Being there... or not

I`m a right anorak, I do both. I watch every game I`ve been to on Football First.

I have no doubt you are right, the crowd can influence the way you feel when you are at the game, but I`m equally certain a commentator can too.

Jim Beglin repeatedly told the viewers how Chelsea had targeted Hibbert in the 2009 FA Cup Final ? ignoring the fact that they probably had the best left side in the world at the time and attacked everyone in the same way. If you watch that final, you will see they only get past him 3 times, but to this day people still blame Hibbert.

There can be little doubt you see more at the match, but you get a closer view on the telly, slo-mo`s and repeats usually clear up the "debatable" decisions too. It seemed to me that the entire Main Stand got a text message at exactly the same time at the recent Villa game, people watching at home were able to confirm Beckford's effort had actually crossed the line; we would have still been arguing at the final whistle.

It's swings and roundabouts: if you went to Saturday's game you would have thought Osssie was terrific; if you listened to the Gormless Barry Horne you`d have thought he was Pele.

The match day is a social occasion, it's a day-long event, a few beers before and after the game, a chance to discuss selections, tactics etc with old mates... and of course there's always the atmosphere: when we win you cant beat it.

Watching at home is an excellent substitution, it's only a 90-minute experience, but you see the bits that really count and if you turn down the prick who's trying to tell you what your witnessing with your own eyes, you`re laughing.

Different experience? Well, of course... but we can all learn from each other.

Dave,

That's a fantastic response to what could well have become an emotive and drawn out subject. I think you've covered all of the angles above, and I do the same whenever I do get an opportunity to get to a game (not as much as I'd like and more away than home sadly).

Well as a poor sucker who lives in Australia, I can only watch all games live on telly. Usually they start at around 1, 2 or 3am in which case I stay up; sometimes they can start around 6 am, so I set an early alarm. I can tell you that I can't miss my weekly Everton fix. International weekends leave me all bitter and agitated.

When Everton came out for the tour of Aus at the start of the season, I travelled to all three games. And whilst the games were far below the standard of Premier League football, and the atmosphere undoubtedly nowhere near that found in England, they were still the best live sporting events of my life.

I will be going to Liverpool next June, and staying for a year. I will be making it my mission to try and get to every league and cup game (and Europe if that somehow ends up on the cards) and I just can't wait. But I guarantee I will still be watching replays and highlights on TV because you most definitely miss certain things at any live sporting event.

I can bitch and moan like the best of them, but I'd still rather watch the Toffees play crap or lose than not watch them at all.

It may be a soladarity (sp) thing. The number of years I have been going = how defensive I get about the whole parts of Everton FC, the players (apart from Anichebe) and everyone else. Kenwrong is a little different, I don't "hate" him, he is a dope who doesn't have enough money in my eyes but there are occassions where I want to strangle the fecker.

You obviously see more of the intricacies (sp) of the game with all the cameras but can't beat being there.

Dave nails it... both have benefits.

Take your example Andy ? at a game you can focus on whatever you want (as long as you're not in bad seat and can't actually see the whole of the pitch ? which is another matter) but, if you're focusing on the off-the-ball actions of one player, you cannot be focussing on what's happening on the ball... even with peripheral vision.

Swings and roundabouts.

However, we don't go to the match to analyse the game... there is that something extra: Goodison and her blue contents in all their glory.

As a season ticket holder IMO here are the pros & cons of live vs telly:

TV follows the ball and you tend not to see the work going on off the ball, or the moves coming off. Verdict: live wins hands down.

Going to a game, you get caught up with the emotion of it, whereas watching it on TV, I'm always less involved and therefore more objective, and of course any incident is replayed over & over... Verdict: TV (just).

I havent been this season unfortunately BUT dont they also show highlights/replays on the BIG SCREEN at the match?!

I completely disagree. I think Ken's comment is a veiled dig at Michael Kenrick. There are plenty of match going fans who don't think Moyes is the messiah that Dave Wilson holds him up to be.

