't got one. Seriously gents grow up. Kenwright has gone on record ad infinitum, that we need a billionaire, but there ain't that many around.

What football supporters want is not investment, but a billionaire with more money than sense, to throw money at the club and keep throwing it 'till there's none less.

Managers with ambition leave clubs when they feel that they have taken them as far as they can... .DM is toeing the party line...now that he has a more lucrative contract himself!! Don't forget he held out before signing his present one and Pienar is getting castigated for doing more or less the same thing!! We lost a certain transfer fee on Gosling and when we bring players in we always let some go... most seasons we let MORE go than we sign and we also usually dump our academy players.

This season we have kept more of our squad but we have not really improved it.... I cannot see the team improving on our present position in the premier and I fear that we have joined the mid table sides who settle for premier league safety and 40 points or more.

The games I have watched so far have seen teams like Fulham improve and the likes of Wolves and Blackburn able to compete with ourselves home and away.

Our squad basically has a lot of mediocre standard players with just a sprinkling of invention from Arteta and Pienar.

I expect us to improve and gain mid table status but not much more with the squad we have and no injection of investment cash.... Hope I'm wrong..

This could have something to do with the fact that professional players get paid to play. So maybe some of the money we make goes to the players in order to keep us out of debt. Just a thought.

Seriously though, do you think Kenwright just sits on this money with no ambition to do anything with it? No way. We have to pay our guys while staying out of financial trouble. Another possibility is that it is being saved up to spend on one really good player rather than putting it directly back into the market. I think we can all agree on this little equation: Billy+Heitinga+Distin>Lescott. It's not like we didn't make a profit in terms of players last summer.

I honestly have no complaints about how our money has been handled. I think the club uses it very wisely. We could stand to get some investment, obviously, but the club has done very well with what is available to them.

David # 19.

You are totally wide of the mark.

Very few posters castigate Kenwright for having no personal money in fact very few chairmen put much of their own money in.

The real concern with Kenwright is that he's full of bullshit and cannot take EFC forward.

We do not need a sugar daddy; in fact there is only one in the Prem right now (Abramovich). The Arabs are putting money into City hoping to increase the value of the club not on a "free gift" basis. The Glaziers have put Utd into what they consider to be manageable debt measured against their huge income. Even George and his Buddy although loading their aquisition debt onto LFC have bet that against an increased value of the club. Unfortunately the FSW let them down.

The Spurs and Arsenal routes are totally different being based on good management and fairly sound financial principles especially for football.

IMO We do not need a sugar daddy we need some savvy businessmen with vision instead of the buffoon we have in charge right now.

Kenwright's legacy will be a mountain of debt with nothing to show for it and a wasted decade of opportunity to build on Moyes and the player's achievements.

Also IMO this no money bullshit is one of the factors affecting the players some of whom have pulled their tripe out for years with an inadequate squad to back them up and give them a rest at times.

I agree with both Jay and Alan to a great extent, our finances are what they are. But, irrespective of a sugar daddy ever being found, the fundemental issue is the inability to make the best use of what we have and our opportunities.

Growth in the business activities from maximising marketing opportunities, improved decision-making that focuses on external revenue generation, fewer fuck-ups that cost the club potential transfer revenue (Gosling). Fewer handshake deals.

Everton FC needs to be run sharper from a business perspective and not rely on sales of stars to keep going. That is where many think that the club, and BK, are letting themselves down.

Today's Premier League is not just about success on the field it's about doing the business off it as well.

The lack of resources can be due to primary match day income and expenditure, but increasingly the secondary income is what keeps clubs alive. THAT is where the failure to lead and manage has been so detrimental to the success of the club.

The abject failure to capitalise on overseas players and popularity is not just depressing but disgraceful.

Ask those who shook their heads in disgust at the pre-season games in Australia, to see a mobile trailer selling out of date shirts and a dozen other items... it was pathetic. Laughable even. Is this what we have come to accept from Everton FC?

Stronger, better marketing and deals have to be done. The club MUST represent itself better as a brand to generate income that other clubs do. If we have limited resources from primary activities (Match Day) you MUST maximise other avenues of revenue generation.

This is where and why the club continually fail to perform.

A Kirwin: "It is the price we are paying to maintain our competitiveness in the absence of 60,000 attendances, gargantuan sponsorship, annual Champions League or sugar daddy".

Really? Alan, then please explain why Stoke, Wigan, Brum, Bolton, Burnley, Fulham, Hull, Sunderland, WBA, West Ham and Wolves have all spent more than us this summer?

Please explain why it was said "we had no money" when finishing 14th-17th with a turnover of £45M and less, and yet we still have no money finishing 4th-8th with improved cups runs with an £80M turnover?

Why are we taking out loans each year? What the hell are they for?

Under BK we have consistently had the smallest squad in the Prem, consistently paid one of the lowest wages in the Prem, consistently spent less net or gross on players than every other established Prem team, so how the hell do we have no money each season?

Baring in mind we in BK's time have sold nearly £50M of our academy players Rooney, Jeffers, Ball, Dunne, Cadamarteri, Jevons, this is in effect a £50M profit, where has it gone? So £50M with little outlay, now add this into your heads, Everton have spent £55M net since Prem started, so, when you factor in the above, Everton have spent £5M of the club's money the other £50M coming from the sale of academy players... £5M since 1992!!

