Keep It Together

Terrific article

Two thoughts:

1) Ironically Moyes tenure has been marked with the inconsistency of being able to beat the top teams (at home) yet drawing or losing to the lower placed teams. Is there an argument that it is indeed finance that achieves this consistency (and hence our lack of finance that shows through in our lack of squad depth undermines our attempts at higher placed finishes)?

2) As importantly, and I appreciate I bang on about this a lot, we just don't have the mind set to win the 'must win' games. Whenever a game matters, we shit the bed. We lose. We capitulate. How can we possibly hope to finish 4th if we keep losing the games that matter? I appreciate that we've finished 4th before but that's looking ever more like a fluke

We almost need Moyes to be more arrogant. Arrogant with Bill and demand that he fund some money. And arrogant in his attitude to the opposition in demanding that we beat them and do not accept losses or draws.

It was a pleasure to read such a well composed assessment of the Moyes 'predicament'.

Don't know whether we'll attain fourth spot but your article is worthy of a Pulitzer.

Da iawn was!

Without being able to change all the circumstances surrounding our club, the most immediate we can is to maximize the most from our players. We got them worked hard (some say too hard) during pre-season to get fit; we agonize over tactics (some say to our detriment) to get the most of our supposedly technical qualities.

Perhaps it's time to focus on getting our players to strengthen their resolve to fight back from a goal or two down, and then proceed to finish off the other team – Man Utd does this better than most, recall what they did to Spurs on more than one occasion.

I have never been as depressed in a replica shirt as watching the series of games that can be summed up as the "parked bus" period last year. I got it that the squad at that time did suggest a backs to the wall approach but Moyes took this to levels hardly ever seen before. He even owned up himself that he wouldn't want to watch us play and his demeanour was aweful and uninspiring to say the least. Worse, his tactics didn't work. We were dire, results were dire, the future looked dire. I have never seen this 'parked bus' tactic work for anything other than a very one-off game and then hardly ever as it collapses with one goal conceded. The defeat at City was nonsense given our superb record against them, and the defeats at Anfield and Wembley were an utter disgrace, not just because of who we lost to, but simply because, as later results suggested, they were utterly needless and shameful.

Yet as you say, that January transfer window turned things round and the club deserves a small amount of praise for getting that right. Indeed, it could be that we have found a genuinely special forward at a knock-down price. Overall, the 7th place finish felt like a miracle given the situation pre-January and that reduced the impact of those LFC defeats and truly awful football. At the same time, the constant and increasingly vicious Blue Union debate was adjourned, rightly, and that removed the focus on the still-awful financial situation at the club.

I am still mystified by Barclays' role in as much as I don't understand why, with a clear medium term loan plan in place, we still end up being, apparently, "forced" to repay large chunks of capital off the loan when, as a borrower, we seem to be meeting EVERY requirement of the loan contract? We repay the share of the capital debt as agreed yearly and we pay the agreed interest. The loan should run its course; it will look obscene as they all do when you see how much it cost, but.... What is the reason why Barclays can legally insist on repayment of big capital amounts from transfer fees when the borrower is meeting all obligations? It's a bit like us mere mortals suddenly being told "changed our mind on your mortgage; you now need to pay an additional 20% of the capital or else".

I understand why the BU are so angry when they look at the Barclays and wider financial situation at the club. I don't "support" them in that sense as I think the approach won't work but I respect that it feels impossible to argue with the financial assessment. We could go on like this now for some time given the incredible TV deal, but it's only by being able to slowly build the squad that Moyes will ever get us to overcome the nightmare that descends on us most transfer windows. Yet if, as now seems horribly likely, Baines is about to leave, it's yet again one step forward and two, some might say three, steps backwards. Losing Baines will in my view be as close to losing Rooney as it gets. He is an absolutely pivotal player who will not be replaced with anything like the influence he exerts on our team. It will be a dark day for the club, much darker than many realise.