This is my last season as a season ticket holder. One of the reasons I'm giving up my ticket is because, for the most part, the football served up by Moyes is crap. There are other reasons, such as the club's finances and my own finances, but, as a match going fan, I can't justify the expense when I just don't enjoy watching Moyes's brand.

Goodison this season has been lifeless as well. The derby aside when has Goodison been 'rocking' this season? A lot of fans round me in the Park End don't even get worked up at the ref anymore. Maybe it's different where Dave Wilson sits but, from where I watch, all I've seen for most of this season is a load of overpaid players who couldn't give a shit playing in a rigid outdated system. It's only changed when it had to but we all know Moyes will revert back as soon as his favourites are fit again.

The non-match goer can watch highlights or sit in the warmth of their living room. They don't even have to watch, they can just be pleased with the result. It's far less agonising hearing we've lost 4-1 at home to West Brom than sitting in the freezing cold watching the whole ordeal... and therefore far easier to forgive Moyes.

I'm in Cornwall, but come Sat afternoon you'll find my head buried in my pc monitor, checking out the links on matchday live forum.

It seems to be the same people every week and the banter is second to none. The best bit is the fact that all the supporters, come from all over the globe so there will be differing time zones. But everyone's there, loyal to the core.

I get to the match when I can, but work and distance greatly reduces opportunity.

To those who haven't "done it" yet, do yourself a favour ? it's one of the best bits of ToffeeWeb (good stuff, Michael).

Alan

Read my posts; I have never held Moyes up as a "Messiah" but then you know that don't you?

You seem to want to disregard the post so you can make personal attacks.
I`m not sure why you are giving up your ticket, maybe you feel you have been taken for a fool after supporting the board so fervently over Kirkby, don't blame you

Moyes is mentioned, but this is not another Moyes thread, read the OP ffs and try to understand the question the guy is asking.

Alan, I take on board your comments. Sitting freezing at the West Brom game must have been a total nightmare and is something I didn't consider in my post. However, as Dave said I was trying to write something other than anti-Moyes stuff, which I've done enough of.

Andy, even though it's not relevant, i've just gotta say "becareful what you wish for" - I know you like that saying.

For what it's worth I haven't been to a match this season. The reason is mainly financial, (it's cheaper to fly to Dublin for the day than go to the match). Like many I had a feeling in the summer (due to lack of new faces) that we would get off to the usual start, after the first 3 games of the season I thought I haven't got the spare to spend on this lot. Some say it makes you a less of a fan? Well I can tell you that I'm 41 and chose the blues when I was 7, the area (Rossendale) was full of Pool and Man U, guess what I'm back living in the same area again and it's still full of Man U and pool, no douby City will get more gloryhunters. I was there when Andy Gray got the 2 diving headers against Sunderland, the last 6 times i've been to Goodison under Moyes we haven't even scored a goal, I'll always be a fan though and I fully admire the guys who follow the blues to every match! In my opinion you only get a full view of everything at the match.

Dave Wilson thats a good point about Hibbert, in hindsight that left hand side of Chelseas midfield would have ripped most righbacks to shreads.

I agree with Alan Clarke. I go the game and hate the boring defensive football Moyes brings. I want exciting attacking football that we only see when there are injuries etc

Joe McMahon

"In my opinion, you only get a full view of everything at the match." ? You can't be talking about Goodison games then!!!

Good point Dean, I like it. I suppose you could see the a whole view of the pitch if you had a Go Gadget Neck.

I have a season ticket and go to the game, and the people around me at Goodison don't like what they have been seeing this season as much as me. It's been poor barring the last two months; we have been dire to watch and predictable.

I will praise Moyes however for the last few games with the thin squad we have had, but that's another point me and others say: he can't handle having a good bunch of players to choose from. Think back to August when Moyes stated that this was his best ever squad, I feel though that he didn't know what best eleven to pick, and the players that were playing badly he refused to drop.

