Moyes calls for patience going forward

We are really missing Mirallas going forward for us who will hopefully form a good partnership with Coleman down that right hand side. Gibson controlling the midfield is a big loss too, you only realise how good of a job he does for us when he's not playing. He doesn't try to be clever, but just does the simple things really well.

I still think Moyes will bring one or two new faces in though, however wether they are loans or transfers remains to be seen.

Patience going forward ON or OFF the pitch is the key, and something we evertonians are only too used to.

Also all the strikers who play for Moyes stop scoring after a few months. Beattie, Johnson, Yak, Saha and now Jelly. Its the Moyes work ethic. Strikers should just try to get on the end of things in the box, but Moyes can't understand that. The substitution against Swansea was a joke. It's time for him to move on. He'll never win anything anywhere in my opinion. He's just not got that winning instinct.

Clive, you wronker.

Clive, suppose that in a parallel universe, and completely out of Moyes's control, the same game produced just one notable exception (let's say: a flukey own goal that won it for us..) do you think, that the 'other you,' would still have submitted such a barking-mad assertion?

When I mention to friends of mine who support other clubs about the stick Moyes get from some of our supporters, they think I am winding them up.

The top 3 places in the EPL are pretty much bought and paid for. For us to be pretty much on a par with Arsenal, Spurs – and not too far of Chelsea, is pretty impressive, don’t you think?

It’s not a lack of ambition, it’s a lack or resources in an institutional setting that makes it near impossible for all but 3 (4 at a stretch) teams to hang on to any stars that shine.

What is it you actually want? We are 5th in the league, challenging for a CL spot. We are still in the cup and are playing good football.

We have limited funds, well being honest we have fuckall squared, so much so that QPR can easily out bid us. Fellow Evertonians I drink with can see that Moyes delivers where other managers would laugh at what we as supporters crave. We have given Spurs, Arsenal, the fucked up RS and Newcastle a run for their money for the past 5 seasons - and these teams spend serious money, money that Moyes can only dream of (of course Arsenal have the backing of 60 odd thousand fans each home game, paying around £62 each).

We should be at the bottom of EPL, with the Villa, as they are an identical outfit to us - no actually I think they spend more than us (22M on a striker). But you know what - our manager delivers, with probably the smallest squad in the EPL. Supporters like you really fuck me off with your out of context demands - win us a cup, win the fucking league, beat the RS home and away - with fucking what exactly?? Every season he delivers and if he goes then you will really be able to moan because no one else will give you the same return pound for pound.

May I suggest the Blackburn manager Michael Appleton.

Now, back in the real world.............................

It's great to be in the mix.

Sad to say, football has changed forever and you now have to be seriously funded to go after the silverware.

9 times out of 10 the monied clubs will win all the silverware and to be fair we have come close but but still no cigar.

Wenger “Never sees it”; Fergie is full of hypocrisy, and enjoys a good whine from time to time;

Rogers, first he doesn’t see it, then he sees it, then he condones it, then he essentially endorses it, and then when Suarez adds verbal clarification to what is well known to all, Rodgers spins around and says it’s unacceptable.

Aren’t we glad we have a manager who is dignified and consistent?

It seems to me that being moderately critical of David Moyes, as I have been, is unacceptable to some.

It is not "unfair," to point out the absurdity of that notion.

I simply characterised Clive's belief that "it's time for (Moyes) to move on," as "absurd," and "barking-mad."

There was positively no anger in either of my posts; simply befuddlement..and I object to the feint accusation of bullying that your post implies.

I know which decade I would rather have!

I have no problem with your view of Moyes, you have been fairly constant in wanting Moyes to fuck off.

Additionally, I have no issue with fellow blues airing their views, such as Clive, about Moyes being totally shite or inept, Everton not winning every single fucking game, and Moyes destroying any capable forward that enters the GP arena. Like I said I have no problem... BUT it is a rarity, I know boat loads of blues and I have never read so much shite as what Clive posted.