So where does all this take us Lyndon? I think your assessment is spot-on, ie, that it truly is THIS season that will tip the balance. I'm not losing sleep about whether Moyes stays or goes. I respect his achievements here under absurd pressure and thank him for keeping us in the Premier League when others have crashed and burned. But his wheeling and dealing simply has to generate a degree of progression this year. If he sells Baines and gets to keep £8m of the fee he must spend it wisely because he will get nothing else... the possible few million from sales of Victor etc will only fund the signing-on fees for our good looking "free" transfers and maybe SP. Perhaps Donovan could be persuaded to stop wasting his talent in the States and spend two full years with us, and spending £6m on that project would slightly ease the loss of Bainsey. The wheeling and dealing does really look quite useful and if the names mentioned again today prove accurate then by the end of the week we will have what is still a small, but improved squad... the key thing will as ever be, is the loss of one, and please say it's just one, top top player, be balanced by some clever signings and the sight, at last, of Ross Barkley and the mercurial Rodders coming through and justifying the hype?

As for the "Club" – Blue Union thing and the longer term future I really haven't a clue; whilst saying that I don't see the BU approach working, mainly because they won't bully BK out or shift the other Board members unless they see it as right for them, I, like thousands of others, drive the BU crazy because I criticise their approach yet have no clever answers of my own! All I hope for is that the Club somehow bobbles along without going bust and ever so slowly the team continues to punch above its weight until finally actually knocking someone out. Not a very impressive analysis or particularly positive, but it's all I've got; without the even "just-reasonable" level of investment we crave, I don't see what the alternative is?

Congratulations
COYB!

It lasted two days: Bluekipper Sunday night: We have it on good authority Baines is on his way.,...

That great left hand side. How could we look to bring it back (Pienaar) only to rip it away again?

When he's good, he's very very good, but when he's bad he's awful.

Just about sums up 90 per cent of his seasons in charge I think, never average, either brilliant or shite!

Garside's article made my blood boil, some of his points were ridiculous and to call him a journalist in an established newspaper when I have seen lots of good articles here is so insulting!

The only thing I would disagree with, and as Roberto said with one of them, is the Fiorentina and Benfica games. We were unbelievably good in the second game and not for Frey (who was amazing!) we would have gone through.

Also, I watched the Benfica game at home, we would never have beaten them. I do not think I have seen many games in recent memory where we were more outclassed. I remember Di Maria made Hibbert look like an amateur footballer. They were just far too superior and I don't think we could have anything to deny that defeat.

Great, well written article though.

I also see this as a make-or-break year... but, less optimistically, I consider a return to 2006-09 to be make – not break. I don't know where else Moyes would go. I always thought that when the Spurs job comes up, he'll be gone; well, that came and went. Perhaps, Newcastle? I do not see Man Utd at all... Don't know what people are whitering on about there.

As a purist who wants to see good football played the 'right way' and I'm not being greedy and asking for Barca style, simply have a go and not park the bus, even against lesser teams at home, I cannot forgive the guy for that semi-final last year, playing countless games with no recognised strikers at all (even when we had them fit and sitting on the bench), making numerous appaling substitutions, being tacticly inflexible, seemingly failing to learn from his mistakes, and generally having such a defensive mindset against the 'better' sides away from home.

For all the talk of lack of finances, his 'style' of football is at times so maddeningly conservative and defensive that at some points it's almost made me feel like giving up on the sport all together! I have actually been embarrassed (many times) when watching live Everton games with mates who support other clubs, and we've served up a perfect example of why people should take up watching paint dry instead. The great finish to last season has to be placed next to the awful/abysmal first 5 months. (Even he doesn't know why we've started off badly every season for around 5 years now.)

It also does not matter how little money a club has, to go a couple of games in a row, against not great opposition, and not even manage a single shot on target... what is that about? Playing Saha and Cahill up front for about 16 games in a row, when both were woefully off form and it was clear to everyone in the country... what is that about?

Yes our squad was thin but if something is blatantly not working you have to try something else — Vellios, Drenthe, Barkely, McAleny, Baxter etc — any of them would have been better than the Saha/Cahill partnership in the first 5 months... why did he do nothing?

Finance is always trotted out in defence of Moyes but we're not THAT skint and do have a lot of good players (on relatively high wages). IF we were completely skint, we would not be able to pay Fellaini £75k/week, Cahill £50k, Yobo £50k, Moyes £65k, (fucking Anichebe £30k/week!) etc.

Yes, we currently make a loss, mainly down to poor management; we could/should be trying to manage the wagebill a lot better, but that's another topic. Also, there are loads of players on frees (yes there is generally a small signing on fee) but we have hardly signed any in the past. We could/should be bolstering up the squad so as to not always have one of the thinnest in the league. wE Should have cashed on on Jag for £12-14m last summer etc.