I feel this summer is time for a change all over the club from top to bottom, new owners with ambition and cash to match it, and a new manager someone fresh with new ideas, maybe Jol or Lambert?

Graham, it's quite funny now, especially when a few months ago a load of posters were saying that we should bring in Holloway, as this fella knows how to set up an attacking team. Look where he is now and look at the number of goals they have scored... the same as us, yet they are cacking themselves for safety and we are now sitting safely in a boring 7th place.

Definitely being at the game is the best perspective.

Its true as well that you can see a different game sitting in different parts of the ground, try sitting near the pitch or directly behind the goal, the game is so much quicker than watching high up in the stands.

I have a season ticket and am renewing next year.

That however does not mean i am a fan of Moyes though.

In my opinion when your at the game, it only serves to highlight the negative points about Moyes that many people will may see on the TV.

At the Wolves game, Moyes left Beckford on the half way line for the Wolves corners; a refreshing sight. Although on saturday, normality was restored and Beckford was on the edge/in our box defending.

Also when on the TV, you don't always see the runs players make. On numerous occasions on Saurday, players made good runs into space and Jagielka kept dithering in possession, ignoring the players and then lumping it aimlessly.

I think it depends how you want the game to be played to be honest. I think when your in the ground you notice the smaller details more.

Dave; on the Hibbert point; i was sat near to the press box on our right hand side during the final. Although you say Hibbert only got beat three times, that wasn't the problem.

The problem was because he was scared to get beat; he kept backing off and allowing the crosses to come in. Thats my view on it anyway; guess it just highlights different opinions.

This isn't me bashing Moyes; i just think when your at the game, the more annoying factors about our team/tactics grate on you.

I think i'm just fed up of the everyone back at corners/ lump it aimlessly off our own kicks offs and instantly give the ball away tactics; maybe being there to see them only highlights them more.

Arsenal had everyone back for corners, as did the shite. It's not just Moyes that does it....unfortunately we don't have anyone quick enough to break with Beckford when he speeds off.

BTW, slightly off piste, but to back up Tony J Williams, I went on the Arsenal page of Team talk and Wenger's getting crucified, much the same as Moyes does on here when we don't win. If we beat the Mancs on Saturday (big if), there will probably be "Fergie Out" posts on their webpage. No-one likes losing and they always have a go at the manager.

Tony the Apologist strikes again...... so because Arsenal do it and Liverpool do it then Moyes is right!

The amount of times over the last 10 years we have invited pressure on from corners and had to defend second, third and fourth attacking phases because we didn't have anyone on the D or anyone up front is a joke. That is 2, 3 or 4 times the opportunities given to a team just because they have a corner. But that's probably because I'm one of those uneducated blues that Moyes considers to not understand football.

....."unfortunately we don't have anyone quick enough to break with Beckford when he speeds off....."

So, who has been at the mighty blues for 10 years and not bought a player with pace to burn anywhere in the team?????

Eagerly waiting to hear how that is not Moyes fault........ Oh yeh, I remember now, money, that's it.

I can't see Everton live either, but from my match going experiences watching Aussie Rules, there's nothing that beats a live match at the MCG - the pie at half time, the four tray of Carlton Draught, feeling like you're going to fall to your death walking up the outer.

Having said that, you are more informed of everything on the tele. Things from replays of how a player has done something, to calls a ref (umpires in our game) makes. This one is a biggie. At a live game, you only have your knowledge of the rules to let you know what certain free kicks are given for, and sometimes it is confusing and whatnot. On tele they know what it is from all the micing they do and communication.

The only other thing I can think of that the endless replays on tele give advantage to is things like dubious goals and plays that are too fast to see live. Not to bash him, but spectators at last week's game would have thought Osman had hit a very sweet shot to get his goal, and probably missed the decisive deflection it took to actually go on target.

Would trade all the information in the world to watch the live game though.

Robbie #21

I agree it's frustrating that we invariably drag everyone back to defend, but do you honestly believe moyes doesn't want a top quality player with pace?

