What price a trophy?

The issue of how Moyes should be judged is a battle for hearts and minds on TW.

However that creates a dilemma.

In my mind, I would probably have to say that I agree with most of your comments.

However, as a, cough splutter, 40 something it was my privilege to watch Reid, Steven et al in their prime. They were winners and the football at times was quite simply breathtaking to watch.

Therefore, my heart tells my mind to STUFF reasoned debate and logic in relation to the Moyes and the present day team.

Put another way ... must we really accept that this is as good as it gets ?

Answer: Moyes has taken Everton to Europe and to an FA Cup final with very little money. So yes, comparable. As the 3rd comment what a fucking ridiculous statement. David Moyes only had ONE SEASON IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!! That was the season after he got Preston promoted from League 1 - and in that season he even managed to get them to the final of the play offs - after that he joined us. So don't bang on about what he didn't achieve in his Championship years!!!

Dave Wilson made a very pertinent point on another thread that his support for Moyes was based on fear of the alternative. It is a compelling argument and one which gave me pause for thought. However, I still believe that things could have been better and ? while I believe we have much to thank DM for ? I think it is time to face the fear and conquer it.

If other people think that we would be better off and might have won something then fair enough. But looking at the amount of teams who have spent more or a similar amount than us but have found themselves relegated offers me some evidence that life without Moyes under the current board could become disastrous.

That's not quite what I meant, but I`ll admit it is the general gist. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would have very grave reservations about Kenwright choosing a successor.

I don't believe it's about facing fears; it's about not being prepared to gamble recklessly and more to the point unnecessarily with our future.

IMO, a really good choice by Kenwright may result in slight improvement in our style of play, maybe even finish a place higher. A bad choice by Kenwright could be catastrophic.

Feeling lucky today, Andy? Lucky enough to want to take a gamble when the potential winnings are nowhere near tempting enough to offset the potential loss? It's like taking 10/1 on when the odds are in reality 10/1 against.

Until Kenwright has gone, Moyes MUST stay.

Every time we sign a new player we are hypothesising that the team will be improved with the introduction of the said player. The proof of whether our hypothesis is proved correct will become apparent when we see that player play and how he fits into the team. Sometimes the manager gets it right i.e. Cahill and Baines and sometimes he gets it wrong as in the case of Krøoldrup. We could all hypothesise that if we signed Messi before the start of next season then we would win the league. None of us know this of course but does this mean we should dismiss it completely because it is not an absolute fact.

We are from different planets but we both want the same thing. We both want to see Everton playing attractive football and picking up silverware. I have many reservations as to whether Moyes could ever fulfil this even with a shed load of money, but again that is merely a hypothesis. His Nine years have shown us that he is a competent manager who has what it takes to keep this club chugging along in what many regard as the toughest league in the world. This may not be good enough for a set of fans who aspire to much more than chugging along... but, given the financial restraints he is under, he has won the trust of many fans that are realistic enough to know that, without new investment he is probably the best that we can get at the moment. That last sentence may make you want you to throw cushions at your computer screen and criticise me for a lack of ambition, but nothing could be further from the truth. I am not a Moyes fan, I am an Everton fan.

Kevin, thanks for pointing out my atrocious spelling in my earlier article. I should be dragged outside and beaten to within an inch of my life for such an heinous abuse of the English language. I do of course have the excuse of having a sleep deprived childhood in which my elder brother used to come home at unearthly hours and keep me awake by playing John Cooper Clarke and Monty Python records when I had school the next day... Sadly it always seems to be the English lessons that I used to miss in the mornings!

Why has it been a good time to be Everton manager? He is never going to be sacked; even when he flirted with relegation, his job was never under threat. The emergence of the Sky Four reduced expectation and provided him with the money get out clause. He has had significant money to spend and has been able to break the club record more than once. He has had the goodwill of the majority of Evertonians for years. This is changing and, in my view, rightly so.

Finally, he earns, even allowing for mega inflation, vastly more than any manager in our history. Yes, Steve, it's been nine years of hell for him.

We can all go on about the past and how we 'deserve' to win things because we did 15-20 years ago, but frankly that is classic Kopite behaviour - there's no divine right to win anything, and more so than any other time in our 133 year history, trophy success is intrinsically linked to healthy/wealthy finance. There will always be the odd Stokes and Birminghams, but the real success will be contested be the richest teams, and we aren't one of them.