So I ask again ? where the hell is the money going?

Jay, I understand the Chelsea/City situation to be the other way around. Abramovich loaned the money whereas the Sheiks are gifting it. Abramovich has since converted his loans to equity but their holding company continues to carry a debt.

I do agree, however, that the only way out of this is to be more commercially savvy. Some of the marketing oversights just blow my mind... the ones we see are usually small but point to a larger problem. The thing is, it's not that bad being in debt if you can service it - but we have a situation where we are in a small amount of debt (relatively) but can't service it without taking further loans.

I do worry that for all the talk of lack of ambition on this site, that this season actually represents a real gamble on our future. That keeping this squad together at a cost can lift us to the promised land and that if it doesn't we've really fked ourselves financially.

Just one other slightly more controversial statement... if you're understanding of finance goes no further than "Bill should fk off so we can get a chairman with loads of money" then can you stop posting on these threads.

It just doesn't work like that.

My understanding of finance goes a bit deeper than that: Bill Kenwright should fuck off so that we can get a chairman with loads of money and more brains.

A beggar has no business running a football club, especially a lying fuckwit like the afore-mentioned chimpanzee.

I have no problem with anyone's opinions.

I can disagree with them as they can with mine

But has anyone else noticed that many Kenwright lovers, actually share will Bill the ability to simply bullshit and invent whatever suits them?

A kind of sleight-of-hand I've mentioned before.

A case of 'fuck the facts, I'll simply MAKE UP whatever suits my agenda'.

Do they think (like Bill) "If I say X, enough will go along with it as won't be looked at too closely".

David Hallwood says..

"Posters are slagging Kenwright because he's not wealthy, which is both childish & stupid, a bit like a 10 year girl throwing a tantrum because Abigail's dad bought her a horse and I hate you cos I haven't got one"

Fact: This is NOT his opinion, he is actually stating this is the (a) reason people are slagging Kenwright.

So...let's put it to the test.

Let's see if David can find one (JUST ONE!) instance of someone (anyone!) slagging Kenwright for THAT reason - that he's not wealthy.

Let's see if he can find one post that says Kenwright's a cunt or a wanker BECAUSE....'he's not wealthy'

David also (like we're all fucking easily bamboozled idiots who are new to this and he has some special secret information we don't) 'inform' us..

"Kenwright has gone on record ad infinitum, that we need a billionaire, but there ain't that many around"

Has he, has he really, how enlightening.

BK has 'gone on record' has he?

Well that's fine then, we can all relax then.

Just like when he 'went on record' about Kings Dock.

And like he 'went on record' about our 'free' ground.

Sorry but posts like this are imo insulting.

They say "I can say this coz I think you're idiots that will go along with it".

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Is this all some kind of joke post to attract people that cant see further than the end of their own nose.

Duh where has the money gone...??

Why dont you look no further than the players wages.

Yes thats right - Arteta will make nearly 20 million fuckin quid over the next 5 years. Do youz all get it now do you???

Hello - Mork calling Orson... Do the math. Do we want to keep our best players or do we want to remain a selling club??

SO yes I applaud Bill Kenwright - because he asked Moyes what he wanted to do. Moyes said to keep Mikky so he made it happen.

To get to the next step - yes we do need a billionaire. And with players making the kind of money Arteta is doing... and Pienaar wants to join him - well its no big suprise is it.

One final point - How many of the players that Stoke CIty and Wigan and Fulham etc bring in will be awarded 75k per week??
If they start to pay that out then they will go the same direction as Portsmouth. AND if Everton spend beyond its means we too will go in the same direction. Did I mention Leeds? No I didn't.

Posters haven't been slaggin off BK for not being wealthy??? Of course they have!! How haven't they??
Everton as a business simply dont make enough money to both sustain themselves and have lots of nice spare cash to throw about. If only BK was a plumber - he'd have loads of spare cash in his arse pockets.. its that simple.

Ped you say..

"Posters haven't been slaggin off BK for not being wealthy??? Of course they have!! How haven't they??"

How HAVEN'T they!?

Er...they haven't in EVERY way!

But fine - prove me dead wrong.

Just find ONE post where someobody says "Bill Kenwright is a wanker BECAUSE...he's not wealthy.

NB: Saying BK doesn't have enough money is NOT saying 'He's a wanker because he doesn't have enough money'

Saying he's a bullshitter is NOT saying he's a bullshitter because he doesn't have enough money.

Saying he's fucking inept is NOT saying he's fucking inept because he doesn't have enough money.

With those ABSOLUTE FACTS in mind - away you go.

(Oh and even though I'm a dyscalculic, I know it's math-S)

Ped , can you tell us idiots why, in your opinion, "Everton as a business simply dont make enough money to both sustain themselves... "? Could the Board/paid executives of the club be doing a wee bit more off-the-field, perhaps?
Ta
p.s., what's a math? Is it like a hustle?

One thing that looks as though it hasn?t been added to this thread in terms of money is this:

Goodison Park ? Sold
Finch Farm ? Sold
Megastore at Goodison ? Sold
Land around the ground (including the car park) ? Sold

So, where the fuck has all that money gone??????

They are just the assets I can think of, anymore feel free to add to the list.

We have no off field assets left because Kenwright has sold them all, and it looks to me the money has disappeared into thin air.