I'm sure this rare commodity is greatly sought after by every manager. The last player at everton to fit the bill was landon donovan and we simply couldn'tcan't afford to tempt him or LA to return on a permanent basis, so yes, money is crucial, sad but true.

Moyes deserves a chance with a top 6 (current) budget.

Steve #24, in 10 years I can only recall us being linked with 2 pacey wingers, SWP and Landon. I agree that money does come into it, of course it does, but that can't be held up as the sole reason we haven't brought one in, it's not bad luck, it's not unfortunate, it's through a lack of trying.

We could have got a few million for the Yak, Vaughan etc. and funded the Donovan deal but Moyes asked for too much money for the pair of them and was quite rightly laughed at. Landon was desperate to come to us and we screwed it up again, although I will accept it was not all Moyes fault, a certain Mr Kenwright has a lot to answer for too.

Alan you were there throughout the nineties and the Walter Smith era of five, six or seven defenders chosen from a full squad, a time when Scott Gemmill was the only person in our team trying to pass the ball, and now is the time you've had enough?

Absolutely bizarre my friend.

I hope both financial situations improve and you find yourself there regularly very soon.

And Robbie the "lableist" strikes again.

Not defending Moyes at all, it frustrates the Hell out of me too but using it as an example of poor management would indictate that 90% of the managers around the world are poor managers too.

"I agree that money does come into it, of course it does, but that can't be held up as the sole reason we haven't brought one in, it's not bad luck, it's not unfortunate, it's through a lack of trying" - So you are finally admitting that money does have a say in it.

Of course it's so easy, just spot your target, who has been playing well and noticed by every rich club and just sign him without a bye or leave..... Moyes would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't of been for those pesty Chelski, ManUre, Citteh etc

As an extra Robbie, we have been linked with about 60 players last close season, so not too sure why you can only remember Donovan and the crap Shaun Wright-Phillips.

So you think the derisory offer by West Ham was a good offer then and the subsequent lower offer? Who was in for Vaughan? Who was in for Anichebe? It is so easy to say get rid, God knows nearly every Evertonian wants Vic off the books, but who wants to buy over the hill or injury prone players from us?

I cant help thinking some people just want to whine. regardless of how they watch the game.

I mean a team comes to GP and parks the bus . . .but we are the negative ones ?

I`ve had great fun watching Everton at Chelsea, Manc City, Spurs - even if Howard gifted them a lifeline - Anfield -even if the ref gifted them a lifeline - Birmingham. Newcastle was also great crack as was Wolves. I have been left really frustated by the home teams poxy luck at Sunderland, Villa, Fulham. We have either won or deserved to win every one of those games, but people continue to focus on our "negativity at home" - the ones when the opposition parked the bus.

It doesnt matter how, or where you watch the game, if you got no pleasure out of the home wins over Blackpool, Spurs and Liverpool, or the comeback against Man U. you may as well throw your hand in

Dave

Nobody is saying they don't get pleasure out of the games you mentioned. Surely it frustrates you the way we have everybody back for corners? Or the way we play kick offs to Baines/Jagielka then lump it. This gives the other team the chance to settle with the ball. Look at the first 20mins of the Wolves game!

I agree with you; I wish to god all these teams came to Goodison and played the way Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd and Blackpool do. We are a much better side when teams open up against us.

The problem is most teams are scared to do so and thats why we struggle.

I was merely pointing out some frustrations I have that people may not pick out on the TV.

Luke, it more than frustrates me, especially when the Yak was playing....remember his cock up at Analfield to surrender a goal.

It's just that a lot of posters seems to want to suggest that it is a "Moyes tactic" it isn't. Watch teh game tonight and tomorrow, I bet there will be numerous times when both teams do the same.

I hate it but it happens more often then not, I wish it didn't, especially with us.

Against Fulham at home, Necks stayed up for one....I nearlt fainted but mext corner it was back to the status quo

Tony

I agree its not just a Moyes tactic, but I still wish he would change it. Why do it for the Wolves game and then not at home? Puzzles me.