Why the fuck have we stiil not solved the issue on the right wing? Ever since Shandy Andy didn't work out about 6-7 years ago, we've always had this problem. Does the manager not realise we have/had a hole there? I just hope Naismith can plug this although he looks like another 'utility' player.

I could go on but to sum up: Moyes has generally been a safe pair of hands but I still believe that most decent managers would have us finishing in the top half without too much trouble with the squad we have. With our squad, there is no excuse for playing god awful football at times. Granted, teams have a bad day now and then, but we have consistently played shite football for long stretches over the years.

The end of last season gives us hope (deja vu...) but I will wait and see what the manger does this time round, having managed to get some fresh blood before kick-off. If we start the season poorly again, what are peoples' excuses for him going to be this time round?

For me, he has this last year of his contract to prove he can finally 'go for it' instead of defending 0-0 most games. If he still has little support from the board but takes another bumper payday contract, then he'll show he has no real ambition and is cosy where he is.

I predict yet another terrible start to the season under DM. He places far too much emphasis on hard work, and more hard work. The pre-season photos the club posts on Facebook say a lot. Maybe parking the bus and supreme fitness go hand in hand? I'd trade picking out a forward pass for uber-fitness any day.

The big issue for me is the poisoned chalice of a successful assault on a top 4 finish. Look what happened last time. Not pretty at all and killed our league campaign as well. Even the Europa league has the same effect unless you have the squad to cope, which we don't.

Clubs that scrape into the CL get their arses kicked and end up potentially injured, tired and dejected. All before the season has really got started. Be careful what you wish for...

The obvious exceptions are the 4th and 17th seasons.

On the subject of David Moyes, I am fairly ambivalent. I think he is a very honourable, dignified and honest man with an incredible work rate which is reflected in his team. He has produced honest pros but cannot manage personalities with egos.

However, the thing that makes a winning side is quality players and unity across management and supporters which I believe is difficult to achieve while Kenwright is still around.

We talk about inconsistencty but there is no greater inconsistency than the supporters themselves. Goodison can be rocking on occasions but like a mausoleum in other games.

We cannot decide whether Blue Union are good or bad for us. Some supporters even feel Bill is doing a good job. We all need to feel optimistic but it is so difficult in these circumstances.

What we really need is hope and faith; if we can keep the squad together and add one or two quality signings, I do believe that could be the turning point as long as the supporters buy into to it too. As we know, they can be the twelfth man. We can do it despite the board.

COYB.

I have to agree with a couple of others about the Fiorentina and Benfica games though, and I've mentioned on another thread that this idea of 'choking' seems a bit OTT for me. I would class choking as getting to a semi/final and losing to a clearly inferior side (Arsenal v Birmingham 2011) or losing very heavily in a seemingly closely matched game (Spurs V Chelsea 2012, Bolton v Stoke 2011). Neither of those apply to our games against Chelsea or Liverpool where we were underdogs and lost in reasonably close games.

I also don't understand this fixation with the pre-season schedule being at fault for poor starts. If it's too tiring – as a lot of people claim – then shouldn't we get worse as the season progresses, not better? Also, although we have had some poor starts they haven't all followed the same pattern. In 2010-11 I thought we looked fit, played good football and were better than most of the opposition but couldn't put the ball in the net, whereas in 2011-12 I thought we looked devoid of ideas, second best to most teams and completely lacking in confidence.

I don't think I'll ever forgive and forget the Anfield debacle but the semi-final defeat I can stand. Overall I think that the only downside for the club is that Moyes could leave.

I don't agree that realism is defeatism, realism is recognising what we can achieve as a club not what we'd like to see them achieve. Everton, club or fans, has no right to expect success just because we periodically achieved it in our past. History is meaningless.

There lies the dilemma with Moyes and why he so divides opinion.

He's more of a "porridge made with cold water and no sugar" man. Probably better for you... Dour and depressing to watch at times.

DM is also very loyal to his big-name players and, as shown last season, will stick with them through thick and thin (the emphasis is on the thin). It cant be a coincidence that in each of the last 5 seasons we have been relegation material to start with but top 4 material by the end of the season.

The Emphasis should be on playing to your strengths and at no stage last season were Cahill and Saha our strengths. A stubborn man will stick with this for so long but a bloody-minded one will stick with it for 3/4 months.