Why is it BK apologists feel the need to discredit any arguments suggesting that he is an imcompetent bafoon, by suggesting we dislike him because he has relatively small personal wealth?
I couldn't give a fuck if he had even less cash than I do -if he was comptetent. If he could attract outside investment and run an executive team which boosted our commercial operations. I would be very happy.

But BK's general reign has consisted of
a) Selling every asset the club has. Land, Training ground, Shops the fucking lot.
b) Borrowing from banks to pay other banks to pay other banks.
c) Lies. Do I need to reel off the quotes?

BTW slightly off subject, but I hope no-one here is thinking about renewing their season ticket next year? BK and his old buddy fat Keith told us that Goodison would be condemmed in two years. You dont want to be forking out all that hard cash just to sit in an "unsafe" environment.

I would love to see the current business model for EFC.

Our marketing is criminal, as illustrated by Christine's comments regarding the merchandising on sale in Australia, very little foresight or hunger in a captive market, which amazes me.

I'm surprised that the bank restructuring the loan from 9-14M isn't demanding that the clubs business model be altered significantly.

In truth we are about £30 million behind Spurs in Commercial income and they have a smaller capacity than us.
--------
Jay; Spurs have the richest fans in the country, and season ticket prices are about 3x those of Everton.

Simple demographics, we will not be as rich as Spurs unless there is some seismic event, like our own Sheikhs or find a dodgy Russian billionaire to treat us as his toy.

One thing that looks as though it hasn?t been added to this thread in terms of money is this:

Goodison Park ? Sold
Finch Farm ? Sold
Megastore at Goodison ? Sold
Land around the ground (including the car park) ? Sold
-------------
I'm sorry; but when, and for how much did we sell the ground?

Because I don't bnelieve we have. I'll stick my neck. I think you have just made that up, or innocently believe what someone has told you.

I could believe we have used our ground as collateral for a loan; but no more. And as we are paying the loan, we kerrp the ground owned by us.

Finally, far from selling training facilities, I "believe" we own two. Finch and the old one, as we haven't sold the land from it yet.

Roberto,

Correct about Goodison but incorrect about Finch Farm. Before its doors had even opened Wyness sold it. We lease it from a company. Yes we still own Bellefield but can't sell it. [rolls eyes]
As for Goodison, it's ours but it's used as collateral.

And finally, yes our ticket prices are (relatively) cheap compared with Spurs. We fail miserably to compete with them in marketing and commercially.

We're not asking for a sheikh or an oil baron. Just someone who knows how to run an international business and executive team. Being a blue who cries at matches doesn't make you qualified to do this.

With regard to my comment that Goodison has been sold, I'll accept that it is secured against a loan and not technially sold, but what happens if for some reason we miss certain payments in the future?

What happens if we ever move move stadiums - surely the amount we'd get for Goodison would be minimal if secured against a loan?

Thomas W (24) - "please explain why Stoke, Wigan, Brum, Bolton, Burnley, Fulham, Hull, Sunderland, WBA, West Ham and Wolves have all spent more than us this summer?"

OK. Hull? don't be ridiculous. West Ham have recently been acquired via a fire sale. before that, they were one of a number of clubs who suffered PTT (Post Takeover Trauma) from something which purported to be their saviour and instead fucked them royally with huge debts & players on huge salaries the club couldn't afford.

Burnley? again, don't be ridiculous. As for all the other clubs you list, none have a players' wages bill anything like Everton's. The exception being Sunderland,who of course attract far higher attendances than we do.

Some people just don't want to keep asking questions however many times they are answered. So, just for you, and for the umpteenth time, listen up:

Everton have assembled a talented and (now) well paid squad of players beyond anything in our history. Players that were on £25k a few years ago (e.g. Cahill, Arteta) are now on 2 or 3 times that. Although we ostensibly have "no money", we are playig with the big boys as far as we can. Despite the lack of new investment, Kenwright is doing all he can (some might argue) to give Moyes what he asks for, which is to pay whatever it takes to keep this squad together.


And again, it's all a matter of public record, so stop asking stupid questions with obvious answers.

There is another question that occupies people on here, namely the continuous lack of new & real investment. People like myself can live with a Bill Kenwright as Chairman as a figurhead and an obvious Evertonian. But that doesn't meanwe are blind to the difficulties the club is in. We remain financially snookered and it's far from ideal. It could, yes it could, be much much worse. Teh list of examples is too long to even bother with.

But Everton does seem to be suffering unnecessarily in many people's minds and, whilst I adhere to the model of self-sufficiency for ALL clubs, it is abundantly clear that our club needs new capital and a strategic plan. Fire fighting and re-arranging the deck chairs is no way to run a top football club.

It can be argued over & over as to where the blame lies. It is almost inconceivable that no serious interest has been muted. But the idea that Kenwright is turning a deaf ear to new investment appears fatuous.

The one area where I really think the club are missing a trick is in its candour with us fans. If all was ticketyboo then this is less of an issue. But we have been boxed in financially for a long time now, Kirkby ended up a ridiculous folly that numerous fans warned it would, there seem to be few really new ideas coming from within the club to kick on, so it seems to me that there is everything to gain from carrying the fans with you. Our fan base includes many very smart people who the club should be embracing rather than disenfranchising.