Sometimes though, more often last season, you could see the strikers looking over to Moyes almost asking permission to stay up; then they would retreat to our box.

What i don't get is that we often leave the post empty but still bring people like Coleman back; too small to challenge for the ball and Saha who can't head for shite and is an liability in our box; see Blackpool at home.

They make a crowded box worse; we all know Howard does need anymore people in his way. Soon I fear he will be defending corners by standing in his goal.

The kick offs one is a Moyes tactic, in my view. I know other teams do it, but their the Stokes, Boltons of the world who its expected off. Teams this season such as Birmingham and Wigan have passed the ball from their kickoffs. Why we have to go back then do a kick and rush is beyond me.

It must be the equivalent of territory in Rugby Union. Try and get it as far away from your own area as possible then run after it.

Don't worry about Howard Luke, that fecker won't leave his line.

Look at Jag's cock up against Blackburn, him and Baines straight away turned to Howard and asked why he hadn't come and claimed it, pointing upwards

Robbie Shields
@25.
You say that "Landon was desperate to come to us and we screwed it up again".
Is that the Landon who said he wanted a break from football after playing solidly, including his spell with us, for a couple of years. That wasn't Moyes fault, and if you think Moyes, or any manager, does the buying and selling these days your out of your tree. Managers can give a list of who they'd like but then it's up to the board, chairman or CEO to do the deal. Managers buying players? It's not the 60's.

One thing I've noticed after watching games back is how much more dangerous situations look while watching live.

I think being able to see the full pitch and where each player is, which more often than not you can't on T.V makes a big difference.



You can see a player's movement, tracking back and good/poor positional play much better live.

IMO there's a limit that any decent fan, especially one who has played the game will be influenced by others whether the crowd or a pundit.

Apologies if I've just covered what other's have said as I haven't got time to read all comments.

Tony J

"a few months ago a load of posters were saying that we should bring in Holloway, as this fella knows how to set up an attacking team. Look where he is now and look at the number of goals they have scored"

The fact they have scored as many goals as us with a massively inferior squad which cost about ten pence is not to be underestimated, the fact that they are sinking like a stone is only a testament to their earlier achievements. many predicted they wouldn't get ten points.

Regardless of where they finish they have achieved a lot, comparing Moyes and holloway on league placings alone is a massively unfair comparison and one to me which Moyes still loses, based on the attitude Blackpool have taken when playing big sides, us included.

Even though this thread has taken a massive detour from the original issue, here's how Moyes has given us little hope that he wants a fast player in the side:

Positions where pace is needed, if not mandatory: Striker, wing, fullbacks.

Three of Moyes' favourites in these positions are Anichebe, Osman and Hibbert - three blokes that combined couldn't finish the 100 in less than 150 steps.

Stephen Kenny, well said. I can bet even if Blackpool go down, majority of their fans will be proud of their team whilst still being a bit dissappointed. I know I'm not proud of how Everton have gone this year, and think that Holloway should be a whole lot safer in his job than Moyes.

Proud of getting relegated??? I have heard it all now.

Anichebe, a Moyes favourite? Eh?

Testament to their early achievements? What are they then, getting a few points at the start of the season. When's the parade?

If league placings aren't part of being classed as a better manager, then what the hell is?

What's our record against the "big sides" this year? Arsenal lost both times 2-1, Chelski, drew in the league, knocked them out the cup, Man U, 3-3 draw, Manchester City, beat them 2-1, Spuds drew 1-1, beat them 2-1, Liverpool won 2-0 and drew 2-2. You were saying about the better teams?

Blackpool against us 2-2 and then beat 5-3....sorry what was your point again?

I was reading the above and someone mentioned Davey has failed to buy fast players during his tenure.

Marcus Bent was quick. Coleman usually out runs people. Lastly...eh Andrew Johnson anyone?

Anyway, pace and quality costs serious money. But I know I'd rather have Coleman over Lennon anyday.