I have seen the late 70s, 80s and 90s so I can talk Everton to death, so believe me when I say that I have seen totally dross players, clueless managers and totally fucked up forwards earn their wages at GP. When I go to away games now, talking to the opposition supporters is always the same – Moyes is the man and Everton are a solid EPL team – a top fucking team.

If you can't see that Moyes has tried to move Everton up in the world, buying players that he feels will give Everton more control of the ball, then you need a visit to Spec Savers. This process has taken him some time, but then again, if you look at the money that fuckwit BK gives him, then it really is a minor miracle when you look at the team that Moyes has running out at GP.

Air your views all you want Andy but you really are out there on your own. The blues that I know love Moyes and love the fact that he is the manager of Everton Football Club – long may it continue.

I don't think Moyes is perfect, far from it, and I am happy to debates his merits and flaws, but when people talk about him as though he has been some sort of burden to the club, I find that hard to believe and give credibility to.

Between Arsenal and Chelsea this Sunday, which do we need to drop points? Maybe a draw would suit us – really not sure. And of course needing Man Utd to do a job on Spurs…..
Ohhhh, it’s so nice to have to think about these things. Beats the shit out of the typical concerns of the 1990s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Everton_F.C._managers

Your typical concerns... would that be something like going to Arsenal and hoping we didn't get too much of a hammering (i.e. something less than 4-0 which seemed to me to be the average in that period) so that our goal difference at the end of the season wasn't too bad? Mostly because that was almost like another point which could have been crucial in keeping us up.

That kind of thing was my overriding impression of that decade.

I don’t not hold the lack of silverware against him, because I appreciate both the financial and institutional constraints under which he operates. Since Bosman, and since the selective entry of large foreign capital… football management is a different game.

It was the same point, probably badly made.

The mention of Arsenal and 1990s in the same post reminds me of old feelings of worry about just how much closer a bad beating would have pushed us towards the relegation trapdoor. Footballing wise at least, a trip to Arsenal these days has nothing like the same trepidation attached. We should have registered more wins against them in recent years, including the game where the most outrageously lucky last minute equaliser for them cancelled out a sublime Steven Pienaar goal.

I was agreeing with you.

I hope that my views are not so entrenched that I cannot recognize good stuff when it happens or admit to being wrong. I agree with Clive about Jelavic. Moyes has of necessity been wary of luxury players. Perhaps we can now carry one.

Second, you say things that are not opinion OR true. "We have given Spurs, Arsenal, the fucked up RS and Newcastle a run for their money for the past 5 seasons" is just simply an obscure fantasy. Go here - http://www.soccerstats.com/ - and compare the last five years. You'll find that we've beaten Spurs and Newcastle a couple of times and Liverpool once in that timeframe, which isn't "giving them a run for their money.

And third, you measure every Evertonian with the yardstick of people that you drink with. That's gotta be the first time I've ever heard of a group of people drinking together agreeing on something.

I've pulled back a little on calling for Moyes to be sacked, but will continue to criticise the man when he fucks up – that's part and parcel of the job he is in.

Patience is not the word needed here. Patience will do what exactly? We have 16 games in which to qualify for the ECL or we're fucked. I'm not patient, calm or willing to accept failure. You guys might be, but I'm not.

Me, I started 84. First 4 years spoiled by success. And then the slide, really hitting home when being humiliated against Villa away on live TV, when live TV in Britain was a rare treat, not the wall-to-wall stuff now. Battered home by QPR, Norwich. Relegation battles from 93 onwards. Getting to 40 points started long before Moyes. Joe was a temporary blip, and Walter got one or respectable finishes. This brings us up to date. Moyes's record in comparison to the previous is where I think Mike will be coming from.

John Moores sacked managers for being nearly men, with a famous quote. That Everton expects. John Moores made us the Merseyside millionaires. We aren't that any more, we are lions led by donkeys.

Many have asked the question, "And replace Moyes with who, exactly"? and the names put forward over the past couple of years, Mark Hughes, Holloway, Coyle, even Alardyce, FFS, have done nothing but enjoy their 15 mins of fame in the spotlight before getting sacked. And, in Hughes's case, squander shedloads of money at City as well as lose any respect us Blues may have had for him by his shameful comments to Moyes over the Lescott affair.