For me, this all tracks back to the idea of a club in which fans have a real stake, rather than just one where we invest financially and emotionally for zero return. I am, in truth, both surprised and disappointed that Everton have not seized the initiative on this. The potential for raising financial and emotional capital is so apparent that it really is an opportunity spurned.

It's amusing to observe people like myself branded as Kenwright "lovers". Personally, I simply see the shit that's happened elsewhere and realise that the grass is rarely as green as it looks from afar. But such resignation never blinds me, and others, to the need for fresh investment and fresh ideas. There will always remain more important things in life (a good friend only 2 years older than me has just been given a 20% chance of survival from cancer), but we always want better for our club.

"It can be argued over & over as to where the blame lies. It is almost inconceivable that no serious interest has been muted. But the idea that Kenwright is turning a deaf ear to new investment appears fatuous."

OK then Alan explain why he wont have a rights issue.

Why he sees 7 or 8 investors a year which turn into nothing and why we wasted 3 years and 4 million on DK.

There is an interesting article in the London Evening Standard with Keith Harris. It is mainly about the Red Knights and Manchester United, but he also mentions two potential bids for everton that never materialised.

Jay,

How much is a rights issue really going to raise? It might help in the short term, but i cannot see how a rights issue would ever generate the level of capital needec that would significantly benefit us in the long term.

This post needs the relative wage bill table that has been linked to on Toffeeweb before.

I'm fairly sure we're around 8th/9th in the list, and perform slightly ahead of where we should, although the table I remember was from about two seasons ago.

However, the likes of Stoke and West Ham who outspend us on transfers have much lower wage bills as I recall.

Sunderland are bank rolled by rich people, which seems to go under the radar. I think the guy with all the money is Ellis Short and their spending has been incredible. Their huge attendances are inflated by free/cheap tickets to local school kids.

The Indian guy buying Blackburn is a Blackburn fan because of the Shearer-led title team of the mid-90s, I don't know why Short throws his money at Sunderland when a quarter of it would have us in serious contention, but the big thing that puts people off buying Everton has to be the stadium and its lack of room for expansion.

Mike,
"but the big thing that puts people off buying Everton has to be the stadium and its lack of room for expansion"
could you provide more detail on your source for this information...or are you merely giving your opinion?

Alan - is it a bit silly to call you a 'Kenwright lover'.

Absolutely.

But i'll certainly continue to use it as it's a fair response to your wild and crazy (Ted Hughes type) descriptions of those who dared to criticise PROVEN serial bullshit-merchant, Bill Kenwright.

YOU were the one who referred to people (nb: guilty of nothing but arguing an opposite point of view) as snarling sheep, slavering dogs cage rattlers and Kenwright haters.

(hardly the calm and detached observer of the folly of others, you would have us believe)

Now you say "It's amusing to observe people like myself branded as Kenwright "lovers"

Have to say, that's the worst spelling of 'annoying' I've ever seen.

As you sew....etc

Here it is - ?

The higher you finish in the league, the more prize moey you make, but the players will take a large proportion of this in bonuses. Where is the money going?? Easy......WAGES. The obscene wages in the premier league is why so many are on the brink of financial disaster.

I would love to know what Woods and and Earl offer EFC?

Woods is Bill's mate and does jack shite just like Abercromby did and all Earl seems to have done is get Sly to walk around Goodison in a still tagged EFC coat

In my opinion, that's all they have done. Unless someone can tell me any different?????

Eugene Ruane#28, No doubt you appreciated the irony when you posted:-

?Let's see if he can find one post that says Kenwright's a cunt or a wanker BECAUSE....'he's not wealthy'?

Look no further than the previous post #27
?My understanding of finance goes a bit deeper than that: Bill Kenwright should fuck off so that we can get a chairman with loads of money and more brains.

A beggar has no business running a football club, especially a lying fuckwit like the afore-mentioned chimpanzee? (!!) (Mange Tout Genie My Son, Mange Tout)

And while I can?t be arsed to go into the archives to provide further examples, the ?Bill get your wallet out? sort of posts have been a constant theme on Everton websites. Could I state that I?m not a big fan of Kenwright, and as Jay Harris et al pointed out, it doesn?t appear to be a particularly well run business (however Kenwright is held up as an example of a football chairman by just about everyone else) and the only good news is that the commercial side of Everton can only get better, cos it can?t get much worse.

What I was trying to point out that until we have a new stadium or completely revamped GP, revenue streams will stay almost static because of the lack of corporate boxes, obstructed views etc. So to get back to the question where is the money going? Simple, expenditure is outstripping income and that it unsustainable whether it is the corner shop or Microsoft.

But back to our mate Bill, as I?ve stated I?m not a fan, and I want to howl with frustration when we cannot cobble the money together to buy Donovan, which if marketed right (Yeah right) would pay for itself, but in the absence of a sensible offer for the club, he?s all we?ve got. And before someone posts, how do you know that there hasn?t been an offer for us? For the same reason I know there?s been an offer for the RS ? I read it in the papers, presumably put there by the prospective buyers ?people?.

Maybe this secret investor that posters say is out there wants to stay secret eh?

Neil smith I agree with you about the obscene amount of wages average players get nowadays but I would also say it is not the carbuncle on EFC's arse.