Fair point about Andy Johnson, completely forgot about him but I'm glad you reminded me of him. He was that goalscorer that came to us and played up front on his own wan't he, yeh I remember him now, the guy with pace to burn who was told to use it to devastating effect into the corner flags and look for free kicks, or hold it up for 10 seconds whilst the rest of the team ran up the pitch to support him and cross it in for....er.....for.....er..., can't remember.

Oh and Marcus Bent, yep, another genuinely fast guy used to his maximum potential, I remember vividly running his arse off to close down defenders in the oppositions half all alone, and the defenders passing around him, a bit like when I used to take the mickey out of the thick kids who were crap at footy in school, you know the ones, endlessly running around like headless chickens following the ball whilst we passed it around watching them get knackered. Then, when the ball did break, guess who was too shagged to move, had to come off after 60 minutes and didn't make the darting attacking runs when we broke.

So which genius concocted those particularly specutacular and entertaining strategies, answers on a post card to Swap Shop.

Tony, once again you spectacularly miss the point someone makes, there is a huge difference between pride in where your team ends up in the league (I'd call them trophy supporters) and pride in the team for how they went about it, played football and entertained, get it now?????

Robbie

So at first you were critical because Moyes hasn't tried buying quick players and now I use 3 examples of him doing so you choose to slag off 2 of them and overlook the most effective one?

Fact is Moyes went after AJ because his pace is an asset and Landon Donovan likewise.

Was that the Marcus Bent who led our forward line to the Champions League qualifiers?

Was that the Andrew Johnson who played in Europe all the time he was with us?

How can you proud of a team that has "spectacularly" failed? Get it now? (Just the one question mark will suffice for me) I wouldn't be entertained if in the last 17 games we had won 2 drew 2 and lost 13...and I would put any money down that you wouldn't be coming on here shouting about how proud you were if we were getting beat 3-2 or 5-3 every game....because we went for it.

Dave (28), Tony (37) - Well done. What if we had Ronaldo this season?

Andrew, I'm not slagging off any of the players, I was slagging off the way they were told to play by Mr Moyes, how is that not clear? I had genuinely forgot about those you mentioned, probably because their pace was not used effectively, hence my point.

Moyes then got rid of Johnson, why? because he stopped scoring goals, why? because he was instructed to follow hoof balls into the corner.

Tony, you cannot be serious! Again I was not slagging off Marcus Bent, he did exactly as he was told, close down defenders, must work harder, etc. etc. But in answer to your question, yes, that is the same Marcus Bent that led Everton into the Champions League qualifiers in the only team in histort (If memory serves me well) with a negative goal difference AND with the lowest points tally EVER!

It appears i'm a very different breed of Evertonian and football fan to you and Andrew, but very similar to Mr Kenrick, Eugene and Roman, you might dare I say it label me a 'purist' a tag I would be quite happy with.

Tony, what Blackpool supporters can be proud of and what Everton supporters should be proud of are poles apart.

Blackpool are a club that hasn't been in the top flight for 40 years. They came up, gave the league a good crack and didn't just sit back and let teams pressure them. I dare say there supporters have done a lot less moaning than ours have.

Which brings me to what Everton supporters should be proud of. For me, and hopefully almost every other Evertonian, it is one thing: winning trophies!

If you want to be proud of finishing in the top 8/7/6/10 or whatever "elite group" we decide is this season's cut off point for us and having our cup run ended by Reading, then do it without criticising those of us who crave the former.

Robbie : Purist your having a laugh lad, your just getting all dewy eyed looking back to a time you think you rememeber ?

in the past 40 season we have had three good league campaignes. the rest have generally been either on a par or considerably worse than this one.

Kendalls team were very good . .but purists ? go and look up the meaning

I

Dave, you really should learn to read and comprehend before you post replies. I'm a purist, not Everton, certainly not under Moyes anyway, and you sir are a Muppet (Look it up in the dictionary) :)

Is it any wonder why criticism of Moyes is so readilly batted out of the TW park ? I swear the people who want him gone do more than anybody to keep him here.