All I feel we need is a settled squad (not carrying anyone) and someone with a bit of creative thinking in the coaching front (not Round).

Now we have a prolific striker, and a hopefully fit Naismith, we surely cannot give every team a ten point start again.

If Moyes can only get the team motivated when they are up shit creek in the league - then he alone must shoulder that responsibility.

After thouroughly enjoying the Euro's this year, there were lots of different formations on show, and some exciting football to compliment the way teams were set up.

If we revert to the old 4-5-1 for every game when it is clearly not working, or the personnel don't suit, Moyes really will cement his career as a one-trick pony in my eyes.

If we can watch some exciting stuff and see belief and passion at Goodison this season, that will do for me.

And a cup.

Imagine standing next to an Arsenal supporter when they conceded eight (going on 28) at Old Trafford.
Or next to a United fan watching the team he thought were top dogs having six worked up their arses by their biggest rivals on their own midden. then watching a shell shocked Fergie ditch his strikers and adopt a KITAP1 attitude for the next three months afterwards. Or Sitting with the Spurs fans when they conceded 11 in their two biggest games of the season. Or with the Geordies at WHL. Did you see the way they supported their team even as we wiped the Goodison floor with them?

Evertonians (the older ones ) have a very skewed view of the past, they seem to be able to forget that for all but one of the past 25 years we have been garbage, the decade before Moyes got here we were worse than garbage.

When City played with two defensive midfielders for most of last season and much of this, their fans had every reason to be embarrassed. When Chelsea played their 1-10-0 formations in Europe their fans should have been embarrassed too. These clubs have spent billions and were playing anti-football.

Fans of other teams get behind their sides when it's not going well, they support their team even when they play defensively – recognising that defending is an art and also a crucial part of the game. They know that even with their multi-million pound squads they will not play well every week.

If a poll was conducted amongst all Premier League football fans as to which club was most admired, we would piss it, absolutely piss it.

I`m far more embarressed by prideless Evertonians who want to pay homage to other clubs than I could ever be by my team.

Watching Everton at times (far too many times) last season was seriously embarrassing. The football was embarrassing, and the manager moreso. Whether you were with other fans or sat in front of the telly made no difference.

Once again your weak attempt to categorise everyone with a different view as blind to reality will fall flat on it's/your face.

Most recognize that other clubs try to win and win playing well. Nobody on TW has ever said we should play brilliant, incisive football all the time, only that we should try. We didn't and haven't for the first half of probably the last 5 seasons.

Chelsea, City and plenty of the other sides you see fit to slate always, always carried a threat even when they were struggling. Chelsea put a few past Barca and scored against Bayern in the final. We never even had shot's on target at HOME to fodder like Stoke last year.

Stop making a fool of yourself and stick to the football instead of sly point scoring.

I feel a pang of pity for people who feel actual embarrassment around their mates, simply because said mates chose to support a different football club.

As I asked before, what teams did his mates support?

I wonder if you were a Chelsea fan would you have been embarrassed to have got through to the Champions league Final having been played off the park by Barcelona. Not only were they totally outclassed, they adopted the most negative tactics I have ever seen from an English club, both home and away.

Then to compound it they were also outplayed in the final,another game they should have been well beaten, and they were outplayed when it was 11 against 11.

Or is the real truth like most football fans is it dont care how we played as long as we win, and I bet the Chelsea fans didn't feel one ounce of embarrassment.

IMO there is a generation who either don't know or choose to ignore the history of this illustrious club, for them "7th" really IS success, the "7th place trophy" it's ironically referred to.

In addition it matters not a jot how we get there – KITAP1 BY DEFAULT or downright surrender if it suits, a justification is a mere keyboard rant away.

No, it wasn't a strange season, it was archetypal Moyes: the curate's egg of good in part absolutely dreadful mostly... very likely it will be the same this season.

The reasons/excuses?

Not interested anymore, they've been done to death, but I do know high earning short contract work means you produce or your gone (see every other EPL club and their managerial hstory).

I don't class 7th at any price and clubs such as Portsmouth and Cardiff reaching more cup finals than us as producing.

How he's taking £3.5 million, and rising, out of this institution whilst it's on the bones of its arse is so ludicrous it's become hilarious.