The 2009 accounts show total wages and salaries of 43.5 million ( including all admin and match control staff) out of total operating costs of 86.5 million. So it is a total myth to say all our money goes on players wages as it just doesnt!!

David # 42

A rights issue could certainly generate the 15 to 20 million that would enable the Park end to be double tiered with minimum disruption giving us a capacity of 48500.

David - FURTHER examples!?

Well for sheer brass neck, I've got to admire the attempted sleight-of-hand, but sorry - not tonight Josephine.

Here is what YOU said.

"Posters (plural) are slagging Kenwright because he's not wealthy"

I stated (confidently) you would not be able to find an example of anyone slagging Kenwright BECAUSE he was not wealthy.

And.....you couldn't.

Not one!

Instead you selected this from Liu

"Bill Kenwright should fuck off so that we can get a chairman with loads of money and more brains".

Ok, if someone (in this case Liu) says he wants the present chairman to 'fuck off' and tells us he wishes for a chairman with 'loads of money and more brains' it certainly suggests he's not happy with the present Chairman

What it does NOT say (as you stated) is that he's slagging Kenwright BECAUSE he's not wealthy.

ie: For the reason - he's not wealthy.

Fact: Liu DIDN'T say "he's a cunt and the reason I think he's a cunt is because he doesn't have enough' money"

He said he wants a chairman with loads more money than BK (me too).

He said he wants a chairman with more brains than BK (me too).

And he said he'd like BH to 'fuck off' (me too)

I repeat, NOWHERE does he (or anyone else!) say 'BK is a cunt and the reason he's a cunt is because he doesn't have enough money".

And if you still think these sentiments ARE exactly the same thing, presumably you see no difference between eggs and golf balls.

As for your mention of 'irony', hilarious.

What could be more ironic than posting to prove someone 'wrong' and using an example that is so completely...wrong.

Mange tout?

With the truth - mange bag!

Jay,

This £15 to 20 million that you say would certainly be generated. What are the figures you are basing this on? I presume you have an amount of people who would need to contribute and how much each individual would contribute.

It really would help things if people stick to content rather than personal critique. Everyone has selective peripheral vision; so what? There are important issues to be debated and those that simply trawl archives in search of a "got ya" add fuck all to any debate.

People are allowed to change minds or call it as they see it at the time. I have posted all manner of contradictory views on Moyes and even on Kenwright. There are rights & wrongs, but at least try to add something to the debate.

When all's said & done I suggest it's incontestable that we all aspire to the same thing, more or less

Jay (40) - How on earth do I, or anybody else, know why a rights issue continues to be off the agenda? I have stated my position on the whole matter of fan inclusivity and on club candour. I regard both as not only relevant, but arguably as crucial to the short/medium term health of our club if we continue to be boxed in as we are and using loans to repay loans.

The club is missing a trick and, IMHO, it (or Kenwright) will rue that intransigence. I find the "Peoples club" moniker particularly irritating and having been exploited in an arse-clenchingly cheesy way by the club. This was a clever piece of PR by a smart new manager and in no way represents the standing of the club with its fans or community.

But it could, and it should.

Let me guess Eugene, in real life you're a spin doctor maybe your real name is Peter Mandelson. Let's examine what Liu is saying " Bill Kenwright should fuck off so that we can get a chairman with loads of money and more brains".

So the question is why does Liu (and you presumably) want BK to fuck off? it would appear by his statement that he wants him to fuck off, and leave the field clear for a chairman with loads of money (the name of the new cash rich chairman he does not wish to divulge). Now according to you, this does not equate with Liu wanting BK to fuck off because he hasn't got loads of money, therefore would you care to enlighten me why Liu wants BK to fuck off?

disappointingly club continues to devour its tail with respect to income (lack of) but really has sold its assets and has no option other than to sell to someone who wants to invest ( what ever the motive ) or actually attempt to improve the business off the field and take the pressure off the manager and playing staff. In doing so it makes the club more attractive to potential investors / owners.

Locally we have seen the successful launch of Everton 2, to tap into the core fan base in Liverpool, but its general marketing / brand or profile at home and abroad is almost non-existent.

Whilst inward investment from a fans based scheme are needed and may contribute towards a specific project (new stand) they will not give ongoing revenue streams that are required to run the club season after season.

The ONLY way that will happen is to improve the business, its marketability and its profile internationally.

At the moment the club is not an attractive proposition for all the reasons stated by many on here, but it does have a great deal going for it as well. A visionary plan, a good business model and a great sales pitch and the motivation to sell are all required to make it happen.

Only then will Everton FC move forward.

There is absolutely no point comparing us with Spurs. Other than having a similar fan base owning their ground, have a larger catchment area and charge more, that's where the similarities end, their owner is collectively worth approximately 3bn. Go figure!

Many of the other clubs mentioned have a vastly lower wage bill and Stoke are owned by a guy who has cash, unlike Bill, and runs the club at net zero loss. I have no doubt the other 'smaller' clubs mentioned are in a similar position with owners doing a 'Lerner' who at some point will say 'sell to buy' queue exit manager!

David, You say..

"Now according to you, this does not equate with Liu wanting BK to fuck off because he hasn't got loads of money, therefore would you care to enlighten me why Liu wants BK to fuck off?"

Oh dear, you're now reduced to 'equate' (ie: NOT what was said)

Two things.

First of all it's not 'according to me", it is according to the laws of what we in the West accept as logic.