Clever answer Robbie lad : Another anti moyes poster stooping to childish name calling after his nonsensical claims has been blown away. Funny how people defending Moyes never seem to feel the need.

"Muppet" - razor sharp wit - matched only by your knowledge, I`ll make a mental note not to cross swords with you again.

Roman, who said I was proud of where we are now? far from it but for posters to suggest that a team who have been tonked so many times in the last couple of months, for their fans to be proud is just so "spectacularly" ridiculous, it's untrue.

Blackpool, yes first time in the premier league but guess what? they spent more on transfers than we did this season.

Robbie, I know you weren't slagging him off, I was reiterating the point that this rubbish manager's tactics of apparently mis-using Bent saw us get in the Champions League Qualifers, I don't give two figs that it was with a minus goal difference (only came about after conceeding 7 against Arsenal when the players were probably still hungover from celebrating in Baby Blue, it's well documented) and lowest points.

If we won the league with a minus goal difference and the lowest points tally, would your "purist" mind reject such a notion and would you moan about that too?

I am glad that I am a different breed than you, you make your decisions and don't listen to anything else. I can be pursuaded on my vews if reasonable points are put across and I can see the error of my opinion....it seems you can't, it's black and white for you, which is fair enough but don't get all uppity when your steadfast views are challenged by others who have a different opinion.

Try and debate without the labelling and certainly without the name calling, as above. (leave that for the drunken rants after a match)

Fair enough Tony. Though I do believe that Blackpool, fans would be dissappointed with how their season is ending (they haven't been relegated yet though), but still proud - you can be both.

I just get sick of people trying to defend Moyes by listing all of his acheivements, which technichally, and for future reflection, sit at naught.

Fair enough Roman, no probs!

Dave, I used the term and phrase 'Muppet' as a lighthearted retort to your condescending '... go and look up the meaning....'; I even included a little smiley face so as not to upset you, but it would appear I am the childish one... fair does, guilty as charged, I'm still a big kid at heart.

Tony, actually my views on Moyes have changed over the years, I may be more open to change of opinion than you think, summarisied as follows.

I was unsure when he came to us because I did not know anything about him, but I had heard that he had made Preston into a very good footballing side and WS was so dour and dull as to be untrue.

I was then made up with him for a couple of years as he rebuilt the team, the supporters expectations, the quality of players and our league position, genuinely no mean feet and for which I am eternally grateful.

I then started to become disillusioned with Moyes when we went with only one out-and-out striker up front chasing the infamous hoofball. I was chuffed to bits with getting into Europe mind, but look what happened: we were humiliated in Romania and out of both the Champions League and Europa Cup in a matter of weeks.

From then on, the progress I had seen by Moyes to me seemed to have stopped; he seemed to revert to negative tactics and one up front, even when at home to vastly inferior teams.

All through the above years, right from the very beginning, I had observed on most occassions his inability to play players in their best positions, poor tactical knowledge and incredibly poor substitutions and timings.

Moyes has bought some cracking players, a few duds, but I can accept that goes with the territory. Beginning of this season, I believed (and still do) that the squad is the best by far we have had since the mid-80s and hoped against all hope that Moyes would get the best out of them. He didn't; he actually turned them collectively into a far worse team somehow. The only times we have looked decent is when Moyes has had no selection headaches due to injuries and the team is forced on him.

Therefore my most recent change of opinion has been that Moyes simply does not have the footballing nous to build a good footballing team when he has all the building blocks in place. Also, his negativity and constant whinging about lack of funds is holding himself and Everton back; if he can address those things then guess what, I'll change my views again and be more than happy to do so.

Robbie.

When you refer to other people as "apologist" your argument is lost, by now everybody knows its meant to be derogatory, an attempt to claim the higher ground, to discourage a view that is contrary to your own. It doesnt wash lad, by attacking the person instead of the point you just look like you`re trying to shout down an opposing view. Childish name calling is a weapon usually used by people whose argument is piss weak.