Chelsea winning the CL using those tactics is a little bit different to us playing weaker sides at home and failing to register a single shot on goal.

You're right. We were desperately unlucky not to win that game.

I was hesitant to include it but did so to round out the point of view of a neutral totting up the various episodes, as Garside was, where we have failed to win on the big occasion under Moyes to create their picture of his tenure.

On another note, I can see this thread about to go off the rails as people weigh in in response to Denis R and Dave W. Can I ask that this be nipped in the bud immediately because the level of most of the responses prior to that is a credit to this website.

I just don't get the Chelsea references. Moyes's football has never won anything and it never has looked like winning anything. But that's to put all the emphasis on results. I'm a fan who first and foremost wants to watch the games... wants to watch Everton play football. The result comes after that; always has and for me, always will.

And ironically, when Everton do play football, they usually get better results than when they play embarrassing crap. Tony (#069), for me it was embarrassment at watching what we would try to do with the ball; at times it was just excruciating to watch. That's what I believe to be more pertinent for Evertonians who care about such things. Remember, as stated by Moyes himself, it was so awful at times last season, even he wouldn't have paid to watch it! Why therefore does repeating the fact trigger attempted denials?

A central point of the article was Garside's critique, which many fumed over at the time, but Lyndon now says "it's hard to argue with the basic tenets of his argument." Hmmm...

For me the final straw was away at West Ham a couple of seasons ago. They were bottom of the table and we started with no strikers, and brought them on way too late. Argue want you want about 4 - 6 - 0 but we certainly are not Spain. I was embarrsed to be an Evertonian that day, and such awful negative tactics were shown to a live Sky audience.
Despite Moyes finishes whilst on a tiny budget, this is why Spurs et al have never made a move for the services of David Moyes and never will.

I find it really bizzarre that people who regularly compare our team unfavourably to others when wanting to score a point, suddenly get irate when the shortcomings of other teams are listed and favourable comparisons are drawn.
I find it equally bizzarre that people are embarressed in front of the fans of other clubs - perhaps because, to me they are inconsequential.
I do however take your point about the thread going off the rails

Anyway, back to the article.

Nobody can say with any degree of certainty that we will be challenging for a CL place, but I fully agree with your belief that we should at least be counting ourselves in the hunt
Of course we need the stars to be correctly aligned, we do need the wind to be blowing in the right direction and we will need others to falter, but we do have a chance and no matter how slim others say it is, I expect everyone at Everton to fight all season to take it

If, by November, there is any thought of relegation the the season will have been defined as business as usual. The problem to me is that even with huge improvement we are highly unlikely to make up the ground to achieve Champions League. Therefore we simply cannot take any sort of last chance financial gamble.

If we can get Pienaar and get in one unexpected loan, say someone like Adam Johnson who might just jump at the chance of first team football and a real challenge, then who knows what could happen. We might achieve the "intermediate salvation" that Lyndon refers to..

But guys, Moyes and Kenwright are going nowhere. If Moyes keeps us up this year then the riches of the new telly deal kicks in next summer, what was some of the figures quoted, worth on average an extra £30m a year than the current deal to each club?

They're going nowhere lads, it's groundhog day for the next 3-4 years at least. What odds on the operational expenses of £27m increasing upwards without explanation? It's a pity this extra income can't be used to pay off some of the debts first.

This new deal is great for the riches offered, sadly the price we will pay will be Billy staying and not letting go of the trainset, he'll never sell up now. Which means Moyes will get another bumper contract and we'll be told 7th is like winning the champions league for a club of our means.

It's going to be more of the same lads, see you all in February 2013, can't be bothered with our extended pre-season (July to January) this year lol, only joking...about the pre-season...

I like watching football in general and if Everton are not playing I will happily watch another prem game, or spanish or german game etc (I live in Germany and have a season ticket at Eintracht Frankfurt). I make exceptions though for some teams where I know that the playing style is going to be awful to watch, e.g. stoke or any team managed by Sam Alladyce. Sometimes when Everton matches are being shown live, I will persuade a few mates to come to the pub to watch the blues. When I do this and we serve up a dose of utter steaming turd for no apparently sane reason, its a little embarassing as you can imagine.

Yes all clubs have bad days in the office but we have had long periods in the past where have been utter garbage for no apparent reason. That includes playing crap against the lesser teams and even playing against them with no recognised striker, not managing a shot on target etc etc. If you can only think of one game last season where we were crap to watch, I suggest you get the DVD of virtually every one of the first 15-20 league games and review the 'highlights'.

