Season › 2012-13 › News Reds win Liver Bird copyright fight Lyndon Lloyd , 14 December, 30comments | Jump to most recent Liverpool FC have had their copyright claim over the liver bird symbol that adorns their crest upheld by the European Union's Trade Marks and Designs Registration Office, a move that seemingly supercedes what many feel is the historical precedence of the bird as belonging to the whole of the City of Liverpool. Aflie Hincks, a former City councillor from Fazakerly, applied to have the decision revoked after gathering hundreds of pages of evidence that the bird has been a wider symbol of Liverpool and he is disappointed with the judgement. “I was absolutely convinced that with the amount of evidence we had sent in and the amount of information they had we would persuade them it was a symbol of our city." If anything, Mr Hincks feels that the trademark belongs to the family of Carl Bartels, the German architect who designed the birds on the Royal Liver Building. “In the First World War Mr Bartels was sent to the Isle of Man as a prisoner of war because he was German," Mr Hincks said. “The city dignitaries were so embarrassed that we had a German architect design the birds they went back to the blueprints and destroyed them." Mr Hincks is looking to continue his fight by trying to uncover further evidence to bolster his case. “I spoke to his great-grandson yesterday and he is trying to get evidence we can use, but obviously there are no blueprints we can produce." The judgement from the EU's TMDRO stated: “Although the community trademark may carry connotations of the city of Liverpool to certain consumers, just as many consumers would see the mark simply as a stylised representation of a bird and would take no geographic meaning from it. “It must be borne in mind that the Liver Bird is not a state emblem for the city of Liverpool.” Everton FC also have a historical link with the Liver Bird, with an early Club crest featuring a representation of the bird, examples of which can be seen in the Everton Collection. Quotes or other material sourced from Liverpool Echo Reader Comments (30) Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer Colin Fitzpatrick 1 Posted 14/12/2012 at 23:20:54 That this spineless rag, the Echo, has deemed it necessary to highlight that Alfie Hinks is an Evertonian is ridiculous and an example of their crass stupidity. The comments posted online, on the Echo website, focus only on the issue of Alfie being an Evertonian when this has nothing to do with his football allegiance; what is more relevant is that he’s an ex Liverpool City councillor which is far more relevant than him being involved with KEIOC for five months five years ago. We've written to them asking if they’ll be putting as much effort into their brand of investigative journalism when they finally pluck up the courage to reveal that one of their own, a Liverpool supporter, employed by Everton, has, what can only be described as wrongfully and maliciously, revoked the season ticket of a fifty season veteran Evertonian, banned him from Goodison Park , had a solicitor send a series of allegations for which they have no supporting evidence which ultimately led two members of the Police football intelligence unit to visit his home and issue the primary school teacher concerned with a recordable verbal warning; an action which has now seen three complaints to the IPCC upheld. This paper got away with murder over Kirkby, how they colluded with the club to mislead the fans and shareholders; never forget they were identified as owing the club in leaked emails.Whilst I have a lot of time for some journalists at the Echo, the people that run it continually confirm that they're a waste of space. Patrick Murphy 2 Posted 14/12/2012 at 23:24:14 Until I read this article I hadn't realised that the City Council had done a deal with the Dark Side in 2010, nothing new there then. I dislike the scavenging nature of the bird (Cormorant) and what it now represents.Wikipedia states or it would if I wrote the last two letters.Cormorants and shags are medium-to-large seabirds. All are fish-eaters, dining on small eels, fish, and even water snakes. They dive from the surface, though many species make a characteristic half-jump as they dive, presumably to give themselves a