If there is an opposite to damning by faint praise you my friend are guilty of it.

When you complain Moyes doesnt pick the team you would like him to, it merely puts you in the same Bracket as every other footy fan in the world, dont you get it ? we all think we know better than the manager . .regardless of who he is..

When you argue Moyes misused people like Marcus Bent and Andy Johnson, you leave yourself wide open for people to come back with facts, both players will tell you the highlight of their playing carreers were under Moyes, both reach heights they had never reach before or since. I wont hear a bad word said about either, but qualifying for the champions league must have been beyonds Marcus`s wildest dreams . .and under Moyes he got to play a big part in that.

Most people would disagree with you. Moyes got the best out of both players, then sold them for a profit. they would see this as first class management, they would also see that 99% of the teams we play park the bus . . . but you think its Moyes being negative. Your argument does Moyes more good than harm..

As for your claim of being a "different breed" a "purist", was it another another attempt to make yourslef feel superor ? it didnt work if it was,. If you really are a "purist" you`d have been frustrated with Everton for the past 40 years why start moaning about it now ?
Maybe I`m wrong, Perhaps you didnt see all those shite teams People like Lee, Walker, and Smith produced.

If Moyes is really so bad, why dont you get an Article up there and tell us why, because at the moment I`m reading you criticism and thinking. Is that all you got ?

When I was younger I used to watch on telly and gradually progressed to becoming a season ticket holder. Nothing gives you a clearer picture of how the players are playing, how they're gelling as a team, how they're feeling at the club and the relationship they have with the fans than being at the match. When you watch the game at the ground you are more critical naturally in my opinion. You can notice the little things that certain players do so well that don't come across well on TV unless you're really looking for them. Overall, it just gives a clearer picture of how the team or doing I feel and there's no sub for it. And you get all that, a day out with fellow evertonians' opinions and feelings and you don't have to sit at home on the PC and the TV to get it.

When I was younger I used to watch on telly and gradually progressed to becoming a season ticket holder. Nothing gives you a clearer picture of how the players are playing, how they're gelling as a team, how they're feeling at the club and the relationship they have with the fans than being at the match. When you watch the game at the ground you are more critical naturally in my opinion. You can notice the little things that certain players do so well that don't come across well on TV unless you're really looking for them. Overall, it just gives a clearer picture of how the team or doing I feel and there's no sub for it. And you get all that, a day out with fellow evertonians' opinions and feelings and you don't have to sit at home on the PC and the TV to get it.

Dave, my points were clearly made in my last response; you chose to ignore them completely. Claiming my argument is lost because I simply used the term 'Apologist' a number of posts ago IMHO is generally done by people who can't argue the points made and therefore say things like 'but he started it', diverting the topic of conversation away from the points made.

I can assure you, I have no intention of trying to make myself appear superior to anyone; again I have observed over the years that it is the opposite way around ? those with inferiority complexes accuse others of trying to be superior. If that is the case, then maybe the problem is yours and not mine.

If you'd like to respond to the points made in my previous points of how my interpretation of Moyes's tenure over the last 10 years then please do so.

The only point you even vaguely addressed was that of Moyes's team selections, where once again your comprehension let you down or you chose to misread it. My observation was not that Moyes didn't pick the right players; it was that he consistently failed to play many of them in their natural best positions, causing poor performances, lack of confidence, confusion in the team, etc etc. There is a very subtle difference. Neville, Baines, Lescott, Jagielka, Fellaini, Yobo, Anichebe ? all of whom suffered through being played consistently out of position for no apparent reason.

Oh I understood you alright Robbie and having seen your last post well . . .. . It kinda explains your childish name calling.

If you really believe Baines, Lescott, Jagielka and Yobo have been played "CONSISTANTLY " out of position then I`m afraid you inadvertantly put up a better defence for Moyes than ever could .