Moyes's team has always lacked genuine width and pace. Part his fault in buying the players he has, and part the nature of the cloth (the quick good ones are usually in big demand). His sides have had a solid defensive shape and have at times played with a certain flair. His side up until the FA Cup Final was a good outfit but with not much depth. Shore away Arteta, Jags and Yakubu and this was cruelly exposed. Take away a defensive rock and goal-getter in Lescott and it's unsurprising that the team is suddenly going backwards, particularly when you gamble on players like Saha, or loan signings that either worked (Fernandes, Donovan) or failed (Jo, Drenthe, Straq, Gravesen).

Yes, Everton have players coming to their end, but he always has the ability to bring in cheap/free alternatives that usually work out – Naismith, Gibson etc. Some young players would do far better playing and making it with him, than sitting on the bench elsewhere.

I think it's the most important one. I hate to say it, but if Kenwright doesn't sell more than one 'top name' and add who we all want, then this is by far the best looking squad we have had for a long time.

I therefore agree with you that it then becomes Moyes's 'defining' season. If he can't get this team performing, then he never will at the club. I know what Moyes has done, I see the stability etc. I do give him credit for this. But it's now time to see what we can do positively, none of the "get to 40 points and see what happens" / "knife to a gunfight" shite. This squad won't get relagated, and finishing 7th or 14th? — doesn't really bother me; I would rather have a go from the off and see where it takes us.

The key word in the article for me is the word "paradox" which I think truly sums up how so many of us feel.

Yes, under the circumstances DM has done a sterling job but that conservatism really does rankle when you think of the big occasions when balls of steel were required. The Carling Cup semi against Chelsea; the FA Cup final against Chelsea; nearly all of the derby matches (bar the 3-0 thrashing at Goodison).

"Keep it together" as a title also kind of sums things up. We all wish for "Onwards and upwards" but Everton FC and "reality check" kind of go hand-in-hand.

I read another article recently which ironically sums up all fans' mentality everywhere: if we can just hold on to our best players, we are but a few new signings here and there from cracking the league.

I'm afraid it just doesn't work that way. The Mancs, Chelsea and Arsenal will be playing Champions League football come 2013-14. Unless we overhaul the entire infrastructure and investment with an Arab.

Which is way, sad in all ways, the battles against the RS are so important to Evertonians.

What am I missing?

Are ppl expecting Jelavic to stay fit ALL season and to maintain his ridiculous scoring record?

Are ppl expecting us to find the money to sign Pienaar and for him to maintain his form throughout?

That we WON'T sell either Fellaini and/or Bains? Even IF we keep them both, what happens if Bains misses 8 games through injury? Yes Distin did a job there but he wasn't Bains.

Players WILL get injured. Players WILL lose form. FACT.

We won't be 'unlucky', we'll be a normal team with normal luck.

We don't have the squad size to finish 4th, we don't have the mentality to finish 4th, we don't have the luck required to finish 4th..........WE WON'T FINISH 4TH!!!!!!

Sorry to shatter dreams on here - I feel like I'm telling my kid that Santa doesn't exist but let's get real chaps. A good cup run and finishing 6th-8th is about all we can hope for

I didn't really agree with a fair amount of the article as I felt it was an attempt to placate both sides of the Moyes debate while skirting over some major issues that have held the club back.

It's not only the performance of the team certain fans have issue with in regard to Moyes.

His unwavering support for a fraud chairman to the point he attacked some of his own clubs fans, his belittling comments about how we shouldn't ever expect to beat them at their ground, or indeed any side that may spend more and his baffling stance toward the media are all relevant issues that will have as big an effect this season as last.

I chose not to comment as it seemed to be going along the lines of a back slapping thread of little substance until Dave again tried his revisionist nonsense that seems to appear anytime anybody suggests Moyes may not be all he's cracked up to be.

The real credit to this site is that a real debate isn't missed in the interests of politeness, not that we all spend our time agreeing with each other.

All friends rip each other about their respective teams, but embarrassment? Never (Even the 7-0 drubbing was wiped aside with the fact we had just got into the Champion's League qualifiers and the pints didn't taste any less good that night)

Why would I feel embarrassment because my mate chose to support the Devil's Spawn than the Royal Blue?