more streamlined entry into the CL. Patrick Murphy 3 Posted 14/12/2012 at 23:41:22 Does this surprise us Blues?The Norwegian municipalities of Røst, Loppa and Skjervøy have cormorants in their coat-of-arms. The species depicted in heraldry is most likely to be the Great Cormorant, the most familiar species in Europe.The cormorant was the disguise used by Satan in Milton's Paradise Lost. The cormorant was significant as a symbol of "true Life/ Thereby regain’d," and was ironically used by Satan. Satan sat on top of the Tree of Life as a cormorant in his first attempt to deceive and tempt Eve.That's enough evidence to suggest that they truly are the Dark Side! Dennis Stevens 4 Posted 15/12/2012 at 00:22:29 What about the TV sitcom? Derek Thomas 5 Posted 15/12/2012 at 02:54:00 RS, you get exactly what it says on the tin. In the light of these types of situation, past, present and no doubt, future, how many times do I have to repeat it. Peter Thistle 6 Posted 15/12/2012 at 04:13:42 They can have it. I hate that bird and all it stands for. Bob Willis 7 Posted 15/12/2012 at 09:14:48 ''I dislike the scavenging nature of the bird (Cormorant) and what it now represents.''More of a Shag than a Cormorant - don't you think? Bob Willis 8 Posted 15/12/2012 at 09:17:45 PM 100 - Sorry - hadn't scrolled down enough to see you mention the Shag.Still I'd rather a Good Shag than a Heraldic Cormorant.I'll get my coat! Ciarán McGlone 9 Posted 15/12/2012 at 09:19:16 Maybe we should trade mark Prince Ruperts Tower..Point or order. Cormorants are not scavengers. Dave Roberts 10 Posted 15/12/2012 at 10:32:01 All carnovores are scavengers. Every carnivore will take an effortless meal if one is available. A Cormorant will take a dead animal from the sea if one is available. Barry Rathbone 11 Posted 15/12/2012 at 10:36:24 Would have thought a lame duck would have been more appropriate - irritating gobshites. Dave Roberts 12 Posted 15/12/2012 at 10:45:58 LFC would be more accurately compared to a vulture. Opportunist, primarily a scavenger but which will kill small animals if given the chance. Not averse to sticking its head into the entrails of dead animals and rummaging around for titbits in order to preserve itself. From now on the Liver birds will forever remind me of the ugly beasts.In the end we are Everton and in the words of that Mexican bandit in High Sierra....' we don't need no(fucking) badges!' For most of my time as an Evertonian we didn't wear a badge on the shirt. We didn't need one....everybody knew who we were. Dave Roberts 13 Posted 15/12/2012 at 11:03:29 1878-1920 no badge1921-1929 no badge just embroidered EFC1930 no badge!931 no badge just embroidered EFC1932-1972 no badge1973-1978 no badge just embroidered EFC1979 started wearing badge with occasional reversion to EFCYears with no badge 84Years with EFC 14Years with badge 34 Andy Hegan 14 Posted 15/12/2012 at 11:21:13 The bird is a symbol of the city and must be preserved as such. Let's not get sidetracked . Some posters on here have either given in or aren't bothered. Ciarán McGlone 15 Posted 15/12/2012 at 11:30:04 Scavenging is a particular behavioural trait. Gulls correctly identified as scavengers. The Cormorant family are not. And all carnivores wont take pre-killed food.Wrong on both counts. Derek Thomas 16 Posted 15/12/2012 at 12:06:25 Dave that would The Treasure of the Sierra Madre and they were the Federales, you know, the mounted police. And no we don't need no stinkin badges Dave Roberts 17 Posted 15/12/2012 at 12:25:36 Derek....you're right.Ciaran....you're wrong. Colin Potter 18 Posted 15/12/2012 at 14:34:47 Dave, it was also used in Blazing Saddles Alex Kociuba 19 Posted 15/12/2012 at 14:41:38 Came on here to see the team news and ended up researching cormorants for 20 minutes! I think after reading up they are expert hunters of fish and traditionally used by fishermen in Asia. I think its safe to assume they aren't scavengers; they don't 'feed on dead or decaying matter' like a rat or a fly. Tony Marsh 20 Posted 15/12/2012 at 14:41:42 Anyone on here saying they despise or don't like the Liver Birds can not be from the City of Liverpool. The Liverbird is a symbol of the city and one of the most famous land marks in the world. There's nothing better than taking an out of towner down to the Pier Head