Secondly, yes I would be more than happy to enlighten you as to why Liu wants Bill to fuck off.

Because Liu (like me) thinks he's useless.

That for many reasons, he's not 'up to the job'.

What it DOESN'T specifically mean is "I think he's a cunt because he doesn't have enough money".

Fairly obvious stuff really, as is the fact that instead of biting the bullet and accepting that your 'point' was just plain wrong, you are now reduced what people 'MEANT' rather than what they said'

I gave you the opportunity to find examples and you couldn't find one.

But please carry on by all means (need a shovel?)

I think Bill Kenwright should piss off, for the sole reason that he doesn't have enough money

Ha ha ha.

But are you SLAGGING him for that reason Tony?

(please say yes - it could make David's week!)

Christine mentions the successful launching of Everton 2. I would assume KItbag insisted on a club presence in its own City Centre as part of the deal.

I want Bill to piss off because I don't think he's up to the job. As one of many examples, remember this exchange?....

"Why are we not represented with a bigger presence in the City?" (I had brought up the Liverpool store in L1)

BK's Answer: "Only Newcastle fans spend vast amount of sums on merchandising, and out of town Liverpool supporters. If we had a store in the city we would only make a couple of £1000s a year through that channel, so I don?t think it's worth it. That said, I?m only the chairman of the club and a fan like you, I don?t know anything about merchandising, but I do love the club."

QED

I've always found it curious when Toffeeweb posters refer to anyone vaguely optimistic as a "Kenwright-lover". I don't believe ANYONE loves Kenwright, it's just that some people grudgingly respect some of the better things he has done, and (perhaps naively) believe it's better to be run by a fan that an unknown foreigner. Even his "lovers" are bitterly frustrated with the financial situation.

"I don't believe ANYONE loves Kenwright, its just that some people grudgingly respect some of the better things he has done"
------------------

Interesting. Grudging respect seems like a rather paradoxical statement. Perhaps it's code for "I can't stand the man's repeated bollocks, but I respect him for ______________________".

It's the above blank which has me more confused than the semi-coherent description of the respect he gets... Please feel free to fill in the blank.

At least that shower of shite across the park, know how to make a stance. Us suckers just sit here banging our heads against our desks.

The common misconception is that, because Bill hired Moyes and is a lifelong Evertonian, he is a better person to run our business (which is precisely how EFC needs to operate) than a proven international business person who (a) isn't a lifelong fan, and (b) may be a "foreigner".

I don't care if they're foreign, although I have a preference for avoiding gangsters or people with a questionable human rights background (acceptable to the Premier League ? they'll just take 'isn't bankrupt').

We need a proven international businessman. I completely agree. But as owner? Or major shareholder?

I think this thread has moved beyond the usual "why aren't rich people queuing up to give us money or loan on our behalf?" stuff that gets trotted out whenever BK is mentioned... so let's consider whether the owner really makes that much of a difference given that we have accepted that Everton need to be more financially viable at an operational level.

BK has a say. A large say. I guess he'd sign off on the strategy. But he's not the one paid to investigate marketing opportunities... we have highly paid people in those roles. In fact, does anyone know Bill's salary?

Are the marketing and money men failing our club... or are we simply doing the best we can but not able to compete?

Columbo style... one more thing...

The vast majority of us don't really know what's going on at the club. I do believe that BK would get 6 or 7 investment offers a year ? that's a completely different animal from receiving offers to buy the club. The club's in the shit so I'd be surprised if there weren't more people trying to take advantage of our situation ("Have I got a deal for you!").

I can see the benefit of an Evertonian at the helm. Largely a figurehead role but with the opportunity to veto anything that he suspects has the wrong motivations (like a leveraged buyout from Indians bearing gifts).

Ernie, Bill would proudly tell you that he is unpaid. He receives no salary whatsoever as Chairman of Everton FC Co Ltd. (Only expenses...)

Ciarán...

copping off with the classy Miss Seagrove
__________________________________

Ciarán

Giving Lucille Hewitt the elbow in 1969 (when he was Gordon Clegg)

just to clarify post 63, I (grudgingly) respect him for never selling out. literally. You know where you stand with Blue Bill; in the Lower Bullens, where the seats are too small to sit down. Here's to eleven more years of Smoke and Mirrors! (raises glass watered down with tears).

Jimmy,

Highly amusing

Maybe the money went on failed stadium schemes everybody but those with a vested interest told him was an absolute non-starter? Or releasing promising young internationals?

We all know full well the list could go on but, as someone suggested, why labour the point. If your opinion of Bill is that he's a good guy looking after our club and fighting bad guys off then everything that has happened won't change that. Some of us on here find that hard to believe but everybody is entitled to thier opinion.

Stephen, not everyone thinks he's either great or a bastard.

Some of us see shades of grey.

Failed stadiums and the Gosling fiasco account for exactly how much? Significant amounts but a drop in the ocean.

Funny how Gosling is now a promising international. When he was under he contract he was shit and wouldn't amount to anything!

I'll tell you where the money isn't going ? charity.

My girlfriend just got a Dear John from the charity department after she asked for a token gift a shirt or something) for her Great Wall of China trek for Action Cancer...

Apparently they get hundreds of similar requests each year. I suppose it would literally cost them hundreds of pounds to respond positively.