As for the comment about giving these teams a "run for their money", we HAVE given them a good game at different times; Arsenal were only saved by two deflected goals in a performance described by Wenger as exceptional and Newcastle were not even in the same division as us at one stage. And we've beaten Spurs, Arsenal, Newcastle but not with the regularity that we'd like. But just look how much they've spent... Level playing field? Probably not.

That old chestnut the anti-Moyes brigade just love trotting out, you know the one I mean, that we've not won away at these grounds, well, that's a bit of a bummer, but at least we're still in a position to play these teams. Without Moyes's appointment 10 years ago, we'd be another Notts County/Forest by now.

I can just see the headlines: "Everton Manager Quits After Very Angry Post on Toffeeweb. In a related development, Everton Chairman, Bill Kenwright, announces he is prepared to sell his controlling stake in the club for a nominal £1....." .

The fact that Everton FC has to pay this money in wages to players in order to obtain a top 6 finish is ludicrous and shows how badly the game is managed by all those involved in the PL.

Don't forget that the football served up until 12 months ago was pretty crap for the most part and getting players motivated in a way that reflects their incomes shouldn't be that difficult.

Only time will tell how things will go, but Everton FC cannot carry on paying high wages with little chance of glory and neither can the rest of the PL teams, it's no wonder the banks won't extend credit when this madness is going on. It is also little wonder that few people are willing to buy our club whilst this madness continues.

The point of all this is that, whether Moyes stays or goes, the situation won't change that radically for the foreseeable future — even if we manage CL qualification, it will only give us a little breathing space before the demands of the players outstrips our capacity to pay them.

Patience is the order of the day, not just for the coming months but for the coming years.

I think when you look at aggregated league positions over the last few years, it’s not incorrect to say we have given Spurs and Newcastle a run for their money. Spurs have piped us most times, but not all times. And we have piped Newcastle most times. Now what’s the difference between us and them? They are loaded, we are not, have spent tons of cash and plough through more than their fair share of managers, whereas we are much poorer, and have stuck with the same manager. How generous of you to pull back a bit from asking for Moyes to be sacked.

You want to talk about opinions and facts? Well, Fact: we are a financially rag-tag outfit, who, under the stewardship of a great manager who has previously qualified for the most prestigious club completion in the world, and are again this season knocking on the door of the competition. Plus it’s even harder to do now because Man City have lessened the available spots.

I saw my first match in 1954 – Oldham away in the old second division – so I've seen the lows as well as the highs.

I'd love to see us fielding teams with the all-round qualities we showed in the sixties and the eighties; but it ain't gonna happen – not in my lifetime anyway – so in the meantime, I'll settle quite comfortably for football (and results) of the quality that I saw during 2012.

If that means that I'll be patronised by the Roman Sideys of this world – bring 'em on!

Optimal (optimistic) path for EFC:

• Consolidation (defined to be CL qualification 1 in every 3 seasons) with 5th place finishes in-between.
• Limited progress in the CL, the odd time getting past the group stages, but in the times we have a half decent CL run, we will probably have a poorer than average domestic performance.
• Use CL presence to clean up our finances, and attract the sorts of players who what to play in the CL, but know they be squad players in Europe’s larger teams. Build from their…..
• Build on that, and hope some investor recognizes our consistency and buys us.

A more likely path, could be average finishing of 5-6th (if Moyes stays, but gets no finance, this IMHO is most likely). Without Moyes, I would worry for our club. Not that the end would be imminent, but that in may be like the 1990s again…… maybe worse.

Sadly, as well as we are performing on the pitch, it is the club's accounts that really indicate where we are as a football club in the big picture. And we are somewhere in the middle of the Premier League.

Aston Villa in 2011 had a wage bill of £80m, so I would suggest that Moyes gets good value in the transfer market and the wages that we pay... probably why the chairman is prepared to pay him £4m a season. A team like Villa would have been better giving Moyes £4m a season, cutting their wage bill by £20m and finishing consistently in the top 8. Their loss, our gain.