Back to the thread, 4th? Not a chance!

Jags and Johnny is my number 1 partnership anyway and Duffy proved he can substitute if necessary. Neville gives more off the field than on it and isn't a regular anyway. Cahill.. We've already replaced with Naismith and have thr unproven Barkley in the wings. There comes a time when the old guys can become a bottleneck to growth, which is the case for us now!

I think that this will be a pivotal season (although it feels likethat more often than not), because if Moyes doesn't acheive something special (silverwear or CL) I think he'll go.

This doesn't sadden me, but the points about his ability must jibe as he is undoubtedly a highly ambitious individual. Kase, you suggest that he should be "more arrogant"... while I hope that last season has taught him that he shouldn't be. Football's not rocket science, but it follows basic laws - e.g. if you have no supply to you striker(s) they can't score, especially if they're expected to be defending their own D or if they're not even strkers.

Dumping players (that outside of your favourites) the second they make a mistake is not condusive to adventurous football. Likewise shouting "move forward" from the sidelines when you've drilled in dour, play-it-safe football (and demonstrated that should one try anything else and it not work out that they'll spend the forseeable future on the bench) incredibly doesn't work.

I hope that his seasons we get off to a good start. I hope that when we are hit with injuries Moyes provides balance rather than attempts to accommodate certain players. I hope that he offers younger players a chance, for longer the 5-10 minutes before consigning them to the reseves for the remainder of the season. I hope that he makes appropriate substitutions without waiting an additional 5-15 minutes just to see that it's tactically clearly still not working or that an individual is struggling. I hope that he has beleif in the players when we enter games that we really should be winning, rather than lining us up as though we're facing Barcelona at The Nou Camp rather than Southampton at home. Finally I hope he'snot forced to sell and if we do sell he is giving enough time and money to fill and hopefully improve gaps.

Yeah, I know... I'm a dreamer.

If I ask some mates to make their way to join me to watch some football on the box and this 'entertainment' ends up being anything but, with people scratching their heads with a 'why the hell did I bother for that?' look on their face, then its a bit embarrassing when you support the team that caused this.

I'm proud to be a blue but but get embarrased when when we offer up shite for no good reason. E.g. manu fans would undoubtadly have been embarrased when they got thrashed by Man City. (For them though that at least was only one game, for Everton we had almost half a season!)

If the above does not make sense, well I tried and we'll simply agree to disagree.

I know you have explained it, but embarrassment is not a feeling I wound have if we had to sit through a crap game. I am in the pub with my mates enjoying the company and the ale, not felling embarrassed because we got beet and they happen to support teams who have been camped in the top 4 for decades.

ps, Villa? and YOU feel embarrassed? Strewth!

I can see how you might get the mickey taken a bit after a bad performance, but if that really causes you feelings of genuine embarrassment it's a bit worrying - you only support the club not play for them. As Tony said, it's especially unnecessary if they support a side like Villa!

My experience of watching Everton with others is pretty much the polar opposite, with most people saying how well we're doing and how we can be proud of the club - to the point of being patronising.

I've been embarressed or angered by plent of Everton performances — and occasionally disgusted.

I think we can definitely get somewhere between 4th and 6th, just need to get our shit together, keep it together and go for it.

COYB!

3rd it is then. I like the way you think.

On the subject of us finishing 4th:

- No decent wingers / wide players as yet
- No decent right back
- No decent cover at left back
- One excellent central midfielder (Felli), two good ones (Gibson, Ossie). Is that enough?
- One quality striker (Jela), one unknown (Naismith).

If we sign Pienaar and keep Baines and Felli, we have largely the same squad as last year + Naismith, so 6th is a good target. To finish 4th, we need someone wide right like Donovan for a full season, a better right back and a more established striker than either Vic or Vellios to come into the side in case Jela is not fit or off form.

One of the main talking points for me this off season is Tim Cahill: what do we do with him? In my opinion, his legs have totally gone and his refusal to retire from the Aussie national team means that he doesn't get the required rest needed when we have international breaks. I think the days of him playing behind the main striker should be over and he isn't mobile enough to play central midfield. Even though it's hard to say it because he has been such a legend, I hope he buggers off to China and Moyes can use these funds to get two young players in, like Matty Philips or Luc Castaignos.