You're quite right that those with the deepest pockets would be expected to be in the pack chasing silverware, but that shouldn't be an excuse for not trying to prove there's another way. Moyes does a good job & to an outsider we seem to consistently "punch above our weight", but there aren't too many seasons when I don't find myself looking back, comparing the periods of drastic underperformance with those where we suddenly go on a run where we can give anybody a game & get a result, wondering what might have been.

As with the current season it can't all be down to lack of resources when one considers the poorest half of this season was when we had most everybody available & fit ? yet in the second half of the season, as we've lost many first team players & used more fringe players, our results have not only picked up but remained consistently better. Money is a big, big plus but it isn't everything ? otherwise RS wouldn't still be waiting for their next League Title after over twenty years.

The classic example of this was the away leg against Sporting Lisbon where it quickly became apparent that we were being far too cautious, ceding possession & territory, presumably with the objective of hanging on to what we had arrived with. This was against a side apparently low on confidence after a poor run of form domestically, whose supporters didn't turn up in any great number as they expected their team to be taken apart. Moyes made the mistake of handing the initiative to the opposition & got his deserved reward.

I just think that with Moyes we can expect safety, occasional excitement, but no glory.

In the last few months, I have praised and defended Tim Howard; likewise Leon Osman. All season I have praised and defended Jermaine Beckford, hailing him from the outset as an excellent signing. I have defended Bily while criticising Moyes's management of him. Perhaps, most pertinently, I have praised David Moyes for the Krøldrup signing. I said that he made a mistake and his dealing of it was strong courageous management.

I make no apology for criticising David Moyes; in my opinion, when he dithered over his contract he should have gone. I do have positive things to say, David, but over Moyes we differ.

I don't accept that... and judging from his published statements, I doubt that Moyes would either. Moyes himself recognizes and admits these failings. He knows he and we should have done better this season. Your heated defence of him is pointless and unnecessary.

People like you come on here and make opinionated statements that they claim are true, yet all they are is your opinion. You claim to speak for thousands of others when all you can really do is speak for yourself and perhaps a cadre of like-minded friends.

What happens at the match is unique to the matchday atmosphere and nothing but full support (until things go bad!) is expected from all ? that's the point of being there... to SUPPORT the team, the club, the manger...

Meanwhile, individuals can and will come on websites like this to critique or support the manager. Most fans accept this as a reasonable exchange of views... and then there's you who doesn't seem to want anyone daring to question the manager or point up his manifest failings.

Trying to defend and make excuses for the poor performances of the manager and the team, hiding behind this plea of poverty doesn't cut it when you look at the games played and the players available to Moyes (note: nothing to do with anyone else ? Moyes is the Everton manager!). He should have done better this season... far better. Do you really deny that?

Seriously, I wont ask you the silly "who do you want?" question or the even sillier "what do you want?"

I`d like to know, ALL things considered. What do you guys expect?

It's a little pathetic to try to make your view appear correct by drumming up an army of match-goers who obviously must think the same as you... because you've heard some of them sing a song. However, I have heard plenty of critical remarks about Moyes at the match, so the idolatry isn't universal. Although I must confess to not having verified whether any of Moyes's critics, that I've heard, have attended enough fixtures & spent sufficent money to entitle them to an opinion.

I suppose if you hear people booing you assume that's the away support. I haven't claimed there's a backlash so I'm not sure why you raise the matter but that bit of nonsense is a fiction not of my making but your own.

As for an agenda, well I'm not sure what yours is, but as far as I may be deemed to have one I'm merely here to debate the various aspects of the frustrations & joys of being an Evertonian ? I have no agenda & I'm not sure what purpose chatting on this site would serve if I did.

Ever though of joining the Mormons?

My point is that when Moyes arrived we were in shit street and I think that any fan would have taken just safety, let alone, challenging for Europe most seasons and being the so called "best of the rest".

OK, with hindsight, we can all say that we wouldn't be happy with our present trophy-less position but back then? Be honest and think back. I remember hearing that Moyes had taken over and Smith had been sacked when I was on the way to work. I thought "That's it, we're down." I couldn't imagine anyone rescuing us from our precarious position facing relegation. I'd certainly have jumped at the chance to have what we have had these past ten years.