The People's Club, eh!

Kenwright yesterday.

?There are many people out there who purport to have millions, even billions, who are ready to sign the cheque,? he said.

?But the minute you say ?show us the funds? they go missing and you don?t hear from them again.

?You can?t put a time frame on it. I?ve been saying this for four or five years. I?ve got what I thought was close four times in the last 10 months, but it was not even close enough. Not even near. There are people out there who would astonish you.

?They come to you and promise it?s going to be done. They ask for it to happen quickly so they can get the funds in quickly, and David (Moyes) can have some funds.

?But then the minute you ask to see the money you never see them again. To get to that stage each time is a lot of heartache, hard work and legal fees. It goes on and on. It?s quite extraordinary..?

Personally, I love the line 'there are people out there who would astonish you' (there certainly are Bill!)

Ernie,

Circa £8 million. Or to put it another way, in Moyes's hands Jagielka, Arteta and Pienaar. Hardly a drop in the ocean?

Eugene - so I suppose you know best do you. Why do you have to criticise and dispute everything he says?

We get the idea you don't like him, but its getting a bit tiresome with your snide comments to every statement. Do you have factual evidence to dispute what has been said here? If so, share it; if not, button it!

If clubs like West Ham, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Blackburn can all secure significant outside investment then why can't EFC? Answer me that Bill?

"4 times in 10 months", honestly.

And yes Billy is the Chairman of the club thereby he hires these execs to run our club like a business. If they underperform consistently where does the buck ultimately stop?
Just like Moyes is judged by the playing staff's performance. BK should be judged on who he employs to take the Everton business forward.


He should also be judged on all facets of his role as Chairman. Bringing in fresh investment and finding a new home are pretty fucking high on that list of "Things to do".

10 years on, are we any closer?

Exactly how much "heartache, hard work and legal fees" does it take to find out that some pillock, who is claiming to want to buy the club, doesn't actually have a brass farthing???

Surely asking, "Do you have the money?" is not the last thing you do in such circumstances, but rather the very fist thing!

This sounds like more bollocks to me... In fact, it actually sounds like a classic clean-up operation ? designed to extinguish any raised voices as a result of his previous faux-pas about knocking back 'six or seven investors a year'.

Reality and fiction appear to have merged.

Chris Briddon.

You're going to give yourself a thrombosis if you carry on that way.

Take a deep breath and....consider the following.

I copied and pasted the piece because it was a) new and b) relevant to this post.

Far from 'criticising and disputing' the piece, my only comment was a gentle half-dig at what I saw as the mild irony of BK finding 'other people' astonishing.

Might also add that opinions different to your own are not 'snide comments'.

Sarcastic sometimes?

Certainly! (it's allowed!)

But I don't hide my name or my opinions so... where's the 'snide'?

Tip: If you don't like it, instead telling me to 'button it' (nb: nobody like an internet warrior!) simply avoid posts that have 'Eugene Ruane' top left (if someone's posts upset me that much, I would)

Finally, you ask 'do you have factual evidence to dispute it?"

No I don't, no factual evidence at all, not a shred!

Nor did I have any 'factual evidence' that we wouldn't get a FREE stadium in Kirkby, but (like many others) I fucking knew we wouldn't.

In other words if a dog bites me (unlike you!) I don't put my hand anywhere near it's mouth again.

PS: No I don't know Bett (is she fit?)

Eugene, stop wasting your efforts responding to nonsense. It is beyond my comprehension that there are Evertonians who believe that Mr Kenwright is anything other than a free loading, bullshitting lying luvvy whose gushiness (no such word?) is utterly nauseating.

Andy, I would remind you of the words of Edmund Burke:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing... erm... when naive and uninformed posts arrive on ToffeeWeb regarding Bill Kenwright"

(Looks guilty...)

WHAT?

It's so sad that, despite us being lied to so many times by Kenwright, there are STILL Evertonians out there that lap up his every word.

The words 'once bitten, twice shy' obviously don't apply to these gullible fans.

Who exactly is lapping up his every word? Show me the posters saying he's the best man we could have had?

They don't exist... we all want change.

I do, however, believe that BK wants change as well. But on his terms ? both with regard to what he gets paid and what is in it for the club. Too fucking right he should make some money ? he's had a lot of money tied up in this club for a long time.

Cue someone ignoring the content and accusing me of lapping up his every word.

Ernie,

But exactly what are BK's terms? Because after 10 years of ownership and "24/7" searching. He must have some pretty demanding terms. That's the point. Yes we want the club to be in safe hands. But you also have to play ball. I believe BK, Earl and co want a handome profit and certain guarantees (like some form of control). Something which potential investors are reluctant to offer.
Earlier this week we hear BK admitting he has a habit of negotiating with people who aren't serious. 5 or 6 a year over 5 years is a lot of timewasters. You'd think after 2 or 3 let downs, they'd have some sort of process in place for filtering out these types?

Today we hear "there is money to spend" , really Bill? I wonder how much? £1 - £1.5M max. I'm sure that will really help bring in top 4 quality. Thanks again for backing the manager.

Ernie,

You really can't see the wood for the tree's. If he wanted to sell up he could. Think about how many takeovers have happened and we've never even had one reported in the press? Because were not for sale. Which is Bill's prerogative BTW... but he's lying to you.