Moyes is pound for pound the best there is. What we don't know is, could he achieve success if he had the wage budget or the transfer power? Hypothetical question as Bill has neither.

£48,900,267 in season 2011-12
£49,062,411 in season 2010-11.

A total of £97,962,678 for the two seasons.

I hope that Moyes can strengthen cheaply in the transfer window, it is one of his qualities as a coach. By the way, I would describe Roman as a moderate sceptic, like myself. There is no MOB now.

If I was at a match in 1954 that makes me at least 59.

I wasn't talking about third or fourth place, in the 60s and 80s we almost took that as given.

You can describe Roman any way you like, I'll stick with my opinion, if that's OK with you.

The reply of a gentleman.

I'll maintain my stance; but will respect your opinion.

Be cool mate. As I said, I will listen to any blue talk about Everton. Clive, and I guess yourself, have your opinions and yes, these are the days when you have to listen to people and take on-board what they are trying to say. Maybe my first response was hard, and that is a maybe!! So Clive, you be cool too and if you felt offended – I apologise. Unfortunately Roman, 20 or 30 years ago you did less listening and made your intentions perfectly fucking clear.

However Roman, the issue I do have with your post is the reference to the people I drink with. These Roman are fellow blues, not some drunks spouting shite about Everton, not piss-heads Roman, they are hardcore Everton supporters. To us Roman Everton Football Club is a religion - full fucking stop. So going forward, leave any reference to the people I drink with out of your posts.

Moyes!!! He is the current manager of Everton, live with it. As with everything in life Roman, pastures new lie ahead, so for now enjoy the footy that Moyes puts on show. Go to Goodison, if you have kids – take them, it’s a cracking day out.

Because of finances, I mostly nowadays see Everton on TV in the company of Man Utd and Liverpool supporters. This season, I don't feel patronized by their praise because we can beat any of them.,

As a matter of interest, Mike, when you're having a drink with fellow blues, what would be the biggest cause of contention?

You didn't say this Ian, but others have made it clear that because they've supported longer that they are the only ones who deserve an opinion. Well, not unlike my jibe about non-UK supporters being just as important, how the hell are we supposed to grow if some supporters treat new-comers as less? For the hundredth time, I didn't have to choose to support Everton.

Mike, I wasn't having a go at you mates, I was simply saying that if you measure how every supporter should be based on your mates, then that's a very uniformistic way to view how people should support a club.

I have older mates who are less bothered. As long as it gets them out the house on a Saturday, a couple of pints, away from being nagged at. They've seen the cup finals, they've seen the league trophy won. They've seen the highest high, and they've seen the lowest low. They've spent a fortune following the blues.

Me, I followed us through the shit times. Port Vale, Stockport, Bradford, Tranmere, Shrewsbury, defeats at home to QPR, Norwich, battered by Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City away, relegation scraps countless times, failed big signings, the loss of any decent new hero and endless grief from Liverpool and Man Utd fans. That's my Everton, and when we win I love it like a drug.

'Moyes said: “Maybe chairmen like that are a dying breed because there is probably an old-fashioned type relationship when managers were managers and chairmen were chairmen. “The new ones coming in now follow a bit more of a foreign system.

“These owners look to employ their own people to make decisions regarding players and how the club is run. “But Bill very much allows me to run the club, make decisions as far as I can make them and it’s worked well for Everton.”

Perhaps mischief making by our local rivals looking to destabilise us as they are beginning to catch us up?

"'Awwy" was interviewed on TV yesterday lunchtime, and said that he didn't know how much QPR were paying Loic Remy.

I can't imagine the Moyesiah not knowing how much he was paying any of his squad.

I think being a newish supporter is part of why I have such a make-or-break level of acceptance. In 10 years I haven't seen us win a trophy or kick on from a promissing position. I've seen my team in Australia break 32 and 20 year title droughts, missing several opportunities in between those to win, and know of the ecstasy and relief when that win finally comes. The one thing, though, that was never present, was patience.