or on the Ferry and watching them stare in awe at the Magnificent architecture on the water front.I wish we had a Blue Liverbird on our club shirts as it represents the city and would be instantly recognisable to people who don't know Everton FC is actually in this City. What next LfC trade mark the name of the city as thier own... It's a fucking joke.How can the Liver bird belong to the Redshite?Those of you saying fuck it really don't get it at all... You should be ashamed of yourselves. Ciarán McGlone 21 Posted 15/12/2012 at 16:02:10 Dave,I don't argue on academic stuff unless I know I'm right.Countless species of birds, snakes and various other predators who will die before eating pre-killed food.To call a species a 'scavenger', it would need to be a predominant part of its feeding strategy.Next. Robert Patterson 22 Posted 15/12/2012 at 18:33:33 Tony,bought a BLUE square,about 8 inches by 8,with the CITY OF LIVERPOOL printed underneath a WHITE LIVER BIRD from a shop on the ALBERT DOCK. Sits on my cars rear window. IT'S MY CITY. Andy Meighan 23 Posted 15/12/2012 at 20:39:40 What can we really expect from that rag, the Liverpool FC Echo? It's a fucking disgrace... They've always erred on the side of our lovable neighbours. Having been a supporter of our fabulous club or rather going to Goodison Park for 45 years, I can honestly say that rag (as Colin so eloquently put it) has never come down on the side of Everton FC and its loyal supporters. To me, I think this paper regards us as just an afterthought to the city's premier club. I know Alfie personally and only spoke with him recently after the Spurs game, although this topic never cropped up. I can understand where he's coming from but personally they can shove the bird where the sun doesn't shine... I don't want nothing to do with it. Nil satis nisi optimum. Bj�rn-Ivar Pedersen 25 Posted 16/12/2012 at 00:30:55 Well Patrick Murphy #100, those communities you are referring to is some hell of a places to live in so that's why the bird of S.... hehe.BTW you seem to be very familiar with Norway, how come? Jon Ferguson 26 Posted 16/12/2012 at 11:00:36 I agree with Tony Marsh. The bird belongs to the city. How can they copyright it? Will the Liver Building need to take down the birds? Will the council need to change the city centre bins (most have a golden Liverbird on)? It's a decision that needs to be challenged! Patrick Murphy 27 Posted 16/12/2012 at 11:38:21 I am only familiar with Norway courtesy of Wikipedia, I used the Norwegian reference because so many of the dark sides supporters seem to come from there, but good to see a fellow blue bucking the trend. COYB John Dickinson 28 Posted 16/12/2012 at 13:54:18 The people who say let them have it (the liver bird) don't understsnd the implications: Liverpool FC can strip every business in Liverpool, England, Europe of the bird... sue them all... charge them all to use it, generating hundreds off millions off pounds for their club to be spent on players, stadium the club... And it doesn't belong to them — it's the city's and Everton used it before them. So we should fight too keep it part off the city. If we don't fight it, you might as well not bother because you've already given up...! Robert Patterson 29 Posted 16/12/2012 at 18:50:33 On my post,where I said it's MY CITY,GO INTO the TOWN HALL look at the silverware and tell me the LIVERBIRD belongs to the DARKSIDE.L.F.C. Barry Rathbone 30 Posted 16/12/2012 at 19:03:21 Apologies to those more switched on and strongly condemning this.You are correct, as a scouser born in walton 55yrs ago and exiled to the midlands these past 30 yrs it needs fighting - it is important. Fuck off LFC you shifty gets you know full well the implicit message this sends out, we are a part of this city as much as you indeed without us you wouldn't be here.No we shouldn't quietly roll over for it. Anto Byrne 31 Posted 17/12/2012 at 06:33:39 When I was a kid, me dad said the liver bird was an extinct bird that once lived in Liverpool — hence the name "Liver". It seems dads don't know everything, eh? Add Your Comments In order to post a comment, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site. » Log in now Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and Talking Points submissions across the site. About these ads