May I refer my learned friend at #85, above, to the persistent, consistent and sycophantic postings of leading BK acolyte, Mr Richard Dodd.

"Who exactly is lapping up his every word? Show me the posters saying he's the best man we could have had?

They don't exist... we all want change"
-------------------------

Ernie,

Do yourself a favour ? go to the article on the main site and read the comments after it ? those are just typical of a rather commonly held view on Everton forums and other media that Kenwright is the dogs balls...

They do exist.

Comment Posted from Colin Fitzpatrick:

"For me, subjectively, it boils down to this; given Everton's potential commercial opportunities viz ticketing, corporate, merchandise and sponsorship income streams, do you believe the board has a viable and cohesive business plan? One that is in the best interests of the club and makes the most of our particular situation?

If you're happy then so be it; however, if you're not, it's easy to criticise but not so easy to offer constructive criticism and tangible solutions. One thing that is puzzling, given the boards eager acceptance to exploit the value of any asset available to do so, is this mysterious reluctance to utilise the equity potential of Everton.

"Addressing the OP's question about where the money goes is, as has been stated, a matter of public record and the question can be answered objectively. Objectively, that is, if you can fully explain why Everton's "other operating costs" have increased dramatically, from just over £1m to over £21m, since Bill Kenwright has been chairman, by over £10m in recent years alone, meaning this non-specified expenditure now represents more than 25% of our turnover.

"Nothing like a bit of transparency; no doubt this prickly question will be answered at the next AGM!"

There is a very simple reason why investors prefer the Man Citys and Blackburns of this world. It is called Return on Investment. Turning a failing team into a CL team will give a better return on investment than if you turned a consistent top 6 club into a CL club.

Add to that the fact that Everton don't get big crowds, don't have massive waiting lists for season tickets and have really poor merchandise sales ...you can see why the club is viewed as a poor investment.

If I wasn't a Toffee myself, I would look at clubs like Sunderland as being a much better investment possibility because they have a nice big stadium which attracts good crowds, and they would be much cheaper than Everton now, but worth as much (if not more) when they reached the top 4.

Please clarify "New Comments from Colin Fitzpatrick".
Who is he?
Why quoted not posted?

What is Everton equity?
"Other operating costs" sounds like shifty money manipulation.

Thanks ? excuse my ignorance.

I understand equity... just thought we had none.

Yes Charles, I'd like to see a response to your post.

Michael Kenrick, is there any chance you could remove Bill Kenwright's photo from the article on the home page. It adds nothing to the site.

I would prefer if "New Comments" changed it's colour from red to......well anything else.

I'm with Andy. There's nothing more annoying than that man's smiling grid.

Sorry, guys... Colin was having trouble with the login and wanted to post on this thread. Colin is with KEIOC and I consider him to be a good bloke. The colour is somewhat obnoxious, I'll give you that. But I wanted to catch your attention.

As for Bill's mug-shot... come on, are you serious? They're his comments; we always add an appropriate picture to the lead story. Guess I didn't need to make it so, although, to my mind, 97 comments represents some level of interest in said topic...

But don't worry: it will slip off the homepage of it's own accord sometime real soon... I promise. Watch this space!

Is it common knowledge about how many commercial people are actually employed by Everton, and how many are contractors? And does this matter?

Joining this thread very late but "People like myself can live with a Bill Kenwright as Chairman as a figurehead and an obvious Evertonian" ? Alan Kirwin. Hmm... Peter Swayles was a Man City fan, do you remember what he did for/to Man City?

It no doubt helps if you have an interest in the club but putting that as the prime reason his tenure is accepted is a nonsense; football is a business ? not an old boys club... and until such time as the club breaks that regime, nothing will change.

Many others before me have questioned, very reasonably, why they believe BK's lack of acumen, long- or even short-term strategy and failure to find this mythical investment in 10 years or his catalogue of failings and lies (only the truly pedantic could argue a lie is not a lie) are their reason to no longer hold him in any form of trust or faith as the figurehead pf Everton FC.

Michael, many thanks for answering.

@Colin Fitzpatrick
"mysterious reluctance to utilise the equity potential of Everton"

Again, excuse my ignorance but I don't know what this means, if our assets are mortgaged up to the hilt what is this about and can you put a figure on its potential value.

The rise in "Other operating costs" up to 25% of turn over seems a suitably vague accounting term for allowing dipping into the till, can this, or will this ever be itemised. Any answers from our financial whizz kids gratefully received.

Brendan (#96) I mean come on fella! Tone it down. Or are you the sort of person who would never go into Tesco cos they use red on their carrier bags?

Oh, shit, what have I started now... Anyway, game kicks off in half an hour. Rodders starts, COYB!

From Colin Fitzpatrick:

Just to clarify, as I've noticed a few people asking, when I mention the reluctance to exploit the equity in the club, I'm specifically talking about exploiting the opportunity to raise equity finance.

Many agree that Everton is grossly undervalued and that it would not only be possible but preferable to raise £30m through a share issue. This would mean we could effectively finance the redevelopment of the Park End into a revenue generating complex, without indebting the club whatsoever.

The downside would be the diluting of the current shareholdings and establishment of a commitment to stay at Goodison for the next 50 years at least; two factors that the person who provided the money for Kenwright's and Earl's shares doesn't appear over enamoured by!